October 10th, 2012
12:01 PM ET

Congressman draws fire for calling evolution, Big Bang ‘lies from the pit of hell’

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

Washington (CNN) - A U.S. congressman is attracting attention and criticism for an online video that shows him blasting evolution and the Big Bang theory as “lies from the pit of hell” in a recent speech at a church event in his home state of Georgia.

“All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, the Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell,” U.S Rep. Paul Broun said in an address last month at a banquet organized by Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell, Georgia. “And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”

Broun, a medical doctor by training, serves on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

Speaking at Liberty Baptist Church’s Sportsman’s Banquet on September 27, he said that “a lot of scientific data that I’ve found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth.”

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“I don’t believe that the Earth’s but about 9,000 years old,” Broun said in the speech, which Liberty Baptist Church posted on its website via YouTube.  “I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says."

Scientists say that the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and that the universe dates back 13.7 billion years.

In his speech to the church group, Broun called the Bible the “the manufacturer’s handbook. … It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society.”

“That’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that,” he said.

A spokeswoman for the congressman, Meredith Griffanti, said that Broun was not available for comment on Wednesday and that the video showed him “speaking off the record to a large church group about his personal beliefs regarding religious issues.”

The congressman’s remarks about science have drawn attention online, with critics taking aim at his role on the science committee.

Bill Nye, the popular science personality, told the Huffington Post in an e-mail that "Since the economic future of the United States depends on our tradition of technological innovation, Representative Broun's views are not in the national interest."

"For example, the Earth is simply not 9,000 years old," said Nye, a mechanical engineer and television personality best known for his program "Bill Nye the Science Guy." Broun "is, by any measure, unqualified to make decisions about science, space, and technology."

Talking Points Memo reported on the church video over the weekend after being tipped off by the Bridge Project, a progressive group that tracks conservative activity.

Most creationists believe in the account of the origins of the world as told in the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

In the creation account, God creates Adam and Eve, the world and everything in it in six days.

For Christians who read the Genesis account literally, or authoritatively as they would say, the six days in the account are literal 24-hour periods and leave no room for evolution.  Young Earth creationists use this construct and biblical genealogies to determine the age of the Earth and typically come up with 6,000 to 10,000 years.

The Gallup Poll has been tracking Americans' views on creation and evolution for 30 years.  In June, it released its latest findings, which showed that 46% of Americans believed in creationism, 32% believed in evolution guided by God, and 15% believed in atheistic evolution.

- CNN's Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Evolution • Politics • Science

soundoff (5,886 Responses)
  1. fortysevenpercent

    Romney must be talking about creating 12 million pastor jobs. Science and Tech jobs will continue to move to India and China with Republicans at the helm.

    October 16, 2012 at 8:50 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      Who are the idiots that put any prez in charge of job creation? Oh, progressives.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
  2. Hmmm...

    When the ulimate fate of the universe is predicted to collapse, what is the point of it all?

    October 16, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Indeed, does it really matter, cosmically speaking, if you don't get up and go to work in the morning.

      The planet will keep spinning, until that day that it is consumed by the radiation of the sun as it becomes a red giant.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
    • Arvoasitis

      For all we know, life is a flash of light that separates two eternities of darkness. What does anything matter? As a wise man in a novel said, the most important decision we have to make is what to do with the time that is given to us.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • Hmm...

      I didn't go to work this morning 🙁 Yikes!!! I wondering if the end of the earth is a point everyone would agree on or maybe it 101 temperature talking.

      Inspirational quote...was it bilbo baggins?

      October 16, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
  3. magdaleine

    Read this and wake up all you confused creationists! Its apparent that you and this crazy politician don't know how to interpret scripture and that the Bible is NOT a historical record book. They didn't even use the Roman calendar when Genesis was written, so the time frame isn't even correct (or relevant). And most of all, the beautiful story of creation in the Bible is a reminder that at some point, somewhere God did make the earth; maybe you'll get the details if you go to heaven (and this story was adapted from Sumerian culture!! They weren't even Christian) I'm sick of all the ignorant people running around who claim to know the truth of the Bible, but haven't got a clue in hell as to what they are reading!


    October 16, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      UUuummm, magdad, God told the serpent how He was going to defeat him. So it's no surprise the counterfeits showed up early.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
    • End Religion

      @anyRead: please provide the video of this serpent conversation that your supposed all-powerful god surely has.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:54 pm |
  4. David

    The difference between a scientist and a Christian extremist:
    Scientists seek the truth. If a theory turns out incorrect, they don't defend it. They improve the theory with the new information.
    Christian extremists have decided what they want the truth to be. If what they believe turns out incorrect, they will dig their heels in and defend it forever, sacrificing logic, reason and integrity, all for the sake of what they want to be true.
    Example: young earth theory

    October 16, 2012 at 6:40 pm |
    • magdaleine

      Also sounds like the Republican campaign...

      October 16, 2012 at 6:42 pm |
    • Jesus Christ Your Lord

      so correct!

      religion is not falsifiable and therefore will never be factual.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • Arvoasitis

      David, your view of science is not well-informed. Read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" to understand how science actually progresses. There have also been quite a few cases where mainline religion and mainline science have united to attack an intelligent point of view.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • todaymessage

      The reason religious is called faith because faith doesn't require reason to believe in.

      Too bad christian extremists in US mixe up faith with reason. Frankly, they are no difference than those they are fighting in middle east.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:58 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      Poor, poor, wurld. God didn't give you specifics on creation. Poor, poor, wurld. When the Library of Alexandria burnt down it slowed your development of weapons.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Graystone


      October 18, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
  5. Vicki

    The article didn't say if he was a Republican or Democrat, I would bet my life he is a Republican and what a shock, he is from Georgia! And like a lot of the comments before mine...he sits on a Science committee, no wonder nothing gets done in Congress...where do these people come from...oh yeah...Georgia!

    October 16, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
    • Spencer

      you are making the assumption that only Republicans are religious, thus implying that democrats are not. Both of which are easily falsifiable.

      Regardless, his political affiliation is irrelevant to this discussion.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
    • Scully

      Spencer, Vicki is not making the assumption that only republicans are religious. She is making the assumption that republicans are more likely to embrace ideology over critical thinking. Her assumption is based on recent evidence of republicans ignoring facts that counter their preconceived ideas. This congressman is, in fact, republican, and his political party is relevant to this discussion. There seems to be an epidemic of blind ideologists currently in the republican party. Voters need to beware.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Scully is correct. Republicans don't have a corner on religious faith, but they surely are more likely to be on the fringes of religious craziness.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • Spencer

      Sorry, but when ever I see someone pigeon holing a large and diverse group of people, simply because of the political party they have chosen to affiliate with, it forces me to assume that person is equally pants on head crazy as the people they are lambasting.

      both political extremes are repugnant, and its laughable when one side tries to claim any sort of greater moral or intelligent standing then the other.

      October 17, 2012 at 3:05 am |
    • Primewonk

      Spencer – When you look at the folks who year by year, state by state, seek to introduce legislation to force the teaching of creationism in public schools, they are overwhelmingly republican. When you look at folks who claim the Big Bang is a lie, they are overwhelmingly republican. When you look at folks who claim ACC is a scam, they are overwhelmingly republican.

      If people object to being lumped in with ignorant luddite nutters, perhaps they shouldn't associate with ignorant luddite nutters?

      October 17, 2012 at 8:24 am |
  6. Emet

    I hold a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology. How many of you people who believe the world is billions of years old understand how water effects the accuracy of carbon dating? Those of you who look down on others for not accepting what we were taught in school are obviously not scientists, as scientists question was is thought to be truth and understand that ALL scientific "facts" are subject to change because nothing can be absolutely proven in science. You poor lower level beings who grasp onto this idea of the evolutionary theory of creationism don't even know that some of the higher level physicists have ended up realizing that there must be a Creator because then universe, from microcosm to macrocosm, is anything but random.

