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January 28th, 2013
05:19 AM ET

Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Monday, January 28, 2013

By Arielle Hawkins, CNN

Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.

From the Blog:

CNN: Recounting the nightmares of the Holocaust…
Photographer Maciek Nabrdalik was visiting a Holocaust memorial and museum in Poland when he noticed an obituary posted for one of the survivors. The next day there was another one. “At that moment I realized that we are the last generation who can approach them to talk and ask questions,” he said. Since then, he has sat down with more than 40 former camp prisoners to help tell their stories for his ongoing project, “The Irreversible.”

CNN: Lawyers for Catholic hospital argue that a fetus is not a person…
Life begins at conception, according to the Catholic Church, but in a wrongful death suit in Colorado, a Catholic health care company has argued just the opposite. A fetus is not legally a person until it is born, the hospital's lawyers have claimed in its defense. And now it may be up to the state's Supreme Court to decide.

CNN: Iran sentences U.S. pastor to 8 years in prison, group says…
An Iranian judge has sentenced an American Christian pastor to eight years in prison after he was tried for his religious beliefs, a U.S.-based religious group said Sunday. Saeed Abedini was swiftly sentenced by a member of the Islamic Republic's Revolutionary Court, according to the American Center for Law and Justice, an organization founded by television evangelist Pat Robertson. CNN was not immediately able to confirm what went on in the court proceedings.

CNN: 'None' leaders to chart path for more political, cultural power for religiously unaffiliated…
The religiously unaffiliated – the "nones" – have noticed their ranks are growing. And at a meeting Saturday, a group of leaders looked to turn those swelling numbers into workable political and cultural power. It's one of the top priorities of the eighth annual Heads Meeting, which will be held in Atlanta. Some of the nation’s most influential leaders, representing various organizations, convened to chart a path forward and discuss the most important issues facing "nones" today.

Photos of the Day:

A street dancer performs during the annual Grand Santo Nino Procession in Manila on January 27, 2013. The annual Grand Santo Nino Procession features almost 300 floats with different images of the child Jesus flown in from various parts of the country. The Philippines is Asia's bastion of Catholicism and the Sto Nino feast is one among dozens of religious festivals honoring various saints and religious icons, a legacy of three centuries of Spanish rule across the archipelago.

Filipino Christian devotees display their religious icons of the baby Jesus during the annual Grand Santo Nino Procession in Manila on January 27, 2013

Hindu devotees make their way up the 272 steps to the entrance of the Batu Caves during the Thaipusam procession on January 27, 2013 in Batu Caves, Malaysia. Thaipusam is a Hindu festival celebrated on the full moon in the Tamil month of Thai. The festival marks the birthday of Lord Muruga and also commemorates the day Hindu Goddess Parvati gave her son a lance to defeat the evil demon Soorapadamwhen.

Hindu devotees carry a statue while making their way towards the Batu Caves to perform their religious during the Thaipusam Festival on the outskirts of Kuala Lumpur on January 28, 2013.

Enlightening Reads:

New York Times: In Fight Over Life, a New Call by Catholics…
The March for Life in Washington on Friday renewed the annual impassioned call to end legalized abortion, 40 years after the Roe v. Wade decision. But this year, some Roman Catholic leaders and theologians are asking why so many of those who call themselves “pro-life” have been silent, or even opposed, when it comes to controlling the guns that have been used to kill and injure millions of Americans.

Huffington Post: NYPD Muslim Spying Lawsuit Moves Forward
"I'm laughing. I'm laughing on the phone right now," said Syed Farhaj Hassan. "That's hysterical." That's how Hassan reacted when he heard that the New York City Police Department blames the press for exposing its Muslim surveillance program - and not its own cops for running it. Hassan is the lead plaintiff in an ongoing lawsuit by the non-profit group Muslim Advocates over the NYPD's extension of its spying program into New Jersey. The group dropped its latest filing in the case on Friday.

The Guardian: Russian gay rights activists detained as MPs vote for 'propaganda' bill…
Russian police have detained 20 gay rights campaigners and militant Orthodox Christian activists near parliament as politicians overwhelmingly backed a bill that would ban "homosexual propaganda". Russia's State Duma, the lower house of parliament, voted 388-1-1 for the law that makes public events and the dissemination of information on the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, or LGBT, community to minors punishable by fines of up to $16,000 (£10,000). After two more readings, the bill will have to be signed by President Vladimir Putin.

Religion News Service: Catholic college engages atheism head-on…
Talk about an unlikely course in an unlikely place. The main chapel at Jesuit-run Regis College at the University of Toronto is adorned with stained glass windows, icons of Mary and Joseph, and the Stations of the Cross. The eight-week course, which meets every Wednesday afternoon, is on atheism. Or more precisely, “Responding to 21st-Century Atheism.” It’s an attempt, says the Rev. Scott Lewis, for people of faith to understand and come to terms with the increasingly muscular secularism and atheism that has arisen in Western societies over the past generation.

Quote of the Day:

On this day, we recall the courage, spirit, and determination of those who heroically resisted the Nazis, exemplifying the very best of humanity. And like these courageous individuals, we must commit ourselves to resisting hate and persecution in all its forms.

–Statement by President Barack Obama on International Holocaust Remembrance Day

Opinion of the Day:

My Take: An American Jew finds MLK – and a new understanding – on the West Bank…
Arri Eisen, PhD. – professor of pedagogy at Emory University’s Center for Ethics, Department of Biology and Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts – says the symbolism of President Barack Obama’s inauguration falling on Martin Luther King Day was not lost on many of the Palestinians he met while at the West Bank. “Who would have thought in Martin Luther King’s day that you would now have a black president? If that can happen in the U.S., then maybe one day there can be peace here,” he heard.

Join the conversation…

CNN: Twitter must identify racist, anti-Semitic posters, French court says…
For months now, the French-language twittersphere has lit up with a rash of racist, homophobic, and anti-Semitic tweets using the hashtags #UnBonJuif (a good Jew), #SiMonFilsEstGay (if my son is gay), and #SiMaFilleRamèneUnNoir (if my daughter brings home a black guy). Last fall, under pressure from French advocacy group Union of Jewish Students (UEJF), Twitter agreed to remove some offensive tweets. In October 2012, at Berlin's request, Twitter also suspended a German neo-Nazi account based in the city of Hanover, the first time the company had responded to such a government request.

- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Uncategorized

soundoff (280 Responses)
  1. lionlylamb

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uRpxhlX4Ga0

    January 28, 2013 at 7:52 pm |
  2. lionlylamb

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f15thOvhE38&feature=player_embedded

    January 28, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
  3. The Thinker

    Religion is awesome.

    January 28, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • December

      Aw, thanks.

