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 A scholarly article based on the 'Jesus Wife' fragment was delayed as researchers waited on further testing.
January 3rd, 2013
02:30 PM ET
'Jesus Wife' fragment gets more testing, delays articleBy Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Editor (CNN) - One of the most anticipated articles in religion circles will be absent from the pages of the January edition of the Harvard Theological Review. Harvard Divinity School professor Karen King's final article on the "Jesus wife" fragment did not make the scholarly journal because further testing on the Coptic papyrus fragment has not been finished. King announced the findings of the 1.5-by-3 inch, honey-colored fragment in September at the International Association for Coptic Studies conference in Rome. In a draft version of the article submitted for publication in the January edition, King and her co-author said the scrap had written in Coptic, a language used by Egyptian Christians, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife," but was then cut off. King said the fragment dates to the 4th century but could be a copy of an early gospel from the 2nd century. King and her research partners dubbed the hypothetical text "the Gospel of Jesus' Wife." Despite King's insistence, the discovery did not prove anything definitive on the marital status of Jesus. The announcement of the papyrus scrap exploded in the media. "The earliest reliable historical tradition is completely silent on that. So we're in the same position we were before it was found. We don't know if [Jesus] was married or not," King told reporters in a conference call from Rome in September. 5 questions and answers about Jesus' 'wife' A dealer took the fragment to King for analysis and translation in 2011. The dealer wishes to remain anonymous, she said. "We're moving ahead with the testing, but it is not yet complete, and so the article will await until we have the results," King said in an email to CNN. "The owner of the fragment has been making arrangements for further testing and analysis of the fragment, including testing by independent laboratories with the resources and specific expertise necessary to produce and interpret reliable results. This testing is still underway," Kathyrn Dodgson, director of communications for the Harvard Divinity School, said in a email to CNN. "Harvard Theological Review is planning to publish Professor King’s paper after conclusion of all the testing so that the results may be incorporated," Dodgson said. "Until testing is complete, there is nothing more to say at this point." Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter In her original article King explained how a papyrus expert had dated the fragment to the right time frame and how an expert on Coptic linguistics said the grammar seemed to fit the time period, as well. But what was untested in the early goings was the ink used on the papyrus. Elaine Pagels, a professor from Princeton University who is an expert on gnostic writings such as this one, noted to CNN in September "You can find boxes filled with Coptic fragments," but what makes this one significant is for the first time it explicitly has Jesus referring to "my wife." Faking antiquities is not uncommon, which is part of the reason so many critics questioned the authenticity of a text that potentially went against nearly every other ancient text concerning Jesus. Other scholars refused to comment on the find until the full battery of testing could be completed. “The academic community has been badly burned,” Douglas A. Campbell, an associate professor of New Testament at Duke Divinity School said in September, noting how similar discoveries have turned out to be fakes. The provenance of the document, "the history of where it came from and how they got it,” was a great concern to Campbell and other academics. The Vatican newspaper weighed in on the matter in late September mincing no words and calling the fragment “a fake.” CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories On the day King announced the fragment, the Smithsonian channel announced it had been working with King for months on a documentary about the find and the authentication process. It had been slated to air in early October but was pulled back. Tom Hayden, general manager of the Smithsonian channel, said in a statement in October the delay "will enable us to present a richer and more complete story. We will be announcing a new premiere date in the coming weeks." No announcement has been made as to when the premier will happen. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Neanderthals and hobbits aren't the only species that may have coexisted with modern humans. Scientists in southwest China have discovered the bizarrely shaped skulls of a possible new human species called the Red Deer Cave People that existed until the end of the ice age, about 11,000 years ago. The odd skeletons had prominent jaws and jutting cheekbones, and middling-sized brains more commonly seen in human ancestors from hundreds of thousands of years ago.
There have been thousands of human species in existance. Most are now extinct.
As this one will also be, relatively soon.
This has nothing to do with the subject.
Are we intelligent enough to know God to the extent that we are talking about him over here in this forum? A majority of people in this world believes in a supreme being, and whether its blind faith or any other kind of faith, it has worked for them. God or this force called God do exist in some form or the other, because if all things have to be created from something and if you understand the building blocks of life, it always boils down to one particular type of element, and logic tells us that all life's matters came from one particular mass or element. This can be attributed to a central force which created all things. In the matter of Jesus, frankly, it shouldnt really matter if He was married or otherwise, because what matters is who He represents to you in your life. If He is a nobody, then so be it, but if you have some belief in Him or some faith in Him, I believe its good, because, in times of loneliness, despair, problems you cannot solve, or just wish you had someone to talk to, you can just talk and know that He will be there and if you 'listen', you'll hear Him in some form or the other.
There will be many who might ridicule this statement, but that's ok, because, when you have faith that He's real and He's there for you, its like a bully who bullies without thinking that you have someone who would come over and take care of him later. The bully wouldnt know that until he gets bullied thereafter.
