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My Take: Jesus was a dirty, dirty God
January 5th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

My Take: Jesus was a dirty, dirty God

Editor’s note: Johnnie Moore is the author of Dirty God (#DirtyGod). He is a professor of religion and vice president at Liberty University. Keep track of him @johnnieM .

By Johnnie Moore, Special to CNN

(CNN) - Jesus was a lot more like you than you think, and a lot less clean cut than this iconic image of him that floats around culture.

You know the image. It’s the one where Jesus is walking like he’s floating in robes of pristine white followed by birds singing some holy little ditty. He’s polished, manicured, and clearly – God.

But despite the Christian belief that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, Jesus was a rather dirty God.

He was the “earthly” son of a carpenter, and life in the first-century was both more lurid and unfinished than our collective religious memory seems to recall.

To that end, I suggested recently to several astounded colleagues of mine that Jesus actually had to go to the bathroom, perhaps even on the side of the road between Capernaum and Jerusalem.

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What tipped them over the edge was when I insinuated that Jesus, like almost every other human being living in the rural world in that time, might have even had dysentery on an occasion or two.

Someone said, “You mean that Jesus might have had severe diarrhea?”

“Yep,” I replied, “That’s exactly what I mean.”

It seems like an obvious statement if you believe that Jesus was “fully God” and “fully man” (as most evangelicals believe and call the Incarnation), but to some of us it seems in the least, inappropriate, and at the most, sacrilege, to imagine Jesus in this way. We might believe that God was also man, but we picture him with an ever-present halo over his head.

But, actually, the Jesus of the Bible was more human than most people are conditioned to think.

I call this the dirty side of Jesus. He was grittier, and a lot more like us than maybe we believe, and that’s one of the reasons why so many thousands of people followed him so quickly.

They could relate to him.

He was the teacher from a small town who knew and understood the economic insecurity that was common in the first century. Times must have been rather tough for Jesus at points in his life, for he even spoke of being homeless, having to sleep on the ground with no roof over his head.

He also knew what it was like to have his message rejected and how it felt to be misunderstood. Jesus was regarded with such little significance in his hometown that one of his critics once remarked sardonically, “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?” Jesus eventually had to move to different city (Capernaum) because his teachings so infuriated the people living in his hometown that they drove him out of Nazareth and even tried to throw him off a cliff.

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The real Jesus had dirt underneath his fingernails and calluses on his hands. He probably smelled badly from sweating profusely in the Judean sun on his long hikes to Jerusalem, and Jesus was, without a doubt, rumored to be a hypocrite or absolutely mad for all the time he spent with prostitutes and those afflicted with leprosy.

Not exactly have a clean-cut image.

He had a rather shady reputation.

Some people thought he was a revolutionary. The religious leaders called him a heretic, and others even accused him of being a drunkard and a glutton - in no small part because of the vagabond group of disciples he had with him. No serious religious leader of his day would have ever recruited such people.

For his core 12 disciples, Jesus included a tough-as-nails, bombastic fisherman (Peter), a chief tax collector named Matthew (the most hated popular figure of the time), an eventual traitor who was stealing money out of the offering bucket (Judas), a prolific doubter (Thomas), two jocks nicknamed the “Sons of Thunder” (James and John) and Simon the Zealot, a member of a radical political party which believed in using violence to kick out the Romans.

Jesus was sarcastic, too.

He often snapped back at the Pharisees with a tone fit for late-night television, and in a terribly embarrassing moment for all those around him, Jesus even called these respected religious teachers “snakes” that were probably sons of “Satan.”

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That’s not exactly the behavior of a sweet, self-help teacher with a halo over his head.

It’s the behavior of a frustrated man who might also be divine, but sure knows how it feels for annoying people to get under his skin.

Christians believe that Jesus chose to be born fully human, too, but why?

Lots of theologians have laid out opinions over the centuries, and in their opining they have tried once again to hijack Jesus’ humanity by defining it in philosophical terms. I believe it’s simpler than the philosophy and church councils and centuries of argument.

The brilliance of Christianity is the image of a God, named Jesus, arrived with dirty hands.

