home
RSS
My Take: Jesus was a dirty, dirty God
January 5th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

My Take: Jesus was a dirty, dirty God

Editor’s note: Johnnie Moore is the author of Dirty God (#DirtyGod). He is a professor of religion and vice president at Liberty University. Keep track of him @johnnieM .

By Johnnie Moore, Special to CNN

(CNN) - Jesus was a lot more like you than you think, and a lot less clean cut than this iconic image of him that floats around culture.

You know the image. It’s the one where Jesus is walking like he’s floating in robes of pristine white followed by birds singing some holy little ditty. He’s polished, manicured, and clearly – God.

But despite the Christian belief that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, Jesus was a rather dirty God.

He was the “earthly” son of a carpenter, and life in the first-century was both more lurid and unfinished than our collective religious memory seems to recall.

To that end, I suggested recently to several astounded colleagues of mine that Jesus actually had to go to the bathroom, perhaps even on the side of the road between Capernaum and Jerusalem.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

What tipped them over the edge was when I insinuated that Jesus, like almost every other human being living in the rural world in that time, might have even had dysentery on an occasion or two.

Someone said, “You mean that Jesus might have had severe diarrhea?”

“Yep,” I replied, “That’s exactly what I mean.”

It seems like an obvious statement if you believe that Jesus was “fully God” and “fully man” (as most evangelicals believe and call the Incarnation), but to some of us it seems in the least, inappropriate, and at the most, sacrilege, to imagine Jesus in this way. We might believe that God was also man, but we picture him with an ever-present halo over his head.

But, actually, the Jesus of the Bible was more human than most people are conditioned to think.

I call this the dirty side of Jesus. He was grittier, and a lot more like us than maybe we believe, and that’s one of the reasons why so many thousands of people followed him so quickly.

They could relate to him.

He was the teacher from a small town who knew and understood the economic insecurity that was common in the first century. Times must have been rather tough for Jesus at points in his life, for he even spoke of being homeless, having to sleep on the ground with no roof over his head.

He also knew what it was like to have his message rejected and how it felt to be misunderstood. Jesus was regarded with such little significance in his hometown that one of his critics once remarked sardonically, “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?” Jesus eventually had to move to different city (Capernaum) because his teachings so infuriated the people living in his hometown that they drove him out of Nazareth and even tried to throw him off a cliff.

'Jesus Wife' fragment gets more testing, delays article

The real Jesus had dirt underneath his fingernails and calluses on his hands. He probably smelled badly from sweating profusely in the Judean sun on his long hikes to Jerusalem, and Jesus was, without a doubt, rumored to be a hypocrite or absolutely mad for all the time he spent with prostitutes and those afflicted with leprosy.

Not exactly have a clean-cut image.

He had a rather shady reputation.

Some people thought he was a revolutionary. The religious leaders called him a heretic, and others even accused him of being a drunkard and a glutton - in no small part because of the vagabond group of disciples he had with him. No serious religious leader of his day would have ever recruited such people.

For his core 12 disciples, Jesus included a tough-as-nails, bombastic fisherman (Peter), a chief tax collector named Matthew (the most hated popular figure of the time), an eventual traitor who was stealing money out of the offering bucket (Judas), a prolific doubter (Thomas), two jocks nicknamed the “Sons of Thunder” (James and John) and Simon the Zealot, a member of a radical political party which believed in using violence to kick out the Romans.

Jesus was sarcastic, too.

He often snapped back at the Pharisees with a tone fit for late-night television, and in a terribly embarrassing moment for all those around him, Jesus even called these respected religious teachers “snakes” that were probably sons of “Satan.”

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

That’s not exactly the behavior of a sweet, self-help teacher with a halo over his head.

It’s the behavior of a frustrated man who might also be divine, but sure knows how it feels for annoying people to get under his skin.

Christians believe that Jesus chose to be born fully human, too, but why?

Lots of theologians have laid out opinions over the centuries, and in their opining they have tried once again to hijack Jesus’ humanity by defining it in philosophical terms. I believe it’s simpler than the philosophy and church councils and centuries of argument.

The brilliance of Christianity is the image of a God, named Jesus, arrived with dirty hands.

Jesus came in a time period when Greco-Roman gods were housed in gigantic temples and portrayed with superhuman powers and with superhuman physiques. Gods were believed to be far away from people on their mountains or hemmed up in their sanctuaries.

Jesus arrived in defiance of this prevailing imagery.

Jesus didn’t come flinging lightning bolts from a mountaintop, or playing politics in Rome. He came to live in a typical Middle Eastern village called Nazareth that was home to a couple hundred typical people. He didn’t decide to brandish his power, but to spend most of his time with the powerless and disenfranchised. And when he started a religious movement that reshaped history, he did it in the most profound and anticlimatic way:

He let himself be killed, and then he busted open a tomb.

In Jesus we meet a Savior who understood the desire to sleep just a few more hours, and who had to control his temper sometimes. In Jesus we find a God we can relate to because he chose to relate to us.

He was the God who became dirty so that the world’s souls might be made clean.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Johnnie Moore.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Jesus

soundoff (7,741 Responses)
  1. Andrew

    what is the point of this article, I think anyone at that age in time would not have the greatest hygiene

    February 26, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
  2. Li'el

    Agree with the writer of this article, Jesus Christ reshaped history. History has been divided into two eras 🙂

    February 26, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • OTOH

      Li'el,
      " History has been divided into two eras [by "Jesus"] "

      Yes, but do you know why?

      The B.C./A.D. dating system was the brainchild of a monk named Dionysius in the 6th century.

      The Church was very powerful in those days and controlled many aspects of society, including politics, economics, literature and history-writing... still, his dating system took hundreds of years (nearly 1000) to be inst-ituted world-wide as a practical measure for standard dating. Many cultures still keep their ancient calendars going on the side.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • sam stone

      it's more like the mythology around jesus christ that has changed history more than the person itself. hardly the first nor the last troublemaker to be whacked by the romans

      February 27, 2013 at 4:58 am |
  3. Science

    Facts only

    Dover Trial Transcripts

    Below are the complete transcripts from the Dover Trial. Thanks to our friends at the National Center for Science Education for helping us fill in the missing transcripts.

    http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm

    February 26, 2013 at 9:51 am |
  4. Doobs

    Being good because a child is afraid of an imaginary being sending them to be tortured forever does not make your child good (which is what a parent wants), it makes them a non-thinking sheep. Doing good for good reasons is always preferable, and easily obtainable. By the way, it’s not “training”, it’s teaching, guiding, supporting, and loving. What you’re talking about is immoral and damaging.

    If you disagree, or have any thoughts on it, then leave a comment
    You are a moron and a bad parent

    February 26, 2013 at 4:02 am |
    • Science

      Morning Doobs

      You nailed it , it starts at home PARENTS !

      Peace

      February 26, 2013 at 5:51 am |
    • Science

      Yoy might enoy this Doobs

      Stem cells, old GW did not like them.!

      Liver Stem Cells Grown in Cu-lture, Transplanted

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130225153130.htm

      Peace

      February 26, 2013 at 8:33 am |
    • Doobs

      Many have said God is commanding on what not to do and a bad parent. As a parent dont you warn your children of stuff that will hurt them? Or do you consider this demanding? Do you punish them for not listening or do you let them go on hurting themselves in decsions that will harm them?. God gave each of us a free will and we are His children and we decide what to do and what not to do. He warns us tell us the right path and even puts our own sense of right and wrong in us. But will never condemn us for making the wrong decision, He only says ask for forgiveness and come back to me. If our kids run afoul of the laws they will be punished but is that not being a good parent or the kids decision? Do you throw them out or take them back, forgive them and go on. God is the best parent and teaches us tolerance for our children because no matter how many time the children of Israel sinned He still took them back.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:33 am |
    • ?

      Why are two diametrically opposed people both posting under the name @Doobs?

      February 26, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Doobs

      Hey Fake Doobs,

      Isn't stealing a screen name and bearing false witness a sin?

      Burn, baby, burn.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:07 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ ?

      Because some christian stole my screen name and is posting under it. I worship no gods and apparently pissed off someone by pointing out the many contradictions in their bible book.

      Fake Doobs is a liar and a thief.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Doobs

      alot of that has been going on lately you know you hit the bullseye when you find a copycat.

      Peace

      February 26, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Science

      I consider it an honor, as well as pretty freakin' funny, when a christian steals my screen name. It shows once again that they aren't above lying to promote their cause.

      Then they just confess it. Get out of jail free.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Science

      @Doobs

      Yea it is funny as hell !

      Peace

      February 27, 2013 at 7:44 am |
  5. Doobs

    Php 1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
    Php 1:16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
    Php 1:17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
    Php 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
    Php 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

    February 26, 2013 at 3:55 am |
    • Doobs

      Burn, fake Doobs, burn for stealing.

      Burn for bearing false witness.

      You made baby Jeebus cry.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
  6. Compassionate Cosette

    Glad to worship a loving God.

