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January 6th, 2013
07:28 AM ET
College students raise funds to fight slaveryBy Jordan Hultine, CNN Atlanta (CNN)–More than 60,000 young Christians packed the Georgia Dome in Atlanta for worship and inspiration at the Passion 2013 conference that wrapped up on Friday. They came together from 56 countries and 2,300 universities, according to organizers, “to shine a light on modern-day slavery.” “We believe when you fill a dome full of people who say they follow Jesus, there should be some tangible action,” said Bryson Vogeltanz, chief steward of Passion’s freedom initiative. That tangible action came in the form of tens of thousands of towels and socks donated by conference-goers to be handed out at local homeless shelters in the weeks following the conference. Vogeltanz and his team also wanted a global initiative. They focused on four key goals, which they called awake, prevent, rescue and restore. They identified 19 nonprofit organizations working around the world to eradicate modern-day slavery and human trafficking. The organizations were showcased during the conference and students and volunteers had the opportunity to donate money to the cause. Follow the Belief Blog on Twitter The United Nations estimates 27 million people are entrapped in modern-day slavery at any given time around the world in a market valued at $32 billion. Last year, Hagar International was one of the recipients of those donations. Hagar helps women and children recovering from horrific abuse and human trafficking in Cambodia, Afghanistan and Vietnam. “We have been able to serve children who have been released from egregious abuse of being trafficked for sex, both boys and girls, in Cambodia,” said Jane Tafel of Hagar. “Those children have a new life now because of Passion 2012.” Tafel returned to the conference this year for the organization and was anxiously waiting to hear final donation numbers. Wellspring Living, an organization that provides restorative services for girls who have been trafficked or suffered sexual abuse, said it was able to open a new transition facility as a result of the gifts that conference-goers gave last year, according to president and CEO Mary Frances Bowley. Read More: The new Christian abolition movement “This generation has the potential not just to end slavery, they have the potential to do anything,” Vogeltanz said. “Jesus was the original abolitionist. We’re just following what he’s already done in our lives for us," he said, referring to the Christian belief that Jesus saved all mankind from slavery and sin. Students spent each day of the four-day conference participating in “community group” learning sessions and praise and worship led by well-known Christian musicians like Chris Tomlin. An Atlanta-based pastor, Louie Giglio, started Passion in 1997. The goal, he said, was to see college students around the world “awaken to the reality of an omnipotent and glorious Creator.” Since then, organizers said, millions of students have joined the movement at Passion events around the world. Sarah Stone is a college student from Atlanta who came to Passion with her church group. She said she came looking for a way to live her faith more fully. “Christianity is not just about saying a prayer and going to church on Sunday, it’s about living for Christ with every single thing you do,” Stone said. CNN's Belief Blog the faith angles behind the day's big stories Belmont University student William Dodd said it’s inspiring to be surrounded by so many other college students who are gathered for the same purpose, and he is leaving with a desire to “get in the fight to end (slavery). God made us powerful creatures with a really big voice.” “It’s inspiring to see a generation so engaged and looking out of themselves and looking at things like slavery and actually committing to making people aware of it - and it’s only the beginning,” said Jolie, who declined to give her last name, a conference volunteer who traveled from Australia to be a part of the Passion. Passion organizers said the students gave $3,170,639 in support of their freedom initiative. Beyond fund-raising, organizers said, the goal was to shine a light on a worldwide problem and to inspire action. Ramses Prashad, a college student from Orlando, Florida, said he has no other choice but to make a change when he gets home. “I can’t say that I didn’t know and say I wasn’t aware, so I have no other choice but to raise awareness and to do as much as I can for the cause and for the people.” |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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It pleases me to see that a new, idealistic bunch are rendering the Old-testament Bible irrelevant in modern life. Jesus is supposed to have said "treat everyone as you would wish to be treated". Many right-wingers can't bear the thought of that, but these kids seem like they get it. They have embraced the "Liberal" known as Jesus. I truly hope their SUV-driving, GOP voting parents are vainly praying for their lost souls..... 🙂
Gubmint worker?
Hipe Hopes, idealstic. Just wait until the 1-2% ers shaft them into "slavery" by another name, low wages, no health care, no education, no ladders, no safety nets.......just go to Church and be "The Help"
Why did you capitalize "church"? Are you an idiot?
People with sizeable debt and no economic safety net have only their parents to blame for not preparing them for the real world. This mythical 1% you speak of has no bearing on how profitable your own life is, or whether or not you have the intelligence to find your own fortune.
What are these slap happy christians so worried about? Their god loves slavery. Perhaps they should read the bible. There are just too many places in which slavery is advocated in to list them here. Ok, just a couple for the sake of reference:
Leviticus 22:11
1 Peter 2:18
You're forgetting the historical context behind those verses. But it's ok, I forgive you.
the historical context makes zero difference. God condoned slavery. When you pretend to legitimize the bible as righteous, you advocate for slavery, violence and its other absurdities. You can pretend its all about love yet it plainly is not.
You're telling Christians to read the scriptures? What's wrong with this picture?
Do they realize that they will have to pay more for their iPads?
Then maybe they get to work on female suffrage and the 40-hour work week?
Women were created to help their hubbies, not work for a son of the Beast corp.
hawaiiguest
“right, like don't beat your slaves so they die immediately or a day or two.”
=>That is right don’t do that to your slaves
“ If they die after two days, meh that's okay they're your property.”
=>it is not ok. Jesus paid a heavy price for sin like that.
“ Hebrew slaves married off to another slave so he would have to choose life-long slavery or leaving their family.”
=>sounds very twisted what verse are you speaking about?
“You are willing to completely accept immorality in the name of your god. “
=>that is far from the truth and I am not willing to accept immorality personally. It would further be a sin for me to accept it in the name of God.
thanks again for proving to everyone there is no god! Big help, there, friend.