Jesus came in a time period when Greco-Roman gods were housed in gigantic temples and portrayed with superhuman powers and with superhuman physiques. Gods were believed to be far away from people on their mountains or hemmed up in their sanctuaries.

Jesus arrived in defiance of this prevailing imagery.

Jesus didn’t come flinging lightning bolts from a mountaintop, or playing politics in Rome. He came to live in a typical Middle Eastern village called Nazareth that was home to a couple hundred typical people. He didn’t decide to brandish his power, but to spend most of his time with the powerless and disenfranchised. And when he started a religious movement that reshaped history, he did it in the most profound and anticlimatic way:

He let himself be killed, and then he busted open a tomb.

In Jesus we meet a Savior who understood the desire to sleep just a few more hours, and who had to control his temper sometimes. In Jesus we find a God we can relate to because he chose to relate to us.

He was the God who became dirty so that the world’s souls might be made clean.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Johnnie Moore.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Jesus

soundoff (7,741 Responses)
  1. Jesus is the most powerful man in all of history and today

    http://www.theeternalwisdom.com

    March 16, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
  2. Jacob

    Psalms 83:18: "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth."

    March 8, 2013 at 9:16 pm |
    • Austin

      Wassatmeen?

      March 8, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
  3. Leah's sis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fXB8ihepUpE

    March 7, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
  4. Liel

    משיח הוא אלוהים שלי

    February 28, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • Liel

      מאי הקדוש ביותר, הקדוש ביותר, מקסים ביותר,
      שם בלתי נתפס ובלתי ניתנים לתיאור ביותר של אלוהים
      שבח לנצח, מבורך, אהב, העריץ
      ופארתי שבשמים, על פני אדמה,
      ומתחת לאדמה,
      על ידי כל היצורים של אלוהים

      February 28, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
  5. Brandon

    Is God dirty enough for me? I responded to this article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brandon-ambrosino/clean-god-dirty-gays_b_2735351.html

    February 28, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
  6. uzohez

    i have seen none as foolish as you are.but this type of article is not worth publishing

    February 28, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
  7. JEFER

    Jesus was a dirty man, not a dirty God. Jesus wasn't God. Jesus was the Son of God. He was a man like you and I. Jesus got sick, got angry, and knew all human emotion. God gave Jesus the authority to do God's works on Earth. In Acts 2: 22 Peter says, “Men of Israel, listen to what I say: Jesus from Nazareth was a man whom God brought to your attention. You know that through this man God worked miracles, did amazing things, and gave signs." No matter what version you read, it is the same. Jesus is man, the Son of God, given the divine nature of God to do God's works on Earth. I can't understand why so many claim Jesus is God. He never asked to be worship. He simply wanted everyone to follow his works so they may have a true and faithful relationship with God, not bogged down by the religion of man.

    February 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
    • uzohez

      i can see how stupid these fools are.you will answer for this i will curse you all of you that are saying these nonsense.from today you will never have peace till you confess that JESUS IS THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS.

      February 28, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Madame Zeroni

      Oy! A curse?! I can do that too.

      Backatcha...

      February 28, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • JEFER

      @uzohez, I have peace. I know I am a child of God and live in faith because I have Christ within. I walk the path that God has made for me and know that no "weapon" shall hurt me. There will come a time when no man will know Jesus, but every man will know Christ. Until that time comes, man will be held down by religious doctrine made by man himself and used to control those who don't know God's truth. I know God's truth. I know Jesus is the Lord and savior, given God's great authority to bring God's children to salvation. Jesus sits at the Father's right hand and the Father will send His Son to us again one day. But I know that we must honor Jesus, not worship him. Not one is to be worship but the Father in Heaven. Your curse has know grounds because you walk in religion and not in faith, like many in this world.

      February 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Check

      JEFER,

      You don't think that you follow a "religion"?

      Where have you gotten any of your information about "Jesus"?

      Whether you know it or not, or want to admit it or not, every bit of this (unverified) information originally came from the writers for a 1st century cult RELIGION.