      January 28, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
  4. lionlylamb

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gHBs-jI7pZQ

    January 28, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      BTW, a "nanometer" is one billionth of a meter,,,, quite small a scale for us to build upon,,,

      January 28, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4kHLj8la2Fo

      January 28, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludLU4_6ZDM&feature=player_embedded

      January 28, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • pee wee

      That's not new – I saw those things on some Mork and Mindy re-runs. he he.

      January 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
  5. Apple Bush

    Who showed "lionlylamb" how to post video goddammit?? I am gone for a few weeks and this happens!

    January 28, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hey, at least it keeps him away from his brother AND he doesn't write as much drivel.

      How ARE you, AB?

      January 28, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • Akira

      AB, he learned this a few days ago, and he's been a posting ho ever since...

      January 28, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • Apple Bush

      I am doing fine Tom Tom, thanks. You?. I think this is going to be trouble Akira.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • Al

      Speaking of drivel, I'm glad that "Atheism is unhealthy for children and other livings" finally got committed to a mental hospital.

      January 28, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
  6. helem

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUSUAStbXpQ

    January 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • helem

      this is from corazon puro....we are a prolife generation and please help us to make a goal of 1 million hits for life 🙂

      January 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • Sleeping Beauty

      Like!

      January 28, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
  7. Sleeping Beauty

    My! Oh my! what immoral values this world has gotten into?

    January 28, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
  8. December

    Lord, make me easy to live with. Amen.

    January 28, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • October

      If you leave my All-Hallows alone, I might be nice and give you more warmth and some pretty colors . . . bitch.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
  9. lionlylamb

    What We Still Don't Know: "Are We Real?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM&feature=player_detailpage

    January 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • pee wee

      I guess if we were only partially real, we would be a tiny fractal component, and the symmetry of it all doesn't make sense unless you were able to see the whole thing at once. So what we are that only looks disjointed is merely something that's less than what would be on the head of a pin. Right? he he

      January 28, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      pee wee,

      Our Celestial Cosmos being made up of far too many universes much like our own universe of which all are made up of an ongoing infinity of atomized cosmos and our bodies are cellular universes of the infinitesimally small but well regulated atomic cosmos. We live to be while in being one is and in understandings does one dare to dream up that which might well be!

      January 28, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
  10. lionlylamb

    The Universe Has No Center... and You're Not There

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kjvXkoDCJ0&feature=player_detailpage

    January 28, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • niknak

      59 minutes?!?
      Do you really expect someone to sit thru that bull for that long?
      I would rather read one of your babbling posts then watch that drivel.

      January 28, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      niknak,

      Instead of watching the video listen to it while you are reading other's posts,,,

      The infinity of the Cosmos is derived from the infinite amounts of atomized universes being birthed in each and every celestially relevant universe within the finite Cosmos of infinity’s ongoing engrams regulatory increments of specialized atomically uniformed existentialisms.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • .

      LL is the belief blog pseudo intellect, don't bother reading the drivel, just laugh and move on.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • pee wee

      So if I got this correctly, in the land of the cosmos, we are the champions! he he

      January 28, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      pee wee,

      We or rather one's body is but a living Cosmos of multi-mini-universes we call as being cellular in our biology books.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Loser took the ending of Men in Black MUCH too literally.

      January 28, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
  11. Robert Brown

    Damocles,

    Is this the post you were interested in?

    “So let's say there's this kid and his dad and you know, as kids are wont to do, the kid disobeys the father. Well the father is a mean old coot and just punches the kid everytime for everything, I mean whales on the kid, bruises, broken bones, the whole ten yards. Is that father justified in hiring the bully down the street to kind of hammer home the idea that no kid of his is going to go against his wishes? Of course, after all that, he's not done with the kid yet, not by a long shot. After the bully gets done with the kid (not even getting into why the father would have to hire out the dirty deed) the father starts whaling on him again.

    You side with the father, correct?”

    No, I wouldn’t side with the father.

    God will judge sin, but he will be patient and merciful before he does.

    Have you ever read the book of Hosea?

    God told him to marry a prosti.tute, they had children, she went back to prosti.tution. God told him to go get her back, he did. He loved her, even though he hated the things she did. She broke his heart, but he still loved her and forgave her.

    God was showing Hosea his behaviour toward the children of Israel. They betrayed him, he went and got them. They betrayed him, he took them back.

    It is a message for us today. We have betrayed him, we broke his heart, but he loves us so much, that he will take us back. If we mess up again, he will forgive us and take us back again.

    God’s forgiveness is very appealing to me.

    January 28, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • amy

      ask Robert Brown where government and laws come from. but get some popcorn first.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Pete

      "It is a message for us today. We have betrayed him, we broke his heart, but he loves us so much, that he will take us back. If we mess up again, he will forgive us and take us back again.

      God’s forgiveness is very appealing to me."

      Not unless you repent. If your god was so loving it wouldn't need hell and everyone would get into heaven. But since your god is a fictional character and fear sells, hell was created. How many times you hear christians say it's better to believe just in case.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Pete,

      God knows your heart and mind. You are better off not to pretend with God.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • Pete

      "God knows your heart and mind. You are better off not to pretend with God."

      I don't have too, your god is fiction just like all the other gods in history.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
    • Science

      Robert what did you say makes the rain ?

      Do you like the talking snake too?

      January 28, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      What the father did in the above scenario is nothing compared to what Christians say hell is, so I'm not sure I understand the analogy.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Again, your god creates billions of people knowing that they are going to hell to be tortured for eternity. Your god created them knowing there was no way they will ever get to heaven. And yet, your god creates them anyway.

      What a sick disgusting fucker you have chosen to worship.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • Pete

      Primewonk, you chose 2 Peter 2:2   And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Pete,

      Ah, so Peter (and Paul) used the tactic: "I'm going to tell you some quite outrageous, unbelievable, unfounded things. Beware, bad people are going to dispute them and debunk them." Gee, they musta been real 'prophets', eh?

      "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. It is I, the powerful Oz, speaking."

      January 28, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      In manliness is sin made manifest thru the natured ways of womanly nurturing manifested in word and upon the deed to so be done. What more than womanhood lays in the baron fields of manhood's issues of desiring wants and wanton ways? Who therefore of the womanly nurtured gives rise to manhood's needs, desires and wants in fleshly natures? Are not women of civilizations' betterment in supplications fomentations? Is it not that behind any a great man stood in his midst a servile woman? Nowadays, the woman seeks after that which were once mankind's most holy plains. Bid the women who rise above the crowds their rightful adorations! Give to the peasants of both genders their needed goods!

      Love Let Us,
      Love Lettuce.
      G.O.D.
      God's Oldest Dreamer

      January 28, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • amy

      I wonder if the lion is a vegetarian. He's always talking about lettuce.

