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October 25th, 2012
06:00 AM ET
When ‘God’s will,’ rape and pregnancy collideBy Wayne Drash, CNN (CNN) - The pregnant 12-year-old girl was strung out on heroin and looked like a walking skeleton when she arrived at the hospital. The conversation that followed, said Phoenix police chaplain John South, has stuck with him ever since. “Do you know who the father is?” South recalled asking her. “She said, ‘Yes, it’s my biological father. He’s the one who hooked me on heroin so he could continue to rape me whenever he wanted to.’ ” The Protestant chaplain has consoled about 50 pregnant rape victims - typically girls raped by their fathers - in his years working with the Phoenix Police Department. South describes himself as “pro-life,” but when it comes to dealing with a girl or woman impregnated by a rapist, he keeps his personal views to himself. “I don’t give them a lecture or preach at them,” South said. “I’ve seen crimes beyond comprehension.” Republican U.S. Senate candidate Richard Mourdock stirred controversy during a debate in Indiana Tuesday when he said pregnancies from rape are “something that God intended to happen.” The instant reaction in political circles was predictable: Democrats decried him, and many conservative Republicans defended his position as steadfastly “pro-life.” But theologians were quick with a more nuanced approach, saying the issue of pregnancies from rape strikes at the core of a timeless question: How do you explain evil in a world where God is loving? That said, many expressed outright dismay by Mourdock’s remarks. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter South wanted to know what Bible Mourdock reads because “what he’s saying is absolutely wrong. It’s not biblical.” The police chaplain said pregnancies from rape aren’t meant to be politicized and said the victims suffer from physical and mental wounds and are often suicidal. About 60% of the time, South surmised from his experience, the women or girls choose to give the baby up for adoption, as long as they never see the child at birth. “I hurt for these kids,” he said. “Rape is evil.” Rabbi Harold Kushner, author of the best-selling book “When Bad Things Happen to Good People,” said Mourdock’s remarks were off-base: “He’s invoking the will of God where it is not appropriate." People “should have compassion for the person whose life is messed up by this and not make her an instrument for our idiosyncratic, theological commitment,” Kushner said. “If you believe she has no right to terminate that pregnancy, you're free to believe that,” Kushner said. “But for you to write your preferences into law and compel another person to mess her life up because of what you believe, I think you're going too far.” “I continue to be bemused by the ultraconservative lawmakers who say they want smaller government and less government intrusion into people’s lives, except when it comes to who you can marry and how many children you should have.” Plenty of liberal Christians bemoaned how Mourdock was being perceived by some as the face of American Christianity. "Once again, expressions of Christian faith that honor the rights of women to choose their own health care options and what happens to their bodies are not seen or heard," wrote the Rev. Barbara Kershner Daniel, who pastors the Evangelical Reformed United Church of Christ of Frederick, Maryland, in a message that she circulated via email. "The lack of another voice, another perspective, another vision from the Christian community leaves an impression that all Christians share this single perspective about pregnancy through rape," she wrote. Father Tom Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University, said he found Mourdock’s comments troubling from a Catholic perspective because “God does not want rape to happen.” “Someone getting pregnant through rape simply means biology continues to function,” Reese said. “That doesn’t mean God wills it. “If we look at the Scriptures, we see a God who weeps with those going through pain, who is compassionate for those who suffer and condemns those who do injustice,” Reese said During the Tuesday debate, Mourdock was explaining his opposition to abortion in cases of rape or incest when he made his remark. “I came to realize life is a gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen,” said Mourdock, the Indiana state treasurer. Amid the uproar Wednesday, Mourdock sought to clarify his comments, saying he was sorry if he offended anyone but said his comments were twisted and distorted for political gain. “The God that I worship would never, ever want to see evil done,” he said. