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 Andy Stanley, founder of North Point Community Church, embraces his father, Rev. Charles Stanley, founder of In Touch Ministries.
November 17th, 2012
07:11 AM ET
A new challenge for Andy StanleyBy John Blake, (CNN) - Since President Obama’s re-election, pundits have asked if the Republican Party needs to change its message to adapt to a changing America. Here’s another question: Will conservative Christians have to adapt their message as well? I thought about that question as I interviewed one of the nation’s most popular pastors, Andy Stanley. He is a Christian conservative who is also the pastor of North Point Community Church, a sprawling 33,000-member church in suburban Atlanta, Georgia. I talked to Stanley about his relationship with his father, Charles Stanley, a famous Southern Baptist pastor. But the informal conversations I had with him, and his colleagues, were just as intriguing. Most revolved around change. Two preaching giants and the 'betrayal' that tore them apart Stanley is an apostle of change. His church has pioneered new ways to reach people turned off by traditional churches. North Point’s funky architecture, the hologram that beams Stanley’s image to satellite churches, the stage lights and visual props Stanley uses during sermons – all of it is geared toward pulling in that new audience. Stanley told me that church leaders come to his staff to learn how to be innovators. “I have little tolerance for doing things just because we’ve always done them,” he said. Though in many ways Stanley’s church is cutting-edge, its theological foundation is conservative. The church website lists the congregation’s beliefs: The Bible is “without error;” Jesus is the “sole basis for the forgiveness of sin,” and people are “incapable” of having a right relationship with God through their own efforts. That’s the message conservative Christians have been preaching for over a century. Can that message retain its appeal as the nation’s racial and religious makeup changes? The religious right experienced what CNN called a “nightmare scenario:” in three states voters approved same-sex marriage; anti-abortion candidates were defeated in red states; and Obama, whose opponent had the support of Billy Graham, won a second term. Some may still call the U.S. a Christian nation, but the fastest growing religious group in America is people who are not affiliated with any organized religion, according to a recent Pew survey. “We are witnessing a fundamental moral realignment of the country,” Albert Mohler, who heads the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, tweeted on Election Night. Jonathan Merritt, the son of another Southern Baptist leader, wrote in a recent essay that the evangelical influence on America is declining because of the “seeping impact of globalization and the digital age.” Said Merritt: “Evangelicals once presided like chairmen in America’s political boardroom, but they must now sit down with others at a common table to dialogue and search for common ground.” Stanley may have already shown how that can be done. He’s a conservative but he’s not a culture warrior in the pulpit. Most of his sermons revolve around personal growth, not politics. His church recently hosted a visit from first lady Michelle Obama even though some members grumbled. Stanley has even been accused of not condemning gay people enough. He told me he has never compromised his theology to attract people. “I never felt the need to make decisions with money or with growth in mind,” he said. “I don’t live with that fear.” But the past shows that some pastors do change their theology with the times. What preachers once taught as biblical truth – slavery is sanctioned by God; women aren’t allowed to preach; gambling and dancing are sin – is now rejected by many churches. As the nation becomes more diverse, will white conservative Christians reexamine their teachings as they encounter others with a different history and worldview? Playing hip music and wearing jeans when you preach may not be enough to catch a new generation of Americans. How Stanley, and others, address these questions will be fascinating to watch.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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This article is a total fluff piece and could not be more incorrect. The author seems to be as stupid as this snake oil salesman's sheep. This is not a man who is concerned about anything but his bank account. There could not be a better, classic, example of an evangelical charlatan.
There is no herbie.
And no spiffy either, right?
We were all born out of dust, star dust and back to such we all will one day return back to for as it once was and is yet still and will soon ever to be our apportioned lots of stardust! Tenderness does lay upon the Sons of and of our bodies true God who's lamentations do lay ever upon the insides of our physical beings which are but God's buildings! 1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
Genesis 13:16 "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered."
God has made this world's people to be scattered as dust by the four winds to all corners of this world! Then mankind does learn what atoms, the very seeds of all Creationism are! Then when and only then, mankind's seeds of birth will become as being numbers to be counted and rationally rated by the works of mankind's ways to which all are fed and clothed and housed! Henceforth Genesis 13:16 has so been fulfilled!
lionlylamb
aka G.O.D.
(God's Oldest Dreamer)
Sure. Whatever.
To learn source of hinduism, corruption of truth absolute called religions , please visit limitisthetruth.com
I read your post with great interest. Not.
The mockeries of these godless and ungodly against the goodly who do themselves believe upon Godly importance may well live on past all and onto every garden's Aged endings. How else could Life Truly End and Real Living thusly Begin? To believe or not believe for these are Life's choices. Christ Jesus came to this world to condemn it and yet did He come here to also show how tenderly His mercies upon those being most merciful to others who did so to deserve mercy to be freely given by Him! To believe or not believe for these are Life's choices. Still yet are found mercies, for the mercifilled are one of Life's greatest treasures and livings' sweetest unending rewards.
G.O.D
aka God's Oldest Dreamer, & the lionlylamb
Proof please, or else stop your spewing already. It's really tiresome.
hinduism, hog wash of a hindu, Jesus is never addressed as HE in book of Mithraism, savior ism, bible, but as "he", take your hinduism, crookedness and shove it in your hindu filthy man god Jew' secular's hind. hindu, crook.
Mr. Lamb, please invest in Microsoft Word.
You err in saying, "That’s the message conservative Christians have been preaching for over a century." Christians, not just conservative Christians, have been saying that for over 2000 years. It has been just in the last century or so when non-conservative Christians began saying otherwise.
Also, your premise is off base. Christianity's message is eternal and does not change. To reach a new generation, it is how the message is packaged & delivered that adjusts, such as Stanley and his staff have done at their church.
Bull roar from you. The message has actually changed substantially to barely fit just what people would take.
Or are you still burning people at the stake?
Ken,
The beliefs that I was referring to were the ones mentioned in the article: "The Bible is “without error;” Jesus is the “sole basis for the forgiveness of sin,” and people are “incapable” of having a right relationship with God through their own efforts." And these have changed very little since the beginning of the Church.
"Burning at the stake" is not a "belief" it's an action (though a very wrong action). I see nothing in my comment that suggests that I would be in favor of burning heretics at the stake again.
Religion changes to fit a society when it can no longer force it's will upon that society. That is how it survives.
Daryl: like I said, bull roar. No matter how much you roar, your fictions are laid bare and your superstition is gradually becoming history.
No one ever existed by the name of Jesus in human history, but hinduism, fabrication of hindu's, criminals of hinduism, racism to hind, fool humanity in to gentile ism, slavery of other human as their god, such as King's and their hindu criminal Prophets, criminal fortune tellers, profession of writers of book of hindu Mithraism, savior ism, called Bile.
Jesus Christ came to this world to save it and not judge it! As simple as that! If humans were able to save themselves, Jesus Christ would have not needed to die for our sins! Before the "Dispensation of Grace" of God, by which we are saved through "Faith in Jesus Christ" as Lord and our personal Savior, Jesus Christ fulfilled the "Law of God" on our behalf during His ministry on earth, died on the "Holy Cross" for the "Remission of Our Sins" once and for all, descended to hell and defeated death, then rose from the dead on the third day bringing us "Eternal Life" and "Reconciliation" with God the Father! That is the "Unmerited Favor," "The FREE GIFT" of "SALVATION!"
Now, throughout the ages, the above truth has been mixed up with the "Law of Sin and Condemnation" that Jesus Christ relieved us from for it was a curse and unachievable! With that mix up, religious people judged and condemned the world for immorality that the Lord Jesus Christ paid for with His "Precious Blood!"
