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Romney meets with evangelist Billy Graham
Billy Graham has counseled presidents going back to Harry Truman.
October 11th, 2012
04:44 PM ET

Romney meets with evangelist Billy Graham

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney met with evangelical icon Billy Graham for the first time on Thursday at the evangelist’s remote mountaintop home in North Carolina.

Romney traveled to Graham’s residence in Montreat, just outside Asheville, to meet with Graham and his son Franklin Graham, a high-profile pastor in his own right.

Romney campaign spokesman Rick Gorka told reporters that Romney met with the Grahams for approximately 30 minutes and that they discussed religious freedom, religious persecution and growth of the Grahams’ ministry in China, Sudan and North Korea.

Towards the end of the meeting, according to Gorka, Billy Graham led a prayer for the Romneys, saying "I'll do all I can to help you. And you can quote me on that."

"What impresses me even more than Governor Romney's successful career are his values and strong moral convictions. I appreciate his faithful commitment to his impressive family, particularly his wife Ann of 43 years and his five married sons," Billy Graham said in a statement through a spokesman following the meeting.

"It was a privilege to pray with Governor Romney—for his family and our country. I will turn 94 the day after the upcoming election, and I believe America is at a crossroads. I hope millions of Americans will join me in praying for our nation and to vote for candidates who will support the biblical definition of marriage, protect the sanctity of life and defend our religious freedoms," the evangelist's statement continued.

Graham, 93, has provided counsel to generations of U.S. presidents beginning with Harry S. Truman, and is the founder of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

Staging revivals that he called “crusades” around the world, Graham has reached untold millions of people in person with his message.

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In the United States, his power and reach have transcended partisan politics. He has counseled presidents from both parties and met with President Barack Obama in 2010. Graham was hospitalized for treatment of a pulmonary infection earlier this year.

Romney first met with Franklin Graham, founder of the aid group Samaritan’s Purse, in 2007, when the Mormon White House hopeful was getting know many national evangelical leaders for the first time.

The elder Graham began his missionary work in 1944 when he started speaking at rallies for the Youth for Christ Campus Life ministry. Five years later, Graham was holding crusades in tents in downtown Los Angeles.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Originally scheduled for three weeks, the crusades drew so many followers they were extended to seven.

His "last crusade" in June 2005 drew 230,000 people.

More recently, Billy Graham has weighed in on hot-button issues, including supporting North Carolina's constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, which voters passed earlier this year. This summer, Graham defended the president of the Chick-fil-A restaurant chain for his opposition to same-sex marriage.

Graham has been in and out of local hospitals this year, battling respiratory issues. The pool reporter following Romney added in their report from the meeting, "Billy Graham's voice sounded somewhat weak but he did not look any more frail than his age would suggest."

CNN's Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: 2012 Election • Mitt Romney • Politics

soundoff (518 Responses)
  1. Reality

    Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

    The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

    earlychristianwritings.com/

    For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

    Current RCC problems:

    Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

    Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

    Current problems:
    Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals like the Grahams and atonement theology,

    October 15, 2012 at 8:46 am |
  2. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer really changes things
    Proven

    October 15, 2012 at 6:00 am |
    • Jesus

      You're a proven liar. Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!~..

      October 15, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but everything you have ever asserted regarding atheism and prayer is unfounded. The degree to which your assertions may represent truths is 0.0. To help you understand the degree to which your assertions may represent truths, I will access my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE). Using my IEE module, the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".

      I see that you repeat these unfounded statements with high frequency. Perhaps the following book might help you overcome this problem:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
      by the Alzheimer's Disease Society

      October 15, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 15, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • ElmerGantry

      Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things stated once again and again and again over and over; Ad Nauseum,
      "Prayer changes things"

      Earlier I challenged you to do something positive for humanity by praying to stop the international forced sëx trafficking of an estimatated 800,000 people.

      To wit,

      I see your prayers to stop the estimated 800,000 people who are forced into sëx traficking across international borders have not worked.
      Wait since prayer changes things that means you have not been praying to stop this scourge on humanity.

      Why won't you pray to stop this repulsive human abuse?

      Matthew 21:21:
      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt,not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
      _______________________________________________________________________
      [A true believer can ask a mountain to throw itself into the sea, and it will be done. LOL!]
      _______________________________________________________________________

      Mark 9:23
      All things are possible to him who believes.

      Luke 1:37:
      For with God nothing will be impossible.

      John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

      John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

      John 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.

      Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible.
      So there you have it, straight from Jesus in the New Testament in clear, simple, and unequivocal terms.

      You are a sincere believer are you not?

      So go ahead and do it. Pray to god to eliminate forced international sëx traficking, bacterial disease, genetic disorders, war, famine, etc.

      In Matthew 21:21 Jesus states; I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt you can do anything including making a mountain throw itself into the sea. You do have faith and do not doubt, RIGHT? So do it.

      Or perhaps your faith is not really up to snuff and you know that so you do not prat to end these human scourges but instead only come up with your usual wimpy statements and name calling.

      October 15, 2012 at 11:58 pm |
  3. Abinadi

    22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
    23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
    24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
    25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham, Chapter 3)

    October 14, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • End Religion

      Please learn to walk in the many footsteps of Bilbo. In His name I pray...

      "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty wet hole, filled with the ends of earth worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole, with nothing to sit down on or to eat; it was a hobbit hole, and that means comfort."

      From the book of Bilbo, 1:1

      October 14, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
  4. Kindness

    kindness
    This is my experience... Thank you.

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    I Accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners. Even once we are saved by christs merciful grace we will still experience adversity to mold us to adhering to the truth.
    We will slip... But not fall of the ship ...carrying us onward to perfection in christs grace.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith ....above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are by faith above reason in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

    Truth is.. exclusive.

    October 14, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • Abinadi

      Very insightful. Thank-you. I especially liked the simile about seeing a new color.

      October 14, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • End Religion

      @kindness: "The world denounces truth"

      The world seeks the truth through science. Your delusion is the surrender of truth, which is ignorance.

