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January 13th, 2013
10:11 AM ET
Why Washington's National Cathedral will start hosting same sex weddingsCNN's Randi Kaye talks to the Very Rev. Gary Hall, dean of the Washington National Cathedral, about the national church's decision to host same-sex weddings. CNN Belief: Washington National Cathedral to wed same-sex couples |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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From today's news ...
"Hundreds of thousands of people from across France gathered in Paris on Sunday to oppose President Francois Hollande's plan to legalize same-se.x marriage, which would allow gay couples to adopt and conceive children."
You forgot to post the rest of it. The polls show the majority of French still support legalizing gay marriage.
Actually, it doesn't say that. But it does say ...
Melissa Michel, a Franco-American mother of five, said, "They're talking about putting into national ident.ity cards Parent 1, Parent 2, Parent 3, Parent 4. Mom, dad and the kids are going to be wiped off the map, and that's going to be bad for any country, any civilization."
Dude there are other news organizations that wrote about it. Not all of them are prejudice like the one you're reading.
Try any reliable Google result, Topher. It actually DOES say that.
Very possible it says so in another story. But not the one I'm reading. Even if the majority does support it ... I think that quote shows the slope is quite slippery.
If you look at the real truth there is no slippery slope, only prejudice people use that argument dude.
I know I'm going to regret this, but what is the source of the story you're reading ?
I think it is a very fair point. We're not even just talking marriage between two people here. We're talking multiple partners. We're talking about having many "parents". Possibly all of the same se.x. We're talking about childrens' lives now. What's next?
"We're talking multiple partners. We're talking about having many "parents". Possibly all of the same se.x."
Can you cite your source on this? Or this merely your prejudice opinion?
@Peter
Topher, citing a source? Hasn't happened yet, I don't see why he would suddenly become intellectual honest.
Sounds like Topher crawled out of a cave today. Dude, there are already plenty of gay in the world – go educate yourself and catch up to the rest of the world.
Topher – there are lots of gay parents as well. That was my point.
What exactly do you think "Parent 1, Parent 2, Parent 3, Parent 4" means?
What article are you reading?
Topher – why the reluctance to cite your source ?
"Parent 1, Parent 2, Parent 3, Parent 4" means?"
It's probably about when people get divorced and remarried, then a child can have multiple parents. It's interesting your prejudice makes you read it that way.
ed
Obviously I'm opposed to gay marriage, not that I think it's going to be stopped. My point is, those on these boards who support it often say it will never go past two people. Here we have proof it will. Up to four people at least. Then we have to factor children in. I'm just saying there needs to be certain limits ...
What does it mean Topher? So two gays parents would need at least one other biological parent maybe two if they adopt. There are already plenty of adopted children or children with step-parents, do you think those could be possibilties?
A simple google search finds a likely source for @Topher's article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/hundreds-of-thousands-oppose-same-seREMOVEx-marriage-in-france-88202/
Not sure what's French for Astro-turf, but:
"Around five TGV high-speed trains were specially hired to bring people to the ‘Demo for All’ from provincial towns, along with up to 1000 coaches."
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261766/Hundreds-thousands-streets-Paris-protest-Hollandes-plans-allow-gay-marriages-France.html)
The last line in Topher's article said "the law will make France the 12th country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage."
Progress is happening.
In Santa we trust
"So two gays parents would need at least one other biological parent maybe two if they adopt."
Why? Why can't two people do it correctly? Could it be that children raised by one mommy and one daddy are better off?
"There are already plenty of adopted children or children with step-parents, do you think those could be possibilties?"
No, I don't. Not the way this reads. A step-mother (of father) usually isn't given the same parental rights as the biological ones. Not only legally, but domestically ... often not even given the right to punish the child.
Explain why a gay couple would not need at least one other biological parent.
I think Topher may have finally just lost it. He's not making any sense at all.
Topher the parent 1, parent 2 naming is so that the partner in a gay marriage can legally adopt the child if the partnership breaks up, then if one of the partner gets remarried, more adoption can happen. It has nothing to do with the slippery slope that you want everyone to believe. The articles don't talk about polygamy at all.
Let the record show that the initial request for a source was made at 4:26 p.m., followed by two more at 4:30 and again at 4:36. Since it takes a grand total of approx 10 seconds to copy and paste a link, one has to wonder what the source of Topher's reluctance is.
Yeah, Topher, like when my het parents divorced each other and married other people – suddenly I had parent 1, 2, 3, 4....there's your slipperly slope, you nutcase. How do you even make it through an average day successfully, with your stunning lack of logic? Does someone help you wipe?
Topher, grow some balls for a change, coward, and cite your source.
Stories like this are why i will never go back to church.
Poeple pick the 2 passages from the old testament that they want to keep, and ignore the rest of the books that are not to their liking.
Either accept the bible, or don't. Enough with using it as an excuse to hate when it clearly has other over riding themes.
Also, someone might wonder why I mentioned James Madison below in regard to the National Cathedral and the Episcopal Church. Of course there is the tie-in that he was the 4th Bishop of the Episcopal church. But also, as we see the present-day struggle over the issue of same-sex marriage between moderates of Christianity and the bigoted, superstitious extreme fundamentalists, it should remind us of the time when Madison was about to become the chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & Bill of Rights. He was faced with similar struggles in his home state of Virginia. He, along with Jefferson, Mason, Washington, Paine, and more, witnessed violent persecution between different Christian sects. Below, I mention that Madison was consecrated as a Bishop of the Episcopal Church in 1790 by the anglican Archbishop of Canterbury. But it was only five years prior to that consecration that Madison delivered these words to the Virginia General Assembly:
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
It (G-od/religion) has to stay out of politics and public shools in the US .
