December 27th, 2012
07:20 PM ET

Hobby Lobby faces millions in fines for bucking Obamacare

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
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Washington (CNN)– Craft store giant Hobby Lobby is bracing for a $1.3 million a day fine beginning January 1 for noncompliance with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare.

The company opposes providing some contraceptives to employees through its company health care plan on religious grounds, saying some contraceptive products, like the morning after pill, equate to abortion.

After failing to receive temporary relief from the fines from the Supreme Court, Hobby Lobby announced late Thursday through its attorneys that it "will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees. To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs."

In September, Hobby Lobby and affiliate Mardel, a Christian bookstore chain, sued the federal government for violating their owners' religious freedom and ability to freely exercise their religion.

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"All they're asking for is a narrow exemption from the law that says they don't have to provide drugs they believe cause abortions," Hobby Lobby attorney Kyle Duncan, a general counsel for the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, told CNN affiliate KFOR in November. "Our basic point is the government can't put a corporation in the position of choosing between its faith and following the law."

The lawsuit says the companies' religious beliefs prohibit them from providing insurance coverage for abortion inducing drugs. As of August 2012, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act requires employer-provided health care plans to provide "all Food and Drug Administration approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity," according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Churches and houses of worship are exempt from the regulation and a narrow exemption was added for nonprofit religious employers whose employees "primarily share its religious tenets" and who "primarily serve persons who share its religious tenets."

In the face of that opposition, the Department of Health and Human Services tweaked its original rule in February to require health insurers, not employers, to cover the cost of contraception coverage, reasoning that would prevent religious groups from having to finance such coverage. Critics have argued that exemption for nonprofits is far too narrow and a host of nonprofit religious groups have sued the administration over the regulations.

The Internal Revenue Service regulations now say that a group health care plan that "fails to comply" with the Affordable Care Act is subject to an "excise tax" of "$100 per day per individual for each day the plan does not comply with the requirement." It remains unclear how the IRS would implement and collect the excise tax.

The Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, based Hobby Lobby chain has more than 500 stores that employ 13,000 employees across 42 states, and takes in $2.6 billion in sales. The company's attorneys say January begins a new health care plan year for Hobby Lobby and that excise tax from the IRS would amount to $1.3 million a day.

Hobby Lobby is owned by CEO and founder David Green and members of his family. "The foundation of our business has been, and will continue to be strong values, and honoring the Lord in a manner consistent with biblical principles," a statement on the Hobby Lobby website reads, adding that one outgrowth of that is the store is closed on Sundays to give its employees a day of rest. Each year the company also takes out full-page ads in numerous newspapers proclaiming its faith at Christmastime and on Independence Day.

The store is not formally connected to any denomination, but the Green family supports numerous Christian ministries and is behind the Green Collection, one of the largest private collections of biblical antiquities in the world. The family plans to permanently house the collection in Washington at a museum set to open in 2016.

On Friday, attorneys for Hobby Lobby petitioned the Supreme Court to intervene and provide temporary relief from the the fines until the case was decided by the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.

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Wednesday evening, Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who handles emergency appeals from the 10th Circuit Court, said the company failed to meet "the demanding standard for the extraordinary relief," and that it could continue to pursue its challenge in lower courts and return to the higher court, if necessary, after a final judgment.

"Hobby Lobby will continue their appeal before the 10th Circuit. The Supreme Court merely decided not to get involved in the case at this time," Duncan said in a statement.

A spokesperson for the Justice Department declined to comment on the high court's move.

White House officials have long said they believe they have struck an appropriate compromise between religious exemptions and women's health. The White House has not commented specifically on the Hobby Lobby case.

"It's just so sad that Hobby Lobby is facing this choice. What company, even a successful family owned business like Hobby Lobby, how can they afford the government $1.3 million in fines every day? It's just really absurd that government is not giving on this," said Maureen Ferguson, a senior policy adviser for the Catholic Association. Religious liberty groups like hers are watching the Hobby Lobby case closely.