I for one cannot understand God, or even actually know what He looks like, but I know for certain, He's real and so does the two biggest and most powerful religions in this world – Christianity and Islam, while some of those in these religions might fight over whose religion is the best, I say, its all the same, 'cause, both talks and believes in the One God and the Lord Jesus Christ. If the world's two biggest denominations of faith can talk of a single being, and a man called Jesus, one just has to concede that, may be, just may be, there's more to it than we know.
How has it "worked" for them? Look at what is done in the name of GOD. You really think it's "working"? This world is your definition of "work"? Really?
What, exactly, makes god a "him"?
My prediction about the fragment is that no matter what the results of testing the people that trust science will accept the findings, and the believers will not if it goes against their dogma. The hardest part about skepticism is accepting the truth.
True, people only see what they want to see. So can we not say that the people who "trust science" are not adherents to some kind of scientific dogma that they believe in?
How can you prove that Jesus wasn't Satan?
You got me!...wow... now you know why Jesus got yanked so fast and hasnt been seen since.... Was the best ploy I had too...
God ripped the legs off my oringinal avatar... im can still move but lot o dirt in the teeth, then i hatch the Jesus...hoping to gain followers and maybe, maybe get back in the Big Guy's graces with some helpful magic tricks..... turns out He isnt really interested in good and kindness as he is with money and getting praises... pulled my act at the drop of the hat... and had me crusified to boot. (what ? y'all really think a father would actually allow this to happen to his son? now you know....)
Or even Santa...
That stupid question doesn't deserve a response.
Can you prove he was?
Hate to say it folks, but Bootyfunk is 100% right. If you are all blindly drinking the religious Kool-aid, you will never see "the light". God is a nice fairy tale. 99% of folks KNOW this to be true. Unless you live in the South or Midwest (or do the whole cult thing here in the "big city") – most normal people do not actually believe in the stories in the bible. We know they are just children's stories created as fiction to make a point. A "moral of the story" so to speak.
Wise up kids. You are following someone else's imagination. Like Puff the Magic Dragon or Sandy Claws!
Live4Him wrote on January 3, 2013 at 8:45 pm, @lionlylamb: “You may need to rethink the wording in your post. How could you claim that God (who is omniscient) would be in awe of the future?”
Sorry but there is no word “omniscient” written within the KJVB. You’re taking sight of omniscience meaning “having infinite knowledge” does in no way say God knows all outcomes. God, our Creator may well know of many things and all things under consideration but I can assure you that God does in no way know of humanity’s ongoing outcomes for only God can see our potential but not our ongoing labored potencies.
God may want us to be divinely inspired thru our dreamt states in our daydreaming ways thru which God gives us reasoning ways of soulful impartations wherewith all mannerisms of many material and medical contrivances become many people’s manifestations of realness.
"but I can assure you that God does in no way know of humanity’s ongoing outcomes"
What a wackaloon. You "can assure" us about what God knows or doesn't know?
Tommie girlie (He is a she folks)
You of all know quite well that things in life cannot be known, therefore it stand to be a reasonability that God knows not also. If God knew that outcomes of everything, how boring would God's life then be?
A bigger question is how would God even know that he is omniscient? He may think that he is, but how could he possibly know?
The whole story has lots and lots of gaps, you know, the kind you get when a bunch of guys who are not on the same page (or even in the same time) have their short stories thrown together to make The Final Word on God.
And believe me, Hes all powerful – dont ask how I, Lucifer...the Ultimate Evil, and quite a smart dude, would think Id pull of a coup against the Big Guy, But i did... (It was a long night..lots o sauce ..and i may have ran my mouth at the heavenly card game...and well God ..he isnt exactly the most forgiving sort ..see Bible) .. and now like y'all i wait for the end and my destruction....but hey is all in the name o fun right?
Lucifer
You might want to read the last book of the Bible and consider changing your master plan. Psssst... They're on to you!!
An even bigger question is this: In a fight, who would win – god or superman? But no, not aquaman – never aquaman!!!
I think you are quite possible the biggest idiot on this forum tonight.
What is translated in the King James bible as 'god almighty' was nothing more than 'god of the mountain' in the original text. And the Jewish super god YHWH, Yahweh or Jehovah, was nothing more than 'god of thunder' in the original text and became their super god only when the Khapiru of 'apiru came into contact with the followers of Zarathustra who lived 3,200 years ago and is considered the world's first prophet. His version of creation lasted one year, not the 6 days in the bible. If you believe in heaven or paradise (Old Perisan-paira daeza) then you follow the teaching of Zarathustra. Also, if you believe in the devil (Old Persian–daeva), in the coming of a messiah (Saoshyant), in judgment day, in resurrection, in angels and baptism, those are all borrowed from Zarathustra. "Good thoughts. Good words. Good deeds." Zarathustra If you can do this, you don't need an organized religion that asks for money each week. If you don't do this, your soul (if you have one) could spend eternity in hell, if it exists.( It's based on seeing volcanoes erupt.)
Laugh all you want morans. I believe there is a flying midget between Jupiter and Saturn. Prove that there isn't one.
Anyone who spells "morons" as "morans" is, as you might guess, a moron.
