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November 29th, 2012
12:40 PM ET
Short Takes: Gauging the impact of 'Purpose Driven Life,' 10 years onThis month marks the 10th anniversary of the best-selling hardback book in American history: Rick Warren's "The Purpose Driven Life." We reached out to scholars, religion experts and Warren's wife, Kay, to ask about the book's impact after a decade. Here's what they told us:
I knew when I was reading the unfinished manuscript of “The Purpose Driven Life” that I was holding a treasure in my hands, but I was clueless as to how deeply the book would strike a nerve in the souls of millions of people around the globe. I never go anywhere anymore without someone telling me how reading “The Purpose Driven Life” saved their life, their marriage, their daughter, their mother, father, etc.; gave them meaning and hope; answered some of their most baffling questions; restored their faith; and much more. I’ve heard these words from presidents and prisoners, stock brokers and drug dealers, average Joes and Janes, celebrities at the pinnacle of success, atheists and priests, skeptics and true believers, those near the end of life and those fresh with the promise of youth. I’ve heard it from pastors in the isolated mountains separating Thailand and Burma, and in the halls of power in Washington - all walks of life, all occupations, on nearly every continent, and all races, genders, and creeds. It seems that no matter who you are, if you pick up this book it will have something profound to say to you. I never get tired of hearing the stories of changed lives. Each one thrills me and reminds me again of how grateful I am that Rick spent six months of blood, sweat and tears and penned these simple yet soul-satisfying words.
Our research at Barna Group shows that "Purpose Driven Life" quickly elevated pastor Rick Warren onto the national stage. In our polling in 2005, pastors named Warren's breakout best-seller as the book most influential in their ministry. The success of the book, among other things, has led to significant influence for Rick Warren among clergy: 94% of Protestant leaders in the nation know of the Southern California leader and one-quarter of these leaders believe he is the most influential faith leader today. The book was, of course, a huge consumer phenomenon, and our research showed that one-quarter of all American adults - and nearly two-thirds of evangelicals - had read the book by the middle of 2005. Still, it is interesting that despite the publishing success, the book did not catapult Warren into broad, sweeping national awareness. At the height of the book's prominence, 83% of Americans had never heard of Warren. This does not seem to be some fault of his, but it showed that "Purpose Driven Life" was something of a "niche" phenomenon, a hugely successful enterprise that deeply affected one segment of the nation's population - i.e. evangelical Christians - but did not necessarily translate much beyond that segment. In fact, among non-Christians, nearly 9 out of 10 had never heard of Rick Warren. One of the interesting side notes often overlooked was the fact that "Purpose Driven Church," Warren's book before "Purpose Driven Life," was very successful in creating connections with Protestant leaders. This gave the follow-up book, which was intended for laity, an incredible groundswell of support, embodied in the 40 Days of Purpose groups that many pastors led for their churches. In some ways, it was a get-out-the-vote-type effort by the original social network - local churches.
Mara Einstein, author of "Compassion, Inc.: How Corporate America Blurs the Line Between What We Buy, Who We Are and Those We Help." I bought "Purpose Driven Life" at the height of its popularity. When I got it home and began reading, I was surprised by the overtly Christian language. Being Jewish, I found that rather shocking. How did this get on the best-seller list? Later, when I wrote "Brands of Faith: Marketing religion in a commercial age," I learned the answer to that question: "Purpose Driven Life" is the text for a church course called 40 Days of Purpose. Entire congregations signed up to participate in the course, which was launched simultaneously in more than 1500 churches in October 2002. The book was broadly distributed through these churches, where congregants who participated in the course received a significant discount on the book - leading to the 500,000-copy initial print run selling out quickly. Since then, thousands of churches have taken the course and millions of copies have been sold. From this come two long-term effects: Churches are seen as valuable distribution channels for products (think politics or Mel Gibson’s "Passion of the Christ"), and “purpose-driven” has become part of the marketing lexicon to describe brands that give back while creating profits. These effects are significant, but not for me. I returned the book to Barnes & Noble.
The huge success of "The Purpose Driven Life" surprised everyone - including Rick Warren. There are many reasons for its success, but here is one of them: Its message that every person has dignity because they are made in the image of God means that every life has a purpose. God has a special calling for everyone. Yes, there have been many other books that make this same point. But Warren pressed home the point again and again in almost every chapter. In a world where so many feel their lives are filled with meaninglessness, insignificance, anomie and uncertainty, his message that every person’s work and life has unique value struck a chord. More impressively, the success of the book did not go to his head. Instead, Rick and his wife, Kay, used the proceeds of the book to advance their concerns for those suffering around the world, especially those suffering from AIDS in Africa. They give generously of their time, their energy and their resources. They “reverse tithe” by giving away nine-tenths of their income to charity and to their favorite ministries. Their generosity and compassion are boundless and a sterling example for all of us, especially when preachers of the “prosperity gospel” are too much in our midst. In a time when the message of grace, forgiveness and redemption offered by the Christian faith is too often lost in the more temporal concerns of our various political disputes, Rick Warren has worked diligently to make sure the most important ultimate issues are not confused and blurred by lesser ones.