      February 28, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • JEFER

      @Check, I follow the religion of my heart. Whether you are Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Muslim, or Jewish, you follow the laws and doctrines that man created to keep all of their followers from running away. Many have turned it into a great financial system for themselves. I am free from that religion and follow what is on my heart.

      February 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • Check

      JEFER,

      How did this information get onto your "heart"? Does a New Guinea jungle native, for example, have this "Jesus" on his/her heart, without having read or heard that first century religion's writings?

      February 28, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • sam stone

      uzohez: fvck you and your curse

      February 28, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • Morrissey53

      Jefer,

      Know the totality of the scripture you are quoting- John 10:30 is as clear as it can be.

      February 28, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • G-Barner

      Morrissey53,

      The text you speak of is "I and the Father are one." I can see why you brought this up but I can also see JEFER's point. You believe Jesus and God are the same. JEFER believes that Jesus and God are different but Jesus is divine because of God's authority given to him. In my time, I have conversed with many priest, pastors, theologians, and religious leaders around the world and there are a growing number who are taking a point of view or belief that is like JEFER. We will never know who is right until the end, and we may all be wrong.

      March 1, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • *

      G-Barner,

      One thing that we do know – the plural of "priest" is "priests".

      You said: "pastors, theologians, and religious leaders", all pluralized with 's'. Why on Earth would you say "many priest"?

      March 1, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
  8. Jesus is..

    The great I AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bOHAGb3iwg8

    February 28, 2013 at 9:59 am |
  9. George

    So the whole point of this article was to tell people that Jesus goes to the bathroom? What the heck is wrong with people like you! Jesus is a clean person. Just because he is human does not mean he is not clean. He could do sin but he chose not to because he is clean inside. He died to clean all of the trash and filth that lies in a human's body.

    February 28, 2013 at 8:09 am |
    • sam stone

      Lots of conjecture there, George

      February 28, 2013 at 9:15 am |
  10. True Dichotomy

    Have faith and believe. So, far, your life has been based on small acts of faith, now start with the big ones.

    February 27, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • sam stone

      Have reason

      February 27, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • Hubert

      What acts of faith has my life been based on?

      February 28, 2013 at 1:04 am |
    • tony

      what ales you?JESUS is super clean.Except that he took on our filth.And that's the only thing that made him dirty.You dumb stupid moron.

      February 28, 2013 at 2:43 am |
  11. Doobs

    Nazism openly proclaimed its dependence on Darwin.2 It was right and moral for the strongest race to survive; to have pity for the weak was to defy nature’s laws. It is doubtful whether this brutal ideology would have so captivated the nation that gave us Bach and Luther if not for the ‘scientific’ underpinning of evolution.Communism also took evolution to its logical conclusion. If everything just evolved from ‘natural law,’ then man’s opinion, not God’s Word, determines what is right and wrong. If the working class can take power by armed struggle, then this is ‘right,’ regardless of how many must die to bring in the socialist paradise. Communism’s death toll far outranks the Nazis’—probably more than 90 million worldwide.Some have suggested that the bloodthirsty deeds of Stalin were an ‘aberration’ from the revolution’s ideals. However, it was Lenin, the ‘father’ of the Russian revolution, who ‘perfected the science of mass killings,’ and total, merciless brutality as the ultimate method of political control.4 Evolution was the chief tool used to brainwash communism’s masses into ‘scientific atheism.’ If everything just evolved, then everything is at the whim of the most powerful, and there is no Maker to whom to be answerable. Hence Stalin’s belief that killing millions of people was no worse than mowing your lawn (grass is our cousin in evolutionary doctrine). [Author's note added May 2012: while Stalin undoubtedly believed this, the notion that he said something like this appears to be a miscitatio Mao’s reign of terror and lies resulted in the deaths of tens of millions. It is no coincidence that his two favorite books were by the evolutionists Darwin and Huxley. With millions dying from his forced famine, his physician records that Mao said, ‘We have so many people we can afford to lose a few.’5 His successors have since persecuted and killed hundreds of thousands more.