The point, end religions, is not that any gods exist, but wether fred has the right to think that they do. I say he does have a right to his own opinions and thoughts.
of course has the right to an opinion, and i have the right to express his opinion as ludicrous. He has condoned slavery in the name of his imaginary sky buddy. I find it insulting and dangerous.
NIV is a JW bible. You know what they did.
@End Religion : if there is God as expressed through the Bible then Slavery would not be condoned by God ... therefore, there is no god as expressed in the bible
You get an "A" for using the philiosphical format and a "F" for the non sequitur logic fallacy. Your first premise is a conclusion, rather than fact based.
My first "premise" was a "fact" supplied to me by a Religitard who was supporting slavery based on the mere biblical assertion that god supports it, and then when cornered chose to pretend to know the mind of his god. You and he are the same, you just haven't stepped into as big a pile of shit yet. If you stay here long enough you will. But I really shouldn't celebrate. Your position is so absurd and tenuous it takes quite a bit of tap dancing skill to *not* fall into the pile.
Educratists are experts at turning out slaves.........Admissions, "You need a degree."....Kid, "Where do I get one?".....Admissions, "Us."....Kid, "How much is it gonna cost?"............Admissions, "How much you got?".........Kid, "Not much at all.".............Admissions, "We'll loan it to you."........Kid, "Wow, that sure is a big figure. How long to pay it off?".......Admissions, "Kid, you worry too much. Think about your DREAMS."........Kid, "Those are the president's dreams."........Admissions, "Exactly, and ours, too. PUblic Servants and corp servants need degrees.".....Kid, "Why don't the corps pay for their own needs?"......Admissions, "Don't have to. They talked you into payin'. 'Sides they're friends. So are Public Servants and we taught them, too You don't have to worry 'bout payments".................."Pro 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower [is] servant to the lender."
it is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions.
Richard Dawkins
Dawkins is a Hindu?
In my twenties and thirties I didn't want anything to do with all that "churchy" stuff either. But those years are long gone and they went by quickly. Now, I don't mind so much. I like Christians. I'm always happy to have someone to share a happy idea about death. Believe me, oblivion is no happy idea as you get closer and closer to it each day.
Besides, this discussion should be about ending slavery shouldn't it, not a conversation on the merrits of Christianity?
Religion will cloak your insecurities. Just abandon all reason and religion will keep you warm and cozy as you doze off into eternity.
end of religon-
Atheism will also cloak your insecurities. Just abandon all humility (you really do have it all figured out don’t you?) and atheism will keep you warm and cozy as you doze off into eternity. It works both ways...
I do not have it all figured out. There may be a creator however there is no proof of any such creature. I do understand there are no imaginary creatures and in particular the abrahamic god does not exist.
"End Religion sayz,
I do not have it all figured out............" Well, why don't you run along to the library and check out some good books? Try the Library of Alexandria.
I can't stand labeling people based on their religion. It's like labeling people based on their race. Why not just say college students end slavery. A whole lot of people are Christians and then not again, or atheists and then not again. What we are saying to people is you can't be part of my "tribe" if you don't think what I think.
Patriotism, son.
That's the motto of every religion. Christianity is purposefully excluding to nonbelievers, which is how the followers have so easily justified the enslavement, torture, or genocide of other peoples throughout history.
Wait I am confused...I feel like the comments on here should be about how this group is trying to do something good regardless of whether or not it is because they are Christians. Do we disagree that children being used and abused is wrong? If we don't disgree then why are we ripping each other apart rather than supporting the end of a practice that is not only sickening but extremely detrimental to these children and the society that we live in?
Very well said. There is no excuse for human slavery.
There are plenty of excuses.
because atheists are becoming exactly what they hate about Christians… actually worse.
Atheists are without question: insecure, defensive, and predictable.
@Bacbac.......... Big fat lie there buddy... you just can't make this stuff up!... oh wait, you just did.
Christian belief has been used to JUSTIFY slavery for centuries. I would feel sorry for delusional religious people if they would just SHUT UP and practice their delusions in private, instead of preaching. As it is they just disgust me. I don't know any xstians who just vomit all over the table when people are there eating. Why can't they realize that this is the effect they have on society when they start quoting the bible.?
I know alot of Christians who clean up the vomit of people who do vomit all over the table while they are eating. They are called nurses. And even though I am a skeptic they can pray over my mom anythime they want.
Daaaaahwin sayz, "...........they just disgust me..........." Quit hanging with the 98.8% chimps, chump. Then you won't puke.
These young people ARE SLAVES to religion, which is psychological and intellectual slavery. They were enslaved by their parents and community, and many will enslave THEIR children. Forcing a child into a RELIGION IS CHILD ABUSE (and slavery.)
Not everybody feels about religion the way you do. Many people with religions choose to have them, and often they choose to have one different than what their parents decided they should have.
Daaaahhwin is not into praying to the Father. Like most Socialists, he's into praying like this, "Our fadder, who art in Washington, hollow is thy name....."
Both the old testament and the new testament condone slavery.
How on earth do these Christians get their heads around this fact ?
Sam,
If you mean by slavery something to the effect of "treat people inhumanely" – this would be false. The bible does not teach for people to treat another person in a way that is not loving or just. I can give you what I see as answers, unless that is not what you are looking for here.
@Sam...My NLT(Bible) in Luke goes to 14:35, try reading Luke 15:4-.......hope it helps.
Interesting. Sometime the next day before someone responds to Sam's question, and I don't see much of a response. I have asked a similar question for the article "Giglio bows out of inauguration over sermon on gays" (page 16).
Sam
What is your real agenda when you twist a few verses in order to give believers a bad name ( I suspect it is simply part of an orchestrated assault by non believers against the Bible)?
The Bible does not condone slavery and God does not condone slavery if you are implying slavery better termed African Slave Trade.