The success of "The Purpose Driven Life" in Rwanda is a provocative sidebar to the popularity of Rick Warren’s book. In a partnership with Rwandan President Paul Kagame, Warren has promoted his book since 2005 throughout the country, and Warren is part of Kagame’s Presidential Council advisory board. Stating that he wanted to turn Rwanda into a “purpose driven country,” Warren has held numerous rallies in Rwanda, and considers Rwanda to be his “second home.” Warren’s relationship with Kagame is interesting, given Rwanda’s troubled history and the Rwandan genocide. Kagame was wary of religious leadership, but "The Purpose Driven Life" presented him with an alternative blueprint for change, without a traditional religious structure. Warren’s participation in Rwanda is not much different from the 19th-century ministers who were sent to Africa to “Christianize” African people. Instead of the Bible, "The Purpose Driven Life" is now the text that changes the nation. While their partnership may create unease in some circles, Kagame and Warren’s alliance has important implications for how Christianity is shared not only as a belief, but a capitalistic endeavor. While it still too early to say if Warren’s popular tome has indelibly changed the nation, it is an interesting coda to Rwanda’s troubled history. The opinions in this post are solely those of the authors.
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Kay Warren is an author, speaker and co-founder of 
David Kinnaman, president of 
Michael Cromartie, vice president of the 
Anthea Butler, professor of religious studies at the University of Pennsylvania and author of "
fictional nonsense from another one of those con artists. yawn
@Jeff,
“How do you claim love? How can you show love? If you have children, I would assume you love them. Please show me the formula that can prove to me that fact.”
The electro-chemical reaction that we call love can be demonstrated in the rise in dopamine and serotonin levels in the brain. Also, mapping the areas of stimulation in the brain will show that certain areas are stimulated when a picture of the target of affection is shown to the subject.
Wow, isn’t science grand?
Oxytocin
@Honey Badger Dont Care
I stated this below, but I will here as well...I didn't know that love was provable. I would love to read up more on this...do you have a book you could recommend? I could just Google it, but just curious if you had something off the top of your head.
Prayer changes things
actions cause change; prayer wastes valuable time.
I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".
I see that you repeat these unfounded statements with high frequency. Perhaps the following book can help you:
I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
@jeff
terrible logic. really terrible.
"Yet you say atheism is not a religion. That's odd. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs."
religion is defined as a set of beliefs? atheism is the lack of belief. what is hard to understand here? if you say you don't believe in unicorns - is that a religion? you're trying to make atheism into a religion and you are failing. i also don't believe in santa or the tooth fairy - so i guess i'm unwittingly in a religion for both? grow up, use some logic. atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.
footybunk is wrong
That was Jim, not Jeff.
i apologize, Jeff. yes, that was @ Jim.
@Bootyfunk...no worries...we disagree on different things! LOL!
Luckily people in the past looked at the sunrise, and said I wonder why that happens, and then set out to find out instead of just being o.k. with "god did it"
Happy to not have given this charlatan a single cent! I recommend any books by Hawking, Dawkins, Hitchens, or Jillette.
Rick Warren is a theif and a liar. Who gives a shat what that fat tard says?
@Badger. RAmen!
I absolutely agree!!! I hope this comment isn't removed as abusive because it's succinct and absolutely correct.
Truer, more accurate words were never spoken.
christianity is a cult, like any other. what is the difference between a religion and a cult? religions are accepted by society; cults are not. there is no other difference. all religions are built on ignorance. all religions teach you to turn off your brain.
unclasp your hands. get up off your knees. think for yourself. go outside. put those hands to use helping your brothers and sisters.
congratulations – you're now a better person.
no you are in a cult if you worship a human or demigod
Jesus is a human, and allegedly a demigod
Christianity is a cult
One post, three different names. Copy/paste is alive and well.
Calvin: Why are we here?
Hobbes: Because we walked here
Calvin: why are we here
Hobbs: because earth can support life
Calvin: No, I mean why do we exist?
Hobbes: Because we were born.
Calvin: Forget it.
Hobbes: I will, thank you.
Nice. Hobbes said it. Best cartoon ever, IMHO.
And in less than ten seconds Christianity and all other religions come crashing down the hill of con jobs (along with Warrens):
Only for the new members of this blog:
Putting the kibosh/”google” on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
Added details available upon written request.
A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.
e.g. Taoism
"The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.
Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother's womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. "
Atheists believe in self-anhilation after death: There is nothing after this life.
Atheists believe that there are no gods, goddess or higher powers.
Atheists believe that everyone should believe the same way they do.