    February 26, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • Doobs

      Prove its your name, liar

      February 28, 2013 at 7:07 am |
    • Doobs

      @ Fake Doobs

      I don't have to prove a thing. You are doing it for me. Anyone can read my other posts on this board and see who the liar is, you fool. You're terrible at trolling. But feel free to continue in your dishonesty. You prove that christians are lying, thieving hypocrites every time you post in someone else's name.

      Not only are you a liar and a thief, you're so stupid you think you're fooling people.

      I always know I've hit a sore spot when christian idiots like you steal my name.

      February 28, 2013 at 10:26 am |
  12. Doobs

    It’s not surprising that Darwin is accused of supporting eugenics. His first cousin, Francis Galton, was the one who coined the term! And Galton justified it by Darwin’s evolution And in 1912, Darwin’s son Leonard gave the presid address at the First Congress of Eugenics, a landmark gathering in London of racial biologists from Germany, the US.

    February 26, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Doobs

      Eugenics was even allowed by the Supreme Court, which had once declared slaves to be non-persons and now denies humanity to unborn babies.Ideas and funding from American eugenicists also inspired German eugenics research, which culminated in Josef Mengele’s horrific experiments on inmates at the Nazi camp Auschwitz.The American Eugenics Society began in 1922 and lasted as long as 1994. Famous evolutionist scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky was its chairman of the board in 1956, and also included ardent evolutionist scientists J.B.S. Haldane and Richard Lewontin as members.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
    • Doobs

      ‘Those who clung stubbornly to tradition, to doctrine, and to biblical infallibility opposed eugenics and became, for a time, the objects of derision for their rejection of this most modern science.

      February 26, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Fake Doobs

      Stealing someone's screen name and bearing false witness are sins. You're gonna burn!

      February 27, 2013 at 12:34 am |
    • Doobs

      @ Fake Doobs
      I am sure that the Lord will forgive you for lying, blasphemy, murdering the good name of His people, insulting,and harassing his saints if you just ask Him. He is loving and forgiving and everyday I ask Him to forgive me of my sins. He says if I ask He is faithful to forgive me and remember my sins no more. They are as far as the east is from the west, I will pray for you to receive Him and He will also forgive you your sins. Peace

      February 27, 2013 at 7:45 am |
    • Doobs

      @ Fake Doobs

      Why do you continue to steal my screen name and bear false witness? Anyone can check my previous posts and see that you are the fake one. You're not even good at it.

      Lying, thieving christian.

      February 27, 2013 at 10:11 am |
  13. Doobs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fw3yrcdNhbM

    February 26, 2013 at 9:16 pm |
    • Rick Wired

      This is rubbish. If you actually knew anything about evolution, and had the capability to distinguish scientific findings from religious nonsense, you would know that.

      February 28, 2013 at 10:24 am |
  14. Doobs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VTVOufIzyPY

    February 26, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Fake Doobs

      You're going to have to spend a lot of time on your knees begging for forgiveness for stealing and bearing false witness.

      Too bad you can't make your point without being deceptive. Just like your talking snake.

      Feel the burn!

      February 27, 2013 at 12:44 am |
  15. Liel

    Doobs, I can attest that God is benevolent from my personal experience, why not start in faith? seek him and pray to him so that he can provide you that direct personal evidence that he is a benevolent God. Why not give it an attempt?

    February 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • Doobs

      I responded in the original thread.

      February 26, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
    • David B

      so basically this god of yours wants us to play hide n seek with him? tell your god to grow up..

      February 26, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • End Religion

      Liel, obviously you have not read the bible. Have you even heard of it?

      February 26, 2013 at 7:42 pm |
  16. Doobs

    Like I mentioned before there is plenty of evidence for Jesus, it is just that won't see the evidence. You refuse to see the evidence. It is not that the evidence is not present.

    You're right, you did mention that there's plenty of evidence for Jeebus. You just haven't produced any of it. We can't see something that you haven't shown us yet.

    February 26, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
    • Doobs

      Oops, posted below where it belongs.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
  17. Hubert

    Liel

    You are completely ignoring the fact that the "doc.umentation" did not occur until decades after the event. This raises serious challenges to the doc.ument's credibility. And the personal experiences of believers are not acceptable evidence for God. Are the personal experiences of UFO abduction claimants evidence for aliens visiting earth?