Facts work best anyway. Oldest rock , 4.4 billion years old tells story, it is called geology.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/01/10/169047159/the-oldest-rock-in-the-world-tells-us-a-story
Correction regarding my post above.
James Madison, 4th POTUS was not the 4th Bishop of the Episcopal Church. It was his cousin, also named James Madison (also from Virginia; born two years apart; both Episcopals, both supporters of separation of church and state). This cousin who was the 4th Episcopal bishop became the eighth president of the College of William & Mary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioLEFRZP-_A
The bigoted Douglas and Bob seem very upset over this trend of various Christian institutions performing same-sex marriages as soon as it is legal to do so. We also know that more and more states are legalizing gay marriage.
Yesterday Douglas wrote "The National Cathedral is nothing but a white-washed sepulchre". And we see that Bob and 'pervert alert' are up to their usual childish bigotry this morning here.
Now I am an agnostic atheist, but I'm pretty sure the National Cathedral is more than Douglas' description in the minds of many. It is also is the seat of both the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, and the Bishop of the Diocese of Washington, Mariann Edgar Budde. (Schori is the first woman elected as a primate in the Anglican Communion.)
The cathedral is also the "National House of Prayer" as designated under a charter passed by the United States Congress on January 6, 1893. Teddy Roosevelt was present when the cornerstone was laid.
If you drive from the cathedral several miles out of D.C. (southward), across the Potomac River, past the Cherry blossoms, past the Lincoln Memorial, you'll be in Virginia. Virginia, of course was home to Washington, Madison, Mason, Jefferson, Monroe, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, and Zachary Taylor. Also home to Woodrow Wilson (who is buried at Washington National Cathedral along with Helen Keller, and other notable people).
James Madison (you may have heard me mention his name once or twice), our 4th POTUS and chief architect of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, was the fourth bishop of the Episcopal Church and the first bishop of Virginia. He was consecrated in 1790 by the Archbishop of Canterbury and two other Church of England bishops.
Of course National Cathedral also has traditionally been used for presidential funderals (Eisenhower, Ford and Reagan).
Also, it was from Washington National Cathedral's Canterbury Pulpit that the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. delivered the final Sunday sermon of his life, just a few days before his assassination. A memorial service for King was held at the cathedral later the same week.
Bob says he doesn't pay attention to trends. Well Bob and Douglas ought to pay more attention to history and trends in this country. This church, cathedral, National House of Prayer, however one views it, now joins other institutions that represent millions in this country in supporting same-sex marriage. Institutions like United Church of Christ, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Unitarian Universalist, and more.
Correction to my post above:
James Madison, 4th POTUS was not the 4th Bishop of the Episcopal Church. It was his cousin, also named James Madison (also from Virginia; born two years apart; both Episcopals, both supporters of separation of church and state). This cousin who was the 4th Episcopal bishop became the eighth president of the College of William & Mary.
"I cannot believe that we let people be freely gay in this country."
The hundreds of thousands of experts in this country have shown that heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Like their heterosexual counterparts, many gay and lesbian people want to form stable, long-lasting, committed relationships. Indeed, many of them do and that large proportions are currently involved in such a relationship and that a substantial number of those couples have been together 10 or more years.
Research demonstrates that the psychological and social aspects of committed relationships between same-sex partners closely resemble those of heterosexual partnerships. Like heterosexual couples, same-sex couples form deep emotional attachments and commitments. Heterosexual and same-sex couples alike face similar issues concerning intimacy, love, equity, loyalty, and stability, and they go through similar processes to address those issues. Research examining the quality of intimate relationships also shows that gay and lesbian couples have levels of relationship satisfaction similar to or higher than those of heterosexual couples.
A large number of gay and lesbian couples raise children. Children and teenagers whose parents provide loving guidance in the context of secure home environments are more likely to flourish – and this is just as true for children of same-sex parents as it is for children of opposite-sex parents. Based on research findings, mental health professionals have also reached a consensus that the quality of relationships among significant adults in a child’s or adolescent’s life is associated with adjustment. When relationships between parents are characterized by love, warmth, cooperation, security, and mutual support, children and adolescents are more likely to show positive adjustment. In contrast, when relationships between parents are conflict-ridden and acrimonious, the adjustment of children and adolescents is likely to be less favorable. These correlations are just as true for children of same-sex parents as for children of opposite-sex parents.
Assertions that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children of heterosexual parents, have no support in the scientific research literature. On the contrary, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has consistently shown that the former are as fit and capable as the latter and that their children are as psychologically healthy and well adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents.
I cannot believe that we let people be freely gay in this country. Do none of you read the bible? These fa gggots deserve beat downs, not recognition.
I'm bob. I'm a bigot. My imaginary god tells me to beat up people. Why don't people like me?
You do that, Bob....try to beat them down. I hope you quickly learn the down side of the second amendment.
Just wait until Bob gets his ass kicked by a really butch les'bian who is more of a man than he is.