Atheists have groups of people that actively engage in converting people to their way of believing.
Atheism is a religion, just like any other religion. Atheism is as extreme as christian fundamentalism.
If you'd like to be your own person, try being Agnostic. You can do as you please, believe as you please and be a good person without having to believe in what other people demand of you.
@Jennifer is/Andtherearemoreofus
Looking to become another cut an dpaste troll I see. Well people like you tend to throw themselves into the realm of complete irrelevancy quickly enough.
@ hawa...you're so funny! You're the one to talk about cut and paste...you're on EVERY single belief blog just so you can spread your atheist propaganda...you're like the TOM CRUISE of atheism.
Good luck with that, hypocrite.
Uh yeah hawaiiguest....I've seen you on every single belief blog for months! Want to talk about trolls? Look in a HUGE mirror buddy...
HG is no troll. He points out your idiocy and you don't like it, plain and simple. And he doesn't need to constantly use cut & paste to make points, he writes them himself as if obvious if you took the time to read any of them.
jennifer, you are in a cult. it's called christianity. get up off your knees. think for yourself.
you want to talk about being a good person? the bible says to KILL g.ays, non-virgin brides, disobedient children and anyone working the weekend. the bible supports SLAVERY throughout - there are rules for beating your slaves and rules for selling your own daughter into slavery. god drowned every single human on earth but one family in his great flood – so god murdered BABIES. read that again - god drowned BABIES.
the bible is digusting.
i agree with Jen
@ Sam
then you're dumb.
Atheists believe in self-anhilation after death: There is nothing after this life.
wrong. we believe we all live natural lives and death is a part of that. no self-annihilation. just death. we believe we are all equal - unlike christians who think people who don't believe exactly what they believe are worthy of eternal torture. quite the 'loving' god.
Atheists believe that there are no gods, goddess or higher powers.
exactly. no fairies or bigfoot either.
Atheists believe that everyone should believe the same way they do.
we think people shouldn't be deluded into thinking there really is an all-powerful sky-fairy above in a cloud kingdom watching our every move. we don't want everyone to think like us - we just want everyone to think.
Atheists have groups of people that actively engage in converting people to their way of believing.
talking people into thinking for themselves, into leaving the cult, yes. cults are unhealthy.
Atheism is a religion, just like any other religion. Atheism is as extreme as christian fundamentalism.
you obviously don't understand the word 'religion'. atheism is not a religion in any sense. and if we're so extreme, where's your extreme examples? where the atheist that shot an abortion doctor in the back or blew up an abortion clinic? where's the atheist hate group similar to a christian hate group, like the KKK? atheism and christian fundies? bad comparison.
If you'd like to be your own person, try being Agnostic. You can do as you please, believe as you please and be a good person without having to believe in what other people demand of you.
you can be an atheist and a good person. if you think the two are mutually exclusive, it just goes to show how deep into the cult you are. atheists have a lower divorce and prison rate than christians: fact. statistics don't back up your lies.
@Superman and Wesurvive
So apparently being active in discussion and calling people on the wrong or ignorant things they're posting is trolling? You may need to spend more time on the internet and learn exactly what a troll really is. I think the posts I've made that are more than 2 paragraphs and actually quote people I'm responding to completely blows your claim that I'm a troll completely out of the water, or out from under the bridge if you prefer.
I see the crazycakes faction is out in force today...
@Bootyfunk
You concurred that you dont "believe" in any god(s). Key word believe. Yet you say atheism is not a religion. That's odd. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs. You cant give me the mumbo jumbo of "lack of belief". Having a lack of belief would mean you are intellectually neutral about a belief or disbelief. You believe in the non-existence of god(s). You dont believe in god(s). This is not a neutral position. Therefore atheism is a religion.
@Jim
Wow you have a really loose definition of religion. Is your non-belief in Zeus a rligion onto itself? Is your non-belief in Vishnu a religion onto itself?
Watch out, everybody, Jim thinks he's original and making sense.
onto is Hawaiian for unto (which still isn't quite the right word)
Summarizing with a prayer (btw, only for new members as older members have been saying this prayer for months):
The Apostles' Creed 2012: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
(references used are available upon request)
"Uh yeah hawaiiguest....I've seen you on every single belief blog for months! Want to talk about trolls? Look in a HUGE mirror buddy..."
A good idea would be to learn the definitions of terms prior to using them incorrectly.
Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"
Not so fast !! Said passage is a single attestation i.e. only appears in Luke 23:34 making it historically inauthentic. See for example, http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb005.html and Professor Gerd Ludemann's an-alysis in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 404-406 and pp. 694-695.
(1) Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear
these friends.
(2) Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
(3) Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behaviour, each time expecting different results.
(4) Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
(5) Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil," "the devil," "an agent of Satan".