"I am optimistic that these cases will eventually snake their way back up to the Supreme Court and given a full hearing on the merits of the case, I am confident that the Supreme Court will rule in favor of religious liberty," Ferguson said. "But in the meantime there is serious damage being done to businesses like Hobby Lobby and nonprofit charitable organizations."

The Hobby Lobby case is just one of many before the courts over the religious exemption aspects of the law. The case represents by far the biggest for-profit group challenging the health care mandate.

After this piece of the law went into effect in August, religious nonprofits were given "safe harbor" of one year from implementing the law. "In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences," Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, said in January when the administration announced the move.

Dolan's New York Archdiocese won a victory this month in its legal battle against the administration and the mandate. In May it sued the government in federal court in Brooklyn over the mandate, saying it "unconstitutionally attempts to define the nature of the church's religious ministry and would force religious employers to violate their consciences."

The government moved to have the case dismissed. On December 4, Judge Brian M. Cogan denied the government's motion to dismiss the case, saying the government's promise of changes to how it will implement the law were not enough to merit dismissal. "There is no, 'Trust us, changes are coming' clause in the Constitution," Cogan wrote in in his decision to let the case proceed.

UPDATE: Hobby Lobby's $1.3 million Obamacare loophole

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church and state

soundoff (5,627 Responses)
  1. Teapatriot

    If some company were to come and say I am muslim and so want to apply sharia law to my employees I think Prez B. Hussein will be the first to say YES.

    February 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      Oh yes. A Mutt Romney sore loser.

      February 13, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
  2. SoldierOfConscience

    Way to violate people's freedom of religion

    February 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • End Religion

      painted any cave walls lately?

      February 12, 2013 at 11:28 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience


      February 12, 2013 at 11:33 pm |
    • sam stone

      SOC...they are not stopping anyone from believing anything

      February 13, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
  3. Kindness

    This is my experience... Thank you.

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    I Accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners. Even once we are saved by christs merciful grace we will still experience adversity to mold us to adhering to the truth.
    We will slip... But not fall of the ship ...carrying us onward to perfection in christs grace.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith ....above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are by faith above reason in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
    Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith’s door,
    And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
    The, looking in, I saw upon the floor
    Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
    “How many anvils have you had,” said I,
    “To wear and batter all these hammers so?”
    “Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
    “The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”
    And so, thought I, the anvil of God’s Word,
    For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
    Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
    The anvil is unharmed – the hammers gone.

    Truth is exclusive

    February 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • .

      The fact you post the same type of crap over and over again is proof you have an ego problem!

      February 12, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      Kindness...............You give SH IT a bad name.

      February 12, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
  4. Fransisca Walder

    Snakes are elongate, legless, carnivorous reptiles of the suborder Serpentes that can be distinguished from legless lizards by their lack of eyelids and external ears. Like all squamates, snakes are ectothermic, amniote vertebrates covered in overlapping scales. `

    My own online site

    February 12, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
  5. hwertz

    I'm playing the world's smallest violin for Hobby Lobby. If you don't believe in medical care, then feel free to cut everyone's insurance and see how that goes. But the fact of the matter is there's no scientific OR medical basis for your decision to not provide certain forms of medical care for your medical care coverage. If you want to persudae your employees not to seek this type of medical care, go ahead. But it's not your choice to make up medical insurance that arbitrarily doesn't cover certain forms of medical care.

    February 12, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
  6. Bojan Debil

    I've made $84,000 so far this year working online and I'm a full time student. Im using an online business opportunity I heard about and I've made such great money. It's really user friendly and I'm just so happy that I found out about it. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I do, Rich45.ℂOM

    February 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
  7. Wrathbrow

    I say let Hobby Lobby and others that agree with them not pay for birth control, and let anyone else pay for it.
    Then for children/people that are born they pay for their medical expenses for the rest of that life and the rest of us don't have to.
    All a company needs do for this to work is indicate that is part of their belief.
    Hint: guess which of these two options cost more, a lot more in the long run.