Russell's Teapot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.
If that's what you believe in then alright. If it can't be proven one way or the other then it's up to each of us to make our own conclusions about your belief because no matter how you slice it if it can't be proven one way or the other then it can't be proven.
Kev
What if his belief states that short people aren't allowed to own pets? Nobody much cares what weird stuff these people believe, but when they try to impose their beliefs upon all of us, as fundamentalist Christians so often do, reasonable people have to speak out, right?
*cracking up*
@ Franklin, If your that freaked out about short people not owning pets then by all means speak out your concerns, put in your no vote. From what I last heard this country is still a democratic republic. If you even want to promote legislation to protect short peoples owning rights, then go right ahead.
@Gazoo, well maybe he is a "moran". He might be related to Erin Moran who played Joanie on "Happy Days".
Kev
The question comes down to whether or not even a majority has the right to legislate keeping certain rights away from a minority? Is it even const_itutional for people to be discriminated against simply based upon their hight, ... or gender, race, se_xual orientation, and so on?
@Franklin – you're assuming YOUR definitions of "weird" and "reasonable" are universally shared.
did you guys hear?!? they found an old fragment in a book that mentions Dr. Seuss! it means the Cat in the Hat is real! OMG!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioLEFRZP-_A
There is no god. Why would you think there was one?
Why would you think there isn't one?
probably that whole 'evidence' thing.
@Bootyfunk: You're right. There is plenty of evidence to support the Biblical narrative. So, why don't you accept the evidence?
such as?
Live4Him
Why would you think that any of the other gods aren't real? When you figure that out you'll know why so many people don't believe that your's is real either.
@Live4Him
Why start believing in something without proof? Why would you think you have gold in your head without proof? Without even an X-ray? Where is your evidence that any god exits?
if jesus did exist, he was just a cult leader, like david koresh. no different. cult leaders always mix messages of love into their brand of insanity. they always sell 'truth'. snake oil. the jesus myth was taken from other stories told before. look up horus, dionysus, mitra, etc. the jesus from the bible isn't original - they pieced his legend together from other cultures' myths.
Booty,
Did you not read in Genesis 1 where it is written "Let us create"? Who do you think God was inferring to is not God's sons or even some of God's own kinds?
horus, dionysus, mitra,
Horus
(Hor, Heru, Her)
Symbols: hawk/falcon, bull, Double Crown, Winged Disk, Udjat, Sphinx, weapons, iron, blacksmiths
Cult Center: Edfu, Buto and Heliopolis
Myths: Isis and Osiris
The falcon-headed god, the kings of Egypt associated themselves with Horus. Horus was among the most important gods of Egypt, particularly because the Pharaoh was supposed to be his earthly embodiment. Kings would eventually take the name of Horus as one of their own. At the same time, the Pharaohs were the followers of Re and so Horus became associated with the sun as well. To the people this solar deity became identified as the son of Osiris. Attempts to resolve the conflicts between these different gods in different parts of Egypt resulted in at least fifteen distinct forms of Horus.
DIONYSOS (or Dionysus) was the great Olympian god of wine, vegetation, pleasure and festivity. He was depicted as either an older bearded god or a pretty effeminate, long-haired youth. His attributes included the thyrsos (a pine-cone tipped staff), drinking cup, leopard and fruiting vine. He was usually accompanied by a troop of Satyrs and Mainades (female devotees or nymphs).
Mitra (Proto-Indo-Iranian, nominative *Mitras) was an important Indo-Iranian divinity. Following the prehistoric cultural split of Indo-Aryan and Iranian cultures, names descended from *mitra were used for the following religious enti.ties:
Mitra (Vedic) (Sanskrit Mitrá-, Mitráḥ), a deity who appears frequently in the ancient Sanskrit text of the Rigveda
Mithra (Avestan Miθra-, Miθrō), a yazata mentioned in the Zoroastrian sacred scripture of the Avesta, whose New Persian equivalent is Mīhr / Mehr (مِهر)
Maitreya, a bodhisattva who in the Buddhist tradition is to appear on Earth, achieve complete enlightenment, and teach the pure Dharma
Mithras, the principal figure of the Greco-Roman religion of Mithraism
Mitra (surname), an Indian family name and surname found mostly amongst Bengali
Horus:
Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Dionysus:
Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an a.ss.” He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification. Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25. He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine. He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb. His sacrificial t.itle of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.
MITHRA OF PERSIA
–Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
–He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
–He had 12 companions or disciples.
–Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
–He performed miracles.
–As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
–He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
–His resurrection was celebrated every year.
–He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
–He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," [Word] "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
–His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
–Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
–His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
–"His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
You read too many websites. Pagan religions have always absorbed winning elements into their belief system to make them more appealing. However, while there is evidence that Mitra came before Jesus, the earliest evidence of a Virgin Birth is in the Biblical story of Jesus. This implies that the Mitra followers attempted to make their religion more appealing by including a virgin birth too.