(6) Emotional abuse – religious concepts such as sin, hell, cause feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and other types of emotional "baggage" which can scar the
psyche for life.
(7) Violence – many patients insist that others should share in their delusions, even to the extent of using violence.
"father forgive them, for they knoe not what they do....unless they don't accept me as the messiah....then burn em forever!"
@Teavangelist : “Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"”
He also said
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
–(Luke 14:26)
The bible started in aramaic, went thru greek and latin and now we have english (I may have missed some steps).
the word 'hate' above really means "not love more than" or "let go of"
"Professor Gerd Ludemann's" reality, really now, that's diggin' deep in ye olde latrine hole.
Here they come...bash what they cannot understand and try and make us feel dumb for feeling what we do.
I'll lay it out there for everyone...atheists won't reason with us because they demand proof. What we feel and the relationship we have with Christ is absolutely unexplainable.
To my Christian friends on here...please let these atheists doubt and let them mock. No amount of words you try and express will be met with intelligent dialogue or desire to understand you better. I would recommend that you seek out some atheists you know that you can sit down with. At least in that setting you can have a civil conversation even with your differences. Sadly, that will not take place on here...
Amen, Jeff. what they ask is like asking "here. use this thermometer to capture the picture of you and me together". when you say no you need a camera the ranting starts.
@Jeff
I point you to:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/27/my-take-givingtuesday-creates-better-christmas-narrative-than-black-friday/comment-page-1/#comment-1986707
Perhaps the conversation I've been having with VanHagar and DamianKnight may change your tune on what can occur here.
Also, I would ask, have you ever tried to find out why individual atheists demand proof the way they do or why they seem as angry as they are?
I respectfuly disagree. As an atheist, I enjoy many civil conversations with believers of many different faiths on this blog. I do not question anyones right to believe what they will, until that belief infringes upon the civil liberties of others. The moment someone on this blog as-sumes a position of authority because of their belief, it is the duty of everyone to demand verifiable evidence supporting their claim. What many (but, not all) believers seem to have a problem with is when their claims of knowledge and authority are questioned at all. It is not a sign of disrespect to demand verifiable evidence supporting your claims, but rather an opportunity to present verifiable evidence that sparks dialog and understanding.
hawaiiguest...I apologize for lumping everyone in together...certainly rational conversation CAN occur on here. It has just been my experience that it is not likely. There are some very intelligent posters on this blog on both sides of the conversation.
My frustration is with those that scoff at what I feel in my heart. They ask for proof they know I cannot provide. I cannot prove to them that I love my children either, but that is just as real as my love for God.
We discuss the bible and they throw it in my face as a man based book full of contradictions and stories. I cite the bible vs. the Iliad as a reasonable comparison only to have the websites I reference dismissed because they are Christian in nature.
So hawaiiguest, where do we go? Round and round about proof and feelings. If I cite certain things that appear to me to be a fingerprint of God, someone will post a Dawkins reference that tries to explain it away. Yet Dawkins himself has said in an interview with Ben Stein that life could have started on a different planet through some Darwinian means...yet he refuses to acknowledge the mere possibility of God. Why? Am I so misguided...along with over 90% of the world's population...because I believes in a higher power? Do we all suffer from a lack of intelligence that all of you seem to posses?
I don't mind the conversation one bit...but if we have one, it has to be with an understanding that you will never prove away the feeling I have and I can never explain it to you.
I agree it's better to sit down face to face. But there are a few here that are willing to have an intelligent conversation. Unfortunately, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Most only want to call names, blaspheme God and talk down at you.
As a former atheist, I'd have to say a lot of the anger comes from wrongly thinking the Christians feel they are better than you (which is theologically incorrect) and that they want to control you (also wrong as I can't make you do anything.)
" What we feel and the relationship we have with Christ is absolutely unexplainable."
yep – that's a common form of dementia.
@hawaiiguest and Eric G
...here's Gary to prove my point. Again...I know all of you are not like this...but this is the common comment on these blogs.
You can, in fact, have civil discourse with an atheist. Here's how the conversation should look like:
C – "Hi, I'm a Christian."
A – "Hi, I'm an atheist."
C – "It's some nice weather today, don't you just love America?"
A – "I sure do!"
C – "Well have a great day!"
A – "You too!"
But far to often that conversation looks more like this:
C – "Hi, I'm a Christian."
A – "Hi, I'm an atheist."
C – "How can you be an atheist, don't you love America?"
A – "Yes I love America, what has that got to do with being an atheist?"
C – "Well all atheists hate America and are depressed and have no hope for the future..."
A – "Well I love America, I am happier than iv'e ever been, and like the majority of atheists I did not start out an atheist but was a christian for quite some time, and I have a wonderful hope for the future, that of seeing my children grow up and suround me before I too pass away in the cycle of life on this planet."
C – "No you aren't, because that just doesn't fit with my pre-concieved idea of how you should be!"