@mir...
nope
Bob makes good sense but is being much too nice to qu eers. Qu eers the folks who gave AIDS to the world.
"Qu eers the folks who gave AIDS to the world."
Perhaps you should have used protection, Pervy.
" Qu eers the folks who gave AIDS to the world."
Until recently, the origins of the HIV-2 virus had remained relatively unexplored. HIV-2 is thought to come from the SIV in Sooty Mangabeys rather than chimpanzees, but the crossover to humans is believed to have happened in a similar way (i.e. through the butchering and consumption of monkey meat). It is far rarer, significantly less infectious and progresses more slowly to AIDS than HIV-1. As a result, it infects far fewer people, and is mainly confined to a few countries in West Africa.
In May 2003, a group of Belgian researchers published a report in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. By analysing samples of the two different subtypes of HIV-2 (A and B) taken from infected individuals and SIV samples taken from sooty mangabeys, Dr Vandamme concluded that subtype A had passed into humans around 1940 and subtype B in 1945 (plus or minus 16 years or so). Her team of researchers also discovered that the virus had originated in Guinea-Bissau and that its spread was most likely precipitated by the independence war that took place in the country between 1963 and 1974 (Guinea-Bissau is a former Portuguese colony). Her theory was backed up by the fact that the first European cases of HIV-2 were discovered among Portuguese veterans of the war, many of whom had received blood transfusions or unsterile injections following injury, or had possibly had relationships with local women.
Given the evidence we have already looked at, it seems highly likely that Africa was indeed the continent where the transfer of HIV to humans first occurred (monkeys from Asia and South America have never been found to have SIVs that could cause HIV in humans). In May 2006, the same group of researchers who first identified the Pan troglodytes troglodytes strain of SIVcpz, announced that they had narrowed down the location of this particular strain to wild chimpanzees found in the forests of Southern Cameroon . By analysing 599 samples of chimp droppings (P. T. troglodytes are a highly endangered and thus protected species that cannot be killed or captured for testing), the researchers were able to obtain 34 specimens that reacted to a standard HIV DNA test, 12 of which gave results that were virtually indistinguishable from the reactions created by human HIV. The researchers therefore concluded that the chimpanzees found in this area were highly likely the origin of both the pandemic Group M of HIV-1 and of the far rarer Group N. The exact origins of Group O however remain unknown.
HIV Group N principally affects people living in South-central Cameroon, so it is not difficult to see how this outbreak started. Group M, the group that has caused the worldwide pandemic, was however first identified in Kinshasa, in the Democratic Repub lic of Con go. It is not entirely clear how it transferred from Cameroon to Kinshasa, but the most likely explanation is that an infected individual travelled south down the San gha river that runs through Southern Cam eroon to the River Con go and then on to Kin shasa, where the Group M epidemic probably began.
Just as we do not know exactly who spread the virus from Cam eroon to Kin shasa, how the virus spread from Africa to America is also not entirely clear. However, recent evidence suggests that the virus may have arrived via the Cari bbean island of H aiti.
Mirosal
Any girl past 13 could probably beat up Bob.
Seems as if Bob has bought a one way ticket to the Pit of Despair to be devoured by flaming demon marmots for all of eternity. Tim the Destroyer of Worlds is a friend and ally to the LGBT community. Ferretianism is the one true religion. Repent! (banjoferret d c)
I cannot believe that we let people be freely gay in this country. Do none of you read the bible? These fa gggots deserve beat downs, not recognition.
You condone beating those who are different from you, but claim the bible? Did not Jesus himself say to turn the other cheek? Did he not tell his followers to love their neighbor? To even love those that hate them?
Where in that love does beating someone fall?
I can't believe we let people be freely religious in this country. Why won't this country lag behind the rest of the world when halfwits like Bob are allowed to roam the streets?
@Gir
Why is there bacon in the soap?!?
@bobbie
Bible is not FACT!!! creationism/id not fact!!! have a sweet day.
That's cute Bob, it will be funny to see a fat, religitard, bigot catch a beating from a gay man with about 2 % body fat, as a result of countless hours in the gym, because face it they are in better shape.
It's all about Benjamins!!!
Tom, just leave this freak alone. You and I are not exactly friends, but this person is twisted to the core! Tell this freak to bug off and get lost.
p.s. My post was posted on wrong place. I was speaking regarding lionlylamb
Thanks for the advice. I'll give it due consideration.
If lionlylamb cared about the bloggers here, he'd try to communicate effectively. Obviously, he's only here to entertain himself.
He kids himself that it's "therapy" and shows his posts to his "lady doctor."
It's not just LaLa's atrociously flaccid and feculent diarrhetorical writing; it's that his ideas are literally mentally unsound.
LaLa's writing is a wrapper of vomit over his pile of shit contorted thinking.
And he is so impressed with himself for having produced such effluence! It's truly hilarious!
ll is a badly mangled, contorted fork...
http://goo.gl/SDYyN
some broken clocks aren't even right once per day:
http://imgur.com/sJz8Y
that's OC by the way.
Yay for progress! Tim the Destroyer of Worlds is pleased to see his wayward minions expand their minds a bit. Now if they would just stop worshiping a false sky daddy, then we'd be making some real progress. Ferretianism is the one true religion. Repent! (banjoferret d c)
Heretic!! It is YOU who have not been touched by HIS noodly appendage! RAMEN!