      January 28, 2013 at 6:04 pm |
  12. truth be told

    There is nothing on earth quite as useless as an atheist. All atheists are liars. Use this Truth when ever an atheist slug posts a comment and you'll see them in the proper perspective.

    January 28, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "truth be told", but your repeated assertions regarding atheism are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 28, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Pete

      "All atheists are liars. "

      More lies from the xtians – 159!

      January 28, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • truth be told

      It doesn't take long for some atheist horses ass to come along and add proof to my comments.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Wow

      No, TBT it only proves you're a disgusting troll.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Good afternoon, captain azzhole. There's your sign.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Akira

      Shut the fuck up, you insipid old hag.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • Which God?

      @POTUK. Ahh, a spelling nazi. Well, ex-fukking-cuse me. I'm not a typist. As for your question, YOU never asked me one, azzhole. Go pound sand, little boy.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • POTUK

      @ Which God
      haha, such an angry elf. Nothing I love more than pounding sand! now the questions that you skipped over to reply to my sarcasm were:

      Do you ever examine what you don't believe and why you don't believe it? Then do you disrespect those that believe what you don't believe?

      January 28, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
    • Really?

      "Do you ever examine what you don't believe and why you don't believe it? Then do you disrespect those that believe what you don't believe?"

      Obviously you do which is why you keep asking the stupid question.

      January 28, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • POTUK

      @Really

      Not sure I understand? You're saying I'm being disrespectful by asking this question because I, myself, must be examining what I don't believe. If I were answering my own question, I would say no, so not sure where you're going with that response.

      January 28, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • Pete

      Luke 13:23   Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

      Luke 13:24   Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Pete

      "Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

      Because god doesn't exist and some idiots can't figure it out.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • truth be told

      The idiots that cannot figure anything out are the useless liars that call themselves atheists.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • truth be told

      The Lord will rise up and cast all of you filthy lying sinners into the Lake of Fire soon.

      January 28, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, yeah, there's your sign. *Yawn*

      January 28, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      So your god did a poor job then to create the majority of people on earth as atheists and other non-christians.

      January 28, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
    • fred

      In santa we trust
      No, Gods plan seems to be working out just as it should. Although God would not want any to perish you have been put exactly where you need to be so that the true disposition of your soul can reveal itself.
      Why so much darkness inside of you Santa? God has a free gift for Santa called life eternal. Exactly why do you reject a gift without at least opening it up?

      January 28, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred, You seem to feel that someone who does not depend upon an imaginary supernatural being is dark inside. I am neither dependent upon an imaginary supernatural being nor dark inside. Don't you see the inconsistencies of your religion even though they are pointed out quite frequently? None so blind as they who will not see.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      So fred, you think your god allowing 35 million likely followers to be aborted, and the recent slaughter of innocent children, is a good and working plan? You are sicker than I previously thought.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • Dark Helmet

      So, Fred, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • fred

      In Santa we Trust
      Santa you said: “So your god did a poor job then to create the majority of people on earth as atheists and other non-christians”

      =>I fail to see anything resembling a positive note in your tone. The Bible paints stark contrasts in order that we fully understand. In the beginning the spirit of God hovered over the dark formless waters. Let there be light and the word of God separated the light from the darkness. Without the presence of the Word of God there is only darkness.
      Your statement that God did a poor job is not only wrong it is very negative (dark). The intent was clear as to paint eternal glory with the brush stroke of deceit. Even if you do not personally believe then at least let the truth be truth. God creates, God is creator, God is eternal and by His word we have a hope in a promise Land. Everybody ever born will have the opportunity to accept or reject that Promised Land. God is goodness.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • fred

      HotAirAce
      It was the creation that demanded their way was preferable to God. What you are speaking about is the result of the creation going about in its state of naturalism which most atheists seem to hang their hat on. Without God the natural way takes root. This result was already known to God as well as the entire journey we call existence. Man cannot exist without God and God made a way for man to return if man so chooses.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "fred", but "God", "the Word of God", "God is creator", "His word", and "Promised Land" are all elements of mythology therefore your assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL".

      January 28, 2013 at 7:47 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And there goes fred uselessly spouting anything he can to not address what's even being posted.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • fred

      Dark Helmet
      In the beginning God separated the light from the darkness. In the beginning God created wonder out of that dark formless mass. We are in the 7th day of creation where it appears God is resting. You need to remember that from an eternal perspective the beginning and end are as one. Evil is already separated from good. Take a close look at the difference between one that is Christ like and one that is not. It was Evil that lost when Christ from cross called out it is finished.
      You need to stop extrapolating philosophical naturalism beyond it confined time line. By definition and by the very laws of nature your philosophy is bound by its own chains. I like the way the Bible puts it……..you are in bondage to sin.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Are you kidding me? You go off on an entire irrelevant paragraph from a movie quote? Are you just trying to be ridiculous now?

      January 28, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Sure, but fred how do you know that there is anything eternal? How do you know there is a God? How do you know that the stuff you believe and say isn't just lies? I don't think you want to be a liar.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:56 pm |
    • fred

      hal 9001
      Philosophical Naturalism is an illogical extension of facts and any assumptions are unfounded when they extend beyond baryonic matter as well.

      January 28, 2013 at 7:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      You have this really massive fixation on your philosophical naturalism assumption, not to mention conflating it to ignoring your "evidence" (that you never really seem to give) of the supernatural. Then of course there's you ignoring what's actually being posted and going on irrelevant tangent after irrelevant tangent.

      January 28, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "fred", but your assertions are unfounded. Your assertions, "fred" rely on unfounded assumptions based on biased theory and unfounded assumptions based on mythology rather than fully understanding what is currently knowable. I'm afraid your truth value is still 0, "fred".

      January 28, 2013 at 8:08 pm |
    • fred

      Tom, Tom, the Other One
      If I did not have a personal experience that lined up with what the Bible says I would be agnostic. I saw what was previously not visible as reality. That is how I know it is not a lie.
      The truth of the Bible plays out before our very eyes that is not a lie.
      Eternal is self evident. Do you not see that? All available evidence presents the scope, power and vastness of the external to be without limits (i.e. our universe and beyond). All available evidence presents the smallest observable matter to be without limits in reduction. First cause is of infinite regress etc. etc.
      Now, I will agree if the eternal was not self evident there is no God as this would be inconsistent with the bible and my personal experience. In that case I have been sadly mistaken

      January 28, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
    • fred

      hal 9001

      If there is no absolute truth your truth value and my truth value are 0 or 1 but they would be the same. This invalidates your argument and demands a single constant that 1 and 0 are dependent upon. That is the truth as presented by the narrative of a chosen people 3,400 years ago. I like the way Moses told the story much better

      January 28, 2013 at 8:28 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “You have this really massive fixation on your philosophical naturalism assumption, not to mention conflating it to ignoring your "evidence" (that you never really seem to give) of the supernatural.”
      =>one more time, there is no evidence for the supernatural. Every time we find evidence for the super natural guess what? It’s not supernatural anymore !