A – "Well then, I'm not sorry to disappoint you..."
C – "You know you are going to burn in heII right?"
A – "I'll be going now...bye."
C – "Well take your gay loving God hating condemned ass out of my country!!"
A – 'sigh'...
@Jeff
Phew, where to start.
"My frustration is with those that scoff at what I feel in my heart. They ask for proof they know I cannot provide. I cannot prove to them that I love my children either, but that is just as real as my love for God."
I think the problem here is that some people, while not all, will assume the religious person feels that everyone else should accept their concept of god and convert. Please note that I'm not saying that you feel that way, but it is fairly common.
"We discuss the bible and they throw it in my face as a man based book full of contradictions and stories. I cite the bible vs. the Iliad as a reasonable comparison only to have the websites I reference dismissed because they are Christian in nature."
This could bring up days of conversation on its own, but the most concise thing I can say is that an entire religion isn't built around the iliad, so its accuracy or lack thereof isn't very important.
" If I cite certain things that appear to me to be a fingerprint of God, someone will post a Dawkins reference that tries to explain it away."
I've never read a book by Dawkins, Hitchens, or Sagan, so I don't think that's a worry for you when it comes to me.
"Yet Dawkins himself has said in an interview with Ben Stein that life could have started on a different planet through some Darwinian means...yet he refuses to acknowledge the mere possibility of God. Why?"
We know natural processes exist, we know these processes can create life from basic elements. This makes it much more possible, and even plausible given the size and age of the universe. When you talk about god, you are getting into the supernatural, which has never been demonstrated or measured. The lack of evidence is the basis of rejections of the claims, which leaves no possibility for those who don't believe.
"Am I so misguided...along with over 90% of the world's population...because I believes in a higher power? Do we all suffer from a lack of intelligence that all of you seem to posses?"
I used to be a believer, and when I deconverted I didn't suddenly get smarter. It's not any kind of lack of intelligence, rather I would say a higher power is somewhat a part of human nature. But the prevalence of an idea doesn't really say anything about whether it's true.
" atheists won't reason with us because they demand proof. What we feel and the relationship we have with Christ is absolutely unexplainable."
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You folks won't even supply ordinary evidence.
We hold you fundiot nutters to the same standards we hold scientists. If you make a claim, back it up. Provide the actual evidence that supports the claim. Science does this. You fundiot nutters refuse to do this.
@Primewonk
I don't think Jeff has shown that label applies to him. I think lack of understanding on both sides is the major frustration for him.
jeff, you need to be deprogrammed. you require proof in every other arena of your life - but religion. go the extra step - use your brain when it comes to deities. god does not exist. it's okay. you're still alive. the world goes on. time to grow up now...
@hawaiiguest
what lack of understanding have atheists shown?
@hawaiiguest...I appreciate the dialogue! Let me respond...
"I think the problem here is that some people, while not all, will assume the religious person feels that everyone else should accept their concept of god and convert. Please note that I'm not saying that you feel that way, but it is fairly common."
Very true statement here. There are very loud and outspoken Christians that are a gross misrepresentation of Christianity as a whole. I never set out to convert anyone...it's not really my job. I talk about my relationship with Christ and leave it at that. Some want to know more, some don't. Fair enough either way.
:This could bring up days of conversation on its own, but the most concise thing I can say is that an entire religion isn't built around the iliad, so its accuracy or lack thereof isn't very important."
LOL...probably so! I merely bring this up to talk about the purity of the writing...nothing more. By the standards used, the bible is considered to be more than 98% pure from the original text. Whether your believe any of the text is a conversation for a different time!
"I've never read a book by Dawkins, Hitchens, or Sagan, so I don't think that's a worry for you when it comes to me."
That makes two of us...I'm in good company then!
"We know natural processes exist, we know these processes can create life from basic elements. This makes it much more possible, and even plausible given the size and age of the universe. When you talk about god, you are getting into the supernatural, which has never been demonstrated or measured. The lack of evidence is the basis of rejections of the claims, which leaves no possibility for those who don't believe."
This is where we likely start to disagree. I look at a sunrise and see God. I look at the intricacies of life (from humans to ants) and see a very deliberate design in their nature. I see the love a father has for a son and a puppy has for its mother and see the supernatural. Is it measurable? No. Demonstrated? I say yes, but cannot disagree when you say no.
"I used to be a believer, and when I deconverted I didn't suddenly get smarter. It's not any kind of lack of intelligence, rather I would say a higher power is somewhat a part of human nature. But the prevalence of an idea doesn't really say anything about whether it's true."
Fair enough.
@bootyfunk
The lack of understanding that not all religious people on this blog are like HeavenSent, Chad or fred. People like the ones I listed have made it no secret that they think that everyone should believe as they do. As far as I've seen, there are some religious people on here that don't think like that, and I don't think that it's necessary to go to be as "in your face" with people who have given no reason.