    February 26, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
  18. Liel

    By most professional standards Direct personal and Oral evidence are acceptable.An example of direct personal would be you witnessing an American Idol Compet ition live, just because I was not there to witness it first hand does not mean it did not occur.

    February 26, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      That's still not evidence of it actually happening. Without anything to corroborate it (videos, recordings, pictures, etc.), then you cannot present it as evidence on its own.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • Liel

      Yes you were there to witness it(the idol compe ti tion) and you provided proof by doc umenting the evidence. Right?

      February 26, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      Truly, truly sad for you. Do you even know what you're putting down? Do you even realize that none of those people were born when Jesus was even alive?

      February 26, 2013 at 8:02 pm |
  19. Liel

    Direct Personal, External or Oral evidence?

    February 26, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
  20. Palo Alto

    Is it that the atheists can't see or, is it, that they won't see the evidence for God

    February 26, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Or, it could be that there has been no evidence presented as of yet.

      February 26, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • Liel

      What evidence do you seek Mr.Atheist?

      February 26, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      Evidence is evidence and stands on it's own merits. If you need to ask "what evidence do you want", I think you might need to really think about what you consider "evidence".

      February 26, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • Liel

      There can be different kinds of evidence, posting it again.
      Direct Personal, External or Oral evidence?

      February 26, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Define each, but I will immediately dismiss Personal and Oral.
      This is because it is unverfiable, intentionally subjective, and if it happened to someone else, heresay at best.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • Liel

      By most professional standards Direct personal and Oral evidence are acceptable.An example of direct personal would be you witnessing an American Idol Compet ition live, just because I was not there to witness it first hand does not mean it did not occur.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      That's still not evidence of it actually happening. Without anything to corroborate it (videos, recordings, pictures, etc.), then you cannot present it as evidence on its own.
      Also, please cite where these "professional standards" are laid out that accepts heresay as evidence on its own.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • Liel

      As a person who is involved with evidence gathering I can tell you all of the above are acceptable.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Hubert

      @Liel

      Direct personal experience is acceptable when you are dealing with ordinary claims. But what if I claimed that I had witnessed a dragon flying through the sky? Would you believe that claim with out seeing it for your self? Would you believe it even if you had seen it for your self or would think you were hallucinating? For extraordinary claims the only acceptable form of evidence is experimental evidence.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • Liel

      There is no such thing called an 'experimental evidence'

      A historical , life changing event happened 2000 years ago. This event changed human history. Evidence gathered from those present at the event is acceptable.This becomes an external evidence to a person living in this day and age.
      All believers can attest to a direct personal evidence of Almighty God in their lives.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • Hubert

      Liel

      What type of evidence do you believe that scientific discipline operate on? And while you can't experimentally examine historical claims you can experimentally examine the claim that God exist? You simply have to define the characteristics of God, something most Christians are unwilling to do.

      Now, I do agree that an event happened about 2000 years ago that changed the course of history, but you must remember that the story of those who witnessed the events weren't written down until at least 30, and some scholars say 60, years after the events happened. so their miraculous claims must be taken with a grain of salt, epically considering the disciples were mostly illiterate.

      And you never answered my question. Would you believe me I f I claimed to have seen a dragon?

      February 26, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Liel

      What scientific evidence are we talking about when it comes to God. They are independent of each other. Science can and never attempts to prove or disprove God, that is not what science is for.
      A historical life changing event has been doc u mented substantially and this evidence has thereafter been corroborated by millions of believers for more than 20 centuries in the form of direct personal evidence.

      February 26, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • Hubert

      Liel

      You are completely ignoring the fact that the "doc.umentation" did not occur until decades after the event. This raises serious challenges to the doc.ument's credibility. And the personal experiences of believers are not acceptable evidence for God. Are the personal experiences of UFO abduction claimants evidence for aliens visiting earth?

      February 26, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
    • OTOH

      Liel,
      "this evidence has thereafter been corroborated by millions of believers for more than 20 centuries in the form of direct personal evidence."

