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October 12th, 2012
12:01 AM ET
Question on Catholicism, abortion, makes for dramatic moments in vice presidential debateBy Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor Washington (CNN) - It was the first-ever debate between two Roman Catholics vying for a White House perch, and in Thursday’s face-off between Vice President Joe Biden and vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan, the question was put plainly: How does your faith shape your position on abortion? It’s one of the most divisive questions in American politics, and the query from debate moderator Martha Raddatz, asked near the end of the sole vice presidential debate, set the table for some of the night’s most personal and poignant moments. “I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith,” said Ryan. “Our faith informs us in everything we do.” “My religion defines who I am,” said Biden. “I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life.” But the two men took very different tacks on applying their faith to the abortion issue. Ryan said his religion – combined with “reason and science” – led him to oppose legalized abortion, and that “the policy of a Romney administration is to oppose abortion with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother.” Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter Ryan recalled when he and his wife, Janna, saw the ultrasound of their firstborn child, Liza. “We saw that heartbeat – a little baby was in the shape of a bean,” he said, noting that they still called their daughter “Bean” and saying he believes that “life begins at conception.” “With respect to abortion, the Democratic Party used to say they wanted it to be safe, legal and rare,” Ryan continued. “Now they support it without restriction and with taxpayer funding … that to me is pretty extreme.” Biden said he accepted his church’s anti-abortion position – “life begins at conception in the church’s judgment” – but that he refused to impose that view on “equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews.” “The next president will get one or two Supreme Court nominees,” Biden said. “That’s how close Roe v. Wade is. … Do you think (Romney is) likely to appoint someone like Scalia or someone else on the court far right that would outlaw abortion? I suspect that would happen.” Both men also used the question on abortion and Roman Catholicism to pivot to other issues, with Ryan saying the Obama White House is “infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals” presumably because of a new rule requiring insurers to provide free contraception coverage for virtually all American employees. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories Before answering the abortion question, Biden said his Catholicism has “informed my social doctrine … about taking care of those who can’t take care of themselves, people who need help.” The Obama campaign and liberal Catholic groups used the debate to organize Catholic watch parties and to argue that Ryan’s proposed budget in the House of Representative ran counter to Catholic values. About one in four American voters is Catholic, though there is such a broad range in Catholic political concerns and voting habits that many political experts reject the notion of a cohesive Catholic bloc. Catholics have voted with the winning presidential candidate in every election since the early 1990s. Obama camp, liberal groups use VP debate to organize Catholic voters In 2008, Obama beat John McCain among Catholics by 54% to 45%. In 2004, John Kerry – the first Catholic nominee for president since John F. Kennedy – lost the Catholic vote to George W. Bush, provoking Democrats to take Catholic outreach more seriously. Both major parties had America’s highest-profile Catholic cleric, New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, give the closing prayer at their recent political conventions.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Vice President Biden believes that human life begins at conception. But he also believes that killing an unborn child for money is a legitimate commercial pursuit. These beliefs are hard to reconcile.
For money? What are you even talking about?
Sam, you don't believe abortionists make money? They make LOTs of money!!!! Hello McFly.
whether or not you believe abortion should be legal, the Catholics have the right view that a fetus is biologically a human life. take a look at the cell of a fetus and you will see that it is a diploid cell that is distinct from the mother and the father. abortion terminates the fetus, which is undeniably a human organism. if you believe that the risks of pregnancy are enough to make terminating the fetus legal (i.e. a justifiable homicide) then that's a fine argument... but anyone who knows anything about science can't say that a fetus is not a human life distinct from the parents with a straight face.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/12/texas-mom-gets-99-years-for-gluing-toddler-to-wall-beating-her/comment-page-3/#comment-1443025
Here is the reason it is justified.
and yet look at how many Catholics are going through IVF... all of those murdered little humans for a chance that one will survive. Hypocrites....