Religious people have forgotten two important things! First, the "Moral Code" is NOT a requirement for Salvation! ONLY Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Personal Savior is required for Salvation! Second, it is a "Natural Order" given by God that we need proper and acceptable conduct amongst each other to live a good life on this earth! That proper and acceptable conduct amongst each other is NOT "Sin Law," it is ONLY part of the "Law of Nature!"
Therefore, the Christian Church shall invite people to "Believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Personal Savior" and WITHOUT JUDGEMENT! That's our "Faith!" "Love and Salvation," and the "Dispensation of Grace!" That is the "New Covenant/Testament!"
That way, people will come in the masses!
The Christian Church shall refrain from preaching to people the "Law of Sin and Condemnation!" That's the "Old Covenant/Testament!"
The bottom line is, if you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and your personal Savior, you are a Christian, and you are saved, regardless of your sins! Whatever fruits come out of that Faith are the work and choosing of the Holy Spirit and not of ourselves! We can not plug fruits on trees!
Romans 8:1,2
"8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."
Romans 10:4
"4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Ephesians 2:8,9
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
John 3:16,17
"16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
All Scripture from New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I think I'll stick to the only deities that actually exist, Cat and Proxy Cat. They make more sense.
Cat Rules
Ah yes. And not one word from Mark, (the first gospel). Saul of Tarsus cooked up the "salvation" paradigm, when he introduced his new cult. "Bible is without error". Hahahahahahaha. The gospels can't even get the day Jebus died, straight. Why, is it that Jesus' brother James, says NOT ONE WORD about resurrection, or salvation ? Cuz Saul made it all up. If YOUR brother rose from the dead, would YOU just happen to forget it ? Hahahahaha.
Paul said women must be silent in church, and there WERE still under the law. He couldn't make up his mind. Jame said they WERE still under the old law. So, who do you believe, Saul, or Jesus' brother ?
Your "faith without works" was rejected by many of the apostles in Jerusalem, including James.
Then why are Christians so bloody judgemental?
Keep in mind that the "Good News of Jesus Christ" became "Universal" after Jesus died, resurrected and ascended to Heavens (Day of Pentecost,) so as the "Dispensation of Grace" that Apostle Paul explained! Before that, the Apostles thought that you needed to become Jewish under the Law before you became Christian!
Oh that wacky Saul of Tarsus. Just fall off your horse, meet the dead messiah in a "vision", and suddenly you can create a whole new religion, with you as the boss.
The scam worked so well, Joseph Smith just changed a few details and Presto! he had his own religion, too.
There are more contradictions in your bible including the gospels, than Bobby Henderson, could fit into the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the modern day equivalent to the jesus' myth. Party on, something fundies and sheepies really suck at.
RAmen Peace to all, tough to achieve with all those Born Agains lurching around.
@Akira
THEY SHOULDN'T BE!
Tallulah:
Yeah, those two were little scamps, I agree...nice work if you can get it.
Because they are hindu, niqqr, ignorant, looking for a free ride.
Vic: BUT THEY ARE! How does one reconcile THAT? See the conundrum?
@ Vic et al,
Vic wrote, "Jesus Christ came to this world to save it and not judge it!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
Christ Jesus came to this world to condemn it and yet did He come here to also show how tenderly His mercies upon those being most merciful to others who did so to deserve mercy to be freely given by Him! To believe or not believe for these are Life's choices. Still yet are found mercies, for the mercifilled are one of Life's greatest treasures and livings' sweetest unending rewards.
@Akira
I know! I am a born again Christian Protestant, and I struggle with that everyday! There are a lot of "Pharisees and Sadducees" nowadays! That's why there is more than 38,000 Christian Denominations today!
I reconcile with it by Faith!
John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
hinduism, denial of truth absolute can never be reconciled with truth truth absolute GOD, invitation to mayhem, Karma to correct them by hinduism, elimination by truth truth absolute.
tallulah13 wrote:
"Oh that wacky Saul of Tarsus. Just fall off your horse, meet the dead messiah in a "vision", and suddenly you can create a whole new religion, with you as the boss.
The scam worked so well, Joseph Smith just changed a few details and Presto! he had his own religion, too."
LOL. Oh my , how true – thank you – I needed a good laugh today. Yes, Christians have always been bickering with each other as much as with other "Christians" and chatty cathy Paul is often where the contradictions come into play.
Vic, just like al Christians, practices Paulianity, not Christianity.
Galatians 1:1
"1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,"
I am so born again Christian Protestant by the Authority of my Lord and personal Savior Jesus Christ!
I am so born again Christian Protestant by the Authority of Jesus Christ, Lord and my personal Savior!
"Paul Defends His Ministry"
Galatians 1:1
"1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,"
Galatians 1:11
"11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."
All Scripture from New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Vic dear, people tell lies. I know that you want to believe that Saul somehow got divine authority to speak for god, but this is exactly the sort of things people say when they want you to buy what they are selling.
i have no life. the only thing i do all day is sit on this site and make fun of believers. i'm pathetic really. please forgive me.
Too bad all the troll does is post how much he hates me. Poor little herbie.
Mmmm the old 'steal the handle' ploy. How fresh and original.
Obvious troll is obvious. And possibly ironic, since the whole "i have no life. the only thing i do all day is sit on this site and make fun" is pretty much the description of this sort of name-stealing troll.
I want to be a dentist!
No one has power over truth absolute, constant GOD, but always under truth absolute, Ellah, Ellohim, Allah, constant GOD, proven by quantum physics, hindu ignorant posters spew their hinduism, absurdities in following of their hindu filthy desire's with changing winds to run their business of hinduism, denial of truth absolute GOD to attract humanity to hinduism, illegality without any truth, religion's are nothing but a business for hindu, criminal pastors seeking numbers and dollars by use of holy name of GOD like a hindu Pundit, criminal crook with his Pandora box, deserving not to have an audience, but to be in jail's for hinduism, criminality under cover of hinduism, corruption of truth absolute religions.
goons, ignorant.
God doesn't exist. The "supernatural" is not real. "Souls" are made up gibberish. All religious claims are verifiably false. Grow up, no god, no heaven, no hell, no prophets, all lies.
It always amazes me that for atheists to hate Jesus so much, spreading constant lies about him. You sure spend all your waking hours on this site rebuffing someone you don't know or believe in. It must be because Jesus works in mysterious ways. You may hate him, but, you are obsessed with him.
And I contend, Jean, that self-righteous folks like you are only here because the atheists are. You wouldn't bother to post at all if only other believers were permitted here.
There are sites where that is the case. If you were really so put off by atheists, you'd leave and go to one of them.
Can not hate that which does not exist. Sure made you mad though. You mad bro?
"It always amazes me that for atheists to hate Jesus so much, spreading constant lies about him."
Did you actually think that was a complete sentence when you wrote it? Did you think it made sense? Why would people "hate Jesus"? I don't hate him. I simply doubt he was divine.
Jean,
We do not believe that Jesus exists, so we do not 'hate' him any more than you 'hate' Thor. "Believers" *do* exist, however, and they are the ones who are at issue, for trying to run the lives of everyone according to their unproven fantasies.
Nature, essence of every thing dependent on truth absolute constant, and essence of every one and and every thing is truth absolute, nothing can exist with truth absolute constant, and truth absolute is GOD, denial of truth absolute GOD is hindrance to truth absolute God, and person in denial of truth absolute God is a hindu, in his way of hindu Atheism, criminal secularism. Are you one of those hindu's, denier of truth absolute in following of hindu Judaism, criminal secular ism, speaking of hindu soul, filthy desire in denial of spirit, the truth absolute GOD.