    October 16, 2012 at 6:10 pm |
    • Spencer

      and you of all people would know that carbon dating is hardly the only way to date the age of the solar system, let alone our planet.

      and nothing can be absolutely proven in science???? what have you been smoking? You sure you went to an actual collage and got an actual degree?


      October 16, 2012 at 6:19 pm |
    • Jesus Christ Your Lord

      that's the stupidest thing I've ever read. You are biased towards the idea of a creator.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
    • OneTruth

      Are you saying that evolution is wrong. Please provide your reasoning.
      Which "higher level physicists" support the idea of a creator.
      Are you sure you have a science degree?

      October 16, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
    • todaymessage

      Emet, I strongly doubt you have any education in science. If there is a creator, he will hang himself seeing his creation becoming you.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:18 pm |
    • NickZadick

      I highly doubt you have a degree in anything!

      October 16, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • JJ

      Are you a graduate of Liberty University? A 2nd grade science student understands more then you do, you imbecile.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Emet, honey, a scientist would know the difference between "effect" and "affect" and would care enough to make sure he/she used the correct term–not because of grammar but because the terms are scientifically meaningful and one is NOT the equivalent of the other.

      You're a fraud.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:20 pm |
    • Doc Ock

      Emet holds a degree in nothing from the University of Make Believe.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • End Religion

      lol, Emet, what's the address where we may send a SASE to get degrees like yours?

      October 16, 2012 at 11:17 pm |

      Emet,.you might have held such a degree in your grubby hands, but it wasn't yours, nor granted to you. Nice try at the science misrep, though.

      October 17, 2012 at 1:32 am |
    • Primewonk

      I wonder why someone with a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology would think that carbon dating has anything to do with dating the age of the earth?

      Emet must have received his science training from the folks as this congressman.

      October 17, 2012 at 8:32 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Emet knows that Satan is responsible for radioactivity and isotopic abundance. Though trained in science, he is not deceived by the lies of science. He holds science to the standard of Truth revealed by the one True God.

      October 17, 2012 at 8:38 am |
  7. Billy B.

    He certainly has a right to his faith and beliefs on these matters. That being said, how in the hell is this guy on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology? Of course that is the same committee that has Todd Akin on it so there you go.

    October 16, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      It was quite a feat for the progressives to make the washington mobsters in charge of education.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What you know about education, dear, would fit in the foreskin of a dwarf chipmunk.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
    • End Religion

      Really? A dwarf chipmunk? Genius!

      October 16, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
    • Spencer

      Everyone knows that dwarf chipmunks are an evolutionary dead end, and thus the spawn of satin.

      October 17, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
  8. Thomas

    This boy's paycheck is theft.

    October 16, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
  9. Don

    “Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.” Bertrand Russell

    Don't you love how Protestants are always fighting Mormons, Catholics fighting Protestants, or they all hate on baptists, or what have you.

    October 16, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • mama k

      They had a big problem with that at the time of the founding of the U.S. Which is most likely what drove James Madison, the 4th POTUS and chief architect of the Constitution to say:

      During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

      –(A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, 1785)

      and ten years later:

      Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?

      –(A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795)

      October 16, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
    • jeff

      Let Hod be true and every man a liar amen and yes I am a Republican

      October 16, 2012 at 8:23 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      So now they gave the legal authority to the religion of Evolutionism. It costs way more than any church of Christians.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      OOoh, "It costs WAY more.." You sound about as bright as a Kardashian.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:18 pm |
    • End Religion

      I was worried for a second Tom was going to go for a dwarf chipmunk Kardashian. That would have been just too darn much.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:23 pm |
    • Spencer

      and there it is again... Anybody know how to read?, do you have any idea what a religion actually is?

      October 17, 2012 at 1:17 pm |

    Jesus absolutely foretold about and thus endorsed the "Son of Man" here (=John 6/20, 47),

    and that "Son of Man" has thus absolutely proven now

    that Big bang and Evolution are the most Powerful and Superb "Creation Acts" of GOD

    through the "Language of Mathematics" here:



    October 16, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • Primewonk

      More ignorant fundiot nuttery.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:41 pm |


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      October 16, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
  11. GY


    October 16, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
    • Veritas

      Interesting to see if they fold under pressure from the crazy creationists..

      October 16, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
  12. Anybody know how to read?

    Of course Evolutionism is a false religion. The hom osaps were warned a long time ago. '1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].'

    October 16, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • ME II

      What religion is "Evolutionism"? I've never heard of it.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
    • mama k

      Of course these are more words attributed to Paul. He has a self-proclaimed "Apostle", and we have no reasonable proof of his special vision that led to his supposed apostleship. (About the same amount of proof as we have for Joseph Smith's "special moments".) But he sure was a chatty Cathy, and that's why Christians today can so easily speak with a forked tongue (since you can argue just about any point from his words).

      Christianity is unfounded folklore built upon yet even more unfounded folklore.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • mama k

      In my reply, by "these words", I am referring to 1 Timothy.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • Anybody know how to think?

      Evolution is not a religion.
      Evolution is not false.
      You'd know both of those things had you attended school.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      @Anybody, your enormous ignorance NEVER ceases to amuse me.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      That was, of course, meant for Anybody know how to read...

      October 16, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • Spencer

      You keep calling an understanding of evolution a "religion"

      I don't think that word means what you think it means.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
    • jason

      Evolutionism – is a sect of Scientism. This is a religious cult with the highest ranking officials in the fundamentalist atheist camps – Scientism is a religion of the worship of Science. they believe that the only way of knowing anything is through science.

      They don't realize that inductive reasoning, ie the scientific method is a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent, or denying the antecedent.

      People don't realize that you cannot separate a person from his worldview and epistomological beliefs

      Question is, if you believe in a worldview of naturalism – ie matter and the laws of nature are all that exist – are laws of Logic a part of nature? How do we know we evolved correctly? that your mind evolved correctly? that your senses are reliable?

      October 16, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • Spencer

      jason: you clearly don't understand the process. There is no such thing as "evolving properly". there never has been, there never will be.

      October 16, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • Spencer

      and once again with the calling science a religion.. Seriously, you may want to look up the meaning of the word.

      October 16, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • Thomas

      evolution is a religion?

      ummmm.... no. There's a great deal of evidence.

      October 16, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      The default for man is having a god. If you don't have a god outside yourself, you will make yourself the one. 'Phl 3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)'

      October 16, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      From the free online dictionary: 'Evolutionism 2. Advocacy of or belief in biological evolution.'

      October 16, 2012 at 9:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Anyboob, you're so full of sh!t your eyes, nose and lips are brown.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Anyboob never got past his senior year in high school. The dolt couldn't get into a community college.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:33 pm |
    • mfsbt

      BE CAREFUL little man... your poor attempt at an insult is bordering on a racial slur......

      October 16, 2012 at 9:34 pm |
    • Anybody know how to think?

      The default is no god. That indoctrination comes later.
      You haven't answered any of the replies. Lights on but nobody home?

      October 16, 2012 at 9:38 pm |
    • Veritas

      Dude, Evolutionism is a giveaway. It's a word typically used by creationists.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Not at your trailer, no. But your dogs are barking.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No kidding. What "church" do "evolutionists" attend? Is there a minister? A choir? An organist? A hymnal?