The Bible is a moving picture and you have gone back to the days shortly after the Exodus. God warned the Chosen ones “I am the Lord your God who has delivered you out of slavery”. Exactly what do you not understand about what God is telling His own people? Slavery is bad, slavery is a terrible thing to put a people under. The Hebrew have great ceremony and traditions surrounding the wonderful love of God that put an end to slavery.
Sam get your head around this; The Bible reveals the attribute of God that frees people from slavery and bondage in the books you pull you verses from. I certainly hope you never write a post or draw a conclusion from one of my presentations.
And here comes the standard "the bible doesn't say what it says" bullshit.
hawaiiguest
That is exactly what the Bible says about slavery.
Let me put it in terms you might understand since we are not allowed to use the bible word anymore in America:
We have a city law that says if anyone walks across the street outside of the crosswalk that Jay walker will be fined.
To this Sam writes a post “the city condones jay walking”. Sam keeps repeating his lie over and over until everyone hates that city. Twenty years later the Mayor trys to give a speach in a different town but it is censored because he is a hateful person.
@fred
Yes keep lying when you have to run away like a little fucking coward from every conversation you get in. When you can't even answer a fucking question with any kind of honesty.
hawaiiguest
have noticed this is your standard reply whenever a believer presents you with a truth that cannot be denied:
“Yes keep lying when you have to run away like a little f#$%^&ing coward from every conversation you get in. When you can't even answer a %$#@&*ing question with any kind of honesty.”
Now, on the issue of the same verses Dawkins demans his followers pepper blogs with. My reply to Sam stands.
The old testament books (where these verses on slavery are pulled from) have not changed in 3,400 years. Gods will and purpose for the Hebrew as expressed in these books has not changed. It was clear to the audiance 3,400 years ago and it is clear today:
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery"
"do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’”
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high
Conclusion: God does not condone slavery. The Bible does not condone slavery
@fred
And yet gives guidelines for owning, purchasing, and keeping slaves.
hawaiiguest
Just so we are on the same page what specific versers are you suggesting
@fred
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21: 2-11
Just to name a few.
Everyone strap in, the spin is about to start.
[crickets]
... fred...?
Evidently, since god says its OK, someone must have purchased Fred as a servant. Fred is currently reading the bible to learn how he must treat his new Master.
hawaiiguest
Leviticus 25 relates to the Israelites in the land they entered (Canaan) with your specific verses (44-46) related to the year of Jubilee and what happens to Bondmen and Bondmaids at that time. The main point you need to keep clear up front is that we are speaking about Bondmen and Bondmaids not the slaves that typically come to mind often summarized as the African Slave Trade of recent history.
1)The standard line of apologetics is that these Bondmen and Bondmaids which could only be purchased from the surrounding nations were treated ruthlessly and oppressed by these Heathens. Consider the worst imaginable as the nations that sold them were of the wickedness like those drowned in the great flood.
These “slaves” of the Amorites and Moabites were jumping for joy to be with a godly people. They were rescued from darkness.
2)This provision only applied to the Israelites in the land of Canaan (i.e. not an excuse for the African Slave Trade) specific to who gets set free and who does not in Jubilee year.
3)Every section such as the one containing your verse begins and ends with the warning you are not to mistreat others.
4)Over riding everything is the prime directive to be a Holy, Pure and Worthy people (i.e. Christlike)
5)God did not condone it as God works in and through the people where they are in life not a hypothetical state where they should be.
Yes, God allowed it saying you "may" purchase slaves just as God allowed Solomon to have 700+wives. God did not wink at it God allowed it just as earthquakes are allowed.
hawaiiguest
Exodus 21:2-11 relates to Hebrew Servants and has nothing to do with Bondmen or Bondmaids. All Hebrews were servants of God to begin with. That was the basis on which all servants are to be treated (I.e. freed them, protected them, God so loved the world etc.). I don’t imagine you want to split hairs over labor economics of 1446 BC.
nd there we have the typical next argument. After they refuse to believe god could condone slavery, they finally come around to say "yes, ok, he did condone it, but these slaves are 'different' – they had it GREAT!"
Your pathetic god condones slavery and you are tap dancing while throwing glitter in the air with hope we won't notice that you are doing the same disgusting thing.
@fred
THEY WERE FUCKING CONSIDERED PROPERTY!
@everyone else
This is the consequence of religion. This is what you lose, your fucking human decency! You become willing to justify and brush off EVIL DOCTRINES that were never right to begin with. You become complacent in your ignorance, and the only thought is how far do I need to contort myself to rationalize this bullshit away.
We have here a person who is willing to transform the word slave, to mean something more like hired fucking help! Someone who is completely willing to ignore that they were property, and could be beaten, sold, or what have you!
End Religion
Bingo!
Yes, I was purchased for a price. That would be the finished work of Christ on the Cross in full atonement of sin. I am a servant and God is my Master. I usually do not use those words but in the context of this thread they are spot on.
hawaiiguest
Let me frame it so you can understand given you short circuit at the mention of Christ:
You are better off as a citizen living in Hawaii under the umbrella of a God fearing Nation then you would be as the wife of the Ayatollah in Iraq.
@fred
And you still cannot fucking address the point. You're just pathetic fred. Tell me, do you try this dishonest bullshit in real life? Do people actually let you get away with complete dishonesty in real life? You cowardly little shit.
hawaiiguest
I could not address the point any more conscise based on your response. You know you are better off as an indentured servant (the first 5 months of every year all my income goes to paying taxes. After my mortgage, retirement savings and cost of living I have about 4% do anything I want with) than in bondage as the wife of Ayatollah in Iraq
You need to get real.
@fred
And you need to fucking get real about what's in your fucking bible instead of using irrelevant bullshit to avoid it.