    February 12, 2013 at 9:31 am |
  8. Nathan

    The fact remains that Hobby Lobby is not a religious company. It is not a church. It is merely a retail store with religious owners. And as such, they owners have no legal grounds to force all employees to live by the religious convictions of the founders or chief executives.

    Hobby Lobby cannot file for legal corporate status and protections and take all the good that comes with that and then pick and choose what rules they don't want to follow. The second the founder applied for corporate citizenship and sought to designate his company as a separate ent.ity so as to claim benefits such as shielding himself from liability claims, etc, then he agreed to all the other conditions of such a legal arrangement as well.

    February 11, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • Jay in NC

      Chief executive Obama does not have the right to force us to live by his religious convictions.

      February 11, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Who said he did? That's why we have THREE branches of government, doofus.

      February 11, 2013 at 7:24 pm |
  9. Josef F

    How would all you Good Christians feel if the company you work for was bought by Jehovah Witnesses and suddenly didn't want to pay for blood transfusions due to religious objections?

    February 11, 2013 at 8:14 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      I would feel like I needed to look for work elsewhere or possibly get a supplemental policy

      February 11, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do tell? Even if the law says otherwise?

      February 11, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      The question presupposes that the law does not say that, at least as I read it. I would oppose any law that required someone to provide a benefit to me which was against their valid religious conviction. Before you jump on "valid" as a loophole, you should recognize that the court has a history of requiring validity of religious belief before granting exemptions. Review American Indian beliefs in the penal system for examples.

      February 12, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If the law requires HL to provide health insurance that includes contraceptives and they choose not to do it, they are breaking the law. If you're so delusional that you think anyone who doesn't approve of HL's actions should ignore the fact that the company is breaking the law and simply go look for work elsewhere, you are past help.

      February 12, 2013 at 7:09 pm |
  10. YeahItsMe72

    Being Religious hardly makes you qualified to determine what procedures are appropriate for another individual. When you pay taxes they fund all sorts of programs, some you'd agree with, some you wouldn't, but after the taxes are collected it's not your money to spend.

    The abortion war is over. The general consensus in this country is that women should have access to proper medical care when deciding (with their doctor) how to maintain their own health. For those of you too young to remember pre Roe v Wade, there weren't less abortions. Women just risked their lives getting them in unsafe conditions by non medical professionals.

    Some people think they are debating whether a life is preserved, but the fact is, you can't legislate morality or behavior. When abortions were illegal, women died or did serious harm to their bodies trying to have them. Roe v Wade was about giving women who will make the choice to have an abortion access to safe and professional medical care.

    The abortion issue was just used to manipulate religious groups into a voting block, pre late 70s the church wasn't even against abortions. Look it up.

    February 10, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' "Pro-Life Activities" website, the Catholic Church has condemned procured abortion as immoral since the 1st century. Some early Christian doctrinal docuuments rejecting abortion are the Didache and the Letter of Barnabas and the works of 2nd-century writers Tertullian and Athenagoras of Athens. In the 5th century, St. Augustine "vigorously condemned the practice of induced abortion" as a crime, in any stage of pregnancy,

      February 12, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
  11. getridofobummer

    well stated ladyofreasonndfaith

    February 10, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
  12. Dan

    What if abortion entailed saving the child and killing the mother? I mean, the baby does'nt have a problem,he's good to go and wants to live, but the mother has the problem, for some reason she's not able to live with the baby. That's her problem, not the baby! Besides it's2013, there's no excuse for not being prepared, other than sloth or indifference

    February 9, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You have nothing to say about her decision. No women are lining up at your door to hear you pronounce your bloviating opinion about what is none of your business. Bugger off.

      February 9, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "The baby is good to go." What an idiot you are.

      First of all, abortion isn't the issue in question here, except in the pea-brains of the owners of HL. Plan B doesn't cause abortion

      Secondly, there's no "baby" being aborted. It's a fetus. And in the VAST majority of cases, it's a fetus less than 8 weeks old–not a "baby." It's not viable outside the uterus, dumbazz, so it's not "good to go."