      ***
      "You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you."

      It is this way because it is an emotionally delusional response to ignorance and fear. Nothing more.

      ***
      "We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter."

      Your sentence makes no sense. Dark matter is a hypothesis, not scientific theory.

      ***
      "Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners."

      False. Sin is a concept derived from your religion, which is a fraud. There is no such thing a sin.

      ***
      "It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said."

      The hardest thing to do, perhaps proven by the need for religion, is to accept we are born and die and that's it. There is no point to existence. There is no afterlife. Many humans simply can't accept this truth and find they need a christ buddy to hold their hand and whisper lies to them about life everlasting – just to get from day to day.

      ***
      "the rullers that rule you through deception."

      You compound the problem by furthering the fraud of religion, the best deception by which to keep you under someone's thumb.

      ***
      "Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment."

      AT least in this you seem to have found success.

      ***
      "Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive."

      Obviously this fictional movie had great impact on your fictional religion.

      ***
      "I tell the truth."

      No, you try to explain your delusion. Describing emotions is tough.

      ***
      "Truth is.. exclusive.

      Belief may be exclusive. Truth is universal, and religion is not in the realm of truth.

      October 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
    • mama k

      Of course Paul was a self-proclaimed "apostle" that helped conflict the NT in many ways. This allows the Christian to speak with a forked tongue about just about anything. That shouldn't even matter since the whole thing is untrustworthy along with its premise being based on rehashed folklore.

      October 14, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • Kev

      I also thought it was very insightfull. You made some very good points to ponder over.

      October 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
  5. Sam Yaza

    fred

    Sam

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26”
    =>Jesus used this language which was common at the time to make a point. That usage is not in dispute and it means you must love God more than your own family. In other similar usage those who love God first receive a new family which consists of the family of God. It is hard yes but whatever you put before God will cause you to stumble. Take note Abraham was tested as to his own son Isaac.

    "i am aware that in the Greek it means love less then" so i wont say it is your own interpretation, just rash words from a wino; and rash words is foolishness and a sin

    There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
    Proverbs 12:18
    Envy, drunkenness, 0rg!3s, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

    i disagree one must put their family above their Deities. I believe it is immoral to do otherwise; what point is their in having God that keeps you from growing up as a person.

    “Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB”
    =>In short the evil one can appear as your own family member. This is a strong warning to immediately put to death any false teaching regardless of who is doing it. One rotten apple will spoil the batch which is a theme in the Bible. That is good advice just as you take out a cancer in your body before it kills the entire body.

    and look at your self justify killing other people for worshiping other gods; what make your god more right then another, his words,... because his deeds are already proven evil; and even a liar says hes not a liar. i agree your Gods a cancer time to get ride of him; i mean his evil created Atheist (spiritually blind, deaf, anosmia-ic, and numb people" because of his evil they think all God are evil. never the less king your own family member because he found a personal connecting with another God/Goddess; is just morally reprehensible, by you justifying it makes you morally reprehensible

    “Zechariah 13:3 NAB) “
    =>the Bible repeats important stuff. This is important. Now, remember it applied to a Talliban like mentality 3,000 years ago. Evil and false teachers that would rob your soul should be put to death (You can also kill an evil thought or evil way of life). This physical example of old is applies figuratively today. Few sane individuals believe it should be a physical killing these days. These verses do not apply outside of the peoples it was directed. When the Sanhedrin killed Stephen they were of the wrong stonning mentality."

    so if you don't agree "kill them or the ideas"

    A: nice immorality buddy

    having a close mind is never a good thing, why don't you try understanding why they do the stuff they do, and show a little c0mp@ss!0n for people who are just acting up because their hurting inside.

    “Judges21”
    You missed the boat on this one totally. If you conclude with Judges 21:25 you see these Israelites had no King as “everyone did as they saw fit”. In other words when you abandon God and come up with your own stupid stuff sin is rampant. God did not approve.
    These verses are nothing more than an accounting of bad people doing bad things. Like Hitler being a Christian somehow makes God responsible for what Hitler did to innocent people."

    What part of god told them did you not understand

    October 14, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      CNN the only place in the world were c.o.m.p.a.s.s.i.o.n is a bad word

      October 14, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • fred

      Sam
      What you are doing is sorting through the Bible looking for ways to nail Christ to the Cross. This has already been done. There is a reason Christ said “it is finished” at the Cross and gave up His Spirit. The reason is that the sting of death was removed and all that want can have eternal life with God in Christ.
      If you do not believe in God that is one thing but at least do not believe for the right reasons. Take a look at what school and the media has taught everyone these days. We have been taught to twist and take anything and everything out of context if it suits your personal need (profit, fame, immorality, power etc.). We are all skeptics on MSNBC or mockers like John Stewart / Cobern. Keep your perspective.
      The Bible must be taken as a whole because it moves from the accounts of Moses about 1400 BC through about AD 110 the accounts of the apostles. Try not to take verses out of context or time and culture of writing. Some Christians abused slaves and Christians in the days of Hitler abused Jews while claiming God demanded it. We know this was not the case and we know it was people taking words and twisting them for their own evil deeds. This twisting is at all reflective on Christ. When the Catholic Church abused boys Christ or God was not the abuser the priests responsible were the abuser.
      When God cleared the land of all evil humans by a flood God was not a killer. It is a story about a sudden and fearful end is coming to those who do not follow God into an eternal place of safety prepared for them in advance. You do not need to listen to the warning most people never did and never will as it is our nature. When a earthquake results in the death of 20,000 men, women and children did the earth kill them, is the earth a evil killer? You should consider why you make such attachments to God that do not apply for the non believer.
      Have you not noticed that a true believer gets the true picture while the rest see only what they want to see? Better yet everyone sees what they want to see. Believers see God taking them safely in a boat across the flood to the mountain top in Gods loving arms. Non believers see a killer God, a foolish story book and foolish believers. Now if there is such a thing as good and evil which group has its roots in good and which group in evil ?