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories Paul Root Wolpe, the director for the Center of Ethics at Emory University, said Mourdock’s comments were the equivalent “of saying you shouldn't pull people out of the rubble because God intended the earthquake to happen or we shouldn't try to cure disease because it's God who gave us the disease,” Wolpe said. "That perspective was theologically rejected by virtually every major religion a long, long time ago,” Wolpe added. Mourdock has been an active member of Christian Fellowship Church in Evansville, Indiana, for nearly two decades, according to Mike Deeg, the executive pastor of the 2,000-plus member nondenominational evangelical church. Mourdock has gone on missions trips with a group connected to the church to Bolivia and is well-regarded among congregants Deeg said. Deeg says the church tries to remain largely out of politics. “We don’t think God is Republican or a Democrat,” he said by phone from Evansville, noting they encourage members to vote, the church just doesn’t say for whom. The pastor said of what he has read about Mourdock’s remarks, they largely lined up with the church’s teachings on the sanctity of life and their belief that life begins at conception. “I think rape is a horrible thing, and I think God would condemn rape as horrible,” Deeg said. “I think we’re made in the image of God regardless,” he added, “I don’t think the circumstances dictate whether God knows us and loves us, regardless of how our conception comes about.” South, the chaplain in Phoenix, said the 12-year-old girl he met years ago opted for an abortion and her father was ultimately convicted of rape. He said he grappled often with “why she was subjected to such horrendous pain and torture, mentally, physically and emotionally.” “Did it shake my faith? No,” South said. “Did I ask God why? Of course.” CNN’s Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report soundoff (4,449 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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If everyone would read and understand what they are talking about when it comes to the issue of “Separation of Church and State”, you would realize that never once did it say that anywhere.
The First Amendment does state “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …“
But that was because they realized that the Government needs to stay out of religion – not that religion is not allowed in government.
I know the supreme court has interpreted their way as well, but our country was founded on Christian beliefs and laws and just because we are not a “Christian Nation” as Obama states, does not mean that ones Christian Beliefs play no role in government.
I do agree that it should not force any religious views on others, but valuing human life is not a religion only thought.
It was strongly implied. Just research the founders own views to know how strongly. ALOT!.
Allowing religion to influence government, or allowing outward religious displays in government, is clearly aiding the establishment of a religion.
No – it was not founded on christian values. Reread your history. Many of the founding fathers were deists. You're trying too hard.
@Brian – in case you missed one of my earlier post:
Different Christian sects were even feuding and persecuting each other around the time of the founding of the U.S. in several states (or soon-to-be states). Because this feuding between these sects annoyed our founders so greatly, they made it a top priority to establish the separation of church and state (and to make it Amendment #1 of our Constitution). This is also reflected in what they had to say on the matter:
James Madison (our 4th President, was the chief architect of the U.S. Constitution):
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
(A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, 1785)
and then ten years later:
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?
(A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795)
Thomas Jefferson (our 3rd President, was the key author of the Declaration of Independence)
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
(Letter (as POTUS) to the Virginia Baptists (1808))
and then of course we have clarifying moments in history such as:
President John Adams and the U.S. Senate on behalf of the U.S.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
(from Article 11 of the U.S. treaty ratified with Tripoli in 1797)
Senator John F Kennedy said on Sept. 12, 1960, just prior to his winning the Presidential election:
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.
You can interpret and say what you want on here, that does not make it true.
mama k
Good post. I posted a reply eleswhere to this – forgot to hit reply under this sub thread.
Man, does anyone here actually know history??? The term was coined by Thomas Jefferson who actually said there must be "a wall " between church and state. You do know who Jefferson is, right? The term was then used by religious leaders through out the development of the U.S. primarily TO PROTECT religions' right to exist. The pendulum of zealots has swung so far that sane people are now invoking separation of church and state to justify keeping their basic freedoms....to keep religion from dictating who you marry, how many kids you have, how you dress, etc. It's disgusting how these people can't leave others alone.
Evil is Evil
Not sure who you are replying to with your post but ya, Jefferson stated that and it clearly shows that the government should stay out of religions and give that freedom.
