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 A woman receives a hug as she leaves a morning service at Trinity Episcopal Church not far from the Sandy Hook School December 16, 2012 in Newtown, Connecticut
December 16th, 2012
09:18 PM ET
God will 'wrestle the light from darkness,' pastor tells heartbroken congregationBy Eric Marrapodi and Kate Bolduan, CNN Newtown, Connecticut (CNN)– The bulletins were printed on Thursday for the third Sunday of Advent for Trinity Episcopal Church in Newtown. There was no mention of Friday in the pages' long order for worship. By Sunday morning, the church was hosting its fourth service since the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary, and the sanctuary had been open for 72 straight hours keeping vigil. A half-empty pallet of tissue boxes greeted church members as they arrived in the front hallway. As the second of the morning's two worship services got underway, people were already quietly weeping in their seats. Young children sat and quietly played or colored next to their parents, unaware of the tragedy around them or that their friend Benjamin Wheeler, a 6-year-old who attended Trinity with his family, was not there. Wheeler was among the 26 people killed at Sandy Hook on Friday when a gunman burst into his elementary school. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter Pastor Kathleen Adams-Sheperd recounted to the church how she spent Friday at the fire station, waiting with the parents of elementary school children to find out if their child had made it out safely or was among those who did not. "Friday in some part has changed our lives forever," she said in her sermon as she stood in the middle of the congregation, eschewing the pulpit for proximity to her members. Speaking to a crowd still raw and still suffering, she told them of the sermon she had prepared and how it was long gone, asking them to be patient with her as she preached with no notes. On this day, she said, it was "important to be where we are," to be "present with people." She encouraged them to hug one another. "No, really, get up and hug someone," she said. Old and young, visitors and members, embraced tearfully. "Families of our lovely innocent children need our prayers," she said. "Families who survived need our prayers." "I want you to know talking to the ones who have lost, the one spot of joy is that your children are not lost." Adult men from the church were posted at the doors this week, she said, so the children in the service and Sunday schools would know this was a safe place for them. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories Dressed in purple vestments and wearing a small stud nose ring, Adams-Sheperd walked the church through pieces of the planned Advent service, when Christians light four candles in the four weeks leading up to Christmas to prepare to celebrate the birth of Jesus. "I believe faith will save us," she said. "To loose this faith is to let the darkness win." "Was God absent from our world?" she asked, a burning question on the minds of many in this heartbroken town. "Indeed not." "Have we been shaken? Yes. Have we seen hope? Yes, yes, yes." She pointed to the hero teachers who shielded children, administrators from the school who rushed toward the shooter, and the first-responders as evidence of that hope. "So many signs of hope and light in the darkness that seems to envelope us; that's what Advent is," she said. She said she believed the horrific acts were not the will of God. "Where was God? Surrounding all the children. The 430 that made it out, and the 20 that did not." God, she said, "was with them, is with them, and will be with them always. "God will find a way to bring comfort and hope and light. He will wrestle it from the darkness." In the coming days the church will see multiple funerals, including for little Benjamin Wheeler on Thursday and for another classmate, 6-year-old Madeleine Hsu, on Friday. Adams-Sheperd told the church local funeral directors had donated costs of the funeral to the families. Cameras were not permitted to film the worship service but the church welcomed reporters to come and worship. Adams-Shepard explained to the crowd she would not go on camera and talk to reporters because she had given her word to the victim's families, and that what happened in the school is "owned by the parents." She told the congregation if anyone was holding any enmity in their heart it was time to let it go. "I'm done. I love you. Pray, everyone," she said. And with that she turned to prayer and recited the name of each victim. CNN's Jeremy Moorhead contributed to this report. |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son AND THE REST OF YOU MORONS
he way I see it, the United States is mourning the loss of these dead children, the Christian Groups are in mourning and praying to their God for a shed of light from the pain and suffering. Its none of your business what "they believe" .....You are a demon for undermining anyone's beliefs at this crucial time. Your a sick and demented individual that needs some serious medication. That goes for the rest of you sick ghetto bangers. You are worse than the trigger man himself you sick bastar d. He made his mark in the world and you are making yours. You will pay for this, just go out and yell your thoughts in public and see how long you last you cowards.
