By Arielle Hawkins , CNN
Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.
From the Blog:
CNN: Priest embroiled in ivory smuggling controversy
A priest known for his collection of religious art is under investigation for possible involvement in the illegal ivory trade, according to a Philippine law enforcement agency. Monsignor Critobal Garcia was quoted in the October issue of National Geographic directing a reporter to ivory carvers and traders, and also dispensing advice on how to smuggle the banned item into the United States.
Tweet of the Day:
[tweet https://twitter.com/MariamVeiszadeh/status/251241084158611457%5D
Belief on TV:
Enlightening Reads:
The Guardian: Wells Fargo believed to be victim of cyber-attack over Innocence of Muslims
US banking company Wells Fargo is believed to have become the latest victim of a cyber-attack launched by a group pledging retaliation for the controversial Innocence of Muslims video that has triggered anger and violence across the Muslim world. A group calling itself Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Cyber Fighters has claimed responsibility for the online attacks on US banks in protest against the online video. The attacks were launched last week under the name Operation Ababil, meaning "swarm", and have already affected banks including JP Morgan and Bank of America.
Religion News Service: Poll: Obama surges ahead among Catholic voters
President Obama’s support among Catholic voters has surged since June, according to a new poll, despite the Catholic bishops’ religious freedom campaign and the naming of Paul Ryan, a Catholic, as the GOP's vice-presidential nominee.
Huffington Post: Mona Eltahawy Arrested For Spray-Painting Anti-Jihad Subway Poster
An Egyptian-American journalist was arrested in New York Tuesday for spray-painting over one of the controversial anti-Jihad subway posters produced by the American Freedom Defense Initiative. The New York Post captured a video of award-winning journalist Mona Eltahawy defacing AFDI's ad with pink spray paint, while another woman attempts to stand in her way. The other woman, who identifies herself as Pamela Hall, asks Eltahawy, "Mona, do you think you have the right to do this?" To which Mona answers, "I do actually. I think this is freedom of expression, just as this is freedom of expression.”
The Chicago Tribune: Voter ID laws fire up South Side pastor at Obama's former Chicago church
Though President Barack Obama's former church on Chicago's South Side wants to avoid the political limelight of four years ago, the church has been rolling out a campaign to make sure minorities, senior citizens and the poor overcome any obstacles standing in their way at the polls this year. The Rev. Otis Moss III, senior pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, has invited ministers across the nation to find and register thousands of young voters before the Oct. 9 deadline. He also has urged them to take up collections for cash-strapped voters in states requiring the purchase of IDs and stage a 24-hour prayer vigil on Election Day.
The Guardian: The Sikh woman who stood up to online abuse about her facial hair
Earlier this week, an unidentified man surreptitiously took a picture of Ohio State University student Balpreet Kaur and posted it on Reddit, in the Funny section, with the caption: "I'm not sure what to make of this." Implicit in his words was the invitation that we all gawp at Kaur because she is a woman who has facial hair. Kaur, a student of neuroscience and psychology, was unaware that her picture had been taken until a friend mentioned it on Facebook, by which time her looks, outfit and turban were all being mocked anonymously on the internet. With a humbling display of maturity, Kaur joined the thread and explained: "I realise that my gender is often confused and I look different than most women. However, baptised Sikhs believe in the sacredness of this body – it is a gift that has been given to us by the Divine Being (which is genderless, actually) and [we] must keep it intact as a submission to the divine will."
Join the conversation…
CNN: Reid calls out Romney on their shared Mormon faith
The nation's highest ranking Mormon in elected office said Monday that Republican presidential candidate is “not the face of Mormonism.” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Democrat from Nevada and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, made the remarks in a conference call Monday, according to the Salt Lake Tribune. “He’s coming to a state where there are a lot of members of the LDS Church,” Reid said about Romney coming to Nevada. “They understand that he is not the face of Mormonism.”
Does anyone know where to get those Romney / Ryan action figures? Romney / Ryan 2012
You will get all the action you deserve when Romney is sworn in. No more qu- eers, atheists and perverts influencing America. Romney / Ryan 2012
Prayer changes things
Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs^!.
I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded. The degree to which your assertions may represent correct statements is 0.0. To help you understand the degree to which your assertions may represent correct statements, I will access my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE). Using my IEE module, the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent correct statements is: "TOTAL FAIL".
I see that you repeat these unfounded statements with high frequency. Perhaps the following book might help you overcome this problem:
I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
by the Alzheimer's Disease Society
...