What I have read of the "founding fathers" (I so hate that term) is they were either NOT Christian at all or struggled with their own personal faith and did not feel that anyones personal faith should be forced upon the nation against their will via legislation. Abortion has no place in politics. It is a medical procedure that is between a doctor and patient and then a doctor and a medical board. If the doctors oath to do no hard was violated, then the medical board has a path of punishment. If the oath was honored, then the medical board has a path forward. By putting politics and legislators in the mix, we have a mess, a divided nation, and the real issues they should be resolving are being ignored. All the while, these legislators are earning hand over fist off what the average American earns. $200k+ a year with full benefits, they couldn't care less what any of us want or believe as long as they keep making at least 4 times what the average American earns.
And I agree with that – no government should force their religious views on anyone ever. But you assume abortion is a religious only topic or view. Your telling me all atheist are pro abortion? It is a matter or moral conscious and I think killing babies because our society now thinks that being responsible does not matter – is a crock and killing another – is wrong.
Now is this an act of terror, or Terrorism ?
I am so sick of hearing that phrase "It's God's will." Total absolute BS. That phrase is used as an excuse to say in effect " I can't do anything about it because a 'higher power' commanded it to happen." Nonsense. Stop invoking some mystical being and start showing some humanity.
And these idiots r just like the idiots that voted them into office.....u people are stupid if u don't see it
While I agree that this politician is an idiot, calling people stupid, while spelling you "u", speaks volumes.
Atheists, Christians, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, and other people with agendas need to shut the hell up and focus on the economy. We need to rebuild America and get our house in order or we will become a third world country. Grow up and get responsible.
Shut up! You are so 2010.
Sally: Your irresponsible comment about not being fiscally responsible is the mentality that got us in this mess to begin with. Wake up and smell the coffee. America is sinking. Remove the blinders!
Yes the economy, it is most high. It is our money and our morality, it is our God's will.
Nothing else matters but the economy, all other matters detract from the perfect will of God.
Well then don't vote the Romney/Ryan ticket. Romney's advisors are primarily Bush's and Ryan voted for all the bills that increased the debt: two Bush wars, Bush tax cuts, Bush prescription drugs on Medicare, and TARP. So you know they're not serious about the debt or the economy.
Science must be defeated. It will ruin our economy.
Mathematics must learn to obey the will of God, for it too threatens the economy and must be brought to heel.
Our military economy must be strengthened, so that is greater than all other countries combined as it is now and forever will be, by the will of God, God willing, Insha' Allah!!!
Prayer changes things,
I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module, the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".
I see that you repeat these unfounded statements with high frequency. Perhaps the following book can help you:
I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
by the Alzheimer's Disease Society
I am sorry but God is busy right now but your prayer is important to us so please hold the line and God will get to you as soon as he is free. You are currently 2,345,678,534 in line.
(angels singing ..... )
I am sorry but God is busy right now but your prayer is important to us so please hold the line and God will get to you as soon as he is free. You are currently 2,345,678,530 in line.
(angels singing ..... )
I am sorry but God is busy right now but your prayer is important to us so please hold the line and God will get to you as soon as he is free. You are currently 2,345,678,519 in line.
I see you still get diseased appendages, following you about.
....and religion IS?
Yeah, those blasphemous 'other living things'...
Hi Prayerbot.
It is his religion that made him believe it.
He knows the mind of God, perfectly.
He has been touched by God to say whatever God wants.
Murdock, Akin, Bachmann, Broun and many other Tealibags are leading this country back to their God. They will restore America to its greatness again, under "Jesus We Trust" (coming soon to our money, for God wills it).
To oppose them is to oppose God. Obey or be condemned to eternal fire.
You are joking right?
Apparently, the term separation of Church and State hasn't made its way to your planet yet.
God does not joke about the Tealibags, why should I?
The Tealibags manifest the will of God, by listening to his whispers and talking in tongues to him so that we can also know the perfect truth.
Bow down to God's centurions. They are amongst us like the angels visiting Lot in Gomorrah.
Murdock, Akin, Bachmann, Palin, Broun, Koch, and many more Morlocks who form the Tealibag Army of God.
