December 16th, 2012
09:56 AM ET
Huckabee: Lack of religion in classroom leads to violence in schools
(CNN) - Responding to the deadly mass shooting Friday in Newtown, Connecticut, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee said new laws regulating guns won't deter such shootings, linking a lack of religious discussion in the classroom to increased violence in schools.
"We ask why there's violence in our school but we've systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News. "Should we be so surprised that schools have become such a place of carnage? Because we've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability."
"That we're not just gonna have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that," he said.
"People are going to want to pass new laws," Huckabee continued. "This is a heart issue ... laws don't change this kind of thing."FULL STORY
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
If you think the recent shooting was caused by lack of religion in schools you are ignoring the real issues. The shooter was using his mother's legally owned guns, one of which was a semi-automatic assault rifle. Tell me why a mother needs a military grade weapon or let's her son have access to it? And tell me why she didn't realize her son was deranged in the first place? Poor mental health care, poor gun control and poor parenting are the REAL issues, and they shouldn't be ignored by placing the blame on lack of religion in schools.
Also I find it offensive, as a non religious person, that people are implying that without religion I am prone to violence.
These are bat shit crazy Christians who always appeal to their invisible gods instead of reality so it's expected.
yeah – then you get the childish response "ban all gunz!!!"
instead of looking at the actual culprit: mental illness
Why do fundiot nutters hate the constîtution?
use g_od as a defense for a crime gommitted and see what happens !
With a frothing at the mouth Talibangelical like Huckabee, is it any wonder why the GOP lost the election and will continue to do so?
I got a simple question for U religious ppl. For those who say this happened because we took god out of our school. Well let me ask You. Dont U think that every parent that dropped off his or her child prayed for them to have a safe day and to return home safely later that day? Im sure they did So did god not answer their prays because he was so mad about taking prayers of public schools? U cant have it both ways.
Yes Mike Huckabee, we should be scaring our children into believing that the ONLY reason they should be good is so they don't burn for all eternity in hellfire, NOT because it's the right thing to do regardless.
Hear hear. An entrenched politician talking about responsibility, accountability and morality. Just the fact that he was not struck down by lightning on the spot proves that there is no God.
In this Age, there is only One Religion,
which has substantial and tangible Evidence,
that may prevent all kinds of violence, bloodshed, animosity;
and may thus establish on earth absolute Peace, love and serenity
in/for all humanity.
UNIVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES
The 2nd amendment applies to a social, political, and geographical structure that existed in this part of the world hundreds of years ago. The 2nd Amendment begins with the idea of a "well-regulated" militia, these term means organized and trained. It is ridiculous to apply this to our present social, political and geographical structure. It simply does not apply. Second Amendment must be amended for the progress of our race, and specifically the progress of the United States. There is no basic brainwashing principle of "faith hope and love" involved in moving society forward. In each of us is the desire to live peacefully; this is distorted by religion to be the ideals chosen by each group of "faithful." Faithful not to the betterment of mankind, but faithful to what groups of men have chosen. Religion is effective in controlling the masses, however today's social political and geographical settings do not fit with religious division. No god is worthy of us causing the world to be uproarious. There was nothing, then there was the Universe. No thought, word, action – spiritual or mundane exists without time and place in the workings of the universe. Religion had it's time and it's place. Get over it, for the sake of all, just work on getting over it.
I'll say it again, if you want religion in schools, send your kids to a religious school. There should be no religion in public school. Besides WHOSE religion are you going to teach? Islam, the religion of peace? Christianity? Jewish? Baptist? Catholicism? Buddhism? Hinduism? Which one? Religion belongs at home and church and in religious schools only. It would not have prevented this tragedy anyway. The shooter was a disturbed young man. All the religion in the world would not have stopped him from doing what he did. He had mental issues. You can see it in the photos of him. It is very obvious. Others knew about it, but had no way of knowing he'd do this. Sad thing is that his mom had all these guns in the house with a disturbed teen though.