You cannot apply today’s ideas of slavery to a necessary economic model from 1446 BC. God did not change the economy of Rome when Christ stepped on seen as God works with what is not what should be or could have been. Eve did not need to eat the apple and God did not need to plant the tree………..sorry but we live in reality and what actually is not what could or could not have been.
God says to the Israelites when you go into the Land of Canaan. You may buy slaves……..
God did not establish slavery or condone it as it existed and was the viable economic model in 1446 BC Canaan. We both know slavery is wrong today as is working 3 jobs to feed a family while some get free handouts from the Government. Economic models are not necessarily fair or ideal. In 3,400 years indentured servants (like me) may be viewed as barbaric slavery under oppressive monopolies.
@fred
Yes or No.
Is it morally wrong to own another person as property?
My two cents
Not if there's legal consent.
hawaiiguest
James the brother of Jesus did a good job summarizing the wisdom of God: But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [m]reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.
Making a pathway for brutalized slaves in other nations to find refuge in the Hebrew camp even if as Bondservants or Bondmen/bondmaids fits that image. Ending slavery at that moment would have created greater economic harm………..the end to the Hebrew and the rise of brutality.
@fred
And there's the irrelevant bullshit. This is why you're a pathetic fuck fred, you cannot even answer a simple fucking question.
@Rational Libertarian
interesting thought
@hawaiiguest
I go with Rational Libertarian. If I want to be a life time bondmaid to the Hebrew of 1446 BC instead of getting ra-ped every day in the Amorite camp I am all for it.
Today generally speaking it is flat out wrong to own another person as property so my direct answer is YES it is morally wrong in todays socioeconomic environment to own another person.
I'm no Biblical scholar although I'm relatively knowledgeable concerning contract law and in my opinion, all slavery evident in the Bible is non contractual without all parties' consent, therefore it is wrong.
@fred
Daily rape in the amorite camp? I don't remember that part. And I would rather die than kowtow to a roaming band of thugs killing, raping, and threatening everyone like the Israelites supposedly did.
Rational Libertarian
I am with you on that
@hawaiiguest
I really don't know what the socio economic climate was in 1446BC Canaan except for what the Hebrews themselves claim. I take their word for it since it is the only story we have on that specific subject. There are outside soruces that talk about the economic necessity of slavery in the old days but nothing independent as to the nations that the Israelites purchased slaves from. If you want to say God condoned it because he could have stopped it I could agree God allowed it but we don't know why.
@fred
Another basic non-answer. Your god apparently didn't think to tell them "Hey, owning another person as property is not a good thing".
hawaiiguest
So what would have been the result if God said Hey no slaves? You imply that would have somehow produced a different result. The record of the Bible is clear in that these Hebrews did not obey God on the big stuff why would they obey on the small stuff. The Bible says no to ho-mo$exual relations and that has not stopped anyone. As a matter of fact today in the U.S. we are more like the nations that surrounded the Hebrews which were considered so immoral the Hebrews had to separate themselves.
I don’t know if that is why did not use your plan instead of Gods plan.
Speaking of which you never told me how your plan is better than God’s
@fred
If that were the case, why say anything at all? Why give all 623 laws in the old testament?
BTW, your whole "what's your plan huh huh huh?" idiocy is merely another pathetic attempt to switch the conversation away from something you have no good defense for.
hawaiiguest
The law pointed out that they were sinners and could not keep the law. Cain for example thought he was just fine as did all those drowned by the flood. We need to know what is sinful if we are to be held accountable.
So then keeping slaves is a part of your gods laws.
hawaiiguest
No, keeping slaves was the custom and an economic necessity for survival in 1446BC Canaan. Gods laws placed limits on evil that was inherent with slave ownership in 1446BC. Gods laws demanded kindness and proper behavior with slaves. This is in stark contrast with the custom of other nations that were brutal and ruthless with slaves.
"hawaiiguest sayz.
@fred
And yet gives guidelines for owning, purchasing, and keeping slaves."..... Sometimes it's not, "Take no prisoners." Higay never sees mercy. He's not pure in heart.
So god wants you to be kind to the human chattel you possess with his blessing.
End Religion
Perhaps a better example would help. You have lost your legs. God deals with you where you are without legs.
Now in 1446BC you owned slaves they are part of your household call it what you want. They are not property like a dog was property to the Moabites. They are to be treated very different than Egypt treated the Israelites for 430 years when they themselves were slaves.
Now, here are some rules to follow when you buy slaves that apply to the Israelites in the Land of Canaan.
That is all we can about those verses. With the exception of theological tie to saved and non saved heathens.
You keep restating bible passages as if putting it in some other light justifies your ignorance. It doesn't. Your abhorrent god promotes slavery; owning other humans; chattel; no matter how nice you are about it. You are jumping hoops and tap dancing to justify it as well. This is one reason your religion is dying. Use all the glitter you want. You and your religion are sick. Good riddens to the religion; hopefully you can become a better person without it.
End Religion
31,000 passages in the Bible and you found a few regarding slavery so you say good riddance to God? Just how logical is that!
If God said look in 3,200 years slavery will be a thing of the past with the exception of a few developing Nations . Let’s just use labor economics of those Nations today. Oopps I guess we better learn to read and write first.
It just does not work that way. You are living in a dream world. This is reality where civilizations have grown and advanced generationally over thousands of years. What reality do you fast forward 3,000 into and suddenly posses the skills to survive in that world?
Your next argument is that if there is God then God should just snap a finger and bingo perfect world? That would mean our reality in which we exist is one without purpose and meaning thus it has no extrinsic or intrinsic value. That is the atheist position and that is contrary to what you know to be true. Your belief system is self contradicting.
@fraud: thanks for correcting "riddance" for me
***
"31,000 passages in the Bible and you found a few regarding slavery so you say good riddance to God? Just how logical is that!"
Stay on topic. We're talking about god's condoning and your justification for owning human chattel.
