December 14th, 2012
06:17 PM ET
Massacre of children leaves many asking, 'Where’s God?'
By Dan Gilgoff and Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editors
(CNN) – As he waited with parents who feared that their kids were among the 20 children killed at a Connecticut elementary school on Friday, Rabbi Shaul Praver said the main thing he could do for parents was to merely be present.
“It’s a terrible thing, families waiting to find out if their children made it out alive,” said Praver, who leads a synagogue in Newtown, Connecticut, and was among nine clergy gathered with parents at a firehouse near Sandy Hook Elementary School, where the shooting occurred.
“They’re going to need a lot of help,” Praver said of those who are close to the dead.
From the first moments after Friday’s massacre, which also left six adults and the shooter dead, religious leaders were among the first people to whom worried and grieving families turned for help.
Over the weekend, countless more Americans will look to clergy as they struggle to process a tragedy in which so many of the victims were children.
“Every single person who is watching the news today is asking ‘Where is God when this happens?’” says Max Lucado, a prominent Christian pastor and author based in San Antonio.
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Lucado says that pastors everywhere will be scrapping their scheduled Sunday sermons to address the massacre.
“You have to address it - you have to turn everything you had planned upside down on Friday because that’s where people’s hearts are,” Lucado says.
“The challenge here is to avoid the extremes – those who say there are easy answers and those who say there are no answers.”
Indeed, many religious leaders on Friday stressed that the important thing is for clergy to support those who are suffering, not to rush into theological questions. A University of Connecticut professor on Friday hung up the phone when asked to discuss religious responses to suffering, saying, “This is an immense tragedy, and you want an academic speculating on the problem of evil?”
“There is no good answer at that time that anyone can hear and comprehend and take in,” said Ian T. Douglas, the bishop for the Episcopal diocese of Connecticut, referring to counseling family and friends of the dead. “They’re crying out from a place of deep pain.”
Praver, the rabbi, will join a memorial service Friday night at Newtown’s St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic Church.
“We’re going to have a moment of prayer for the victims,” Praver said of the service. “We cannot let it crush our spirit and we march on.”
Some national religious groups are also sending staff to Newtown, with 10 chaplains dispatched from the North Carolina-based Billy Graham Evangelistic Association on Friday.
Public officials including President Obama, meanwhile, turned to the Bible in responding to the shooting. “In the words of Scripture, 'heal the brokenhearted and bind up their wounds,' ” Obama said from the White House, citing the book of Psalms.
On Twitter, #PrayForNewton became a trending topic.
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
Some religious leaders argue that modern American life insulates much of the nation from the kind of senseless death and suffering that plagues much of the world every day.
“Most of the world, for most of the world’s history, has known tragedy and trauma in abundance,” wrote Rob Brendle, a Colorado pastor, in a commentary for CNN’s Belief Blog after this summer’s deadly shooting in Aurora, Colorado, which left 12 dead.
“You don’t get nearly the same consternation in Burundi or Burma, because suffering is normal to there,” wrote Brendle, who pastored congregants after a deadly shooting at his church five years ago. “For us, though, God has become anesthetist-in-chief. To believe in him is to be excused from bad things.”
My Take: This is where God was in Aurora
Lucado said there was an eerie irony for the Connecticut tragedy coming just before Christmas, noting the Bible says that Jesus Christ’s birth was followed by an order from King Herod to slay boys under 2 in the Roman city of Bethlehem.
“The Christmas story is that Jesus was born into a dark and impoverished world,” Lucado says. “His survival was surrounded by violence. The real Christmas story was pretty rough.”
Many religious leaders framed Friday’s shooting as evidence for evil in the world and for human free will in the face of a sovereign God.
“The Bible tells us the human heart is ‘wicked’ and ‘who can know it?’” the Rev. Franklin Graham said in a statement about the massacre. “My heart aches for the victims, their families and the entire community.”
Many religious leaders also said that such tragedies are a good time for lay people to express doubts about God – or anger.
“This is a time to go deep and pray,” says Lucado. “If you have a problem with God, shake a fist or two at him. If he’s God, he’s going to answer. And if he’s in control, he’ll find a way to let you know.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
god does not exist, so therefore santa is not real.
I know, why don't you guys get some brains. Here is my proof that god does not exist. This is something, like science
that you can test for yourself, and don't have to take my word for it:
This is a reply from me to someone trying to tell me to just accept something. I quoted their statement first after several discussions, then followed it with my response of the PROOF that god does not
exist. The truth needs to be known.
this is hard to understand and logic is not going to help you."
This is where i refuse to not use logic. See everything you are quoting is from a book. I never met jesus, and neither have you. The fact that I am using logic, and my brain (that god created if he does exist), proves that he actually does NOT exist. I know because I cried for a very long time, when i did not get an answer after asking him to reveal himself to me FOR 10 YEARS. This is very difficult, because I really did want him to exist, but I REFUSE TO BE DISHONEST
TO MYSELF TO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE. As for people that claim to have faith as your self. You don't really have faith, neither do many people that claim they have faith. Deep down, you really don't know that god exists. My proof: EVERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE THAT DID RECEIVE FAITH, HAD DIRECT CONTACT
WITH GOD IN SOME FORM. For example, the 12 apostles, lived with jesus for 3 years. They lived with god, they did not have to just think it’s true, they experienced it. You keep going down the line, moses, abraham, all of them had some strong communication with god WITHOUT JUST ACCEPTING, THEY EXPERIENCED
GOD. Even after jesus died and came back to life by the holy spirit. Thomas said, I will not believe until i put my finger in his wound. WHAT DID JESUS ACTUALLY DO???? HE SHOWED UP. I know this because i truly asked, with all of my heart. And one thing i can always rely on is that i stayed honest to my self this entire journey. Logic and truth is the only thing left, and we began this
discussion on logic and FACTS.