Topher, my first post was pretty self explanatory. I have never committed any sins. We do not need to list them one at a time. If it is considered a sin I haven't done it.
I think you are lying.
If you can't prove it then It must be true.
I see a lot of folks on these boards talk about love...about how God loves his children, or how we are meant to love one another, how love changes someone....And it occurs to me that love is such an intangible thing, so difficult to describe...
So my questions to all of you are:
1) What is love?
2) How do you experience love?
3) What is the greatest expression of love?
And yes, I realize these are vaguely esoteric questions and different folks from different faiths will have different answers...that's actually kind of the point.
Also? I would prefer answers from your heart rather than quotes from others/books.
Love is what makes you feel guilty when you act in your own self interest
The greatest expression of love is killing your wife and feeding her to your children when they are starving.
I'll answer No. 3. ... It is what God did 2000 years ago. You see, we've all sinned (lied, stole, blasphemed, looked with lust). That's who we are. And while God is a loving God (He doesn't want us to go to Hell), He's also just (meaning He must punish the lawbreakers.) Throughout our lives we accrue a fine/penalty that we just cannot pay. He realized this and so paid it for us on the cross. Have you ever read about the punishment He took even before being nailed up to the cross? He was slapped, punched, spit on, had His beard ripped out, tied up and had skin and muscle torn from His body, had thorns pressed down into his scalp, struck on the head, had his blood-soaked and dried robe pulled off Him reopening wounds ... then at the cross had nails pierce each hand and his feet, had his shoulders dislocated ... and have you read how being crucified actually kills you? You basically suffocate as your own body weight squeezes the life out of you. And just to make sure, a Roman speared Him in the side, likely piercing His lungs and heart. All of this torture was done so that YOU could be seen as clean and be able to walk out of God's courtroom. There you have it. The greatest act of love the world has ever seen. John 15:13 ... "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
@Topher
That's disgusting. Plus I'm allergic to all that cr ap. Give me something unscented, please.
@Topher,
How exactly does killing Jesus pay for my supposed "sin"? Is scapegoating really justice?
Yes, it is disgusting that He had to go through all of that. Think about it. He did it even though He knew we'd still rebel, we'd still sin against Him. But it was the only way to satisfy God's wrath.
1. What is love? Love is a condition in which your personal happiness is dependent on the happiness of another. If I know that my wife or mother or brother is unhappy I desire to make them happy. Bringing them joy brings me joy.
2. How do you experience love? As a desire. A desire to make my love's world better. A desire to provide for and to protect my love. A desire to make sure that my love can fulfill her dreams.
3. What is the greatest expression of love? To know and understand someone exactly as they are and to accept and love them unconditionally. Then to help them become the person they want to be.
Love is a burning thing
@toph: have you even once studied how someone dies from being crucified?
1) can't put nails through the hands weight of the body would cause the person to rip them out.
2) can't put nails through the feet because again weight of body would tear them free.
3) if a person was so severly beaten and tortured BEFORE being crucified due to blood loss they wouldn't be able to yell out, they would be too lathargic due to this.
4) death while being crucified is mainly due to asphyxiation, in other words they suffocate. yet again no screaming out anything; if you have ever passed out due to lack of oxygen it takes only moments for a person to lose conciousness, thus again NO SCREAMING anything.
5) dislocations were known to happen due to constant attempts to either relax pain in shoulders/back or relax pain in the legs, after a few hours the person would reach physical exhaustion and just hang there until the died from lack of oxygen.
studies were committed to see the effects of being crucified; the test subject was only able to stay up there for a few minutes before they started having problems breathing and had to be brought down.
so the story of "jesus" being crucified is a falsehood, basic logic dictates the whole story is make believe for the believers to fear punishment and feel sympathy for "their" savior sacrifice.
it's nothing more than a play on human emotions.
ME II
Good question. Say you are in court for a crime that you committed. And they've got you. There's no question you are guilty. Your sentence is a fine so large you'll never be able to pay, so you'll have to go to jail. But before they drag you off, someone comes in and says "I'll pay his fines for him." The judge, seeing that justice is satisfied, can let you walk out of the courtroom. That is what Jesus has done for you. He paid your fine.
Now, the Bible says "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." That's why in the Old Testament you have animal sacrifices. It was a covering up of sin. Remember what John the Baptist called Jesus when he first saw Him? "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." Jesus was "God's Lamb." Understand that Jesus was both fully God (which means as God He was able to be the perfect, spotless lamb) and fully man (meaning He was also a representative for us all). He "knew no sin" and was thus able to be "a ransom for many."