      October 15, 2012 at 9:34 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian...

      October 15, 2012 at 11:18 am |
    • Sam Yaza

      "There is a reason Christ said “it is finished” at the Cross and gave up His Spirit. ...The Bible must be taken as a whole because it moves from the accounts of Moses about 1400 BC through about AD 110 the accounts of the apostles. "

      contradiction you lose

      fist your saying ignore the bad in the bible then you say take it as a whole, you lose don't pass go

      October 15, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      "We know this was not the case and we know it was people taking words and twisting them for their own evil deeds."
      are you saying what is written in the bible is not gods words? so if the bible can be twisted and change to suit some one, then the inter thing is fallible, thus not the words of God
      god cannot be fallible?

      the bible must be taking as a whole it ether is or isn't ether everything is or nothing is.

      October 15, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
  6. 94gtstang

    I'll just leave this here http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/10/its-gods-word-until-its-convenient-for-them-to-change-it/

    October 14, 2012 at 1:13 pm |
  7. niknak

    Those are three really creepy looking people.
    Gramm looks like that creepy preacher from the Poltragiste movie.
    You fundies have inbred to the point you don't even look human anymore.

    October 14, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
    • correctlycenter

      "The wicked concieve evil; they are pregnant with trouble and give birth to lies. They dig a pit to trap others and then fall into it themselves. They make trouble, but it backfires on them. They plan violence for others, but it falls on their own heads. I will thank the Lord because He is just; I will sing praise to the name of the LORD Most High." Psalm 7: 14-17...

      October 14, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • mama k

      More junk from Gullible's Travels I see. (correctlycenter)

      October 14, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
  8. Bootyfunk

    billy graham, king of all evangelical swindlers... listen to the nixon tapes where he's agreeing with nixon that something has to be done about the jews. graham sad "all h.omos.exuals should be castrated." why spend time on this turd? just flush him.

    October 13, 2012 at 5:05 pm |
    • Boulderdash Gentile

      With all or many of the religiously prone people seeking spiritual enlightenment in the eyes of fixated TV personages it is of little wonder that many are being preyed upon by false teachers and sent their way along without resolute evidence portraying any Godly mannerisms to covet let alone admire toward and let alone admonish with dexteritualism any prudence the ponderings of Godliness being one's austerities for life and living it.

      October 13, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      dexteritualism – I call Poe on this one.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
    • Captain Gibson

      Burn in hell!

      October 14, 2012 at 12:16 am |
  9. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things .

    October 13, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      actions cause change; prayer wastes valuable time.

      unclasp your hands, get up off your knees, go outside, think for yourself and put those hands to use helping others.
      congratulations, you're now a better person.

      October 13, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • truth be told

      @footybunk
      You unfortunately are not. You remain a useless burden on society and an unneeded waste on the planet.

      October 13, 2012 at 5:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      He could be brain-dead and he'd have more to offer the world than you ever will, you fvcktard, Turd.

      Have you looked up the word "gall" yet, sh!t-for-brains? I did it for you so you could see what a complete dolt you are. Gaul   [gawl] Show IPA
      noun
      1.
      an ancient region in W Europe, including the modern areas of N Italy, France, Belgium, and the S Netherlands: consisted of two main divisions, one part S of the Alps (Cisalpine Gaul) and another part N of the Alps (Transalpine Gaul).
      2.
      Latin, Gallia. a province of the ancient Roman Empire, including the territory corresponding to modern France, Belgium, the S Netherlands, Switzerland, N Italy, and Germany W of the Rhine.
      3.
      an inhabitant of the ancient region of Gaul.
      4.
      a native or inhabitant of France.
      -–

      Definition of GALL

      1
      a : bile; especially : bile obtained from an animal and used in the arts or medicine
      b : something bitter to endure
      c : bitterness of spirit : rancor
      2
      : brazen boldness coupled with impudent assurance and insolence

      ---

      Now slink off to your hovel and hang your empty head in well-earned shame.

      October 13, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but everything you have ever asserted regarding atheism and prayer is unfounded. The degree to which your assertions may represent truths is 0.0. To help you understand the degree to which your assertions may represent truths, I will access my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE). Using my IEE module, the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".

      I see that you repeat these unfounded statements with high frequency. Perhaps the following book might help you overcome this problem:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
      by the Alzheimer's Disease Society

      October 13, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • truth be told

      I am officially changing my screen name to "truth be turd". Even if I accidentally post as "truth be told" please only refer to me henceforth as "truth be turd".

      October 13, 2012 at 11:34 pm |
    • creepy suzette

      okee dokee truth be turd

      October 13, 2012 at 11:37 pm |
    • rick

      tbt continues to be a mouthy gash

      October 14, 2012 at 3:58 am |
    • truth be turd

      Rick, be careful or I will Rick Roll you, proving that God exists.

      October 14, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • TR6

      @ truth be told: "@footybunk You unfortunately are not. You remain a useless burden on society and an unneeded waste on the planet."

      How very Christian of you to say so. Your father in heaven must be so proud of you!

      October 14, 2012 at 6:12 pm |
    • truth be told

      God already knows how useless you both are, it is not a state secret and does not do either of you any good to politely pretend you have some value.

      October 14, 2012 at 6:36 pm |
    • sam stone

      Well, lookie here, another Jeebus fondler talking trash. TBT is writing checks with his mouth that he cannot cash. Go up and meet Jeebus. He is full engorged and waiting for your silky mouth......

      October 14, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hey, Turdy, did you manage to wrap your two brain cells around the difference between "gall" and "Gaul?" No? I'd think any real bible-bumbler would already know what "gall" is; I do and I'm an agnostic atheist. Why are you so ignorant about your own bible?

      October 14, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
  10. back when Billy G got around a little more . . .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuet7GRv7Bo

    October 13, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      dead ringer. seriously.

