September 18th, 2012
03:28 PM ET
Newly revealed Coptic fragment has Jesus making reference to 'my wife'
By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
(CNN) - A newly revealed, centuries-old papyrus fragment suggests that some early Christians might have believed Jesus was married. The fragment, written in Coptic, a language used by Egyptian Christians, says in part, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife ..."
Harvard Divinity School Professor Karen King announced the findings of the 1 1/2- by 3-inch honey-colored fragment on Tuesday in Rome at the International Association for Coptic Studies.
King has been quick to add this discovered text "does not, however, provide evidence that the historical Jesus was married," she wrote in a draft of her analysis of the fragment set to appear in the January edition of Harvard Theological Review. The divinity school has posted a draft of King's article to which AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University, contributed.
"This fragment, this new piece of papyrus evidence, does not prove that (Jesus) was married, nor does it prove that he was not married. The earliest reliable historical tradition is completely silent on that. So we're in the same position we were before it was found. We don't know if he was married or not," King said in a conference call with reporters.
"What I'm really quick to say is to cut off people who would say this is proof that Jesus was married because historically speaking, it's much too late to constitute historical evidence," she continued. "I'm not saying he was, I'm not saying he wasn't. I'm saying this doesn't help us with that question," she continued.
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In the accounts of Jesus' life in the Bible, there is no mention of his marital status, while the accounts do mention Jesus' mother, father and siblings. The four Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - tell the story of Jesus' birth and early childhood then skip to his short, three-year ministry before detailing his death and resurrection.
The idea that Jesus was married is not a new one.
In other writings about the life of Jesus from antiquity suggest Jesus may have been married to Mary Magdalene, a disciple who was close to Jesus. Author Dan Brown also used the idea of Jesus being married as a jumping off point for the fictional novel "The Da Vinci Code." King dismissed that notion in her call with reporters.
“There’s no indication we have that Jesus was married,” said Darrell Bock, a senior research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. “One could say the text is silent on Jesus’ marital status is because there was nothing to say.”
Initial dating for the honey-colored fragment by the team of scholars puts the papyrus piece coming out of the middle of the second century.
King is referring to the fragment as the "The Gospel of Jesus' Wife" or "GosJesWife" as a short hand for reference, and noting that the abbreviation does not mean this scrap has the same historical weight as the canonical Gospels.
Biblical scholars often use the term gospel to refer to a genre of ancient writings featuring dialogue between Jesus and his disciples, King notes in her paper. The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Judas are just a few of the ancient accounts about the life of Jesus that Christians do not consider canonical.
At the conference, King said another professor suggested the fragment could have come from the text of a homily, or sermon, where the writer was using this phrase as a literary device. She told reporters that while she will consider that as a possibility, the fragment is “probably a gospel. Probably from the second century and most close to the Gospels of Mary, Thomas and Philip.”
Bock agreed with the notion that the text fragment shared similarities with those gospels, called the Gnostic Gospels, which were the writings of an early outlier sect of Christians. He said the text could be referring to a "gnostic rite of marriage that is a picture of the church and Jesus, not a real wife."
But he added, "it’s a small text with very little context. We don’t know what’s wrapped around it to know what it’s saying.”
Bock said it’s likely to be a gnostic text if it proves to be authentic. “The whole text needs vetting. She’s doing the right thing to release it and let scholars take a look at,” he said, adding “it’s a little bit like trying to analyze the game in the first quarter.”
“It’s a historical curiosity but doesn’t really tell us who Jesus was,” Bock said. “It’s one small speck of a text in a mountain of texts of about Jesus.”
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The owner of the fragment has been identified by King as a private collector who has asked to stay anonymous. The owner brought the fragment to Harvard have King examine it in December 2011.
King then brought it to the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. Roger Bagnall, the institute's director and an expert on papyrus, examined it and determined it to be authentic, Bangall confirmed to CNN.
Ariel Shisha-Halevy, professor of linguistics at Hebrew University, Jerusalem, who was asked to examine the authenticity, according to the draft of the article, told King via e-mail, “I believe - on the basis of language and grammar - the text is authentic. That is to say, all its grammatical ‘noteworthy’ features, separately or conjointly, do not warrant condemning it as forgery.”
Little is known about the origin of the text. Because both sides of the fragment have writing on them, King said it could have come out of a book rather than a scroll.
"Just like most of the earliest papyri of the New Testament and other literary and documentary papyri, a fragment this damaged could have come from an ancient garbage heap," the King says building on prior research by Luijendijk.