He also went to religious school. Middle school at a Catholic school.
Finish the statement ... he went to a Catholic school, learned the basics of God's truth, never searching further, then had all the nonsense of life thrown at him from every avenue in life to cause him to be a total mess, confused, recluse, alone, no one to turn to or talk his fears out. Out of his pain and confusion, became lost in his obsessive thoughts to take his pain and confusion out on others as well as himself.
Sherri, there is only one truth and that is Jesus' truth. You can continue with the confusion that all other religions are the way because you seemed to be good at being part of the problem and not the solution.
Your tale is phony. The reality is that he always had mental problems. You just lied through your teeth inventing your own fantasy version so that you could pretend your bizarre ideas are correct.
Why do Christians lie so much? I thought that violated the 9th Commandment.
Since you've obviously refused to contemplate on the following famous quotation, and have the audacity to accuse Sherri of being part of the problem, then let me repeat it for you:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
– Stephen Roberts
And guess what, how do you know? Do you know this young man personally or was it reported as to his mental condition being unstable throughout his life? I believe you own the lying and inventing your own reasoning to post.
To Hello, I could care less what man's post you want to use. Being an atheist, you too are part of the problems in life, never to be the solution.
Yes, because anyone that doesn't agree with your unsubstantiated opinions of religion is part of the problem.
That is called INTOLERANCE in case you didn't know.
Hitler thought the Jews were part of the problem. That was called the Holocaust.
@ ? ... so in a PUBLC school, you'd have Muslim kids, Jewish kids, children from Atheist or agnostic homes pray to YOUR "god"? You're ok with suspending their rights to practice their faith, so you can convert them to yours?? Seek help, and NEVER, EVER, think of becoming a teacher.
"Sherri, there is only one truth and that is Jesus' truth. You can continue with the confusion that all other religions are the way because you seemed to be good at being part of the problem and not the solution."
LOL prove it.
?: "there is only one truth . . ."
LOL. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha . Tard.
@Topher, New covenant means god agrees not to mercilessly order the murder of women and children? Is it like a do-over for god? God 2.0... New and improved. Now with less child-slaughter. Congratulations. You bow before a great and powerful deity. It saddens me that your blind acceptance of this tyrant doesn't cause you sleepless nights and shame at the lack of humanity.
For the record, my family members and all of those people close to me claim the same thing you do about being a christian. They all followed the same script you're following. Yet, you still believe they are not christians, and you are. Astounding. Really. Typical, "christian means anyone who agrees with me" mentality.
Last I looked, God was never the problem. Mankind can be and is sometimes.
"Last I looked, God was never the problem. Mankind can be and is sometimes."
Sounds like someone is ready to commit mass murder for "religious reasons".
@?, Then I'd ask when the last time was that you read the bible. Man is supposedly god's creation made in his image. If there's a problem with man, it originated with his maker. In essence, a flawed designer creates flawed creations. But only a cowardly designer seeks to blame the creation for the flaws that could have only come from the creator.
Are we not safe anywhere? Many ask. Not even our schools are safe anymore. Inevitably God is blamed for such tragedies as in Newtown, CT. Inevitably, many try to "defend" God from questions such as, "If you exist, why did you allow this to happen?!" Many believers are responding by saying that "God" has been taken out of schools... This is the wrong approach my friends.
This answer is Theologically inaccurate. We serve an Omnipresent God. He was in that school with those terrified children.
Why then, if He was present, did He allow such a tragedy? As humans, we have free will. The assassin made the diabolical decision of committing such a horrific act.
As Christians we should, instead, mourn with the mourning (Ecclesiastes 7:4) and through our acts of love glorify God. We shouldn't try to defend God. He can defend Himself from all the questions and accusations He is receiving.
When we spread messages like, "This is what happens when you reject God...", we lower God to our level and that doesn't glorify Him. In turn, this type of message just drives people further away from Him.
Let's be wise and pray for those mourning and in extreme need for only the Comforter can comfort them. God Bless.