      January 28, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Translation of fred's blah, blah, blah: he's ok with whatever his god lets happen. What a wimp!

      January 28, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Then without evidence, your assertions are useless. If it cannot even be demonstrated, then it is indistinguishable from non-existence. Now, you can actually demonstrate the supernatural if a phenomena happens within the material that would normally be impossible within natural law.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I don't understand, if it can be explained by natural causes how can it be super natural?

      January 29, 2013 at 12:17 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Are you truly unable to see the difference between a natural explanation for a phenomena and the observation of a phenomena?

      January 29, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Conversion experiences are observable yet you deny they are evidence of the supernatural.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • ¿¿lol

      Conversion experiences. LOL. Evidence??? LOL.. please fred, you get more ridiculous every day.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • fred

      ¿¿lol
      What is your take on why a sudden transformation takes place as with Saul of Tarsus. We are speaking of the difference between one that is “born again” with a new heart, a new mind, a new way of life, a new perspective of the world. The reality of God’s presence is suddenly all around the new birth. What was not visible is now fully visible. We are speaking of the eternal nature that is Spirit being imparted to one that was just as you are moments before.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred, My statement that god did a poor job is correct (why would a god create the majority of people as non-believers in that god) and is not negative (you may not like it but that does not make it dark). There is no known eternal glory. The "truth" that you believe will only be confirmed as such with evidence. There is no proof of a god and therefore no proof that god creates, that god is a creator, that god is eternal. As all of your posting is predicated on that – you need to find some proof.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Conversion experiences are useless in terms of evidence for a few reasons.
      1) Other religions have the same conversion experiences.
      2) A conversion experience (a drastic change in a persons mentallity), can be had without any religion.

      I've pointed this out before fred. Conversion experiences are completely worthless.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Your "argument" is classic Non-sequitur.
      "People change when they join a new religion, or accept something as true, therefore my god exists"
      Sorry, but no.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • fred

      In Santa we trust
      Is there anything you accept without evidence as existing?
      I do not recall if you answered this but is our known universe and what comes before or after our known universe finite or eternal

      January 29, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I am speaking about a radical transformation such as you coming on this site tomorrow morning and claiming Jesus is the way the truth and the life !
      There are many that get "religion" in jail or through an AA program but there has not been a rebirth or new power in them.

      January 29, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And I will once again point out that other religions have those same sort of converts, and people change drastically without any religion at all, which you seem to be studiously ignoring.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      That would leave us only with those things that are self evident. Is eternity self evident or is existence itself (inclusive of time and space before and after our known universe) finite? How do you know this?

      January 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      No, that would leave us in the position that many different beliefs and outlooks can have convergent effects, and perhaps outcomes as well. It leaves us without a way to draw a causal relationship between a change in a person, and the persons particular religion or irreligion. I think you know this, which is why you jumped all the way to your new favorite phrase, even though it's another non-sequitur.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
    • fred

      Yes, I understand conversion experience is not unique to a particular religion. That is ok because once we accept the change is the result of a force outside of the individual then we can discuss which belief is right. That is the easy part as there is only one God possible.

      So, is existence inclusive of time and space before and after our known universe finite or eternal?

      January 29, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      No, we don't just accept that there is an outside force playing a part, because we can point to similar changes in outlook and behaviour without religion or appeals to magic. Stop trying to get away from a clear point in which you're wrong by continuing to bring up an irrelevant question that isn't even well formed.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • fred

      Ok, how about some examples of a conversion experience that create a radical transformation of an individual absent of dependence on faith in God (or what you consider god/gods).

      January 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      For one, me. When I deconverted and actually thought about all the things I believed, accepted, and thought about morality, my life and actions changed dramatically for the better. My outlook is infintely more altruistic, and I care more about doing well in this life than I ever did as a christian. I am more active in helping others, and value the relationships I have now so much more than before. Everything about my life has changed for the better after shucking the weight of unproven and irrational beliefs.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:02 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Flimsy personal experience is still flimsy no matter who provides it as evidence. Empirical evidence, or GTFO.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • fred

      A Christian is one that has have given his life to Christ. In doing so actions become more and more Christ like over time. There is the freedom and a power that the Holy Spirit imparts into the soul of the Believer that brings joy and peace in the undying service to others. The love that springs from that soul is greater than ever imagined. This is why converts are willing to die and go to Jail rather than recant.
      The yoke of Christ is not a weight. Sounds like you were being oppressed by a false Christianity. If you experienced God then you would not forget the burning holiness that is God and burning passion God has to redeem the lost.
      Your conversion from an oppressive religious cult to lack of oppression is liberating but not a radical transformation. A positive change may be noticeable but is to be expected. This is not supernatural it is a natural experience of change for the better. Now, If you can tell me about your soul and the eternal self existent creator you knew before your unconversion then we have a supernatural experience.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Are you just purposefully changing the scope of what we're talking about on purpose? How fucking dare you even attempt to determine how I was treated in the church or how I was raised. How dare you be so amazingly fucking arrogant to tell me how I changed, and what changed in my life.
      You will just use anything you can to avoid admitting that YOU. ARE. WRONG. Pathetic pile of shit that you are, I doubt you'll answer this, choosing to ignore how much of a colossal ass you just were in favor of "oh look at that he's saying naughty naughty words my poor little feelings boo hoo hoo".

      January 29, 2013 at 7:36 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      If you really want to know what I think just look at your post. My thought is you came from a very abusive cult or Priest and ran into the arms of atheism in an effort to reconcile a loving God that would allow a child to suffer abuse of any kind. Now, that comment is deserving of hysterics.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      No, fred, hysterics are not called for. Shed no tears. It's just God arranging a horrendous situation for the later, maybe much later, glorification of his holy name.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Well, as usual, you would be completely fucking wrong. And also as usual, your thought comes from absolutely no justified grounds, and is merely another assumption to justify your conclusion. And finally, agains as usual, you completely fucking ignore your colossal arrogance.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:50 pm |
    • ¿¿lol

      fred, the biblical story of Paul is just a story. It wouldn't be a good story if they hadn't put something compelling there such as his alleged transformation. But we don't really have anything to confirm the claims there – certainly not any of the claims involving a higher being. It's all very flimsy. Fable at best. We also know the early apologists were so embarrassed by how much their gospel stories looked like previous pagan writings that they said that those earlier writings were a pre-emptive strike by Satan. Now really, fred. Time to get serious and stop trying to convince people of your silly folklore. I would ask you for evidence, but people have done so time and again, and time and again you've failed them, fred.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:59 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      You confuse arrogance for directness which hits that I need a hug button. I would give you a hug but you need a supernatural hug that has eternal value.
      Seriously you do not compare the evil form of Christianity you experienced with what Jesus expressed as the way the truth and the light of His Gospel?
      No, I am not changing the subject which is attempting to establish if you had a conversion experience that brought about sudden radical transformation. It may have been an awakening to the cult that gave you an ungodly experience but that experience was not the way of Christ.