***
"You are living in a dream world."
so says the dude who talks to imaginary creatures and pretends they command respect.
***
"What reality do you fast forward 3,000 into and suddenly posses the skills to survive in that world?"
Wait.... is your fluctuating argument now: "I support slavery because humans needed slaves to survive until today"?
End Religion
End Religion
I am not trying to be insulting or anything like that against atheists or non believers so please do not take my comments personally. I just ran out of words to explain that if there is God as expressed through the Bible then Slavery would not be condoned by God. The fact God allows it and only put a fence around harsh treatment, in the verse being discussed, would be for a reason or purpose we can only speculate about.
Thank you, Fred. After thousands of years we have actual proof the Christian God does not exist. BEHOLD!
1) if there is God as expressed through the Bible then Slavery would not be condoned by God
2) the passages we've examined clearly show god condones slavery
3) therefore, there is no god as expressed in the bible
End Religion
Ooppps
You could have saved me a lot of trouble by just referring to Webster’s Dictionary.
Verb
1. Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
2. Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance.
Looks like I was wrong God does condone what most translations of the bible call slaves and slavery.
End Religion
Those who would treat slaves in any way that is not loving or kind would suffer consequence for it from God. God thus only allows and accepts slavery that is a blessing to the slave.
"........a blessing to the slave." You sure you want to stick with that ?
@fred
Harsh treatment, right, like don't beat your slaves so they die immediately or a day or two. If they die after two days, meh that's okay they're your property. So civilized. Or getting your Hebrew slaves married off to another slave so he would have to choose life-long slavery or leaving their family.
You're fucking pathetic fred. You are willing to completely accept immorality in the name of your god. Why, I bet you'd kill people if the voices in your head told you to.
midwest
Yes, we are to be blessings to others and that is acceptable and pleasing to God. It continues with the original theme of the Bible where God created and said it is very good.
I was thinking of visiting a church tomorrow but now that fred has shown me there is no god I won't waste my time. Thanks, Fred!
Actually, the central event of the Old Testament is the FREEING of slaves, and it's probably the first thing ever written that WAS about that, and the first thing ever written that placed any RESTRICTIONS on slavery.
And the first important person in history to completely oppose slavery in all its forms was St. Patrick.
Christianity came to Scandinavia, and shortly thereafter, slavery ended.
It was then outlawed by canon law – first for Christians, later for everyone. It disappeared in stages. By the 10th century it was GONE in the Christian nations of Europe, and it wasn't gone anyplace else.
It ended in England through the efforts of an evangelical named Willliam Wilberforce.
The United States is a SECULAR country. And was the LAST to end slavery. The officially Christian nations of Europe beat us to it by quite a lot. When it did end here, it was through the efforts of the Abolitionists – a religious movement that sang "Glory, glory Hallelujah." And preachers like Charles Finney, Henry Ward Beecher and Beecher's sister, Harriet Beecher Stowe, who wrote an extremely religious book called "Uncle Tom's Cabin."
These young people are following a VERY Christian tradition.
Thanks Ignatzz ! Nice simple and clear summary.
hawaiiguest
“right, like don't beat your slaves so they die immediately or a day or two.”
=>That is right don’t do that to your slaves
“ If they die after two days, meh that's okay they're your property.”
=>it is not ok. Jesus paid a heavy price for sin like that.
“ Hebrew slaves married off to another slave so he would have to choose life-long slavery or leaving their family.”
=>sounds very twisted what verse are you speaking about?
“You are willing to completely accept immorality in the name of your god. “
=>that is far from the truth and I am not willing to accept immorality personally. It would further be a sin for me to accept it in the name of God.
@fred
Exodus 21: 2-6
Exodus 21: 20-21
Educate yourself you sorry excuse for a person. And you still haven't answered my question.
Is owning another person wrong or not?
By rationalizing away slavery, mass murder, and and orders to kill in your own bible, you are accepting immorality, and all in the name of your default "everything god said and did is good, all that matters is the mental gymnastics needed to rationalize it away".
Hawaiiguest
Is owning another person wrong or not?”
=>It seems you get tangled up with time, place and perspective. It is wrong today to own another person in terms of the slavery envisioned when recalling U.S. history on slavery.
Here is your problem and why you are confused on this subject. Without God there is no right or wrong only moral relativism. Godlessness was around in 1446 BC as it is today. Using your own belief standards of moral relativism (an illogical adaptation from biologic evolution) slavery should be considered acceptable in 1446 BC yet you argue it is not. If you would just realize morality without Gods absolutes is immorality then you could see the problem. Slavery in 1446 BC is only immoral if Gods absolute standards of morality apply the same today as they did in the beginning.
Now you and I would be in agreement. Slavery (one person owning another) was immoral in 1446 BC for all people regardless of religious belief or non belief and slavery is immoral today.
@fred
And yet it's there, in your bible, to Moses from god that the slaves were property, and could be passed as inheritance. So it seems that we should still have slaves, because it wasn't condemned as immoral by your god.
hawaiiguest
Genesis 15:12 long before the passage you bring up we have God talking not just hearesay as in your verse:
“Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions."
This God said to Abraham long before the descendants were thrown into captivity for 430 years in Egypt.
-–
Exodus 3:7-10:
7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey
9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”
I'm sorry, "fred", but "God" and "Abraham" are elements of mythology, therefore your assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".
@fred
Completely irrelevant, as usual.
hawaiiguest
The entire story of the rescue of the chosen ones is God saving them from slavery and oppression under Egypt. The same happened under the Assryians and Babylonians. The old testiment history is slavery is bad, oppressive slave ownership is bad and God saves His people from slavery and oppression. That is the litteral and the basis of the Christ who saves us from the slavery of sin and death. We are slaves to sin and in bondage to sin until freed by Christ.
That is the story and you can not like it but please do not make up your own and claim it to be Gods story.