The killer had free wiil, but the children and teachers and families don't?
Why do only the bad people get free will?
And how does an insane person have free will?
Why does God do nothing in bad situations because of free will, but he intervenes and does miracles, which also deny free will? You can't have it both ways. If there is free will, god cannot intervene to do good either, so all claims of miracles and god helping and prayer working must be untrue. Or there is no free will and god does miracles, but then he could miricle these atrocities to end, but he doesn't. Got an explanation for that paradox?
No Jeff. Wrong. Your god is forever a no-show. I just love the loophole you pious creeps came up with... the" free will" clause. All gods get a pass whenever they're needed and never show up. I'm sure it makes god REALLY sad
when innocent children are slaughtered by psychos with guns, and although he could certainly stop the carnage at any moment, because he's so powerful and controls time and whatever else, he NEVER does. How many new borns starve TO DEATH everyday on his special planet? Face the facts son, you and billions of others have been duped by the oldest con game in existence. Religion. No god sanctioned your holy book, and every religion is essentially Peter Popoff, except the catholic church seems to appeal to a more discerning fool.
Can you point to anyone who is blaming god? Surely not the atheists as that would be as ridiculous as blaming Santa Clause. Surely not the christians. After a lifetime of making excuses for god and explaining his behavior, this is unlikely to shake their faith. So who are the ones blaming god?
The Apostles' Creed 2012: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
(references used are available upon request)
"Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven"? No, you should believe in the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. You deny the proof of His existence because you must do so in order to deny His existence. Billions of people are Jews, Christians, and Muslims because His existence is obvious. You just deny it anyway. You are telling yourself lies.
AB.. ... Billions of people are Jews, Christians, and Muslims because His existence is obvious...sic... so the more folks indoctrinated make it a forgone conclusion? We ask you for the proof of your favorite alien and you have none..no evidence of miracles, if you do please present them...we only ask for proof of Zeus that all.
No, I cannot prove God's existent in the way you ask. What I can prove to you is his existence within me through my faith. I have a book that is of God. It is a manual to my life. It helps me when I am down, when I have a question, when I need someone to listen. All of these listed, and more, are found within this book that is so commonly referred to as a man-made idea. I can't physically prove to you that God exists by giving you a physical location as to where Heaven is. Instead, I can give you the location where I know he is a constant, living, breathing, and absolute. That location is within me. I believe, I have faith, and I have God. Until you experience God, you will never see. Question my views; I will not falter from what I believe. I may, at times, fail when held to the word that is provided, but I will always remain true to my belief that God is supreme ruler.
A Simple Believer is clearly clueless since a large number of atheists are ex-delusional in regards to religion.
In other words, many of us have already been religious in our past lives and have become more SANE.
So take your "oh, you just need to believe" crap and shove it.
The Romans crucified Jesus by whose cries of lies to Pilate? He was a temple rabble-rouser because he was telling truth and wanted people not to be enslaved by traditions of man. It was those that practiced the traditions of man that wanted him out of people's lives.
Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection Con/
From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.
From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:
"Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.
Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.
Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.
The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.
Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.
The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "
"In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.
With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:
An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
"Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."
p.168. by Ted Peters:
Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "
So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.
Saraswati, if a person wants to kill another, they will figure out how to do it and it doesn't matter how they do it, just that they want to do this act as a resort to resolving their frustration or problem. The question is and always will be "what is it in our country that causes instant gratification such as this"? Why is patience not built upon but, instead, insulted and considered a nothing in our society? I could go on and on about the pros and cons of egotistical building in our country along with instant gratification, instead of building on being and staying humble and all that it produces.
God Bless you.
Read up on school attacjs in China.. There are a lot, but most only result in injuries, not death, necause they take place with knives. It is much easier, and more successful, to kill with guns.