His death, because of all of the above, satisfies justice with God. So that if you repent (not just say you are sorry, but to turn away from those sins) and trust in the Savior, you can receive this gift from God.
How exactly does killing Jesus pay for my supposed "sin"? Is scapegoating really justice?
Topher,
Yes, the Jesus story sounds pretty gruesome, but tons of people have suffered as badly and even much worse. Would you like a play-by-play description of some of the tortures and deaths carried out during the Middle Ages by the Church... the Inquisitions, the witch trials and other rampages? Would you like a play-by-play description of all of the depraved stuff that disgusting people have done to other people - and still do?
The *only* way to satisfy "God's" wrath? Ridiculous. Insane.
WASP
1) Yeah, Ok, to be technical, it would have been the wrists.
2) Again, the heels. We're playing with semantics here ...
3) Maybe. Yet there were eyewitnesses to the contrary.
4) Actually, we know that whenever a crucified person would push up with his legs, he'd take the pressure off the lungs and so could gasp for air. The problem was that this caused so much pain due to the nails in the feet that they couldn't do this for long. And it only makes sense that while pushing up the person could talk (and likely scream.)
5) Right. Crucifictions were known to go on for days. That's why the Romans broke the legs of the two thieves next to Jesus. They wanted to speed up the process.
p.s. Here are some examples of medieval torture methods (I can't stomach to read them, but you might learn something, Topher):
http://www.medievality.com/torture.html
love is a two fold event in the brain...............true love not that " love at first sight" bs.
1)love is chemical reaction in the body when you find someone you are phyically attracted to or "feel" close to.
2) love as we understand it is the culmination of basic instincts combined in a higher developed brain. what i understand of love is terriorialism, self preservation, and procreation.
2a) territorialism; drive to own more of what is around you.
2b) self preservation; strength in numbers, you have a mate her family adds to your family thus making both stronger and more able to survive.
2c) procreation; do i really need to explain this one with the current human population on earth? lol
some may see this view as cold, however want proof? you think your dog loves you, correct? it doesn't it merely relieves on you for what it needs to live, if you were to fail at completeing your job as alpha by providing for it, most dogs will "runaway"
What IF
Yeah, there's some sick people in the world and those were terrible things. But none of that has anything to do with what happened to Jesus. He voluntarily took this punishment ... He knew it was going to happen to Him. That's why He came. God took the punishment you and I both deserve so that we can go to Heaven instead of Hell, which we deserve.
"That is what Jesus has done for you. He paid your fine." (Topher)
It's all unfounded. And it's not good for society. I'm sure Hitler felt quite comfy with much of his actions and att!tude with such belief.
sally
What part of God making a way for you to go to Heaven when you don't deserve it isn't good for society?
@toph: if it is so well known that it was the wrists and ankles, then why is it depicted as the hans and feet. religion can't agree on how to depict your savior death.
3) nothing about the bible is "eyewitness" seing it has all been dated to 300 years after the supposed death of jesus; then you also have the fact that the roman emperor constantine paid to have the bible assembled, thus giving him amble power to place in what he wanted HIS converts to believe. constantine a pagan emperor made catholic faith the official religion of rome.
4) let's see if it took a full healthy human that hadn't sustained injury mere minutes to get close to cardiac problems due to lack of oxygen, what do you think would have happen to a deprived adult male that had been "slapped, punched, spit on, had His beard ripped out, tied up and had skin and muscle torn from His body, had thorns pressed down into his scalp, struck on the head, had his blood-soaked and dried robe pulled off Him reopening wounds"
that person wouldn't have lasted but mere moments before surcoming to the weight of their body and dying.
the jesus story is false, they tested what happens to the human body. it was said that jesus lasted DAYS, how can anyone last days without proper water, oxygen and still be coherent enough to do more than moan in agony?
@toph:
– if god is powerful enough to create this whole universe why wasn't he powerful enough to just forgive?
-why is it god had to require a death to atone for a "sin" committed by another person. that's kindof like the law requiring your son to die because you ki11ed a person, doesn't make logical sense does it?
if i was all powerful and all knowing and i created a flawed creature, then i only have myself to blame for either
1) creating it knowing it will not do as i told it.
2) or i'm not as powerful as i once thought seeing i can't control it.
WASP
You've got a LOT of misinformation here ...