Robert Brown,
All we can do to God's brethren and their ongoing generations is write stories and try to emulate all their known to us realities even though we have tenured them as being sheer mythologies. The years are now waning and times are now shortened yet the consciences dare loom from the tenures of agelessness giving rise memories once lost and so long forgotten! All megalithic life will one day meet their bodies' makers upon one's death.1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
"However, while there is evidence that Mitra came before Jesus, the earliest evidence of a Virgin Birth is in the Biblical story of Jesus."
absolutely untrue. there are MANY other gods that had virgin births before Jesus. to say that tells me you don't have access to Google. just the number of Asian gods that had virgin births is a long list....
"This implies that the Mitra followers attempted to make their religion more appealing by including a virgin birth too."
you did make a good point here. virgin birth was added to christianity to make that religion more appealing. the actual biblical translation of 'virgin' was a mistake. it was supposed to be 'young woman', but they thought it read 'virgin'. so mary wasn't really a virgin anyway... just a young woman. this is a well known scholarly error.
The biblical sources for the virgin conception are a few short passages in two of the four Gospels. In Matthew, an angel appears to Joseph, who is perplexed about his fiancee's pregnancy. Should he divorce Mary or have her stoned her to death, as the law of Deuteronomy requires? "Joseph, Son of David," says the angel, "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus." The angel then goes on to quote the Hebrew prophet Isaiah. "Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel." (In fact, "virgin" comes from Matthew's use of a Greek mistranslation; the Hebrew in Isaiah reads "young girl.") The version in Luke is similar.
So far, the Scripture sounds pretty clear. But the infancy narratives from Matthew and Luke must be squared with some startling silences, alternative Greek translations, and a couple of snide comments from Jesus' hometown critics. Paul never mentions the virgin conception and in Galatians describes Christ as "born of a woman." John's Gospel says nothing on the subject of Jesus' conception. And Mark describes the shocked response of the synagogue-goers of Jesus' hometown of Nazareth when Jesus as an adult returns to preach and teach as God's chosen one.
@Bootyfunk "there are MANY other gods that had virgin births before Jesus": Please name the earliest extant manuscript that mentions a virgin birth.
there are NUMEROUS gods that have the 'virgin' story. LOL. seriously, do some research. it's a very common theme. makes the offspring seem pretty special, eh? hercules is a well-doc.umented figure that had a virgin birth by his mother, Prudence and his god-father Zeus. btw, why do you think they call girls who don't go all the way "prude"? there are so many... i'll just list a good webstie that talks about some of them:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap5.html
tell me what you think? or are you going to ignore the fact that there were numerous virgin births before jesus'?
The important thing is that people claimed to have witnessed Jesus on earth, but people do not claim to have witness any of those other gods.
It is amazing the amount of common beliefs in so many cultures even ancient cultures predating Jesus's day of Christ-like storylines in their sagas. In ways like in the Old Testament with performing the animal sacrifices to represent the great sacrifice the coming Messiah would make along with the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah, there were other cultures that shared similar stories. Makes one think of the possible tracing of the beliefs of all.peoples coming ultimately from the same source possibly from the same god worshiped by Adam and Eve?
Do you have any scholarly support for that? I understood that was an internet myth.
Many of the beliefs in Judaism came from Zoroastrianism-the religion of the Persian liberators of the Hebrew from Babylon-including the existence of angels and dmeons, hell, last judgment, and a messiah. They of course then found there way into Christianity and Islam.
Kev
Isn't it more likely that the Hebrews were the ones who copied the earlier myths of their neighbors? Honestly, Your argument makes about as much sense as saying that Stoker borrowed from the Twilight series when he wrote Dracula.
Booytfunk, you do realize that you are practically quoting the cult scientiology founder, right?
Franklin, Actually that would only be likely if you assume that Adam and Eve are only tied to the Hebrews. Even there the origins of the beliefs of the Hebrews, historically speaking, are not completely known. There are still pieces of the puzzle that have yet to be found that could bring some further insight. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a good example. Now that doesn't really prove my theory, but I was only speculating to begin with. However when you have those who use the examples of other pre Christian cultures beliefs to say that Christianity copied from them as straight fact are just full of it.
But in all respect for what people want to believe in, what funny is that people tend not to believe in the bible, even if time after time is presented to them evidence that the historical events written actually happened... But they prefere believing in some peace of paper that was found, with no evidence of its authenticy, of make any personal investigation on it... But because it says that Christ had wife, of sons... Then they believe it right away..! Just saying!
yes, like in the bible where it says the earth is flat. or that there was plants before a sun. or earth before a sun. or that some guy parted an ocean with magic. or walked on water. or made wine from water magically. there are unicorns, dragons and satyrs in the bible. so no, not everyone takes the bible fairy tales as history.
Bootyfunk- if you have lived in the lets say 1800s and I told u that men is able to fly to the moon, you would probably laugh at me... But that is a fact!!
and what does that have to do with jesus walking on water? people still can't do that and even if they could via new tech in the future, jesus obviously didn't have access to that tech. it's made up, silly. LOL @ you trying to compare stone age magic to modern technology as some sort of evidence for your side...