    February 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • Doobs

      He's so loving that he drowned every man, woman, child and animal on the face of the earth.

      He's so loving that he orders his followers to kill all the men, married women and children in cities they conquered, but told them to take the unmarried girls for themselves.

      He's so loving that he made us imperfect, then condemns us to eternal torture if we don't believe in his zombified "son" who is really him, born of a young woman he raped.

      So loving.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:38 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      If you take a moment to know God and invite him into your heart today you will realize that God is loving. Do you know him personally to say that he is not a loving God?

      February 25, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      It's always funny to see the religious ignore what their own bible says when it's inconvenient.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • End Religion

      No one can know your god, Cosette. He's a figment of your imagination.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      It is not an imagination, once you accept him as your personal savior you will realize it is real.
      You know that you know that you know he is real. It is a conviction!

      February 25, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      LOL yes Cosette, because circular logic and confirmatory bias is such a good thing. So pathetic.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • Pete

      many of the atheists posting are former xtians or ministers who now know your god doesn't exist and your religion is a myth.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • Doobs

      I was a catholic for 30 years and a fundamental born again christian for another 20 years. I believed fervently and wanted to have a close relationship with god. I've studied the bible in several languages. Is that good enough for you, or was I "never really a christian" if I no longer buy the myth of a "loving god" who murders his creations whenever he has a tantrum?

      Many of the atheists, agnostics and nonbelievers here are former believers.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • the AnViL

      Compassionate Cosette spittled: "If you take a moment to know God and invite him into your heart today you will realize that God is loving."

      you cannot know "god" personally – as "god" is flatly fictional.

      asserting that you know "god" personally is a dishonest, disingenuous, and delusional.

      based entirely on the scribblings in the bible – if one were to assess the nature of the imaginary god of abraham – the only conclusion anyone of sound reason can reach is – the god of abraham is not loving. to put it bluntly – in the words of richard dawkins -

      "“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

      and to this day – no one's ever said it better.
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      zing!

      February 25, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
    • End Religion

      Cozy, you realize you're displaying the reasoning ability of a 5 year old?

      February 25, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      I wish I could reason faith with you. I cannot, faith is a conviction, it is real. God is real for those who believe in him. I feel glad for the grace I have received in knowing him.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:53 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette's Translator

      *sticks fingers in ears*

      I can't hear you! I can't hear you!

      February 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • Pete

      "I wish I could reason faith with you. I cannot, faith is a conviction,"

      No, faith is the assurance of things hoped for.

      February 25, 2013 at 6:56 pm |
    • Lawrence

      "I wish I could reason faith with you"

      The reason you never will is because faith is a blind, unquestioning attitude that leads a person to accept the most ridiculous things either without evidence, or in spite of all the evidence.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
    • fred

      End Religion
      God exists and God has revealed Himself through creation. In the case of the Bible we see the revelation of God through the Hebrew writers of old and the writers from the days of Jesus. Your denial of these personal experiences then and now simply reflects your personal revelation of God. God has created you and the believers with everyone heading down the way of life.
      In the event there is no God nothing changes does it from your mindset, right? If there is a God nothing changes in our observable world for the believer either, right? Both are acting according to their beliefs.
      What you believe does not change the reality of God who simply is. That is an absolute truth.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      I understand some of you were former believers, but the faith I am talking about is a relationship with Jesus Christ. There may be moments of doubt/anxiety and it is okay. The key is keep the focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and not let the cares of the world distract you from your trust in him.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
    • Frank

      "What you believe does not change the reality of God who simply is. That is an absolute truth."

      No it's not unless you are going to offer proof of your God to show this truth, but there is no proof of your God.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      translation of fred:

      "blah blah blah bible, blah blah circular logic, blah blah I'm right because I say so".

      @Cosette
      And how would one distinguish your faith between the faith of a Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Muslim, or any other faith based view?

      February 25, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • Pete

      "I understand some of you were former believers, but the faith I am talking about is a relationship with Jesus Christ."

      J C is not a god, you are worshiping an idol and a myth. Now have faith in Santa Claus because you can have a relationship with him too.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • fred

      Pete
      Anyone who has personally experienced God does not forget that experience. It is a life changing experience. Those you claim to be X christian or X ministers were not touched by God or if they were they will not be lost forever.
      Part of the Christian faith is the belief that it is God who is faithful and worthy of trust not us or religion.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      I am not sure how to articulate this, but I will try my best. You require proof and that proof is available when you start out in faith. For some people the transformation is radical and they have seen God before they believed in him like Saul of Tarsus , C.S Lewis etc.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Pete

      "Anyone who has personally experienced God does not forget that experience. It is a life changing experience"

      Anyone who goes on a retreat and meditates for a week can have the same life changing experience. It has nothing to do with your god. It has to do with gaining self confidence in yourself while your brain releases a chemical reaction to make you feel better. People get addicted to that feeling and call it a god, but it's not. It's you believing in yourself for once and doing something about it.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      Catholic/Protestant/Baptist/Lutheran all worship Jesus Christ. As far as the other religions, I have trust in my savior and know who he is , I did not have to look elsewhere to know who my God is.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • fred

      Frank
      Jesus Himself refused to offer proof to the Sanhedrin when they demanded it. There is no proof you would accept that could come from man. Jesus said blessed are those who believe and have not seen.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Cosette

      And how would one distinguish your faith between the faith of a Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Muslim, or any other faith based view?

      February 25, 2013 at 7:13 pm |
    • OTOH

      Compassionate Cosette,

      I wonder, does the Blessed Mother, Mary, appear to you too, like she allegedly does to many folks?

      February 25, 2013 at 7:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      What fred is trying to say is that you must obey or else his sky daddy gonna get you. No questions, no thoughts, just robotic obedience and srevility because his god said so.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • fred

      Pete
      I could bring you with me on a retreat where we pray and meditate on the Divine Word of God all day long. You still would only see God if you approach God as He is not as you demand.
      In one sense you are correct in that people will change whenever they change their belief. I could take you to a weight loss clinic and you may look great for while. Unless you make change in your core belief it is not a new you just a current desire.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • Compassionate Cosette

      HG, I have found my savior in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe him to be God and therefore do not look outside of Jesus Christ.
      People come to the saving knowledge in Christ and accept him everyday who am I to judge how people come to accept Jesus Christ by whatever vision that God chose to reveal himself to them.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      No robot, no big ugly master just a simple offer from God to experience His purpose for existence.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Cosette

      That in no way addressed what I asked, but I wasn't expecting you to actually address it.

      @fred

      No matter how many times you say it's an "offer", it boils down to "obey or else". Your god is a mobster saying "Nice soul ya got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it". Your constant rewriting of so prevalent a concept within your own doctrine continues to show, as it does everyday, how pathetic you are.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:26 pm |
    • Pete

      "You still would only see God if you approach God as He is not as you demand.
      In one sense you are correct in that people will change whenever they change their belief. I could take you to a weight loss clinic and you may look great for while. Unless you make change in your core belief it is not a new you just a current desire."

      You can't make a demand of something that doesn't exist. No, it's not a current desire; it's breaking of a habit and forming a new one. It's why alcoholics always find something else to be addicted too they have to form a new habit. People believe in a god to make themselves believe better and help them form new habits in their life, but it doesn't mean that god is real; it just means you are forming new habits. Then when you factor in the chemical reactions happening in your brain you become addicted to it. It's why people who meditate get addicted to that habit. That is not a proof of a god.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:26 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ fred

      Jesus Himself refused to offer proof to the Sanhedrin when they demanded it.

      Jesus, if he existed and refused to offer proof of his divinity, did so for one reason only. He had none.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
    • End Religion

      @fred: "God exists and God has revealed Himself through creation."

      God does not exist or you'd be able to provide empirical evidence. You cannot. If your god has revealed himself through creation then we would see this revealed through evidence, which we do not.

      ***
      "In the case of the Bible we see the revelation of God through the Hebrew writers of old and the writers from the days of Jesus."

      We do not see evidence of god in anyone's writing. These are simply the ramblings of deluded believers. There is not one credible eyewitness to any event in Jesus' life or to Jesus himself. This goes beyond belief and you're simply repeating lies at this point.

      ***
      "Your denial of these personal experiences then and now simply reflects your personal revelation of God."

      I'm pretty confident these believers had experiences, I'm just certain they had nothing to do with your god. it's just ignorance dressed up as faith.

      ***
      "God has created you and the believers with everyone heading down the way of life."

      No god created me, my parents did.

      ***
      "What you believe does not change the reality of God who simply is. That is an absolute truth."

      Not a truth. You obviously don't understand the definition and can't be trusted to use it. On behalf of all English-speaking people in the world, we have decided to ask you to never use the word "truth" again as you do not understand it and show no capability in learning its definition.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:28 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Consider that the god you imagine is certainly not any revelation of God that we see in the Bible. If there is such a god as you claim then I would agree with you that there is no God. If God was as you describe then evil is Lord. There have been cults over the years that have held such beliefs but they are few.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
    • Hmmm

      Anyone else notice Chad stopped posting after being proven wrong and now freds started. 😉

      February 25, 2013 at 7:36 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Cosette

      How did you learn about Jesus? Did you grow up in a christian home? That's how the vast majority of christians "become" christians, they are indoctrinated from infancy.