So in conclusion, humans can not be fairer than god, and when people say that we can't understand god, that is different than going against all common sense, reasoning and logic that he CREATED for us to use. So how do i know that you don't really know that god exists? Simple, this god created both you and me. So how
come you know that he exists, by just accepting, when I actually went directly to him to find out if he is there???? The answer is simple, because god can not be less fair than a human, he therefore does not exist. A true loving parent does not favor one child over another, and in the same sense, god if he does exist, can not play favorites, and allows for all humans on earth to simply
accept something. Even now, when you read a book, any book, we as humans, we are skeptical, we don't just blindly believe everything we read. If i gave you the koran, you do not blindly accept it, you ask questions. Well jesus, if he is god, did not come down with a book, there was no bible like you have today for 1000 years later. jesus came down so that he personally delivered his true message with out a book. if god wanted us to know that he exists through books,
he could have just dropped a million books from the sky, instead of coming down and going through all of that torture.
Many times i was tempted to just accept and say this is true, only because it made some sense, but it isn't that simple. For
example, if you and I are in the same room, and there was an apple in the room, we WOULD NOT DEBATE OR EVEN HAVE A SLIGHT DISCUSSION ABOUT IF THE APPLE EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST. The fact that people debate the existence of god (such as you and i) means it is not as simple as ACCEPTING.
I hope some of this logic (truth) got through to you, if not, then you can try asking your self for 10 years, and truly wait for an answer. Not just coincidences that many people mistake for god, but truly wait, until he does answer you. If you read your bible, you will notice that he did in fact answer all of the main characters, whether it is in the form of a burning bush, or blinding st. Paul. it was an act of the supernatural that the characters in the bible received, before they actually claimed to have TRUE FAITH.
AFTER ABOUT MORE DISCUSSIONS GOING BACK AND FORTH, HERE IS THE LAST POST BACK TO THE BELIEVER.
then let me change the question. Did you KNOW that god existed at 5 years old? The answer according to your statement is NO, you only felt god. OK, how did you feel god, and I did not feel god? Please answer that question as well.
I already told you, I AM NOT INTERESTED in belief. I don't care to know about opinions. I was only interested in the past 15 years of
only knowing 100% for a fact that either god does, or does not exist. There is nothing wrong with you having beliefs and opinions, BUT, there is also, nothing wrong with me going after THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You said, that you can't prove that free will exists, then by that logic, then you can't prove that god exists. So why do you make the connection of free will to god, if you can not prove either one?
I agree with you, my position is a strange one, I claim to be an atheist, because, I am 100% sure that there is no god, but at the same time, i claim that i don't know were we came from. BUT,
if you were to list 5 hypothesis of were humans came from, and i was a scientist trying to figure out which of these five are true, I would have
already ruled out the existence of god. So, yes an atheist because god does not exist, but also, still not know the ultimate answer to the ultimate question.
I am not concerned with labels, you can call me an atheist, and agnostic, you can even make up a new word for my position.
I don't care. What I care about is the TRUTH.
The experiment to PROVE if god exists, is right in front of you. I already mentioned it. Ask god to reveal himself to you. It is reproducible, and you don't have to look to the past for this. If god does exist, then he EXISTED IN THE PAST, PRESENT, AND THE FUTURE. So what is god doing to day???? Does he not answer to humans approaching him???
Again, look at the logic of what I am saying, and before you dismiss
them, try to find out what is WRONG with the logic, then I WILL CHANGE, because i love truth, and facts.
Now for your last statement, were you state this is the bottom line. Again, i agree we have free will, or free choices, or freedom, or what ever you want to call it, BUT, so what. I already answered this, not with an opinion, but with FACTS. Is it true, that many others
on EARTH, acknowledge that free will exists, BUT STILL do not "SEE" the existence of god? So how come you
are "special" enough to know god's existence from simply ACCEPTING this, but not others? Did god make you
better than others?
So before you keep going back to YOUR reason of using free will, how about for once you answer some of the LOGIC THAT I PRESENT TO YOU. Where is my error in asking god to reveal himself to me.
I asked you many questions, so please on your next post, try to answer all of them. I read your posts slowly and i try to answer your points one by one, and not skip over anything.
let me give you an analogy, if you had 3 beautiful babies, all very small and innocent in the knowledge of life, and you the parent, and you are full of love towards your 3 babies, would you send one of them to even 1 minute of torture?
If god has more love towards you, than you even love your babies, then how can a god give us a system of simply ACCEPTANCE, AND BELIEFS, AND OPINIONS, to JUDGE WHETHER we go to heaven, or helll? Remember, you can not even torture your baby for even one minute, but helll is eternal damnation, and torture.
So, here is the logic presented to you that YOU MUST FACE:
Human A, chooses to ACCEPT that god exists because he says that free will exists, so god must exist. Human B, goes directly to him, for 10 years seeking him (i stopped searching the last 5 years because
of the conclusion that god does not exist), and searching for him, and wanted to know of his existence. Human A goes to heaven, but Human B suffers eternal TORTURE. See here is were the TRUTH, AND HONESTY IS STARING YOU IN THE FACE. god loves ALL HUMANS, more than YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN, but yet you cannot torture you own child for one minute, yet this ALL LOVING GOD, punishes humans for eternity. Now proceed with your answer. Careful to not go back to your FREE WILL SOLUTION AGAIN, because i am pretty sure that i gave you several evidences from the opposite point of view. So please, even if you agree with your FREE WILL conclusion, tell me ONE ILLOGICAL STATEMENT THAT I HAVE MADE, AND I WILL CHANGE THAT STATEMENT IN
SEARCH OF THE TRUTH.
HERE IS THE NEXT CONSERVATION OF ME REPLYING TO THE BELIEVER:
i see that you say you don't have time, but you do not have to respond all in one day, we can continue this for months. SLOWLY.