King writes "the importance of the 'Gospel of Jesus’ Wife' lies in supplying a new voice within the diverse chorus of early Christian traditions about Jesus that documents that some Christians depicted Jesus as married."
The Smithsonian Channel also announced Monday that it will air a special on King's findings on September 30.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
قال الله تعالى:
(يَأَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاّ الْحَقّ
إِنّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىَ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مّنْه
ُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لّكُمْ إِنّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَه
ُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لّهُ ما فِي السّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأرْضِ وَكَفَىَ بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً)
[سورة: النساء – الأية: 171]
[4.171] People of the Book, do not exaggerate
your religion. Do not say about Allah except
the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus son of
Mary, is only a Messenger (and Prophet) of
Allah, and His Word (Be) which He gave to
Mary, and a (created) spirit by Him. So believe
in Allah and His Messengers and do not say:
'Trinity.' Refrain, it is better for you. Allah is
only One God. Exaltations to Him that He
should have son! To Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and in the earth, it is sufficient
that Allah is the Guardian.
No offense Mohamed Ramaden but the God of the Muslims is also the God of the Jews... the father of Abraham.
Look at wisdomv how he excuses himself when addressing Mr. Mohamed... you make my laugh..... this is what we call in this world wussssy and having fear....
Not saying you should curse him, not reason too. but no need for all the politeness as you commented on everyone elses opinions with out saying "no ofense" see what i mean Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuck you Zafiro!
believe in JESUS before he returns. I am going to pray that he comes into your dreams and reveals himself to you that you and your family will be saved. I am praying now. GOD BLESS you
@Doc Paul and Horace did you notice that I used the word of GOD to try HELP you verses useing bad language and saying things to hurt you. This is what a DISCIPLE of CHRIST stands on. The word of GOD, not how i feel or am i having a bad day. You to could of had this peace . GOOD BYE
Tim, you write like an eight-year old. Go back to school or get a grownup to help you.
@Timothy – I don't recall using any foul, or even abusive words; unless you consider disagreeing with you, based on solid evidence, as being hurtful.
You chose to condemn me, sir; not the other way around.
As for using "God's word" – please enlighten me as to how you determine what is, and is not "god's word". and is that not based on YOUR perception? There is no "god's word". Only words written by mere mortal men.
If crucifixion was good enough for jesus, why not good enough for real or fake Chads.
Are they sure he wasn't saying, "Take my wife. Please!"?
Oldest Jewish joke in the book...
ZION with man, Jesus’ Wife= His Reality with God added to mans conscience, (RIB of ADAM=reality in brain) and bride is the Pure, righteous, undefiled immortal eternal church body of Living Christ Bodies, CHILDREN OF ZION, CHILDREN OF GOD!
“Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the LORD your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, And He will cause the rain to come down for you— The former rain, And the latter rain in the first month.
Also the sons of those who afflicted you Shall come bowing to you, And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet; And they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel
One must become more righteous and pure than the ones that gathered and wrote the bible, in order to understand it in both a spiritual and then a physical understanding, of the creational relationship between man and GOD.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
The Universe we know and All that’s in it is the kingdom of God and it’s heavens are within Him that we know and accept that is truth and can live in Him with Him in Us, so is it mirrored to create and live in us according to our collective conscience faith collectively believed and known as truth. All of this believed to be truth in the Universe is, on the inside of man’s brain and body and how he creates his own DNA/RNA of life in and around himself. For the Kingdoms of Heaven is within man.
1 Corinthians 12:12
[ Unity and Diversity in One Body ] For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
Psalm 45 The Glories of the Messiah and His Bride
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Lilies.” A Contemplation of the sons of Korah. A Song of Love.
Revelations 21: 9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Blessed are those that come to the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, The Conscience reality of being One with Jesus and God, not one with the reality and destiny mankind believes in. You are the wife of Jesus. His reality, water, blood, Father, Spirit, Power and conscience added unto, around and within, You when You become one, mind body and soul by entertaining His righteousness in His reality of living Christ frequencies of light compressed into form, not perishing frequencies, but eternal living light within and around as the Garden of Eden and Paradise of God around and within You, ALREADY! John 17.
Oh, stop the bullshit already.
How did they fit all that on that little piece of papyrus???
God created Adam and Eve WITH genitals, and they did not use them,
What idiocy. God did not create Adam and Eve with genitals. There's no evidence of them until Genesis 4.
guess "Chad" isnt quite as unusual a name as I thought..
what scripture do you cite to support the claim that Jesus was formed with out genitals?