      If you had been born in Iran, you'd have a "relationship" with Allah.

      The fact that you've never even wanted to learn about any religion other than your own is really a shame. There's no downside to education.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
    • fred

      Pete
      What difference it really make to a believer if there is no God? A believer does not have faith in order to get something from God. Even Jesus said you have already received what you wanted. What we receive is life from the Holy Spirit now that continues to Grow. It is from God nothing that we can earn. We are different suddenly because we simply are transformed. If nothing waits in the afterlife we have lived out our lives the best we knew how.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:42 pm |
    • Pete

      " A believer does not have faith in order to get something from God."

      That's a lie, you are trying to get eternal life from your god and not burn in hell for eternity. Yup. Your religion breeds intolerance and hatred which is why it's not welcomed.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
    • Science

      Fred is like Chad, they both poke holes in thier own soup !

      Peace
      Fred
      Nature works

      Particle Physics Research Sheds New Light On Possible 'Fifth Force of Nature'

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130221192736.htm

      February 25, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
    • Pete

      " If nothing waits in the afterlife we have lived out our lives the best we knew how."

      That's not true either, there are many instances in our history that have shown the intolerance, hatred and evil your religion has done to our society.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:46 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Fred

      Anyone who has personally experienced God does not forget that experience. It is a life changing experience. Those you claim to be X christian or X ministers were not touched by God or if they were they will not be lost forever.

      Fred drags out the old No True Scotsman schtick. And proxy threats.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You say that over and over, yet you never actually address anything. The only ones who agree with you are those that think the god of the bible is necessarily good no matter what. It's a pathetic ad hoc attempt to rewrite what the bible means to appeal to everyone now that Christianity has lost its stranglehold on most peoples instinctual fears of death and the unknown.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • fred

      Doobs
      Actually, Jesus told them they were given the sign which was the sign of Jonah. They did not believe this and they actually did not believe Moses and the Prophets but hung onto their religion which had become corrupt. They were full of themselves and thrived off the power of their priestly demeanor.
      No, sign would have been acceptable just as today atheists would think it was some trick or magic then in a short time would make excuses for what they thought they saw.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • Pete

      "No, sign would have been acceptable just as today atheists would think it was some trick or magic then in a short time would make excuses for what they thought they saw."

      And Christians dismiss all the facts when shown that the bible is just a bunch of myths, literary genre and not based on actual historical facts or science.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:51 pm |
    • Hmmmmm

      Yup, fred is Chad because this person loves to debate regardless of facts.

      February 25, 2013 at 7:53 pm |
    • fred

      End Religion
      We cannot argue proof that complies with scientific method because we are not dealing with created matter. Perhaps an example would help. I cannot measure God regardless of what tools you can conceive. God is infinite, eternal, self existent, Omniscience, Omnipresent etc. all at the same moment yet timeless. Our science is constrained by our space and time just as we are so it is not possible.
      God is in everything you have not even thought of yet or have the capacity to think about. How can anyone prove any of that?
      What we have is the history of Gods revelation through creation. In short the composite of everything we know up to this point awe, wonder beauty etc. As to man each has a knowledge of God based upon life experiences. Some were touched personally and speak of miracles others see nothing. God simply is which means God is in the miracle and in the nothing.
      Consider that if God elected not to create then God would still exist but hidden in the abyss of an eternal void

      February 25, 2013 at 8:02 pm |
    • fred

      Pete
      "That's a lie, you are trying to get eternal life from your god and not burn in hell for eternity. Yup. Your religion breeds intolerance and hatred which is why it's not welcomed."
      If I was just trying to get eternal life and not burn my faith is useless.
      Intolerance and hatred are sin so those that practice this thought or action are acting like the Sanhedrin that crucified Christ.

      We will not be welcomed unless we begin to act in a manner worthy of God that reflects God Glory.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I am not rewriting the Bible. The Bible was written by people who saw God as their personal redeemer that was going to take them to a wonderful place. These people were oppressed and sava-ged by one culture after another and their God offered hope and a reason for the evil that came upon them. The writing in the Bible is the old graphic symbolic style that revealed a hard picture.
      We cannot cut and paste. The revelation of God in that Bible continues through Christ where we see the overall picture. That picture is one where only God could possible judge. Why? God is perfect goodness and love in infinite amount. God is just and fair to an infinite degree. Both attributes are exacted at the same moment to separate good and evil as it was purposed from the beginning.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Still saying the same bullshit while no addressing anything at all.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • Science

      Fred

      Adam poked himself hard with his bone to create Eve.

      And on the 6th day god took a __________. fill in the plank Fred.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • fred

      Pete
      “Christians dismiss all the facts when shown that the bible is just a bunch of myths, literary genre and not based on actual historical facts or science”
      =>the good news is that some intelligent Christians wade through this stuff from the Christian perspective just as intelligent skeptics wade through this stuff with their perspective. Both camps have their fundies. You can read the Bible as fact, allegory or a story about a people and their concept of God over time. If you ask God to reveal the truth before you read it and remain open you can get a clear picture.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Oh look, it's the Robert approach of confirmatory bias bullshit.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And let me just co-opt fred's next point, which is that I read the bible with the assumption it wasn't true so I was doing the same thing.
      I will then point out that I first read the bible in it's entirety as a christian to gain a better understanding of the word, and to be able to defend my faith like 1 Peter 3:15 says.
      Then fred will either:
      1) Disappear
      2) Reassert his position and not address my post.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
    • fred

      Science
      On the 6th day God was finished with his creating.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I actually did address all of your points directed at me. What did I miss?

      February 25, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You address nothing because all you ever say is "God is how I say he is according to my arbitrary interpretation of the bible because I like it and I say so". It's truly pathetic. You want to know what you haven't addressed? Everything.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:46 pm |
    • Science

      Fred

      Well at least you filled in the blank.

      The talking snake does not work Fred

      Peace

      February 25, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • End Religion

      fred describes Christianity: "...[they] hung onto their religion which had become corrupt. They were full of themselves and thrived off the power of their priestly demeanor."

      February 25, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “What fred is trying to say is that you must obey or else his sky daddy gonna get you. No questions, no thoughts, just robotic obedience and srevility because his god said so.
      =>No, if you read my responses they were direct and to the point. The response was based on the complete revelation of God and the attributes of God. The god you keep throwing out there is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob right up through to the God Saul of Tarsus saw to begin the Christian faith.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:53 pm |
    • End Religion

      @fred: "What we have is the history of Gods revelation through creation."

      Except of course god doesn't exist and didn't create anything. God therefore hasn't been revealed. If he had been, you'd have proof. You don't.

      February 25, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • Science

      Education works too Fred

      How Predictable Is Evolution?

      Feb. 19, 2013 — Understanding how and why diversification occurs is important for understanding why there are so many species on Earth. In a new study published on 19 February in the open access journal PLOS Biology, researchers show that similar - or even identical - mutations can occur during diversification in completely separate populations of E. coli evolving in different environments over more than 1000 generations. Evolution, therefore, can be surprisingly predictable.

      peace

      February 25, 2013 at 9:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And as I said, you say that over and over, yet you can only assert that, and not actually demonstrate that even within the confines of the bible. Saying it over and over doesn't make you right, it just makes you our poster child for the dangers of religion to the mind.
      For instance, there is no contextual support for the concept that in the Adam and Eve story, god was talking about a spiritual death when he said not to eat from the fruit. This would make god a liar, and also supports the "obey or else" characterization. You must re-spin this to continue to make your point, even though there is no support.

      Now, this supports my points of god being mean, as well as my point that you are willing to rewrite the bible to fit yourself.

      February 25, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      you are 100% correct as I now evoke hawaii principle #1 and disapear. Actually, I am off to a meeting and take close look at Adam and Eve when I return.

      February 25, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • Science

      Facts Fred Good read you will learn something if you read the legal transcripts

      Dover Trial Transcripts

      Below are the complete transcripts from the Dover Trial. Thanks to our friends at the National Center for Science Education for helping us fill in the missing transcripts.

      http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm

      Peace

      February 25, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • fred

      Science
      I am as predictible as evolution and need to leave for while. You can call me fred of the gaps as no one understands what happened during the gap.

      February 25, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
    • clarity

      Are the gaps those places where John's triangles are not quite fully locked? Those triangles failed to seal in the freshness – I want my Saran wrap back.

      February 25, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • David B

      yea this wonderful god of yours has also set up a system where good people get punished and bad people get rewarded... what a jerk!!!

      February 25, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
    • Pete

      "If I was just trying to get eternal life and not burn my faith is useless.

      Ok, and here I thought lying was a sin.