Your quote "What kind of relationship would you have with someone in your life if you say you trust each other and love each other yet at every turn there are interrogations, covert surveillance, and blood tests?"
Before a relationship begins, I would first have to KNOW the other part of the relationship, ACTUALLY EXISTS.
Your Quote "If you say today okay last time, god please make me float for 2 seconds and he did it."
That is not what i did, i asked without ANY restrictions, for god to simply reveal himself to me. I am sure god is smart enough to answer me in his OWN METHODS, and because god is SMART ENOUGH, I would not have ANY DOUBTS, WHEN HE DOES ANSWER.
Your quote "I don't know the ins and outs of your life. I went to church,
maybe my brain is different, maybe each person has a different road to find God, maybe some are ready to see and others not, maybe some people are in their own hell and others in their own heaven, how do we know we love a partner and why don't they love us at exactly the same time?"
Here is your DISHONESTY AGAIN: How can you ask ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS about your brain being different at 5 years old? That maybe there are different roads to god, that maybe others are ready to see at 5 years old, and some aren't, and some are already in hell, and some aren't?
How come you can THINK OF ALL OF THIS, BUT not bring in the questions of "What if there is not a god at all" Sounds again, like you only ACCEPT god exists, and then try to RATIONALIZE OF WHY HE MUST EXIST AFTER THAT.
That is not honesty, that is simply making an opinion, and then rationalizing everything after that, WHICH IS WHY IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR HUMANS TO CHANGE THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM.
GO TRY ASKING SOMEONE THAT IS MUSLIM OR ANOTHER RELIGION TO SEE YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
Your quote "I make the connection with free will to point out the illogic
in many people's thinking, that with only the laws of physics and no God you can defy the laws of physics and have a choice."
I have only given you logical statements, in which if you correct them, then i will change my position. Again, why do OTHER HUMANS see FREE WILL, BUT DO NOT SEE GOD?
Your quote"It would be great if we could check our smartphone for God in a reproducible manner, like we are checking for a cell signal. Why is that not the case?"
How do YOU KNOW AND CAN SPEAK OF WHAT GOD CAN AND CANNOT DO?? You mean to tell me that he told you that he does not reply to humans in a reproducible manner? Or is it that you don't want to concede that it does make sense to ASK GOD! Ever heard of "Ask and you shall receive"?
Your quote "Where is your error in asking God to reveal himself? I
wouldn't call it an error to want that. Just because your request or demand of God wasn't answered under your conditions doesn't mean that God is not there."
I never demanded, but i did request of god, yes to reveal himself to me. I never placed any conditions, because I wanted to know ONLY if god existed, and not make my own judgement of what god is like. Why would i go through 10 years of this, by placing a condition on god, if i really wanted to know if he does or does not exist. Again, this is reproducible, and you cannot say that science does not contain LAWS, THAT WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW ARE TRUE. And in science if we make mistakes, and we thought something is TRUE, THEN WE CAN CHANGE, THROUGH THE REPRODUCIBILITY OF THE EXPERIMENTS. We can test, and test, and test until we know the truth.
Remember if your god exists, he also created science.
Your quote "People who believe in Christ saw miracles and some believed and some still didn't."
Which is why your position of simply accepting that god exists, simply because free will exists, sounds really ridiculous. When people actually in REAL LIFE witnessed REAL MIRACLES before their eyes, and still MANY WOULD NOT BELIEVE, yet you ONLY ACCEPT GOD EXISTS BECAUSE FREE WILL EXISTS. This SUPPORTS MY STATEMENTS OF THE FACT THAT KNOWING GOD EXISTS IS NOT SIMPLE!
Besides, we are on the issue if god existed, and how do you know that god existed. How do you now know that jesus is god, or that he did exist? Wait, let me guess, you read the bible, correct. So again, to my earlier statements, god wants us to know if he exists by only reading books. What about other religions, and other books????
So, one perfect god, creates many religions. That again is even more evidence that god does not exist. One perfect god, can not create many different religions. That would mean he is trying to confuse his children.
Your quote "But again you will never explain why that matter and energy, physical switches in the brain, 'feels' something any different than another set of physical switches like a computer or has any free will of its own."
I never claimed that science knows everything. Actually it is the exact OPPOSITE, THE MORE WE DISCOVER THINGS, THE MORE WE DON'T KNOW.
But that does not mean, that science is not important to use for the search of god's existence.
I have a question for you? Why do you think of so many reasons of why god should exist, BUT YOU NEVER ASK YOUR SELF THE QUESTION, THAT MANY HUMANS ASK, what if god does not exist? How come you don't rationalize that statement?
Ok, now back to the proof, of why you don't know that god exists:
you answered at the beginning that you don't know that god existed at 5 years old, but you only felt him? Correct? can you tell me what exactly did you feel that led you to believe that what you felt at 5 years old, made you think, that these feelings are from god?
Also, let us go to when you KNEW god existed, and not when you felt him? Tell me, at what age, and exactly what convinced you that god does exist? Now here is were we can end our conservation. Only Reply to me to this question, ONLY IF THIS EVENT IN REAL LIFE CONVINCED YOU 100% THAT GOD EXISTED, BECAUSE I AM NOT INTERESTED IN AN OPINION, OR A BELIEF.
If you answer that you know 100%, then we can keep talking, if you answer that this EVENT, kind of maybe led you to think that god exists, then I AM NOT INTERESTED, BECAUSE, THEN YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT
HE DOES EXIST. And that, can not be enough. We are NOT AS HUMANS, GOING THROUGH LIFE, ONLY TO MAYBE KNOW IF THEIR IS A GOD!
protip: start your own blog, chump.
i love how "knowledgible" christians are on what their god thinks and wants.
imagine,if you will, that all the great minds in history that made huge leaps in scienctific studies had simple answered all questions with "GOD DID IT."
where would we be today?