Bite me. If you are such a liar as your post here show, you aren't fit to judge anyone else. Read my posts, and realize what a dishonest twerp you are. Or don't. Everyone else will anyway.
YOU ARE WORSE THAN THE TRIGGER MAN, YOU SICK BASTARD!!!!!!!
YEAH!!!!
Gosh I love a good hissy fit!
No kidding, Oh, Dear. I'm waiting for INny the Ninny to wave his hankie and flounce off in his high heels.
@IGWT
I don't care if it takes more drugs or less drugs, but you need to get your brain back on an even keel and soon.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son...your into kids huh, you sicko. Why don't you post some information about your experiences with children. Come on Tom, Tom, the Piper Son, come out of the closet and let it be known...tell us about those kids you see? You fit the profile. Give us something you coward, tell us how you like children suffering? Come on tell us, we will forgive you, don't you worry about a thing Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son follows in his father's footsteps, a child molesting pervert. That's right, Tom, Tom the Piper's Son leads those kids into dark places. What's the story Tom, Tom?
In_GOD_WE_TRUST:
Go sod-o-mize yourself, punk
And how would you know about other evil acts God has prevented? Even if evil acts didn't happen it wouldn't change your heart regarding the existence of God, you'd find something else to pick on.
I am sincere when I state this: In some manner he then should indicate to humanity the acts he has prevented. That seems logical to me.
rightforlife,
An omniscient "God" would know *precisely* what proof is acceptable to each and every one of us individually.
An omnipotent "God" would be able to provide it.
An all-loving "God" would do so.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
"no pity for those who lost loved ones" wow. just wow. anything i could say you would throw back in my face and try to turn it against me. but i honestly can't believe someone would be that hard as to not care about those who lost loved ones in this tragedy or any other. i hope you never have to go through the same thing
You can't read, can you? Go back and try again, Mark. Move your lips if you have to.
I expect a retraction.
Matthew, you did indeed totally pervert Tom Tom's words. He did not say what you just put in quotation marks, and anyone who goes down a quarter page will see that.
You misrepresented her, and you slandered her. You bore false witness.
Why do Christians think they are the repositories of morality when they happily break Biblical morality at the drop of a hat?
I'll bet Matthew will now disappear without a single word. He won't bother to admit his error or his dishonesty.
Let's see – Tom said: " I have all the sympathy in the world for the people who have lost loved ones."
Gee – where did you get the words you've attributed to Tom, Matty? Our of your ass maybe?? Hmm???
Out of
Yup. That's what they do. Fling out some wild and whirling nonsense with a side of hatred, and vanish when they are called on it. Very consistent Christian pattern.
And on the eighth day, the Lord said "Let thee be intellectually dishonest douchebags in my holy glory and honor."
Notice all that self-righeous anger he displayed, mama k. And yet he can't seem to manage to retract his own statements. How strong! How righteous! How admirable! How typical!
Yup. Crickets chirping from the godly Christian. Didn't your god say something about 'bearing false witness?'
I guess that only applies to other people, right?
And you wonder why people like me have no time for you and your "religion."
What is it about militant atheists that they can't understand a simple concept like free choice?
After life (which is his greatest gift), God gave us freedom of choice. Our entire relationship (individually and collectively) is based on people living with the consequences of their actions. I suspect that the rub of this belief, is that it breaks down if you only believe you are impacted by your individual decisions. Sorry, we are part of a community and our failure to care for others results in terrible consequences.
I suppose the alternative is that we are a cosmic accident that resulted from an accidental combination of primordial ooze... that evolved over a billion years into sentient life. If that's the case then the only natural law in existence is Darwinism which asserts only the strong pass on their genetics. Someone please tell me where the existence of "natural rights" can be scientifically explained in nature. Peace.