      February 25, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      "yea this wonderful god of yours has also set up a system where good people get punished and bad people get rewarded... what a jerk!!!"

      =>I am familiar with God (God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Christ who was the full representation of God) and that does fit any possible notion of God. Which god did you have in mind?

      February 26, 2013 at 12:29 am |
    • fred

      clarity
      I really did try and understand John's triangles, If you figured it out let me know.

      February 26, 2013 at 12:32 am |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “For instance, there is no contextual support for the concept that in the Adam and Eve story, god was talking about a spiritual death when he said not to eat from the fruit”
      =>They were separated from God the moment they ate from the tree. They hid from God. It is called the original sin. Sin separates us from God. God is not flesh God is spirit. It was a spiritual death. It was also a physical death as they became mortal at that point with all the pain etc. that comes with mortality. This can be noted because they were blocked from touching the tree of life that was also in the garden at this point.

      “ This would make god a liar”
      =>no, spiritual death was instant and physical death came later. Mortality is part of being mortal. The Hebrew translation for the word is die and dying combined.

      “ and also supports the "obey or else" characterization”
      =>the choice was to stay in union with God dependent on God where death, pain and mortality were not in effect. You do not stay with the person you love because you are obedient or else to some demand. Is that how you characterize the person closest to you? But if you walk away and reject them you are responsible not the person you abandoned that provides for you.

      “Now, this supports my points of god being mean,”
      =>ok, guess I need some help with this. If I give you warm house in the Arctic stocked with food and say do not leave here till spring when the ice opens. You decide you can make it your own way and take off across the frozen land in dead of winter. How am I the mean one?

      “ as well as my point that you are willing to rewrite the bible to fit yourself”
      =>This is common knowledge about the how sin separates us from God not my rewrite.

      February 26, 2013 at 1:23 am |
    • Science

      Fred

      Adam had to poke himself hard with his own bone to create Eve

      February 26, 2013 at 5:42 am |
    • David B

      uhhh thats a very accurate representation of this fictional character. he/they reward based on belief.
      john 3:16 romans 10:9 john 14:6
      if we were to rank all the humans from 1 to 7 billion,the best human being on this planet could be punished for not believing and human # 5 billion get rewarded (though heaven would be no reward for me)

      sorry that you don't know this god as well as you thought, maybe reread that book of fables, it will help you snap out of your deluded state

      February 26, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • Duh

      " If I give you warm house in the Arctic stocked with food and say do not leave here till spring when the ice opens. You decide you can make it your own way and take off across the frozen land in dead of winter. How am I the mean one?"

      Because you put him there in the first place. Duh!

      February 26, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • fred

      duh
      How else would he learn that he is not the most brilliant bulb on the ice and that Father knows best? That is like saying mommie is mean because she took away my beer and candy.

      February 26, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • Duh

      "How else would he learn that he is not the most brilliant bulb on the ice and that Father knows best?"

      Not all fathers know best, it's why we have a foster care system, why the suicide rate is so high, why kids bully, why kids end up in psych wards If a father is so dumb as to put you out on the ice like that then the father should be locked up.

      February 26, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • fred

      Duh
      Let us assume God exists as revealed through the Bible. Adam is given everything needed in a perfect garden where there is no pain and no evil because Adam is in perfect unity with God. God warns Adam that if he rejects that perfect unity (complete dependence on God and His desires for Adam) he will surly die. There was no death as Adam was in unity with the eternal connected spiritually. Adam stepped out of perfect unity with God to be like God having knowledge of good and evil rather than dependence in unity as God knew was best for man.

      Now what part of that is mean?

      February 26, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      More pathetic spin. Ad hoc going "Well the spiritual death was instant, and they physically died eventually so it's all ok" when I specifically said there is absolutely no contextual support for god talking about a "spiritual death". THIS is what I was talking about. You start with your conclusion, and have to change things to make it fit. Was man supposed to be immortal before the "fall"? There's a whole bunch of problems that come up with that.
      Also, the tree was the knowledge of good and evil, which means that Adam and Eve had no concept of those things in the beginning, so the only thing that was supposed to stop them from eating the fruit for all eternity was "Don't do it or you die". Reminds me of abstinence only education. An abject failure of basic human psychology, but wait, isn't god supposed to be all knowing?

      February 26, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “Ad hoc going "Well the spiritual death was instant, and they physically died eventually so it's all ok" when I specifically said there is absolutely no contextual support for god talking about a "spiritual death".”
      =>ok, one at time so we do not get all crossed up. One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that sin separates man from God. God is not with us physically and we are told God is Spirit as a way to describe the substance of God. Adam was separated spiritually. They realized they were naked and hid from God. God is pure and they were pure suddenly they realized what they looked like outside of that unity with God. They heard God walking in the garden and hid – notice they are not physically connected but spiritually connected. Now, help me here how do you see that connection that is not physical and separate? The break in pure consciousness was spirit to spirit was it not? If not what was that connection that was severed?

      February 26, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • Patrick

      "They realized they were naked and hid from God. God is pure and they were pure suddenly they realized what they looked like outside of that unity with God. They heard God walking in the garden and hid – notice they are not physically connected but spiritually connected. Now, help me here how do you see that connection that is not physical and separate? The break in pure consciousness was spirit to spirit was it not? If not what was that connection that was severed?"

      fred is what we call the anit-christ, he is twisting what the scriptures say to justify his personal belief in his version of the Christian God. They were naked because they were in human form that is what the original writers intended, it's why the challenges of the flesh are written about is so many places in the bible. A soul can't be naked.

      February 26, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      There is also points in the bible where god comes down physically. God apparently was also physical enough to be able to "walk" in the garden looking for Adam and Eve. Oh wait, that's right, the bible says what you want it to say, when you want it to say, in whatever way you want. Because apparently in your mind you can take a single verse somewhere in the bible that supports your position, and apply it wherever you want it to. Oh because you just say so right?

      February 26, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Without getting into the theology of the substance that was walking in the Garden the separation happened before God came walking in the cool of the evening. Can we agree on what it was that Adam was separated from?

      February 26, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      No we can't, because all your doing is pulling shit out of your ass to try and rationalize away everything.

      February 26, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • fred

      Patrick
      Even C.S. Lewis sees Adam and Eve as figurative in telling a very important truth. It does not matter if they were physical or not the truth remains the same. It does not matter if Jonah was figurative or not the truth is the same. The Bible was written to address the soul of man and the physical properties of nature impact soul. I will not argue that Adam and Eve were physical or figurative as it matters not.

      I did not say Adam was or was not physical in my post. I was addressing the spiritual side of Adam or soul of Adam not his outward appearance before or after sin. We are made of flesh and spirit. The story addresses the flesh, spirit and soul of man during the fall or original sin.

      February 26, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Ok, Adam did not have shame or fear before Eve and God. What do you propose happened suddenly to evoke that awareness of shame and fear that happened before God came walking in?

      February 26, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      fred, at the very best, the author of The Babble fantasy invented the "the devil/woman made me do it" plot twist.

      Until you prove that your (or any god) exists and that The Babble is its inerrant word, there is no point in seriously discussing the story. Unless, of course, you admit that you are just hacking over the arcane background and rules to the world's oldest fantasy role playing game, with extreme emphasis on fantasy.

      February 26, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
    • fred

      HotAirAce
      Correct, the problem is when someone takes issue with the foundation of why God is needed according the Bible (truth or fair tale asside). If the Bible does not say sin separates us from God then 51% of the world of gets it wrong.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Maybe Adam had a tiny dick and didn't realize it until he gained the knowledge. As we all know, no one likes a tiny dick. He was also uncircumcised since this was before that law was passed down, but since god never changes, that means that the law being there later retroactively applies. See, making up shit is easy.
      I wonder when you're going to realize I'm not going to let you slide with non-answers and run away like you invariably do.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      yes, just like all the other ideas you have about the Bible. You made the claim that the Bible does address spiritual separation from God between Adam yet you never state what that separation was. I suspect your base assumption is that there is no such thing as a spiritual side to man.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      LOL so you actually only respond fully to a point when you can twist it to make it seem like you're right? Pathetic little tool. It states specifically in your OWN BOOK, that Adam and Eve should have dropped fucking dead the moment they ate the fruit, yet they didn't. You can twist, turn, spin and whine all you fucking want but it doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely nothing. And to think, this is only the first of many of my points that you have yet to address.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • Pete

      "f the Bible does not say sin separates us from God then 51% of the world of gets it wrong."

      This is a classic example of how this person tries to deceive and distort the truth. Only 32% of people are Christians on this planet and follow the bible. We are talking about the bible in this discussion and this deceitful posters twists the truth to try and win the argument. Patrick is right this poster would qualify as an anti-christ.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      No, the Bible uses die and surely die in addressing the result of eating the fruit. There is not a single theologian that understands the Bible who would say this means instant physical death. Get a grip they were still running around hiding from God after eating the fruit.
      That instant death you made up is contrary to the rest of Genesis 3 and the Bible as a whole. It is your opinion that is unsupported.