Tuff Tuff N Stuff It,
"Self-righteous folks like you are only here because the atheists are." Belligerency is a two-fold wager! Heads I win and tails you do lose you d i l d o seeking pig in your moter's blanket still yearning for her teet to s u c k l e on!
Oh, and we "do see" (to use your silly syntax) that you're quite put out and being quite belligerent yourself.
Good.
"Belligerency is a two-fold wager! Heads I win and tails you do lose you d i l d o seeking pig in your moter’s blanket still yearning for her teet to s u c k l e on!"
And you accused Tom Tom of drinking? Really?
@ Jesus is never coming back,
While the charge is truthful that Christ will never come back, our problems regarding life after death does ever remain. If one does so believe that nothing is one's finality, the, so be they, however if one faithfully believes in a hereafter, the will be faithfully rewarded no matter how small their faith is bequeathed upon them. The Great Sea of Nothingness does not come about with perilless underpinning whereupon the common atheist concerns are afforded. Cold is this great sea of Nothingness and colder still are the atheists who declare upon nothing to be their finalities. Like hell's fury does Nothingness's cold strike out! Only the very devoted atheists will garner the cold of Nothingness for Christ was never of tem even though words were said to them!
Akira,
Tom Tom was the first one to "pull the trigger" in the tirades that did ensue here. I have a short fuse and her calling others names and critisizing her duly demonstrative stupid rants of rage is where I draw the line! She has always peed upon others no matter who or what is said! They are but know nothings out for a rumble with nothing but zealotry to guide them!
Oh, Jean. I rather like the person in the bible called Jesus, even if I don't think for a minute that he's the "son of god". I'm not entirely sure even HE thought he was the son of god.
What I do hate is the religion that Saul of Tarsus invented, which took Christ's name but not his teachings.
Lionly, you seem like a short-fused kinda girl yourself...
One question: is the Sea of Nothingness named Quiddity?
Akira,
My "Quiddity" is based upon an ancient theology whereby Nothingness created all the 'elemental' gods from which did spring up all the celestial nebulas and their proceeding galaxies wherein are contained many solar systems. Our God was duly brought from out of Chaos' midsts and we were born into existence via the elemental gods themselves needing a vehicle from which to travel here and there upon our insides. Our bodies are much more then just bodies! They are the containers or buildings and even temples that the elemental gods to reside in on occasional visitations. Can you somewhat understand these views Akira?
Lionly:
I understand what you say, yes, even if you have an extremely roundabout way of saying it.
Too bad if it sticks in your ugly craw, Goober. You babble incessantly about nothing. When I read a post, I would like to understand what it says. Your posts are never anything but a mash-up of nonsense words. If you don't like being criticized for writing crap, then don't write it, dumbazz.
The contents of the Bible have not changed, what has indeed happened at various times is bad theology (for example asserting that the bible endorses anti-semitism or slavery) has been corrected.
The Church lives only so long as Gods spirit works within us, as such it is absurd to think that the Church needs to "change to meet the challenges of a new era". To abandon the unchanging in pursuit of the ephemeral is a course doomed to fail.
The only thing that we need to "keep in step with" is the Spirit of God that lives in believers.
What about the sport of Zeus? Or the spirit of Ra? Or the spirit of.....you get the point. Your gods a joke, just like every god in history.
Never coming back. Did you ever question why the Egyptians who worshipped false gods, don't have any living ancestors to claim their heritage?
@ Jean,
What about the Hindus, who as per you worship the wrong God, but have been there before your kind also and still exist?
@Chad,
How do you know that the old theology was wrong and now you have corrected it? Maybe the older version was the right interpretation and now, you are just modifying it to be in accord with current times. Suiting your needs!
There are all kinds of false/exaggerated stories about really fast runners, that doesnt mean that Usian Bolt isnt real.
There are all kinds of false/exaggerated stories about incredibly strong people, that doesnt mean that Žydrūnas Savickas isnt real.
Fallacy of Faulty Comparison : Comparing one thing to another that is really not related, in order to make the one thing look more or less desirable than it really is.
Fallacy of Hasty Generalization: is the fallacy of examining just one or very few examples or studying a single case, and generalizing that to be representative of the whole class of objects or phenomena.
@SImran "How do you know that the old theology was wrong and now you have corrected it? Maybe the older version was the right interpretation and now, you are just modifying it to be in accord with current times. Suiting your needs!"
@Chad "there are some theological principles that are rarely if ever misinterpreted: Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins in fulfillment of scripture.
There are other societal guides (women teaching) that we need to approach with humility, and ask for guidance on.
It isnt an idiot proof process, and we're all idiots. The important thing to remember is stay focused on the unchanging reality of Jesus Christ and His indwelling Spirit. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.
Chad says:
"The contents of the Bible have not changed, what has indeed happened at various times is bad theology (for example asserting that the bible endorses anti-semitism or slavery) has been corrected."
Bad theology? Huh?
It was WRONG, and has since be corrected?
What else is wrong, then, and needs to be "corrected"?
Chad
"There are other societal guides (women teaching) that we need to approach with humility, and ask for guidance on"???
– So, you ask the societal guides whether or not your interpretation of the Word is right or wrong? Which women? Oh yeah, the Hindus have the goddess Durga and Kali! And even Greek had some. Am I missing something here?
"It isnt an idiot proof process, and we're all idiots." – Really??? You realize that this statement is self-contradictory.
"The important thing to remember is stay focused on the unchanging reality of Jesus Christ and His indwelling Spirit. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you." – Yeah, I keep getting those mails where there are some black dots and they say, focus on them and you will see Jesus. Guess what? They are optical illusions.
Would you pleases consider going to meet your supposed maker and saviour as quickly as possible and give the rest of us a break. If as and when you do, keep in touch, if you need help with that contact Harry Houdini, he has been working at it for quite sometine.
Chad, why is it that your omnipotent skydaddy can't come up with a better means of communication than a book? For that matter, why can't it create its own website (no, biblebelter shill sites don't count), or even push out a few tweets?
Rather limited "god" it is that you've created for yourself there.
We know nothing about the attributes of anything prior to some of the things we know about our current universe. Therefore, we don't know if laws of physics, etc. would have been the same. Therefore, we can't actually say what kind of external agent, if any, would have been necessary for us to wind up with the universe that we have, along with its laws. Because we don't know anything about the laws of anything prior to this universe, we don't know about the attributes of any possible being (higher than human being or not) that may have existed before. Therefore, all speculation regarding creation outside of known science is just that – speculation.
And because things are so unknown prior to our universe, and because ancient man was afraid of his own shadow, so to speak, it is much more likely that the magic that has resulted in religions today, is a result of man having created gods in his own image – to explain away things he didn't understand. In fact, we do still see remnants today that men did create many different kinds of gods in their own image. This includes the god of israel, because that god is just a rehashing of previous gods told through folklore.
The Bible for centuries has been an assertion, initiated by ancient man, to lend credibility to religion and as assertion to lend credibility to magic of man's folklore experiences – interfacing with a higher being. Regardless if some of the characters in the Bible were real, none of the writings to date asserting such divine experiences have made a good case proving such experiences. And since the newer stories are based on very obvious folklore of the older stories that were changed and translated over time, passed by word of mouth, it is much more reasonable to assume that there was some political motivation behind the need to try to validate the newer stories via magic including "witnesses" written into them.
I obviously can't speak for all of modern society, but, for me, credible proof would certainly have to be something greater than what has been given so far. It's not enough to trust that the person standing next to you said they had a vision (that you did not have) – we know more now about the capabilities of the mind – what it can at time perceive that may not be reality. It's not enough to take seriously writings based on other writings, based on word of mouth stories handed down from other writings and word-of-mouth stories from millennia ago when man didn't understand a lot of things and was afraid of them. Anything better than those two types of evidence would probably be better. But so far, the Bible, although convincing via organized religious indoctrination, has never provided anything but the latter aforementioned "evidence". It has never proved any of its "magical" assertions.
