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September 19th, 2012
06:05 PM ET

5 questions and answers about Jesus' 'wife'

By Eric Marrapodi, Co-Editor CNN's Belief Blog
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(CNN) - Since the news broke Tuesday about a scrap of papyrus containing the line in Coptic, "Jesus said, 'My wife..' " questions have rocketed across the world about what this means.

We put many of the big questions to leading scholars, pastors and people in the pews to find the answers.

1. Why is this just surfacing now?

The papyrus fragment is thought by Harvard Divinity School Professor Karen King to be from the 4th century but could be a copy of an early gospel from the 2nd century. King said a dealer, who wishes to remain anonymous, brought the fragment to her to be translated and analyzed in 2011. The New York Times reported the dealer hopes to give the fragment to Harvard if they buy a large portion of his collection.

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On Tuesday, King presented her findings on the fragment to a conference on Coptic texts held in Rome once every four years.

In some ways, texts like this are not uncommon.

Elaine Pagels, a professor from Princeton University who is an expert on gnostic writings such as this one, noted to CNN, "You can find boxes filled with Coptic fragments." But what makes this one significant is for the first time, it explicitly has Jesus referring to "my wife."

King posits it may have come from a complete gospel she and her research partners have dubbed "the Gospel of Jesus' Wife." If that were true, Pagels said "that could make the fragment much more valuable if it were part of a gospel, but we don’t know that.”

2. How do they know this isn't a fake?

Authenticating documents is equal parts art and science. What researchers are trying to rule out is if this is a modern forgery. To do that, they look at a variety of aspects, including the age of the paper, the chemical composition of the ink and text itself. The authentication won't confirm whether the text is true but only whether the physical item is true to the time frame researchers think it is.

The document was examined by the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. Roger Bagnall, the institute's director and an expert on papyrus, examined it and determined it to be authentic, he confirmed to CNN. Ariel Shisha-Halevy, professor of linguistics at Hebrew University, Jerusalem, was asked to examine the authenticity, according to King. Shisha-Halevy said that based on the language and grammar, it was authentic.

Chemical tests on the ink are pending, King noted in a draft of her work set to be published in January in a peer reviewed journal.

Some experts in the field, including Pagels, suggest the fragment contains too little to be faked, suggesting that a forger would have included much more in the document to try and raise the value.

“We have to have more information about the fragment," said Douglas A. Campbell, an associate professor of New Testament at Duke Divinity School. He points to recent history when discoveries turned out to be fakes. “The academic community has been badly burned,” he said, adding that there is still much to be learned about the provenance of the document, "the history of where it came from and how they got it.”

“The anonymous donor thing is very problematic,” he said.

3. Does this prove Jesus was really married?

Short answer: No.

King herself was quick to point out in interviews that this piece of papyrus does not prove that Jesus was married. "This fragment, this new piece of papyrus evidence, does not prove that (Jesus) was married, nor does it prove that he was not married. The earliest reliable historical tradition is completely silent on that. So we're in the same position we were before it was found. We don't know if he was married or not," King said in a conference call with reporters.

The early consensus of other scholars we spoke to about this agree this document does not prove Jesus was married.

"Let's not neglect the fact this was written 300 years after Jesus' death," Hellen Mardaga, an assistant professor of New Testament at The Catholic University of America, told CNN. Mardaga says "the text may be real and not a forgery, but that doesn’t mean it belongs in with the Gospels.”

There is nothing in the Gospel accounts in the Bible and the earliest Christian tradition that speaks to Jesus being married.

"This is an aberration; this is something totally outside of any biblical tradition," said Jerry Pattengale, the executive director of the Green Scholars Initiative, which helps oversee one of the largest private collections of biblical antiquities.

"We know that tradition, or anything passed down, has a huge story to tell and there is a lot that can be learned from tradition that is linked to history. There is just no solid tradition for Jesus being married, so this is certainly an aberration and an important find," he said.

4. Would Jesus being married change Christianity?

Yes. Probably. But we'll never know for sure (see above).

Without getting too into the weeds theologically, it raises lots of interesting questions about how Jesus lived on Earth and what is not known about his life. For married couples, it also adds a healthy doses of mirth to the idea of being married to someone fully human and fully God, as the Christian creeds say Jesus was.

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"Had Jesus had a wife, I have no doubt he would would have treated her with the same dignity, respect and affection with which he treated his female disciples like Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany and Martha," Christian author Rachel Held Evans said when we asked her about this.

"Though I confess I think it would be a little unfair for a woman to be married to God incarnate. Kinda makes it tough to win an argument," she joked. "On the plus side, he turns water into wine ... which would be nice!"

5. So can Catholic priests get married now ?

This discovery brought the issue of Catholic clergy and celibacy to the forefront and got a lot of people wondering whether this would prompt the church to shift on this issue.

“At the time this (fragment) was written, we had a married clergy," pointed out Rev. Tom Reese, a senior fellow at Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University.