@Primewonk...
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You folks won't even supply ordinary evidence."
The issue is that my evidence does not register in your mind as evidence. I see deliberate intent in life, you see chance and a scientific explanation. Again, I cannot disagree with your conclusion, but I do not know how you so easily dismiss mine.
"We hold you fundiot nutters to the same standards we hold scientists. If you make a claim, back it up. Provide the actual evidence that supports the claim. Science does this. You fundiot nutters refuse to do this."
How do you claim love? How can you show love? If you have children, I would assume you love them. Please show me the formula that can prove to me that fact.
Primewonk...I understand your points all around, but you demand something from me I will never be able to provide. What discourages me is that I am labeled dumb or weak-minded because I arrive at a different conclusion than you do given the same facts.
""We know natural processes exist, we know these processes can create life from basic elements. This makes it much more possible, and even plausible given the size and age of the universe. When you talk about god, you are getting into the supernatural, which has never been demonstrated or measured. The lack of evidence is the basis of rejections of the claims, which leaves no possibility for those who don't believe."
This is where we likely start to disagree. I look at a sunrise and see God. I look at the intricacies of life (from humans to ants) and see a very deliberate design in their nature. I see the love a father has for a son and a puppy has for its mother and see the supernatural. Is it measurable? No. Demonstrated? I say yes, but cannot disagree when you say no."
here's the difference. the puppy exists. you can touch the target of your affection. can't do that with god. just like if i love a coffee mug. the coffee mug exists and that can be proven through empirical testing. can't do that with god. pretty big difference, right? you see proof of god in the sunset? that tells me you see what you want to see. that's the biggest difference between atheists and christians. NOTHING can change a christian's mind - atheists just need proof, showing we are open-minded, christians are not.
at the heart of it, all christians think atheists are going to be tortured for ever and are deserving of it. some are louder than others, but that disgusting believe is at the heart of it.
@BootyFunk
"here's the difference. the puppy exists. you can touch the target of your affection. can't do that with god. just like if i love a coffee mug. the coffee mug exists and that can be proven through empirical testing. can't do that with god. pretty big difference, right? you see proof of god in the sunset? that tells me you see what you want to see. that's the biggest difference between atheists and christians. NOTHING can change a christian's mind – atheists just need proof, showing we are open-minded, christians are not."
Again...show me the equation for love. You say you love the mug...I'm going to need you to prove that to me.
@jeff
if you were born in isreal, you wouldn't believe in the christian god. if you were born in a small village in the congo, you wouldn't believe int he christian god. if you were born in tibet, you wouldn't believe in the christian god. what god you believe in depends on where you're born. doesn't that tell you something?
you ignore proof and see what you want. you are the very definition of close-mindedness.
@The Truth – I'd laugh, but that has actually happened to me several times, and I'm never the one who starts the conversation. LOL The moment satan or hell is mentioned, I usually bail as gracefully as I can get away with.
i can show you the object of your love - a puppy. you can hold it, smell it, hug it, take it with you to the store and show other people - see how god fails those same tests?
@Bootyfunk...
"at the heart of it, all christians think atheists are going to be tortured for ever and are deserving of it. some are louder than others, but that disgusting believe is at the heart of it."
I feel as though God has given us all a chance to choose. In the same way a choice has a consequence, so does this. When you say tortured, I disagree with your understanding of the word 'torture' though. This sentiment to me is how the non-believer will feel when they are separated from God for eternity. There will not be a mulligan on this choice, but I do not believe you will be tortured...just that you will feel that way as you are separated from your Father.
Posted in the right place now:
Luckily people in the past looked at the sunrise, and said I wonder why that happens, and then set out to find out instead of just being o.k. with "god did it"
yes, god gave us a chance to choose. sure, he didn't provide proof or an actual reason to believe... but we can all bow down and kiss his @ss and then we won't be tortured forever. wow. believe in me or be tortured forever. disgusting. only a monster would give such a choice. and it doesn't matter that i'm an atheist that works for a charity organization. doesn't matter that i'm an atheist that goes out of the way to help old ladies across the street. doesn't matter that i'm a good person - i'm an atheist, so i deserve eternal torture. only a god of pure evil would do such a thing. if there is a god, i'd spit in his face and tell him i'd rather go to hell than spend time with a megalomaniac that drowns babies.
Saying Dawkins does not allow for the probability of some god is a flat out lie. He clearly allows for the probability but puts it at very low. How many believers allow that there is a probability that no gods exist? Almost none 'cause as soon as they do their delusional beliefs begin to fall apart.
@Jeff
Atually, using MRI's and such, we can measure love through specific brain activities. Love exists, we know this, we even know some of the chemicals released during that time of feeling that. We even see the effects of love, and can draw direct causation.