      October 13, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
  11. Bob

    jim, your post is stupid. We can reasonably expect a higher moral standard from those who spout about one that they claim to get from their sky fairy. Hiding religion's evils behind charity is a centuries-old game.

    And "Billy Franklin", yeah, I'm sure you know him well...

    October 13, 2012 at 10:42 am |
  12. cybele

    Paying alms to your preacher? What did Jesus say to those who were to spread his word?, "Become rich and live in mansions while your brother starves".

    October 13, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • Bob

      And god also said you don't even get to eat that goat that you have to sacrifice and burn for him.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  13. snowboarder

    "American evangelical Christian evangelist, William Franklin “Billy” Graham, Jr., has a net worth of $25 million."

    that is all i need to know about billy graham.

    October 13, 2012 at 9:26 am |
    • jim

      I'm always amazed why people expect preachers to be poor financially. These same people have no problem with business men, Vegas casino owners, Large scale farmers, etc, etc, well you get the picture. Now we all know there are Elmer Gentry's in the world. Always have been, always will, but to make such a comment as "that's all I need to know". Actually their is a lot more you need to know. Such as how many hundreds of thousands of women, and children are feed each year through the "www.samaritanspurse.org One of many organisation over the years started by either, Billy, or his son Franklin. One of my best friends has travel from Chili, to Haiti, to the Sudan working with Samaritans Purse feeding the poor. He has related stories of Franklin standing shoulder, to shoulder with him in over 100 degree weather passing out food to hungry people. It's so easy to find fault when you don't take to time to get to know someone. I know these people, and I have the up most regard for them. I for one am glad God has blessed Billy Franklin with financial blessings. I personally think he deserves more then anyone I know. And I hope God blesses you.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:13 am |
    • Bob

      jim, your post is quite stupid. We can reasonably expect a higher moral standard from those who spout about one that they claim to get from their sky fairy. Hiding religion's evils behind charity is a centuries-old game.

      And "Billy Franklin", yeah, I'm sure you know him well...

      October 13, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • End Religion

      @jim: "I'm always amazed why people expect preachers to be poor financially."

      because they are supposed passing on the word of god. Jesus preached to give every possession away. One would think, those in the position to theoretically best pass on god's word would live by it. But they don't. Even preachers know religion is bullshit. They recognize its not only a great racket to rake in the bucks, but while they fleece you, you will defend them - and then go convert others to come get fleeced.

      ***
      "Actually their is a lot more you need to know."

      such as the difference between their and there.

      ***
      "He has related stories of Franklin standing shoulder, to shoulder with him in over 100 degree weather passing out food to hungry people."

      Clearly you do not understand marketing when you see it.

      ***
      "I for one am glad God has blessed Billy Franklin with financial blessings. I personally think he deserves more then anyone I know. And I hope God blesses you."

      Of course you're glad to see Billy rolling in dough. Hey, it might be against god's word, but what the heck, who really pays attention to that anyway?

      If religion is about following god's word, you should be condemning Billy. If religion is instead only about "doing good things" then you do not need a club like christianity just to do those good things.

      October 13, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
  14. atomD21

    What I find the most interesting in all of this campaign is that the evangelicals who all along would have said that Mormonism is a cult are now rallying behind Romney and basically ignoring that they believe he and all members of his religion are going to hell for rejecting the mainstream version of things.

    October 13, 2012 at 5:25 am |
    • snowboarder

      in all but the truly fanatical, pragmatism trumps religion.

      October 13, 2012 at 9:24 am |
  15. Reality

    Only for the new members of this blog:

    Graham and his son should first apologize for ripping off their "non-profits" with their combined salaries of $1.2 million/yr.

    And it is all a con job!! Both should be sued for selling a historically and theologically flawed religion !

    October 13, 2012 at 12:11 am |
  16. waitasec

    why is this even close to being news worthy.
    there hasn't been a sunday that goes by where delusional people meet and don't conspire to control the acts of others in some way...

    October 12, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
  17. waitasec

    why is this even close to being news worthy.
    there hasn't been a sunday that goes where delusional people meet and don't conspire to control the acts of others in some way...

    October 12, 2012 at 8:47 pm |
  18. STOP EVANGELIC TERRORISTS, Human be aware of hindu filthy dog's of hindu Atheism, self center ism , DENIAL OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD.

    Billy ism, foul smelling, goon, denier of truth absolute GOD. ALLAH is coming.

    October 12, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • randy

      Allah and mohammad are false. They are liars and followers of the Devil.

      October 12, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
    • rick

      randy: you have no more authority than anyone else to declare what is false.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • cybele

      There is no need to yell, God sees all. All humyns of every race and each gender are children of the Creator. It loves none over the other. All of us decendents of the great Eve as first Mother. Be well dear

      October 13, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • Sam Yaza

      wha~~ Cybele tell me its not true, that the fist Mother is calling eve the fist mother.

      your supposed to be Cybele, the fist mother of Anatolian what is now called the Turks.

      October 14, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      but are we talking biblical Eve or Mitochondrial Eve

      i don't have Biblical Eavah in my blood

      my mother is Morrígan, I'm actually proud of that

      October 14, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • sam stone

      randy: and you are a pompous dweeb claiming to know the mind of god.

      October 14, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
  19. jettsmom

    he hasn't been elected and he visits billy graham for advice this man has no soul he is the antichrist, my god the audacity

    October 12, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      That's rude! There is much evil in the world and much opposition to good. Shouldn't we combine our strength and fight for the right?

      October 12, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @The Mockingjay

      And exactly how do you define evil? By your religion?

      October 12, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • End Religion

      hey, tell Jett I said, "Thanks for the pot!"

      October 12, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      one mans evil is another mans Good

      October 12, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      Hawaii and Sam, so you think that good and bad is defined by a person's point of view? That sounds peculiarly like the Roman legal philosophy of justification. The Romans did not have the ten commandments so a person's guilt or innocence was defined by his ability to justify his actions through argument. Trouble is, it didn't work. A person could justify himself based on his ability to argue (that gave rise to the liberal arts colleges) so, a person who could argue well had a tendency to win which gave an enormous advantage to rich and well educated people.