@mama k
I admire yor posts and your continuing effort to try and get through to the Chad, but his dishonest stances will make this impossible, the Chad could never admit he is wrong. For example anyone that does not know the definition of fact, evidence, hypothesis, theory will never be able to understand reality. Waiting for the Notre Dame football game to start, about the only thing I can support about the RCC.
Thank you, Nice Jewish Boy. It's a good fresh day for some college football indeed.
@Mrs. Pepperpot “Bad theology? Huh? It was WRONG, and has since be corrected? What else is wrong, then, and needs to be "corrected"?”
@Chad “Theology is mans interpretation. The problem is when man’s interpretations build doctrines that really aren’t substantiated.
=======
@Bob “Chad, why is it that your omnipotent skydaddy can't come up with a better means of communication than a book? “
@Chad “The bible is just a collection of documents that chronicle God interaction with humanity, it is only one way He has of communicating, the others are the person of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit”
======
@mama k “We know nothing about the attributes of anything prior to some of the things we know about our current universe”
@Chad “utter nonsense of course, as we DO know there was nothing (non-being, the absence of everything). We know that, because we know the universe had a beginning (Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstien, Borg-Guth-Vilenkin).
We know for a fact that our universe is finite in the past, that it had a beginning. We know the attributes “before”, namely-non being.
======
@mama k “ Therefore, we don't know if laws of physics, etc. would have been the same”
@Chad “no.. .since our universe came into being, so did the laws, space, time, and all matter itself. Therefor we know for certain that the physical laws of our universe didn’t exist, because our universe itself didn’t.
=======
@mama k “Therefore, we can't actually say what kind of external agent, if any, would have been necessary for us to wind up with the universe that we have, along with its laws
@Chad “we DO know it must be an external agent, a causal agency external to our space time.
Credible proof, how about:
1. The origin of the universe
2. The fine tuning of the universe for the building blocks of life
3. The origin of life on earth
4. Punctuated Equilibrium: the fossil record showing species experiencing millions, 100's of millions of years of stasis (no change, random genetic mutations are weeded out of the gene pool resulting in a pool 'wobbling about the genetic mean'), followed by extremely rapid change resulting in new species appearing fully formed in the fossil record.
5. The empty tomb, and the unshakable conviction among followers and enemies alike that they had witnesses a resurrected Jesus. A conviction they held so strongly that they went to their deaths proclaiming its truth.
Chad, You continue with your dishonest circular arguments. The fact that the bible claims those things doesn't make them true. As has been pointed out to you countless times, science has shown that the biblical myths of creation and life are not true – they are simply stories invented to satisfy an ignorant populace. We know better now.
I think we're still waiting for, among other things, your proof that Zeus and Odin do not exist. Remember you claim that the non-believer must disprove the god, even though that is impossible and that it is the believer who introduces the idea of a god. Then whatever you come up with applies to your god.
Basically you have nothing but circular arguments in the face of staggering contrary evidence – the bible is true, the bible says so.
Is Chad a believer? If so, in what?
Chad says "The only thing that we need to "keep in step with" is the Spirit of God that lives in believers."
Does the Spirit of God live in Chad? How does he know? Does he have direct, personal, and incontrovertible experience of something that can only be a living God, a God that can only be the God of Abraham? How can we know?
Gosh, Chad, I thought you would have known better than to put those five points up again that have failed time and time again. But the first point is so obviously a grandiose assumption:
Chad wrote: ". . . as we DO know there was nothing (non-being, the absence of everything)."
No we don't, Chad. We simply do not know that. We are talking about one theory there, not anything we know – nothing that has been proven.
And I'll leave it to others to argue other points, but you assume way too much on the very first point. I will say, however, on your point #5, that there is no credible proof there as well. Of course things were written to support a reality to the story, but it still is ancient hearsay.
Good for you Chad
It is a good start for you to go from saying that the resurrection was a fact to now saying it was an unshakeable conviction, big difference, still pretty silly but is is a start.
Not all that hard for the nutters that have an unshakeable convition to go meet their maker, the Rev. Jones and whackos at Waco or waiting for the flying saucer, etc. I saw your list of non- believer quotes that have a limited acceptance of the resurrection. Amusing that you would berate mama k for cherry picking qoutes and you doing exactly the same thing a few days later, hypocrisy or downright deceit?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning Alexander Vilenkin "Many Worlds in One" pg. 176
@Veritas "You continue with your dishonest circular arguments."
@Chad "you should try, just once, providing an example. It is so much more meaningful than just making the same statement over and over.
===
@Veritas " The fact that the bible claims those things doesn't make them true."
@Chad "which "things" are you talking about?
======
@Veritas "science has shown that the biblical myths of creation and life are not true – they are simply stories invented to satisfy an ignorant populace. We know better now."
@Chad "the big bang was debunked, it turns out the universe is infinite in the past??? how in the world did I miss that?? who did it? Likewise with the origin of life, fossil record, etc.. etc.. etc..."
=====
@Veritas " think we're still waiting for, among other things, your proof that Zeus and Odin do not exist. Remember you claim that the non-believer must disprove the god, even though that is impossible and that it is the believer who introduces the idea of a god. Then whatever you come up with applies to your god."
@Chad "I NEVER claim that non believers must disprove God.
I DO claim that if a person says "God does not exist", they must back that up with evidence.
simple 🙂
Is it the simplicity that continually confuses you? I bet I have explained this dozens of times, but it never really seems to sink in...
If you make a claim, you back it up.
I do not claim Zeus is not real, I cant prove it, so why assert it? I have it on good authority that Zeus is not real, but I, personally, cant prove it so I dont make the claim.
@Nice Jewish Boy "It is a good start for you to go from saying that the resurrection was a fact to now saying it was an unshakeable conviction, big difference, still pretty silly but is is a start."
@Chad "you seem to have an incredibly difficult time following an argument, here is what I have always said:
1. there are several facts nearly universally agreed as being historically accurate (empty tomb, finding of the tomb by a group of his women followers, appearances of resurrected Jesus and the origin of the unshakable conviction among followers and enemies alike that they had witnesses a resurrected Jesus.)
2. the best explanation for those accepted facts is that God resurrected Jesus
do you understand the difference between the claims being made in #1 and #2?
Yes, Chad – you quoted more theory from Alexander Vilenkin – so what?
Chad, you persist with this empty tomb thing. Please provide the evidence that ANYONE who is not a christian believes that this was an actual historical event. Please provide the non-biblical, unbiased, contemporary (which means recorded at the time it happened) witness accounts.
It is not an accepted fact that Christ actually existed, much less that he was crucified or even entombed to begin with.
Chad, try to summon up more courage than you have been able to so far, and try to answer my question more directly. The question again is:
Why is it that your omnipotent skydaddy can't come up with a better means of communication than a book? For that matter, why can't it create its own website (no, biblebelter shill sites don't count), or even push out a few tweets?
Chad....Can you guess where I found that exact same quote by A. Vienkin? In an article by Robin Schumacher in the Christian Apolegetics and Research Ministry, probably a friend and colleague of yours. I see where you are coming from, are you paid to post your circular arguements? I imagine you get most of your research from CARM, christian apolegetics at its best.