      The idiocy of boobs like Anybody is beyond laughable.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, yeah, and Mother F*c)king Son of a Bit@h's T-it, I couldn't care any less about your issues with ra cism if my life depended on it, you squirrel.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      Here's one missionary group: 'The Society for the Study of Evolution has several options for membership. Our main area of expertise is in supporting professional scientists and their students, but we also encourage K-12' Yeah, like a kid in K is interested. When I was in K, I tried to get the hot chick in the 1st to break out with me. But alas, she was too social.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nah. She just prefers men with balls.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:20 pm |
    • End Religion

      @jason: "People don't realize that you cannot separate a person from his worldview and epistomological beliefs"

      It happens all the time. Ranks of the non-believers are growing. We simply present the truth over and over until finally the religious sheepishly admit they never really believed anyway.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:33 pm |
    • ME II

      Science does not deal in "proofs," logical or otherwise. It is ultimately always tentative and dependent on the evidence. Additionally, inductive reasoning is the opposite of deductive reasoning, which is what logical fallacies are related to. In other words, in dedcutive logic, if the arguement's form is valid and the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true. Inductive reasoning and science make no such claim, but build probable outcomes from the evidence of specific data, i.e. general from the specific.

      October 17, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
  13. jas

    As the true word of Jehova GOD BEWARE OF THE FALSE PROFET !

    October 16, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • Athy

      Prophet, maybe? You write like a child, jas.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Thomas

      maybe you mean 'profit'?

      October 16, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
    • End Religion

      Back into your bunker. We'll knock after the Rapture. Trust me.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
    • Graystone


      October 17, 2012 at 1:21 am |
  14. jas

    But he will stand with a morman that professaaaaes the bible is false and that he is a profet of God and teaches this . Ther religion has been proven to be completly false by histoians,scientist and the bible. Google the bible vs the book of morman. It was written in 1828 by Joeseph Smith that said the blacks were cursed by God and the americas is were all biblical historic events were and Jeasus and God will return in Illinois.

    October 16, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • Athy

      Go back to fifth grade and pay attention this time.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • the AnViL

      you're obviously confused on a lot of points... so let's take a moment to clear up some of that confusion.

      mormons love the bible. they consider themselves xian.... just like baptists or catholics or lutherans or pentacostals.

      the important thing to remember about all of them, is that they're all founded on ignorance and can't bring to bear a shred of evidence or truth to anything they claim.

      all religions are false.

      there are no gods.
      there are no devils.
      there's no heaven.
      there's no hell.

      you're trapped in the clutches of 2000 years of idiocy. you're gripped firmly in the ugly clasp of ignorance.

      everyone who believes in a higher power, no matter if it's elohim, allah, or the flying spaghetti monster – is mentally ill, suffering from delusional thinking.

      you're free to believe in whatever fantasies and imaginary men in the sky you choose, but it has absolutely no place in our government or our public schools.

      you and those who think like you should not be allowed to hold public office, vote, purchase firearms, or teach public school.

      tolerance of religiosity has to end.

      enough is enough.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
    • NickZadick

      What anvil said!

      October 16, 2012 at 8:27 pm |
    • Graystone

      The AnVil… You say "all religions are false, there are no gods, there are no devils, there's no heaven, and there's no hell."…

      Wow. You know a lot. Please show us your proof of these facts. And while you're at it, please tell us which mountain on earth you were standing on that was so high that you could see into heaven to even know whether a god was up there or not. And please tell us which valley on earth that you was in that was so low that you could peer into the depths of the earth and could see that there are no devils or a hell down there…

      We'd certainly like to know...

      October 17, 2012 at 1:29 am |
    • the AnViL

      graystone: i do not claim knowledge i can never substantiate. only people caught in the throes of the god delusion do that. i state plainly that there are no gods, no devils, no heavens, no hells – primarily because there's absolutely no evidence or proof of such things. there is no evidence and proof of such things for a very good, sound, inarguable reason: they do not exist. there's absolutely no need to believe in such ignorance. there's nothing in the standard model that points to any of it. 🙂

      i will refer you to the late great christopher hitchens. he was a model anti-theist, perhaps a bit too tame and polite in my estimate, no offence to the man... but allow me to quote him before i proceed:

      "that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

      with that – i will simply offer you this: no one needs to prove that something non-existent does not exist. it simply doesn't exist.

      the burden of proof lies entirely in the shoulders of those who believe in imaginary men in the sky to prove their claim. they won't ever – because they can never... because there's no proof – never has been – never will be.

      people believe the delusional constructs they do – because of where they were born and the ignorance level of those who educated them.

      no one ever explained this stuff to you before????? srsly????

      *deep heavy sigh*

      religion is predicate upon ignorance.
      science is predicate upon knowledge.

      tolerance of religious thinking has to end.

      enough is enough.

      October 17, 2012 at 2:30 am |
    • Graystone

      AnVIL… when you stated "there's absolutely no evidence or proof of such things"… that statement is based on whose opinion – yours? If so, your personal opinion means nothing. Just because you "personally" do not believe that such things as heaven, hell or God exists, that doesn't make them not exist. It only means that you personally don't believe they exist. And your personal feelings or opinions is not proof at all…

      Secondly, there always has been proof that such things exist, only not the kind of proof that you personally are willing to accept. And if that is the case, then whose fault is that? – God for not providing you with the kind of proof you are willing to accept – or yours, for not accepting the proof which God has provided? Me thinks that the problem lies with you. Consider the following scripture...

      Romans 1:20 – For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

      As the above scripture confirms, even those things which God created that are "invisible" can be clearly seen and understood by the things in this world that are visible, even his eternal power and Godhead – and that people like you are without excuse. This means you won't have any excuse on Judgment Day. Proof of the existence of God has always been before you and is all around you. And if you can't see it, it's not because God doesn't exist or the proof doesn't exist, but it's only because there's something wrong with your mind and that you're blind…

      2 Corinthians 4:4 – In whom the god of this world (Lucifer) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not…

      October 17, 2012 at 7:47 am |
    • NickZadick

      Graystone.... how is quoting bronze age myths and paraboles relevant? why do you believe what men that died 2000 years ago wrote? wake up and defy your brainwashing!!

      October 17, 2012 at 11:19 am |
    • the AnViL

      if your intent is to prove the existence of god, satan, heaven and hell – by citing the bible, then you're beyond ignorant.

      the bible is no more proof of the existence of your imaginary god than comic books are proof of the existence of superman.

      and no, graystoned.... there is no superman.

      October 17, 2012 at 11:50 am |
    • Graystone

      NickZadick, my answer to you is the same as to AnViL. Just because you personally "think and believe" the bible is just a myth, that doesn't make it a myth. It only means you have a false belief. And you have zero proof it is a myth. All you know is that some fool came along and told you the bible was a myth – and you believe it. That was your first mistake. You believed a lie without even proving it and making sure it was true. Why didn't you question the person who told you the bible was a myth and ask them to prove it to you? You didn't question them. You simply accepted it, all because that was exactly what you wanted to hear. And that's the trap. And now you are deceived. And now you want people like me to go to great lengths to try and convince you otherwise to straighten your mind out. But I won't waste my time. You got yourself into that situation by believing a lie. So get yourself out…

      AnVil… I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I'm just stating the truth. You can either believe that truth or not. But your unbelief of the truth does not make it untrue. It only makes you an unbeliever.

      You can say all day long that the bible is untrue and that there is no God. But until you can prove that statement, your words don't mean a thing. They're only words. That is the very reason why you often make statements like – "no one needs to prove that something non-existent does not exist. It simply doesn't exist." Your strategy for saying such things is only an "escapist clause". You want to have an excuse for not proving what you say, you don't want to be held accountable for your statements. But you're living in a fantasy world. This is the real world. And in the real world, you do indeed have to "prove" the things you say (even if you say God does not exist) otherwise, your words are just words and they don't mean a thing…

      You also say there is no superman. Yes, there is. His name is Jesus Christ. And he did things no one else could do…

      October 17, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Graystone

      To AnVil and NickZadick...