@sam – it only look's like a joke at first glance, but is the cold hard truth.
Jeff wrote, " How do you claim love? How can you show love? If you have children, I would assume you love them. Please show me the formula that can prove to me that fact."
Love is an emotion. Emotions evolved. There are whole sub-fields of evolution that deal with the evolution of emotions. Love is simply the release of the neuro hormone oxytocin. We can track it. We can watch specific brain regions light up in fMRI studies. We can watch the transition from attraction to lust to new love to enduring love. We can watch what happens in individuals unable to love. We can watch what happens in folks with abnormalities in love.
Jeff wrote, " I feel as though God has given us all a chance to choose"
Your version of a god claims both omnipotence and omniscience. Any god worth his or her salt claims these powers. So your god knows if I am going to heaven or hell. Your god knew this before he created me. Your god knew this before he created the universe. If he didn't, he isn't omniscient or omnipotent. And if he isn't, he isn't worthy of your worship.
If your god knows that my ticket is punched to end up in hell, how can I surprise him and knock on heaven's gate? Conversely, if your god knows you are slated to head to heaven when you die, how can you show up in hell instead?
I can't show up where god has known for eternity that I can't go. Same with you.
Thus, your god is purposefully creating billions and billions of people, knowing that he is going to send them to hell for all eternity.
You may call that a loving god. I call it a sick sadistic cretin.
To me, Jeff, one of the problems with fundamental Christian doctrine is that many are taught that non-materialistic things in life (as Chad likes to call it), things like love, morals, etc. are something "owned" by Christianity that non-believers cannot possess (the "God works within you" lessons might indicate such "ownership"). And, of course, Christians differ quite a bit on their tenets for those non-materialistic aspects of existence – so much so that they are often arguing as much with other Christians as they are with non-Christians. So while many Christians frequently in disagreement with other Christians, they are ever to ready to lay judgment on each other and on non-Christians for many things that are not even clear in their basic tenets. So the conflicts, to me, are evident both from within the religion, in the sources for the tenets, and quite obviously in the outward expression of those tenets through the various flavors of Christianity. You would expect some difference between followers, but there are so many issues where different Christians are very divided – women's involvement in the church, gays, celibacy, contraception, abortion, etc. So, honestly I have little patience with a Christian who is going to try to tell me something about contraception and that only they have the correct interpretation of the Bible (when we know different Christians are so much in disagreement on such as issue). And that brings me back to my inital point – it is pure hogwash that any specific religion "owns" love, morality, etc. It's a ludicrous notion on many levels. At the same time, I do know Christians who are not judgmental, who do know that they are not the only ones in the world with morals, and who are intelligent and very giving people.
@Jeff
I believe the great difficulty in these atheist/religious discussions is that there is no rational response to an emotional argument – and faith is a powerful emotion indeed.
Faith is, by definition, unquantifiable – which can be a hard concept for a naturalist to accept.
Unfortunately, all too often the "rationalist" response is to respond to emotion with more vociferous emotion.
As Dr. Graffin said "ignorance is the root of fear and fear is the kindling of anger". People on both sides of the faith debate can be willfullly ignorant of the other's worldview.
It is important that we all remember that those with whom we are debating are not villains in their own eyes.
Keeping this in mind can open doors to friendship – or it can allow us to dismiss the argument quickly and without hate.
typo correction – my sixth line down should say: ". . frequently are in disagreement . ."
"I'll lay it out there for everyone...atheists won't reason with us because they demand proof. What we feel and the relationship we have with Christ is absolutely unexplainable."
Wait, WE won't reason with YOU,,,,,you just said YOU can't "reason" because it is "unexplainable".....that makes no sense.
"blaspheme God "
.
Pardon me I must chuckle because it sounds so primitive to hear
Stop the fear mongering...its getting quite old.
Wow! Go to lunch and see the comments explode here!
Let me first say that I appreciate the comments from the majority of you...you seem to be respectful in your words and, though we may not ever agree, I appreciate the conversation just the same. I'll do my best to replay quickly to each of you:
@Pete...I am all for exploration and further understanding of those things we don't understand. With that said though, I can also look at some things and be content in my lack of understanding. If that sounds ignorant, I don't know what to tell you. I think the majority of what you want to explain turns into a, "yeah, but..." conversation. You can show me science, and then I can say, "yeah, but what about where that came from?" Eventually, you will find yourself at a point where you must say "yeah, but science will figure that out at some point." There is nothing wrong with your thought process. For me though, I see God as the root. Could God have used science in all that we see around us? I think that answer is abundantly clear...YES! Science is provable and allows us...in my mind...to see the fingerprints of God in our world today. I fully accept your rejection of that statement...but it is my belief nonetheless.