More circular, don't you get dizzy? Define "fact" in you world, and see if it would stand up in the real world. Fact.. a thing done or something that has actual existance; evidence...something that furnishes proof; proof...something that enduces certainty or establishes validity; supernatural...of or relating to an order beyond the visible order of the universe. The resurrection does and never will make sense, it is not a fact and there is no proof or can there be that it happened A fairytale like the dead being able to conduct war in the Lord of the Rings. But maybe you can prove that also?
mama k
When trying to find some info on Vienkin, I stumbled upon the Christian Apoligetics and Research Ministry and I think this is the source of Chad's infiniite source of delusion, please mention this to the others that want to refute the Chad, not a rolodex but 2000 years of apologetics at his fingertips.
Chad hopes that it is enough that people acknowledge that something of his bible is true for them to make a leap to believing that all of it is true. In particular, that all the implications he sees in his bible are true and apply to everyone. But at the same time Chad does not represent or defend a personal and presently existing God, the subject of those implications. If the empty tomb was indeed empty because the son of a living God was resurrected, what of it if even believers have no experience now of that God?
Chad. You have claimed that non-believers must disprove god, but you have recently modified that to 'if a person says "God does not exist", they must back that up with evidence.'
You say 'If you make a claim, you back it up.'. OK you claim there is a god, and specifically the god of the bible. Without quoting from that self-serving book. prove that your god exists.
If you do not claim that Zeus etc. are not real, why do you worshp your god? What evidence do you have that your god is better than the others? What good authority do you have it on that Zeus is not real, and how are they qualified to make that assertion?
@Chad:
If it is all man's interpretation, is it inconceivable that man has (most likely) has it wrong?
Yes.
Since it is all open for interpretation, the interpretation is open for having an erroneous conclusion.
For the casual observer: the reason atheists always accuse Christians of circular logic regardless of the number of cited sources, is that's all they have.. It's the same reason they accuse Christians of lying.
Now, note, not examples detailing exactly what is lying, or employing circular logic is ever provided. Veritas tried to claim I was using the bible to prove the truth, however it is trivially easy to see that I never once on this thread quoted the bible on anything he probably didnt even read my post, it is just a stock response.
There are just certain responses that always come out by default.. "lying", "dishonest", "circular logic"., and never once have I ever seen anyone provide any backup to their accusation. Now, if you watch this page, you will see more accusations, accompanied by "we have already told you so many times before", or "you've been proved wrong somewhere else", but what you definitely will not see is a simple example put forth.
Atheists have to much personally invested in their view to actually be open to evidence.
@Chad
You're an idiot as usual. It's good that everyone laughs at you. XD
You and that apologist site you go to make quite a pair. You should look up on the word 'debunked'. But knowing you – you're terrified of that word.
Chad of the CARM...(Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)
So you want to know why people belive you are dishonest, OK? When you state something is a FACT without providing proof or evidence it is considered to be deception and if sworn to, perjury. You do this quite often, but I will use the example of the resurrection and ascension that you maintain is a fact. Apologists have spent a great deal of time and effort to try and make the contradictions in the four gospel STORIES make sense, they have had some success but not to the point of establishing the STORY as FACT. The ascesion is a good example; in Mark it happens in Jerusalem with the disciples present; in Matthew it is not mentioned at all; in Luke it happened in Bethany the same day as the resurrection; in John it doesn't say if jesus ascended; in Acts it happened at Mt. Olivet 40 days later. Now all these accounts cannot be accepted as an actual event or FACT, the stories are just to diverse. My favorite line comes from John 20:9 "for as yet they did not know the scripture that he must rise from the dead." The reason they could not know is that Paul made up the story of the resurrection long after the supposed event. You can delude yourself as much as you want, but you cannot square the circle that is why your critics maintain you are a liar, in our view but probaly not in your brainwashed mind.
R: Revised Standard Version Bible...John 20:9
This article makes me want to vomit all over conservative christians. Call me Linda Blair, but enough of religion in politics...it didn't work and it SURE won't work in 4 years when civilization is that much more advanced. Religious people tend to be dumber...they just don't get it do they?
Many religious people are incapable of comprehending the idea that other people really don't believe their god exists.
Huebert, I know fools always existed. Don't fool yourself into believing you're the only idiot in the world.
Jean, stow the insults already. You are acting too Christian.
Jean is an example of the sort of 'christian' that makes people question the validity of that religion. All she/he offers is insults and lies. Not a shred of proof, not a glimmer of reason. In fact, the more he/she comments, the more confident I become that christianity is nothing more than a security blanket for people who are mindlessly terrified of their own life and mortality.
A better question in this article would be, "Why don't christian conservatives, or preachers STAY OUT of politics?!?!?!"
If it weren't for the Christian conservatives, our country would be further down the drain than you atheists made it.
Oh, bullish!t. If the Christian conservatives were any good for this country, more of them would have been reelected, Jean.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, the Christians that pay attention to the mega churches "feel good" messages are just as hedonistic as you.
What does this burble have to do with anything, Jean?
And do tell me what evidence you have that I am "hedonistic," honeybun. Thanks in advance.
Jean, so there are different types of Christians now? Are the better ones, the ones who are not "hedonistic", as judgemental as you seem to portray yourself?
@mrs
Let's see... there are what.... 1.5B people that say they are christian? I'd wager a guess that means there are 1.5B flavors of that particular belief.
Wait a minute... Is Jean actually Heaven Scent with a new name?
Yes, tally, I believe she is. I see a lot of similarities in style and content.
The troubles with trinitarians, those who belly-up to one god times three is, they read but only into it and get very little out of what they make 'go-spellingly' in amplifications of unblessed pleasings. Their preaching in devilish tongues beatifies only the dumb-hearted relics of their christiandumbness's idiosyncratic marmoset redundancies. Their godly moralisms are but self-centered and self-censored upon redundant principles that are archaic in cultured relics, thsoe old fuddy duddues who fumble ever for their next glass worth of wine! Drunk and in stupors are the christiandumbs folds' in-undulations becoming sciatic pragmatisms unworthy of even one toasting for but rather against!
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
Godless and the ungodly, for these are the choices from which commonwealth atheists do make felt upon their habitual senses denying the goodly of ever moving ways of Godly intent. Many young-bucks of godlessness and the ungodly tender to avail themselves with the nailed doldrums' sciatica and do abound with much societal unpleasantries toward the abaters of wanton deniabilities against them, those ungodly and godless beings of smirked vials of randomized intention-abilities. Their deniabilities are not without compromising or so they do entail and also do weave upon the where-with-alls laments.
@ lionlylamb....move to the Middle East where Theocracy is alive and well as THE form of government. Posts like yours are mental.
"sublimation's 'psycho-babbling' or there abouts."
Can't answer, can you, God's Own Dolt?
I didn't think you could. I'm stone-cold sober, but I think you have had more than a few libations.
Funny thing about atheists. They see nothing therefore they must know nothing and finally they declare nothing to be their final destiny! Dumb futzes and klutzes!
Funny thing about crazy people like Goof Off Dumbbell. They get perturbed when anyone asks them to explain what their babble means.
Tom oh Tom,
Do you really want me to make leveraging diplomacies of wittiness against your dolty and rather dumb sayings? Why can't you oartake and be original in your words of witt?
What are you babbling about. God is 3 and one in the same. God the father, God the son Jesus who walked among us, and God the Holy Ghost or spirit who is always with us.
Jean
I see you like the polytheistic flavor of Christianity.
@jean
Yeah, that clears things up.
Tom the female hygienist in bittersweet analogous veins of prudence never could ever say one iota of severance's packaging meant to be societally healthy instead ralies toward c i c u m v e n t i n g tirades shortened for expedience's childish seminaries.
Goober Of Dimwittedness: you mean why don't I make up words like you do?
I don't need to; I actually have a vocabulary that consists of real words with actual meaning and definitions.
You're free to go on, Goober. In fact, I hope you do; you look more unhinged with every post.