Reese said this discovery won't change Catholic teaching on the marital status of Catholic clergy.
"It has nothing to do with whether we have a married clergy or not. For the first thousand years, we had a married clergy. For the last thousand years, we’ve had a celibate clergy."

The celibacy requirement is based on church law, not doctrine, which is the core, unchanging beliefs of the faith. "The church can change this rule whenever it decides to change the law," he said.

For Reese, the Coptic papyrus fragment does not hold great weight for the future of the Catholic clergy.

"This is a nice academic footnote, but beyond that, it is not going to be all that important," he said.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Jesus

soundoff (1,438 Responses)
  1. Olivia

    Atheists are F..U..C..K..I..N..G retarded!!

    Period.

    September 19, 2012 at 11:11 pm |
    • Athy

      It's "fucking". And you're retarded for spelling it the way you did.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:16 pm |
    • Roberto

      Olivia, Olivia, Bless your little pea-pickin' heart. I'll bet you've seen angels, Jesus, God, the Virgin Mary. And had conversations with all of them. Well, now, time for you to go to bed and sleep tight. Tomorrow is another day. Don't forget to take your pills b'fore you snooze off. Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be retarded. Ok. I'll rephrase what I just said: Olivia, Olivia, Bless your little pea-pickin' heart. I'll bet you've seen angels, Jesus, God, the Virgin Mary. And had conversations with all of them. Well, now, time for you to go to bed and sleep tight. Tomorrow is another day. Don't forget to take your pills b'fore you snooze off. There now. Do I sound 'retarded'? For someone who's been through 18+ years of education and held jobs in advanced medical research for the past 30 years, I must be doing pretty good for someone who is 'retarded'. Please let me know how far you've advanced in the real world. I'd love to banter with you on the subject of religions and spiritualism. That would be...fun.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
  2. b4bigbang

    Bootyfunk "your answers show that god is cruel and not worth worshiping. letting children suffer when you can stop it is evil. stop sugar coating god/jesus' disgusting actions, helping people only if they person gets on their knees and kisses some @ss first. then they're worthy..."

    Your speech is the devils speech to the tee. He is called "the accuser" in the Bible. It says that he accuses constantly.

    September 19, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
    • Abdullah/Iraq

      You will burn in hell fire for not believe in one and truly God – Allah.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
  3. Abdullah/Iraq

    ()::::::::::::::::::::::)) (____|____)

    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ This is what atheists do 24/7 😀

    September 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • Pete

      (________I________) THis is a picute of Mohammed's face.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
  4. chazee

    I always thought he was gay.

    September 19, 2012 at 11:03 pm |
    • Oli

      Just like your daddy, right?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
  5. Here he comes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTaoLEhIbU8

    September 19, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
  6. Abdullah/Iraq

    Christians in the west are idiots for not forcing their religion into everyone and end democracy. This is the only way your religion will survive and grow just like Islam.

    September 19, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
    • 2357

      Faith is a gift, given to those who see beauty in the truth of Christ.
      Willful faith is a blind faith. Forced faith is a violation of the spirit of Christ, an abomination to God.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
    • Athy

      Faith is not a gift. It's a delusion suffered by weak-minded cretins.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:28 pm |
    • 2357

      Let me rephrase, faith is a gift to those who have it. To those who do not, it is unattainable love.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm |
    • Athy

      Believing in mythology is a gift?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:59 pm |
    • 2357

      Belief in a benevolent God who is a loving father, is the greatest gift you can receive in life. At death you will be joined with his gracious presence.
      If you think it a myth let me ask you, why do people tell stories anyway? We seem to be exceptional among organisms in this regard. And why do we tell lies, of all the possible stories?

      September 20, 2012 at 12:06 am |
    • Athy

      Man, 2357, you're thoroughly brainwashed, aren't you? What solid evidence do you have for your "benevolent" god? The warm fuzzy feeling you get when praying is not evidence.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:11 am |
    • 2357

      Look my dad was a jerk too, so what. Why should that make you put his ugly mask on God? If God is good enough to taste the suffering of losing his child, to prove how much he wants my trust, that's goodness to the maximum. There's no greater pain than watching your child die. It's actually worse than dying yourself. I'd choose death if it would save my kid from losing a limb. Anyway. God is the meaning of love, don't trample his offering.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:42 am |
  7. Here he comes

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTaoLEhIbU8&w=420&h=315%5D

    September 19, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
  8. Shannon

    Believe it or not; My grandpa was one of the most militant atheist you could ever think of. When he was diagnosed with Cancer at age of 75, he converted – started to pray and died as Christian.

    This will happen to 99% of atheists when they get sick or close to death guaranteed. Keep that in mind!