Thou hast eyes, but can not see…
John 13:23 – Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. John 13:22-24
John 19:26 – When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! John 19:25-27.
John 20:2 – Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. John 20:1-3.
Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea. John 21:6-8
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? John 21:19-21.
The "beloved disciple" = John.
"John" did not write that gospel attributed to him. It's speculation that the Beloved Disciple is John.
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? The evidence in support of Johannine authorship is overwhelming...it was only called into question in the 20th century with modern theological liberalism.
Well, let's see...
On April, Seventh, Seal ended his relationship with the White Horse he'd been riding for a number of years...Guess that Seventh Seal is broken for good...
Jesus had a wife...so the main, rotten ridgepole – if you want to call it that – of the Catholic Church is also broken once and for all...
Anyone know what happens next?
Prayer changes things, for the better!
Prayer does nothing but waste time.
Better for fools to cut their tongue than lash at the truth and anger the very God who will give you or take away your salvation.
Jesus did say also " Search the Scriptures for in them you will find me" why did he say this? Because it is JESUSCHRIST WHO WROTE THE BIBLE. For animals too say men wrote it shows zero understanding of anything above animal.
What fools! Jesuschrist has been God, the Son of God, since the foundations of the world, in the Beginning HE WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS GOD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. The Word...is Jesuschrist.
In Mount Sinai when Moses came face to face with God, the burning bush????anybody know it??? that was Jesuschrist talking to Moses!!!
In the dessert when all the Hebrews wandered away from Egypt, and thirsty began to yell for water, it was Christ, yes JESUSCHRIST who was the rock that Moses 'hit' instead of touched and out of it life givig water came for all to quench their thirst.
We are in the last days people, and the more you deny the only one true King of this Universe, the more you stampede and tread over and blaspheme and use your tongues to bring out only satanic crap, the more you will have to give account for all you think pervertedly and for all the words you use to deceive and manipulate othrs into the lie, will have to give your life to what the Judgement upon you will bring you. Forever damnation.
Jesus was clear, very clear, " if the world hates you, it hated me first," ' because you are not of the world, but have been chosen out of the world, for this reason the natural man thinks its foolishness" " it is foolishness to them that perish".
DENY HIM AND YOU SHALL PERISH FOREVER....cry all you want on this stupid unbieliving websites full of murder, strife, lies, and deception. All those who hate Jesus will be joining Satan soon. No questions.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind if filled with falsehoods and errors – T. Jefferson 😉 You don't know what Jesus said. You weren't there. The Gospels were written after his death. No one really knows what Jesus said.
Oh how venomously Christian of you. " By their fruits ye shall know them..." well, yours is certainly rotten!
Yay! I love circular logic!
How do you know God exists? because the Bible says so.
Well, why believe the Bible? Because it is the word of God.
How do you know God exists? Etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum
Good times for all involved!
Lara like they say you can not teach donkey anything.. so you done your part of letting them know. One day they will be there and will sit infront of god, he will say no excuse you were told about me at CNN blog... sorry no second chances.. you had plenty... =)
if i had a nickel for every time someone erroneously invoked the "end of days" over the past 2000 years i would be a very wealthy man.
Your bible is full of things about being deceived, right ?
So how do you know if the bible wasnt realy written by Satan
himself, and you have been fooled into worshipping the wrong god ?
Its all right there in your book.
You are going to die, and stand before God during the judgement
and God is going to say.........I did not write that book.
You have been deceived, you are going to hell.
Now, with that in mind,
go back and read the bible again.
You just might see it differently this time.
God reads the CNN blogs? Shouldn't he be smiting someone over in the Middle East?
There are several references in scripture to the bride of Christ being the church. The bible is silent on whether or not he had a wife. I don’t personally believe that he did.
I don't personally believe that Christ was divine, nor that the Christian god exists.
Any god would be able to at least have his own web presence and get with the friggin times, not expect us to believe some creaky old book of tall tales that has had so many re-writes and re-mis-translations. Any creature that expects us to believe the bible is just not worth the name 'god'.
Its funny how all the little sheeply people listen, follow, believe whatever is fed to them thru media.... O well you can curse or make fun of me all you want, really i dont even know you all and if i did do not care.
Have a bless day you all sheeply people. May god forgive your ignorance. =)
Bye, chao, Adios!