Allow me to repost something that helps clarify the problem of "free will" (not "free choice")
Where was those children's free will, or their parents? Did only the shooter have free will? He was insane, so how could even he have free will?
And if god will not act in bad situations due to free will, then he cannot act in good ones either. That means there are no miracles because they violate free will. No god helping you. No "prayer works", because all of those would prevent free will. You can't have it both ways. Either there is free will, in which case god does absolutely nothing on Earth (including the good he is regularly credited with), or there isn't free will and god acts, but he has chosen not to in horrible situations like this.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
Greetings Marketconverge,
I understand your comments and question posed. I wish we could respectfully have a discussion about this in the future on some board.
Yes the evidence strongly suggests we humans are one of probably billions of "Cosmic Accidents", just like the trillions of stars, black holes and swirling galaxies, we can already see. No evidence yet of any fantasy god doing anything to interfere with the so far discovered laws of Physics over the 13 or so Billion years since the bang.
a) Not everyone agrees with your list of choices you'd label as bad ones.
b) God isn't exactly just sitting back and judging how people behave all by themselves without any coaxing on his part, is he? You imagine that he's playing favorites and actually helping some people believe in him by sending them "signs" or doing little miracles for them. How's that fair then?
That's like asking two people to believe that an invention exists while only demonstrating it to one.
We do not have free choice or free will.
We have the illusion of choice.
You can only "make a choice" using things like your brain cells, which only work in certain ways at certain times under certain conditions.
And you can only base a choice on what you have by way of information or input, which are also quite limited in scope.
And then, you only have limited mental "tools" to process and evaluate your "choices" to come to a decision.
If you can avoid any sort of bias or distortion in all of this, you would then be limited by how good your information was to begin with...because bad information tends to give bad results.
To be rational, one must be able to think rationally. If you've been indoctrinated into thinking irrationally, you are likely to have extremely bad information in a brain that has been trained to think irrationally about real-world things so that you are an easy person to manipulate towards the goals of those who indoctrinated you – and their goals are also likely to be quite irrational.
Logic, reason, ethics, knowledge based on true facts and not fantasy are things that separate the rational from the irrational.
Religion is a type of delusional belief-system. It has always been geared towards the greedy and lustful goals of those who feed off of the suffering of ignorant people.
Stop the ignorant fantasy-land crap and join the rest of us in trying to fix real-world problems with real-world solutions.
Hey Rational Humanist, sounds like you are trying to come across as a decision scientist. The critical flaw in your thinking revolves around "perfect information". Rational decisions are made everyday without access to timely or complete data, and yet good decisions are still made. Have you ever heard of a null hypothesis? It's a tool that scientist use to unearth data and support theories in the absence of necessary information. Are you implying that these are not rational people who are not making good decisions because they don't have access to perfect information.
Secondly, I'm not a Christian, I follow an eastern philosophy. Does my believing we are not a cosmic mistake make me incapable of making sound decisions? I'm not sure where your anger or angst comes from, but perhaps a little self reflection might benefit you?
Why did you slander Rational Humanist by calling him angry? His responses are just statement, pretty matter of fact.
#Plantaganet
This post rsponds both to you and the subject pastor of the article above. It stated:
She said she believed the horrific acts were not the will of God.
"Where was God? Surrounding all the children. The 430 that made it out, and the 20 that did not."
God, she said, "was with them, is with them, and will be with them always.
"God will find a way to bring comfort and hope and light. He will wrestle it from the darkness."
God has permitted Satan to rule the world for a period of time, since he has challenged God, saying he, Satan, has a better way of ruling the world, and that God is a liar. the truth of this is contained in the words of 1 John 5:19, which speaks of Satan as "the wicked one." Jesus personally referred to Satan as "the ruler of this world."
Hence God was no around those children, who have not been carried off to heaven, having been "called home by God," or Jesus.
The Bible's explanation is that these children are now dead, awaiting a future resurrection to human life on a paradise earth of God's making. (Revelation 21:3, 4) Jesus' resurrecting Lazarus was a fine illustration of how He will do this in the new world. That is such a comforting thought. It keeps me going!