Bippy the Totally Immortal Squirrel God would come kick Tim's ass if he hadn't gotten himself killed in that industrial accident at the condom factory.
To be fair, Ferretians and Pastafarians do coexist peacefully. We recognize them as the other one true religion and we assume they feel the same way about us. Little known fact: Tim affectionately refers to the FSM as "Noodles". They often play space poker together.
Alas, Bippy and the condom factory incident. Still brings tears to the eyes of Ferretians.
"But YOUR SOUL, which you have denied by numbing and shutting out your conscience, KNOWS that there is God. That's just the way it is, friend!"
Thus spake the Priss-Pot, ignorant twit.
You aren't anyone's "friend", Prissy, and you do not have a clue as to what you're babbling.
I'm back home if anyone wants to continue the discussion we were having earlier ...
Wouldn't that be special.
@topher bible fact or fiction ?
Fact
Why bother? It wastes my time and annoys the pig.
Topher,
What percentage of the Bible is true?
100 percent ... but with the concession that there are spelling mistakes and copy errors.
You are 100% stupid if you think Noah's Ark is even remotely possible, much less true.
@topher the courts have ruled can't teach creationism/bible studies in the public schools in us as fact .
So it must be FICTION ! FACT.
Take it up with the courts .
Have a gteat night.
Topher,
The logistics of putting 2 to 7 of every land animal on a small ship (by today's standards) and feeding them for up to a year is so insanely ridiculous, that it seems incredible that anyone could be naive enough to believe in the Noah's ark nonsense.
Topher if I may ask, how did you get this way? How did you become such a, well, the word has negative connotations, but it is the best I can do, such a zealot?
The usual path is heavy indoctrination by parents, though people who trainwreck their lives is another route to such fervor.
Care to share your path?
Observer
It wasn't 2 to 7 of every land animal. It was of every "kind." For instance, you wouldn't need 2 chihuahuas and 2 great danes and so on ... you'd only need two "dogs". That should help since it drastically cuts your numbers down.
Topher,
Get serious. You don't believe in animals evolving into other species, right?
James McGillicutty
Zealot? I prefer "fundamentalist." 😉
"Care to share your path?"
Sure. I didn't grow up in a church and neither did my parents. In fact, if you'd have asked me, I would have told you I was an atheist. A very loud, very vocal, very angry atheist. When I was in my late teens, a family member went to a funeral where she asked the pastor how one gets to go to Heaven. That pastor told her all you have to do is believe. So I thought, hey, just in case it's true, I can "believe." So for the next 10 years or so, I would have told you I was a Christian. But that wasn't true. I didn't change. I didn't pick up the Bible and read it, nor did I care to. Somewhere in my very-late 20s, someone finally explained the Gospel to me ... that I had accu.mulated a sin debt and deserved Hell. But that Christ paid for my sins on the cross. I knew it was true. My conscience told me so. Even when I was an "atheist" I knew there was a God. I just didn't want it to be true. When I looked back at my time as a "Christian" I get angry because no one told me the truth and know that if I had died in a car accident, I'd be in Hell right now. Once I understood what God did for me, I decided to live my life for him and strive to make sure everyone knows the truth ... or at least knows enough to make an educated decision one way or the other.
Observer
In true Darwinian evolution where one animal changes and becomes a completely different animal? No, I don't. But I do recognize micro evolution where changes do occur, but that it's still the same species.
dumbazz. If you "knew there was a god" while you were an "atheist" you weren't an atheist. Are you really this stupid?
Topher,
So a chihuahua can just morph into a Great Dane? Same animal to you?
Get serious. Probably most Christians don't believe this 100% irrational nonsense and write it off as an "example" for the Bible.
I actually figured it was something like that.
May I respectfully request that you do not look at your experience as a juvenile "atheist" (which you seem to know you were not) as being representative? Between myself and the atheists I know, I have only known one to behave somewhat as you describe yourself, and he far less extreme than you have described. Please do not make the mistake of thinking you understand atheism, because it just would not be true.
What made you act like that as a child? Drug use? Family disfunction? Abuse? Your pattern seems to be based on trauma, but I might be mistaken.
By the way, thank you for being forthcoming. I appreciate it, and am not trying to insult you.
Oh, I know I wasn't really an atheist. But I wasn't a Christian, either. But (and I don't mean to insult any of you, though I probably will) I don't think any of you who claim not to believe in God are being completely honest. I think you know there's a God because your conscience is telling you so.
Observer
"Get serious. Probably most Christians don't believe this 100% irrational nonsense and write it off as an "example" for the Bible."
Maybe so. That doesn't prove it wrong, though. I believe God's word over man's opinions.
That is what I asked you not to do – judge us based on your own experience. You see, your notion that others secretly believe is actually based on your own inability to perceive a world without a god, but for us it's not only easy; it's obviously the way things really are. Sorry, but it is your own illusions about us that prevents you from understanding that we do not believe at all, that it is actually a ridiculous concept, and we are quite happy seeing life as it is, without illusion. Indeed, I have come to view religious people as somewhat crazy, perhaps a bit harsh, but I have so much trouble understanding how they can actually believe so many things that, at best, have no evidence, and at worst are totally illogical.
I suspected you felt that way when you keep trying to start discussions, that you would somehow grow that thought in others, but that just is not reality. We truly do not believe, not even deepin our subconsciousnesses.