Don't join them. Let the foulness come from their mouths not yours. "Father, forgive them for they do not know" Jesus
One who does not know how the appropriate use of the word "bless", as opposed to "blessed", ought not to be lecturing about ignorance.
realbuckyball, thanky you for calling me ignorant. I still love you though and still my earthly brother...
Send you a big hug and smile so you can let go all the anger, fustration and whatever your going thru...
HAVE A BLESS DAY... lol....
The bible is also a source of "Media".
Yet, you follow that blindly.
@Zafiro: it's "ciao", you stupid git. That's just ONE of the many idiocies you've committed.
Just as Adam did not have se.x with Eve prior to the fall, Jesus who is perfect has never had se.x. Se.x.ual relations are a sign and a consequence of the fall of man.
Maintaining that Jesus had a physical relationship with a woman, let alone had a wife, is absurd.
How do you know Jesus never had sex? Were you there?
So the Magic Apple from the Garden of Eden imbued Adam and Eve with genitals?
I suppose they otherwise would have reproduced via binary fission?
guess "Chad" isnt quite as unusual a name as I thought..
1) what scripture do you cite to support the claim that Jesus was never married? (as far as I know, the bible is silent on that subject)
2) what scripture do you cite to support the claim that "Se.x.ual relations are a sign and a consequence of the fall of man.?
Spoken like a virgin who couldn't get a woman to have s-x with him even if he paid for it.
Or maybe God would have done some more cloning, using spare bits and pieces from Adam again
"absurd" is a strong word, is it not? After all was Jesus not supposedly fully man? Was He not capable of s.ex?
You and you saviour jesus probably opted to be hermaphrodites so you could fvck your brains out at will. Your posts indicate that you do so on a regular basis.
Then you're arguing tgat God never intended for humans to reproduce, right?
So...let me get this straight, genius. God created Adam and Eve WITH genitals, and they did not use them, until they LATER got in trouble, (supposedly), by USING FREE will, and NEVER wondered why they HAD genitals. YOU ARE ONE SICK DUDE. So god intended they never procreate ? You are so fvcking delsional, you are BEYOND help.
Spoken like a person who didn't have a real argument.
"Se.x.ual relations are a sign and a consequence of the fall of man."
so when god said 'go forth and multiply' he was actually being insulting and telling them to 'f*** off'?
and how is jesus perfect? didnt he lose his temper with the money lenders in the temple? sounds imperfect to me.
Christianity has always had problems with sex.
reproduction is a sign of the fall of man? wow......
I know that Jesus is perfect. He could not be perfect and have se.x.ual relationships. This is elementary information about Christ. Why don't atheists ever just pick up a Bible and read?
Because there is nothing believable in the bible.
No Chad, maintaining that Adam and Eve were real people is absurd!
S-x is a natural, fun, and great activity. Anyone who thinks it is evil (as Chad does), says so because it makes them feel better about the fact that no one wants to do it with him or her. Those are just facts.
Without s-x my children wouldn't be here. To call having children the downfall of man is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Pretty sure it's actually the opposite.
God created Adam and Eve WITH genitals, and they did not use them,
What idiocy. God did not create Adam and Eve with genitals. There is no evidence of them until Genesis 4.
Chad my theological reasoning to support your position is thus: Adam was made in a perfect likeness as was Eve. Since like begets like, if they had children, those offspring would have been perfect and have no need of a Savior and Husband. That would have disqualified them to have the chance to be the Bride of Christ, which would be grossly unfair to a human.
So...your god made a man and a woman, male and female, and made them with full sexual organs, but never intended for them to have sex?
@Chad "I know that Jesus is perfect. He could not be perfect and have se.x.ual relationships. This is elementary information about Christ. Why don't atheists ever just pick up a Bible and read?"
@Chad "kind of strange having a discussion with another "chad" 🙂
in any case..
What scripture do you cite to support that claim that s ex is a sin?
Similar reasoning can be applied to the concept of s e x in Heaven. Imagine being born there and immediately thrown out!
@HAVE MUD WILL TRAVEL "my theological reasoning to support your position is thus: Adam was made in a perfect likeness as was Eve. Since like begets like, if they had children, those offspring would have been perfect and have no need of a Savior and Husband. That would have disqualified them to have the chance to be the Bride of Christ, which would be grossly unfair to a human."
@Chad (not the one that started this thread, another Chad).