Christ's body being but a Godly building did house quite possibly innumerable Godly kinds and many sons and daughters all giving God's physical son being Christ Jesus the abilities to do the miraculous! Therefore due Christ's body being God's building did most likely house ore than enough Godly entourages of powerfully mystical beings capable of doing said miracles. Hence, 1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!" Need I write more?
Lionlamb – Pal, you need to explain what you wrote on your two post... Doesnt make any sense....!!
Bootyfunk – What im trying to say is this:
Consider some modern accomplishments that may have been considered impossible just a few decades ago:
● An airplane can transport more than 800 passengers nonstop from New York to Singapore, traveling at a cruising speed of 560 miles per hour (900 km/h).
● Video conferences can enable people on different continents to engage in face-to-face conversations.
● Thousands of songs can be stored on a device smaller than a box of matches.
● Surgeons can transplant hearts and other body parts.
What logical conclusion can we draw from such facts? This: If humans can accomplish feats that just a few years ago seemed impossible, then surely the God who created the universe and all that is in it can perform amazing acts that we do not yet fully understand or cannot presently replicate.*—Genesis 18:14; Matthew 19:26.
Brampt
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken
And, sometimes, if we must be honest, the other guy's wife is just unattractive, and his kids aren't that bright.
Brampt, that is not very logical at all.
There is a huge, huge difference between a person, such as a pharoh, being shown to have historically existed and accepting the notion that thousands were fed with a few loaves and fish. One being shown as true does not equate that the rest is true.
Case in point, using that logic......The ruins of Troy have been discovered. Troy was mentioned in Iliad therefore Achillies really was invulnerable to all weapons except in his heel because his mother dipped him in the River Styx, and he really did kill a god in a fight in a river.
Rev 21:9-11 – And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God11and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal‐clear.
One of the only references in the bible of Christs wife is this passage, and it's not a human wife, since this is a heavenly vision, it referes to God celestial organization said to be Christs wife, yes celestial Jerusalem.
Now when he was on earth there's no reference to any human wife, or else the authors of the gospels and the rest of the New Testament would've included it!
Brampt,
I'm sorry but the book of revelations cannot ever be a reality since God and God only knows the relativisms of future's prospective and even then God is in awe of potential outcomes unforeseen! God's kingdom domains are upon all Life's innerness within a plain of spiritual realities of such smallness we for the most part turns against such a feasible truth.
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!" AND 1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
Therefore our bodies are but buildings created by God and God's kinds and all their sons and daughters to take up residencies upon our God built buildings we know of as being bodies..
@lionlylamb: You may need to rethink the wording in your post. How could you claim that God (who is omniscient) would be in awe of the future?
'Now when he was on earth there's no reference to any human wife, or else the authors of the gospels and the rest of the New Testament would've included it!'
false logic. how can you make that claim? There are plenty of books and such that never made the bible. You have to remember it was an extremely patriarchal time. It was a woman that was blamed for the fall of man dont forget.
God revealed to me the entire meaning of Revelations in a span of 3 months. When I was at my lowest. LionLam, you are wrong that it can't be a reality. We are commanded to know what Revelations means.
Who knows why people are giving
the gnostics equal or better authority than, you know, sources with some genuine historical connection to Jesus. That sort of thing wouldn't take anybody in if it were done with George Washington or Alexander the Great or Albert Einstein.
Except, you know, there is nothing from Jersus's contemporaries that exist....sorry.
I believe there to be a God above all of God's sons and daughters who are all manifested everywhere deeply inside all cellular cosmologies of living realms.
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
@lionly
Still posting the same pseudo intellectual idiocy I see.
hawaiiguest,
Why stop now? At least I have views for people to consider. And your views are,,,,?
the whole thing is a fairy tale. if you're christian - you're being taken in!
@lionly
Do you not realize that people probably don't consider your views? A few reasons being it's laced with so many synonyms that aren't part of common vernacular that your ideas are completely lost, or that you merely make statements without actually backing anything up, merely reiterating your posts over and over. Another reason would be that whenever called out on pseudo-intellectual postings, you go into overdrive.
Your posts aren't meant to convey any kind of point. Your posts are used by you to look smart and make yourself feel like you're above other people.
Bootyfunk,
"Taken in?" How so am I taken in? Please tell me for I have this deep need to know why me as a Christian is being taken in.
I've dedicated my life to loving God and others as I love myself.
Doh, they got me!
> part of common vernacular that your ideas are completely lost
People quoting Bible verses out of context was never very helpful for me. I think doing it to a non-believer is not productive. It may be considered kind of rude. I prefer to 'convert' people with acts of kindness.
because you're in a cult. all cult members have been duped.
dedicated your life to the bible? i doubt it. otherwise you would have to run out and murder a lot of people. g.ays, for instance. "thank god" christians aren't real christians these days.
hawaiiguest,
Many folks who respond to my posts are flakes! Some do understand my trying wordage yet there are many who dare believe my views and don't want to respond for fear of others like you who are but bigoted naysayers willing to froth and foment upon those willing to open their diary for all to read! People like you are disgusting revelers who would rather not consider another's wordage but desire to lay waste whatever any true believer pf God and all the sons and daughters of God, whose first born son since creation was first made did eventually take human form and be known to all as being Christ Jesus, the anointed!