So, we shouldn't impose our moral beliefs against murder, theft, deception, etc. on those who don't share those beliefs? Ridiculous! Some things are universally wrong and not just a matter of opinion. Abortion is one of those things.
It's not the same thing, and it's not your call. Don't like abortion? Don't have one. But you don't get to tell a woman who's been raped that she's stuck.
So, who is it up to? You? If everyone votes and the majority says it's okay to whap you upside the head, is it okay then? If not, why not?
Pal – I don't care if abortion is wrong or not. I don't care what your god likes or doesn't like.I want safe abortions for any person,any age who wants one, no exceptions,no permission required,not from the government, not from the guy that got her pregnant.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/12/texas-mom-gets-99-years-for-gluing-toddler-to-wall-beating-her/comment-page-3/#comment-1443025
this destoys your poor argument
Im a Catholic and Joe gave the right answer, Joe passed the Kennedy test. Ryan failed.
Kennedy test, he a rapist, rum runner, drug dealer, alcaholic or murderer. which one makes him like a kennedy?
We all have every right to use our votes to make changes to society in any way we desire and for whatever reason, religious or not. That's called freedom. If you don't like how I vote, too bad.
You got a point, or you just lonely?
No, that's not called democracy, that's called "mob rule." You are proposing the idea that if 51% of the population agrees on something, it should be able to enforce that on the remaining 49%, and there are extremely good reasons why the country pointedly doesn't work that way. This is remedial civics – what's wrong with you?
So, if something is universally wrong, like murder, theft, slavery, perjury, and abortion, then it does not matter if the majority is in favor of it. It should still be illegal.
yup that's democracy, and thank the gods we live in a Republic, were minority's have protection from the Mob.
I always wait to hear what the pope has to say about how you should live, and then I do the opposite.
Me too. That's actually a pretty reasonable way to live one's life.
I'm just curious: If somebody aborts unborn puppies, kittens, or any other animal species' unborn from their mother's womb... is this considered a crime (cruelty to animals)?
Well ofcourse, animals are exactly the same as humans.
Well, we share 97% of our DNA with chimps, but they don't have a soul, so yes you can do whatever you want to those species. And by soul, I mean an invisible "thing" that you can't describe, is not recognized as a medical or scientific fact, defies all accepted laws of physics and is refered to in order to disenfranchise individuals from enjoying the pleasures of their mortal existence.
My point exactly. So why don't people view abortion as a form of cruelty against the human race? Do animals have more rights to life than our own unborn? I think we've created a double-standard of life based on whatever is convenient.
Forced childbearing is wrong. let the mother decide.
@Pat – Forced child bearing was never "wrong" before 1973 [Roe v. Wade]. So why was "LIFE" the acceptable standard ever since the beginning of time?
@WrshipWarior,
there is a distinction between wrong and illegal.
@CNN – Thank you for denying me my first amendment right to respond to these comments freely. My last two attempts never showed up here.
@WrshipWarior
You said, "@CNN – Thank you for denying me my first amendment right to respond to these comments freely. My last two attempts never showed up here."
CNN is a private organization. They don't have to post your comments. Your first amendment rights have not been denied. That said, CNN uses WordPress blogs for their opinion pieces, and they use automated censoring that looks for words, or fragments of words, that are considered offensive. If your post doesn't show up, it most likely had a forbidden word in it.
Repeat posts, even those that were previously censored and not displayed, will show a message stating that you posted it before.
The following words or word fragments will get your post censored (list is incomplete):
arse as in Arsenal
bastard
bitch
cock as in cockatiel
coon as in cocoon
cum as in circumstance
cunt
douche
effing
fag
ftw
fuck
homo as in homosexual
horny
jackass
jap
jism
kinky
kooch
nipple
orgy
pis
porn
poo as in spooked
prick
rape as in grape
sex as in homosexual
shit
slut
snatch
spic as in despicable
tit as in constitution or title
twat
vag as in vague
whore
wtf
To circumvent the filters you can break up the words by putting an extra character in, like: consti.tution (breaking the oh so naughty "tit").