"Adam was made in a perfect likeness as was Eve"
"Since like begets like, if they had children, those offspring would have been perfect"
=>no, there was the fall in between, their eyes became open and capable of distinguishing between good and evil(which was not possible prior to the fall). That capacity was transmitted to their children who also sinned (as we all have)
so, Adam/Eve prior to the fall had no need for a savior. After the fall they did.
Anyone else think that Chad has finally lost it, and is now arguing with himself? In any event, it should be fun to watch two christian fundamentalists duke it out.
Hmmm, so your god only wanted blind obedience in the beginning. Thanks for clearing up how immoral your belief system is once again.
@hawaiiguest "Hmmm, so your god only wanted blind obedience in the beginning. Thanks for clearing up how immoral your belief system is once again."
=>sort of, but not really
"blind trust" would be completely accurate.
If God truly wanted blind obedience, He wouldnt have provided the ability to choose to be disobedient..
and.. I'm not the "chad" that started this thread.. never thought there would actually be two "chads" ... 🙂
@Chad "What scripture do you cite to support that claim that s ex is a sin?"
That claim was not made. Until Genesis 4 there is no mention of se x ual relations and so no evidence of genitals.
@Chad "That claim was not made. Until Genesis 4 there is no mention of se x ual relations and so no evidence of genitals."
=> God has a penis. Adam was made in the image of God. So Adam had a penis. right?
So if s-x is not a sin, your entire argument that Jesus couldn't be married (having s-x) and perfect is a lie. Do you see how you caught yourself in your own lie?
One thing I do know. Lying is definitely a sin.
"Anyone who thinks it is evil (as Chad does), says so because it makes them feel better about the fact that no one wants to do it with him or her. Those are just facts."
Not that I agree with Chad at all, but those are not "just facts." There are many reasons to think ill of s.ex, regardless of virginity, e.g. disease, environmental impact, social disruption of promiscuity, etc., however, that was not my point.
My point was that you were making logical fallacy by attacking your opponent instead of attacking their argument, which is called an Ad Hominem fallacy.
"Without s-x my children wouldn't be here." irrelevant
"To call having children the downfall of man is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Pretty sure it's actually the opposite."
Actually, he didn't say that. He said having children was the result of the downfall of man, not the cause, quite a difference.
Look, I don't necessarily disagree with what I think is your point, but claiming someone is wrong just because you think they are a virgin, is a stupid, i.e. illogical, argument.
Consider the following:
"Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. The he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” (Mark 11:12-14, NIV)
As a result, the tree withered from the roots (v. 20).
Now, a few things are clear from this episode.
Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit until he went up to the tree and found nothing but leaves.
When Jesus saw leaves from a distance he hoped to find fruit on the tree.
It was not fig season, and this is why the tree had no figs. This comment from Mark clearly, implies that it was a perfectly good tree. If the tree was barren, Mark’s comment about the season would have been pointless and misleading.
Jesus did not know it was not fig season. If he had known this, he would not have expected the tree to have fruit, and he would not have cursed the tree for having no fruit.
The whole thing began when Jesus felt hungry.
It is easy to understand that the human Jesus felt hunger, and that the human Jesus did not know it was not fig season and so mistakenly expected the tree to have fruit. A perfect, divine Jesus would have known all these, and would not have to go to the tree to discover it had no fruit; he would not have been hungry in the first place.
How on earth can anyone assume that God has a penis?
Gee could have fooled me. Listen or burn for eternity doesn't promote blind obedience. How deep and profound.
The sin nature as well as Salvation is on the male side of the equation. If Jesus had children they would not need a Savior and be disqualified from being the bride of Christ. Not fair to a human.
For a picture of Christ, consider the Ark of the Covenant, made of wood, yet covered in pure gold. The wood is the fallible human flesh, the gold the infallible spirit of God.
@Chad(not the one that started the thread) "What scripture do you cite to support that claim that s ex is a sin?"
@Chad (the one that started the thread) "That claim was not made. Until Genesis 4 there is no mention of se x ual relations and so no evidence of genitals."
I dont usually argue with fellow believers, but in this case I would point out that there is no scriptural evidence that Adam changed physically as a result of the fall (by adding genitalia)
most importantly, there is really no scriptural evidence anywhere for "s ex is sin", scripture endorses marriage and procreation.
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
– 1 Timothy, 2:14
"Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die"
– Ecclesiasticus, 25:19
Calvin described women as
"... more guilty than the man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading all to perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame."
@Jen "So if s-x is not a sin, your entire argument that Jesus couldn't be married (having s-x) and perfect is a lie. Do you see how you caught yourself in your own lie?"