Religion is like anything else:
1. It must have the ring of truth
2. It must sound like common sense
3. It must match what I always felt in my heart mut be right
4. They must never ever pass a collection plate or ask me for money.
What do you know; I found the right one. (John 17:3)
So, God can wrestle the light from darkness, but could not stop a killer? Yeah, sure sounds like a "loving father." More like a nonexisistant piece of stupidity that these people need to fall on, I hope some of them will come out from church and realize: God is fake, life sucks and will only end in your death, the end.
Find a publisher. BTW, it'd make a cutesy card.
Agenda 21=December21, 2012...get it
CUE THE SPOOKY MUSIC!!! BEGIN THE CREEPY END_TIMES LIGHT SHOW!!!
It's Armagidion Time! And the Froot Loops want it so badly, too!
But I do love a good end-of-the-world party. Been to quite a few.
Yes – don't remind me that even though I'm an atheist, I do have a little shopping to do on that day. Thanks for the reminder.
this is absolutely disgusting. posts calling people stupid and christians senseless and attacking them for their beliefs when people are reeling from these events is as low as it gets. even if you don't personally believe in God why would you attack people who are turning to Him for answers and comfort when they can't find it anywhere else? would you have them turn to logic and reason, when neither logic nor reason had anything to do with this? would you have them turn to their own emotions? i can guarantee you those would lead them to darker places than anything they could get from religion, especially a religion that preaches that our loving and caring God has a reason for everything in His great and unfathomable plan. that's a lot easier to accept and assumes far less than atheistic ways of looking at something like this is
Because they are attempting to blame these events on this country's secular foundation. Because they are pretending that this occurred because of a lack of faith. Because they're demanding that those who don't see religion as a cure-all shut up and go along to get along.
Sorry. No sale. I have all the sympathy in the world for the people who have lost loved ones. I have none for the zealots who post their swill here and are using this an opportunity to spew their venom at those who don't follow their particular brand of belief.
And quite frankly, you aren't the thread nanny. You don't get to scold anyone for expressing opinions, regardless of your dislike. We have the freedom in this country to speak as we choose, regardless of your feelings about what is said. If you don't like it, you have the freedom to leave this blog and go elsewhere.
You must not have read the other articles, where Christians said this happened because atheists threw god oout of school. Let's face it: you loving Christians started this with that nasty slander, one that was repeated hundreds of times by as many Christian posters.
If Christians have the nerve to blame atheists for what an insane Catholic (who wen't to Catholic) school did, then you better believe you are going to get it right back at you.
It's called "blowback", and your side deserves it in a big way for "bearing false witness" like that.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son...The way I see it, the United States is mourning the loss of these dead children, the Christian Groups are in mourning and praying to their God for a shed of light from the pain and suffering. Its none of your business what "they believe" .....You are a demon for undermining anyone's beliefs at this crucial time. Your a sick and demented individual that needs some serious medication. That goes for the rest of you sick ghetto bangers. You are worse than the trigger man himself you sick bastar d. He made his mark in the world and you are making yours. You will pay for this, just go out and yell your thoughts in public and see how long you last you cowards.
"would you have them turn to their own emotions?" – But they are. That's what god is. An internal mechanism for survival in a dangerous world, where logic alone would limit our actions.
"You are worse than the trigger man himself you sick bastar d."
That's just precious. He probably believes that, too!
Look, troll. You can misrepresent me all you wish. But if you believe in a god that's all-seeing, then he knows what you just did. You might want to give that some thought.
"Sorry. No sale. I have all the sympathy in the world for the people who have lost loved ones. I have none for the zealots who post their swill here and are using this an opportunity to spew their venom at those who don't follow their particular brand of belief."
"And quite frankly, you aren't the thread nanny. You don't get to scold anyone for expressing opinions, regardless of your dislike. We have the freedom in this country to speak as we choose, regardless of your feelings about what is said. If you don't like it, you have the freedom to leave this blog and go elsewhere."