    September 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm |
    • Athy

      Where did you get the 99% number? Did you do an extensive poll? Do you have a reference to credit? That's the trouble with you bible babblers. You come with unfounded bullshit all the time.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • End Religion

      Shannon,

      How twisted you are to support an organization that professes love yet gains most of its members through fear and intimidation. You people are like ambulance-chasing lawyers. You hang around pre-schools and hospitals to convert the uneducated and terrified.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:52 pm |
    • End Religion

      Shannon,

      Your grandpa was old, si.ck and scared, and likely out of his mind on me.ds, so he hedged his bet by converting at the last moment. What absolute hogwash that you find any merit in that game. Heaven seems to be full of the most awful people who mur.der, r@pe and pill.age then convert near death.

      At a time when grandpa should have spending every breath talking and enjoying his family to the extent he could, he instead wasted it on deluded mumblings to an imaginary superhero.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
    • Roberto

      Was he buried, cremated or did he donate his spirit-vacant remains to medical science? I'm curious. Did he come back and visit you and tell you you'd better believe in Jesus or you're gonna burn in hell? My grandpa died a believer and I haven't seen or heard from him since. Same goes for my other grandpa, my two other grandmas, my Mom, Dad. All of them were believers. Didn't convert from atheism, they didn't. So, I guess I'll burn in hell. God! Boy, he's some kinda grand being! Has the finger on the trigger for all of us, doesn't he. So much for grace. Sounds like you religious types have a monopoly on mankind. B'bye. Thanks for flying Earth Airlines. Hope it doesn't get too hot for ya'! Whew! Let me know when you come back and tell me how things are. Last I checked, ain't nobody bounced back and given a report.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
    • 2357

      Many people who have had near-death experiences resume life in devout religiosity. The ones I've seen on YouTube went straight to church looking to learn about Jesus. I have yet to see one where they dismissed the afterlife and became atheist. Some of them were dead for hours. Apparently millions go through this each year. Utterly fascinating.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:13 am |
    • Athy

      Millions? Where did you get that figure? And when does drifting in and out of conciousness pass as a near-death experience?

      September 20, 2012 at 12:21 am |
    • 2357

      Wikipedia of course. Some 18 Million living today actually,if I remember correctly. Lemme look it up.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:29 am |
    • 2357

      Ok 8 million Americans according to Gallup. It says it's probably underestimated. Small percentage overall, but still a lot of people there and back. The stories are killer tho, no pun. Reeal freaky stuff, I tell you. Watch them alone in the dark!

      September 20, 2012 at 12:36 am |
    • Athy

      There is no "there and back". It's just the stressed brain creating dreams or nightmares as it drifts in and out of consciousness. I've experienced the same thing while undergoing anesthesia for surgery. No "going over to the other side" here, just a natural phenomenon. If you're a whacko religious nut it would make perfect sense for you to read more into it than there really is.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:06 am |
    • 2357

      Recollect able experiences and outer-body perception while there were no consciousness or measurable neural activity. Many of these are in ICU settings surrounded by medical professionals who have seen it all. I love reading the stories. Many of them didn't want to come back.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:16 am |
    • 2357

      http://iands.org/distressing-near-death-experiences.html
      Check out the stories. Ttyl. Gn.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:20 am |
  9. Dr. Donnel Johnson

    IT GEEK ALERT

    "Duh" is an IT "professional" who thinks networking and internet security is the end all of careers.

    These dorks are a dime a dozen. I used to teach them how to pass their silly MCSE, Network+ and DBA exams.

    If I am reading this one correctly, he thinks Microsoft is the devil, still uses Unix and loves his Mozella. In other words he lives in the past and is jealous of people with real carears.

    Hey Duh, go open of Lotus Notes and watch people's IP addresses, that is just SO cool...if you are a 13 year old geek. Do you have anything to add to the conversation? Of course not.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm |
    • Dr. Donnel Johnson

      Now if I may before I was so rudely interrupted by "Duh" the computer dork:

      Jesus never actually said he believed in God. In fact, if you read the Bible you will learn that Jesus actually believed in what he called, "The Divine".

      What does this mean? Jesus, while inarticulate and a bit clumsy in general, had an excellent grasp of the fundamentals of the Native Americans call, "Mother Earth" and what it is to be a "Human Being".

      How do we know this?

      Look at the teaching of Jesus on the Gnostic literature that relates to being reborn as a Snake, a Lizard, a Spider. Why did Jesus fell he was reincarnated? And why these animals and insects? That is easy if you ready the Gospel of Mary.

      Mary had many pet names for her lover (yes, it is in there) and among them were Snake, Lizard, and Spider. Snake and Lizard I can understand, but the passages relative to Spider are less clear.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • Duh

      Yo Doc, showing your age pal. We changed terminology a while back now. I don't think Gates is evil. I use SQL studio occasionally but prefer Mysql and open source. As far as peep, I seemed to have touched a nerve, and yes, it is quite amusing watching how many users are from the same I.P. address. Says a lot now about the opposition, huh "Doc"?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:30 pm |
    • Athy

      Which of the three animals you listed is an insect?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
    • End Religion

      @MiamiVice'sDonJohnson:
      Before I begin, may I just say you are super stupid? OK, onward.