@WrshipWarior,
First amendment rights violated? Bwaaa Haa Haa. "Help, I'm being repressed"
Seriously, there is a word filter. If you use a rude word fragment, like t-it (ti-tle) or c-um (doc-ument) or va-g (va-gue) your post won't appear. If you can't figure it out let us know and someone will post the list.
Yes it can be frustrating, but no one is reading your posts before they are published.
@LinCa,
thank you. You beat me to it.
yes it is, that's why personal I'm so pro life i refuse to spay and neuter. i'm also so pro choice that it does not matter what my neighbor does as long as their not hurting me or my family or my neighbors I'm cool with it.
keep you beliefs to your self, learn some f4ck!n virtues
Joe Biden said he did not want to impose his beliefs on others. That is a statement I can support I realize people will not have the same belief as me and the government has no say.
Why must religion be a cause for everything?
I'm not religious, but I still beleive abortion to be wrong. Why? Because you're taking a living things life away.
You're 100% correct. People who say a fetus isn't alive ignore science.
Then don't support it, and don't have one. In the meantime, don't force others to adhere to your morality.
Forced childbearing is much worse than abortion.
@Pat – So many families out there who cannot bear their own offspring would jump at the chance to adopt an unwanted child.
We are a crazy mixed up society who lock people up for killing on the streets yet we promote [and want to fund] killing in the womb.
@Sam – And likewise, don't impose your immorality on the rest of us!
wworshipr – you must be a man. I don't care who wishes they had a child, if a pregnant person does not want to continue the pregnacy process then the show's over.
@WrshipWarior
You said, "And likewise, don't impose your immorality on the rest of us!"
I don't think anyone is forcing you to have an abortion. Don't like it? Don't have one.
@LinCA – Murder is wrong whether it is in the womb or outside of womb. I am a responsible citizen who pays for medical insurance and taxes. I just don't want any part of my dollars being used for funding the legalized shedding of innocent blood [murder].
@WrshipWarior
You said, "Murder is wrong whether it is in the womb or outside of womb."
Abortion is legal. It isn't murder. Get your terminology right.
You said, "I am a responsible citizen who pays for medical insurance and taxes. I just don't want any part of my dollars being used for funding the legalized shedding of innocent blood [murder]."
Do you agree with tax money funding the military? Far more tax dollars are spent on the military (designed to kill people) then on abortion.
Are you actively trying to reduce abortion? Do you support comprehensive sex education to children? Do you support making contraception easily accessible and affordable?
Anyone who is against abortion but doesn't also work to reduce the number of them is a fucking hypocrite.
@WrshipWarior: I sincerely hope you've chosen to adopt some older, damaged children and not just adorable newborn that everyone oohs and aahs over. Social conservatives go on and on about fetuses but seem to lose interest in their well-being once they are born.
"Biden said he accepted his church’s anti-abortion position – “life begins at conception in the church’s judgment” – but that he refused to impose that view on “equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews.”
Refuses to impose his views on others. That's as close to sanity as we'll get in this whole campaign, and why we need to keep the terminally confused/delusional Romney and Ryan out of the white house.
It is a statement that is from a man that understands the what it means to be an American.
So what you are saying is that politicians should not be able to impose their opinions on anyone else. Hmmm. Well then, Obama has no right to force ObamaCare on anyone. And Biden should keep his mouth shut because he needs to keep his opinions to himself and not let them sway his job as VP.
Pedro, I think we've already established elsewhere on this forum that you have little grasp of fundamental logic. I'm sorry you're not quite able to understand the point of my post. Move along.