      February 26, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      No, it's something written in your holy book that makes no sense without an ad hoc rationalization.

      February 26, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ fred

      Actually, Jesus told them they were given the sign which was the sign of Jonah.

      Actually, you have no clue what Jeebus said or didn't say. You have only your big book of stories, which has never had a single shred of verifiable evidence to confirm that Jeebus did or said anything.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
    • David B

      notice how he steered clear on the subject of his god rewarding based on believing absurdities and a$ $ kissing

      February 26, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
    • fred

      doobs
      If it is real or a fairy tale is a different discussion. However, as it is written is very clear and it is sad that we cannot even agree on what it actually says.

      February 26, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      That's what happens when people like you start with the conclusion and have to make up rationalizations to make it fit. I present it as it is written, and you have to spin like a fucking top to make it fit what you've already decided it says.

      February 26, 2013 at 8:41 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I can now clearly understand how atheists can take a rational theory such as evolution and completely use it wrong. I do not know of one scientist with intellectual integrity that cannot understand the fundamentals of Christian faith. We are not discussing deep theological matters we are simply talking about the fall of man as seen through the eyes of Moses 3,400 years ago and supported right on thru to the days of Jesus.

      February 26, 2013 at 8:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Oh look, you've posted irrelevant bullshit. Are you going back to your older tactics now? So how long till you disappear and claim to have suddenly and inexplicably "lose" the thread?

      February 26, 2013 at 8:45 pm |
    • fred

      1Now the serpent was morecrafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
      2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you WILL DIE.’”
      4“You will NOT SURELY DIE,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      =>The Bible gives a clear warning about tactics used by the serpent. Twisting WILL DIE and SURELY DIE is an old deception that you have fallen for.

      February 26, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      LOL You're so incredibly PATHETIC! I'd feel so bad for you if you weren't so set in thinking we all need to follow your bullshit religion. As it stands, you just really need to grasp at anything to twist so you can say "The bible says what I want it to say in the way I say it because I said so". Keep flailing fred, I'm sure you'll come up with something to ease your troubled mind of the mean ol' atheist who won't accept your flat assertions.

      February 26, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • David B

      so humans weren't capable of dying before eating the 'magic fruit'?

      February 26, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      It is very clear as I said. I did not write it. Sorry that your sin has blinded you. The entire Bible is focused on restoring the spiritual unity between man and God yet you claim that is not what it says and I made it all up. Someone is short on logic and reason.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:15 pm |
    • Doobs

      If it is real or a fairy tale is a different discussion.

      Actually, it belongs right here. You are claiming that there is a god and an afterlife, as well as describing what this afterlife will be like and the criteria for attaining a good afterlife or a bad afterlife. Discussing the book you use as evidence and whether it is accurate or even possible is appropriate.

      However, as it is written is very clear and it is sad that we cannot even agree on what it actually says.

      It is not clear, and that's why nobody, even christians, can agree what is actually says. You would think your god could have done better.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:22 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Oh so you're going for the constant reassertion of you being right just because. Keep going fred, keep being the poster child of the mental destruction that religion causes.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      Adam and Eve died spiritually and physically. Death is the result of sin.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:29 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      Nothing to do with magic fruit. God is eternal and offers life eternal when that life is rejected that absence of life is typically looked at as “death”.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:32 pm |
    • fred

      Doobs
      That which is critical to the redemption of a soul is very clear. There is no doubt. I have yet to find one person that has a better plan for the redemption of souls than what God has created. If you are that one I would love to hear it.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Oh look fred is going with the "no better plan" Red Herring. He also seems to have given up attempting to justify his bullshit and feels it's enough to constantly reassert his position. Poor, pathetic little fundie.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • David B

      what exactly is this plan? his plan is you can live forever if you will blindly believe absurdities and are willing to kiss our
      as $es? That's one hell of a plan. And like I stated earlier, it shows your god is morally bankrupt.. he rewards horrible human beings and punishes good ones.. DISGUSTING!!

      February 26, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      The attributes of God as revealed through creation and recorded in the Bible is to provide the best possible outcome to the greatest possible number of souls. This is the only alternative if God is eternal with infinite love, self sufficient, omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent.
      If you wish to assign attributes that are not given they need to fit within these that are given.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:55 pm |
    • fred

      Gods plan is eternal lifes separated from evil for those who truly desire it.

      February 26, 2013 at 10:00 pm |
    • David B

      again... your god doesn't reward good or punish bad... he judges solely on whether you will believe ridiculous stories w/ bad evidence & promise to kiss his crusty @-ss. Your heaven is going to be overflowing with the biggest lowlifes on the planet.. have fun with that. I wouldn't want any part of it.

      February 26, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
    • David B

      And as usual your god is failing.. only about 30% of the world believes his ridiculous nonsense. (and many of the christians think other christians are going to hell) but no matter, 70% of the souls on this planet right now won't be getting a pass to his celestial themepark. He's had 2,000 years to get a passing grade and but like everything he's supposedly done it's been a colossal failure! 30% LOLOLOLOSER!!!!

      February 26, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
    • David B

      I thought he 'wins' in the end? How is a 2/1 shellacking 'winning'?
      No wonder he keeps delaying 'ending the game'
      too bad the numbers aren't headed in his favor... tell your loser god to accept that he got his a $ s beat

      February 26, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • David B

      yea the best way to save souls was to have himself tortured to death in a remote part of the middle east 2,000 years ago..
      how long did it take for the word to get to all those other societies?
      took 100's .. a 1,000 + years to reach certain parts of the world... gee I wonder what happened to the souls of all the people that lived and died without ever hearing of this ridiculousness?
      Did they get to heaven without a savior? or is your psychopathic god torturing them?
      Seems your god didn't give 2 shts whether they got this supposedly extremely important message.

      February 26, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      Jesus said the gate is narrow and few find it. Personally I do not measure up most of the time. This puts me in the same category as everyone else where we hope for the grace and mercy of God to provide. That is good enough for me.
      You are right about the numbers as the End of Days will arrive when the is no longer hope for another soul to find life.

      February 26, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
    • fred

      David B
      “the best way to save souls was to have himself tortured to death in a remote part of the middle east 2,000 years ago”

      =>It was the perfect time in history when the first stable government and system of commerce was in place under the Roman Empire that would reach the world. Jesus remains the single most noted historic event of all time. The Cross of Christ is at the center of world attention to this day. Darn if it isn’t the year of the Lord 2013 for all to see BC and AD.

      =>it was the best way as there could be no greater evil poured out upon one person to fully reveal the difference between the way of God and the ways of man. Evil emptied it’s storehouse and Christ rose and the hope of man was set on fire to create what has been known for the past 2,000 years as the light of the world. There is nothing more anyone can do. As Jesus said it is finished.
      You ignore the fact God is the power behind creation. That creative power has no problem putting all the right pieces together to bring about His will. You have some other will or agenda that you think God should follow. Everyone that needs to receive the message or had the hope within them has received every opportunity to reveal their heart.

      You have had ample opportunity to reveal your heart against Christ. All He ever did was give and that seems to not sit right with you.

      February 27, 2013 at 12:34 am |
    • David B

      again.. you ignore the main problems with his imposed gift of human sacrifice..

      if the main objective is to 'save souls', doing this during that time period, in that part of the world is idiotic (as is the whole story btw) he could have done this more recently, and many more people would see his supposed miracles & be willing to kiss his a $ s (which i already showed is all he/they care about) but instead your god is only scoring a 30% in terms of saved souls.. can you say failure?

      and conveniently dodged the question about all the generations and generations of people that lived on this planet AFTER your gods suicide mission was complete that never heard of him or this idiotic religion.. what happened to their souls? did they get to heaven without a savior? or are they being punished even though it's not their fault for not knowing? if this message was sooooo important for all of mankind why didn't your god bother to get the message to these millions of people?

      February 27, 2013 at 8:11 am |
    • David B

      what exactly did he give? and how do you know what he did or didn't do?
      and don't say his life.. because according to you he isn't dead! he basically just took a 3 day nap.

      February 27, 2013 at 8:15 am |
    • David B

      yea you don't measure up but someone else measures up much better than you... but you will get admission and they will be denied admission because you were willing / able to believe absurdities with bad evidence and they couldn't.
      yea that sounds like a perfectly logical system...

      February 27, 2013 at 8:25 am |
    • Science

      Morning Fred

      For your educational NEEDS !!!

      BBC. Planet of the Apemen. Battle for Earth 1. Ho-mo Erectus

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUliLKSJ4bQ

      Peace

      February 27, 2013 at 8:26 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      And there goes fred, completely unable to answer any questions once again. Not to mention he ran from his prosletyzing spiel to me, probably because I don't accept his flat assertions and don't follow his little script. Pathertic little religious zealot.