      "Now if I may before I was so rudely interrupted by "Duh" the computer dork:"
      Thanks for being the opposite of Christian. You folks continue to show the hypocrisy inherent in all religion.

      "Jesus never actually said he believed in God."
      Jesus said nothing. He very likely was simply the ravings of a mad man named Paul.

      "How do we know this?"
      We don't.

      "Look at the teaching of Jesus on the Gnostic literature that relates to being reborn as a Snake, a Lizard, a Spider. Why did Jesus fell he was reincarnated? And why these animals and insects? That is easy if you ready the Gospel of Mary. Mary had many pet names for her lover (yes, it is in there) and among them were Snake, Lizard, and Spider. Snake and Lizard I can understand, but the passages relative to Spider are less clear."
      Wow. So not only is it just laughable you've based your life on fiction but then you go further and make completely ridiculous leaps of illogic to place absurd world views on the fictional characters within your delusion. Man, you're in deep. And calling that excrement "gnostic literature" is like calling Cat In The Hat "Doctoral Literature".

      September 20, 2012 at 12:19 am |
  10. New Yorker

    I never understand why nonbelievers choose not to believe in God. Last time I checked it's free to believe in God and nothing to lose on doing it. Nobody force you going to church, fast or practice your religion 100%. Just believe and SHUT UP without doubt about it!!!!

    September 19, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • Rusalochka

      Hhahaha your comment is hilarious. What does 'free' have anything to do with faith, religion or spirituality? It's free to be an atheist just as much as it is free to be a religious person.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:03 pm |
  11. Jacky

    I sometimes wish Christians were intolerant and blew themselves and innocent people off, burning embassy and killing diplomats for attacking Jesus like Muslims do about their Muhammad.

    Now people will say something that happened 1,000 years ago LOL.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:54 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Jacky,

      sounds like you answered your own question.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
    • Vic

      Remeber the inquisition-what the catholics did in the name of god.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
  12. In God

    God do exists. If he did not exist, why would majority of people throughout history believe in Him, even now in 21st century?
    God is strong and those who believe in Him will enter kingdom of Paradise.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      People also used to believe the earth was flat. Just because people believe it doesn't mean shit.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      why did people believe in zues? ra? odin? or any of the other 1000s of gods that came before yahweh?

      September 19, 2012 at 10:54 pm |
    • Jacky

      Now majority of people know Earth is not flat and still believe in God 🙂

      September 19, 2012 at 10:55 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Half of Americans still believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

      We have a long way to go before people will let go of bronze age mythology.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • Lexington

      ^ Proof us exact age of Earth and how it was created.

      Nopp, you can't. Come back to me when you know!

      September 19, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Lexington,

      feel free to 'proof' yourself. You'll need gunpowder and a match.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:11 pm |
    • Foghorn Leghorn

      God do not exists.

      September 20, 2012 at 10:01 am |
  13. Cal B

    "GOPer" – "You spent most of your wife on the toilet". I make plenty of misspells but that wasn't one of them.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Plenty of mispellings by me too – I didn't assume this was unintentional, even though it looked that way.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:49 pm |
    • IrishinToronto

      It seems to me that god's hand is at work here!

      September 19, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
  14. David Justian

    Having a wife raises implicitly the issue of whether there were children of the marriage. I think I've read that book somewhere, though it wasn't a Gospel...

    September 19, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Handy Dan

      You've read nothing but the hom o's guide to gerbil removal.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:47 pm |
  15. Dillon

    Jesus' "wife" was a reference used frequently reffering to the Church

    September 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
    • Dillon

      The same as he was refered to as the "bridegroom" ie. John the Baptist' and Pharisees confronted his disiples as to why they did not fast and the response from Jesus was why would the bride and the wedding party fast while in the presence of the bridegroom? But He said there would come a time when they would and that time was His Passion. Christ is certainly the Lord and Blessed is His name. For love and praise of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen

      September 19, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Dillon

      *John the Baptists disiples

      September 19, 2012 at 10:45 pm |
    • Amen Brother

      Good point

      September 19, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
  16. Dean

    More irrelevant bull to add to an already irrelevant and burdensome myth.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      did you know there are unicorns, satyrs, dragons and c.ockatrice in the bible? oh my! also talking snakes and donkeys! man, that book gets sillier every time i read it.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Dean

      Suicidal demon-pigs? Those are pretty silly, too.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:49 pm |
  17. Muslim John

    In Islam Jesus Christ is a prophet and a messenger like Mohamed, Moses, Joseph, Noah, and Abraham. All the prophets share the same message of one God. As an Muslim I simply don't understand the reasoning behind saying:
    1. That Jesus Christ is God
    2. Jesus Christ had a wife
    Why would the Almighty God need a wife for?
    Regardless if true or not, how can the Unlimited Almighty God be divided into 3? Why not 5 or 10? T All the Abrahamic religions say there is only one God indivisible and unlimited. I read the Bible but I can't find the Trinity anywhere in it, so why do Christians preach and believe this concept?