As a Christian, I am sick of hearing this stupid tripe over and over again any time some whacko shoots inside a school. Removing mandatory Bible reading and Christian prayer did not cause this horror. Being mentally unstable and having access to high powered guns caused this. So instead of tossing out this stupid accusatory garbage, try doing what Jesus would do and genuinely love the victims and survivors by offering help beyond mindless Facebook posts. Stop with the superiority crap, no one can stand it any more. Besides, if by some unbelievable move, Congress restores prayer to school, half the day would be taken up with it, as Muslims would have probably two or three of their five daily prayers during that time, not to mention the Jewish students need time, the Catholics would have to have theirs led so they can repeat the important parts, and the Pentacostals would need hours because once they start up, might as well forget about getting anything done.
You sound like a reasonable fellow. When were you going to shake off that bad case of religious acne, though?
It's amazing to me how some of the comments here from atheists seethe so much arrogance and intolerance when talking about those who do not see eye to eye with them. Untold numbers of people in history have a faith in God and understand that without Him no amount of laws, regulations, education, enlightenment, or self discipline can overcome the sin we are born into. Huckabee is right... this is a heart issue.
We stop teaching our children to know Him and we are left to our own base nature. We may think we are "good" people because we have not killed anyone, but we simply practice our selfishness, greed, violence, intolerance in more sophisticated ways towards our neighbor.
"We" includes the speaker. If you have problems with selfishness, greed, violence, and intolerance, then you should deal with them. But since you have utterly no idea what you are talking about – your accusations against atheists are just wildly inaccurate and intolerant and arrogant – maybe you should just focus on your own major issues.
Just need to ask yourself one question punk.... Which god belongs in the classroom? If you answered the one you believe in I would like you to tell your coworkers or friends this idea... Hopefully I can find you this way and break your nose. I would sleep better at night knowing you can't breath through your nose anymore.
You're probably right, P. Weak-minded people need to believe in religion to help control their behavior. It's been that way for centuries and will continue to be that way for a long time. Smarter people with a little more on the ball don't need it, but realize others do. What we really object to is the attempts of the religies to influence our government and public schools with their mythological beliefs. Just keep your voodoo to yourselves and we'll get along just fine.
I apologize about the threat of violence P.. My right to swing fists around ends .1mm away from hitting you. I was just trying to convey my anger to those that would seek to force religion into schools. Your right to believe ends the moment you vibrate the air forcing my ears to translate that vibration. Got it?
The President talks about the killing of the beautiful children in CT but don't bat an eye at killing all the beautiful unborn children that will be killed with Obamacare.
Have you no shame? What a disgusting creature you must be.
Let me guess. You're from Texas?
Listen you fvcking idiot. A clump of cells, with no neural tube, and no brain is not a child. Potentiality is not reality. You one track simpletons should be ashamed of yourselves.
"A clump of cells, with no neural tube, and no brain is not a child." No, it's an atheist. Fetuses have brains. If fetuses did not have brains, then none of them could be aborted by having the brains sucked out of them; and the existence of that abortion procedure is common knowledge.
And atheist basher, when is the last time you were in a place that did abortions, and did that ? Never. You have never observed it. That is NEVER done any more, and you know it. Your over-emotional crap is precisely what's wrong with this argument. You actually have no stats to prove at what point fetuses are generally aborted. The neural tube and brain is not present at conception. It develops later. Have you ever once taken a Biology corse. I seriously doubt it. If so, tell us when EXACTLY conception occurs .. to the nano-seconnd.