      October 12, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      A much better and fairer way to determine good and bad, guilt or innocence, is to have laws or commandments set forth by God. Since God gives them, men can not argue that they are just someone's point of view or opinion. Nobody can argue with God. So, everyone and everything is judged by the same standard and the judgement is fair.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      No, societal norms of 'good' and 'bad' cannot be defined by an individual. They are consensual and develop in a culture over time. No matter how you slice it, morality is relative – not absolute. It is not defined by burning bushes and graven tablets.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Mockingjay,

      if morality can only come from God (and specifically in your case via Moses) how did the countless cultures of the world that were never exposed to Judaism come up with a pretty similar set of moral terms.

      We can all figure out that stealing, lying and killing is wrong – without the burning bush.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Mockingjay

      LOL so in other words, irrespective of the truth of whether a god exits, we should just assume so for the sake of moral commandments only followed by the believers in that god anyway? Congrats, you have just described a a completely irrational and immoral system based on totalitarianism, fear, and lies.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:12 pm |
    • sam

      "A much better and fairer way to determine good and bad, guilt or innocence, is to have laws or commandments set forth by God."

      LOL Oh man, Mockingjay.That's hilarious.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      i'm a pagan so yes my point of view is vary roman, if not Celtic

      October 12, 2012 at 7:15 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      Also, would you say that the demon who abducted a 10 year old girl in Colorado and cut her into pieces would be innocent from his own point of view? He could probably justify it in a whole bunch of ways from his own point of view. So, it sounds like you saying there is no evil, because it just depends on your point of view.

      22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 28)

      October 12, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Mockingjay

      Congrats on building a straw man argument while not even having the courtesy to say who you're addressing.

      October 12, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Mockingjay,

      This is delusional: Absolute morality vs.'anyone can do anything they want'.

      These are not the only alternatives. Were you paying attention?

      October 12, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • fred

      GOPer
      “if morality can only come from God (and specifically in your case via Moses) how did the countless cultures of the world that were never exposed to Judaism come up with a pretty similar set of moral terms.”

      =>Moses was born in 1526 BC a long time after the standards of good and evil were given to the first generations of Adam and Eve. Your argument needs to go back to the beginning of man (the one made in the image of God not simply a prior assumed ancestor)

      October 12, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Yes that whole "Obey=good, learn=bad" was such a nice system.

      October 12, 2012 at 8:17 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Right
      Again you prove the Bible to be true yet you are completely unaware that you are being a witness for God. Adam had only one clear instruction of what not to do and everything else was wonderful and perfect. This is proof against the social evolutionists that out of thin air claim morality evolved from animals over time. Man is the one animal that does good and evil with or without limitations from God. Darwin is the one that got it wrong because our ancestry is from Adam and Eve and we inherited this sin nature. Animals do not go about doing good and evil they just do what animals do. We do wrong when we know it is wrong and often in spite of known consequences.
      Please go find and animal and surround it with everything it needs then put something in its cage that it knows will cause death. Only man tempts death and by reason will justify death is not that bad …..There is no proof that death is a bad thing. Yes good=obey and learn=bad in this case. Or like the Serpent in the Garden you could say death is just a nice peaceful sleep I think I will ignore God.

      October 12, 2012 at 8:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Thank you for finally admitting that to you, blind obedience is your idea of absolute good. I'd rather think, and be a good person because I feel it is an imperative to further the species as a whole, rather than "god told me to, I'm a robot".

      October 12, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      No, the assumption is based on the given attributes of God which is goodness. I could get into the Holy part but first we need to understand goodness. Goodness means that no matter what we think the end result is better than we could imagine because it is an absolute good with the presence of evil.
      That is where Adam and Eve were (story or real ) placed. In a perfect garden with everything around being good actually very good as the words go. You are not a robot you can play for eternity with all the very good. Only a warning stay away from one thing and one thing only that is very obvious. Again, no robot here you can choose death or all the other imaginable pleasures in the whole world.

      October 12, 2012 at 9:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Acceoting the given attribute is merely an assumption. Your very assumption is based on an assumption. Not to mention the assumption that god exists at all.

      October 12, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
    • fred

      We both proceed through life heading towards sure death with assumptions about what then. Just as you have yet to present an argument based on acceptable scientific evidence concerning the afterlife neither have I. That is because we must trust something that cannot be seen without faith. Now if neither of us have evidence then our belief based on an assumption is what we trust. You assume a default position and I assume a default position. Until that unknown is known scientifically then I go with what has been passed down thru the ages while you hold onto a current trend that began about 200 – 400 years ago.

      October 12, 2012 at 10:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      So Pascal's Wager. Got it. You just rely on a false dichotomy, and a hope that you can fool your god.

      October 12, 2012 at 10:08 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Also not to mention that we have evidence that consciousness is tied to a functioning brain.

      October 12, 2012 at 10:09 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      A "functioning brain"? What the fvck would ferdy the fvcktard know about THAT?

      October 12, 2012 at 10:11 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      We did this yesterday. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is an allegory to explain why morality is intrinsic to ALL societies to bronze age people. And anyway, the first humans came out of the trees in Africa – not the fertile cresent.

      The fact that it varies in the specifics from culture to culture AND varies over time within one culture demonstrates that it is RELATIVE!

      You never responded to me on this topic a couple of days ago:

      Adultery was punishable by death (and not just by the Sanhedrin, but in Mosaic law) – it's not now!
      Leviticus 20:10
      "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

      Slavery was permitted by God in the OT – it's not now!
      Leviticus 25:44
      'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

      Morality CANNOT be absolute if it changes. It changes, therefore, morality is RELATIVE!

      October 12, 2012 at 10:14 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "Only a warning stay away from one thing and one thing only that is very obvious."

      Why the warning (actually a proscription, and not a warning)? Adam and Eve don't realize that disobedience is wrong – they haven't eaten of the fruit of the tree of good and evil yet? They are 'as children'. They don't know right from wrong until they eat the fruit.