@Bootyfunk and Primewonk...yes, I can understand why you would think that God is mean. I don't know what to say except that I view our ability to choose as how much He loves us. So much so that we can reject Him instead of being robots programmed to serve Him. God has spoken to you I'm sure in many ways, but...at the very least...through this blog. You have chosen to reject Him. That's your choice of course, but how then can you claim that you didn't know and that God was unfair to you?
@hawaiiguest and Primewonk...I guess love can be tracked! I was not aware of that to be quite honest. I guess I will need to do some more reading about that! Even still though, my soul is my soul, right? Me...as an individual...can't be proven, right? I mean my thoughts and ideas and my feelings and all of that. Sure, you can show some brain activity increase, but that doesn't sum up me, does it? I would really appreciate a link or a book or something that I can check out on this. I'm sure I could just Google it too, but if one of you has a recommendation, I would appreciate it!
@mama k...I certainly cannot disagree with your post. There are many ignorant Christians that are out there that make claims and statements on Christianity's behalf that disgust me. I cannot tell you much about those people, but I can answer for myself. I want every gay person on the planet at my church on Sunday. Actually, I want EVERYONE at my church on Sunday. Not with an intention to convert, but with a desire to set the record straight. Whatever your lifestyle, you have sin. So do I. There is not one of us able to escape that fact! I am in no position...nor do I care to be...to start looking at your sin vs. my sin. Some 'Christians' want to vilify hom.ose.xualtiy for some reason. I can't explain their 'crusade' on that topic to you.
@Doc Vestibule...very well stated. I cannot say that better so I won't try. I agree with you 100%.
Jeff wrote, "Could God have used science in all that we see around us? I think that answer is abundantly clear...YES! Science is provable and allows us...in my mind...to see the fingerprints of God in our world today."
First off, in science we do not prove things, we explain things. Proofs are for matths, ethanol, and yeast doughs.
You claim god could have used science. This statement has the exact same validity as saying that the giant invisible fuzzy pink unicorn could have used science. We have perfectly valid science to explain the the expansion of this universe back to the Planck Epoch, just like we do for abiogenesis and evolution. Adding a god to mix adds no additional explanatory power. Adding a god to the mix adds no more facts or evidence. It only adds an unnecessary layer of complexity that is not needed or warranted.
"I guess love can be tracked! I was not aware of that to be quite honest. I guess I will need to do some more reading about that! Even still though, my soul is my soul, right?"
This link might help you understand some of whats going on in the brain with regards to love, empathy and oxytocin.
http://www.wimp.com/trustmorality
So rick warren dyes his hair blond and people don't think he's gay?
h8rs
(1) Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear
these friends.
(2) Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
(3) Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behaviour, each time expecting different results.
(4) Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
(5) Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil," "the devil," "an agent of Satan".
(6) Emotional abuse – religious concepts such as sin, hell, cause feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and other types of emotional "baggage" which can scar the
psyche for life...
(7) Violence – many patients insist that others should share in their delusions, even to the extent of using violence.
Atheists believe in self-anhilation after death: There is nothing after this life.
Atheists believe that there are no gods, goddess or higher powers.
Atheists believe that everyone should believe the same way they do.
Atheists have groups of people that actively engage in converting people to their way of believing.
Atheism is a religion, just like any other religion. Atheism is as extreme as christian fundamentalism.
If you'd like to be your own person, try being Agnostic. You can do as you please, believe as you please and be a good person without having to believe in what other people demand of you.
(1) Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear
these friends.
(2) Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
(3) Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behaviour, each time expecting different results.
(4) Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
(5) Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil," "the devil," "an agent of Satan".
(6) Emotional abuse – religious concepts such as sin, hell, cause feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and other types of emotional "baggage" which can scar the
psyche for life.
(7) Violence – many patients insist that others should share in their delusions, even to the extent of using violence.
W.T.F is a Rick Warren?
It's a variety of pumpkin.
I laughed at this, I'll admit it.
Your assertion is correct, "gary". A Rick Warren is a variety of pumpkin.
Atheists believe in self-anhilation after death: There is nothing after this life.
Atheists believe that there are no gods, goddess or higher powers.
Atheists believe that everyone should believe the same way they do.
Atheists have groups of people that actively engage in converting people to their way of believing.
Atheism is a religion, just like any other religion. Atheism is as extreme as christian fundamentalism.
If you'd like to be your own person, try being Agnostic. You can do as you please, believe as you please and be a good person without having to believe in what other people demand of you.
That is quite a nice straw man you have built there.
@ Pete, you mean I copied you that well? Thank you!!!
The question is, does Rick get a "DEEP THROATED ENDORSEMENT" from Franklin Graham like Romney did? Seems like all religious people are the same. Gay.
The article really doesn't make sense. Rick Warren doesn't make sense. Was Jesus as fat and as gay as Rick Warren?
An unmarried 30 year old carpenter living with his 12 guy friends living during a period where most males were married by the age of 16...
Not as fat, but more gay.