      I don't have to do this, but I just wanted to take a moment to show you guys just how ludicrous and ridiculous your statements are…

      First, you say that God does not exist. That is a statement you cannot prove, and you have zero proof of that fact. All you have is just an opinion, nothing more. Secondly, if God did not exist then what was Jesus, a fantasy? Jesus was a real person who walked upon this earth. He was not a fantasy. And real world history confirms he was here. And if Jesus existed, then so also does God exist. It cannot be otherwise. How, why? Because Jesus was also the "Son" of the living God. And because it is impossible for a "son" to exist without a father (every person on earth has a father, and you don't have to see their father to know they have one), if Jesus existed, then so also does God exist. It cannot be otherwise…

      As more proof of you guy's lunacy… you say the bible is just a myth. That means you're saying the bible is a hoax and a lie and that none of the people mentioned in the bible has ever existed, right? Wrong. There is plenty of real world evidence to support the fact that many of the people mentioned in the bible did indeed exist. For example, Pontius Pilate existed. You can find actual pictures of bronze statues of him on the internet and on old Roman coins. And Pontius Pilate personally met Jesus. So how can you say that Jesus never existed? To say such things only illustrates your ignorance….

      And to further illustrate your ignorance… the bible clearly describes and speaks about in exact detail certain events that happened in human history, whether you believe that history or not. For example, the scriptures state that it was Pontius Pilate who was the Roman governor at the time who was responsible for sentencing Jesus to death and to be crucified. Therefore, for the bible to be a myth, that means the bible is actually lying on Pontius Pilate and has defamed his name and it was all untrue and that it was all just a pack of lies? Why hasn't that happened? Note, the bible has been distributed all over the world and everyone knows about it. And even today, there are still descendants of Pontius Pilate who are still alive. And why haven't any of them came forward to clear his good name if it was all just lies.? I'll tell you why. It's because it wan't lies and you can't fight truth. If the bible is telling the truth then there is nothing they can say. And that is precisely why in more than 2000 years, not a single person has ever come forward to say otherwise. Only unbelievers like you who don't want to accept that past are trying to say otherwise. And not just Pontious Pilate either, think about all the other people who were mentioned in the bible – the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, and countless others and their descendants. Countless people have been mentioned by name in the bible. And if the bible was truly a myth and a lie, then it is totally and utterly impossible that across all the years since that the descendants of those people would not have not came forward to clear their family's good name. But they haven't came forward because the bible is true.

      Thus, even using simply logic, this proves the bible is indeed true. And that it is only you guys (who have accepted a lie that the bible is untrue) that has been deceived….

      October 17, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Graystone

      To AnVil and NickZadick...

      In my previous post, while I was editing it, an important part of a paragraph I wrote got left out. Here is that paragraph again but with the missing part included…

      And to further illustrate your ignorance… the bible clearly describes and speaks about in precise details certain events that happened in human history, whether you believe that history or not. For example, the scriptures state that it was Pontius Pilate who was the Roman governor at the time who was responsible for sentencing Jesus to death and to be crucified. Therefore, for the bible to be a myth, that means the bible is actually lying on Pontius Pilate and has defamed his good name and made him a hated man down through history. If that is the case and true, and if the bible is all just lies, then please tell me why in more than 2000 years since have not a single person ever came forward to clear their family's name, not even the descendants of Pontius Pilate, and to state that the bible is all untrue and that it is all just lies? Why hasn't that happened? Note, the bible has been distributed all over the world and everyone knows about it. And even today, rest assured there are still descendants of Pontius Pilate who are still alive. So why haven't any of Pontius Pilate's descendants came forward to clear his good name if it was all just lies? I'll tell you why. It's because you can't fight truth. If the bible is telling the truth then there is nothing they can say. And that is precisely why in more than 2000 years since, not a single person has ever come forward to say otherwise. Only unbelievers like you who don't want to accept the reality of that past are trying to say otherwise. And not just Pontious Pilate either. Think about all the other people who were mentioned by name in the bible – the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, and countless other people and their descendants. If the bible was truly a myth and a lie as you say, then it is completely and utterly impossible that across all the years since that the descendants of those people would not have not came forward to clear their family's history and good name. But they haven't came forward simply because they know the bible is true. And you can't fight truth...

      Thus, even by using simply logic, this proves the bible is indeed true. And that it is only you guys (who have accepted a lie that the bible is untrue) that has been deceived….

      October 17, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • the AnViL

      you can quote the entire bible from the beginning to the end – and you still will not be able to prove the claim that god exists.
      the biblical texts were penned by men, on earth, through history. is there any historical backing to validate this fact? yes – there sure is. does it validate the absurd claims in the biblical texts? nope.

      it wasn't even a good try – you should be ashamed to be this ignorant.

      October 17, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
    • Graystone

      All your questions answered...

      Question #1 – Does God exist?

      Answer: The existence of God can be proven easily enough. It can be proven in many ways but can also be proven by one simply thing – by asking yourself, "Did Jesus exist?". If you answered that question as No – then you're dumber than you look. But if you answered that question as Yes , and agrees that Jesus existed, then rest assured, his father in heaven also exists. And it cannot be otherwise. For Jesus was the "Son of God", and no son can exist without a father. If you go to China today and see someone standing on the street, you don't have to actually see their father to know that they have one. Everyone has one, and it is impossible for them not to have one. If they exist, then so also does their father exist. And Jesus is no exception. If Jesus existed, then so also does God exist, because God is his father. And it cannot be otherwise. It is very simple logic which cannot be defeated…

      Question #2 – Did Jesus exist?

      Answer: No matter where you are in the world, everyone should know that Jesus existed. Jesus did indeed exist and he walked the shores of Galilee, and there is plenty of real world evidence to support that he was here. For example, the whole calendar or man flipped over from BC to AD all because of him. It was Jesus who inspired that switch. So how can you say he was never here? And if Jesus was here and if he existed, then so also does God exist. It cannot be otherwise…

      Question #3 – Is the bible true and are the events described in the bible just fantasy and stories made up by man?

      Answer: The events of the bible are real and can also be proven easily enough. People say the bible was written by man. But so also was the Declaration of Independence, yet you believe in that, don't you? Yes, the bible was written by man, but not by just any man. The scriptures were written by special men of God who were inspired to write those things by the Holy Ghost. God himself was working through the Holy Ghost to guide those men on what to write. Thus, it was God who wrote the scriptures, the men were only the writing instruments. If a man writes a poem, you don't say the "pen" wrote the poem do you? even though the pen actually did. Instead you say the man wrote the poem. It is the same thing with God. If God inspires a person to write through the Holy Ghost, then it is God doing the writing and man is just the writing instrument.

      Secondly, if the events of the bible are only a myth and just made up stories, then consider this. The countless people whom the bible has mentioned and talked about were not just a collection of fantasy names made up, but they were real people who had existed. For example, Pontius Pilate the Roman Governor who had met Jesus, he was a real person and you can find pictures of him today in Roman history. The bible says that not only did Pontius Pilate meet Jesus but also that he was responsible for sentencing Jesus to be crucified and to die on Calvary. And the world has hated Pontius Pilate because of that. And if that story is all a lie and is untrue, and if Pontius Pilate never met Jesus, then please tell me why in all the 2000 years that has passed since has not Pontius Pilate or any of his descendants come forward to say the bible lied on them and to clear their good name? Where are they? The bible speaks about real events and real people and talks about all the things they did back then in history. And if those countless bible stories is all just a myth, then please tell me why not one single person has ever came forward to say the bible lied on them? In a suing world, it can only be because they know the bible is true and that the events described were true. And it cannot be otherwise…

      Conclusion: God does not force any person to be saved, and he does not force any person to believe. All he does is provide you with knowledge of the facts, and it is then your choice to believe in it. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He that believeth not shall be damned." Thus, if you end up in hell, rest assured, it will be your own fault…