Pot meet Kettle.
The irony is getting so thick in here that I'm going to go outside to shovel some snow. brb
As an atheist, I would like to tell the angry anti-religionists posting here to please step away from your computers. Whatever disagreements we have over religion or philisophy, THIS IS NOT THE TIME. These families, this community, this nation, are grieving and that grief deserves your respect. If some turn to their faith for comfort, let them. You can argue with them later.
For myself, I extend my sympathy to Newtown and wish you peace and strength – whatever the source – in the days ahead.
thank you for being reasonable and caring about this, i'm a devout lutheran but i must thank you for not being hateful
Very well stated. It's nice to see there are still a few people out there capable of civility.
Let me just point out that no one is bothering those people by posting comments here. And they will struggle for years to reconcile their schizophrenic delusions with the real world around them just as they are doing now.
Face it, bub. You may be free to wallow like a drunk pig in your comforting brand of schizophrenic madness in this country, but it removes your ability to deal with real-world problems in a rational way.
This whole mess could be the direct fault of the pharmaceutical companies who turn out toxic crap by the ton.
Or it could be caused by religion, since we have billions of cases we can point to where the murderers did it for religious reasons.
Or maybe this guy's particular mix of mental disorders made it untreatable – or maybe he had a bad reaction to the residual pharmaceutical poisons in his brain – or had a withdrawal reaction.
Regardless of how this began and how it happened, the fact remains that this tragedy was caused by the irrational mental state of the shooter and by easy access to a weapon when he irrationally wanted one.
This is a real-world problem and it REQUIRES a real world solution, not some "oh, we just need to pray harder" crap.
Thank you. Some of the respnses I have seen here are sick, sick, sick. There is a time for everything and, regarding the defamation of religion, this is definitely not the time.
Then why was this the time for Christians to blame atheists for the tragedy by "kicking god out of school"? There are about 100 pages of responses here with that statement multiple times on each of them. Huckabee said it to the nation. It's on FOX and it's on Limbaugh. You Christians have been defaming us for the actions of an insane catholic who actually did go to religious school.
Now is not the time? Sorry, but if we are getting slandered like that, then you damn well better believe that we are going to tell you what hate-filled, narrow-minded lying sleazeballs you are!
Thank goodness God had no part in this. The kid who was born with autism and suffered a mental illness is not his problem. If it was, I'm sure God would have stepped up and intervened. Because God is loving and would not allow a child to be born with mental deficiencies such that he would mercilessly slaughter a pack of small children if it was God's call. So people should really stop blaming him. It's not like God is all powerful, people.
James-I can make a comment here without offending those I describe as nobody knows where I live on this board. I had to take care of a very small group of children whose mothers had taken drugs. One child kept hitting his head anywhere he could find a spot on his wheelchair. Another child could not stop crying in anguish. Yet another child crawled on the floor like a dog. These children will suffer their entire lives. No god would allow that.
The examples I gave are the ones I could describe on this board. When you come face to face with children affected for life by mother's drug use-everything regarding religion becomes all too clear.
BOOTY FUNK...THE NAME SAYS IT ALL, WHAT A DISGUSTING EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING
The truth must really bother you to have to make excuses in caps. My goodness.
Retract your judgment
your name is much more disgusting. and it's obvious you have no funk in your life...
Whatever makes these folks feel better...
The words of religion never sound more hollow than when they try to make sense of the senseless using their senseless ideas.
May God sit on your pillow tonight and keep you safe and warm.
Good Night All Christian Friends and good luck to the rest of you.
God sits on their pillow? God has his ass on Christian's heads as they sleep? Well that explaind the shitty ideas they have when they awake.
I'll pass on the deific tea bagging if that's ok with you.
Maybe you'll hit your head on the bedpost tonight and wake up a sane person. After all you could only get better.
Maybe that's why my pillow is always too god-damn hot.