Do you think those "children" would not be killed if not for Obamacare?
when we examine our own heart or conscience we are at risk of rendering ourself helpless. As this points one to becoming aware that he or she has regret,because of saying something wrong to someone or doing something wrong, or was hurt by someone or felt they were wronged. We have guilt and condemnation or unforgiveness and regret. This is where a person seeks wisdom. The human body even if you are a Dr cannot bring this kind of wisdom to the heart and soul of creation. I believe that what makes mankind equal is that we all take life for granit, especially when we seperate ourself from the truth. When we ignore our heart our conviction within thats hurting spiritually till its waxed over cold. And still even more... denying the truth.As we cling harder to the drink or the pill or the liar for companionship. Choosing to believe with the same guilt ridin,resentful heart, that hope will some day be reached or found our way.Mean while the two things we cant live without Love and Hope keep being watered down and misinterpited day in day out,. For it is here that faith never had a chance to be reconciled to us. Yes this is the reason why we have been decieved for so long, we are putting our trust in man than God vs God than man. Hence the fall of man. Good old Adam, He made a judgement call trusting in his intellect, Whatever been there, I aint going to over think this one I get it.. in my own life. Peace is not over rated its actually way under rated, its that whole have to see it to believe it thing, this is a independent confession thing, it is not an oxy moron like world peace. this is your mind so it is your peace either you desire it or you dont, its not some thing you should have to force on someone. the truth speaks for Himself and He did it perfectly on the cross, if you are suffering do to lack of Faith Hope and Love...give those things that you are clinging to such as unforgiveness and resentment that are responsible for all your doubt and fear,even unconfessed anger. Thats what He died for you know He paid for it in full, simply agree to Jesus you are guilty of possessing all of which you now realise now belongs to Him and give it to Him, then thank Him for taking all those things apon His person so that His Father could cast them ALL as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more. Thats called NOT GUILTY you will have exchanged all your sorrow for joy, all your unforgiveness for complete forgiveness, your sin in exchange for His rightousnesss. this my friends is the good news scripture states that if GOD IS FOR YOU who then can be against you? people this means Justification you no longer have to guilt trip yourself or pretend to be someone your not,for He who the Son sets free is free indeed! this is liberty, now simply find a Bible and see for yourself the rest of the promises God has already prepared for you before hand. And remember Trust God 1st then man,read the book and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in all Rightousness. Merry Christmas and the peace of God be with you and your family and loved ones.
Crazy is like a warm, snuggly blanket to you, isn't it?
Typical religie writing. Sixth- or seventh-grade level at best.
That's quite a vowel movement you just had, eyesguy.
"Typical religie writing" is an incomplete sentence, and uses a nonexistent word. "Sixth- or seventh-grade level at best" is also an incomplete sentence; and the hyphens are completely unnecessary. Athy's post is third or fourth grade level at best.
Actually, the hyphens are necessary for compound adjectives. I realize you probably don't know what that means, but with a grownup's help, maybe you can look it up
As I am sure you figured out Athy, he is simply mimicking what he has seen here. It's like a little kid steering with a frisbee while you drive. He no doubt has taken a bruising for the mangled English of earlier posts, and now is spitefully trying to get his vengence. Incompetently, of course, because he really does not understand the concepts.
This dangerous fundamentalist wants us to regress to a time when our laws were more unfair. Today's classrooms have an even higher rate (~23%) of non-Christian students than when the 1962 & 1963 SCOTUS rulings deemed mandated prayer and Bible reading in public schools uncontitutional. How would Mr. Huckabee implement putting his God back in the classroom in a fair and balanced manner? It's ludicrous – the scare tactic of an extremist.
I do think kids today experience too much non-reality violence, news of violence and real violence in their daily lives. That's not an easy issue to address, but one thing is clear to me regarding that: poor or inadequate parenting at home can never be substituted with a public school education where kids, among kids of differing beliefs, should be learning things that are common to them like English, math and science.
One of the things Mr. Huckabee must have not learned in school is the importance of the separation of church and state in the U.S. As an ordained Baptist minister, he, as much as anyone, should understand the importance of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment. The Baptists may never have flourished in the U.S. had it not been for key founders like James Madison, an Anglican who helped establish the Episcopal church in the U.S., but who stood up for the rights of the Baptists in Virginia. Madison, like several of the other key founders, became more moderate and Deist after childhood. I believe it allowed him to step back from the persecution that was going on between Christian sects at the time and see how silly the arguments were.