Jean, et al,
God does never change His spiritualism for His Holy Spirit is the Great Sea of Absolute Nothingness! Always was and is and will ever be no matter what matters of materialized shapes to tend to seemingly clutter up His spiritual abundancy It is truth that God has troubles within the fractal paradigms of inter-cellular cosmological 'activists' sometimes revolting against the grains of our embodied sanctifications creating many undulations of travesties not uncommonly viewed by us celestial beings as being viral and bacteriological in the way we understand things to be and become. What was first made can never again become that which was made first for only in varying differential constructs can another thing be made to be outdone against that which was firstly made. The pillars of one's DNA, the spirals of all celestial life forms and formations is where God's Sons and their given wives are taken in as residents there abouts.
It is truth that God has troubles within the fractal paradigms of inter-cellular cosmological wherein 'activists' sometimes revolt against the grains of our embodied sanctifications creating many undulations of travesties not uncommonly viewed by us celestial beings as being viral and bacteriological in the way we understand things to be and become. What was first made can never again become that which was made first for only in varying differential constructs can another thing be made to be outdone against that which was firstly made.
G.O.D.
Marsiedotes and doseydotes and liddlelamseadivey. A kiddleedivey, too, wouldn't you?
Huebert, it's call believing his truth written in scriptures.
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Huebert, get this through your thick skull. There are many organizations and walks of life that are ripping apart Jesus' truth. That is nothing new to believers. Because you want to buy into their lies is the lesson you need to learn.
What does "oartake" mean?
I am always interested in expanding my vocabulary with news words with a definition that actually exists.
@jean
Wow and to think that out of all those false beliefs you managed to latch onto the One True Faith. What are the odds?
Rick J Wagner is telling fibs.
Numerous studies have shown that religious people donate more time, more money, and donate more blood than any other group of people. Religion is a force for good.
Except when it is used as a bludgeon to deny rights to women, ho.mose.xuals, and people of other religions. But that won't last much longer, thankfully, people are out gowning imaginary friends.
It is commonly held that religion makes people more just, compas.sionate, and moral, but a new study suggests that the data belie that as.sumption. In fact, at first glance it would seem, religion has the opposite effect. The extensive study, “Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies,” published in the Journal of Religion and Society examines statistics from eighteen of the most developed democratic nations. It reveals clear correlations between various indicators of social strife and religiosity, showing that whether religion causes social strife or not, it certainly does not prevent it.
For more details, read this article:
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/
On April 26, 2012, the results of a study which tested their subjects' pro-social sentiments were published in the Social Psychological and Personality Science journal in which non-religious people had higher scores showing that they were more inclined to show generosity in random acts of kindness, such as lending their po.sse.ssions and offering a seat on a crowded bus or train. Religious people also had lower scores when it came to seeing how much compas.sion motivated participants to be charitable in other ways, such as in giving money or food to a homeless person and to non-believers.
A 2005 study by Gregory S. Paul published in the Journal of Religion and Society stated that, "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies," and "In all secular developing democracies, a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows" with the exceptions being the United States (with a high religiosity level) and "theistic" Portugal.
"The entirety of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever." Psalm 119:160
God does not change, man does by removing himself further from His truth. We see it today in it's full hideous glory.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This generation loves to listen to the lies of teachers or scientists telling them what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear.
Hahhahhhaha! I doubt you ever listened to a teacher.
@Disgusting
You are right god doesn't change. In order for something to change it would first have to exist.
@Disgusted,
SERIOUSLY??? You want to tell us what we need to hear? Rick started with studies. I just showed him the actual studies. Maybe, for a change, open the windows of your brain. Give the PROCESS OF THINKING a chance... But then, how do I care what you need to hear!
Numerology studies? Where's the odds in that? Don't tell me that their zodiac wheel has sprung a leak! I just can't stand the pushiness of numerologists numbering me nor is it righteous! Mind numberings do tend to the numbing of ways.
Thanks for proving what a perverted generation you indeed, have become. I got the laughs, along with the insults. Meaning, you're too easy while walking the unrighteous path of Satan. You also prove, it's easy to be evil. It takes courage to be a Christian.
"Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
"Salvatore" degenerates to:
"Douglas" degenerates to:
"Digusted with this..." degenerates to:
"truth be told" degenerates to:
"Thinker23" degenerates to:
"Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
"another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
"Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
"tina" degenerates to:
"captain america" degenerates to:
"Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
"Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
"just sayin" degenerates to:
"ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
"Kindness" degenerates to:
"Chad" degenerates to
"Bob" degenerates to
"nope" degenerates to:
"2357" degenerates to:
"WOW" degenerates to:
"fred" degenerates to:
"!" degenerates to:
"pervert alert" is the degenerate.
This troll is not a christian.
"Digusted"
Stupid troll doesn't know how to spell, which gives them away every time.
There's your sign.
Nonsense. You've made a bunch of ridiculous assumptions and accusations with absolutely no evidence of any kind, you dim bulb. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.
I missed that, Douglas. Thanks for catching it. "Digusted!" You can tell these nuts never made it through school. That's why they dismiss education–they never had any.
So Disgusted,
I am guessing that tonight you will go on your knees and pray to Jesus to open the gates of heaven for you, to be away from this generation of perverts... But wait, if you kneel down too often, you may be putting yourself at risk of prepatellar bursitis. Scientists suggest the wearing of a knee cap, it helps!
@Disgusting
Yes it takes so much courage to be a christian in a majority christian nation.
Digusted with this generation of anything goes,
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
The "literalness" of the above verses of scripture needs to be meditated upon and thoughfully considered when ones oscilating the above verses dares to be rationed.
LL, while you are dumping bible bile on us, let's look at what else is really in your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible. Fine demands from nasty, bigoted Christian sky fairy like these, from both vile testaments:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Huebert, you sure write a lot for being so unlearned in Jesus' truth. It was Jesus who freed humanity from the bondage of worldly ways. The Pharisees insisted on man made ways be practiced which made people slaves to their rituals. Oh, sure, the modern day Pharisees point their fingers at Jesus, so so you don't pay attention to they enslave mankind. Staying stupid does not help mankind, bumpkin.
Jean, you certainly write very poorly for someone calling another a "bumpkin."
"The Pharisees insisted on man made ways be practiced... so so you don't pay attention to they enslave mankind."
Gibberish.
Jean,
One simple question, why did Jesus forget my part of the world? Did he not like the Indian subcontinent or did one crucifixion become too much for him?
Bob,
One verse is all I need to dispell your versed rantings!
2Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth!"
Your stance upon copied scripture is at best only a rhetorical euphemism hardly worth its incitement.
Take a "LITERAL" stance upon these following verses and dare to find "REAL" meanings upon the weightiness!
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
God's Oddest Doofus: what are "versed rantings"? There is no such word as "aboveness."
If you are trying to argue a point, you're failing.
" rhetorical euphemism hardly worth its incitement." Meaning what? What has been "incited"?
" find "REAL" meanings upon the weightiness!" How does one find real meanings upon 'weightiness'? How does one do anything "upon weightiness'?
Douglas and Tom, thank you for the correction. It's difficult to type with carpal tunnel. Then again, you'd have to work for a living to acquire it.
I do work for a living. I don't have carpal tunnel. I do however have other work-related physical ailments. I just don't use them as an excuse.
@ fibber Rick J....show the studies please. It's 2012, we don't just believe things that are pulled out of christian's *sses anymore.