It's difficult in these situations to accept the fact that our prayers are for naught, that there is no one listening, that there is no omnipotent being working on addressing our pleas. The principle of Occams' Razor teaches us that the solution that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected. As painful as this will be to many people, the truth is that there is no god. To me this realization is infinitely preferable to a universe governed by a petulant, unfeeling being, where there is no free will and everything is preordained in order to punish his imperfect creations. We need to take responsibility for our own actions, and realize that morality is only to be found within us, if it is to exist at all. Let us never forget the monster that committed this crime, and let us revile him and his kind forever. But make no mistake, this was a simple case of cause and effect, there is no magic or mystery or divinity to be found.
To ThinkDefyUnite:
Regarding-–"morality is only to be found within us"-–How very true-excellent point!
Additional comment: Your statement started in a manner that showed sincere caring for those who are religious. I commend the flow of your message that presented facts to illustrate your point while not hesitating to show flaws in religious thinking.
How can this heinous act not be the will of God? God created mankind and is all-knowing, so God cannot claim ignorance. God cannot say he didn't know this would be part of his mysterious plan that he intentionally set in motion. Everything is part of the plan of an all-powerful, all-knowing being. Note that I left out perfect in my description of God, since a perfect being would not have allowed this tragedy to be a part of his plan.
James-Excellent point. It simply amazes me how people still believe the church's nonsense.
Pretty much related to what I asked of another poster. What is the point of this "exercise?" Why create a universe, give all free reign, but threaten eternal damnation if the rules are broken or if one doesn't acknowledge the existence of some invisible being who NEVER intervenes, never makes its presence known and allows atrocity after atrocity to occur unchecked?
Sorry–run-on sentence. But why should I bother to worship some creature who thinks this is just some game created for its amusement and pleasure? if that isn't what this is, then what is it? Surely there is a purpose. If it's only to create "glory" for the creator, then, sorry, I'm not interested in praising a creature that can't be bothered to stop tragedies like this one.
GOD IS NOT THE RULER OF THIS WORLD. Sorry for shouting, but this statement runs counter to everything you likely have heard, some in church, or, others, in discussions with atheist friends. However, it agrees with 1 John 5:19 which, in the King James Version reads, “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” To render this into modern English, a Greek-English interlinear translation renders the verse as, “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in [the power of] the wicked one.” That One is, of course, Satan. This was true in John’s day, just as it is today. Even Jesus acknowledged that fact. He referred to Satan as "the ruler of this world."
Bootyfunk
it would have been nice if your omnipotent god could have taken time out of his busy schedule to snap his fingers and make the children bullet proof or just make the shooter fall over in a coma. you would think a loving and compassionate god would have saved innocent children. he is supposed to be omniscient, so he knew it was going to happen.
the simple answer is there is no such thing as god. see how well that fits into this tragedy?
FIRST OF ALL...YOU DON'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION, THERE WERE 28 VICTIMS OUT OF SEVERAL HUNDRED, WHO DO YOU THINK WON GOD OR THE DEVIL?
Since neither of those exist, you moron, the question is both asinine and moot. Next.
In_GOD_WE_TRUST: "It would have been nice if your omnipotent God could have saved these school children"
God: "I'm not allowed in schools."
I would say the devil won, assuming either exist. He got the lives of 20 small children and all-powerful god wasn't able to stop him.
lol
So 28 dead people is a victory for your deity? What the fvck kind of twisted, ass backwards, demented, useless, brain cell-killing, fingernails down a chalkboard, illogic is that? Do you people read your posts before you hit the post button or do you just gleefully bang away on your keyboard like so many dull witted bag of bricks?
Hmm. And the other kids have to go back to school missing the ones that didn't make it. All part of your God's little board game. Welcome to Gullible's Travels.
ATXmaxQ
"God: "I'm not allowed in schools."
So [Mr. Huckabee], what leads to all the violence in churches? Must be God isn't there either right?? In the past 11 years there have been 18 shootings in churches in the U.S. .(google it.) 55 dead...35 injured.....you sir are a fool!