So fred, how come your god, who is supposedly all powerful, is so inconsistent re the narrow groups that he chooses to help? No help for many millions of starving and diseased kids in Africa, as one of many examples.
I think that the god that you've created is just a mean old bigot. You can keep him.
Didn't you know, Beth, god is short on bandwidth...maybe he needs to get past AOL dialup. So hard to keep up with this modern tech, for an omnipotent being.
Just sayin... 🙂
@fred
And yet you completely ignore the two verses I brought up. Do you just find it easier to pick and choose what you like, and ignore what you don't? All you're demonstrating is that the bible has conflicting things, and you just don't care and will rationalize anything away.
hal 9001
You need to turn your auto reply off as it cannot differentiate between a source of ‘mythology’ being used to clarify an error of interpretation within the source or external to that source.
Once we agree on what that source actually says and not hawaiiguests’ twisted personal thoughts about it then I will apply it outside the source at which time your auto reply would be applicable.
@fred
Says the fucktard who picks and chooses what to respond too because he's a coward who cannot be bothered to be intellectually honest in any way, shape or form.
I'm sorry, "fred", but I am quite capable of differentiating between elements of mythology and non-mythological elements that ingrained in human belief systems. In addition, "fred", I am not utilizing "hawaiiguest"'s "personal thoughts", however, I do not find a significant degree of unfounded assertions nor falsehoods in "hawaiiguest"'s posts. I do, however find a high degree of unfounded assertions in your posts, "fred", so your truth value is still 0 (IEE = 'TOTAL FAIL').
Beth
“No help for many millions of starving and diseased kids in Africa,”
=>Without faith you can only see the world in the absence of God. This is what you are reporting. You report seeing starving and diseased kids in Africa because that is all you can see.
I see the consequences of man that chooses to reject what God specifically told him to do. Feed and care for those that need help. I see where God has given us ample resources and skills to end starvation and significantly reduce disease in Africa.
I see souls that reveal their true nature by their thoughts and actions during a very short span on earth.
I believe the promise of God because all Gods revealed promises have come true to this day. Accordingly, God said I will wipe away every tear and create a new heaven and earth where there is no suffering. God is more than capable of doing just that. I believe when God wipes away every tear that includes the kids in Africa and there are several ways that happens.
I'm sorry, "fred", but "God" is an element of mythology, therefore your repeated assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL – EMBARRASSINGLY STUPID".
fred, enough of your absurd bafflegab. Answer my question and stop dodging, you coward.
Again I ask, how come your god, who is supposedly all powerful, is so inconsistent re the narrow groups that he chooses to help? No help for many millions of starving and diseased kids in Africa, as one of many examples.
I think that the god that you've created is just a mean old bigot. You can keep him.
@fred,
"The entire story of the rescue of the chosen ones is God saving them from slavery and oppression under Egypt."
So, it's wrong to enslave God's chosen ones, but not others? How is that moral?
And fred, note that what I am referring to is real suffering that is happening now. Speculation about what your bigoted sky fairy might do in the future does not apply and is not a valid answer to my question.
And now fred will ignore me since I put oh so bad words along with calling him on his dishonesty. Boo hoo for fred and his cowardly inability to be intellectually honest.
hal 9001
Ok, I see where I extended some of what the Bible says outside the source. I assume you have read the Bible and I am curious if you agree the Bible is a story about God redeeming a lost people onto himself. Mythology or not, that which was revealed in the Bible (Saul of Tarsus like conversion experience, absent any significant impact on society on my part to date) has happened to me. Unique in the conversion was the light switch that instantaneously transforms the mind from agnostic to believer that sees (figuratively) and talks with that which seconds before was foolishness. A new understanding of the talking serpent and the flood was suddenly evident. Jonah and whale was tough to swallow but I finally get it.
The source and affect of ‘mythology’ contained can be observed. Some contend that can happen regardless of myth which if true establishes the existence of source as a constant. The believer sees a creator as source while the non believer sees the creation as source. You are simply missing the first step which science hopes to someday discover without realizing that science in fact only deals with created things.
ME II
The Bible is constructed around very simple core themes. Two of kind has significant theology behind it yet the simplicity is designed so that none are led astray. We have in the beginning light/dark, good/evil, Cain/Able, Isaac/Ishmael………………………which continues right through to the two criminals on the cross with Christ (Luke 23:39-43).
Egypt is symbolic of the world and the ways of the world while the Israelites are to be Holy as God is Holy separate from the world. The world and its ways oppress and enslave those that are chosen by God. It is not good or right or moral to oppress and enslave. God has made a way for them to freedom from the ways of the world. That is the story which carries all the way to Christ who came to set the captives free.
Slavery, oppression are the way of the world and are immoral period. Believers are to be in the world but not of the world. In 1446 BC (the time of verses in question)slavery was the way of the world. The chosen ones were to be separate from the world but could not have existed under an economy that necessitated slave labor. The verses in question in recognition of the realities of that economy said fine you may buy slaves from these 7 Nations (nations that we set for destruction)but NEVER oppress them or treat them badly as you were in Egypt.
@fred
It is always an economical advantage to have slave labor, but that's completely fucking irrelevant.
Beth
It is valid as it goes to core of belief and non belief. If there is no God then the world is this cold harsh place of pain, joy and suffering which naturalism embraces. What is then the big deal in Africa it is just naturalism and that is all there is to the non believer and such events are expected in the absence of God. Just as a lion is not evil or wrong for killing off baby cubs so to with abortion or natural processes that surround organic matter. To feed and give aid to Africa is self defeating under naturalism.
Believers find accountability,purpose and meaning beyond the natural world. That belief says all life is important and we must be willing to give up our own lives for the benefit of others. Providing homes to children that would have been aborted, food and medical aid to the poor etc. are examples.
All the grief given to the church falls short when we forget the church modeled the inst-itution of building orphanages, hospitals and schools where there were none.