Jean
I'm a slave to my own ways? How the fvck does that make any sense? Slavery would be not being able to follow my own ways and being forced to obey some tyrant on pain of punishment. Does that sound familiar to you? Also throwing insults just makes your argument and ideas look weak.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, the reason you assume this is gibberish is because the modern day Pharisees have conditioned you into hating Jesus' truth and believing their man made lies. Why do you think you are so consumed in destroying Jesus' truth? Oh, let's take a guess, what are some of the pet phrases you atheists use "using your own brain" LOL. Yeah, the conditioned brain you were brainwashed all your years growing up in the school system the Pharisees took over.. Be careful for what you ask for, the Modern Day Pharisees are laughing all the way as they use you as their foot soldiers ... if you destroy Jesus' truth, their lies get to reign. Then you'll be sorry for being their stooge.
Teet sweet tom,
Having a slow day are we now? Or. are you not yet fully up to par with your libations? May the God who resides inside your embodiment's Being, fetch for you your solemn sobriety and drink no more in the sublimation's 'psycho-babbling' or there abouts.
Love Lettuce,
Love knot,
Love Let Us,
Love Not,
G.O.D.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, then you must work on this site, since, you are always here.
Disgusted, you're an idiot. I was raised in a solidly church-going family. My grandfather, though he died long before I was born was a minister. I grew up in a time when the Lord's Prayer was recited in public school every morning, and when Christmas pageants were the norm for every kid. I don't commit evil, you dumbazz. I am happily married, have worked for over 3 decades in a successful career, have a wide circle of friends and colleagues that includes many who believe. I give to charity as generously as I can. I donate blood. I contribute to my community.
You're just plain nuts.
Oh, gee I "must work on this site, since, you are always here." Gosh, how original of you. Numbskulls who make these statements are so dim they don't realize that making such a claim indicts them! If I'm "always here," how do YOU know, unless you're here all the time to check?
I work 10-hour days. I am not "always here" and I don't post from work. It simply doesn't take much time or effort to ridicule those who are already laughable.
Mmmm threats.... proof positive a loving deity really exists.
Bob, I can't wait to read what you assume those scriptures mean. Or, maybe you do since Jesus is warning us about heathens such as yourself.
Oooh "heathens."
Gonna start yapping about the "lake of fire" now, Jean? Or the "worm"? How about the "carnal" desires? I love it when you talk about "carnal" stuff!
Me, what do you mean by Jesus forgot my part of the world?
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, when are you going to learn the lesson that you own your issues?
HeavenSent, when are you going to grow an honest bone?
The changes will come, but be at least in part due to the introduction of new members into the various religious orders. Most people do not like admitting they were wrong when making a change, so the churches will need to create roles for the old guard without making them feel marginalized. I will be an ever evolving dance.
God does never change His spiritualism for His Holy Spirit is the Great Sea of Absolute Nothingness! Always was and is and will ever be no matter what matters of materialized shapes to tend to seemingly clutter up His spiritual abundancy.
God's Oddest Dope, do you TRY to be ridiculous, or does it just come naturally?
Tom. Shut up. You're an idiot.
@Jean
Ahhh yes, nothing like a childish tantrum to get your point across. Now stomp your feet, scrunch that pretty mouth into a pout and go tell the teacher the big kids are picking on you.
Oooh, my feewings are hurt! Jean doesn't like it when someone questions her qualifications as an interpreter of scripture! Boo hoo hooooo.
Oh no, Jean doesnot need to go anywhere to tell the big teacher. Remember the big teacher is omnipresent!
Apparently, the "big teacher" Jean has is not competent and high-stakes testing will likely weed him out of the job.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son,
If you you do every day in here is blaspheme one's name and ridicule their understandings, you a nothing but a beetch unworthy of writing in your stupidity's cunning amalgams bi-folded tongue!
"If you you do every day in here is blaspheme one's name and ridicule their understandings, you a nothing but a beetch unworthy of writing in your stupidity's cunning amalgams bi-folded tongue!"
What "cunning amalgams bi-folded tongue"? "If you you do every day in here"? Care to translate your drivel into English?
You're mental, Goon Of Doom. Do you really think anyone's buying your dreck?
Tommy one finger stole her a piggly wiggly and began to run,
The piggly wiggly farmer yelled, "Gitz me my gun!"
In taking good aim the farmer did shoot but one shot,
and salt did get her in her a s s for she deserved what she got!
Awww, poor baby. Go have another snort, dear.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, is obsessed with writing on this blog. So much for your family life dearie.
Prayer changes things
"Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
"Salvatore" degenerates to:
"Douglas" degenerates to:
"truth be told" degenerates to:
"Thinker23" degenerates to:
"Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
"another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
"Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
"tina" degenerates to:
"captain america" degenerates to:
"Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
"Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
"just sayin" degenerates to:
"ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
"Kindness" degenerates to:
"Chad" degenerates to
"Bob" degenerates to
"nope" degenerates to:
"2357" degenerates to:
"WOW" degenerates to:
"fred" degenerates to:
"!" degenerates to:
"pervert alert" is the degenerate.
This troll is not a christian. ,
Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.
Some 21st century reality:
Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals/pastors like the Stanleys and atonement theology,
Wow seriously? Atonement theology? If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with 2,000 years of established Christian theology. It's not "current" nor is it a "problem."
Reality is a modern day Phygellus and Hermogenes that insists false teachings of the ways of man supersedes Jesus' truth.
Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
\They turned away from the Apostle Paul, went back into bondage which is legalism forced to go back to Judaism aka bombarded by Judaism (false teachers).
My Word Lays Upon Truth's Doors
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
The troubles with trinitarians, those who belly-up to one god times three is, they read but only into it and get very little out of what they make 'go-spellingly' in amplifications of unblessed pleasings. Their preaching in devilish tongues beatifies only the dumb-hearted relics of their christiandumbness's idiosyncratic marmoset redundancies. Their godly moralisms are but self-centered and self-censored upon redundant principles that are archaic in cultured relics, those old fuddy duddues who fumble ever for their next glass worth of wine! Drunk and in stupors are the christiandumbs folds' in-undulations becoming sciatic pragmatisms unworthy of even one toasting for but rather against!
Godless and the ungodly, for these are the choices from which commonwealth atheists do make felt upon their habitual senses denying the goodly of ever moving ways of Godly intent. Many young-bucks of godlessness and the ungodly tender to avail themselves with the nailed doldrums' sciatica and do abound with much societal unpleasantries toward the abaters of wanton deniabilities against them, those ungodly and godless beings of smirked vials of randomized intention-abilities. Their deniabilities are not without compromising or so they do entail and also do weave upon the where-with-alls laments.
The mockeries of these godless and ungodly against the goodly who do themselves believe upon Godly importance may well live on past all and onto every garden's Aged endings. How else could Life Truly End and Real Living thusly Begin? To believe or not believe for these are Life's choices. Still yet are found mercies, for the mercifilled are one of Life's greatest treasures and livings' sweetest unending rewards.
It is truth that God has troubles within the fractal paradigms of inter-cellular cosmological 'activists' sometimes revolting against the grains of our embodied sanctifications creating many undulations of travesties not uncommonly viewed by us celestial beings as being viral and bacteriological in the way we understand things to be and become. What was first made can never again become that which was made first for only in varying differential constructs can another thing be made to be outdone against that which was firstly made. The pillars of one's DNA, the spirals of all celestial life forms and formations is where God's Sons and their given wives are taken in as residents there abouts.
It is truth that God has troubles within the fractal paradigms of inter-cellular cosmological wherein 'activists' sometimes revolt against the grains of our embodied sanctifications creating many undulations of travesties not uncommonly viewed by us celestial beings as being viral and bacteriological in the way we understand things to be and become. What was first made can never again become that which was made first for only in varying differential constructs can another thing be made to be outdone against that which was firstly made.