So back to my question: was there some traumatic upbringing that cause you to go through your pseudo-atheist stage? Why did you choose atheism as a rebellion in a non-religious family?
@topher
Awww... that's a cute way of looking at it. I don't think you really believe there is a deity and are being dishonest with yourself. There, my opinion is equal to yours.
James McGillicutty
"That is what I asked you not to do – judge us based on your own experience"
Actually, I don't need to use my own experience on this ... the Bible says the same thing ... that your conscience reveals God to you so that you have no excuse come Judgment Day. Not trying to pick a fight, just telling you what it says.
"I have so much trouble understanding how they can actually believe so many things that, at best, have no evidence, and at worst are totally illogical."
That's kinda subjective, isn't it? I mean, there's enough evidence for millions around the world to believe. And that same evidence is available to you, you have just come to a different conclusion is all. I think there's TONS of evidence that not only is there a God, but that's it's the God of the Bible.
"I suspected you felt that way when you keep trying to start discussions, that you would somehow grow that thought in others, but that just is not reality. We truly do not believe, not even deepin our subconsciousnesses."
True, I do hope that you repent and trust the Savior so that you can go to Heaven. Dude, I don't want you to go to Hell. I care about you and don't even know you.
"So back to my question: was there some traumatic upbringing that cause you to go through your pseudo-atheist stage? Why did you choose atheism as a rebellion in a non-religious family?"
I don't think there was any event ... I was just very arrogant. I thought I was smarter than everyone else and I'd have no problem telling you about it. I was Mr. Science. I practically worshipped at the altar of it. I thought science proved there was no God. I now think science actually points to a Creator. But it's that same arrogance I see in so many atheists on this board. I'm constantly called names (as if that's going to change my mind). Anyone who has a different point of view from the atheist is ignorant.
So dude, what exactly is your stance? Atheist? Agnostic? What do you believe about the afterlife?
Dude, seriously I don't want you going to hell, dude. Dude, what's your outlook on life? Dude, are you an atheist dude, an agnostic dude? Dude, I'm not judging you, I leave that up to that other dude, or Dude because Dude looks more powerful than dude. What's your astrological sign, dude? I like saying dude because I think it makes me look hip and I feel like I can connect with young people when I say dude.
Dude.
Are you ready to admit the scripture is not "perfectly clear"....or are you just going to keep lying to everyone?
Topher,
"I believe God's word over man's opinions". The story of Noah's ark is not a conflict with "man's opinions". It is a conflict with common sense, science, math, biology, physics, and logic just for starters. It's sad to see all of them be ignored in favor of wishful thinking and fantasy.
Observer
There's been plenty of people who did the research and shown that the Biblical description of Noah's Ark was possible. But I suppose you'll deny their work, too.
I think that research has been more along the lines of 'yes, it could have been built', like viking ships that people have built according to the way they were described in texts.
Topher,
There are likely tens of millions of people who think the story is pure nonsense. It's highly likely that few if any of our highest intelligence people accept such an irrational story.
How do your expects say the animals got brought in from all over the world? Teleporting? Flying with oxygen masks?
How many hours a day did 600-year-old Noah spend scooping poop and feeding the hundreds of thousands of animals from the months and months of food on board that never spoiled?
Have you ever given any serious thought to the logistics of this at all?
Observer
"There are likely tens of millions of people who think the story is pure nonsense. It's highly likely that few if any of our highest intelligence people accept such an irrational story."
That has zero bearing on whether it was true or not.
"How do your expects say the animals got brought in from all over the world? Teleporting? Flying with oxygen masks?"
The animals showed up as God commanded them.
"How many hours a day did 600-year-old Noah spend scooping poop and feeding the hundreds of thousands of animals from the months and months of food on board that never spoiled?"
Answers in Genesis has some very good articles on this, believe it or not. They've pretty much thought of everything while preparing to build a life-size ark in Kentucky. They describe what they likely did with the poo as well as show the ship could have not only held all the animals it claimed to, but all of the food it would have needed for those animals. I know you atheists hate Ken Ham, but his organization has some really interesting stuff on this subject and you should check it out.
Have you ever given any serious thought to the logistics of this at all?
Topher,
The ark they built doesn't WORK. It doesn't float. It's just a museum.
God's commanding animals to fly in from around the world (apparently wearing oxygen masks) is a total cop-out. You have ZERO proof that logically and scientifically this could be done at that time.
If we want to suspend all common sense, physics, and logic, we can all agree that Superman is real. You obviously haven't thought through the required suspension of laws of science, physics, math, etc. that would have to happen to support this nonsense.
But I know Superman could have done it.
Observer
"The ark they built doesn't WORK. It doesn't float. It's just a museum."
What about it being made of wood makes you think it won't float?
"God's commanding animals to fly in from around the world (apparently wearing oxygen masks) is a total cop-out."
That's the second time you've used the "oxygen masks" line. I don't get it. Explain?
"You obviously haven't thought through the required suspension of laws of science, physics, math, etc. that would have to happen to support this nonsense."
What laws specifically have to be broken for this to work? Honestly, what is your biggest problem with it?
Sorry for the slow response.