      February 27, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Not so sure anymore if you make these statements to be annoying or because you lost the debate. Please produce one other person that agrees with you that Adam’s sin of eating the apple did not bring about separation from God according to the story of Adam and Eve

      February 27, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • WASP

      @fred: prove adam and eve exsisted then we can talk. 🙂

      February 27, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Seperation wasn't what god said. It was supposed to be death. You're the one thatapparently likes to change the definition of every word in the bible to fit what you want it to you dishonest little shit. You constantly reassert your position and never actually address what it says, you merely redifine anything you want. You're still just so pathetic it's almost sad fred.

      February 27, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ fred

      I have yet to find one person that has a better plan for the redemption of souls than what God has created. If you are that one I would love to hear it.

      No god, no "soul", no redemption needed.

      February 27, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
    • fred

      Doobs
      WASP
      Ok, we are only talking about what the story claims not if the claim is true. However, is it necessary that Adam, Eve and the serpent are physical humans and reptile in order for absolute truth to be understood?

      February 27, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “Seperation wasn't what god said. It was supposed to be death”
      =>now you are just jerking yourself around. When you die there is a separation between life and death.
      =>Adam and Eve were Kicked out of the Garden
      =>flames guarded the entrance so Adam and Eve could not take part in the tree of life (being in Christ i.e. God).
      =>Would you like a 500 verse list of how and why sin separates us from God.
      => 1 Corinthians 15:56The sting of death is sin, Jesus said: Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”, Paul said: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
      Now, can you see sin is death according to the story ?

      February 27, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ fred

      You stated that god has "the best" plan for our redemption. I said that no redemption is needed, because god doesn't exist and people don't have "souls" that need redeeming. What part of that didn't you understand?

      Your continual spinning of bible stories to mean what you want it to mean is ridiculous.

      February 27, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • fred

      Doobs
      I could not agree with you more, If we don't need saving we certainly don't need a savior. The Bible is a story about God redeeming a people and you are 100% correct in that if we don't need redeeming we don't need God or the Bible. If existence is nothing more than organic matter responding to chemical stimuli we do not need existence either.

      February 27, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Yes you can cherry pick all you want from all kinds of verses that actually have contextual support in those specific verses for talking about a so-called "spiritual" death and what not, but you continue to not actually address what genesis says. Not to mention the OT is fairly ambiguous on any kind of afterlife. All your little verses seem to be from the NT, so really another ad hoc changing of death meaning "oh spiritual blah blah other stuff". Still dishonest as ever.

      February 27, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “you continue to not actually address what genesis says.”
      =>They ate the apple and “the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were na-ked; so they se-wed fi-g leaves together and made coverings for themselves.”
      -if I understand you corre-ctly you are saying that suddenly open eyes, nak-edness and covering up is limited to the physical observable bodies. That interpretation goes against everything we know about the symbolic picture language of that time period.
      This is a major point regarding the presence of good and evil in man. That presence brought about radical change in how they saw themselves in moral perspective (as-sumed), car-nal perspective (as-sumed) and we could go on. The big thing is that perspective has changed their eyes were open and instead of seeing only God and what God has provided they see what evil has introduced and know the presence of good and evil for the first time.

      Our perspective and att-itude of the heart to this day includes good and evil. I hate to use the word self evident but what is your take on separation from the pure, holy one sided understanding of existence into a new knowledge that includes good and evil?

      February 27, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ fred

      Our existence is a fact. Humans exist. Is it necessary? I suppose not, but we do exist.

      Making up gods and ideas of sin, redemption and salvation to explain why we exist is not fact, and is definitely not necessary to enjoy life. I'd say the opposite is true, but that's just my opinion.

      February 27, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • fred

      Doobs
      I thought the same and would never have bought into any of what I once believed was nonsense for fools. It was a series of external events I see as miracles while most would consider them as simply a string of coincodences. That experience of God has not left me.

      February 27, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You never fail to disappoint when I expect you to cherry pick like the dishonest little shit you are. You utterly pathetic little tool.

      February 27, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I see you ask me to show you a verse in Genesis the directly relates to your point of separation between God and Adam and I simply post the very next verse.
      The truth and reality is that I gave you a direct verse and response from the section of Genesis in question and you saw that you were wrong. Beginning on this day forward I know that when you are wrong you use the cherry picking default as if that somehow deflects your error in logic.
      Well just keep on thinking that their eyes were opened has no meaning other than their eyes were opened.

      February 27, 2013 at 8:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You did absolutely nothing of the sort you liar.

      February 27, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      The eye opening part is also completely irrelevant because it says absolutely nothing about any kind of spiritual death. You're just taking NT jargen, and ad hoc applying it to OT scriptures to justify Adam and Eve not immediately dropping dead like your god said they would. It's pretty typical that you will make assertions to justify all your others.

      February 27, 2013 at 9:04 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Read it again. Nowhere does it say you will immediatly drop dead. The words are die as given to Eve and surely die as given by God to Adam and will not surely die as given by the Serpent. The Hebrew means the certainty of death. Sentence of death was immediately imposed upon eating of the apple. Adam and Eve began to die immediately as they were no longer immortal. Their innocent relationship with God was severed period.
      Because you do not personally have a spiritual side does not mean God and Adam did not. The entire basis of the Bible relates to soul and Spirit. They were cut off from the tree of life. Please tell me you have heard of the tree of life and see it was in that Garden according to the text not my assumption.
      Genesis 3:22
      He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

      February 27, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And where did it state that Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the fruit? It didn't as far as I see it, and this goes back to everything in the bible meaning whatever you want.

      February 27, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      "And where did it state that Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the fruit? It didn't as far as I see it"
      =>again no direct words to that effect were required as it is self evident from the trext as follows:

      => genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness
      -God, Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot not die.

      =>Genesis 1:29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
      -it is clear no living animals were food only plants were food. There was no predation before the fall no killing of anything. It is clearly implied there was no death.

      =>Genesis 3:17 “Cursed is the ground because of you;”,,,19: you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; and to dust you will return.”
      -now the ground is cursed not blessed and Adam will return to it. It was not cursed before they ate the apple.

      =>Genesis 3:21 LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
      -The tree of life and the tree of knowledge were both in the Garden as mentioned in Genesis 2:9 “9The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
      -Adam had access to the tree thus he had access to the eternal life.

      =>Genesis 3:24 “ After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
      -Adam was cut off from immortality cut off from the tree of life.

      February 27, 2013 at 11:31 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Still changing everything to what you want it to mean. Apparently, in your mind, god not saying "Oh BTW you can eat these animals" translates directly to "There was no death anywhere and carnivorous animals didn't need to eat either. How do I know this? Because I say so". Did you just forget that plants are actually alive as well? Any herb that was plucked out of the ground to make food was the death of something living. Every fruit was the death of potential fruit trees.
      And apparently "In our image" gives you justification to immediately say "HA see? They were immortal.".
      You have absolutely no justification for any of your moronic leaps, just like every other post you put here.

      February 28, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Read it again and take note that lack capacity to grasp the obvious.

      -Gen 3:24 Adam was cut off from immortality. Why would he be cut off from something he never had?

      -Gen 3:21 Adam was told the fruit from the tree of life was good for him and it was given to Adam by God. Exactly how reasonable is it for you to conclude Adam was not given immortality. It is stated God gave him the tree of life and the fruit was good for him.

      -Gen 3:17 God cursed the land and said Adam would return to the ground because he ate the apple. What kind of curse is it turn back to dust if Adam was never going to turn back to dust in the first place? Philosophical naturalism seems to have turned off your logic alarm.

      -Gen 1:29 Man, beast, birds and crawling creatures were given the breath of life. That is what it says period. Vegetation was given to them for food to eat by God. God never said vegetation had the breath of life in it. You are the one who is hypocrite to suggest plants have the breath of life when God did not expressly say he did. Now to look in the mirror and see how badly you have twisted your own rules of logic.

      Genesis 1:26 Take carful note you are the cherry picking hypocrite. God expressly stated “let us make man in our image”. Did you forget God is the Alpha and the Omega, self existent, eternal creator of all things. Did you forget that the opening of the Bible says “In the beginning God”

      February 28, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And how do you know that dust wasn't a "metaphor" or some other shit? Tell me fred, you little piece of shit, how dare you call me hypocrite when you have thrown out "spiritual death", "metaphor" and what not when it came to them not dropping dead immediately, and then when it comes to using the same book of the bible to prove something else, everything suddenly becomes taken in it's literal "this wasn't stated"? You dishonest, moronic little fuck.
      And if you want to take "oh this was and wasn't stated" to this fucking level, then where is it stated that Adam actually ate of the fruit before the "fall"?
      Are you saying that according to the bible plants aren't alive?

      February 28, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “And how do you know that dust wasn't a "metaphor" or some other sh-it?”
      =>because God formed man from the dust of the ground:”Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

      “you have thrown out "spiritual death", "metaphor" and what not when it came to them not dropping dead immediately”
      =>We already resolved the “dead immediately” part because die and surely die are not the Hebrew words for drop dead instantly. A simple read of the text shows the death of innocence and the death of their complete dependence on God. It is not a metaphor and I made it clear from the text not assumptions that Adam was made in the image of God and that included the spiritual. Now, if you suggest there was no spiritual side to God then you really are lost.
      Do we need to go over it again in case you forgot what was resolved?