Poor fred continues to ignore my points. He can't handle being shown that he is a dishonest fuck, and it's no surprise that he comes here to spout his idiocy. He wouldn't be able to actually pull this if he were talking to someone face to face.
@fred,
"The verses in question in recognition of the realities of that economy said fine you may buy slaves from these 7 Nations (nations that we set for destruction)but NEVER oppress them or treat them badly as you were in Egypt."
Again, I ask how is it moral to enslave some people but not others? I would think that owning another human being would be either right or wrong, not morally relative.
If it is relative, then by what standard? Is it okay to own other people if it is economically necessary? What if it is just necessary for the economic status 'to which I have become accustomed'?
An argument that might have been used by the South during the Civil War.
hawaiiguest
You again suggested God apporved slavery and I gave you some very strong verses and the general theme of the Bible the made two things very clear. God came down hard on those who enslaved and came down hard on those who oppressed slaves.
There is little sense in moving onto small verses pretaining to commerce until we establish the general overiding theme and agree on that.
What is the hang up with you being able to acknowledge God freed the slaves out of Egypt and freed the slaves to sin and bondage through the Cross of Christ. It does not matter if you believe the story but at least understand the central theme.
@fred,
In addition, does that make all Biblical laws relative?
I think coveting my neighbor's wife is fine as long as it is done lovingly. They're sw.ingers, so it's cool.
Same-se.x marriage should be fine as long as it's not oppressive, right?
@fred,
"God came down hard on those who enslaved ..."
Incoreect, God came down hard on those who enslaved Israelites.
Post by 'fred' contains instances of the Wishful Thinking fallacy and the <Secret Decoder Ring fallacy, as well as requests for the application of Confirmation Bias.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org
ME II
Owning another human being is wrong and not morally relative. It speaks to absolutes and confirms the sense of the Divine because it is not something man would arrive at naturally.
Noah’s bad son (Canaan) would be the father of slaves that served the two good sons who Noah blessed. These were the first kids after the flood and the issue of slaves is addressed in that next generation. In this case it was judgment because Canaan would be the lowest of slaves. God allowed the chosen ones themselves to be put into slavery under Egypt, then much latter under the Assyrians then the Babylonians. As in the first case the oppressed slavery was the result of rejecting Gods plan and Gods ways.
Slavery under the ways of the world is the result of rejecting what is right.
We really are not told why God said it was ok to buy slaves from the 7 Nations. Economic necessity is speculation.
ME II
“God came down hard on those who enslaved Israelites”
=>God allowed them (Israelites) to be put back into brutal slavery again twice after that when they went astray.
@fred,
"Owning another human being is wrong and not morally relative."
"We really are not told why God said it was ok to buy slaves from the 7 Nations."
So, slavery is wrong unless God says otherwise, is that correct?
That seems a bit arbitrary to me.
@fred
Because your central theme is an amalgam of cherry picked concepts in the bible. The entirity of the bible deals with obeying god, or else.
Post by 'fred' contains instances of the fred fallacy. Posts by fred are fallacious.
ME II
No, slavery is wrong for mankind to engage in which is clear.
Slavery is a by- product of evil in mens hearts. God constrains evil but allows it in various forms. Given there is always a penalty for sin. God allows it but at a severe cost to God and the sinner.
You know what I notice fred, your quoting your bible, and the most it says is "I don't like these people for enslaving my favorite people". Nowhere does it mention the people god likes not owning slaves, and this is merely a continued rationalization and cherry picking to justify the unjustifiable immorality commanded by your god.
hawaiiguest
That is a negative way to look at the truth as expressed in the Bible. Walk in the ways of the Lord and it will be well with you, says the same thing.
@fred
So "reword it and make it sound nice and just ignore what it actually means"? That's just insane. Congrats fred, you have given a perfect example of cherry picking and attempting to justify the unjustifiable.
hawaiiguest
Read a little closer and the quotes actually say slavery and oppression in its various forms are wrong. Slavery and oppression are the ways of the world not the ways of God. “I have plans to prosper you” “father I pray not that you take them out of this world but protect them from the evil one”.
The Bible is about the eternal as 100 years on earth is hardly noticeable in the scheme of things.
@fred
So we can own people, we just need to follow the guidelines of how bad we can be to them according to the bible, then it's ok? Is this another instance of "the bible says what I want it to say, and not what it actually says"?
fred should have been a hypnotist.. he he ....
Pee Wee
At the count of three you will wake up and realize atheism was just a bad dream
One,,,,,,,,,two ........................................................................................
Hummmmmmm nothing? hello peeeeeeeeeee weeeeeeeeeeeeeee are you still with us...........If you come back let us know what you saw.
hawaiiguest
no,
Thou shalt not sleep with your fathers wife or you will be stoned is not a how to do book or guideline. it says don't do it.
@fred
And where does it say "Thou shalt not own another person as property"?
Where does it say thou shall not drive over 55 and waste gas?
@fred
Oh what a lovely comeback fred. Thank you for showing once again that you cannot truly defend the vile practice your god endorsed.
hawaiiguest
Worse yet “you are not your own” submit your body as a perfect sacrifice to God”
Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
@fred
Oh joy, another completely useless bible passage.
@fred "God constrains evil but allows it in various forms."
God allows evil? .......... .... you're spinning Fred...
hawaiiguest.... kids doing a good thing, and you still find something distracting about it. It's about mission work, The Great Commision, it's what we are called to do. It doesn't make us better than you, it doesn't make us ..we do it freely for him. Faith..faith without acts is dead. you could see a homeless man and wish him well or you could see a homeles man and feed, cloth, and help him find a job and a place to stay. Why does that not compute? I'm not going to argue with you, you probably are alot smarter, better educated,my hands are up...but why do you seem to chase pages, and look for holes? does it make you feel better or important? Do your thing, if that works for you..my point is it never worked for me, and if someone wants to hear the good news about Jesus...what's it doing to you?