I would have thought it obvious that I am an atheist. Nothing drove me to it beyond common sense. Very nice way of life, accepting the world as it is, not having to try to get the round peg of reality into the square hole of religion. All the pieces fit. About the only downside is the stigma Christians have put on atheists list me, the false steroetypes of arrogance and hate and all the rest, the lies told a hundred times. One look on this blog clearly shows the religious people are every bit as talented at hate and arrogance as any atheist. But it is nice to see the world as it really is.
Your Bible is wrong about atheists, as are you. I truly don't believe, not at all. Your beliefs truly are the same as someone who believes in leprechauns to me, just strange and not credible at all. I have read your Bible, the Quran, The Bhagavad Gita, a lot of Buddhist scripture, and more. Some was interesting (the Buddhists philosophically are the best much better than Christian ideas, but I don't believe their supernatural claims at all), most was absurd and obviously the work of primitive minds.
I have no anger, no emptiness, many friends, good life, do quite a bit of charity work. All good. When I tell Christians that, they tell me to my face that I am lying. That religious indoctrination and groupthink amazes me, so blinded by dogma that the reality vanishes.
Anyway, the reason you don't understand atheists is that you don't try to understand real atheists, but instead read the Bible and then try to pound the round peg into the square hole. That's part of why people slam you here – because you say really inaccurate things about atheists.
Gotta run. Thanks for the insights. Based on the arc of your life so far, you are not done changing beliefs. Were I to talk to you in ten or twenty years, I almost certainly would find very different beliefs. You are trying way too hard, which often means there is significant doubt that you are trying to overcome.
And remember, secular European countries really have the lowest crime, excellent medical care, education and prosperity, and low abortion. They are living breathing proof that atheism is quite moral and decent and effective, quite to the contrary of your myths.
Topher,
This is a museum. It is not a ship. If it could float, they would have done it to increase it's credibility. There is a T-itanic museum and it doesn't float either. They are just tourist SHOPS.
The flying in of animals from all over the world defines laws of science. How did they breath while flying? How did they learn how to fly? Did God built a spaceship to fly them in? Who collected all the food for the trip? Who got all the fresh meat required by carnivores and what kind of freezers did the ark have? How did Noah learn how to handle the thousands of animals he had never seen before? Why didn't any of the animals attack each other?
Any answers you have involve some sort of magic from God. No reality based on the laws of science that we know.
Yes. The Noah's ark story could be true. All we have to do is to accept that ANYTHING is POSSIBLE. This is the realm of science fiction not reality. So far, you've offered nothing to disprove that Superman didn't do it.
Are you talking about that dutch "ark? It's just an empty building on 40 steel barges. It's not a ship at all. It's a joke.
Wood is not strong enough at that size to make a ship, and it would flex and twist horribly, and fail. Couldn't take 150 days of storms, especially carrying the tonnage the Ark would have had with all those animals and provisions.
Hmmm... if a deity built a spaceship, kind of makes the whole ark thing a waste of time. Would have been easier though, but this deity can't seem to do anything the easy way.
Larry of Nazareth,
The Dutch one is a different fake ark tourist shop.
Topher, google "Noah's ark debunked" – you should find the video "Noah's ark debunked (definitive edition)" at least entertaining.
If I were going to wipe out the human race, I would have sent a virus. All this intercontinental animal transportation and floatation is just silly. And asking three guys to build a 440 foot ship is just stupid. That would be like making them cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring. Ni! Ni I say!
And if I were a nice God, which apparently I'm not, I'd just go make my presence and wishes known to the people who disappointed me, and not hide and keep secret. I'd go do a cool laser light show, then tell them in my big spoky TV voice to stop doing what I don't like. I mean really, if I were against gays, I'd bust a big drama spectacle on Castro Street andeducate them. This whole hiding and confusing them thing is just silly, and it's really unfair to punish them afterwards when I do the hiding thing.
A real god would not have eternal punishment – it's unjust, cruel and unusual, and even humans know better than to behave like that. Nope, a bit of education, and everyone into the pool for mojitos in heaven.
"That has zero bearing on whether it was true or not."
Same could be said about your beliefs, Gopher
@topher here is your afterlife
Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says – CNN ...
religion.blogs.cnn.com/.../heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-ha...
May 17, 2011 – By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen ...
"There's been plenty of people who did the research and shown that the Biblical description of Noah's Ark was possible. "
The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).
It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.
James, atheists are often very good citizens and do many good works. In fact, many are such nice people, that one could be easily mistaking them for charitable Christians.
But it is the rejection of testimony of the Holy Spirit of God who witnesses to every man who Christ Jesus is that condemns them.
It is Because they are establishing their own righteousness and denying God and Christ's righteousness, without whom no man will be able to stand before God that God calls them evil. That is the point where you, people get lost. You can not bear the truth of it, and It makes you angry and hostile toward God, which is in itself manifests the very truth of what's written here...
Because it is written "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Hebrews 4:12), and it is Christ Jesus, the living Word of God whom you are dealing with, to whom no intent of human heart is hidden.
P.S. Also, just want to mention, that there is no such thing as real, 100 % atheists. Your mind can be deceived to the point that you BELIEVE 100% that there is no God. But YOUR SOUL, which you have denied by numbing and shutting out your conscience, KNOWS that there is God. That's just the way it is, friend!