      God is not required to provide you with "proof that you will accept". He is required only to provide you with proof. And he has done that. He did it when he sent his only begotten son into the world. For God is a spirit (and spirits are invisible) thus to prove to you that the spiritual God does exist, he sent his only begotten son into the world in the form of flesh and blood – real flesh and blood that you can believe in – and his son has declared him. Thus, you don't have to "know for certain" that God exists, all you have to do is to believe his son who has said he exists. For he that believeth shall be saved. He that believeth not, shall be damned. It's as simple as that. And if believing is Jesus is not good enough for you, then you're lost already…

      Rest assured, on Judgment Day, no person shall have any excuse. You will not be able to say that you didn't know God existed. For God has provided you with proof he exists. Only it is not the kind of proof some of you are willing to accept. For example, the above questions I have answered all use very simple logic to explain the idea of why God exists. And it is very simple logic that cannot be defeated. And it is that same logic will stand against you on Judgment Day. For example, God will say to you, the proof of his existence has always been before you, so why didn't you accept it? And what will your answer to God be?…

      October 17, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
    • the AnViL

      there is actually no proof or evidence that jebus existed. there is evidence that jebus was more than one person, that all the things he was purported to have said were said by someone else waaaaay before he was supposed to have said them...

      and there is also evidence that the entire new testament was fabricated by the piso family.

      barring all the foolishness:

      you're under the mistaken belief that you can prove the existence of your imaginary god. you simply can not.

      the bible got a lot wrong, graystoned. you're just too ignorant to see it.

      "how do you know there is a god?"
      "the bible says so!"
      "how do you know the bible is true?"
      "because it says so in the bible!"


      October 17, 2012 at 8:04 pm |
    • Graystone

      Anvil… about all I can say is that you're in deep denial, or that something is wrong with your mind. And, evidently, you've been getting your information from the wrong source. And on Judgment Day you shall have no excuse…

      You keep talking about "there is evidence of this and that". But there is no such evidence and all you've heard is lies. You've believed the word of other people who are just as deluded and deceived as you are. And they have no more evidence of what they say than you…

      God is not imaginary. He's real. And I've already proven that he exists using simple logic. And it is logic that cannot be defeated. And it most certainly cannot be defeated by you simply saying over and over again "he does not exist".
      You are obviously deeply blind and deceived...

      And in none of my previous explanations did I ever say that I believe God is real all because the bible says so. So don't put words in my mouth. That was never an explanation I had used. Instead, I had said that God exists because his son Jesus existed, and real world history bears witness that Jesus was here. And if you don't know that he was here and can't see the proof in the world today that he was here, then you definitely need to go back to school…

      October 18, 2012 at 1:52 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'Graystone' commences with a form of the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager and concludes with an instance of the ad hominem fallacy.


      October 18, 2012 at 2:03 am |
    • redzoa

      @Graystone – Your post with the subheading "All your questions answered..." is nothing but a collection of non sequiturs. For example, you state:

      "But if you answered that question as Yes , and agrees that Jesus existed, then rest assured, his father in heaven also exists. And it cannot be otherwise. For Jesus was the "Son of God", and no son can exist without a father."

      Accepting that Jesus existed, alone, does not necessitate his father was in heaven or that his father was God. Jesus could have existed and been just a man with a human father. Jesus could have existed and been an alien. Jesus could have existed, had a father in Heaven and the father was Zeus or Thor or Vishnu. Etc, etc.

      You also state that the Bible is not your primary source, but offer no others beyond your personal "logic."

      I understand you believe these statements to be true, but your belief is not "proof." The use of non sequiturs is a logical fallacy, not an application of viable logic. Your belief is just that, belief. Were there "proof" of Jesus' divinity or the existence of God, their worship would not be a matter of "faith."

      October 18, 2012 at 2:05 am |
    • Graystone

      Redzoa… Your counter argument is flawed. The points I made was not about whether you think Jesus was the Son of God or not. It was about the fact that Jesus said he was the son of God and because of the miracles he was doing, people believed it. And it wasn't just a claim either, Jesus did wonders and miracles that no other person on earth could do or has ever done. Therefore, to state or say that Jesus was just a man is ludicrous.

      You state that Jesus could also have been an alien. By that reasoning, I could also say that you might be an alien too, couldn't I? But that doesn't make it true. Simply stating your doubts and unbelief about something doesn't make it untrue. It only makes you an unbeliever…

      The points I have made were not my own personal logic – they are simple common sense that everyone should have. And if you can't see that then maybe you have a few marbles missing. If I were you, I'd get a checkup right away…

      Lastly, I never said that my belief is "proof". Because that's the argument you guys have been trying to make. For example, you want me to believe that your "unbelief" is somehow proof. That is, just because you "don't believe" he exists, then he doesn't exists. And you feel that is all the proof you need. LOL! Don't you see, it's the same crazy logic you're using. Therefore, if belief is not "proof", then rest assured, "unbelief" is not proof either. And it cannot be otherwise…

      October 18, 2012 at 2:56 am |
    • Graystone

      If belief is not "proof" that something exists, then rest assured, "unbelief" that it doesn't exist is not proof either. It cannot be otherwise…

      Therefore, if you cannot "prove" that God does not exist, then you are in error to state or to say he doesn't exist…

      October 18, 2012 at 3:02 am |
    • redzoa

      @Graystone – Your entire first paragraph is more bald as-sertion. No evidence of miracles, just anecdotes and triple hearsay. You erroneously confuse your personal belief with empirical fact.

      I could be an alien. You cannot "know" this anymore than you can "know" Jesus performed miracles. But you miss the point. Your conclusions do not follow your premise. There are alternatives beyond your conclusion which are not ruled out by the premise. Your premises are all purely faith-based and have no objective power necessitating a given conclusion.

      The "points" you made were based in, given your own words, "simple logic." They are neither logical (non sequiturs) or common sense. It is not common sense to believe in that which has no verifiable evidence. It is not common sense to believe in unicorns, leprechauns, santa claus. People do, but it is not common sense.

      "Therefore, if belief is not "proof", then rest assured, "unbelief" is not proof either. And it cannot be otherwise…"
      This is the only accurate thing in your post. There is no "proof" either way. Your claims are faith-based, absent supporting evidence. My counter-claims are simply a recognition of your faith-based claim as having no empirical evidentiary support and no weight to actually warrant your preferred conclusions.

      October 18, 2012 at 3:11 am |
    • Graystone

      Redzoa… You stated "…is nothing but a collection of non-sequiturs"….

      The reality is, that which I said is perfectly sequitur. Only you're too blind to see it…

      October 18, 2012 at 3:15 am |
    • Graystone

      Redzoa… You stated "Your entire first paragraph is more bald as-sertion. No evidence of miracles, just anecdotes and triple hearsay. You erroneously confuse your personal belief with empirical fact."...

      I could say the exact same thing about you, that your unbelief of those facts is nothing more than anecdotes and triple heresay. Where is your proof to the contrary? Oh, I forgot, you don't have any. You think that all because you "don't believe something exists, then it doesn't exist", right? LOL… Maybe you should try listening to your own nonsense….