    September 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm |
    • Answer

      Pure and simple... religious losers need an exit plan: either a form of salvation or a bubble of love.

      Can't live in reality because of the fear of death – they'll go with any piece of garbage and accept it. As long as it offers them some form of comfort to ease their lives. Being that pathetic they will accept and believe in anything thrown at them. It's even better if they can pay for it with some form of currency because their minds want the words to reflect the possibility of that guarantee in their mystical heaven.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
    • JT

      We cannot understand everything about God, and should not be discouraged. Our ways are not His ways.

      To the atheist: what's pathetic is believing yourself to be meaningless.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • David in Tampa

      Not all of us do.
      Jesus is not God. Jesus is not the only Son of God. Jesus is the only Son of God born of Man. There are Many Sons. The rest of them are pretty scary. (Genesis 6 1-4)

      Gabriel is an Archangel as is Micheal. The USA should not be concerned of Jesus. We should be worried about Micheal, and His angels. Very few in the USA follow the teachings of the Jesus. We have perverted the story, the teachings and the commandments to our convenience and comfort. None of this will work to obtain eternal life.

      Praise the Lord

      September 19, 2012 at 11:01 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      ... and pass the ammunition.

      I find that combination scary.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
    • citizen bob

      why are you using this blog to ridicule other people's beliefs?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
    • Mr Everyman

      One God reveals itself as Creator (Father) of everything, in Jesus (a son and the Son) through kindnesses teachings and raising Jesus from death and, continues as the Spirit. Was Jesus, the man, married? Marriage and children are certainly part of being fully human. There is evidence Jesus was married and had children but, it is not conclusive. Celibacy and marriage are not requirements of salvation. Salvation comes through the Awesome One, only. The Quran addresses Jesus as Messiah, Savior. Moses is not called a Messiah. Muhammad is not called a Messiah. Only Jesus does this service through the power of the Awesome One. Only Jesus is Messiah, Savior by will of the Awesome One Spirit.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm |
    • End Religion

      @jt: "To the atheist: what's pathetic is believing yourself to be meaningless."
      This illustrates Answer's answer. Religious people feel the need to be special. They have found that they can dodge reality and feel super special within the fold of religion.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:39 am |
    • End Religion

      @DavidInTampon: "Gabriel is an Archangel as is Micheal. The USA should not be concerned of Jesus. We should be worried about Micheal, and His angels."

      Again, the heart of religion. Fear, not love.

      ***
      "Very few in the USA follow the teachings of the Jesus. We have perverted the story, the teachings and the commandments to our convenience and comfort. None of this will work to obtain eternal life."

      Jesus didn't exist. The things he is purported to have taught are mostly barbaric. And then if you don't follow the barbaric laws you're threatened with waterboarding in a lake of fire for eternity. Its simply absurd. And David, you don't know anything special beyond any other human. Purporting that you know the true way and others don't is arrogant. But that's religion for you! Hypocrisy at its finest.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:45 am |
    • End Religion

      @NoWhereNearEveryman: "Was Jesus, the man, married? Marriage and children are certainly part of being fully human. There is evidence Jesus was married and had children but, it is not conclusive."

      There is no evidence Jesus existed, so there certainly isn't any he was married or had children.

      ***
      "Salvation comes through the Awesome One, only."

      And he dives right into the "my god is the only true one" statment, which every religious nutter professes. Just on sheer probability alone you'd think one of these kooks would be smart enough to at least back off a bit. Nope.

      ***
      "The Quran addresses Jesus as Messiah, Savior. Moses is not called a Messiah. Muhammad is not called a Messiah. Only Jesus does this service through the power of the Awesome One. Only Jesus is Messiah, Savior by will of the Awesome One Spirit."

      Hey Muslim John, this is where everyman is rubbing your face in the underarm of his smelly religion. "Only jesus"...
      What does the bible have to say, everman?
      1 Samuel 2:3 – "Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth."

      September 20, 2012 at 12:56 am |
    • Mr Everyman

      To End Religion: I am trying to answer Muslim John's questions about the revealtions of the One God as "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." He inquired about marriage. In Jesus, God demonstrated to mankind that he can experience everything a human can experience, including death. God is all-powerful. Since Muslim John says he is a Muslim, I indicated that thereis only one Messiah in the Quran, Jesus, not Moses, not Muhammad. Salvation is a function that can only be done by Elah, Allah in the Quran. Jesus was so completely focused on the Spirit that the Spirit lets Jesus function as one in Being and with us. I am not so arrogant to think I can accomplish my own salvation. I depend on God's revelation through Jesus.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:49 am |
    • End Religion

      @everyman: " I am not so arrogant to think I can accomplish my own salvation. I depend on God's revelation through Jesus."

      It is exactly what you are doing, orchestrating your own salvation. Religion is a falsehood. You're reading the entrails of pre-Bronze Age creation myths cobbled together into a "newer" myth, looking for meaning and a way to live forever.