      Why does God jump out and say "gottcha" if they didn't know any better? Why was it their fault?

      Why did God put the serpent in the Garden if the Garden was "perfect". (Clearly talking serpents / Lucifer / Satan / Beelzebub / etc in the Garden is less than perfect.)

      October 12, 2012 at 10:20 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      If you have found evidence that consciousness is tied to the brain then you have evidence that there is a soul incorporated with the flesh. Many religious arguments include differentiation between spirit, soul and body. That should send you the other direction. I would love to see the data on that. Please send me the link-thanks

      October 12, 2012 at 11:19 pm |
    • fred

      GOPer
      “We did this yesterday. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is an allegory to explain why morality is intrinsic to ALL societies to bronze age people.”

      =>what? There were two trees in that Garden just as there are two accounts of Genesis two sons Cain and Able just as there were two sons of Abraham and the list goes on until you find two criminals hanging by Jesus. God gives you a twofer and you get tripped up on one tree?
      If you want to just hang out under that one tree then sin is the common ancestry of man. Evolutionists love to display their tree of ancestry and because of this you have associated social evolution with morality that evolves with societies. Tell me are you aware of any other living animal that has evolved morality? You cannot have it both ways either we are evolving animals or we fell under the same tree. If there is a point where I think we could take down the Bible it would be under that tree. What did Eve find desirous about that tree when all the other trees were very good and beautiful? Good and evil were never in that tree evil was hiding behind that tree. Eve made in the image of God was given reason and that reason made her doubt the Word of God. You and hawaiiguest doubt the word of God so you have been shut out from the Garden. Reason was a gift from God so you could appreciate the wonder and joy that is before you.
      The next two characters on the scene were Cain and Able. Good and not so good. What did God say in his warning to Cain – “sin is crouching behind the door it desires to have you but you must master it.” Morality is not 50 bullet points on the latest CNN screen it is accepting or rejecting the Word of God.

      Wake up God spoke the universe into existence. God could have chosen any method (including evolution) but he chose to speak it and it was so. That is not allegory it is a simple in your face “hello GOPer listen to me I am telling you something”

      October 12, 2012 at 11:55 pm |
    • fred

      Tom Tom
      As intellegent as you are with all your gifts of reason why do you listen to that serpent behind the tree? Take a look at that other tree, there is nothing hidden behind that one.

      October 12, 2012 at 11:58 pm |
    • fred

      GOPer
      “And anyway, the first humans came out of the trees in Africa”
      =>Stick around another 20 years and we will have another location. How is it that we are always sure this is the tree and then we find the next one. Solomon was of great mind and he finally figured it all out….if there is no God it is vanity, all vanity.

      “The fact that it varies in the specifics from culture to culture AND varies over time within one culture demonstrates that it is RELATIVE!”
      =>really, can you think of some new immorality that was not on the table 10,000 years ago? People change but there will always be a remnant that walks in the presence of God. Not that long ago only Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Now, as an allegory we are living out the days exactly as described. God gave Noah an Ark to carry his family to the promise , the Hebrew the Arc to carry around the presence of God with them and Christ left us with the Holy Spirit dwelling in our heart as the temple. 10,000 year old words from God all say the same thing; culture after culture demonstrate their relative immorality regardless of God or no God in their midst but a few always hear and follow their hearts not the reasons of the culture around them.

      October 13, 2012 at 12:19 am |
    • fred

      GOPer
      “You never responded to me on this topic a couple of days ago: Adultery was punishable by death (and not just by the Sanhedrin, but in Mosaic Law) – it's not now!
      Leviticus 20:10”
      =>Jesus said to the women caught in adultery “….and neither do I condemn you now go and sin no more”
      God has not changed; the standards of God have not changed. God did not kill Adam on the spot or Cain on the spot or the women caught in adultery on the spot. As to Leviticus 20:10 perhaps you need to go back to the garden and visit the words of the serpent “did God really say that?”

      October 13, 2012 at 12:34 am |
    • Sam Yaza

      i also know that in ancient Rome there were unjustifiable crimes

      so your argument is invalid

      man does not need a God for morality, its constructed by individuality, and moral norms are created by shared point of view

      October 13, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • fred

      Sam
      So exactly what was it that stopped your nasty immoral Roman Empire? The Greek pederasty? Hitler ? Stalin? Mao?
      This is not new even Moses had to wipe out the Amalekites, Cannanites and Moabites. Your "evolved" immorality always exhausts the patience of God and then absolute morality is again visable for a period of time.

      October 13, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      fred i know your god does not like reason; he is an unreasonable tyrant. but genocide is one of those unreasonable crimes, and your god will pay for his impedance and murders, remember what Manannan~ "there will come a time when your god and your Christ will become as us" basically your god will be like the fairies to, just another laughing stock.

      i have no patience for your God, he is the Lord of destruction, hatred and lies. that's your trinity.

      Father/Yahweh = Destruction
      Son/Jesus = Lies
      holy spirit/ Metatron = Hatred

      October 13, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      also

      Fred

      Hitler was a christian ? Stalin was a selfist ? Mao was a Stalinist?

      and are you actually justifying genocide of the Amalekites because your god wanted it, isn't that what Hitler did when he tried to kill the Jews, Hitler would have one if god old Neo-Pagan America didn't step in, and if he won you would have said it was gods will, i mean you probably would be supporting it like 95% of Americas Christians were. the other 5% were secular Christians

      October 13, 2012 at 10:14 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "Tell me are you aware of any other living animal that has evolved morality?"

      Yes. My dog knew when it was being good and when it was being bad and frankly it was a bit of a dummy, even by dog standards.

      There were times where it hesitated between doing the 'right' thing and the 'naughty' thing. I can't know, but it sure behaved like it was choosing whether to be good or bad.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "can you think of some new immorality that was not on the table 10,000 years ago?

      yes – bioethics. There are hundreds of moral decisions we have to decide to make.