      As for facts, I have already provide you with all the fact you need (see my previous posts). Only it's not the kind of facts that you are willing to accept. But no surprise there…

      October 18, 2012 at 3:27 am |
    • the AnViL


      your "logic", which you describe as "simple logic" is in fact, simplistic logic.

      you toy with pragmatics like a small child playing with car keys.

      virtually everything you posit is based on a completely unsubstantiated, delusional presupposition.

      but that's OK! it's allowed in religion! it's DEMANDED in xianity.

      in the strictest forms of xianity – all your claims rely entirely on this thing called "religious faith". by all good forms of it (xianity) you MUST rely on this faith in order to be "saved".

      in order for you to be saved by the grace of the half mortal zombie offspring of the imaginary man in the sky – you are compelled to rest your haunches on faith.

      you are a wonderful example of xian faith in action. yay for you! good work!

      religious faith is a lovely warm fuzzy firm belief in something for which you have precisely no evidence and/or evidence that points to the contrary.

      you have no direct evidence of jebus. you have never seen a jebus or met a jebus. all accounts of jebus are anecdotal and hearsay. it comes from a book which is – by your account, true.

      it is true, by your account – because you believe it to be true. you have faith, but faith isn't enough to substantiate your claims.

      you must therefore plainly state: "this is what i believe to be true." you cannot state "this is the truth". once more – it is because you have no direct evidence. and just to be clear: you can believe anything you like – but that won't make the thing you believe true.

      religious faith:

      from your stick of hebrews chapter 11 – verses one through 39... you see... faith faith faith. you have to go on faith. you have to live on faith.

      there it is again in ephesians chapter 2 and then again in romans chapter 4.... over and over – you must live on faith, graystoned. you'll go to hell without it!!!
      you stick to your guns, soldier of jebus. fight the good fight.

      October 18, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • Graystone

      AnVil... you call my logic "simplistic", but obviously it is still too complex for you to understand. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So who's the child?..

      October 18, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • Graystone

      AnVil… Everything I have stated is indeed fact. And it can be verified by doing a simple search on your computer. Just because you personally have no belief in such facts, that doesn't make them unsubstantiated. It only makes you an unbeliever….

      October 18, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • Graystone

      AnVil… Your strategy to draw me into a "faith" argument won't work (something which I have not even been talking about, but you've been talking about aplenty. For example, I have not even been using any scripture. But you have). It is nothing more than a tactic by you to try and avoid the issue. You already know that I've defeated your arguments by using simple logic, and because it's logic you can't defeat you now want to move the argument to faith. But it won't work. Your arguments are still defeated…

      October 18, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
  15. JellyBean

    "Broun, a medical doctor by training, serves on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology." People voted this stooge into office? Just...dayum.

    October 16, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      And this election, they don't have to – he is running unopposed.

      It's a nice life being a Republican Congressman in Georgia – mooching off the people with zero accountability.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
  16. GO_GOP

    A cry to all atheists- come and embrace Christianity and find Jesus and be saved. Surely it is better to be in heaven than in hell after death? Are you atheists so foolish so as not to understand this basic truth?

    October 16, 2012 at 3:56 am |
    • Primewonk

      Another ignorant, fundiot, nutter who is too stupid to understand that Pascal's Gambit was refuted when he first made it. I would hazzard a guess that he is yet another cretin who can't fathom that he suffers from Dunning-Kruger effect.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:20 am |
    • WASP

      @gop: basic truth, science is based on facts; religion on pleasant lies.
      basic truth, humans evolved from a common ancestor as other apes;religion wants you to believe in magic.
      basic truth, science can explain down to the nanosecond what happen after the big bang; religion wants you to believe "god" made plants before he made sunlight.
      basic truth, science understands except for single celled organisims it takes 2 to procreate; religion wants you to have faith in a virgin birth.

      basic truth is religion is nothing but deluded lies.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:40 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      GOOP, hell is being anywhere near you.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:43 am |
    • G8R

      GO-GOP, of course you're a republican. lol Go sell crazy elsewhere, we're all full up here.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:36 am |
    • Yo Goober, where's the meat?

      You know who the real morons are???? The people who think we evolved from monkeys!!!!

      If you believe that we evolved from monkeys then you are a MORON!!!!!!

      Of course what I mean by that is that we didn’t evolve from monkeys at all. We actually evolved from apes. Humans and monkeys just have the same common ancestor.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • fintastic

      @gogoop Where is your evidence that heaven and or hell exist? You're making claims.... lets see some facts to back it up.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:45 am |
    • Which God?

      I did find jeebus. Bought a statue of him for target practice. 30' 06 round took his head clean off. Still waiting for the resurection.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Spencer

      sorry GO_GOP, but the Buddhists made a stronger argument.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
    • the AnViL

      religion is predicate upon ignorance.
      science is predicate upon knowledge.

      religion doesn't require one to read, only blindly accept, under threat of punishment, ancient, bronze-age, tribal-minded, ignorant ideology. religion claims absolute knowledge with no supporting evidence. religion requires blind, ignorant faith.

      science requires hard work. science admits what it does not know. science admits what it cannot know. science happily accepts when its mistaken, and adapts to reflect new data. science provides testable, repeatable, methods to uncover facts and truths.

      through history, there hasn't been one single example of science bending to religion.

      through history, there have been many many examples of science proving religious thinking wrong.

      religion has and will always, bend to science. it will continue to bend until it breaks.

      science never bends to religion.... ever.
      it's always the other way around. to deny this is abject, repugnant ignorance.

      tolerance of religious thinking has to end. it threatens all freedom and all liberty.

      enough is enough

      October 16, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • Yo Goober, where's the meat?

      Please dont insult religion.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • ME II

      Thanks, but no.
      If you had any rational reason to think that either heaven or hell existed, then you might have a point. Since you don't, then you don't.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
    • mama k

      OK, let's see – I asked Chad, and I asked fred and I asked Nii for real proof – you know, outside just words that are in the Bible, that Paul had his little magic time visit with a higher being – you know, that resulted in his "Apostleship". Obviously anything in the Bible is no proof – and especially for Paul since he's the one who wrote most of the Epistles. I also asked Chad if he believe everything Joseph Smith claimed. I see those cases as similar in that you have to just take these characters' word for it that these "special events" actually occurred. It is important in Christianity since many of the kooky tenets they cling to hinge on Paul who, unlike Jesus (the plain man, IMHO) really, was a motor-mouth (and motor-writer). The thing is, Chad, and Nii and fred all just avoided those questions very quickly. Dodge and run, so to speak.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • Nii

      MAMA K
      You want me to look for proof that a long dead guy had a vision? Thats a laugh! When you were an Evangelist didnt you get proof of the supernatural? Ok! Then you should not have been forcing yourself that hard. I believe you once told me that you could sense the love in the faces of the Atheist members of your charity group. Charity and the Spirit behind it is God. When I love people as myself a Presence seems to be with me. For all I know if Paul who was a hateful man became charitable and said he had a vision well I would believe it. If he was still same old Saul of Tarsus I would not sleep with my eyes covered. I would sleep like a fish when he is around.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • Actually

      " Charity and the Spirit behind it is God. When I love people as myself a Presence seems to be with me. "

      You are made up of over 60% water and a scientist has proven that our emotions can affect the out come of that water. When you feel love the water crystals are smooth and full, when you are negative the water crystals are harsh and jagged. So what you are feeling is just the fluids in your body and that affects the area of the brain that makes you feel calm and loved. That is not a God, it's merely you feeling your natural state of being human and an animal on this planet.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • Nii

      MAMA K
      If you have read the other Apostles and Paul very well then you will realize that most of the Doctrines the Church formulated were not their personal philosophy. Paul is innocent of your accusation. Why don't you bury your offense other charity. yes you can forgive dead guys. I am very happy knowing you but it seems there is an emptiness in your soul all the time that sometimes I pray for it to end for you. I hope nobody hounded you out of Church.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "Nii " degenerates to:
      "Salvatore" degenerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Lorraine" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • Nii

      What? Enjoy your evening. Physical observation is not an explanation of spiritual cause. No scientist will give such an explanation. We scientist stay off the case of YHWH FOR A REASON

      October 16, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Nii


      October 16, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • mama k

      Nii wrote: "You want me to look for proof that a long dead guy had a vision?"
      If the tenets of your faith are based on his words, you probably should be checking into the validity of his claim.