Prissy, you just don't get it. I suppose it's because, like Topher, you are myopic when it comes to realizing that not everyone believes in your god and that we don't need to. You seem to need a big bully to tell you how to live and what is right or wrong. I don't. I also don't need the pie-in-the-sky promise of some heaven to have a meaningful life. You do. The fact is that you were just LOVING Sam Barber's music and thought it could ONLY be the expression of a true believer-until you found out he was gay. If you can't tell who is a believer and who isn't, then obviously, being one isn't all that crucial in life.
Get over it. Your god is yours. Others simply disagree that such a being in necessary for anyone to live a good and worthy life. You aren't going to convince anyone by threatening them with things they don't believe exist.
And you're hardly an example that anyone would wish to emulate. After all, you loved Sam Barber's music; you posted
prissy
I am 100% atheist. And you first have to prove the theory that there is a soul.
It has been my observation that most atheists have perverted minds. They seem to be obsessed with s.e.x..... the ones on this site prove it.
This "man of the cloth" is not God's shepherd, neither is this "Nation's Cathedral" His house. God has written ICHABOD -THE GLORY OF GOD DEPARTED above it's door. And likewise it is written over the whole nation.
Yep. This church doesn't follow God's word. It doesn't support slavery. It doesn't support discrimination against women. It doesn't support discrimination against the handicapped.
"God has written ICHABOD -THE GLORY OF GOD DEPARTED above it's door. And likewise it is written over the whole nation." – Prissy
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" – Chicken Little
Pretty eerie, isn't it?
Priss Pot: Go sod-o-mize yourself, punk
No mind change here or for the majority of decent Americans. America and the world have no use for qu eers. Qu eers the people that gave AIDS to the world.
Fifty-one percent believe gays should have the right to marry. You lose.
There is no proof when AIDS started in humans.
Do some research so you won't be so ignorant.
Qu eer statistics are not worth the toilet paper they are issued on, come to think of it tp is one up on tom tom at least it has a use. Qu eers the people that gave AIDS to the world.
pervert alert,
No proof. No facts.
Just fantasy. Get an education.
AIDS didn't come from humans AIDS came from qu eers. Qu eers the people who gave AIDS to the world.
only repressed latent hom ose xuals have a problem with gayness.
srsly bro.... just come out.
we won't think any less of you.
(we won't think any more of you either)
cha cha cha
Gays should be willing to come out here since they have a lot of support.
pervert alert,
AIDS came from monkeys and is spread by gays and heteros.
Even a couple minutes of research could help you stop making such factless statements. Get an education.
@pervert,
Congrats on the ignoble distinction of most asinine and inane post of the day!
well, pervy, maybe you should not have spent all those evenings on your knees in those bathhouses back in the day.
So observer you acknowledge qu eers are involved in bestiality. Qu eers the filthy people that gave AIDS to the world.
It is always a good day when we get to be entertained by the comedic genius of the pervert.
yep, he's rather vehement about it, and I've found that the more outspoken they are, the deeper into the closet they really are. He's in serious self-denial and is full of self-loathing.
Why??????? Its all about the $$$$$!!
funny how when the public changes it's mind on a subject, like g.ay marriage and the church starts to fall behind... they finally change their minds too. of course, i wasn't aware that you could just change scripture when it doesn't suit you or when you realize how disgusting an order to kill g.ays is. leviticus 20:13 says to put g.ays to death - that's awful.
the bible also has rules for selling your own daughter into slavery. the bible says women that are r.aped must marry their r.apist. the bible says all non-virgin brides are to be stoned to death on their father's doorstep - goodbye 98% of american females! according to the bible, you are filth worthy of a painful death by bludgeoning.
how can anyone follow the bible? anyone who actually did follow the bible would be among the worst mass murderer/serial killers ever to have lived. that book is disgusting.
There is no doubt that morals change with time and the evolution of humanity.
There was an interesting article in the paper last year about whether the church changes with time are stays static 2000 years in the past,. Certainly we can see that some stay rooted in the past yet all things chngeg in the end.
It's all about MONEY. These charlatans will amend their "absolute" and "unchanging" beliefs to make sure people keep filling up the collection hat every Sunday.
And they'll do anything to maintain relevance, like teaching magical creationism in schools instead of science as the first step in their insidious agenda to inject their imaginary gods into public affairs. Never mind that it undermines the already fragile education system and places our youth at a disadvantage in this increasingly global economy.
I can think of no worse act of TREASON than hamstringing this country's future. PROSECUTE and TAX them, I say!
There are no verses in the Bible against gay marriage.
Gay relations and gay coitus are condemned in the Holy Bible.
To say that gay marriage passes the litmus test for scriptual acceptance is one heck of a stretch.
If gay coitus is condemned...gay marriage is on the same plane.
Celibate gay relations are acceptable and are free from condemnation.
Standard delusional fare from Douglas.
@douglas
Since creationism and the bible go hand in hand and they (creationism/bible/ID) lost in court, which made it illegal to teach in public schools in US.
Means the bilbe is what fact or fiction?
These BUSINESSES need to lose their tax-exempt status.
^ bump
No one has yet been able to show that God still considers being gay to be an abomination but eating lobster and Alaskan King crablegs not to still be an abomination.
So can anyone explain why tens of millions of Christians engage in this ABOMINATION, but don't make any issue of it?
Any explanation other than HYPOCRISY?
Gong GONG Gong, echo man looses.
lol??