      January 29, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • fred

      ¿¿lol
      You ask me for evidence which even Jesus would not give the Sanhedrin. We are not talking about matters of science which deal only with the created things as we are talking about the Creator. There should not be any confusion that the things of God rarely are the things of man if any at all. Even the Bible makes it clear that evidence and reason will not bring you the knowledge of God. This is because God is not a created thing He is the Creator. God simply is. How can you expect to apply scientific methodology to matter that was never created having substance without beginning and end?
      As to Paul he is one of the most accepted writers of the New Testament with history and docu-mentation that runs right up into arguments within the church as to who was the first Pope. If you claim he made it all up that makes for one grand conspiracy.
      Now, if God says faith is the only way to know God why would He then turn around and provide scientific proof that requires faith in man rather than faith in God?

      January 29, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • amy

      fred: "You ask me for evidence which even Jesus would not give the Sanhedrin. "

      That's right, they didn't have any excuse to back up their story and so still today there is no evidence because . . . . . there is no evidence. Whether Paul knew what the gig was or whether he just believed doesn't matter. They didn't have the where with all in those days to know how to verify anything – so they just believed and took and chance – which is all you'll ever do fred is believe and take a chance without knowing even one real fact about a higher being. You can continue to convince yourself and that's what is normal for someone who has lived a delusion for a long time. But don't for a minute think you can pull the wool over anyone's eyes who listens to your circular validation and logic.

      January 29, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • fred

      Amy
      You are not that different as you know scientific evidence will not prove anything that is not comprised of known baryonic matter. You have zip proof of anything outside the natural and limit your horizon of knowledge by that which is known to be self limiting. By calling that which eclipses the known by a term other than God does not elevate your belief.

      You should be ashamed that you continue to demand measurement from that which cannot be measured. Measurement is something man is hung up on because man is a created thing as is everything man can observe in nature. This is all we know and as far as we have come. We measure height, length, width and depth. We measure the height of a mountain or the diameter of the sun and the atom yet measurements do not apply to God. God is infinite, eternal and self existent within and without our established boundaries.

      God answers the question of why we exist. We cannot know how to achieve the highest level of purpose if we ignore the reason we are here. Science and all that man accomplishes is a testament to the creative ability as is cognitive awareness of soul. There is no downside to the awareness of spiritual and physical attributes of self. Certain aspects of existence only present themselves as self evident. The quest for proof in that area only is only beneficial in highlighting the current boundaries of knowledge. Faith is one of those areas.

      Believers require faith in that which defies science and reason. The presence of faith is self evident. The affect of faith regardless of how foolish you find Paul to be was to establish a world view that remains to this day. It is the evidence of faith not science or reason that propels the belief in God and establishes the purpose of man. You may not like it but facts are facts.

      January 30, 2013 at 1:03 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And there you go again. Have you found a new "argument" to avoid actually addressing anything. Merely assume you know what my experience was with christianity merely because you think you can? There is your fucking arrogance you stupid piece of shit. Thinking you could possibly know anything about my life that I haven't divulged. How much of a dishonest, arrogant, stupid fuck are you planning to be with this fred. How far do you plan on taking this? How much are you willing to show about yourself with your idiocy?

      January 30, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • amy

      fred is like an old rusted wind-up Jeebus doll that can't provide any reasonable evidence for his sleep-inducing blabberings. it's best to not get too excited about it.

      January 30, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Your language and calm manner would most likely lead me to belive you converted from zen. Peace and blessing to you where ever you go.

      January 30, 2013 at 11:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Yes, continue to completely avoid anything of relevance fred. Continue to completely skirt around the clear demonstration of your arrogance and self-righteous idiocy. It merely shows how much of a pathetic, useless person you really are.

      January 31, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
  13. lionlylamb

    The nothingness of celestial based fabricators' embodied being is but likened to a proprietary anti-genuine fractal sublimation of baselessness evolving from senselessness issues relegated onto herded dimensionalities giving births to and toward sheer randomized fluxes of emotionalized continuations within the bigotries of high and even low minded witticisms.

    January 28, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • psych ward staff

      Uh oh, someone threw up their word salad again. Clean-up on page 2 – pronto.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • .

      LL is the belief blog pseudo intellect, don't bother reading, just laugh and move on.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • Akira

      "Anti-genuine". LOL!

      49.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • Which God?

      LL is more like the genuine fractured nothingness that is in his thought process. Word salad indeed...tossed.

      January 28, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • meifumado

      What no video clips today?

      January 28, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      I watched them all,,,,,

      Laser Pumped Flying Saucer Spacecraft

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAdj6vpYppA

      Antimatter Spacecraft Propulsion The Future Is Now

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNJvmsnQ1Z0&feature=player_detailpage

      Antimatter: The Future is Now Part 1 of 5 Revision 1.1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkzIOI33Fm4&feature=player_detailpage

      Introduction videos of AIST – Nanotechnology, Materials and Manufacturing –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gHBs-jI7pZQ

      Materials Science at the Intersections of Nanotechnology, Life Sciences and Medicine

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKZR2Gvf6TU

      Aerogels: The Materials Science of Empty Space

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mAJWyRIDDVQ

      January 28, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
  14. Thomas Jefferson

    Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science.
    ..

    January 28, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
  15. Science

    Still laughing robert god made the little what ???

    According to your post above what makes the rain Robert?

    Just add water for life.

    .

    January 28, 2013 at 11:36 am |
  16. myweightinwords

    Morning folks, hope everyone had a good weekend. It was beautiful here, though I was stuck inside with laundry. Wanted to get out with my camera...maybe next weekend...

    Last week what started as Live4Him and I telling something of our stories grew into lengthy conversations about faith and change, belief and truth and personal experience. I think we established that I enjoy hearing people's stories and digging in to discover how and why we're different, particularly when we come from similar backgrounds, and that Live4Him is here to proselytize.

    While these two things can certainly be in conflict with one another, I'm hoping civil discourse can continue.

    In that spirit, let me ask a question to everyone...

    Do you ever examine what you believe and why you believe it? Does that belief change and grow as you do?

    January 28, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • Akira

      Good morning, MWIW; you have the knack of picking extremely thought-provoking topics.
      My beliefs constantly evolve. I certainly don't think the same way I did as a young child, a young adult, or even as I did 15 years ago.
      Speaking only for myself, I think that beliefs change and grow as we do.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:11 am |
      • myweightinwords

        I do enjoy provoking thinking, Akira!