=>its a bit confusing, there are two "chads", the one that started the thread, and (me) who responded to it.
Chad (the one that started the thread) thinks s ex is sinful
Chad (the responder to the thread) does NOT think s ex is sinful
Chad (the responder to the thread – i.e. me 🙂 ) also does not think that Jesus being married presents and theological difficulty whatsoever. Scripture is silent on the issue. I tend to think that He wasnt, as He knew he was heading to the cross and His wife would have been a widow, but that is speculation on my part. I dont really know.
Robert Brown at 3pm, I think you are thinking of the military or the boy scouts. Christians have God on the inside. You are exactly backwards and I don't care how anybody tries to dress up the flesh. It's futile.
God was for s.ex. "Come all ye faithful..."
chad at 306 sayz, '.....Scripture is silent on the issue.....' Look again.
@HAVE MUD WILL TRAVEL "chad at 306 sayz, '.....Scripture is silent on the issue.....' Look again."
@Chad (not the one that started this thread, the responder) "look where?"
doc at 305, step back one verse:.....'1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.'..... Adam had more time in grade on the planet. He could just as well have told God, 'Put me back to sleep. Please do it again.' It's all conjecture. The point is Adam was held responsible, the sin or not sin is passed from the male side, otherwise Salvation falls apart. I agree with Gen 3:16 and the backups in the NT. Ecl is written from man's point of view. View it with wisdom.
If women are capable of passing along the sin nature, then Jesus was a sinner and God got corrupted by His own creation!
That's where the vicars messed it all up by elevating Mary to a status she never claimed. Look up every word she is quoted as saying.
That's where the vicars messed it all up by elevating Mary to a status she never claimed. Look up every word she is quoted as saying. .
@HAVE MUD WILL TRAVEL "If women are capable of passing along the sin nature, then Jesus was a sinner and God got corrupted by His own creation!"
@Chad (not the one that started this thread, the one that responded)
"I dont think sin (condemnation) is passed down like a virus or some congenital defect.
We all choose to sin
We are condemned only for our sins, not the sin of our fathers.
we can differ, but that's my interpretation.
Then the fall means nothing to you, and women should not have pain during child birth, and men should never have to till the land to grow food, and baptism is a useless practice in your interpretation.
If sin is not a choice how can we reasonably be condemned for it? 🙂
1) That in no way addresses my post
2) I don't believe in sin
3) Eternal condemnation for a finitie "sin" is an unjust and immoral system, as is eternal reward for holding a specific belief instead of a totality of actions taken, and the innermost part of a humans morality.
If you don't believe in sin why do you ask about baptism?:-)
Gettinf ahead of yourself?:-) 🙂
'Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'.......The clock in your cells was set to only divide X amount of times. That's death. Deserved.
This is Chad the responder, not Chad the originator of this thread
I thought for a moment that perhaps the originator was a real "chad" not a sockpuppet (most likely TTTOO)
so, in any case, I'll let the sockpuppet take it from here as to not confuse everyone (I took pains to identify myself above as the responder to the thread, not the originator)
so, carry on TTTOO!
@Chad (Whichever one is responding to me)
So are you saying that unless you believe in something you cannot discuss it? Also, ignoring my points doesn't make them go away.
Jesus was a man.
He may have been perfect, but i doubt he was castrated.
You should read more about biology and less about religion.
You may find that Jesus took a leak just like the rest of us.
You can remove him from that stool now.
IN THE BEGINNING... men with a lust for power and control created a fictional being to scare the masses into submission. What started as political ploy evolved into a mental entrapment that would become an industry unto itself. This "being" would be the cause of wars, murder and much more down through history. Men would not turn away from it although it had no historical support or scientific evidence to support it. Centuries later men say they see visions and are instructed to continue the story. They themselves haviong forgotten one of the first laws that was recorded... thou shalt not lie or bare false witness.
Christ is not fictional.
YOU ARE AFRAID TO BELIEVE. YOU WANT TO CONTROL YOUR LIFE AND IT SCARES YOU TOP THINK THAT THERE IS A GOD AND HE IS IN CONTROL.
@sean: Careful, that would be a statement of fact. If you continue to make statements of fact regarding your beliefs, I will be forced to demand supporting verifiable evidence for your claims. I am sure that you understand that without verifiable evidence, your claims are invalid.
Just trying to help you out........