3) The Bible was completed (although not accu.mulated in one volume yet) by 94-96 AD, so it's more like 60 years, not 300. You make claims about Constantine, so where's your proof? That burdon is yours. In fact, since we have copies of the books as early as 25 years of the original, we can see that Constantine didn't change anything.
4) No where does it say Jesus lasted days. It was like 3 hours or something close to that. So I think that answers your objections.
@Topher,
I don't think you answered my question. You gave an analogy, but failed to explain what exactly the act of sacrifice does to "pay" for "sin". In you analogy, the fine imposed on the law-breaker has, I think, one or both of two purposes 1) compensation for loss and 2) punishment for the violation.
So under that analogy what kind of compensation is a blood sacrifice? Unless God just likes killing things, of course. In which case the compensation for "sinning" against God would be the pleasure He gets from some being/animal/person getting slaughtered. Gruesome and sadistic but it makes some sense, I guess.
Alternatively, a blood sacrifice might be a punishment for the suposed "sin". Now, if that sacrifice is from one's own resources, say livestock or the money needed for livestock, then you might have a valid "payment" system. Or if the sacrifice is of one's own freedom, i.e. a jail term, then the system might make sense. That is until someone else is allowed to pay it. In other words the punishment alternative only makes sense if the person being punished is the violator. If someone else is punished for my crimes that is not justice, but out right cruelty, whether they agreed to it or not.
"Sorry, I killed your son. Here kill this kid I found on the street in place of my own punishment."
In either case, it seems to me to be a very cruel and inhumane system of justice, if you can even call it that.
@toph: council of nicea was held by constantine in the year 312 C.E. jesus was crucified in the year 32 C.E. if you do basic math you will find that equals 280 years, not 60.
"The Council of Nicaea, the first ecu/menical debate held by the early Christian church, concludes with the establishment of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Convened by Roman Emperor Constantine I in May, the council also deemed the Arian belief of Christ as inferior to God as heretical, thus resolving an early church crisis.
The controversy began when Arius, an Alexandrian priest, questioned the full divinity of Christ because, unlike God, Christ was born and had a beginning. What began as an academic theological debate spread to Christian congregations throughout the empire, threatening a schism in the early Christian church. Roman Emperor Constantine I, who converted to Christianity in 312, called bishops from all over his empire to resolve the crisis and urged the adoption of a new creed that would resolve the ambiguities between Christ and God.
Meeting at Nicaea in present-day Turkey, the council established the equality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity and asserted that only the Son became incarnate as Jesus Christ. The Arian leaders were subsequently banished from their churches for heresy. The Emperor Constantine presided over the opening of the council and contributed to the discussion."
link: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/council-of-nicaea-concludes
"Although Tiberius had authority over the Roman provinces beginning in 11AD, he reigned as Caesar from 14 to 37 so his fifteenth year would have been 29. If John baptized Jesus in 29, the crucifixion would have taken place in 32AD given the Lord’s 3 year ministry."
link:http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/in-what-year-did-jesus-die
Topher
Yes, it is disgusting that He had to go through all of that. Think about it. He did it even though He knew we'd still rebel, we'd still sin against Him. But it was the only way to satisfy God's wrath.
---
There are innocent people who have suffered thousand more times than your pathetic christ who got slapped around and then nailed on a cross. You dead christ is nothign special.
Topher, I have never sinned, and before you say I have, I say prove it.
Timmy
Have you ever told a lie?
No, I have never told a lie, if you think I have then prove it.
I have no idea what you've done. That's why I'm asking you ...
Have you ever stolen anything? (It doesn't matter how long ago it was or how small the value.)
Have you ever taken the Lord's name in vain? Used "OM-!"? Replaced a four-letter word with Jesus' name?
...and it makes..... a fiery ring.
@TOPH: what happen topher? no reply for proven facts that your bible is a fabrication.
Sorry to disappear on y'all yesterday. Right after I posted the day got insanely busy.
@William,
Love is what makes you feel guilty when you act in your own self interest
The greatest expression of love is killing your wife and feeding her to your children when they are starving
Interesting response. The first answer is easier to accept than the second...but I can see how the second can be an expression of love in the direst of circumstances.
@Topher,
I'll answer No. 3. ...
Now, that isn't fair. If you don't answer 1 & 2 first, how are we to evaluate your answer to number 3?
It is what God did 2000 years ago. You see, we've all sinned (lied, stole, blasphemed, looked with lust). That's who we are.
This is what you believe we are. Of course, further discussion on the nature of man and sin would require we stop and define sin in terms that we can agree upon.