        January 28, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      I think about it all the time. Thinking about the reason why I believed in something was one of the reasons I changed that belief. As I grew older I realized I only ever believed because I was afraid of Hell. So I thought if that was my only motivation, I was bound to go there anyway. That was enough for me to take the time to reevaluate my beliefs seriously. And then of course there was the whole whales having leg bones thing.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:23 am |
      • myweightinwords

        I tend to think that an unexamined belief is a weak one.

        January 28, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • Pete

      "Do you ever examine what you believe and why you believe it? Does that belief change and grow as you do?"

      Belief's only change if you are open to change, learning and facing your fear head-on, otherwise you never grow as a person. I had an uncle that was prejudice toward African Americans all of his life even though he really didn't get to know them. He would use the "n" word too. His belief's never changed. I have friends who are gay whose parents disowned them because of their religion, they died in a tragic car accident and the parents didn't even show up for the funeral. In order to grow you have to be willing to open up to the fact that we are products of our environment and learning. My viewpoint on life and my life lessons makes me who I am but that doesn't mean you see the world the same way. It's the greatest barrier when trying to communicate with others. I often get in trouble in the real world because I do challenge peoples beliefs and opinions on life. I am often viewed as harsh and blunt for being to direct, it’s a flaw I am working on. Some people don’t want to know the truth about themselves because they haven’t developed the skills in self-love and self-realization.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:29 am |
      • myweightinwords

        Fortunately, not everyone is cut off from growth.

        My mother was once very anti-LGBT. Then she got to know a few folks before she knew they were gay...suddenly gays were not as scary and not as evil as she had believed them to be.

        January 28, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • Topher

      "Do you ever examine what you believe and why you believe it? Does that belief change and grow as you do?"

      Absolutely. I trust it when I read something in the Bible. But I love it when I read how science, history, archaeology or whatever backs it up. And I suppose my beliefs have changed since I was born again, but it was just my beliefs growing deeper.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:34 am |
      • myweightinwords

        How does trusting what you believe equal examining what you believe and why?

        Do you ever look at the basics of what you believe and why? Put down the bible and look at yourself?

        Do you ever read something that challenges what you believe, and consider it, hold it up to what you believe? Weigh the balance?

        January 28, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • POTUK

      Do you ever examine what you don't believe and why you don't believe it? Then do you disrespect those that believe what you don't believe? Nevermind...who has time for that?

      January 28, 2013 at 11:35 am |
      • myweightinwords

        I would think that examining what you don't believe and why comes with examining what you do believe and why.

        January 28, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • Thoughts

      Changing core beliefs that you have grown up with over the years may seem a daunting prospect, especially if you are wanting to become more confident and self assured. But one thing you need to understand about your beliefs is that most of them, contrary to what the majority of people think, have not been shaped by the world around you, or the life you have lived.

      Most of the core beliefs you have at present will have actually shaped how you see events in your life, not the other way round, events shaping what you believe. So, in other words, it’s not what has happened to you in your life that makes you have a particular belief in something, it’s what you have believed you want to happen when an event occurs, and by changing core beliefs within you, you will find that your confidence grows and you become more positive in outlook.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:39 am |
    • Paul

      "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

      January 28, 2013 at 11:42 am |
      • myweightinwords

        That tells me how a guy who lived 2000 years ago feels about my question.

        I'm more interested in what you have to say.

        January 28, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Really?

      Paul, are you capable of thinking for yourself?

      January 28, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • Paul

      @Really
      Dude/Dudet, chill. Sometimes people use a quote because it best describes their words. Think for myself? yes Always have the best words? no Just relax and try to be a little considerate of those who don't believe as you do. I promise to do the same.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      "How does trusting what you believe equal examining what you believe and why?"

      You may not have heard my story before. I didn't grow up a Christian and wasn't saved until I was nearly 30. So I've already gone through a complete change in what I believe.

      "Do you ever look at the basics of what you believe and why? Put down the bible and look at yourself?"

      What would putting down the Bible and looking at myself accomplish? I believe the Bible is the Word of God. It is true and doesn't matter what I think about it. But as far as looking at the basics ... yes. I consider that stuff every day. But like I said, they keep getting backed up and it's wonderful!

      "Do you ever read something that challenges what you believe, and consider it, hold it up to what you believe? Weigh the balance?"

      You mean like outside sources? Occasionally. Some of you might think that it's close-minded. I just think if it disagrees with God, it can't be a good thing. I can come across things that challenge me in the Bible. For instance, I believe that everything in the Bible is true. But I admit it's hard to reconcile talking animals (so I take that on faith) or it's hard to understand some of the theology, but that's why study is good.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:54 am |
      • myweightinwords

        You may not have heard my story before. I didn’t grow up a Christian and wasn’t saved until I was nearly 30. So I’ve already gone through a complete change in what I believe.

        And again I find myself with more questions. (I can be a nosy one). If I may ask, what caused this change? (by all means feel free to tell me to bugger off if I'm being too nosy, or feel free to return the favor and ask me things).

        What would putting down the Bible and looking at myself accomplish?

        Last I checked, you aren't the bible. Don't you think it's wise to check in with yourself from time to time? To ask yourself questions? To feel?

        I believe the Bible is the Word of God. It is true and doesn’t matter what I think about it.

        Why do you believe that? What convinced you? Why would you think that what you think doesn't matter?

        Some of you might think that it’s close-minded. I just think if it disagrees with God, it can’t be a good thing.

        Even if it strengthens your faith in your God?

        I have found that some of the things that have most affirmed my faith in recent years has been studying things which challenge my faith and understanding.

        January 28, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • ???????

      Who believes in a talking snake?

      January 28, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Topher

      ???????

      "Who believes in a talking snake?"

      I do. And don't forget about the donkey. 🙂

      January 28, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Billy

      Topher said the ark didn't have to go very far. So the giant turtles got dropped off at Gibraltar and had to swim all the way back to the Galapagos?? I'm still not buying that.

      January 28, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Damocles

      @topher

      'If it disagrees with my deity, it can't be good'. Wow.

      Paraphrase: 'I study the bible to learn that the bible is true'. Wowx2

      Paraphrase #2: 'I don't really believe in talking animals but, hey, it must be true because it's in the bible. The wow trifecta.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      "And again I find myself with more questions. (I can be a nosy one). If I may ask, what caused this change?