Which other people form history do you not believe existed? If there is a written record, which there is, then would it not be a fact?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not fictional. You can even taste his noodly goodness, and he has real substance and comes typically with thick garlic bread, not like those measly thin communion wafers that the cheapo Christians hand out. Those wafers don't even hold cheese well.
"Christ is not fictional."
Mohammad is not fictional either.
Joseph Smith is not fictional either.
L. Ron Hubbard is not fictional either.
It is the supernatural assertions attributed to them that are the unverified part.
Sean, there are no written records about Jesus existing. There are stories about a magical hero that supposedly died decades before the stories were written. Those aren't evidence of the existence of a non magical man.
donna – look up Suetanuis and Pliny the younger – If I am remembering correctly these two Roman officials wrote about his activities during his lifetime.
Sean, You remember incorrectly. If you want to make a claim like that, use actual evidence.
Early man worshipped the Sun.
Somebody came along and changed it to SON, and it has
been all down hill since.
JESUS SAID OF THE ORGANIZED RELIGION OF HIS DAY: YOU ARE OF THE FATHER THE DEVIL, FROM THE BEGINNING HE WAS A LIAR, IF YOU WERE OF GOD YOU WOULD KNOW ME, AND WOULD RECOGNIZE MY WORDS, BUT SINCE YOU DO NOT, I TELL YOU YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL.
MORMONISM IS NOT TRUE CHRISTIANISM EITHER.
Only those who believe in Jesuschrist being the everlasting God of Salvation, will be saved. Mormons believe that Jesus is not the Savior or the Son ofGod as do other satanic religions. THis is why in an effort by satan to destroy credibility to Jesus, he created religions, many false gods. God the Father said to identify false sheep and ravenous wolfes by their fruits (you shall know them) do figs spring forth from thorns and thistles? no. Furthermore the only Holy Scripture on earth states clearly: test the spirits to see if they have come from God or not, if they say that Jesus is the Son of God they have God but if they deny they do not have God in them neither have they ever seen or known Him.
Many religions deny Christ. None of them are true. THey are the sandcastles of satan who devour millions by making them believe their religion leads to salvation. Christ said: Unless you are born again you will by no means enter Heaven. He said it to a religious priest. Nicodemus.
Let me guess...so YOUR Religion really is the one and only true religion.
There is much more to life than an ancient book that seeks to ensnare the mind. If this were not so the messiah would have already returned and this post would not exist.
Lara, this is Jesus (or however you guys are spelling it these days), your Lord and Savior. You need to stop putting words in my mouth. Any church made in my name is wrong. I believe I told you to go to your closets and pray. Stop dragging my name through the dirt.
Please google "no true Scottsman fallacy".
No points for you this round, but thank you for playing!
Lara, Amen.... god bless you for breaking it down. the funny thing is one day when they/those unbelievers encounter judgement they can never say, no one ever told me so... Yes it was done thru the blog of CNN...... =) no excuse. Busted!
"Many religions deny Christ."
As they should
"None of them are true"
They ARE true to their adherents.
"THey are the sandcastles of satan who devour millions by making them believe their religion leads to salvation."
And yours is the REAL ONE?
"Christ said: Unless you are born again you will by no means enter Heaven."
Many of us do not seek heaven, or fear hell, or give a steaming pile what your edited, translated iron age comic book says.
Zafiro: Your god is a petty, vindictive pr1ck. Now, b1tch, get back on your knees
Aborigine: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Evangelist: "No, not if you did not know."
Aborigine: They why did you tell me?
@Lara – You are simply blinded by your own self rightous beliefs and a religion I am quite certain was force fed to you from birth. Until you understand that NO religion existing on this planet is 100% correct you will remain blinded. I hope God grants you the ability to open your mind and rise above the pitfall you have fallen into (which is dangerously close to the WBBC)..just sayin'
I don't really care if Jesus was married or not... It doesn't change my faith. He was a man (human) and he died when he was what 32-33. It doesn't change the message he left behind of love and forgiveness, there have been many great wise men throughout the world and history not all of them were perfect and Jesus lived as a man among us I am sure he made mistakes and learned what was important to teach his followers what really mattered.
It just makes his message no more than anything Confucious, Socrates, or even Dr. Phil said. The self-help section at your bookstore is full of the wisdom of married men.
Except that he was all man and all God at the same time.
Geez, you people are deluded. You seem unable to think at all.
It's hard to be married when you most likely never existed.
There are records of his life not to mention he left behind a religion that has lasted for two thousand years.
The Greek/Roman pantheon was around for a much longer time and there were plenty of "records" for the existence of those gods as well...