(Copied from @Tduimstra on the Huckabee article - thanks, T)
@Info:
Why is there violence anywhere? As a Christian I would tell you its because we live in a fallen & sinful world, but I wouldn't expect you to understand or embrace any of that. I'm not postulating that having God play a central role in one's life is a guarantee that one will never encounter harm, but what I am saying is that telling him he has no place in our lives invites evil in. If you would like to play the statistics game I would invite you to look up how many mass shootings of this nature we had in the first six decades of the twentieth century when we had hundreds of thousands of young men well versed in the uses of various kinds of weaponry scarred by war roaming the country vs. how many we've had since. I would then invite you to to do a little research on how society has changed since then specifically in this context. You can call it coincidence, I'll call it something else.
ATXmaxQ,
You really need to do a better study on cause and effect - you can't just jump on your pet issue and call it a day.
- It could just as well be the proliferation of violent movies, tv and video games
- It could be the addition of antibiotics into the meat supply
- It could be a high sugar diet
- It could be ozone depletion
- It could be TONS of other things, or a combination thereof.
Get off of your bandwagon of unproved claims.
What???
"Where was God? Surrounding all the children."
Surrounding the children as they were being murdered? What a god watching children go through untold horror and death. My goodness if you are surrounding them-protect them god!,,
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
i agree, god is evil. the way he drowned all those innocents in his great flood - babies, the elderly, physically disabled, mentally challenged, the infirm... what a disgusting monster.
Bootyfunk, you are right there are no dieties stop using that tragedy to beat some poor Christian over the head. These people have been raised from day 1 to think the earth is flat and they won't take up for themselves. Do you kick puppies on your day off too?
what you call kicking puppies i call encouraging people to think for themselves. they are in a cult - the message may not get through to all, but for the ones on the fence, questioning religion is a very good thing. most atheists were religious at one point... so stop overreacting. being in a cult is not healthy.
Oh, I had heard that members of the Westboro Baptist Church sometimes posted on here.
Stop using the tragedy of the Noah's Ark flood? Why is a fictional event a tragedy? Is it a real tragedy when Anna Karenina dies, or when Gilligan killed everyone on the isle with a chainsaw the professor made out of bamboo and coconuts?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- David Hume, echoing the logical formulation that we have dubbed the "Epicurean Riddle"
God gave us free will to choose love or hate, good or evil. He refuses to control us as that would make us no different than robots. It wouldn't be love it if was forced...which unfortnately means that people must have the ability to hate as well. I firmly believe Jesus was and is weeping right alongside us. God didn't choose this...a sick human being used his free will to choose it...and broke God's heart along with all of ours.
This "riddle" 1) is childish, and 2) has been swatted away like a bothersome fly many, many times. I encourage you to dig deeper.
I notice you can't refute the reasoning, Twisted.
@twisty
and how has it been refuted? i have looked deeper and found absolutely no refutation. pls show cut and paste what you're talking about.
Staci, by their very nature, an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect being can accomplish anything he wants in any fashion he wants. Yet God chose to accomplish his mysterious goal with untold pain and suffering. How do you classify a being who wants other beings to unnecessarily suffer such horror? I call him evil.
Stacy, where was those children's free will, or their parents? Did only the shooter have free will? He was insane, so how could even he have free will?
And if god will not act in bad situations due to free will, then he cannot act in good ones either. That means there are no miracles because they violate free will. No god helping you. No "prayer works", because all of those would prevent free will. You can't have it both ways. Either there is free will, in which case god does absolutely nothing on Earth (including the good he is regularly credited with), or there isn't free will and god acts, but he has chosen not to in horrible situations like this.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
This is why atheists don't believe – because too many major concepts of god like this are impossible either way.
When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.
it would have been nice if your omnipotent god could have taken time out of his busy schedule to snap his fingers and make the children bullet proof or just make the shooter fall over in a coma. you would think a loving and compassionate god would have saved innocent children. he is supposed to be omniscient, so he knew it was going to happen.
the simple answer is there is no such thing as god. see how well that fits into this tragedy?
"Saves"? Don't you mean "placates"?