@Pedro
Hey man, what you derisively call "ObamaCare" is actually called "The AFFORDABLE Health-care Act" and it's made a huge positive difference in my life and my daughter's life. I suppose you are for "The UNAFFORDABLE Health-care Act" soon to be imposed on us by the repubs who are against basic human rights in favor of "special" rights for corporations. Right? Know what I mean? Religion is un- and anti-American, period. Just check into Rep Broun's putrid exhalations praying for sharia in the US...he represents the repubs really well and insults those who gave life and limb fighting the mullah-terrorists overseas. He undermines support for the troops, just like the repubs tried to do during the last years of Clinton. Luckily for the US, Clinton fought them and made the military what it needed to be so that W could use it to defeat the mullahs and take credit- even though he was the pres during the worst terrorist attack on the US and did nothing to stop it. Otherwise, well, Osama would be alive and GM would be dead. Sorry, but it's true...
@pedro – obamacare is not an opinion, it is a set of laws to prevent insurace companies from denying you health care when you are sick.
So, according to folks like Biden, its okay to impose your beliefs on society, as long as you don't use religion to support them. Okay, then for the sake of discussion, I abhor abortion and will work to have it outlawed for political beliefs, not for religious beliefs. Okay dokey? Works for me! I think Biden has shown his colors. He will tell God one thing to be in His good graces, and then tell his voters another thing, to be in theirs. Typical Democrat.
Your mental gymnastics are stunning.
What job is he running for? Vice president or pope?
Are you implying that if Romney is elected, he should enforce Mormon dogma on the entire nation to avoid being a hypocrite?
I guess that means possession of caffeine will become illegal...
pssst Doc,
over here. I've got a kilo of the good Columbian stuff, straight from Juan Valdez.
So God has spoken to you as he has to a growiing number of Republicans to run for office. From where are they hearing this Voice, some moldy bread they had the night before? It must be their hearts, the same hearts that tell them to stop helping the poor and the same hearts that justify war under false pretenses. So even the Catholoic nuns and some Bishops say Ryans budget proposal is immoral and not in line with Catholic Teaching as he professes. The denial of science, is a good one too. Ryan would impose the teaching of Creationism in our schools when Pope John Paul II wrote a letter to the Catholoc leaders back in the mid nineties to accept evolution as fact and to find a way to blend the teachings with science. If he is such a pious follower of the Church why would he not follow the Popes' direction to the Church? Pandering perhaps? Keep your religion in your pocket or your heart it where it belongs and not in Government. The more religion moves into our government the more this country will mirror countries like Iran. If you can't see that then your God seriously needs to help you see the light.
Class dismissed littley boy, oh and paul dont forget you have detention for lieing..............................
TOTALLY agree with Biden here.. our country is a mix of religions and the only thing our government should support is religious TOLERANCE... do not impose your views on the country, but stick to them and raise your children with those views... these views belong to your family and personal life.. also let me just remind you all of something we all learned it school but has seemed to be forgotten.... SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
Ryan's description of his faith is interesting. He bases his religious thinking on faith, reason, and science. That doesn't sounce very Roman Catholic. He'd better talk to his bishop.
No, it is very Catholic. TRUE Catholics believe that faith and science are not opposed to one another. The problem is, 99% of Catholics DON"T KNOW THEIR FAITH.
I have a religion and I try to follow the beliefs as best I can as a human. I would not impose my beliefs and values on anyone else. Just because my favorite color is green, does not mean everyone has to love it.
No you do not have to share your preferences. But if you had a better way to do something at work, or a better way to manage your money, time or relationships. You would desperately share it for the better of society, community or family.
Mike, sharing is great. Enforcing is not.
There is something just wrong about seeing two men discussing abortion. Just terribly wrong.
While I agree with you for the most part, there are aspects and consequences of abortion that we men should be aware of, and may have to deal with, so it's not all bad. Having men impose their religious beliefs about abortion on women is disgusting.
Yeah we should just stick to the hunting and gathering
Really? Perhaps you should explain.
Those suffering from the mental disease of religion should certainly shut the fuck up about many things...,
Why because all unborn children are femaile?
0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls
Please live out your own beliefs.
Her point is apparently too obvious for some of you: if you don't have a uterus, you don't get to regulate what someone does with one.