Yes. You are completely STUMPED AGAIN.
Well done.
being g.ay AND eating shellfish is abomination to god. the bible says g.ays are an abomination and should be put to death. leviticus 20:13. don't remember where the shellfish part is. the bible is a silly, silly book.
God is whatever these hypocrites want him to be. If they have personal hang-ups over gays or blacks, their gods must share those hang-ups. This is why the idea of a personal god like the ones found in Abrahamic religions are extremely dangerous, especially the Christian version.
Jesus was the biggest faqqot of all time.
Jesus s the biggest contribution to the world, creation of horse's farts like "Kevin, Kevin The Baker's Aunt"
let me guess host same-s.ex weddings is a lucrative business !!
Take a shower. Your taxi smells like mud people.
Well, the Public Servants get quite a cut.
@Kevin...
the smell is from your own fart, goon
everyone gets a cut. same-s.ex marriage is huge for businesses that supply/service weddings. florists get more work. so do caterers, venues, bartenders, waiters/waitresses, tux rentals, wedding gown makers, jewelry stores, printers that print the invitations, etc. yup, makes great business sense.
Yup Babylon.
in what regard? same as people who make money off straight weddings. it's business. nothing more.
From CNN belief blog
To Topher must mean go-d is a fairy too.
Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says – CNN ...
religion.blogs.cnn.com/.../heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-ha...
May 17, 2011 – By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen ...
So then, energies are the last stances for philosophical sciences and stems beyond the boundaries of autistic synergism where there lays the broad spectrums of illusory symptomatic phenomenon too tantalizingly and adeptly inept in curative understandings for even the smartest of people to so fathom with any degree of absolute certainties?
Though we live within a chasm of derived ascertainment concluded as being a universe does in no way or means make causal admissions that there are unknowable amounts of self-similar universes being side by side ours creating a gigantic life form living within a vast sea upon a world so ginormous that our stellar world would be 10,000 times smaller then a speck of dust!
Likewise, one's living embodiments of atomized cellular cosmologies are merely a chasm of self-similar congruencies quite like our celestial domain whereupon if one were to be small enough to be found upon the surface of a single atomized realm, one could look out from such an atomized realm and see a quaint similarity toward our celestial constraints within our viewable night skies.
All that we (our bodies) are is as being an atomized cosmos of cellular formed mini universes living upon a planetary cosmology of atomized bi-products made by celestial stabilities created in sequential productivities of sedimentary allowances made from the very beginnings of cosmological creations sanctifications afforded breathes of the cosmic being our universe is found being within!
Translation of Loopy Lump of the Jungle's post:
LL thinks women are sl-uts and who-res. He abused his own brother. He is mentally ill.
Tom,
What childhood fantasia are you keeping hid from the general populace that you feel ashamed to tell? I can understand your desires to keep such things secret based upon your own admissions of blaming someone who came clean. We wouldn't want someone to rant and make raves of your hidden secrets of your youth now would we Tom?
Too bad for you LL, but most people don't abuse their own brothers and sisters, and I certainly never did anything of the kind. You can try to project your own abomination on others but it won't work.
You have no business passing judgment on women and girls who do nothing worse than you did to your own brother.
Tom,
My brother and I have now been living together ever since our mother died and passed on. We love each other more than you will ever know. I love my brother and he loves me! We are of the same bloodline and of the same life. We give each other a shoulder to lean on when one gets depressed. WE love our parents despite their ills done against us in their life. No mere mortal is without wrong done deeds. I've wronged many times in my life and I will have to pay the price when I die and am judged by thhe powers that be and do give life after death's gate is reached.
Tom,
I a guilt ridden about my youth and do not need to ever be reminded by your likes. Yes, I was wrong in my youth and yet my brother loves me! That is all that truly matters to me. We can go round and round Tom with your ranting and raving against my youths wrongfulness deed done.
Any parent who willfully allows their teens to get away with any acts of lovemaking should have their own heads examined for allowing children to engage in such acts! Yes, I said women are tramps and I stand resolute upon my saying it. Any parent that allows their child to engage in s e x u a l actions should be held responsible and shunned and demoralized for their willingness to let their child do the dirty deed! Do you Tom, allow your teenager(s) to engage in wanton acts of lovemaking even though they are as yet children?
You are a pedophile. You do not have any right to judge anyone else. Ever. For anything. You ought to be insti tutionalized.
Where do you get off calling young women "tramps" when you committed a crime? You abused a child. It wasn't consensual. It was wrong.
There is nothing criminal about teenagers having s3x. Forcing your sibling to engage in it is a crime. That's what YOU did.
tom tom – i used to antagonize the absolute heck out of my older sister...
i remember blacking in all the squares in the crossword at the back of the tv guide....
or –
when i'd make her a sammich... i'd turn the bread around opposite.
there's more....
i'm ashamed now.
Yeah, Anvil, LL obviously sees his abuse as just a little brotherly carousing.
He's sick, and not just harmlessly so.
yah = sorry tomtom – it wasn't until i posted my inane drivel that i realized what you were saying..
yes – ll is very disturbed.
now i really feel ashamed for making an inane statement about the abuse i handed out to my sister...
sorry
No worries.
I'm just disgusted by LL's misogyny. He's a boil on the butt of the human race.
tom tomi s a very sick, psychotic individual. Do not engage this in conversations.