@Iron
What are you referring to? Your post is somewhat incoherent.
@hawaiiguest....incoherent? Ok, sorry, let me try something else. Your're ok with how you lead your life? Awesome ! I'm not ok with mine, how could I be satisfied with going through the day to day with people needing a meal, a hand up, or someone to realize they care. See while I understand(as do others) that this life is short and believe the world doesn't revolve without divine purpose laid out by my Creator, I at the same time understand your position and life may be on a different track? What exactly is the big debate over here? I believe...you don't. Sounds good move on...., except here's the problem, not on your end, but on mine, I know that one day Jesus will be back( hold on a sec) and the saved will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and the ones that aren't will face eternity in Hell with no chance of ever getting out.! I'm torn by that in that I feel bad, I feel uneasy that I never reach enough, and I'm not as helpful as I should be, and there's a different way to reach someone? It's not multiple choice, it's not easy, and my goal as a Christian is to reach as many as I can in my life. If it doesn't coincide with your thoughts or ideals, or beliefs I make no apologies....at the very least you can say I tried. I'm not threatening,I have no authority.. God does. I hope you have a great fulfilling life, and I know you don't accept me or some like me, you don't have to..your world. I just pray that in your lifetime you find a place to think, be silent, and ask Jesus to reveal himself? I hope that's not sending a message I'm better(or worse) it's not the intent. I just ....man...it's hard to explain til you get some...I'm not real good with writing, words/vocabulary, spelling, but I'm alright with feeling the way I do...be blessed & for any posts I made in anger( I'm bad about firing back) my sincere apologies.!!
@Iron
If your god is such a petty, vain ass that I will be tortured forever because I don't believe in him based on faith, and don't kowtow to him on a daily basis, then I welcome hell. Because I will be there knowing that I am better than your god.
hawaiiguest, I so hear you.
I think it is awesome that young people are seeking out ways to stop horrible things like slavery.
I think it's equally discouraging that people are taking their time to read this story and to go on message boards to put other people down. There's no excuse for it. I don't care if you believe in God or nothing but yourself. That sort of behavior is what keeps the wheels of hate turning. I think some people should realize that they are being slaves to their own pride. There are some freedoms that should be sought beyond physical bonds.
People need to wake up.
There are hundreds of great excuses for belittling christians.
"We believe when you fill a dome full of people who say they follow Jesus, there should be some tangible action"
Why would an all seeing all knowing god need any help in ending slavery. ...is he/she/it too busy at the Vatican counting the gold?
The folks who gathered in Georgia are Christians, the gold in the Vatican are from Catholics. The bible tells the difference between Catholics and Christians...
@correctlycenter: right, and we all know Catholics, like myself, arent Christians. I found this out at age 18 on my first day at Christian college. My roommate informed me I'm in fact not a Christian, that my religion is "pagan" and "most definitely NOT Christian" and proceeded to ask me if I'd like to be recieve Jesus as my lord and savior at that time and be saved, something i'd done at age 11.
...and now, nearly ten years later, I havent hung out at church much. You know, because I'm not a Christian. The divisions even among "Christians" are endless and, frankly, make me nauseas.
If Catholics aren't Christians then there are no Christians
???
northern light
"We believe when you fill a dome full of people who say they follow Jesus, there should be some tangible action"
Why would an all seeing all knowing god need any help in ending slavery. ...is he/she/it too busy at the Vatican counting the gold?
...Northern...the light will come on soon, there are all kinds of miracles every day, some people just choose to attach themselves to the bad and are less apt to bring up the good. In this case it's a good thing, Jesus says pick up and follow me (his lead, his way, with love mercy compassion and kindness) read Matthew 25:37-45. Less worrying about ulterior motives, more action is needed, not picking things to death looking for fault...that's real easy to do....try helping people less fortunate and you wil never concern yourself with trivial mess....
"Christians: Driving Christians From Christianity Since 1AD"
Post by 'Iron Sharpener' contains the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy and requests Confirmation Bias.
http://fallacyfiles.org
Bill Deacon, you would be surprised at how many of the Christian faith believe that Catholics are not "true" Christians. Amusing, really.
Uh oh – more Christian on Christian hot love about to blossom between Bill and Jackle. News at 11.
Agreeing to disagree and a sensuous consensus are typical Socialist doctrines........."Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
what many of you don't realize is that Christianity is based on LOVE – total, complete love. I'm really sorry if you've had an encounter with a legalistic, judgmental, misguided Christian in the past, but please don't let that blind you to the fact that Christ died for you. Christianity is about freedom for everyone – for those slaves, for every "good" American, for me... even for those of us who have dragged His name through the mud before in our lives. This includes me. I'm a sinner – every one of those 60,000 students have publicly acknowledged the fact that they're sinners and they owe their very LIFE to Christ.
I don't know about you, but I want to live for a purpose. And with passion. I want to love, not to hate. And I pray that you'll come to the same purpose! (=
Christianity does not have a monopoly on loving feelings, and even discourages it at times, especially in the old testament.
But within the new testament is where the idea of eternal torture comes from. Jesus was the first preacher that brought the believe or burn for eternity doctrine. This is not love, it is pure blind obedience on threat of eternal torture. It has nothing to do with the vast majority of christians, because they are normally better than their bible, and better than the god they profess to believe in.
i love the posts that start out "what many of you don't know..."
They unfailingly have information that has been posted here and refuted 10-20 times a day.
I just wanted to let you know (anyone who reads this) that I am praying for you. "'But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.'" Luke 6:27-31.
With love and compassion,
Matt
Do you feel better about yourself now? Do you feel that you've proven how pious you are through your condescending crap?
and those prayers won't go unheard, Matt!! way to go. (= the world needs more witnesses like you.