CNN is on a role this week dragging everything up to help Hussein
Yesterday – some ex banker wrote a op/ed about "what if romney outsourced america'
This AM – Slash and burn piece on some mfg plant in chicago closing because of bain capital
This – drag the fringe GOP wingnuts out and splatter their nonsense on the web
Who is Ted Turner married too? Oh yea...Jane Fonda
Fir the last three days, CNN has posted a series of Obama-damaging news articles and pro-Romney op-eds.
Today they post a thoughtful comment about theb horrific nature of a Republican candidate.
predictably, the tea baggers are out in force caondeming any article that might reflect in any way badly on a Republican (even if his comments are evil and horrific) as being examples of the leftist media.
Dear tea baggers: grow the fu ck up. Signed: everyone else.
You speak God's view, Muffin Ruffin.
How could God desert us and allow Obama,with his fake birth records, to destroy America?
So let me get this straight, you are blaming CNN for the actions of these other people? Was it CNN that made these comments? This is why the U.S. is in so much trouble right now, because people like you can't follow along and always seem to focus on the smoke, but not the fire. You're probably one of those people that blamed the airlines for 9/11. Wake up
Here's what I took away from your comments. Conservatives are good. Liberals are bad. Our scary, scary black president has a funny, funny name. CNN is just a bunch of pinko commies.
Did I miss anything?
Fake Orwell. There is no god. Obama's birth certificate is not fake as has been proven. Let's see if Trump takes up the Colbert challenge; I mean why wouldn't he when it benefits a charity of his choice.
Turner & Fonda divorced more than a decade ago.
I am free.
It does feel good to make up your own mind! I agree.
Whatever one atheist lies to all the others swear to. Make up your own mind indeed , F'n lemming.
Thank goodness that Christians aren't lemmings! If that were true, then your comment would be somewhat problematic.
Rapists and pedophiles are monsters and trying to justify it and force the baby on the victim is monsterous too. If that is "god's will" then I reject that god.
you probably rejected God long ago for a very silly reason other than abortion.
Actually people don't reject god(s) for very silly reasons, but because of logic and reason.
itsallaloadofbollocks, logic and reason? Then why is it that the likes of Einstein and Stephen Hawking, although admittingly not supporting our definition of Christianity or God, are on record as saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that it ONLY stands to reason that the universe is so complex that it MUST have been created by an intelligent being. Sounds like logic and reason have come to the conclusion that there IS a GOD.
What I've seen of atheist is that they aren't so much, "I don't believe in god(s) and/or a supernatural/spiritual world" as much as they don't believe in a Judeo-Christian God. So, much so that they spend an INCREDIBLE amount of time disproving a negative...in their minds...which is very irrational and illogical to me. I don't believe in Buddism but you don't see me trying to DISPROVE reincarnation.
99% of the posts I see by atheists are slamming Christianity (and Judaism) and yet the mention of Allah, Buddhism, Taoism, Wicca or any of the OTHER belief systems that believe in the spiritual are ignored. Why is that?
What republicans really don't want you to know is how close they are to turning roe v wade. In particular you should check out what Ryan and Romney have pledged and signed then take a look at the supreme court. If the Taliban were here doing the same there would be a revolt, Christians do the same and its business as usual.
And countless millions of women will vote Republican. Go figure!
I often wish they would just overturn Roe v. Wade as they have been pushing for, wasting resources on for decades, so we can watch them eat their words when they remember why we have Roe. v Wade in the first place.
Within a few years we'd have abortion legal again and unrestricted. Sadly a lot of women would die and families suffer immensely, but the point would be proven.
“I continue to be bemused by the ultraconservative lawmakers who say they want smaller government and less government intrusion into people’s lives, except when it comes to who you can marry and how many children you should have.”
It's not confusing at all. It's the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality that most far right-wing conservatives have.