Mike – how many children have you physically given birth to?
You can believe whatever you want to believe, just don't impose your belief on me. You are against abortion? Fine. I will never force you to have one. But don't force women who do believe in choice to have to believe as you do.
BTW, the Catholic Church/Christians have a lot to be ashamed of. The Christians in this country found support in the Bible to enslave blacks and persecute Catholics & Jews. The Catholic Church helped Ustacha Nazi collaborators persecute Serbs and escape Croatia after WWII and Pope John Paul beatified for sainthood Cardinal Stepinac who supported the Croatian Nazis and helped them escape punishment.
Don't get me started on religions.
Pat Robertson is proof of what you said about what Christians support. He just recently advised a caller to his silly dog-and-pony show who complained that his wife was "rebelling" against him to just beat the crap out of her and then said, 'Oh, wait, that's not legal, is it?' Don't you just love religion!
Since the Middle Ages, the Christian understanding of slavery has seen significant internal conflict and endured dramatic change. Nearly all Christian leaders before the late 17th century regarded slavery as consistent with Christian theology[citation needed]. Today, nearly all Christians are united in the condemnation of modern slavery as wrong and contrary to God's will. However, there are many who reject the assertion that the Church's teaching regarding slavery has ever changed. Instead, they argue that the Church has always distinguished between just servitude which is deemed acceptable and unjust servitude which is considered wrong.[citation needed] The concept of slavery as private property is condemned by the Church, which classifies it as the stealing of a person's human rights.[14][15]
Perhaps you should get started. Then you wouldn't have to live in ignorance
Abortion is not a religious issue. Birth control, gay marriage, adultery, school prayer, divorce and remarriage–those things are religious issues. But abortion ends a life whether God exists or not. Therefore it has nothing to do with religion.
Saying that people who are against abortion are pushing their religious beliefs on others is like saying people who think stealing should be against the law are also pushing their religious beliefs on society.
Mike...you're trying too hard. And gay marriage is not a religious issue, and neither is birth control. Stop being obsessed with unformed zygotes and try getting upset about the death penalty if you care so much.
A "heartbeat" is not a human being, it is a blood clot. I don't know where Ryan gets his "science" from – probably Ayn Rand – but unless a baby can breathe outside its mothers womb, it's not a human being. And Im sick of this nonsense about religion – talk about malarkey! There is a thing such as separation of church and state. Maybe someone should remind all these weak politicians about that. Sorry, but you can't preach small government and then be okay with monitoring what women are doing with their own bodies.
Interestingly enough, Ayn Rand supported Abortion Rights. The Right Wing hates to hear this.
God will Judge this nation some day for the babies killed as if they are just a blob of tissue,,we call 1 living cell on planet Mars evidence of LIFE,but a baby with a heartbeat?????????
Toby – no one's found life on Mars. And apparently, no one's found evidence of it in your skull, either.
Ever met a mother who regrets not having an abortion? Ever met a woman who has had an abortion but now regrets it?
Although I believe your questions are irrelevant to the discussion, the answer to both is "yes."
yes and yes. Your point?
Mike, are you trying to do your good deed for the day, or what?
Yes, and yes. Several times over.
Even disregarding the fact that the answers to both of those are a resounding yes – the fact that something is regrettable is not cause for outlawing it. Hell, something being immoral – even almost universally immoral – is not necessarily cause for outlawing it. Proof? Look at the business world. More proof? Infidelity to your wife is not a crime (generally).
Murder, theft, etc – these are outlawed not necessarily because they are immoral, but because laws against them are necessary for a functioning society.
I'm glad the question about Catholicism was asked. The responses show that religion is nothing more than people inventing a magical god that agrees with them. Both Ryan and Biden are sure that they and they alone have the only "right" answer from their god and golly, they totally disagree just like their god didn't even exist (or at best can't communicate what it really wants worth a darn). Ryan is a theocrat desperate to force his religion on others, Biden isn't.