I didn't mean that I have dedicated my life to The Bible. I've dedicated my life to doing what Jesus asks of me. He never said to worship The Bible.
I don't think of the Bible as an absolute prononcement. It isn’t a single book, it isn’t a single historical or philosophical or theological treatise. It has 66 books in it. It is more like a library.
>>g.ays, for instance
There is no mention of ho-mose.xuality in the four Gospels of the New Testament. The moral teachings of Jesus are not concerned with the subject.
I definitely have not been duped into joining a cult. I don't have very much money and a less than stellar past... a cult wouldn't want me.
@lionly
So your contention is that many people agree with you, but there afwaid of the big bad people who will actually challenge a view and ask for logic and reason? LOL wow your persecution complex just went into hyperactive mode didn't it?
Bootyfunk wrote on January 3, 2013 at 7:02 pm, "because you're in a cult. all cult members have been duped. dedicated your life to the bible? i doubt it. otherwise you would have to run out and murder a lot of people. g.ays, for instance. "thank god" christians aren't real christians these days."
If your post was to me shall I answer you?
Nah not posted to me! I am not in a cult unless you call a singular person a cult,,, Do we,,,? Christians (real ones) know rather well they are not sinless therefore cannot cast the first stone for to literally put to death anyone! Now putting to death the words of blasphemers goes a long way for anyone who is felt righteous enough to handle slackers of the written words of truth! I hold steadfast to but 4 or so verses of scripture and could care less about the written word histories and judgments and temptations and trials for we are all found guilty of the occasioned lack lustered wrongs and still Christ Jesus bought all our blackened souls even though the spiritual price are found quite high, nevertheless we will pay it when our dead bodies are relieved of its spirited souls and are all put upon God's judgment seat!
hawaiiguest,
Many Christians live their life upon the spoken word as is so written, "In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God" Many Christians living their life do not have the time to spend with those who rant and rave and tend to ridicule those who write of righteousness wordage. People like you are found guilty of persecuting those who hold high regards about Godly fidelities of things hidden and in vain trying to be told to others no matter the consequential outcomes where raunchy deniers of a person's faith becomes a cat's scratching post! Yes, I bleed due the blasphemers done deeds! Come the night, I lay down and die but come the next morning I rise up and am alive!
to those who say you follow jesus...
do you follow the 10 commandments? any OT? jesus himself said you cannot drop a letter from the OT if you want to get into heaven. or do you reject all but jesus' teachings?
@lionly
Wow, you are just completely and utterly insane aren't you?
@lionylamb
pls never answer my posts again. it looks like your keyboard threw up words and you posted them.
Han solo:
I wish other people of faith had your outlook towards gays; Westboro wouldn't have their hate on if they took your POV.
>>>to those who say you follow Jesus...
I can't follow the 10 commandments perfectly. But I try. I'm counting on the grace of God for forgiveness.
my point is, the 10 commandments are in the OT. it also says to kill all g.ays in the OT. how do you get around that? how do you follow some of the OT, but not the parts you don't find palatable?
han solo wrote:
I definitely have not been duped into joining a cult. I don't have very much money and a less than stellar past... a cult wouldn't want me.
no money? bad past? why would that disqualify you from joining a cult? cults will take anyone that's warm. or were you thinking of joining that posh cult that does credit checks?
Akira
Some others do have that outlook.
Some (not all) people used The Bible to support slavery and denying rights to women. No way you could convince some people that slavery was wrong. Or that women should be treated as equals.
I see the same thing with se.xual orientation.
I've also prayed on it, and have no indication that God wants me to shun ho.mos.exuals. Or not show the the same consideration that I do others.
What each and every denier and believer has failed to believe is 2Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
That is RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH you dipsticks short of an oil change!
bootyfunk
>>how do you follow some of the OT
Jesus says let him without sin throw the first stone. I've sinned. I can't kill a g.ay.
I'm sure somewhere in the OT I've done something that condemns me to death.
Jesus paid the price for the sins that I've committed (all win commit).
>>cult
If meeting with people once a week for worship and sometimes volunteering to do good in the community is joining a cult... then I joined a cult.
**all win commit – whoa, nope;
and will commit
You can square any circle. All you need is a bible and a little imagination. That is what make the bible so perfect: it is right because it is right. The perfect argument.
rather shows the bible was written by fallible men in a time when people thought the earth was flat. no divine inspiration, or god would have said, "slavery is evil. never ever own another human being. it is just about the worst kind of evil you can commit." but he didn't. instead, the bible has rules for beating your slaves and for selling your own daughter into slavery. you would think an all-loving, all-knowing god would have made the "no slavery" message clear. again, it shows the bible was written by men in a time of ignorance. when the church ruled, they called it "the dark ages" - not a coincidence.