      The sheer probability, amongst all the branches of belief in the world, that yours is the correct recipe is staggeringly low even if there could be "one". But it is that "one" path, divined through the chicken guts, you feel you're on. You have convinced yourself you're on the path to eternal life, hence you do feel you're accomplishing your own salvation. Your delusion is that instead of understanding you've orchestrated it, you chalk it up to an imaginary sky fairy revealing it to you.

      September 20, 2012 at 2:38 am |
    • Mr Everyman

      To End Religion: The "Imaginary Sky Fairy" you refer to is an internal moral guide or compass and also sets the order of the universe or universes. I have a more polite name, God. Elah is a spirit. Spirits are not physical or provable. You can be in harmony with the Spirit or out of harmony. Being out of harmony is sin. A human complaint has been that God iis so all-powerful and so universal that this Spirit is untouched and ununderstanding of human suffering and life. By belief, faith, this Spirit gave humans a demonstration. The Awesome One lived and died and rose again with Jesus (Isa in the Quran). Today, we would call the death of Jesus a clinical death with an out of body experience. Those who gloated, "We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus,....." killed Him not. He and two young men in bright white robes greeted Mary Magdalene, who had come to do burial work on Him. Crucifixion failed. Fifty years ago calling this a myth was possible. Today, the volume of evidence for this as history is better than proof of Aristotle or Caesar. I hope you, End Religion, and Muslim John come to see this Truth.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
  18. bob level

    That is blasphemy! Christians will rise up to kill her and burn her house down and kill a diplomat...Oh yea, that never happens.

    September 19, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      guess you don't own a world history book...

      btw, christian terrorists have shot abortion doctors in the back as they walked to their cars, the KKK is a christian organization with flaming crosses as their sigil and they've killed, here's some American Christian terrorist groups for you to look up: Christian Ident.ity, Christian Patriot, Lambs of Christ and Concerned Christians.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
  19. Bootyfunk

    Jesus didn’t like foreigners. A Canaanite woman wants Jesus to heal her sick daughter who is suffering terribly. Jesus tells his disciples he only heals Jews. He calls the woman a dog and won’t heal her daughter until she agrees that she’s a dog.

    Mathew 15:21-28
    21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
    22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
    23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
    24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
    25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
    26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
    27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
    28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

    hmmm, doesn't seem so loving to me...

    September 19, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Chad

      The message went first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles (non-Jew).

      September 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      yes, that's my point - Jesus himself says he came specifically to help the Jews. so Jesus chose who he helped based on race. the woman tells Jesus her daughter is "suffering terribly." and Jesus still won't help her because she's not a Jew. how exactly is that racist? only after he insults her race, calling them dogs, AND she agrees, does Jesus help her daughter. very very cruel.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:40 pm |
    • Dillon

      a test of faith

      September 19, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • Mushi

      He says this because he only grants miracles and wishes for people with faith. If you walked up to him and said "heal me." he would say no. You didnt confess any sins, ask for forgiveness, and show your faith. If you walked up and said "Lord forgive me, i have sinned and was given this sickness, please heal me, and forgive me of my sins." Guess what? youll be saved, forgiven, and healed.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:50 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      By pasting "28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment" you just shot your argument in the foot, dummy.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:52 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      btw, that goes out to bootyfunk...

      September 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      how terrible. because someone is born to another faith or doesn't believe exactly what you believe isn't a basis for whether they deserve help or not. the woman told him her daughter was suffering. but if the woman didn't have faith, he would have let her suffer and possibly die? yep, pretty damn cruel.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
    • Chad

      @Bootyfunk "yes, that's my point – Jesus himself says he came specifically to help the Jews. so Jesus chose who he helped based on race."
      @Chad "yes, although note that he changed His mind upon seeing the woman's faith (perhaps, there is another line of thought that He said that on purpose knowing that she would display her faith. In other words, Jesus didnt change His mind, He merely made it seem like He did to make a point about faith)"

      ========
      @Bootyfunk "the woman tells Jesus her daughter is "suffering terribly." and Jesus still won't help her because she's not a Jew"
      @Chad "yes.. perhaps, see above. But in general, God does allow an enormous amount of suffering, all you have to do is look around."

      ========
      @Bootyfunk " how exactly is that racist? only after he insults her race, calling them dogs, AND she agrees, does Jesus help her daughter. very very cruel."
      @Chad "racist? I would say no
      God has ALWAYS distinguished clearly between Jews and Gentiles, but there was a distinct purpose to that (Jews were the delivery mechanism for the Messiah).
      Gods end goal is always eternity, not the here-and-now, what often looks cruel to us has a purpose (much like slapping the hand of a child that is reaching towards a hot plate, not that I slap my childrens hands, but you get the point. Corrective behavior isnt always appreciated by the person being corrected)..