      Really? What...?

      Over 2,000 years now and still 2/3rds of the world does not believe the Jesus legend. It took probably less than 50 years for the theory of gravity to be accepted world-wide... and it is the same for any other proven ideas; eg., mathematics, the telephone, radio, engines, penicillin, etc., etc., etc.

      The population of the world at present is a bit over 7 billion.
      There are approximately 2.1 billion Christians, which is around 33 per cent.
      http://chartsbin.com/view/3nr
      http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904108.html

      February 26, 2013 at 6:24 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      You can make any kind of claim to your work you want on here. Doesn't make you credible. Cite where the standards are laid out and show that heresay evidence is enough in any area of study.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • Liel

      History has always been recorded after the fact and not before, otherwise it become a prophecy.Therefore, your grounds are unsubstantiated and lacks merit .
      There is more evidence both by direct eye witness as well as by multiple other historians of his time.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:33 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ Liel

      A historical life changing event has been doc u mented substantially and this evidence has thereafter been corroborated by millions of believers for more than 20 centuries in the form of direct personal evidence.

      Bullshit. This "historical life changing event" has very little evidence, and a lot of that is open to dispute, and it's only regarding a human being who may or may not have been called Jesus or Christos. There is absolutely no evidence of his divinity. A lot of people believe, and they feel it's true, but feelings are not evidence. There is no evidence of any miracles, serious illness or injury curings, raisings from the dead, new jobs, big game wins, huge bonuses, good parking places, or anything else that can be attributed to your god or any god.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      "There is more evidence both by direct eye witness as well as by multiple other historians of his time"

      That's a complete lie and you know it. The earliest extrabiblical mention of jesus is well over 40 years after his supposed death. Not only does it not claim anything supernatural, it merely mentions him in passing as the brother of James.
      You have not come anywhere near providing evidence of anything other than
      "People believed something different
      they changed the way they acted"
      I can give you examples from multiple religions of the exact same thing. Does that mean they're true as well? This is what you're proposing.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
    • Liel

      As the root poster has mentioned I don't believe you can say that you can't see, it just that you won't see the evidence presented.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      So instead of actually addressing posts and doing anything resembling defending your postiion with logic and evidence, you fall back to the standard "Well you just don't want to see it, so there. And I'm right because I say so".
      Pathetic.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • Doobs

      As the root poster has mentioned I don't believe you can say that you can't see, it just that you won't see the evidence presented.

      Translation: "I got nuttin'."

      February 26, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • Liel

      Like I mentioned before there is plenty of evidence for Jesus, it is just that won't see the evidence. You refuse to see the evidence. It is not that the evidence is not present.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • Liel

      It is like you screaming it is dark when it is broad daylight by just refusing to open your eyes.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      And you have yet to present a single thing. In fact, you can't even show that you're aware of what constitutes evidence and what doesn't. You can continue to repeat the age old christian apologetic mantra to make yourself feel better, but that doesn't change the fact that you haven't presented absolutely nothing to support your unjustified position.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
    • Doobs

      Like I mentioned before there is plenty of evidence for Jesus, it is just that won't see the evidence. You refuse to see the evidence. It is not that the evidence is not present.

      You're right, you did mention that there's plenty of evidence for Jeebus. You just haven't produced any of it. We can't see something that you haven't shown us yet.

      February 26, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
    • Liel

      I am copying from another article on this blog posted by another poster on this blog for your edification, I think this person did a great job in putting this together.