The Bible isn't the end. Jesus didn't come into the world to be a Bible teacher directing us back into ancient text. He came to proclaim a realm beyond the Bible. The good news.
Candle
Except, you know, there is nothing from Jersus's contemporaries that exist....sorry.
Fortunately, Candle, that comment is incorrect. The essential elements of Jesus' fate – that we was cruficied under the authority of Pontius Pilate – is attested by Josephus (a first-century Jewish historians writing for Romans) and Suetonius, a Roman historian of the first century.
As generations go by and do pass onwards, the stands are ever to be moved. the egos rise up and fall downward never to find a common limb from which to perch upon till ones ending day. The 'powers that be' ever so was and always will so be never becoming as a oneness for the allness around everything is ever to be so shed against that which dare comes just and justly becoming but another just fruit. Every generation is generally minded with generalities of generalist moments to garnish and prune or wilt and dry up. My nearing the 5th generations' ending ride, keeps my thoughts resonating with devotional aptness regulated with dreamt dreams of daily sightedness around cosmological indifferences leading me onwards and inwards upon the atomized realms of inner cosmological orders supreme. Peace is all I hope for towards this world's ongoing rationed generalist folds and flocks and sheep and lambs. Nothing but Peace toward the allness of others forsakenness.
Love Let Us.
Love Lettuce.
G.O.D.
God's Oldest Dreamer
come out of shell and see truth yourself, shell fish.
LL..Only you know what you are trying to say. If you translate it into a human language you may get your point across.
Name of son of blessed Mary was Easu, anointed one, from Hebrew word Anyat, blessing from higher authority, he was a blessing for Hebrew Israelite, denied by hindu Jew's, filthy secular s. hinduism fabrication called Jesus, the moon shiner has nothing to do with him, but a hind fabrication to justify hindu Mithra ism pagan savior ism, religion of hindu pagan Roman's at time to be god's of humanity.
Hi Hinudu bot. I see your therapy isn't going too well, and you're still at it.
there is no other truth but truth absolute, and truth absolute is LORD AND GOD OF THE WORLD.
Know your place, before selecting place of son of blessed Mary in your hinduism, ignorance.
WHAT ARE HUMAN
Human are spirits in state of physical experience, not to be identified by their physical appearance but by their way, only visible in understanding to learn one’s intentions and essence of his or her path. State of their own choice in Hinduism, in denial of fact, truth absolute Allah, as programmed in human ruh, spirit with gift of choice in a limited capacity, or Abdullah, in subordination of truth absolute Allah, source of human spirit, depending on one’s self ability to overcome his soul, desire, NAFS, worshiped as gode’s by hindu’s in hindrance to truth absolute Allah, the merciful, ordained as essence of human by pot head hindu sanatan’s, ignorant secular goon man god’s of hindu’s, ignorant human, beside human physics, race, color and creed to be the most important part of being human by any means, foundation of Hinduism racism as faith. Foundation, not being the truth, but wisdom, known as gods Isis in hindu dark ages and worshipped as Kumari, represented as third eye on hindu female fore head. Hinduism, an illegality without any limits spewed in denial of truth absolute, essence of existence to deny accountability for their Hinduism, illegality.
Human are blessed with eye’s, but contrary to popular belief in hind, ignorance, human have no capacity to see things physically but only through spirituality, enshrined in program of his or her ruh, spirit. Eyes are nothing more than a medium, such as a scanner, a medium for a processor to recognize matter already programmed in data base, in human case, the brain. Quantified as Noor, light, or recognition to be alive or functional.
By quantum physics, everything is dependent on dark matter or program, otherwise known as Spirit, truth of human to be in physical form. Spirit, programs appears in male body after reaching age of puberty by will of Allah, certain matter from blood of man is attracted to spirit on 125 volts. produced by function of human body, after attachment of matter to spirit, matter takes form of a sperm, a living being, transferred to woman's body to grow into human form according to spirit, program, otherwise known as seeded, not physically but spiritually way programmed. Woman has no other function in human life but to mother a child, a greatest service, man cannot do without, reason for a children to carry their fathers name. Heritage of person is physically attached to man's linage, not a woman.
January 3, 2013 at 3:45 pm | Report abuse | Reply
Canada
Does God build nations? does he make believers succeed in their righteous doings? does God help the poor, and will he lift them up high? will he make the an example for the other nations of the world? do you find this true of allah? Why then is it that the nations who've credited Christian teachings and morals as a basis of law have a foundation of stone, while the nations that had the 'second say' have foundations of clay and mud? Satan has heard the truth, and has used these nations to push his most deceitful plan. My God, the God of Israel and indeed the world has made Israel the light within and sorrounded by the nations of a lie.
January 3, 2013 at 3:59 pm | Report abuse |
Mohammad A Dar
"...after attachment of matter to spirit, matter takes form of a sperm, a living being.."
is it safe to assume you are against use of contra ceptives?
January 3, 2013 at 4:05 pm | Report abuse |
there is no other truth but truth absolute, and truth absolute is LORD AND GOD OF THE WORLD.