      Thirdly, fetuses aren't sentient. Tell us all one thing you remember from your time in the womb, you doofus.

      February 9, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
  13. Salad Spinner

    Its all a bunch of hooey, if you want to end a pregnancy and you are employed by Hobby Lobby then guess what, it will be on your dime. A lot more could be said about this but I won't. It is their right, you as an employee knew or should have known their policies. Remember Joan Crawford? There are alternatives.

    February 9, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Salad Spinner

      And one more thing, godisimaginaryd0tc0m.

      February 9, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Actually, the point was it was not their legal right. Rights are just being modified(the laws rewritten, if you read the follow-up stories) to allow them to do this.

      February 9, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You don't get to make that determination about HL's "rights." The courts do.

      February 9, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
  14. Kevin

    It seems to me to be a case of personal responsibility and who has to pay for it. It is easy to tell people what is right and wrong when you are not directly paying for it. To me a serious health condition and the consequences of a one night stand don't relate.

    February 9, 2013 at 10:55 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Why would you imagine that the need for the morning-after pill involves a "one-night stand?" Married women whose birth control method has been compromised take this pill. So do ra pe victims. And unintended pregnancies cause premature birth, low-weight babies, and children with learning disabilities. I'd say those are serious conditions. So is pregnancy.

      February 9, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • Saraswati

      You do realize that what's happening here is that preventing a pregnancy (which has significant health impacts) is not to be covered while they will be covering eczema treatment and managing ingrown toenails? If everything less "serious" than pregnancy is dropped from insurance a heck of a lot won't be covered.

      February 9, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
  15. Christie

    well done, Hobby Lobby! Stand on your faith and do not compromise! We have no part with the deeds of darkness.

    February 9, 2013 at 7:10 am |
    • Paul R. Barnard


      February 11, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • Ken Margo


      February 11, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • sam stone

      deeds of darkness? overdramatize much?

      February 13, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
  16. Science

    To Hobby Lobby time to evolve

    Published on Jan 13, 2013

    Program Description
    Over 60,000 years ago, the first modern humans—people physically identical to us today—left their African homeland and entered Europe, then a bleak and inhospitable continent in the grip of the Ice Age. But when they arrived, they were not alone: the stocky, powerfully built Neanderthals had already been living there for hundred of thousands of years. So what happened when the first modern humans encountered the Neanderthals? Did we make love or war? That question has tantalized generations of scholars and seized the popular imagination. Then, in 2010, a team led by geneticist Svante Paabo announced stunning news. Not only had they reconstructed much of the Neanderthal genome—an extraordinary technical feat that would have seemed impossible only a decade ago—but their analysis showed that "we" modern humans had interbred with Neanderthals, leaving a small but consistent signature of Neanderthal genes behind in everyone outside Africa today. In "Decoding Neanderthals," NOVA explores the implications of this exciting discovery. In the traditional view, Neanderthals differed from "us" in behavior and capabilities as well as anatomy. But were they really mentally inferior, as inexpressive and clumsy as the cartoon caveman they inspired? NOVA explores a range of intriguing new evidence for Neanderthal self-expression and language, all pointing to the fact that we may have seriously underestimated our mysterious, long-vanished human cousins.

    Science & Technology



    February 9, 2013 at 6:42 am |
  17. LK2000

    Hobby Lobby is not being forced to perform an abortion (which BTW is a legal procedure). The rest of it is too far-removed. The company has to do business with an insurance company that would pay a hospital / physician for a pill that may be requested by some of their employees. Per science, the pill does not work on a fertilized egg. If you want to maintain 6 degrees of separation, you can't survive.

    February 8, 2013 at 8:51 pm |
  18. Kevin

    The fact that Hobby Lobby "believes" the morning after pill is an "abortion pill" (whatever that is) is irrelevant. The FACT of the matter is that they are wrong.