      “ and then when it comes to using the same book of the bible to prove something else, everything suddenly becomes taken in it's literal "this wasn't stated"?”
      =>Go back to the mirror and take a close look. You were the one that claimed the Bible did not say it when in fact the Bible made a direct statement.

      “where is it stated that Adam actually ate of the fruit before the "fall"?”
      =>You are really loosing it today Hawaii.
      -Gen 3:6 “husband, who was with her, and he ate it.”
      -Gen 3:12 “1 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.””
      -Gen3:17” 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’”

      “Are you saying that according to the bible plants aren't alive?”
      =>The “breath of life” is how it was phrased: Genesis 2:7, “And the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.”
      =>The Bible speaks of man and animals as having breath and breath of life. Breath of life as to man includes the extra “became a living soul” descriptor. As to other animals it has to do with blood as “life” is in the blood (biblical sense not biology) and breathing.
      Why do you find it so hard to understand the difference between life and alive as used in Genesis?
      =>gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation
      =>gen1:20 “Let the water teem with LIVING creatures” Gen1:24 Let the land produce LIVING creatures
      -note the term “living” is omitted from vegetation.

      February 28, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You really are a dishonest little tool.

      With the dropping dead, you claimed "oh it was a spiritual death that was being talked about", and nothing was solved because you stopped responding and went off on another of my points from a few days ago that someone else brought up again. Saying it was "solved" when you merely stopped reasserting your position is dishonest at best.

      As for the fruit, I was talking about the fruit of life, you know, what we were actually talking about? Oh that's right, you can misrepresent it, so it's a requirement right? You fucking dishonest ass.

      As for breath of life, this is just another time when you just want to attribute whatever you want to any point of the bible to support whatever point you want to make. The fact remains, plants were alive, and plants die when you eat them.

      Like I said before, if you weren't such a happily dishonest and ignorant little shit that wants your religious dogma to be forced on everyone, I'd feel sorry for you.

      February 28, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “With the dropping dead, you claimed "oh it was a spiritual death that was being talked about”
      =>I am not going over all of that again because you either lack capacity to comprehend the simple revelation of Genesis as it relates to Adam and the apple or you have a serious psychological issue that blocks common sense.
      I specifically addressed both the physical death and the spiritual death as did Genesis.

      February 28, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest

      =>take note you are the one that has switched topics. The fruit of the tree of life runs throughout the Bible. Typically Christ is referred to as the tree of life and salvation is brought through the living waters which is the truth the Words of God. Adam was in the middle of the Garden. Adam was in the middle of presence of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is a picture of eternal life with God. Only the goodness of God was present, only the creative awe of God was present.
      There is no way death and or sin are part of that image. Unbelievable you can claim that is. This is the core of your problem is that you cannot understand what is good in the absence of sin and death.

      February 28, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      I lack capacity? Please, you lack the capacity to even understand what integrity is you ass. You addressed absolutely nothing, merely continued to make your assertions, just like you are now. Why don't you just run away already. Usually after I refuse to accept bald assertions for a few hours, you just disappear like the dishonest coward that you are.

      February 28, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Frank

      "Christ is referred to as the tree of life and salvation is brought through the living waters which is the truth the Words of God"

      So was Mithra and other pagan gods of that time period, doesn't mean it was true.

      February 28, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • fred

      Frank
      You are correct there is a big difference between God and the gods men fashion for themselves to reflect their desires.

      February 28, 2013 at 6:35 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      You lose, just look in mirror and say 10 times "I was wrong Genesis is cear about Adams physical and spiritual death".

      Go back and read Genesis 2 and 3 very slow until you hear the deception of the serpent or the truth. The choice is yours. I didn't run from God because although I have fear I am not afraid because God is very good.
      Why do you run with fear and trembling from picking up Genesis 2 and 3 then giving it a slow read.

      February 28, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You just saying "you lose" doesn't mean anything. Your attempts to not actually defend any of your assertions is getting more pathetic by the post. All you've done is make assertions, and you have backed up nothing. No citations on the original Hebrew or sources on translations. Redifining whatever you want to, and just plain ignoring certain things. Typical behaviour, but you've stayed at it for longer than normal.
      Keep going fred, keep showing how pathetic you really are.

      February 28, 2013 at 7:16 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      There are thousands of commentaries that go like this one from Clark as it is the common understanding:

      "Thou shalt surely die – מות תמות moth tamuth; Literally, a death thou shalt die; or, dying thou shalt die. Thou shalt not only die spiritually, by losing the life of God, but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. This we find literally accomplished; every moment of man's life may be considered as an act of dying, till soul and body are separated. Other meanings have been given of this passage, but they are in general either fanciful or incorrect"
      By Adam Clarke, LL.D. F.S.A. M.R.I.A – 1931"New York, Published by J. Emory and B. Waugh, for the Methodist Episcopal Church, at the conference office, 13 Crosby-Street. J. Collord, Printer

      March 1, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Holy Shit are you serious? The translation that you gave is what my position was of what it said, and all the rest says is the same bullshit assertions that you're making. Changing "You will die" to, "You will die spiritually and you will become mortal", even though there is no support that they were in fact immortal before the fall. The had access to the tree of life, but it never states that they ate the fruit from the tree of life. Unless you're going to claim it was metaphorical AND literal at the same time, since god specifically didn't want them to eat from the tree of life after the fall.

      March 1, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguets

      Would you accept Augustine's understanding?:
      Augustine's City of God, Book 13

      CHAP. 12.–WHAT DEATH GOD INTENDED, WHEN HE THREATENED OUR FIRST PARENTS WITH DEATH IF THEY SHOULD DISOBEY HIS COMMANDMENT.

      When, therefore, it is asked what death it was with which God threatened our first parents if they should transgress the commandment they had received from Him, and should fail to preserve their obedience,–whether it was the death of soul, or of body, or of the whole man, or that which is called second death,–we must answer, It is all. For the first consists of two; the second is the complete death, which consists of all. For, as the whole earth consists of many lands, and the Church universal of many churches, so death universal consists of all deaths. The first consists of two, one of the body, and another of the soul. So that the first death is a death of the whole man, since the soul without God and without the body suffers punishment for a time: but the second is when the soul, without God but with the body, suffers punishment everlasting. When, therefore, God said to that first man whom he had placed in Paradise, referring to the forbidden fruit," In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,"(1) that threatening included not only the first part of the first death, by which the soul is deprived of God; nor only the subsequent part of the first death, by which the body is deprived of the soul; nor only the whole first death itself, by which the soul is punished in separation from God and from the body;–but it includes whatever of death there is, even to that final death which is called second, and to which none is subsequent.

      March 1, 2013 at 8:18 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Why would I give a shit about yet ANOTHER person saying the exact same you are without any justification. Post all the moronic shit saying the same thing you want, it still doesn't show any justification other than trying to make it fit into a presupposition.

      March 1, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Well, tell me then what would have become of Adam had they never touched that tree of knowledge ?

      March 1, 2013 at 8:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      I don't know, and I don't care. Nice Red Herring btw.

      March 1, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      You should care because if he just kept his hands off that fruit we would not be having this discussion.
      I notice you ability to understand abstract thought has improved significantly. All I need to do now is break through that wall of reason of logic that is obscuring the truth.

      March 1, 2013 at 9:41 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Trying to de-rail again you pathetic, dishonest little zealot?

      March 1, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      OMG, you are possibly right on one point. We do not know from scripture if Adam was immortal before eating the apple.

      March 1, 2013 at 10:09 pm |
    • fred

      Immortal may be a poor choice of words. I would agree that Adam was created with a life that would not end if he did not sin. Dare I say Adam was deathless prior to eating the apple?

      March 1, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
  7. JIm

    Sorry to say I disagree with the author, with regards to Jesus ever having body odor or been sick. Odors and sickness derive from sin. Jesus was the second Adam. Sin nature passes from the father to the children, and Jesus' father was God. So I do not believe Jesus ever had body odor. Certainly he perspired, that is a vital function of the body, but in His case not necessarily odorous. Also, in the tomb, His body did not begin to decay (sin); no parasites or decomposition had power to come upon Him. We sinners on the other hand begin dying the moment we are born and with the internal parasites needed to return us to dust.

    February 25, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      odors and sickness do not come from sin.
      Both come from bacteria and viruses. To say any different is to ignore reality.

      February 25, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • sam stone

      Odors derive from sin?

      So, I suppose the savior never sweated?

      Or passed gas?

      February 25, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • sam stone

      the savior's sweat was as pure as spring water....

      he never passed gas, because flat-u-lence is a sign of a sin nature...

      his feet were as pleasent as a floral bouquet

      February 25, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
    • JIm

      Richard...OF COURSE pathogens cause odors and disease...but my post referred to sickness and odors as caused by sin because, prior to Adam's sin there were no pathogens. God did not create them. They were a result of sin. Couldn't you connect those few dots? Why stop reasoning with the fact that pathogens cause odors and disease?