Seed is source of grown up human, no seed, no crop, kill a sperm, it kill a human, no different. Absent, absent, absent.
January 3, 2013 at 4:14 pm | Report abuse |
Pete
Really Stupid Person, you also need an egg to make a life. If all you have is sperm nothing will happen.
January 3, 2013 at 4:59 pm | Report abuse |
there is no other truth but truth absolute, and truth absolute is LORD AND GOD OF THE WORLD.
Egg is muted, sperm is alive, egg is nothing more than a medium for a sperm to grow into a form, as it is programmed, hindu, ignorant, no sperm, no human.
January 3, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Report abuse |
@Seyedibar – Ah, just like trying to prove it isn't eh? So, let me ask you, do you love your mom (or anyone that you profess to love)? OK. Prove it. Ding ding ding....there's your answer. You can't. If you try to, I can be just as good as the next person shooting holes in it. It's faith dude. It isn't blind. It took me a loooong time to get closer to God, just like any relationship. But I never shut it out completely. Don't focus on crazy Christians who give Christ a bad name. Focus on Christ himself...that's the key. God Bless you. I actually have enjoyed this but have to run. Write what you must. Peace.
i focussed on jesus christ and the harder i looked, the more undeniable it seemed that he was an obnoxious jackass who was full of shit................
Emotions are caused by brain chemicals, not by some imaginary being who only does the stuff you expect him to do.
I can prove I have emotions. It's called medical science. We can scan the brain and see the activity therein.
What sort of idiot thinks that "love" is proof of anything but that there are brain chemicals and brain structure that creates that emotion?
Oh, the idiot's name is Barney. Good name for a real stupid fella. I can prove there are no gods using science.
You can't prove your god exists in any way, shape, or form other than just lying about it or describing your schizoid delusions in detail including all your cognitive biases you use to "prove it to yourself".
Barney, there are undoubtedly many good people who believe in God, but there are also many good people who do not worship God. So, just looking at the examples of good Christians proves nothing about the actual existence of God. All the evidence actually suggests is that many people are basically good no matter what they "believe" in and, sometimes, in spite of what they believe in.
Barney”So, let me ask you, do you love your mom (or anyone that you profess to love)? OK. Prove it. Ding ding ding....there's your answer. You can't. “
A persons physical responses to someone they love can be measured (changes in respiration rate, heart rate, galvanic skin response, eye movements, eye blinks…) when they are shown a picture of the loved one. Not proof; but, very strong evidence. Proofs only exist in mathematics, everything else is based on evidence
Where is any measurable evidence that you’re god exists
I looked for Jesus in a hispanic part of town, and found lots of them.
Is it possible that there was more than one man named Jesus, and we could be talking about someone else?
Jesus was a very common name in that time.
Not only that. Google Simon Of Perea. Messiahs rising from the dead were a dime a dozen.
Please see the documentary movie "Life of Brian" for more info.
My thoughts exactly. There were lots of Jesus'.
the whole jesus thing is a myth.... he never existed.....
Yet non-Christian sources of the 1st and 2nd centuries mention him. Even if you don't believe his divinity, which a great many intellectuals don't, you can at least see that there was an historical figure of Jesus. But if multiple sources aren't good enough for you, then I guess there is no convincing you to change your mind away from your blind assertions.
Maybe so, maybe not... doesn't change anything.
Supposedly the Roman's kept records of his life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
There is such an astonishing amount of disinformation, I wasn't clear on that point either.
The Christian myth makes sense to me. It provides a world that’s as orderly and stable to me as the Greek myths did for the Greeks and the Romans did for the Romans. I don’t live in a dark world. I don’t live in the sense that everything is going to go up in flames, and we’re all destined and doomed, and terrible things are happening.
But I do believe we live in what the scriptures refer to as a fallen world. Christian theology speaks of it as a world that has not achieved its ideals. And we are struggling, and moving towards them, and trying to manage as best we can. And certain ideas and ideals have been set before us. The person of Jesus Christ, for me, is such an idea and an ideal.
I believe He really existed, but that doesn’t diminish the ideological power or the sense of imagination that is employed. And I aspire to live my life in the light of what I understand that truth to be – a truth which I have received through the wisdom of thousands of other smarter and cleverer people who existed before me. I admit to being a child of the Western Christian experience, and I embrace it. I’m not ashamed of it. I’m not embarrassed by it. And I don’t deny my dependency upon it. It’s the vocabulary with which I work.
– Rev. Peter Gomes
Every one of the non-Christian sources have been debunked. So sad. Too bad.
Even if I concede everything that the Bible says about his life: that he existed, legitimately performed all of those miracles, died for 3 days and rose to the sky... that still doesn't prove he is the son of a god. A Bronze Age David Blaine, perhaps, but not the son of a god.
the non-christian sources are not very reliable. josephus also talked about hercules, the son of zeus - did he exist too? there is no reliable evidence for jesus. in fact, how do you explain all the stories plagiarized to make up the jesus myth?
Not one tenured historian agrees with you dean. Not one.