    It's so cute that they're throwing away money for nothing though <3

    February 8, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Logic

      The FDA still says it prevents implantation. The Plan B website still says it prevents implantation. Some studies say it does, some studies say it doesn't. No consensus. A Christian can't choose the easier path, they have to give the benefit of the doubt to the possibility of what it could do.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Religion is not healthy for children nor any living thing

      Excuse me, but since when is it a sin to avoid pregnancy?

      February 8, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Since legally anything that chemically prevents implantation is an abortion.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Cite the law.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • Jen

      Yes please share Bill.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, this should be priceless.

      February 8, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Gee, crickets chirping from the Dill. I'm shocked.

      February 8, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Sorry, been away for a few days. Didn't realize you were waiting on me to do your research. Here's a list of states with person hood laws and links to the legislation:

      Virginia – On February 15, 2012, Virginia's House passed the first personhood law in the United States.
      Oklahoma – On February 16, the Oklahoma state senate passed a fetal personhood law.

      These are external links to the language of each of the bills described above:

      Oklahoma House & Senate bills

      Full text can be found at Text of the Oklahoma Personhood Bill.

      Virginia House & Senate bills

      Full text can be found at Text of the Virginia Personhood Bill.

      Colorado 2008 Amendment

      Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Colorado: SECTION 1. Article II of the constiitution of the state of Colorado is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION to read: Section 31. Person defined. As used in sections 3, 6, and 25 of article II of the state constiitution, the terms "person" or "persons" shall include any human being from the moment of fertilization.

      Colorado 2010 Amendment

      Section 32. Person defined. As used in sections 3, 6, and 25 of Article II of the state constiitution, the term "person" shall apply to every human being from the beginning of the biological development of that human being.

      Nevada Personhood Amendment (2014)

      The People of the State of Nevada do enact as follows: RESOLVED, That a new section designated Section 23 to be added to Article 1 of the Constiitution of the State of Nevada to read as follows: "In the great state of Nevada, the term 'person' applies to every human being."

      Missouri Personhood Amendment (2010) – (did not appear on ballot after court challenge)

      Shall the Missouri Constiitution be amended to define the term “person” to be from the beginning of biological development and grant such person constiitutional rights and access to courts under the equal protection, due process, and open courts provisions of the Missouri Constiitution?

      February 11, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And every one of them has exemptions for abortion, dipwad.

      February 11, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Not a thing you've posted says a word about the prevention of implantation being "abortion," you lying pos.

      February 11, 2013 at 7:26 pm |
    • Jen

      What??? What do the personhood laws have anything to do with what you said above?? You said that anything that prevents implantation is an abortion. The experts (American college of obstetricians and gynecologists) say that pregnancy starts at implantation. You can't have an abortion when you aren't pregnant. Please cite the law that says that preventing implantation is an abortion.

      February 11, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • Jen

      Ha ha Tom. You beat me to it.

      Still waiting Bill.....

      February 11, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      He can't, Jen. He's attempting to play a shell game with the facts, as usual. Why would anyone who has any credibility need to do that?

      Oh, wait. We're talking about the Dill here, aren't we? He has no credibility.

      February 11, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I'm not surprised. Didn't really expect anything relevant or addressing the post from Bob.

      February 11, 2013 at 7:32 pm |
  19. Logic

    Then my apologies, I missed that little part in the parenthesis there. Regardless, I did say that "If IVF cannot be done without the "selective fetal reduction" (aka abortion)", so that was covered. And again, my religious beliefs need not enter into it. If a baby is a person, I argue that that person has the same rights we all have, including quite specifically the right to life. This would still not make it something a Catholic could morally participate in, though.

    And no, I was not part of the 98% since that poll was about Catholic _women_, but I'm guessing you're not saying that specifically, so I'll let it slide since I understand your point. Again, _NOT AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION_ of the truth, since the statements regarding the poll keep saying things about what people "do" rather than differentiating it from what they "have ever" done. And I'm not saying that the number of Catholics that do mostly follow Church teaching and yet use contraceptives is particularly low. I'm saying it doesn't mean what the pollster and government are presenting it to mean. I fully agree that the Church has not done a good enough job informing its followers of the rules. As for people that repent, you can't repent without regret, otherwise you aren't forgiven. Saying you're sorry means nothing unless you actually are sorry.