He addressed the Virginia General Assembly in 1785 – primarily towards his fellow Anglicans:
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
(from A Memorial and Remonstrance)
During the same time, Quakers were being hung in Massachusetts. Thomas Paine had a few choice things to say about that.
Deism holds to the belief of God as the creator of the universe. But many Deists also believed that God did not interfere with the lives of his creation. And many Deists disbelieved in all of the "magic" in the Bible – some of them refuting the Bible and Christianity completely.
Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Paine, Mason & Madison all witnessed the violent persecution between Christian sects in their home states around the time the government was being established. So it is of no surprise that they needed a secular government and they knew the only way to enforce freedom of religion was to keep religion out of the government as much as possible.
Listen to James Madison speak about the need for the need to keep religion out of government (Jefferson wasn't the only one to explicitly speak of the separation of church and state):
Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
The Civil Govt, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, Whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State.
(from letters to Edward Livingston and Robert Walsh)
Madison as president vetoed two bills that he believed would violate the separation of church and state. He also came to oppose the long-established practice of employing chaplains at public expense in the House of Representatives and Senate on the grounds that it violated the separation of church and state and the principles of religious freedom. (Library of Congress – James Madison Papers – Detached memorandum, ca. 1823.)
Our most recent constitutional Amendment, number 27, adopted in 1992, was first introduced by James Madison in 1789.
Listen to John Adams, POTUS #2:
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
(from A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America [1787-1788])
President John Adams and the U.S. Senate on behalf of the U.S.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
(from Article 11 of the U.S. treaty ratified with Tripoli in 1797)
waitaminute mama k.... Are you trying to say that Fox News and its ilk have been less than truthful in the assertion that we are a Christian nation? So our President isn't Pastor-in-Chief?
That's quite an appeal to authority there, Mama K. It's too bad that an appeal to authority can not prove anything. Fallacies never can. Now, if you could prove that James Madison's or John Adams' reasoning was correct, then you would have a good argument....
A Bash – fallacies? You might want to elaborate on that part. And I don't need to prove any reasoning on their part. I only use their words to indicate their intent for the new government and the Constitution. But no matter, our 1st Amendment is intact and holding strong against the continuous attack it has faced since it was adopted. I'm confident Mr. Huckabee's words will fade like all the others who have attempted to convert our government into a theocracy.
Actually, as the people who defined our nation's government in documents still in use, their comments are not only valid but defining. Indeed, Madison wrote the Constitution. The Supreme Court has often considered other writings of Founding Fathers to understand exactly what was meant, even though they can only rule on the Constitution itself. So that's not a fallacy.
You are just flinging around concepts that you saw here and want to imitate, without having the depth of understanding to know what you are really doing.
There is a difference between pretending you are intelligent and actually being intelligent. You are stuck in the former.
Wow! Major burn!
Basher, it's John Adams's, not John Adams'. The possessive s is dropped only after plural nouns ending with an s. Keep trying, though. Someday you may get it right.
In all fairness, the possessive of words ending in 's' are tricky.
Here's one take:
6. When creating the possessive form of words ending in "s," use only an apostrophe after the "s" if the word ends in a "z" sound. However, if the word ends in an "s" sound use an apostrophe and an additional "s" to create the possessive.
Less Desirable: He was a student in Professor Adams's class.
More Desirable: He was a student in Professor Adams' class.
eeek... "possessive forms are tricky" or "the possessive form is tricky"
Okay, now you guys need to just shut up already. Thanks in advance.
@Righteo: Yes, SCOTUS has sometimes referenced other writings by the framers. Now regarding "You are just flinging around concepts that you saw here and want to imitate, without having the depth of understanding to know what you are really doing." Why don't you take a crack at supporting that notion? You know – show where the framers intent for the 1st Amendment was different that what I stated and supported with quotes.
The Huckster had his head stuck the NRA @$$h_le for too long; can't say anything intelligent except blabbing in the fox hole.
He's playing to the Fox News audience. They want more guns and more Jesus.