      In summary, what can we conclude about the figure of Jesus Christ by only listening to non-Christians of the first centuries? That he was an invented myth? Absolutely not. Just by listening to Jesus’ enemies and outsiders, we can put together the following profile on Christ and his influence; the sum of which positively affirms the believability of the Bible and deity of his person
      Jesus was a wise man and was called the Christ or Messiah, (Josephus)
      Jesus gained many disciples from many nations, (Josephus)
      He healed blind and lame people in Bethsaida and Bethany, (Julian the Apostate)
      He was accused of practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray, (the Talmud)
      Under Herod, and during the reign of Tiberius, Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to die, (Tacitus)
      Christ was crucified on the eve of Passover, (the Talmud)
      His crucifixion was accompanied by three hours of unexplained darkness, (Thallus)
      Christ’s disciples, “reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;”, (Josephus)
      His disciples took to the habit of meeting on a fixed day of the week and took their name “Christians” from him, (Pliny)
      They gave worship to Christ “as to a god”, (Pliny)
      They bound themselves over to abstaining from wicked deeds, fraud, theft, adultery, and lying, (Pliny)
      Christians held a contempt for death and were known for a voluntary self-devotion, (Lucian)
      Christians believed themselves all brothers from the moment of their conversion, (Lucian)
      Christians lived after Christ’s laws, (Lucian)
      Christians were willingly tortured and even executed for their refusal to deny their belief in the resurrection and deity of Jesus Christ. (Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny, Lucian)

      February 26, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
    • Doobs

      It is like you screaming it is dark when it is broad daylight by just refusing to open your eyes.

      Liel, you are completely mistaken. I would love to believe that there's a benevolent god and an afterlife. I think most nonbelievers would love to live on after this life, although your version of heaven sounds terribly boring, and the god of your bible sounds like a monster.

      I just buried a dear friend yesterday, don't you think I'd love to believe I'll see him again one day? If you could only show me verifiable, independent evidence of your benevolent god, I can assure you that I'd have a good, long look at it.

      February 26, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • Liel

      Doobs, I can attest that God is benevolent from my personal experience, why not start in faith? seek him and pray to him so that he can provide you that direct personal evidence that he is a benevolent God. Why not give it an attempt?

      February 26, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • Pete

      Liel most of the atheists posting here are former xtians or ministers. You're preaching to the wrong crowd. They probably know the bible better than you.

      February 26, 2013 at 7:13 pm |
    • Doobs

      Liel, like many christians, you assume that I haven't done that. I did, for more than 50 years, as both a catholic and a fundie. I've read the bible cover to cover dozens of times and had formal study in it for years. I've made thousands of attempts to find god. Are you going to tell me that I did it wrong all those times? Or that god is just testing my faith and maybe the next time I'll hear from him?

      You'd make a good carny.

      February 26, 2013 at 7:16 pm |
    • OTOH

      Liel,
      "I am copying from another article on this blog posted by another poster on this blog for your edification, I think this person did a great job in putting this together."

      1. All of those historians lived long after the alleged lifetime of Jesus. They reported what the new Christian cult claimed about their legendary hero. That's all. Not a one of them witnessed a single 'miracle' or deity-proving event.

      2. Did you notice that the poster who copy/pasted that article stole the screen name of a frequent atheist poster? And that larcenous poster copied/pasted from another author's web site and did not give attribution to him/her.

      February 26, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Liel

      Truly, truly sad for you. Do you even know what you're putting down? Do you even realize that none of those people were born when Jesus was even alive?

      February 26, 2013 at 8:10 pm |
    • sam stone

      or is it that theists are delusional?

      February 27, 2013 at 1:40 am |
    • WASP

      @LIEL: "liel, I can attest that ODIN is benevolent from my personal experience, why not start in faith? seek him and pray to him so that he can provide you that direct personal evidence that he is a benevolent God. Why not give it an attempt?"

      "LIEL, I can attest that SHIVA is benevolent from my personal experience, why not start in faith? seek him and pray to her so that she can provide you that direct personal evidence that she is a benevolent Goddess. Why not give it an attempt?"

      "liel, I can attest that WASP is benevolent from my personal experience, why not start in faith? seek him and pray to him so that he can provide you that direct personal evidence that he is a benevolent God. Why not give it an attempt?"

      SEE HOW EASY OTHER NAMES FIT INTO YOUR LITTLE SPEEL?
      you place your "god" in there because you were taught to, just as everyone else throughout human history was 100% certain their "god/goddess" was so real that they would fight and die for that idea.

      no gods required for happiness or anything else in this universe.

      February 28, 2013 at 7:16 am |
    • Liel

      WASP-Define happiness.

      February 28, 2013 at 10:37 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.