      Nii wrote: "When you were an Evangelist . . ."
      I assure you – Mama K was never an Evangelist.

      Nii wrote: "I believe you once told me that you could sense the love in the faces of the Atheist members of your charity group."
      Uh, no. I never said that, however, many atheists do perform charity and have a lot of love that comes to them through nature. I am like that. And it is not your god that gives me those qualities by the way. That is your delusion based on things (rehashed folklore) that you have yet to prove, so that brings us back to square one, doesn't it, dear?

      Nii wrote: "For all I know if Paul who was a hateful man became charitable and said he had a vision well I would believe it."
      I believe you do believe it. There are lot of weak minded people in the world who believe all sorts of things. They don't bother checking into the validity of the "foundations" that supposedly support their beliefs. That brings us back to square one where you avoid providing a good proof to the foundation of the NT, doesn't it dear?

      October 16, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • ME II

      "... scientist has proven that our emotions can affect the out come of that water.."
      I doubt that this is the case, but please cite your source.
      If you are referring to Masaru Emoto's claims, then he has not in any way "proven," nor shown any verifiable evidence, that what he claims is true, at least none that I'm aware of. His photographs are not produced from any kind of controlled experiment, but his own "original think[ing]".
      In his own words, "He undertook extensive research of water around the planet, not so much as a scientific researcher, but more from the perspective of an original thinker." (http://www.masaru-emoto.net/english/emoto.html)

      October 16, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • *


      Are you asserting that all of those screen names are the same person? Please provide your evidence!

      October 16, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • mama k

      I almost missed Nii's 2nd reply in a row to me. I have addressed the first one.

      Nii wrote: [..] "Paul is innocent of your accusation."

      I am not necessarily accusing Paul of anything other than being a chatty Cathy– which has not helped at all those who want to use his words. He might have lived very much like his writings say. And he may very well have eaten some bad food and had a high fever and hallucinated many things. And he may have firmly believed in what he thinks he saw and heard. Or he could have been a charlatan, and had other reasons to make up his story. Either way, we don't have any proof of his "special moment" with his god – that's my point. And that's means its quite a lot of writing that has no foundation upon which we still have very odd tenets that people constantly argue about.

      Nii wrote: "[..] but it seems there is an emptiness in your soul all the time [..]. I hope nobody hounded you out of Church."

      No one hounded me any direction. Love, education and reason amongst my family and fellow citizens are what keep me full of happiness in my old age; you don't need a made-up god – made in man's image, to possess such qualities of nature.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • Spencer

      Actually: its come to our attention that you've never studied chemistry at any level. else you wouldn't be talking about water "crystals" in your body.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
    • ElmerGantry

      Science is questions that might be answered, Religion is answers that are not allowed to be questioned.

      Science builds airplanes, religion flies them into buildings.

      October 19, 2012 at 8:09 am |
  17. the AnViL

    chadtard said: "As my proof, I ask you to cite one law that was ruled unconsti tutional because it had no secular function."

    national day of prayer.

    October 15, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
    • mama k

      Although not a law that was, at some point, ruled unconstitutional, evidently the subject of this article, Paul Broun, proposed failed legislation in May, 2009 that would have proclaimed 2010 "The Year Of The Bible". Thankfully, they nipped that in the bud. Otherwise, I'm sure, had it become law, it would be sitting in the same boat as the ndop.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:24 pm |
    • the AnViL

      funny how they keeeep trying. ignorance is like that – eh?

      you're a goodie, mama k...

      i want to thank you.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Chad

      The challenge to the consti tutionality of the Nation Day of Prayer was unanimously overruled by the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals

      October 15, 2012 at 11:04 pm |
    • Gadflie

      As I pointed out to Chad before, a fine example of such a law is illustrated by Epperson v. Arkansas.

      October 15, 2012 at 11:52 pm |
    • Chad

      Another excellent example:
      In Marsh v Chambers, the Supreme Court considered the constiutionality of Nebraska's practice of beginning each day in its state legislature with a non-denominational prayer. In an opinion relying to an unusual degree on framer's intent, the Court upheld the practice, reasoning that the same First Congress that proposed the Bill of Rights also voted to hire a congressional chaplain and begin its legislative days with a prayer, and therefore could not have intended in the Establishment Clause to have prohibited legislative prayers.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Funny that this reasoning doesn't hold water for you, Chard, when applied to other aspects of law. For example, abortion was legal and even publicly advertised when the Const itution was written. The framers saw no reason to speak to the issue. They never mentioned the fetus in any laws–never guaranteed rights for it.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:47 am |
    • ME II

      "As my proof, I ask you to cite one law that was ruled unconsti tutional because it had no secular function."
      Do you mean other than the precedence setting, Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1970), which established the 3 part Lemon test while striking down a state law?

      October 16, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • The Truth

      "cite one law"

      "the constiutionality of Nebraska's practice of beginning each day in its state legislature with a non-denominational prayer."

      Chad, stop being dishonest. The court ruling you cite had nothing to do with a "law" but had everything to do with whether we allow people to practice what they like even in court procedures. There is NO LAW that says a legislature MUST PRAY before a session but a practice of allowing those who wish to do so, to do so.

      As for the National Day of Prayer, this is not a law demanding all observe, but much like Black History month is not demanding you learn more about Blacks but does draw attention to the subject. I don't mind drawing more attention to the NDOP since sunlight is the best medicine to get rid of mold, mildrew and rotten practices. The more we shine a light on how ineffective, useless and pointless a NDOP is the more people will point and laugh at it which is fine by me. Now if someone tried to pass a law requiring all to pray I think you would see how real Americans feel about such an ignorant practice.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
  18. Evolution is bunk

    When I cut up a pipe to the hot springs ... I got an agate coating on the pipe... Aren,t they supposed to take a million years.
    Hey... I made fossils with my son in the backyard... Out of a pair of gloves. Fossils can be made quickly.
    You can also make petrified wood too! Isn,t petrified wood something that fits in to evolution.
    Pictographs still show humans and dinosaurs...
    What did darwin think of the egg...... He seems to have ...um.."...simplified it a bit
    Why do my shrimp and leaf fossils remain unchanged...

    But just my quick thoughts taking no longer than 2 mins to think about
    Even evolutionists toss out darwins stuff that started it all........
    Why do most national geographic mags from the 30's and 40's support creation?

    Aren't fossils the result of a sudden action?

    October 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
    • Sagant

      How can I make fossils? I want to do this with my son...

      October 15, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • itsallaloadofbollocks

      You certainly didn't make fossils; maybe you're confusing BBQ with fossils.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      Bunk's a Punk!

      Ever heard of radiocarbon dating? Probably not. Here ya go!

      "Radiocarbon, or Carbon-14, dating is probably one of the most widely used and best known absolute dating methods. It was developed by J. R. Arnold and W. F. Libby in 1949, and has become an indispensable part of the archaeologist's tool kit since. Its development revolutionized archaeology by providing a means of dating deposits independent of artifacts and local stratigraphic sequences. This allowed for the establishment of world-wide chronologies. "

      October 15, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
    • Milners mine

      The speaker is right ... You can make fossils.. I checked it out on the web.they are also identical to all other fossils. Thats why there are so many fossil fakes. Carbon dating is also inaccurate.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      @Milners mine
      "The speaker is right ... You can make fossils.. I checked it out on the web.they are also identical to all other fossils. Thats why there are so many fossil fakes. Carbon dating is also inaccurate."

      Please site your sources you Creationist idiot!

      October 15, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
    • Milners mine

      Looks like vocal athiests degree in archeology is as good as a bogus degree in economics Which is also based on an illusion

      October 15, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist


      Cite (not site, sorry) your sources or shut the f up.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:22 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      Face it Milner, the only source you can cite is creationist BS, all a lie, now go away little boy!