1) no alternating current seeing god didn't do that.
2) no life saving medicines seeing god didn't make those either.
3) no expansion into "the new world" aka america seeing god didn't do that.
4) no exploration of the universe seeing that is god's domain.
5) no hurricane, tornado, or earthquake warning systems seeing that is god's method of exacting his wrath on we humans.
6) no automobiles seeing god only made horses and other beasts of burden.
7) no hospitals seeing the sick,elderly, young, are suppose to die, "it's god's will."
8) no firearms seeing god provided man with sticks that are truly more effective at self defense.
the world would be a sad, cold, lonesome place without humans being brave enough to say " GOD DID IT....................ISN'T QUITE GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME."
All I can say is if you believe in an all-powerful, invisible, 'hide-and-seek' god who created everything, the ultimate arch-enemy of evil, who loves his creations more than we can know, and listens to the prayers of people who ask for their safekeeping ... NOTHING that happens in the world makes any sense.
On the other hand, if we simply accept that the world has a lot of wicked, mentally disturbed people and god is nothing more than an imaginary fairytale dreamed up by primitive ignorant camel drivers, EVERYTHING makes sense!
I love how God is kicked out of schools, public arena, and even CHRISTMAS.. and then we blame God for everything that people CHOOSE to do wrong.. blame it on guns, movies, music, the media, mental illness etc.. but of course NO ONE blames the actual INDIVIDUAL for making such a heinous choice to take lives. and aftewards, where do people go. to a CHURCH to pray.. wouldnt give God a moment of their lives, but when tragedy strikes, its all God's fault.. you can NOT have your cake and eat it too nor can you have it "both" ways.. either believe in God and realize that GOD put humanity into motion, it's HIS plan, but OUR choices that burn the path into eternity.. just some of us make BETTER choices than others.. God sees EVERYTHING in light of eternity.. we only see what's right infont of us. But of course in threads like these, and public discourse, let the hipocracy and blame begin..for it has never actually ended.
of course this is AMERICA.. where its NEVER an individuals fault...no NEVER... but in this country, someone is to Blame and someone has to PAY!!!! let the blame begin..and unleash the lawsuits!
brad – Well said! You put God and true faith in perspective. Best comment I've read for a long time. God Bless you.
@brad: i imagine the parents of those children are asking "what did i do wrong for god to take away my children?"
they went to church, they feared god's wrath.
so what happen? and don't give me that free will BS.
if god is real and has a plan then he knew long before he ever made any of this that that crazy would kill all those children, yet he still permitted him to be born.
first of all, brad, god is not kicked out of the schools. people can pray in school. it is just ORGANIZED PRAYER which is banned. why is it so hard for the faithful to see the difference.
secondly, if god is omniscient, he knows all of this will happen. how can he be surprised?
"you can NOT have your cake and eat it too"
god cannot be both omniscient and surprised
@RICHARD: knock off your hollering. The choir needs singers, not screamers. There are plenty of off-key hollerers already. Either take voice lessons or shut up.
If you were my grandmother i'd put you in THE home. Never heard so much dirt coming from an elderly lady. Must be depressing to be you.
I feel a bit sorry for people who are desperately trying to twist logic so that they can explain this and still believe in their myths.
My condolences to you Ann, on being a victim of your failed education system. It takes logic, reasoning and intelligence to be able to recognize the fact that God exists.
When someone like yourself refuses to believe in God – you don't believe in 'something else'; you believe in 'anything else'. Like money, power, denial, oh and SELF [ not realising of course that humanists do nothing except relegate man to animal status!
How sad are you?
So Decent Asshole, please demonstrate your superior intellect and reasoning by explaining why you beleve in myths that are not supported by a single bit of objective, factual, independent or verifiable evidence.
"It takes logic, reasoning and intelligence to be able to recognize the fact that God exists."
You sure have an issue confusing fact and opinion
How does logic tell you a god exists?
There is no easy theological answer? It's not surprising that this sort of gutless godless remark should issue from the mouth of an Episcopal prelate. That crowd has been spiritually and morally dead for decades. I know because I was one of their number and I'm ashamed to admit it.
The real answer is that God has been told to take a hike. Where is God? He is right where we told Him to go – AWAY.
When prayer is illegal, when all references to God, Christ and the moral framework of the ten commandments are expunged from public life, then the public life will be subject to tears of loss and the tragedy of bloodshed.
This nation has forgotten God, has become a race of God – haters and scoffers. The power of true religion has been denied and we are reaping the whirlwind of disaster we have sewn. False ministers of the church are only concerned about their social position and jobs – NOT ABOUT THE TRUTH. They are the most poisonous snakes in American society.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
You are not in a choir loft. You are in a padded cell for the delusional mentally ill.
It actually makes sense to you that your god punishes everyone, believers and non-believers, because there are too many non-believers? What kind of god is this?
Richard, why do people like you have to lie to try to make a point? If your god is so puny that he needs governmental endorsement to stick around, why would I worship him?
Your god hasn't been told to "take a hike." You and your ilk have been told that this is not a theocracy and that the government cannot favor one religion over another, nor can it endorse a belief in a particular god by using publicly paid for property to display that god's laws.
NOBODY has ever been forbidden to pray. NOBODY. Stop lying.
richard believes in "The power of true religion"
i wonder what that is, exactly.
What moral framework of the Ten Commandments? Breaking the Biblical laws is punishable by death. In the case of murder, it is reasonable to argue that this is a just punishment, but killing someone for committing adultery, or worshiping a God other than Yahweh, or having a graven image, or not obeying the Sabbath, or believing in no God, present a moral problem. In other words, with a few exceptions, the Ten Commandments are not moral at all when one thinks of them in conjunction with the punishments that are supposed to be administered for breaking them.