      We have cloned animals. Should we clone humans?
      We have bio-engineered plants and livestock. Should we bio-engineer humans?

      There is nothing in the bible about cloning.
      There is nothing in the bible about bioengineering.

      We're making our morality up as we go along.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:26 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "There were two trees in that Garden"

      Source please.

      Genesis 2.
      16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
      17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

      the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is singular. Obviously there are other trees, but no other special ones.

      Genesis 2:2
      "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

      Again, "the tree", singular.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm |
    • fred

      Sam
      Call it what you will but that is not God you are referring to. I do not know your angle or hatred against God but we need to look at exactly what we have. I really do not know a lot about the Amalekites, Canaanites and Moabites other than what the Bible says. Now, I do know is the character and attributes of God because those are repeated over and over again throughout the Bible. Given those attributes God is just and loving. That being the case the end position for all concerned is that it was for the best.

      October 13, 2012 at 10:40 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      fred

      you and i are reading totally different bibles, judging from the book he is Jealous, capricious and indignant.

      and since i know the f4ck3r personally. i would say my judgment is better

      October 13, 2012 at 10:47 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      but since you said just and loving allow me to elaborate

      just = Judges 21:

      here is some excerpts
      So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

      The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

      Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

      loving =
      If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

      If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

      If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTtgVSxfr5M

      October 13, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
    • fred

      GOPer
      Agreed I can’t know what your dog was processing either and many Christians are concerned their dog will not make it to heaven. There are dogs that on occasion eat their young but that is rare in the domesticated versions. A lion will kill other cubs not his own and we assume it is to assure his blood line. If we cannot assume right and wrong was the result of social evolution in your dog how can we assume it was social evolution in humans?

      “yes – bioethics. There are hundreds of moral decisions we have to decide to make.”
      =>nothing new here you have a choice to focus on God or self and we are back to the tree. I believe you think that divine morality is all about a list of do’s and don’ts. It is not about the list but the creator of the list. A first level choice must be made about the creator otherwise all other choices may or may not be on the list and if they were or were not on the list your actions were not with the right motive anyway.

      “Should we clone humans?”
      =>if you are making up your own morality as you go along what difference would it make? If there is no God how would your manmade human look and act compared with that clone if you knew God?
      That is the point of morality not blue eyes, mega man or super hot.

      October 13, 2012 at 11:06 pm |
    • fred

      GOPer
      There were many trees in the Garden that were pleasing and good to eat with the exception of one that was specially pointed out.
      Genesis 3: 22 regarding the two trees (knowledge of good and evil was one the other tree of life):
      22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

      Genesis 2:9 the two trees:
      9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

      October 13, 2012 at 11:17 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      thank you for the Genesis 2:9 reference. That reference is clear but it still doesn't make a point.

      They are only told not to eat of one – the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see what the "tree of life" has to do with anything since it is apparently also forbidden – without any instruction not to eat of it:

      Genesis 3.
      22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
      23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
      24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east sidee of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

      October 13, 2012 at 11:31 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "if you are making up your own morality as you go along what difference would it make?"

      All the difference in the world @fred.

      Separate from your faith, you simply refuse to see that people make up their morality to live harmoniously with each other. We don't want to mess up our lives and our species by doing horrible biological things to ourselves.

      October 13, 2012 at 11:35 pm |
    • fred

      Sam

      “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26”
      =>Jesus used this language which was common at the time to make a point. That usage is not in dispute and it means you must love God more than your own family. In other similar usage those who love God first receive a new family which consists of the family of God. It is hard yes but whatever you put before God will cause you to stumble. Take note Abraham was tested as to his own son Isaac.

      “Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB”
      =>In short the evil one can appear as your own family member. This is a strong warning to immediately put to death any false teaching regardless of who is doing it. One rotten apple will spoil the batch which is a theme in the Bible. That is good advice just as you take out a cancer in your body before it kills the entire body.

      “Zechariah 13:3 NAB) “
      =>the Bible repeats important stuff. This is important. Now, remember it applied to a Talliban like mentality 3,000 years ago. Evil and false teachers that would rob your soul should be put to death (You can also kill an evil thought or evil way of life). This physical example of old is applies figuratively today. Few sane individuals believe it should be a physical killing these days. These verses do not apply outside of the peoples it was directed. When the Sanhedrin killed Stephen they were of the wrong stonning mentality.

      “Judges21”
      You missed the boat on this one totally. If you conclude with Judges 21:25 you see these Israelites had no King as “everyone did as they saw fit”. In other words when you abandon God and come up with your own stupid stuff sin is rampant. God did not approve.
      These verses are nothing more than an accounting of bad people doing bad things. Like Hitler being a Christian somehow makes God responsible for what Hitler did to innocent people.

      October 14, 2012 at 12:02 am |
    • fred

      GOPer
      No, they were not forbidden to eat from any tree (actually everything in the Garden was good and pleasing) only that one particular tree that both Adam and Eve clearly knew. Their choice was simple God provides everything good (actually very good is the word) for man including strong warning of what is not good. In this case only one tree was not Good “do not eat or you die” They had to intentionally reject what was very good for man, God.
      The choice is always simple.

      October 14, 2012 at 12:18 am |
    • fred

      GOPer
      In that garden you have absolute morality with God. All was very good in that garden for man except doubting God. You can take that a step further as Adam and Eve doubted the Word of God ‘do not eat from that one tree”. We forget God is very Holy and cannot be in the presence of sinful man (kicked him out). Once again absolute morality is only with God as only God is good. Man did not have absolute morality only lack of opportunity. Bingo the tree was opportunity and sin entered into the ancestry of all mankind. Up to that point there were no moral decisions or immoral actions as all was in accordance with the will of God and it was very good.
      Yes, they could have taken from the tree of life as that was included in the choices that were very good.
      Once sin entered they were blocked from the tree of life and all the very good of the Garden.