There are records of the Roman gods walking the earth and spreading their message?
For once I agree with Jesus. Yes there are plenty of records of Greek and Roman gods walking the earth. It's called mythology. The Bible fits into that class as well.
"There are records of his life not to mention he left behind a religion that has lasted for two thousand years."
1) No extra-biblical records that I'm aware of.
2) No contemporary records.
3) So he started a religion. So what. If, in 2000 years, scientology is still around, does that make it true?
Even then, the question of whether he existed is worthless. The real question is, what evidence is there of his supposed miracles in the bible? The answer: Absolutely none.
Amin stated that he didnt exist which is incorrect. If you want to argue about what he did and didnt do that fine. I am not normally willing to help people educate themselves who obviously are not willing to do the research for themselves. This may help lead you in the right direction. I am going off of what I studied at university and the spelling may be incorrect as it was a while ago. Look up Suetanuis and Pliny the younger they had written about Christs criminal activities during the era that he was alive.
What proof do you have, outside of the Bible, that "Jesus" existed?
Besides, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger were born decades after the supposed death of Jesus.
amin – look up the references provided they will lead you to other writings and references of Christ while he was alive. I recommend a university library and not the internet.
So your defense of the historicity of Jesus is a claim that you found your information in a university library (with no mention of any specific information), and two people writing about stuff more than 2 generations after the supposed death of Jesus.
Yeah.. the whole university thing... been there, done that. I'm a history major. There has been no conclusive evidence to support the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The evidence points to Jesus being a cobbled mess of pre-Abrahamic religious figures.
There are records of the Roman gods walking the earth and spreading their message?
There are records.
There is also carved statues of the gods.
How come there are no statues of Jesus ?
There are busts of Roman rulers in Jesus time
from Galile and Judea, yet NOTHING about Jesus.
You idiots post about how there was first hand accounts
from people who lived during the time Jesus walked the earth,
and not one of them bothered to sculpt or draw an image of Jesus ?
A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for a brighter tomorrow... today!
Or you can vote for Obama and send the world straight to the firey pits of hell.
Did you mean fiery? In any case, you can't go some place that doesn't exist. Unless of course you are talking about Hell, MI. Don't know about any "firey" pits there though.
I see that one of Mitts sons has nothing better to do.
Go tell your dad to look for a job.
You wont be moving to the White House.
JESUS CLEARLY SAID: 'YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT 'I AM' HE, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS'.
Jesus didn't clearly "say" anything. Men, after his death, made claims about him and what he said...
Horus, He knew in what direction to sling the parables.
Ahhhhhh...... threats of Hell. My personal favorite.
Why do you find it necessary to threaten others? Why don't you just prove that your god exists? Doing that would really help your argument, don't you think?
Lara: Spend a lot of time on your knees, do you?
Any argument that includes threats for not accepting the argument is weak....and those putting forth those arguments are pea brained nincompoops
No, some guy in the first century, writing under the name of "John", said that.
A small example of quoting people:
Who said, "Let them eat cake"?
Marie Antoinette, right?
Wrong. There is no evidence that she ever said such a thing, and it was most probably invented by Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
JESUS CLEARLY SAID.....
Did he say it in Hebrew or aramaic ?
Did you need a translator ?
How many other voices do you hear ?
Yes Jesus does have a Bride but theologically it's not what everyone thinks. Jesus in the scriptures speaks many times of His Bride but His Bride is not human but is the Holy Catholic Church (The New Jerusalem) who is the mystical body of Christ. Rev 21:2, Rev 19:7-10, Rev 21:9-10, Eph 5:22-33, etc.
Peace and Joy
Its not what you think??? Why do we always interpret Bible translations in ones favor? You have made the assumption that Bride means "Catholic Church" which I think is manipulating translation and plays on words.
I wouldn't go as far as saying the holy catholic church, over the Body of Christ. His people, is His bride.
Revelations was written by John of Patmos who never met Jesus??? The Same with Paul – he never met Jesus. How can you say these are quotes from Jesus? You can say that these two men felt Jesus told them this in a dream but Jesus did not expressly say these word while he was alive.
Jesus spoke to me in a dream also. I would quote him but I don't think you would like what he said about revelations.
Was there a Holy Catholic Church when Jebus supposedly walked the Earth? That's a big fat NO.
In other words, you're just talking out your 3rd point of contact.
Holy Catholic Church did not exist when Jesus died.
That shoots your story all to hell.