Good for you Richard. At least you know what you believe – and you'll stand up for it!
Ignore Tom, Tom – he's a sad, bitter old guy with nothing going for him but the ability to vent his ignorance month after month.........sooooo boring.
"When prayer is illegal"
Prayer is not illegal, ORGANIZED PRAYER IN SCHOOLS is. Try to keep up
Deviancy: Tom Tom is a woman
The people who tend to shake their fists and finger-point at God tend not to help those who need comforting in times of dispair. Visit those in prison, help the poor, dig wells in Africa, spread the Gospel to all the world. Show love and compassion to strangers. Christians do these very things throughout the world. Atheists will gather to protest, complain about religion (mostly Christianity) and post online. No love shown by them, only complaints and promotion of a godless, humanist agenda. This is the difference...
Except for all the secular humanist charities that do all those things, minus the ridiculous spreading irrational beliefs thing.
Seems like a good time and place to remind all that you can donate, without the bullsh!t of religion, at richarddawkins.net.
Awfully vane to put yourself on such a high pedestal; that you and those with like minds are the only ones capable of love, caring and compassion. Isn't vanity (pride) one of the seven deadly sins that you believe in?
All good hearted people were deeply saddened in the aftermath of the school shootings last week. Many including religious leaders either blamed God for this tragedy or said he needed more angels in heaven. These are false statements. If people read the Bible they will find who is responsible for this tradegy and all the deaths in the world for thousands of years–Satan the Devil. He rebelled against his loving father in heaven wanted to be worshipped by people on earth. He caused the first human pair to sin and die which in turn led all descendants to die from inherited sin. Sometime later he caused other angels to rebel against God and these joined Satan his trying to turn the entire human race against serving the true God. These are murderers and liars who only want humans to suffer and die.
During the time of Job in Bible history, he challenged God and stated people only served him because of what he gave them, not out of love. He then said if man is persecuted and under grievious trials they will turn against God. The book of Job then states he immediately set out to cause the man Job much misery. In one night Satan caused a windstorm that KILLED ALL OF JOB'S TEN CHILDREN who were enjoying a meal togther.
Thus, the murderous intent of Satan and his demons increased as time went on. Influencing wicked men and women to
kill without conscience due to bad associates, violent television, movies and video games. The Bible correctly identifies Satan as "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"-(1 John 5:19) and "The one called Devil and satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth"–(Revelation 12:9)
When Christ Jesus came to earth to provide himself as a ransom to offset the sins of Adam, Satan tried to kill him too. After Jesus baptism, Satan used three tests to get God's son to serve him. One of these is at Matthew 4:8-11, "The devil took him to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory. and he said to him. "ALL THESE THINGS I WILL GIVE YOU if you fall down and do an act of worship to ME." Then Jesus said to him, "Go away Satan! For it is written, It isd Jehovah your God you must worship and to him alone you must render sacred service."
Jesus knew that Satan ruled the world but would not fall for his wicked scheme. He remained faithful to God
Human governments can pass thousands of laws against violence and even ban guns. But as long as Satan and his demons are alive to influence wicked men and women to carry out horrible crimes, these negative stories will continue.
God promises honest hearted ones at Psalms 37:9-11, "For evildoers will be cut off, but those hoping in God are the ones that will possess the EARTH. And just a little while longer and the wicked one (Satan) will be no more. And you will certainly give attention to his place and he will NOT BE. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, andf they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of Peace."
As the Bible joyously prophesies, the earth will return to Paradise and only righteous, loving persons will live in harmony together under God's Kingdom. Then all those who have died and live in God's memory will be ressurected on earth with the happy prospects of living forever. Then families worldwide will welcome back their dead loved ones in tearful reunions where parents will welcome back their children; children their parents, etc etc.
There is obviously a contradiction between an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good God and the existence of evil. Clearly, something is wrong with the assumptions, and it's certainly not the existence of evil.
The only contradiction here is in false assumption. If a nation rejects God – like 1930s Germany or twenty first century America, then evil and wickedness follow.
The absence of light is darkness and that is not a contradiction. It's the truth.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
You think Sandy Hook was bad? God killed over twice that many kids for calling Elisha bald:
2 Kings 2:23-24
He's a fair and just god!
I will keep it short and simple (for the believer and the no believer) Just show me creation of a human being threw cloning with out seed of male or female and if science can do that for me then I will follow him,the body is a complicated creation and because of that If you can be recreated threw cloning then I will follow you but my GOD say's the man of his own nature has to be shown to believe even when JESUS Christ walked and did miracles among the people thy did not believe,and can you clone animal's and creature's of the sea,and insect's that crawl the earth so if who ever can clone any of these please show me and I will follow them ,can a magic man do this I will follow him,as far as good and evil I have experienced both sides but my happiness fall's under the guidance of GOD and the writing's of his prophecy's,under evil in my live here I was not a happy person and felt like something just wonted to make me do more evil so I found my happiness and the shine of light threw my GOD he gives you that choice so you decide what side you wont to be on I know what side I wont to be on and It's not man and scientist,and for lost children threw violence he say's thy become as angels,thy are not of age of account ability and not knowing of good and evil, now man or woman at age of account ability he say's will be judge at judgement time by the work's of there lives,devastation on earth is a sign of unhappiness in his creation.how much devastation in the middle east besides killing and destroying of human live just how much devastation has there naturally been there 'in which is his chosen people to come back and clam his thrown over evil,and the word say's thy shall be judged harder than any generation there after !SO have your own theory for It is not for me to chose for you or you to chose for me or any other human to chose for me !SO have a good day folk's and a merry Christmas,and a happy new years GOD bless all A-man
As your own post proves, it's impossible to criticize science when you don't understand even a whit of it.