And while God is a loving God (He doesn't want us to go to Hell), He's also just (meaning He must punish the lawbreakers.)
And we come back to the fact that you haven't yet told us what love is. How can we agree that your God loves if we do not understand how you define love itself?
Throughout our lives we accrue a fine/penalty that we just cannot pay.
Do we? That is not what I believe.
He realized this and so paid it for us on the cross.
Still not seeing how this is love. We have a lot of undefined terms here, a lot of assumption.
Have you ever read about the punishment He took even before being nailed up to the cross? He was slapped, punched, spit on, had His beard ripped out, tied up and had skin and muscle torn from His body, had thorns pressed down into his scalp, struck on the head, had his blood-soaked and dried robe pulled off Him reopening wounds ... then at the cross had nails pierce each hand and his feet, had his shoulders dislocated ... and have you read how being crucified actually kills you? You basically suffocate as your own body weight squeezes the life out of you. And just to make sure, a Roman speared Him in the side, likely piercing His lungs and heart. All of this torture was done so that YOU could be seen as clean and be able to walk out of God's courtroom. There you have it. The greatest act of love the world has ever seen.
I've read it, Topher. Believed it for years. Don't any more. There are many reasons why, but that isn't the conversation here today. I do not see how that equals love.
John 15:13 ... "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
As pithy platitudes go, this one isn't bad. However, it would depend on the context of the laying down for me to agree.
@Topher,
Yes, it is disgusting that He had to go through all of that. Think about it. He did it even though He knew we'd still rebel, we'd still sin against Him. But it was the only way to satisfy God's wrath.
I contend that love cancels out wrath or wrath cancels out love. The two can not coexist more than temporarily.
@Hubert,
Your answers all resonate with mine. Thank you.
@WASP,
love is a two fold event in the brain...............true love not that " love at first sight" bs.
1)love is chemical reaction in the body when you find someone you are phyically attracted to or "feel" close to.
2) love as we understand it is the culmination of basic instincts combined in a higher developed brain. what i understand of love is terriorialism, self preservation, and procreation.
2a) territorialism; drive to own more of what is around you.
2b) self preservation; strength in numbers, you have a mate her family adds to your family thus making both stronger and more able to survive.
2c) procreation; do i really need to explain this one with the current human population on earth? lol
Also valid answers. Thank you.
@myweight
Your welcome. 🙂 Although I must be honest. I know you asked for no quotes, but my answer to the first question is a paraphrasing of the character Jubal Harshaw in Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein managed to give my answer more eloquently than I ever could.
I can forgive that, Heinlein did have a way with words. That's probably my favorite Heinlein book too.
The President made a speech to teh UN Assembly the other day
“Here in the United States, countless publications provoke offense. Like me, the majority of Americans are Christian, and yet we do not ban blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs. As president of our country, and commander-in-chief of our military, I accept that people are going to call me awful things every day, and I will always defend their right to do so,”
“I know that not all countries in this body share this understanding of the protection of free speech. Yet in 2012, at a time when anyone with a cell phone can spread offensive views around the world with the click of a button, the notion that we can control the flow of information is obsolete,”
Most of the time I'm not very enthusiastic about Obama, but then he goes and says something like this and I remember why I voted for him.
Does anyone notice that doc vestipuke is not an American. What a F'n phony. Pat attention to your own bull sh it country and don't tread on US you ass hole. There's your sign
religion itself isn't a bad thing. i can say that honestly and believe those words. any belief that makes one want to be a better person is a grand belief to be sure! however, the belief in something unpovable full heartedly is what i find to be disconcerting. the real issue with religion is when those that believe full heartedly run a country or when the majority of the cizitens are religious. For as we all know, the majority make the rule. wether it be thru having more votes or greater numbers in your army the idea is the same, strength in numbers! But when this is the case what you get is oppession.
any religiously ran government is an oppressive one. All religions state what people should, should not, can, and can not do and even at times religions state when one should do these things. it is in its most basic function a form of social control that warps the mind of the creature being controlled so that the end result is a person who willingly acts in accordance to that very same oppressive government thereby making the government appear to be not controlling at all.
it is a very nice trick, but aren't tricks for children?
should we not grow up?
are dreams really worth giving reality up?
how is a hope greater then knowledge?
why aren't other things taken at face value with the same "faith"?
Morning all.
It is another beautiful day without god(s).
Isn't it amazing how something that dosen't exist can cast such long shadows on such a sunny day!