      September 19, 2012 at 10:55 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      @bootyf:
      1. You're preaching that God id somehow obligated to be nice to people and do good things for them
      Nope.
      2. Your condemnation of God is moot anyway, seeing as how you don't even believe he exists.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      your answers show that god is cruel and not worth worshiping. letting children suffer when you can stop it is evil. stop sugar coating god/jesus' disgusting actions, helping people only if they person gets on their knees and kisses some @ss first. then they're worthy...

      September 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      @bigbang
      1) i'm pointing out god is as much about hate as he about love
      2)your belief in god is irrelevant because god is imaginary.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:04 pm |
    • Chad

      @Bootyfunk "your answers show that god is cruel and not worth worshiping. letting children suffer when you can stop it is evil. stop sugar coating god/jesus' disgusting actions, helping people only if they person gets on their knees and kisses some @ss first. then they're worthy..."

      @Chad "God is most definitely not cruel.
      The issue is pure love on one side, free will and disobedience on the other.

      Take 10 minute this evening and read Genesis 2 and 3 (what do you have to loose, worst case you have a little more understanding of the bible and you can bring that to bear in your arguments).

      Genesis 3:21 is one of the most powerful verses in the bible to me.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:04 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      b4bigbang

      Bootyfunk "your answers show that god is cruel and not worth worshiping. letting children suffer when you can stop it is evil. stop sugar coating god/jesus' disgusting actions, helping people only if they person gets on their knees and kisses some @ss first. then they're worthy..."

      Your speech is the devils speech to the tee. He is called "the accuser" in the Bible. It says that he accuses constantly.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:08 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "The issue is pure love on one side, free will and disobedience on the other."
      you have the mindset of someone that beats their children and tells them it's for their own good.

      god drowned millions in his flood - men, women, newborn babies, children, invalids, the physically handicapped, the mentally challenged, elderly, all plants and animals - EVERYONE but a single family and 2 of every animal. but that's not cruel right? that's just pure love. filling a baby's lungs with water is love. how can you justify such blatant evil?

      September 19, 2012 at 11:12 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      @b4bigbang
      lol. i love when xians tell atheists they are agents of the devil. hahaha. lucifer and yahweh are both fictional characters living only in your imagination.

      September 19, 2012 at 11:14 pm |
    • Chad

      "... filling a baby's lungs with water is love. how can you justify such blatant evil?"

      =>the end goal for God is eternity, not this time we have on earth

      Humanity cant be reformed or improved, it can only be atoned for..

      This life we have may seem extremely long, especially for those that have a hard one, but believe me, it's ephemeral.

      Take 10 minutes and read Genesis 2 and 3

      September 19, 2012 at 11:18 pm |
    • b4bigbang

      Hey bfunk, seeing as how you believe God isn't real, then why do you rant almost daily about nothingness?
      And puhleeeze don't pull out the old chestnut about how all those xtians muredered all those innocen folk hunders of years ago
      Bleck...

      September 19, 2012 at 11:34 pm |
    • redzoa

      I'm always amazed how those defending the direct and indirect slaughter of children depicted in the Bible justify the abhorrent behavior. Here, the cruelty and suffering is wholly disregarded even though an omnipotent deity could have employed any means without the unnecessary suffering. To argue free will as justification is ridiculous. As there was no possible way a child or infant or fetus or embryo could have "chosen" evil, a "pre-emptive" judgment prior to any conscious choice effectively destroys free will. Omniscience itself destroys free will because there can be no choices made which contradict a perfect foreknowledge of the one ultimate forthcoming reality.

      The common rebuttal is to argue something like, "you can't judge God using human logic, reasoning, morality, etc" but this is precisely what is required of any interpretation, particularly so of apologetics. By this line of reasoning, they must concede that their conclusions of God's inherent goodness are equally susceptible to flawed human logic, reasoning and morality lest they claim for themselves the infallibility they would attribute to their preferred deity. Alternatively, they'll employ some variation of a Nuremberg Defense, attempting to abdicate any personal responsibility for evaluating the morality of their preferred deities acts and demands, but rather "pre-suppose" any edict emanating from their preferred deity is inherently good. If God orders murder, it is good. If God orders not to murder, it is good. There can be no moral arguments supported by such a self-contradictory framework invoking the pre-suppositional arm of Euthyphro's Dilemma. Worse still is the transparency of this defense based on the laughably contrived juxtaposition of threats of eternal punishment alongside promises of eternal reward. "Well, Dr. Mengele was my superior, he seemed to have a good reason for his experiments and so who was I to question? Besides, in helping out I received bonus pay and perks whereas refusing to comply with his orders would have resulted in my being executed as a traitor."