I think Joe has been watching too many episodes of the X-Files. It has affected his cognitive processes.
Oh Gezzz People Don't Blame GOD on this terrible thing it is Evil that wants humanity to forget and Blame GOD. Specially during this time of Year
when is a good time to blame god?
OK, I won't blame god.
Because there is no god to blame.
People will lay the blame on anyone and everything except where it belongs – on themselves. Sandy Hook was the result of a lack of mental health treatment and a denial of God. It is caused by man's inhumanity to man. Blaming anything except American love of murder and violence is ludicrous and stinks of self-delusion and religious bigotry.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
This is a reply from me to someone trying to tell me to just accept something. I quoted their statement first after several discussions, then followed it with my response of the PROOF that god does not exist. The truth needs to be known.
"Now this is hard to understand and logic is not going to help you."
This is where i refuse to not use logic. See everything you are quoting is from a book. I never met jesus, and neither have you. The fact that I am using logic, and my brain (that god created if he does exist), proves that he actually does NOT exist. I know because I cried for a very long time, when i did not get an answer. This is very difficult, because I really did want him to exist, but I REFUSE TO BE DISHONEST TO MYSELF TO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE. As for people that claim to have faith as your self. You don't really have faith, neither do many people that claim they have faith. Deep down, you really don't know that god exists. My proof: EVERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE THAT DID RECEIVE FAITH, HAD DIRECT CONTACT WITH GOD IN SOME FORM. For example, the 12 apostles, lived with jesus for 3 years. They lived with god, they did not have to just think it’s true, they experienced it. You keep going down the line, moses, abraham, all of them had some strong communication with god WITHOUT JUST ACCEPTING, THEY EXPERIENCED GOD. Even after jesus died and came back to life by the holy spirit. Mathew said, I will not believe until i put my finger in his wound. WHAT DID JESUS ACTUALLY DO???? HE SHOWED UP. I know this because i truly asked, with all of my heart. And one thing i can always rely on is that i stayed honest to my self this entire journey. Logic and truth is the only thing left, and we began this discussion on logic and FACTS.
So in conclusion, humans can not be fairer than god, and when people say that we can't understand god, that is different than going against all common sense, reasoning and logic that he CREATED for us to use. So how do i know that you don't really know that god exists? Simple, this god created both you and me. So how come you know that he exists, by just accepting, when I actually went directly to him to find out if he is there???? The answer is simple, because god can not be less fair than a human, he therefore does not exist. A true loving parent does not favor one child over another, and in the same sense, god if he does exist, can not play favorites, and allows for all humans on earth so simply accept something. Even now, when you read a book, any book, we as humans, we are skeptical, we don't just blindly believe everything we read. If i gave you the koran, you do not blindly accept it, you ask questions. Well jesus, if he is god, did not come down with a book, there was no bible like you have today for 1000 years later. jesus came down so that he personally delivered his true message. if god wanted us to know that he exists through books, he could have just dropped a million books from the sky, instead of coming down and going through all of that torture.
You don't know if god exists, and as sad as it is, because i wanted him to exist, he does not exist. Many times i was tempted to just accept and say this is true, only because it made some sense, but it isn't that simple.
For example, if I and you are in the same room, and there was an apple in the room, we WOULD NOT DEBATE OR EVEN HAVE A SLIGHT DISCUSSION ON IF THE APPLE EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST. The fact that people debate the existence of god (such as you and i) means it is not as simple as ACCEPTING.
I hope some of this logic (truth) got through to you, if not, then you can try asking your self for 10 years, and truly wait for an answer. Not just coincidences that many people mistake for god, but truly wait, until he does answer you. If you read your bible, you will notice that he did in fact answer all of the main characters, whether it is in the form of a burning bush, or blinding st. Paul. it was an act of the supernatural that the characters in the bible received, before they actually claimed to have TRUE FAITH
From now on, anytime anyone goes to the doctor or hospital, they should be asked what religion they are and then be directed to the nearest Church, Synagogue, Temple, etc... where they can then be prayed over, anointed with oil, bite a rattlesnakes head off, or whaterever other rubbish it is they believe (I laughed out loud at PPLRWRD saying Scientists can't agree- Ha!- Religions can" even agree within their own denominations). All technology and Science should only be for those who support it and believe in it. The others who believe in the all loving, all powerful god should keep their fatih in him when they have pneumonia or cancer (He gave it to you after all- right... or did you get through it thorugh your freewill?) and not abandon Him to our pagan Science.
Science somehow equates to atheism? Tell that to Charles Townes.
Doggie daddie, you can't handle science.
PPLRWRD – you make your god sound so petty and vicious. I wonder why you would follow someone like that – is it only for the reward? Or out of fear of punishment? Any bully can create that situation.
If I believed your god was real, a god that lets little children be gunned down because some people don't believe in him – I'd have to oppose such a vicious creature, not follow it. You paint a very evil picture of the being you claim to serve.
God isnt allowed in schools, so how can he protect them children???
@Hotrod People have the power to keep God from where he needs to be?? Doesn't sound like much of a God. Oh wait..."God won't go where he isn't wanted." Well politicians and officials "keep God out of school" (whatever that means...as if you can't teach your children to believe whatever you want spiritually. Why not pray with them in the morning before school? Read some scripture and tell them to pray to themselves throughout the day. I digress). So God isn't able to differentiate between innocent children and adults who don't want anything to do with him? Or does he just not see anything wrong with making them pay for the "mistakes" of adults that made decisions they don't even understand?
unfortunetely God can't even protect children in church, under the hands of His priests. it seems allowing God in certain places has no effect on where He allows harm to happen.
I KNOW THAT YOU WERE THERE
(Newtown, Connecticut- December 14, 2012)
You saw the darkness of his heart
And shed an anguished tear,
But you bestowed free will on men
And could not interfere;
You knew that you would share the blame
For those you could not spare,
But when they cry out, "Where was God?"