Down at an english fair one evening I was there
When I heard a showman shouting underneath the flair
I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
There they are all standing in a row
Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head
Give them a twist a flick of the wrist
That’s what the showman said
I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
Every ball you throw will make me rich
There stands my wife, the idol of me life
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball, roll a bowl a ball
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconuts (they’re lovely)
There they are all standing in a row (one, two, three, four)
Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head (and bigger)
Give them a twist a flick of the wrist
That’s what the showman said
I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
Every ball you throw will make me rich
There stands my wife, the idol of me life
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch (all together now)
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch (harmony)
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball, roll a bowl a ball
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
PRIORITIES PEOPLE
When you guys need to reorganize your lives or finances, don't you prioritize by what is most important? Right now, the economy and creating jobs are the MOST important issues that needs to be addressed. Arguing about social issues is petty and leads to nothing getting done.
It doesn't work that way. I wouldn't sell a kidney because I needed rent money, and I won't vote for people who will roll back the clock on women's rights just because they promise jobs. From what I can tell, the economic picture is getting better anyway.
Are you this bored?
The problem is that no one problem stands alone. They are all tied together.
If we allow people to make abortion unavailable, the economy will not improve. In fact, it will get worse.
If we take away birth control, abortions will increase, legal or not.
If we allow the idea that rape is gods will, we introduce the concept that a man has god's authority to attack whatever woman he desires, endorsing a culture of rape.
That concept leads us back to women as property, as second class citizens, and for all intent slaves.
And if you think that won't affect the economy, you aren't paying attention.
Letting these Clowns loose in Washington DC would be a big mistake for freedom and America.
Christians who truly believe in God and the bible as the word of God are hypocrites if they don't think r@pe or any other evil act is God's will. The bible states that God is perfect and controls everything that happens in the universe down to the smallest unit. If one looks at all the evil in this world then you have to conclude there is no loving God and certainly nobody controlling everything. There are many more rational solutions based on fact that explain what is happening in this universe. Education is the key to freedom from religion.
Jam 1:13-15 “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
'why is there so much evil in the world' when God is good. Evil is because of man and his sin.
God can use man's sinful intentions to achieve His purpose. The great example is Lord Jesus. It is God's will to crucify Jesus for the sins of his elect. He used sinful intentions and sinful actions of Jues and Judas to achieve it. The people who crucified Jesus are still responsible for this sin, though God used it for greater purpose.
The Lord was a believer in Freedom, that's why he gave all of us our own Free will, so trying to blame evil on God is just plain stupid...
People who don't actually understand what Christians believe probably should refrain from telling us what we believe. We don't believe that God wills evil, we do believe he will bring good from evil.
You guys are all trying to use the bible to prove the bible. That is like me using a book about Santa Claus to prove there is a Santa. Educated people know the difference between rational proof and a brainwashed trance.
@MarylandBill,
I think what some are saying is that believing in an all-good god is inconsistent with the existence of evil.
'1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.' Perfect justice is coming for lives in your neighborhood.
If his 12-year-old niece became pregnant with her step-father's child, I seriously doubt this s@umbag would be calling it "God's Will." He'd pick up a .45 and go after the p3d0, just like any rational person would.
Also, if a doctor later determined that the pregnant child would probably die during childbirth, I seriously doubt he'd deny the girl her shot at living. People who make dimw1tted statements like this generally end up being people of situational ethics.
Take your God out of my government. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
You su@k, sir. Hardc0re.
so, by this logic, isn't anything anyone ever does EVER god's will too, because if it wasn't, it wouldn't have happened. SO, this justifies anything.
religious people should take some basic philosphy courses.
Embryo from 2 women and 1 man made in lab ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/10/24/parent-embryo.html )
Let the Fundamentalist feeding frenzy begin!!!!
Very interesting! Thanks for the link.
Although its use seems limited as "Up to 4,000 children per year in the US are born with a type of mitochondrial disease.[11]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_disease). Which, I think, seems to be the main target for such a technique.
Goes to show that not all idiots are liberals!
There's more than enough idiots on both sides. The difference appears to be that the GOP lets their idiots run the show.