      Perhaps the real "test" of scriptural accounts of child murder are not of blind obedience, but to distinguish those who would abdicate personal moral responsibility in their attempts at justification from those who simply and rightly condemn child murder without exception.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:01 am |
    • End Religion

      @dillon: "a test of faith"
      wrong. racism.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:01 am |
    • End Religion

      @mushi: "He says this because he only grants miracles and wishes for people with faith."
      The lesson is not "you need faith", the lesson is that in addition to being cruel he also felt there was a hierarchy of races, and that it was acceptable to deride a poor old lady in need of help

      September 20, 2012 at 1:06 am |
    • End Religion

      @chad: "God has ALWAYS distinguished clearly between Jews and Gentiles, but there was a distinct purpose to that (Jews were the delivery mechanism for the Messiah). Gods end goal is always eternity, not the here-and-now, what often looks cruel to us has a purpose"

      And there we have an argument FOR racism. Stay classy, Christians.

      September 20, 2012 at 1:09 am |
    • End Religion

      @Chad "God is most definitely not cruel."

      Genesis

      And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. - 22:2

      And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. - 22:10

      And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. - 38:7

      And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. - 38:10
      Exodus

      If thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.–4:23

      For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast.–12:12

      At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.–12:29

      The LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast.–13:15

      The LORD is a man of war.–15:3

      He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.–21:15

      Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.–22:18

      He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.–Ex22.20:

      And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.–22:24

      Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about. - 29:20

      Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.–31:14

      Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.–32:27

      And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.–32:35

      September 20, 2012 at 1:17 am |
    • End Religion

      @b4bb: "Your speech is the devils speech to the tee. He is called "the accuser" in the Bible. It says that he accuses constantly."

      If he's constantly accusing, when did he have time to teach Robert Johnson how to play guitar down at the crossroads?

      September 20, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • End Religion

      @chad: "Humanity cant be reformed or improved, it can only be atoned for.. "

      Humanity hasn't improved since the Inquisition? That was what you consider humanity at its best?

      September 20, 2012 at 1:24 am |
    • Chad

      @End Religion "Humanity hasn't improved since the Inquisition? That was what you consider humanity at its best?"
      @Chad "No it hasnt, think of the Holocaust.

      Humanity was at its "best" in the garden, since then it's just been evil, there was never a "good" time.

      ======
      @End Religion "...And there we have an argument FOR racism. Stay classy, Christians...."
      @Chad "preserving the Jews as a vehicle for the Messiah is not racism.

      racism
      1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
      2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
      3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

      =======
      @End Religion "Genesis And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. – 22:2"
      @Chad "you need to remember, God always has eternity in mind, the plan is for reconciliation.

      September 20, 2012 at 10:33 am |
    • End Religion

      @chad: "Humanity was at its "best" in the garden, since then it's just been evil, there was never a "good" time."

      OK, now I'm clear on your position. Since the "garden" is fiction, humanity is only ever at its best when we imagine it so. And in this scenario, somehow, humanity is thus only at its best when there are 2 people involved in it. They must wallow in ignorance to sustain this "best" of humanity. Humanity is only at its best when we're forced to slave away for someone else, as Adam was to work the garden for god. Apparently its also best that we're in a state of hallucination so that animals may speak to us.

      Evangelicals question adam and eve...
      http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/138957812/evangelicals-question-the-existence-of-adam-and-eve

      ======
      @chad: thx for racist definition. It proves that was the case, since jesus likened the entire race of the pleading woman to dogs.

      =======
      @End Religion "Genesis And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. – 22:2"
      @Chad "you need to remember, God always has eternity in mind, the plan is for reconciliation.

      Hoping for reconciliation does not excuse cruelty. You stated god was not cruel. I gave you god's "own words" not only showing many instances of his cruelty but his pride of it. Your supposed god is wantonly cruel.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
  20. LOL @ Atheism

    haha atheists keep lying themselves... life's short! You will meet God soon and believe me he will NOT forgive you!

    September 19, 2012 at 10:24 pm |
    • Answer

      Keep dreaming of that heaven.. keep dreaming.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      i get to meet gawd? shweet! i think i'll ask him why he was such a D.I.C.K.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:28 pm |
    • IrishinToronto

      ...and YOU will meet Isis soon – and she will be very, very angry with you!

      September 19, 2012 at 10:28 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Come back, when you can prove it.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • bob level

      You said "He" will not forgive. So you actually think that if there is an all powerful deity, that it has a penis? Hahahaha...

      September 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm |
    • Athy

      Bring it! I can't wait.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm |
    • Peter Grenader

      I'm not an atheist, although i have huge problem with organized religion for the reason you just gave: speaking editorially on behalf of God and mocking people in the process. We don't know if Jesus was married, we don't even know if God's a man or a woman, but one thing we're all sure of – you're not God. So please keep your mockery to yourself, K?

      September 19, 2012 at 10:37 pm |
    • IMHO

      Being dead is just like what life was for all of you 200 years ago. Nothing. I cant understand why people think that just because you are born, you start this eternal journey. Humans only.. animals and bugs dont belong to our club. Sorry. They have no way of asking for forgiveness.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:39 pm |
    • Scott

      "You will meet God soon and believe me he will NOT forgive you!"

      If heaven is filled with Christians like you, I willingly choose hell.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:41 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.