    February 8, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Logic

      D'oh!!! AGAIN! Sorry, meant to post this on the bottom of comment page 59.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
    • iLogical

      So far I have yet to read one actual "logical" post from you. Please take a course on reading comprehension and maybe a debate class or two.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      A baby is a person. A fetus is not a baby. A baby has rights. A fetus does not.

      A fertilized egg is not a fetus. A fertilized egg is not a baby. A fertilized egg does not have rights.

      Women do. Get over it.

      February 8, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
  20. irene

    What a woman and her Dr. Decide in the privacy of a medical facility is no business of any employer. If it's legal, the employer should have no say and no knowledge according to HIPAA law. No employer has the right to impose their religious belief on employees who do not agree that certain types of BC are immoral based on science. Fine them!

    February 8, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Logic

      Hobby Lobby agrees with you. They do not prevent any of their employees from making their own medical decisions, nor do they ask what medical decisions an employee makes. And they are not imposing their religious beliefs on anybody. Nobody has a _right_ to work at Hobby Lobby, they are a private company. Nobody is being forced to work at Hobby Lobby, nor are they being forced to stay. And Hobby Lobby is not hiding the religious beliefs of their owners. The government is violating their First Amendment _RIGHTS_.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Says who? You? You're not a legal authority, Logic-less. The courts will decide whether HL's first amendment rights are being violated, not you. You're not qualified to render a judgment.

      February 8, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • ladyofreasonandfaith

      No HL does not have there right to know what goes on between a doctor and patient.....ever. However, they should have the right to choose what health benefits they provide tot heir employees, and as a privately owned company they have the right to decide if their benefit package is aligned with their beliefs, values, and mission. In a sense it is using law to force a secular belief system on a business owner who fundamentally rejects it. If I under stand correctly, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Our beliefs and values as Christians will and should extend to financial decision regarding any enterprise we are involved with, so has Obama care found a way to violate the 1st amendment? It sure seems like it.

      Why is it so important that a company provide one medical service over another? Wouldn't the company with the best coverage get the best employees? How is it the governments business what kind of coverage if any, is provided to employees? Why are responsible business owners forced to foot the bill for those who are obese, smokers, alcoholics etc..? Most of the factors in these 3 examples are the result of personal choices, shouldn't the consequences also be personal? If they are not, then legally speaking, the government does really become the parent. Out of mere need to control cost they will be vigilant over what we eat, how late we stay up, what drugs we really need and in the worst case whether or not it is worth funding a wide array of treatments to keep someone alive that will never contribute to the tax base that he is taking from.

      Why is the abortion issue so inflammatory? Even if Roe v. Wade fell off of the face of the earth, abortion would still be legal until states enacted legislation to restrict it with in their respective jurisdictions. Then everyone who wanted to have abortions would just go to the states that allowed it, everyone who wanted to live in a state that was pro-life would move there. We would have the right to choose to live in areas that supported our belief system.

      There is a larger issue of freedom here. The government does not give us our rights, it extends and defines privileges under the law, our rights are inalienable which means that we have them because God gave them to us, or if you are an atheist you have your rights because you exist, because you were born and not aborted. In our country rights are protected, and should be protected equally. This however means that we do not have the right to not ever be offended. We do not have the right to force someone to pay for imposing our beliefs against their own personal belief system. We do not have the right to be protected from offensive speech when it does not incite violence or panic.

      Are we really ready to give up our freedoms? Can the government make better decisions for your life than you can? Seriously, i think that there is a bigger grab for power than what is being relayed by the media in their emotional stories regarding women's rights, and poor families suffering from devastating illnesses.

      February 10, 2013 at 10:46 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.