      I was a raging atheist in my teens. I hated God and everything to do with Christianity. But my conscience was fighting against me. It reveals there's a God even though I didn't want to hear it. My mom, who did not grow up in the church either, went to a funeral and asked the preacher how does one get into Heaven. He said, all you have to do is believe (bad theology ... even the demons believe in Christ ... and they tremble at the knowledge.) So I thought, OK, I'll "believe" and if there is a God, I'll be good to go. So for the next decade, I would have told you I was a Christian, but it wasn't true. If I had been killed in a car accident, I'd be in Hell today. Scary thought. But it wasn't until someone actually explained the Gospel to me did I know the truth and was forced to look into the claims of Christianity and discovered it was all true.

      "Last I checked, you aren't the bible. Don't you think it's wise to check in with yourself from time to time? To ask yourself questions? To feel?"

      I'm honestly not sure what you are asking. I do check in with myself. The Bible says to do that every once in a while and make sure you're in the faith. And ask myself questions? Sure. I love to figure out not just THAT it's true (cause the Bible says so) but WHY I should believe it (outside sources.)

      "Why do you believe that? What convinced you? Why would you think that what you think doesn't matter?"

      I believe the Bible because it's a reliable collection of historical doc.uments, written by eyewitnesses during the lives of other eyewitnesses who claimed supernatural events. We can get REALLY deep into this if you want.

      Well, why would my opinion matter more than God's Word? If, for instance, I don't like a certain passage, that doesn't make a bit of difference. If God says something is bad or that something happened in a certain way, who am I to oppose Him?

      January 28, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        I was a raging atheist in my teens.

        What does this mean to you?

        I hated God and everything to do with Christianity.

        Then you weren't an atheist. An atheist isn't angry with god, an atheist simply doesn't believe that there is a god. Of course, many atheists do seem to be angry at Christians, but that is a different statement all together.

        But my conscience was fighting against me. It reveals there’s a God even though I didn’t want to hear it.

        In what way? Isn't our conscience just the internalized mores of the society in which we live? This would be why your conscience might tell you something is wrong, but mine does not.

        So I thought, OK, I’ll “believe” and if there is a God, I’ll be good to go.

        Honestly? You can change what you believe just by deciding to do so? I can not. My belief changes, yes, but not by choice. It is a process, an evolution.

        But it wasn’t until someone actually explained the Gospel to me did I know the truth and was forced to look into the claims of Christianity and discovered it was all true.

        Can you describe this process? What claims did you look into and how did you do so? What did you discover and how did you discover it?

        (I hope I'm not being offensive here, I just want to get past the "package" answers that seem to be what Christians give when they're talking about their conversion....I want to go deeper).

        I’m honestly not sure what you are asking.

        More of the "deeper" I guess. I'm interested in knowing the how and why of what you believe. I get what you believe. Having studied all of the same material, I want to get the why.

        So I'm looking for the change that happened before you picked up a bible, for the belief that keeps you there, for the challenges that cause doubt, and the ones that bring you closer...if that makes any sense.

        I do check in with myself. The Bible says to do that every once in a while and make sure you’re in the faith. And ask myself questions? Sure. I love to figure out not just THAT it’s true (cause the Bible says so) but WHY I should believe it (outside sources.)

        This is part of my disconnect. I've studied the same scripture and found it lacking. I found it unbelievable when looked at with a critical eye. I held it up to what I believed and found it failed the test.

        So my interest is in how you and I, faced with the same information could see such divergent truths.

        January 28, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • Which God?

      @POTUK. No time? You must be a pretty shallow person, probably narcisstic as well.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • Dark Helmet

      So, Topher, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Science

      @topher
      I sure am glad as hell the talking snake can not be taught in science class. Hee-Haw.

      Peace

      January 28, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "I believe the Bible because it's a reliable collection of historical doc.uments"

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • POTUK

      @Which God
      Clearly there was sarcasm in the no time question. A narcissISt telling someone else they are narcissIStic? okay? Love your attempt at evading my question tho. Surprised? not at all.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      "What does this mean to you?"

      It means I thought Christianity was ridiculous and sought out Christians to tell them how ignorant they were. I also thought I didn't believe in God, but that wasn't true. My conscience told me otherwise.

      "In what way? Isn't our conscience just the internalized mores of the society in which we live? This would be why your conscience might tell you something is wrong, but mine does not."

      No. The conscience is universal, not just what society says. For instance, we ALL know it's wrong to lie and steal and murder. You don't have to be taught that.

      "Honestly? You can change what you believe just by deciding to do so? I can not. My belief changes, yes, but not by choice. It is a process, an evolution."

      Well, I didn't really change my mind. I just told myself I did. It was a lie. Never once in that time as a "Christian" did I open the Bible. Never did I even wonder what it said. I didn't care. I thought I had a "get out of jail free" card and thought that was good enough. It wasn't.

      "Can you describe this process? What claims did you look into and how did you do so? What did you discover and how did you discover it?"

      Do you need me to explain the Gospel to answer this? I don't mean to sound snarky, it's just that MOST on these message boards don't know it. And I'll be happy to tell you if you don't know. That being said, it probably took me around a year after hearing it to process it, think about it ... look into it before I came to realize it was all true.

      "(I hope I'm not being offensive here, I just want to get past the "package" answers that seem to be what Christians give when they're talking about their conversion....I want to go deeper)."

      Fine with me.

      "More of the "deeper" I guess. I'm interested in knowing the how and why of what you believe. I get what you believe. Having studied all of the same material, I want to get the why."

      Well, even though I wanted to deny there was a god or even any evidence of one, there was. My conscience revealed it and creation revealed it. Now that doesn't mean it was the God of the Bible, but deep down I knew there had to be something more. So that's where we get into things like I knew I had sinned against whatever God was out there and that the Bible is the only one that answers all the big questions but is also the ONLY one with an answer to the sin problem.

      "So I'm looking for the change that happened before you picked up a bible, for the belief that keeps you there, for the challenges that cause doubt, and the ones that bring you closer...if that makes any sense."

      Well, again, I KNEW there was a God. And I KNEW I'd sinned. But I didn't know what that meant until I heard the Gospel. I'm kept there because I look into it. I just don't take it on blind faith. Doubts ... I wouldn't say I have any. Sometimes I get a little streamer thought that says "are you sure you're saved?" but it only lasts a moment and I know me, know who I was and what I am now and the promises of Christ.

      "This is part of my disconnect. I've studied the same scripture and found it lacking. I found it unbelievable when looked at with a critical eye. I held it up to what I believed and found it failed the test."

      Well ... WHAT did you find lacking? I don't want to just throw you in with the atheists on these boards, but they come on here with claims all the time and for the most part there's answers for those things. Like the other day there was a complaint because the Bible lists bats as a bird. But anyone who has done much studying knows the word in the original language is "owph" and means "winged creature" not bird. So I'd be happy to discuss with you ANYTHING that you have a problem with. I won't pretend to have an answer for everything, but I'll give you the best I've got.