      October 15, 2012 at 7:29 pm |
    • Lassider

      How come they dont hedontically adjust evolutions findings. I mean if its good enough for one fictional realm why not the evolUtionary

      October 15, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • Spencer

      And someone doesn't understand the process. AKA coating an object with stone/agate is not fossilization.

      "Pictographs still show humans and dinosaurs.."???? What? since when?

      October 15, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • mama k

      What?? No sources to this claim? I've seen the creationists go quiet a few times today on various things when asked for proof or source citing.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • Evolution is bunk

      You are all wrong fossils can be made check it out for youselves. Common knowledge really. Oh !what about the egg you know darwins theory of the egg.
      You guys should try it to fit all those peices into the missing fossil record.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • Gadflie

      Darwin's theory of the egg? To the best of my knowledge, Darwin said very little about eggs. What exactly are you referring to? As to the rest, I'm calling Poe's law on you.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • mama k

      Evolution is bunk: "You are all wrong fossils can be made check it out for youselves."

      I guess that's code for: this is a ruse.

      October 15, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
    • OneTruth

      bunk. So you're just another creationist with nothing to back up your preposterous claims.

      October 15, 2012 at 9:10 pm |
    • the AnViL

      you aren't making agate or fossils. you're making things that appear to be as such, but will not stand up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation.

      yet another example of d-k

      you're too easy.

      *jacking off*

      October 15, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
    • WASP

      @bunk: this link will help you understand fossils and the various other ways nature preserves living matter.

      however i doubt you would even bother to educate yourself on anything other than what your little preacher man tells you is TRUTH. lmfao
      i don't understand religious people; you folks can accept what your preacher, an uneducated man telling you of fire and brimstone, but can't accept the findings of educated and studied professors and other experts in various fields of science. it is truly mindboggling.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:06 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Isn't stupidity hilarious? Evolution is bunk, you're a hoot.

      Now go back to Outer Bumfvck and take your cretin of a kid with you.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:12 am |
    • fintastic

      @bunk "But just my quick thoughts taking no longer than 2 mins to think about"

      NO! Really?.....

      October 16, 2012 at 11:50 am |
    • The Truth

      It's these types of comments that frustrate anyone with half a brain and make those with less than half a brain finaly feel like they are the smart one in the room, except that they are not and can only giggle and chatter to other half wits about how little they know.

      This poster might as well have said "Gravity is bunk" since even though we have mountains of evidence for it scientists are still debating the details which is why it's still called a theory. But just because someone doesn't believe in gravity does not mean that person will float off the planet. There are mountains of fossil evidence and only a handful of faked fossils which all came from an era of almost no scientific peer review when the fakes were made as any self respecting scientist would never put their reputation and career on the line by backing a fraud.

      Anyone who claims fossils are not real and carbon dating is faked and evolution is some grand conspiracy can go hop on the bus with the flat earthers and heavens gate comet club.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
  19. Kindness

    This is my experience... Thank you.

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    I Accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners. Even once we are saved by christs merciful grace we will still experience adversity to mold us to adhering to the truth.
    We will slip... But not fall of the ship ...carrying us onward to perfection in christs grace.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith ....above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are by faith above reason in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
    Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith’s door,
    And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
    The, looking in, I saw upon the floor
    Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
    “How many anvils have you had,” said I,
    “To wear and batter all these hammers so?”
    “Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
    “The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”
    And so, thought I, the anvil of God’s Word,
    For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
    Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
    The anvil is unharmed – the hammers gone.

    Truth is..exclusive

    October 15, 2012 at 6:29 pm |
    • mama k

      This is a laugh. A whole lot of garbage with Paul references. Of course we know that there is no proof whatsoever that this character Paul had any special conversation with a higher being. It's one of those things where you have to take his word for it (just like Joseph Smith). It is sad because so much of the weird tenets that people still cling to within Christianity stem from this man.

      October 15, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
  20. M

    Previously, creationist Kent Hovind provided work to an anti-evolution piece and it stated that most scientists believe that Lucy (Australopithecus) was just an unusual chimpanzee. That piece is still on a Christian website. I�m in no way a scientist and barely passed my biology class in high school. However, I had a hard time believing that the majority of scientists disagree with such a fundamental part of evolution. I did a quick google search and found nothing that supported Hovind�s claim. To be fair, I did listen to some debates he had with some actual scientists and he claimed that ONE individual backed him up on this and this is noted in a textbook from 1987. I still have a hard time believing that there was anyone who agreed with him but I�ll give him the benefit of the doubt and agree that this one guy did support his claim. But, again, he previously said that most scientists agree with him that Lucy was just a chimpanzee and not one dude.
    So, I went to his blog yesterday (which he still posts to regularly in prison) and asked who were these scientist were in the contact section. I posted my statement to the site and I was in no way disrespectful. It asked more my email, like CNN does and I provided it. If you were to go to his blog, you�ll see that it has been deleted. I have since not received any emails to the question I asked, which of course leads me to believe he or whomever is running his site doesn�t have an answer. It�s one terrible thing to say something that isn�t true but it just makes you look cowardly to delete someone�s post when you�re questioned on it.

    October 15, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist

      Creationists don't have a chance in hell to make any case. All they do is lie and cover it up when they get caught. Buy or rent the DVD Judgment Day about Creationism being science. See how the judge rules in this Dover case. Also, Nova has a new series out now called Being Human and part one they had a segment on Lucy and a recent discovery of Lucy's child (so to speak since it's skeleton is similar but much smaller and a girl) that is 3.3 million years old. Here's a synopsis from their website:

      "Becoming Human Part 1

      Where did we come from? What makes us human? An explosion of recent discoveries sheds light on these questions, and NOVA's comprehensive, three-part special, "Becoming Human," examines what the latest scientific research reveals about our hominid relatives.

      Part 1, "First Steps," examines the factors that caused us to split from the other great apes. The program explores the fossil of "Selam," also known as "Lucy's Child." Paleoanthropologist Zeray Alemseged spent five years carefully excavating the sandstone-embedded fossil. NOVA's cameras are there to capture the unveiling of the face, spine, and shoulder blades of this 3.3 million-year-old fossil child. And NOVA takes viewers "inside the skull" to show how our ancestors' brains had begun to change from those of the apes. '

      October 15, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • M

      I listed to a few debates Hovind partook in and he continually says in EVERY single one of them that evolutionists believe that life came from a rock. Time and time again he is corrected on this and yet he keeps saying this over and over. He either cannot understand what his opponents are saying or he simply does not mind that he is purposely deceiving people.

      October 15, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV


      "evolutionists believe that life came from a rock"

      It's not his fault. It is all he can comprehend. After all, creationists believe that humans came from dirt. Rock / dirt – no real distinction in composition, just arrangement.

      October 15, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • TheVocalAtheist


      Just curious, what is the fascination with Hovind? He's a real nut, a tax evader, liar and money launderer. Sounds just like the rest of the crew, they should all be locked-up.

      October 15, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • M

      Correct me if I am wrong but cant mold grow on non-living things?

      October 15, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • M

      I do not know if that is how life began but when Hovind states that evolutionists believe life came from a rock, I suppose it is him saying that life came from non living things.

      October 15, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • Spencer

      Fun thing though, evolution makes no comment on how life stared on this tiny rock, it only covers what has happened to life since then.

      so, someone arguing that "evolutionists" believe life came from a rock is someone that has no idea what evolution even talks about. As they are really arguing about Abiogenesis.

      October 15, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
    • Veritas

      Evolution is not about origins of life rather it is origin of species. The only origins of life theory that I'm aware of has nothing to do with rocks; the deep sea vent theory posits that life may have begun at submarine hydrothermal vents,

      October 15, 2012 at 7:04 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.