…I know that you were there.
With one foot firm in heaven
And the other here on earth,
You welcomed every precious child
Upon their new rebirth;
You wiped the torment from their eyes
And smoothed their tousled hair,
Then gathered each in your embrace…
…I'm glad that you were there.
You came again to earth that night
And stood out in the rain
To search for those about to drown
In pools of swirling pain;
But only time can mend a heart
Destroyed beyond compare,
While you stand weeping at their side…
…I know that you're still there.
And since your god claims both omnipotence and omniscience, he is directly and personally responsible for each those 20 little kids being ripped apart by an assault rifle.
Many people (including me) define a belief in god as a mental illness. "The God Delusion" is a book that comes to mind. Now, here we go again with the "Where was God?" stuff, same as a few months ago in Aurora. Maybe THE FAITHFUL COULD JUST SHUT THEIR MOUTHS this time around. We know one thing for sure, Mental Illness caused all this death, some more Mental Illness from religion is NOT going to help. I'd like to see a poll of how many NRA members identify themselves as "christian" or "very christian." It's time for the religious people to shut up this time around.
Dude, chill. Your blind arrogance is incredibly shallow. There are literally millions of intelligent people out there who choose to believe in a God or whatever that gives them comfort. I posted a video of Christopher Hitchens earlier doing one of his final interviews, dying of cancer. What seems ironic to me is that as part of his diagnostic workup, he would have to have undergone series of testing, including having an image taken of your tumor through an MRI at some point. I was just thinking it's funny that the guy who invented the MRI is a man by the name of Raymond Vahan Damadian. Damadian was not only a man of religion, but a man who actually goes as far as believing in creationism.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm an atheist – but religion isn't a mental illness for most people.
And since personal experiences are not something provable nor disprovable, it's not irrational to base your beliefs about the world on your personal experiences, whether those say there is or is not a god.
if you believe in imaginary men in the sky – yes – you are delusional.
and yes – delusional thinking is a cognitive dysfunction. there isn't anything healthy about it.
"the God Delusion" was chock full of theories that were debunked by expert. Dawkins could not or woud not defend himself against their findings
Dawkins was a one-dimensional wannabee Theologian but actually hawked a load of trash and reduced man to animal status!
The only people who give him ANY credibility are the less than able who reckon that quoting him ad nauseam will somehow make them "intelligent"...............BY THE PROCESS OF OSMOSIS!!!!!!!!
Decency costs Nothing spewed: ""the God Delusion" was chock full of theories that were debunked by expert. Dawkins could not or woud not defend himself against their findings"
which experts dubunked what theories in r.dawkins book "the god delusion"? would you be so kind as to elaborate?
" if he is in control he will find a way to let you know" if he was in control he could have stoped this..you have a better chance of getting help from a Jedi than god
Or maybe he can be in control but we spend so much time kicking him out of our lives that he doesn't take control. Then we sit and yell at him, deny him, and mock those who choose to follow him for our own screw ups.
He was probably too busy watching NASCAR, helping football players score touchdowns, and TV stars win awards.
how are we kicking god out of our lives? because we do not desire state support for it?
keeping things in the most simplest of terms: there aren't any gods.
yet the less evolved, ignorant, delusional, knuckle-dragging, idiot rabble rousers scream:
THEY TERK AR GERD OUT OF SKEWLLLLLL!!!!
THEY TERK AR GERD!!!!!
PPLRWRD – you make your god sound so petty and vicious. I wonder why you would follow someone like that – is it only for the reward? Or out of fear of punishment? Any bully can create that situation.
If I believed your god was real, a god that lets little children be gunned down because some people don't believe in him – I'd have to oppose such a vicious creature, not follow it. You paint a very evil picture of the being you claim to serve.
@PPLRWRD: "Or maybe he can be in control but we spend so much time kicking him out of our lives that he doesn't take control."
Always with the excuses. There is no evidence that your god has ever protected anyone. Ever. And every single time an example of this reality is offered you people make some excuse. Every time. The beauty of being an atheist is that one simple answer addresses all of these questions: There is no God. Those four simple words replace volumes of excuses offered by believers trying to rationalize the lack of any evidence that their god or gods exist, why he never helps anyone, whether it was these kids or six million Jews in WWII or hundreds of millions of other people who have been killed, tortured, abused, or otherwise mistreated throughout history.
God was rejected at the so-called Garden of Eden incident; He was rejected by the nation of Israel during the time of King Saul. When His son Jesus Christ appeared, Christ was rejected. So why do so many people wonder where He is...Almighty God is not a masochist. Currently, we are rejecting all His law and commandments while expecting Him to intervene. We're the collective problem.....not God.
You can't really believe that, Paul. Actually, you probably really do. Amazing.
Another drooling Mike Huckabee parrot.
Face it: your "god" didn't stop this because he's not there.
If you prefer, you can choose to delude yourself and believe that he killed 20 blameless young children out of spite, but then you have to ask yourself: is a god like that worthy of worship? Why would you pay any attention at all to such a cruel, insane being?
I don't wonder where he is. I wonder why any rational person would believe these fairytales.
I wonder why you are all so confident he isn't there? My heart tells me there is a God. A room full of scientist all say that we came from a big bang yet none can agree with each other how it worked or why it occured and none of them have a single scread of proof more then religious folk that their ideas are correct. They have bits and pieces of how things work, but not one bit about how it works. Yet they then fill in the blanks with personal, unprovable ideas (prove the big bang theory) and you all just roll over yourselves to say how rational and logical it is. You are all doing the same thing religious folks do, having faith that your ideas are right.
paul: your god is not a masochist.....your god is a sadist
how can an omniscient god be disappointed?