      Sam...I clearly said Jesus perspired...this means "sweat", FYI. Flatulence? Yes; air is in the digestive trace and it is displaced by food moving through. Again, no odor in Jesus' gas since there was no decay (methane) because there was no sin within Jesus.

      Also, two powerful verses I wish everyone pondered: "To the pure, God shows himself pure; to the crooked, God shows himself perverse". and "The secret of the Lord is for those who fear him" look them up!

      February 26, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • sam stone

      Odor in flatulence is the result of sin?

      Wow....just wow

      February 26, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • sam stone

      So, the food moving through Jesus's digestive tract did not decay?

      February 26, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • CrossCountry

      Holy hell fire and brimstone.

      did someone actually say odor comes from sin.

      February 27, 2013 at 9:08 pm |
  8. True Dichotomy

    Don't try to be right or wrong, just embrace the free unmerited gift that is being offered out of grace that requires the currency of faith and love.

    February 25, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • End Religion

      You mean feign obedience to imaginary creatures, right?

      February 25, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
  9. mckinney_man

    Enjoyed you take on the human side of Christ. It is very possible. I' a beliver of Christ and have no issue seeing in that context. There is no doubt he got dirty, he got sick. He was fully human, and also fully God. I think the reason he had to be fully man was that on Judgment Day when he judges the nations, no one can claim that He did not " know what it was like to be human" Sinful man will try anything to save himself from the judgement of God and the lame excuse "you dont know what it was like" wont hold water. Jesus Christ, Son of Man Son of God has been given the right to judge all men by the Father. May the Spirit of God enlighten you and show you the right path, the narrow path, to come to Christ and be saved from your sins. Amen

    February 25, 2013 at 9:34 am |
    • catholic engineer

      Hello, mckinney_man,
      I agree fully. When one looks at a crucifix and remembers Jesus' words, "God, why have you forsaken me?!" we can realize that when God became human, he took on the ENTIRE human condition. By abandoning himself on the cross, he reached out to the farthest fringes of human experience to gather in everyone. That tends to be a dirty business.

      February 25, 2013 at 11:26 am |
  10. red carpet ready

    The theists are convinced in the truth.
    The atheists are convinced of their incredulity.

    It is the ' in between' that sway side to side just like their ancestors they claim to have evolved from 😉

    February 25, 2013 at 7:44 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      incorrect a$$uptions

      February 25, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
  11. Louis

    I don't know about Jesus being dirty. From what I've read about him he seems like a great man. Its his followers that are filthy hypocritical bigots. They always have been.

    February 24, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
  12. erit nobis cogitare

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jHCisnAVrWQ

    February 24, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
  13. Jacob

    Show me your hands.Do they have scars from giving?
    Show me your feet.Are they wounded in service?
    Show me your heart.Have you left a place for divine love?

    Fulton J.Sheen

    February 24, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • Doobs

      Show me your titties!

      Rick James (as seen on the Dave Chappelle show)

      February 24, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
  14. Zipporah

    Jesus Christ is God incarnate, savior of mankind.

    February 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • David B

      your idiot god should have waited another 2,000 years.. imagine how many more souls he could have saved if he would have done it in today's world instead of performing his miracles in bronze age palestine.. your god is an imbecile!

      February 24, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
    • David B

      30% of the 7 billion are christian... 70% = hellbound... can you say FAILURE? just another in a long list of your skydaddies screwups

      February 24, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      David B
      "30% of the 7 billion are christian."

      Heh, and apparently quite a percentage of those won't make it to "heaven" because they are not "TRUE Christians"!

      February 24, 2013 at 10:00 pm |
    • Zipporah

      By rejecting God , which alternate world view are you being led into? Are you spending more time with non believers and being swayed by their world view? When was the last time you spent time in prayer to ask God for help and understanding?

      February 24, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
    • sam stone

      free people do not need saviors, zippy. only slaves do

      February 25, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • David B

      I haven't spent any time praying to invisible creatures from outer space (well not since I was in middle school) nor will I be at any point in the future, unless I become old, and lose my critical faculties. (Which really won't count)

      February 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • David B

      Yes I know they all believe the others aren't going, so it's going to be even less.. but didn't really feel the need to mention it. even if they all went their god is still a colossal failure & idiot.

      February 25, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
  15. Science

    4.5 billion years ago

    Geologic Journey 3 of 5 – The Canadian Shield

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-NnUadhT5Q

    Peace

    February 24, 2013 at 7:25 am |
  16. NS Murthy

    With his human qualities I feel Gandhi can be made into a God 100 years down the road-of course with some high pitched marketing.Why God will come and save of all the creatures-the humans?Get ready for that bang which wiped many species
    from the face of earth.Meanwhile we can use soaps ,shampoos,deodorants ,conduct beauty contests and enjoy!

    February 24, 2013 at 1:37 am |
  17. The Anti-Christ

    Atheists are my kind of people.

    February 23, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • David B

      mission to save the world? hahahah. save the world from what? his psychotic fathers wrath?? (which is really him)
      and the only way to 'save' us from himself was to get tortured to death in bronze age palestine? lmao.
      Then he brought himself back to life 3 days later!! where's the sacrifice again??

      February 23, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • David B

      sorry. wrong person :/

      February 23, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
  18. Mrs. Lee

    It is so sad that people have such a low regard for Christ and to air them in a public forum is totally ridiculous. Your opinions of God are exactly that, but you shouldn't attempt to mock Him, discredit Him, or others views on his goodness and existence. May God forgive you just as Jesus said on the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing. And for anyone else who does not agree, as I said, it is only your opinion and I can't be influenced in the lest bit by your disbelief and I pray that those whom are weak are not influenced either. Say what you will about me and my beliefs, but I know the truth and cannot be moved nor will I be offended by ignorant remarks. God Bless You!

    February 23, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      The Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      February 23, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • sam stone

      So, we have opinions, but YOU know "The Truth".....

      Gotcha

      February 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • David B

      Your god(s) are a sham and even if he/they did exist, we wouldn't want forgiven.. he/they are clearly immoral psychopathic monsters.

      February 23, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
    • JIm

      David B., Why do you hate God so? Someone in whom you don't believe? Do you believe he exists (and hate him), or do you not believe he exists (and hate him)? Gotta be one or the other, cannot be both.

      February 26, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • David B

      uhhh I thought I made that clear already ... 'your god(s) are a sham'
      do i sound like a deluded nutter who believes in these ridiculous stories?
      in the infinitesimal chance that your god did exist and the bible was an accurate representation of his character (although I don't even need the storybook to prove that he would be evil & insane) then your god is clearly just that.. a bloodthirsty, morally bankrup,t psychopathic monster that isn't deserving of any praise and will surely get none from here.

      I know I know,..The gods you worship are nothing like that!!
      that's because it's make believe and they have any personality and character traits you desire!!!

      February 27, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
  19. Ozzie

    the only good thing that has come from religion is the music-so sayeth the late George Carlin--he was right!! An example–Catholics believe the Pope is infallible HOWEVER should a Pope resign, he loses his infallibility. Explain that????
    Its the same for the LDS's (Morman) head honcho, He is a prophet and his decrees are the word of God. There is so many people speaking FOR God, it's hard for the regular human to hear the REAL GOD-(What is in your heart)
    Sorry folks I'll stick with the music-As the Kris Kristofferson song says "...he's a poet, he's a prophet and he's a problem when he is stoned....

    February 23, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
  20. David B

    Not only was he dirty in all those ways but he also messed all over himself at some point in his early life!!! hahahaha. Your god soiled and crapped all over himself!!!! LMFAO

    February 22, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • anthonymulanzia

      All these not true;Christ himself got all this dirty from his mission to save the world.All the rest is people giving their own opinions as though you were there when he was on Earth....I don't really understand when someone says that Christ was dirty....

      February 23, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • sam stone

      Anthony: Aren't you giving your opinion also?

      February 23, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • David B

      mission to save the world? hahahah. save the world from what? his psychotic fathers wrath?? (which is really him)
      and the only way to 'save' us from himself was to get tortured to death in bronze age palestine? lmfao.
      Then he brought himself back to life 3 days later!! where's the sacrifice again???

      February 23, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • David B

      no shampoo, no toothpaste, no mouthwash, no deodorant, no soap, no detergent.. yea he was definitely a dirty mofo.

      February 23, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • JIm

      Sam...yes these are ALL opinions, and this is a debate. Debates do not occur over facts.

      February 26, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • sam stone

      jim: some people like to flatter their own opinions by calling them facts

      the "fact" that god exists
      the "fact" that jesus is the son of god
      the "fact" that there was a resurrection
      the "fact" that heaven and hell exist
      etc

      February 27, 2013 at 5:07 am |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.