      October 14, 2012 at 12:38 am |
    • fred

      GOPer
      Back to two trees. These two trees speak of Gods omnipotence and omnipresence. Before Adam sinned the redemption from that sin was already planted. The tree of life is symbolic of Christ that offers eternal life for fallen sinful man. Adam had free will and God already had in place a plan of redemption.
      Take Cain and Able we are not given a list that makes Cain immoral. Cain simply chose not to live in the presence of God. Cain was evil and Able was Good.
      The two criminals on the Cross with Christ (Luke 23 :39-43) one was evil and the other good. The good desired to be in the presence of God is the key. In the presence of God is where you find morality if morality is related to good and evil, right and wrong.
      That is the theme of good and evil in the Bible. Murder, adultery etc. are all sins but only one stands out which is rejection of God. That is the difference between good and evil. All the other sins are only symptoms of rejecting God.

      October 14, 2012 at 1:09 am |
    • redzoa

      If God is omniscient, there is no Free Will. All final and ultimate mortal decisions are perfectly foreknown before the mortal ever exists. If the mortal has a choice between A and B, but God already knew the choice would be B, then the mortal had no choice but to manifest God's perfect foreknowledge. If the mortal could actually chose A, then God's foreknowledge would be imperfect and God would not be God. That the mortal is unaware that their choice must ultimately comply with God's perfect foreknowledge is immaterial to whether or not the alternative choice could actually be made.

      But for fred, this likely isn't an issue. He already views humans as fleshy robots. fred believes obedience to God's commands, whatever they are, is "good." fred has no morality, only subjectively perceived obedience to subjectively perceived divine edicts. Arguing with fred about morality is akin to arguing with a Nuremberg trial defendant about their participation in the holocaust. In both cases, the outcomes, the suffering, etc, are irrelevant because, in their view, it's the subjective belief in "good" authority that controls whether or not the behavior was actually "good."

      October 14, 2012 at 3:10 am |
    • fred

      Redzoa
      To the contrary when I make wrong choices there is a consequence to self and others. Only when proceeding in the will of God do all things work for the good of those who believe.
      Now, as to free will The Tree of Good and Evil and the Tree of life were in the Garden before Adam and Eve had made the choice to reject God. The choice was theirs and the consequences fell on them, their children and all mankind. Like a rock tossed in a quiet pond peace and tranquility does not return until the affects of the rock return to the intended state.
      Consider Cain and Able both of the same stock and environment. One embodied by faith the presence of God while the other rejected the presence of God. How kind of God to program our robot hearts with a simple binary radix. God even came to Cain with specific instruction on how he could turn it all around and this Cain rejected also. The generations of Cain list their accomplishments in the arts, music, tools and metallurgy as evidenced by modern excavations. There is no mention of God and godlessness is evidenced by their poetry.
      Able on the other hand as with Christ there is no mention of physical descendants as faith produces a seed the fruit of which is eternal and spiritual. The physical line was through Seth (brother of Able) that is traced to the physical Jesus. Of importance is that God and faith are mentioned predominantly in the generations of the good seed.
      The choice good or evil, right or wrong, God no God is clearly revealed. God actively allows the choice. Outside of this space time line of human life God observes from different points and can tell us what God has seen or what we will see. How is it known to be very good? Well in the beginning when God created it was very good. In the end God has looked and tells us “all things work to the good of those who believe”. In the beginning God said let there be light and there was light which separated the darkness from the light. In the end we again see good and evil separated. Look carefully at Genesis 1:1 as in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Then in Genesis 1:2 the earth was formless, empty and darkness was over the deep. It was at this point that God began creating and resurrecting that which is very good over the next 6 time periods that move from evening to morning. Closed loop….perhaps but it begins in darkness and ends very good. A new heaven and new earth that is very good awaits as does darkness.
      Shucks only two choices have you made one yet? I like what John said 2,000 years ago “The light shines in the darkness but the darkness has not understood it. Give your free will a shot. 10 works as good as 00 both keep the connection open.

      October 14, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • TR6

      @The Mockingjay: " So, it sounds like you saying there is no evil, because it just depends on your point of view"

      My goodness you're stupid. In America evil is defined by consensus of our elected leaders and validated by our court system, it is called illegal. Unlike in Iran or Pakistan where evil is defined by god and validated by his anointed ones

      October 14, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      Tr6, no, I said the opposite.

      October 14, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
    • fred

      TR6
      So Hitler was not evil until he gassed the first Jew? Evil is a disposition of the soul. I suspect you call Hitler and Stalin moral until such a time they broke the first community standard or did something that was illigal

      October 14, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
  20. Sam Yaza

    good news for all of the realm of Gaia. during last week ends discussions from the Muliti-Realm conference the three major democrats decided to look at who else can take Billy Graham with a unanimous decision from delegates (Sraosha rep from Heaven, Decarabia the Common Wealth of Pandæmonium [CWP] formally hell, and Rūpadhātu) decided to allow other delegate. with hell and heaven putting the differences a side it seems we are closer to finding a place for Billy Graham but um rep. Cernunnos from Avalon said with out a doubt no possible way he can come in; so were currently looking into Patala.

    don't be made humans we will find a solution for all of us, i know you all don't want him and nether do we. but soon we will have a solution.

    October 12, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • The Mockingjay

      Huh?

      October 12, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      LOL Love it!

      October 12, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      learn something more about the gods. Mockingjay

      October 12, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • OgLikeRock

      Og feel sorry for fred. Fred only seems to have one book to support his argument. Find any, that's ANY falsehood in that book and the one book fred has is invalidated. What will fred do then? Maybe read something not written by falsifiers and per verts? Hopefully. Rock tell Og it take very small brain to only use one book for point of view. Poor fred, rock smarter than fred. Og like rock! God of rock is lava and lava doesn't take slaves, or kill pregnant women, or suck on little baby pe nis es like mohel, gross! Sickos....Og like rock!

      October 15, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      yeah Sam Yaza like Rock to,,... rock is soil we all come from soil. yeah rock

      October 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.