PPLRWRD – why not try finishing grade school – then go on to high school – then attend some college classes. learn something about science and the scientific method – and stop obsessing over the big bang.
there's a lot of science in between "how" and "why" – and you could devote your time and energy to understanding the truth of the underpinnings of this great world we live in – instead of just blindly following a bronze-aged construct that has never once stood up against science.
religion always bends to science – never ever the other way around.
religion is predicate on ignorance
science = knowledge.
deep down inside your mind – you know there aren't any gods. stop lying to yourself – stop pretending to believe.
look at the entire history of religion and ask yourself – what has it ever done for mankind?
will religion solve world hunger?
can religion ever cure cancer??
will religion devise newer and better drugs to combat other types of diseases and sicknesses?
i'll just answer for you – because you're really confused: NO! religion can't do anything to better mankind – it is the true force of darkness on this planet – and science is our only light.
ppl: scientists are able to change their hypothesis when different information becomes available. are the religious willing to do so?
@PPLRWRD: Nothing in the world is determined by what you heart tells you. The Big Bang theory is based on the observed fact that the universe is expanding. If it's expanding it must be expanding from some starting point. Your belief in God is not based on any observable fact.
It's true there are many questions we can't answer, but that's no reason to claim some all powerful being is the answer. In fact, if you study history there are countless examples of people and religions that attribute natural phenomena to supernatural forces, beliefs science later debunked. People used to believe disease was caused by evil spirits. The ancient Greeks believed solar eclipses were caused by angry gods.
Over the centuries science has debunked supernatural explanations time and time again, while folks of your thinking have never once been able to show that God was responsible for anything. I'm not saying science has all the answers, or that it ever will, but it has a lot of answers supported by fact and observation, and all you have are speculations that on a fairly regular basis are debunked.
Besides, your "answer" ("God did it") just creates a whole wealth of other questions you can't answer. What created God? If you believe God has always existed, then logically he existed an eternity into the past, but suddenly one day decided to create the entire universe out of nothing. What changed? Did an eternity of boredom get to him? There are endless questions for which there are no answers. I won't try to list them because I'm sure you'll have more unsupported theories to explain anything I bring up. In this sense religion is just a big conspiracy theory.
If I'm going to have unanswered questions either way, I prefer the ones that don't have all the negative side effects of religion.
@PPLRWRD: "You are all doing the same thing religious folks do, having faith that your ideas are right"
Rubbish. Scientific theories are based on observable facts and must be consistent with known facts and laws of nature. If a theory isn't consistent with accepted facts and laws it's rejected. Religious theories don't have to be consistent with anything. You folks just speculate anything you feel like speculating, with no proof whatsoever. If there is an inconsistency in your theory you simply explain it away with another unsupported theory.
Furthermore, when scientists have competing theories they do research to determine which, if any, is the correct one. Scientists don't treat colleagues who embrace different explanations as if they are morally and mentally inferior, which is what believers do. Galileo was excommunicated by the Catholic church for saying the earth revolves around the sun instead of the other way around. That's how religion works: lots of bogus explanations and persecution of people who don't agree with them.
@the AnViL: Actually, religion has done a lot of good. By postulating the existence of an omniscient god, rewards for good deeds and punishment for bad ones, religion has motivated people to do a lot of good and forego doing may bad things because "god will know."
"we are rejecting all His law and commandments while expecting Him to intervene" ???? Speak for yourself, Paul! I have NEVER "expected" an imaginary being to come and "magically" fix my pathetic life and solve my personal problems! This is clearly an affliction that ONLY occurs to the devoutly delusional folks such as yourself!...
skytag – maybe you can enumerate all the wonderful things religion has done for humanity....
for every one thing you name – science has trumped it one thousand fold.
religion impoverishes all of humanity and retards our progress.
tolerance of religious idiocy has to end – the sooner the better.
cha cha cha
to "the AnVil", you told "PPLRWRD" to mature, yet, you yourself, are acting as immature as you are telling "PPLRWRD" to be. How about you argue like an adult and not resort to attacks on his intelligence or character. To address what you actually said, only a small and extremists sect of Christians argue for the invalidity of science. In fact, I would argue that when "PPLRWRD" argues against "science", he or she is arguing against the evolution part of science. Evolution is still not understood and a large amount of gaps exist in the "science" behind it. Which is why, there is extreme disagreement between scientist on evolution and its makeup. The rest of science is not argued against by the everyday Christian and, in fact, is strongly supported and defended. There, right or wrong, is a response to someone without resorting to an ad hominem fallacy.
Dnal – you dimwitted chunk of goat sputum:
i admonished PPLRWRD to evolve past the delusional bronze-aged construct that has retarded humanity for far too long. don't paraphrase my words unless you know what you're doing – you clearly do not.
as for this "small" and "extremist" sect of xianity that refutes science, scoffs at the theory of evolution – and clings to some supposed idiotic theological cant on an antecedent of the big bang – it has certainly been large enough to impede progress and vocal enough to inject noise into the system – so much so – it has done nothing but cost money and cause harm.
propagating ignorance isn't cool or smart – but it's been a tried and true pastime of xian retards – well... since as far back as we care to look.
in relation to these "gaps" in the theory of evolution – what gaps are you referring to specifically – and do these gaps negate any of the facts upon which this theory is constructed? unless you managed to make it past high school biology it's very highly doubtful you could have anything to say on the matter that's insightful or useful – or above the scorn it most assuredly deserves.
i am actually far less concerned with any factions of delusional religious dimwits that refute science – than i am the "small" "extremist" faction of xians who seek to nullify equality for their fellow americans based on their flawed, retarded, ignorant theological ideals.
as for ad-hominem – look princess – when someone pops up and posits garbage, like PPLRWRD did – they deserve every ounce of deni gration they get.
and if you have a problem with it – tough luck, cupcake
you better get used to it.
cha cha cha