The Kingdoms of God lay where the inner structures of celestial Life do share in the abundancies of Living Fractals in Inter-Cellular Cosmological Paradigms. As mankinds' continual hunting for the Codifying of Life's laws in Cellularized Confinements continues onwards, many folks will ever become unendingly complacent upon our societal grandeurs for wanting sakes, trying valiantly never to be outdone by those who tend to be in broadest simplifications' adjuring. May we be merciful upon those who deservidely aspire to be merciful toward others.
A scattering is upon us in these trying days and Age. Leave your wantings behind and never take wind of one's longings for the weightiness of one's longings will smite even the most influential. Carry away nothing and leave. Head to the places inside one's being and do not keep ajar your door for many will want to enter in and should not. Your loving this Life is for the world to have needs of and you should not heed the rumors from others as to just what is truly right. It is therefore best for mankind to simmer in their yet unfinished juvenile pottages never rationalizingly 'assaying' one's diffuse detriments, the very smallest of life's grains. As smitten breeds, our splendors reveal one's characters to be traitorous to one's analogous fold. Where then does True Life end and Real Living begin?
Who before this day's Age is found worthy of Goodly praises? Who after us will find peace set before them? Who in today;s timeline is this "son of man" that many should fear him for his worthiness stance? Who above can see the below? Who that is below can see what be above? From the very smallest crevice to the most high chasms, the Sea of Nothingness is the Holy Spirit. May the elemental Gods find favor in this found son of man that he may not be afflicted with this world's power but rather he should carry upon him the angst from his manhood till his natural death.
What I spiritually believe in is that the Families of God including God Himself lives upon the very first created Cosmos which is the inner Cosmos. Our being but upon this celestial cosmos is due our being cast out of the Inner Cosmos for many reasons. Some were cast out of this Inner Cosmos for faultering and some for continuing to do the Lord's Will here upon this celestial realm of gigantic life forms whereupon their insides are living many families of God's members. We live upon this realm doing what we want while many of us unify ourselves in the communal. My way is not your way and yet when we cross paths we receive each other and after a spell do walk on and are parted.Therefore, walk placidly amid the noise and waste ever being mindful of the peace one finds in finding peace there about.
Is God to be made a mockery by those who tend to instill anti-leveraged pragmatisms? Are we to believe in the godless and the ungodly who care little about the piecemeal subjectives' ordinates?
Jesus, was the very first of many immeasurable 'elemental beings' and was in the Beginning an elemental king of all the elemental Gods. Jesus, in His cunning, did thru Chaos' manueverings, established the gravimetrical waves for the elementals to gather in broods thusly was formed the beginnings of celestial nebulas.
As time did force the nebulas to progressively surround the gravimetric oscillations where from did come about galactic formations of the elementals' soundness. As systems of photonic elementals, the infinitesimal finite elemental Gods did shower the solarized systems with their embodied beings. And in the Now, we are but made from the photonic elementals' stillnesses, the stardusts of the Ages.
My "Physicist" knows very well the quantum physicalities of natured atomic stimulations. I call this "Physicist" God. He has strewn His Sea of Nothingness with 'photogenitisms' or the stillness of the photons creating all manner of the first materials needed to become thru timeliness all the elementals' members of our declared Periodic Table of Materialized Photogenitis.
Sciences are but the dreams dreamt and are atheists' treasure troves of good books they hardly ever do read, for many atheists aren't too bright yet they stand by these scientists without one iota of deniability to question science books that even the commoner seldom reads nor truly understands. Who among us knows about the 'Self-Similar Cosmological Paradigm'? Who among us truly understands that energy equals mass times light squared and its' true potential? What is the point in adoring scientific reasoning when one's IQ level can be counted on ten fingers?
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
Inside of the Fractals within Bio-Cosmological Paradigms lays all inter-cellular activities only just recently becoming known by mankinds' Sciences. All religions have been left in the dustiness sideroads where Truth does prevail upon many of mankind's teachers students of Bio-Technicalities wanting to willingly know about the kingdoms of God which lay upon the insides of all celestially nomenclatured biological life forms and life formations.
As this Age of Great Enlightenments upon the Kingdoms of God does progressively teach one is taught from its outward creviced distances toward almost absolute finiteness or the very very smallest of distinguishable degrees, God will allow our students and teachers of such studies to meaningfully create biologic mechanisms for the better welfare of all our physical needs and trade orientated desires.
What I believe is; "The Cosmos is immeasurably full of ever unkowable to us universes." The 'analogous' variabilities of moving universes is so slow in their plights that trillions upon trillions times triliions of our years will pass by before any other universe will gain entrances onto any other universe. As our Ages of tenureships figuratively coalesce in the extemities ponderances, the forlorn and the 'un-abled' will ever need others to carry them along and alongside the tapestries of Life and its garnered adaptabilities. Love therefore and do never 'not' love for one would be wasting away their love for living and the need for loving is tantamount and above reproach.
I feel a compelling want to tell you about some verses in Gospel scripture. Is it not written to above all things to seek firstly the "Kingdom of God". This said, have you ascribed to doing so? Where does one look to or towards in order to find that which we are told to seek as scripture does declare one to do?
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God."
I've searched the Gospel writings and have found a single verse telling all who have found it as to the true and literal location of God's Kingdomly Domains!
Luk 17:21 "The kingdom of God is inside you."
I take Luke 17:21 quite literally and so should all who believe in One God and His One Son of perhaps oodles upon oodles of otherly Sons and Daughters too numerous to really expound upon! Christ is special because he was born to take upon his being the sins of those who were and then were also and of times yet to come! God's Kingdoms being inside us and within our ownliness bodies can also be associated with another verse of scripture ,,,,
,
1Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
The just above verse does tell much more than just glimpsing over it could proclude! Our being labourers with God may well seem to give us all an equal footing with God and his aspirations for our betterment's sakes! His being our husbandry may well regard God as having a firm footing in our conceptions of childbirthing beyond mere genetic understandings!
But in the aboveness verse, the very understanding that we or our bodies are God's buildings may well inspire one to disavow such a claim due one's foresightedness sakes and lacking of rationalisms' of credible resources. Yet, as I see things, we, our bodies are not only God established and God created buildings for the benefits of the Godly who reside inside of us, but are for our benefits for learning and understanding the precepts of "Fractal Cosmologies"!
We have seen that which our bodies are made up of and they are of cellularized structures not "unlike" nebula structures in outer space places! These celestial nebula structures are yet a work-in-progress and our body-like buildings are a progress in the works!
These words are revelations of my Faith as to my Godly understandings regarding the Kingdom Domains of God, his Sons and his Daughters-in-law and all forms and mannerisms of Life-ever-lasting principles and principalities of ever living progressives!
Written by God's Oldest Dreamer
Lionlylamb, do you get paid by the word? If I wanted to read a freaking book, I'd pick UP a book! Edit your posts for length and clarity, please!
First a few words about the Timothy epistle:
From Father Raymond Brown's ep-ic NT reference book.
Excerpts: The First Letter to Ti-mothy
p. 654, 80-90% of the critical sch-olars believe the letter was written by a pseudo Paul toward the end of the first century, early second century.
"Authenticity – Probably written by a disciple of Paul or a sympathetic commentator on the Pauline heritage several decades after the apostle's death.
p. 639 ditto for T-itus
See also Professor JD Crossan's conclusions in his book (with Professor Jonathan Reed), In Search of Paul, about Timothy and T-itus. (Same conclusions as Father Brown).
See also Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_Timothy#The_challenge_to_Pauline_authorship
Secondly, a prayer for the 21st century:
The Apostles' Creed 2012 (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
(References used are available upon request.)
And then some words about atonement theology:
(from Professor JD Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."
"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
If one does "literally believe" the above four verses of KJVB scripture you will then understand the Truth in God's Word!