      January 28, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        It means I thought Christianity was ridiculous and sought out Christians to tell them how ignorant they were. I also thought I didn’t believe in God, but that wasn’t true. My conscience told me otherwise.

        Can you look back at that time and understand why you thought Christianity was ridiculous? Can you define what it is that made you act so angrily toward those who followed a religion you didn’t believe in?

        No. The conscience is universal, not just what society says. For instance, we ALL know it’s wrong to lie and steal and murder. You don’t have to be taught that.

        Yet, there are many things that Christians claim are “wrong” and “evil” and “immoral” that do not “prick” my conscience. And there are things that Christians seem to be okay with that DO offend my conscience.

        Well, I didn’t really change my mind. I just told myself I did. It was a lie.

        The only thing that changed was your willingness to admit your belief. But, what did you actually believe? Why did you believe it?

        Never once in that time as a “Christian” did I open the Bible. Never did I even wonder what it said. I didn’t care. I thought I had a “get out of jail free” card and thought that was good enough. It wasn’t.

        Again I come back to why the bible? Why did believing there was a god mean that god was the biblical one? Did you look anywhere else? Or was it the only place you culturally considered relevant?

        Do you need me to explain the Gospel to answer this?

        If you do, you are misunderstanding what I’m asking about. I know the words. I know the stories. I’m not talking about that.

        I don’t mean to sound snarky, it’s just that MOST on these message boards don’t know it. And I’ll be happy to tell you if you don’t know.

        Having been a Christian for many years and studied for the ministry, I dare say I know the story. Thanks.

        That being said, it probably took me around a year after hearing it to process it, think about it … look into it before I came to realize it was all true.

        You keep saying “look into it”…and it’s this that I’m poking at. HOW did you look into it? What does that mean to you?

        Well, even though I wanted to deny there was a god or even any evidence of one, there was.

        What evidence was proof to you? I realize it’s a personal thing, just as it is for all of us. I’m just curious.

        My conscience revealed it and creation revealed it. Now that doesn’t mean it was the God of the Bible, but deep down I knew there had to be something more.

        This part is familiar to me. I know that feeling that there is something more.

        So that’s where we get into things like I knew I had sinned against whatever God was out there and that the Bible is the only one that answers all the big questions but is also the ONLY one with an answer to the sin problem.

        How do you define sin? How did you know you had sinned?

        Well … WHAT did you find lacking?

        One of the big ones was sin. I didn’t (and don’t) buy it. There are many others, but I think that one right there was the deal breaker for me.

        I don’t want to just throw you in with the atheists on these boards, but they come on here with claims all the time and for the most part there’s answers for those things.

        I’m not an atheist, first and foremost. My big reasons for leaving Christianity have to do with me and what I believe. And I don’t believe the bible is anything more than the writings of faith of a people and time that are very, very distant to us and have little or no bearing on life today.

        January 28, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • Robert

      Topher, you sound like you are trying to preach on this blog instead of being your authentic self. That's what sad.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @myweight

      I might be a little late to the party, but to answer your initial question, do I ever rethink what I believe.

      The answer is tough because I like to think I do, however it's become harder and harder to with objectivity (insofar as you can be objective with your own personal thoughts). I would like to believe that occasionally I really think about where I am in life and if that had external help from an outside, unknowable force or if there was no presdestination and I truely am in complete control (or at least in control as possible).

      On the subject of any religion, I simply can not make myself believe in any of the stories again. I really and truely would love to believe that the supernatural exists in our world. That natural laws can be broken and that miracles could happen, like someone walking on water, or tapping a stone and making water. One of my most profound wishes is to do or at least see something that is literally impossible, and I still hold out that one day it might happen. I can't however believe it's already happened simply because an ancient book (any ancient book) tells me so.

      However, when I think about a higher power, whether that be a sentient being that created the universe, or is somehow present and invisable is a different story. Who's to say that this being isn't the one that makes natural laws constant. What I mean to say is, we've assigned the word "nature" to the things that happen outside of our control, whether it's on earth or in space, but who's to say that nature isn't actually governed by a higher intelligence? I don't think it is, but I can't exactly count out the possibility.

      Sometimes what I like to do is come to this blog and pose as a believer, step into their shoes as it were and attempt to defend faith rather than poke holes in it. The interesting thing is how many people jump all over me when i don't profess being an atheist off the bat. I try and defend what I know the best , Judaism, but unfortunately it either devolves into anti-israel rhetoric (trolls), anti religion without any follow-up (trolling atheists) or attempted proselytization (christian trolls). I don't ever see myself becoming religious again, it was too much and it made me feel too isolated.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        Chuckles, thank you for sharing.

        I honestly think that most people do not actually know why they believe what they believe or how they came to believe it.

        In stories of faith particularly, I find that people tend to use phrasing that they never fully explain (see my comment to Topher about the phrase "look into it").

        It can be a scary thing, honestly, to look at those things.

        January 28, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • Pete

      Topher decided to believe in the bible and will do everything in their power to conform it to their belief, regardless if others continue to show that what was written is really isn't the truth, he will dismiss it because it doesn't conform to their version of god.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • meifumado

      I agree with Akira, though as a child i was always a skeptic, I was superst.itious a bit, as I have aged that skepticism grew and I am constantly asking questions about everything.

      One should never stop learning.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Lawrence

      The Bible, is fiction, because, overall, its authors meant it as presentation, not as science, or even as history, which is a form of science with its own scientific rules of evidence. Sometimes they accepted the truth of the stories they used, but sometimes, they did not — Job and Esther describe personalities who never lived, and the authors knew it. Some of it reports historical fact, of course: there was a King David, as there was a Babylonian invasion. There was also a prophet named Isaiah, but his prophecies were included in the Bible to give us lessons of morality not of history. The same is true of Genesis through Deuteronomy, Kings, Judges and all the other books, some of whose characters really lived and some of whom didn’t. It doesn’t matter. Fiction can be chock-full of characters who really lived, with a story line of things they really did – and still be fiction.

      “Fiction,” says Eagleton, “is a question of how texts behave and of how we treat them.” The question is what we are invited to do with the biblical text.

      Until relatively recently (the invention of printing) The Bible was read and studied, usually out loud, for the moral lessons within it. But then came printing, along with reading as a personal pastime and fiction as what people liked best to read. Fiction was falsely viewed as private entertainment about nothing substantive, hardly the moral equivalent of history, philosophy and science, which were public truths.

      The Bible now seemed fictitious because it wasn’t “true” in the way that history, philosophy and science are. Supporters of the Bible bristled at this claim because fiction was considered paltry, hardly what you would stake your life on. The Bible is history, these defenders insisted, fact not fiction.

      But that judgment misses the point. Even if every bit of the Bible were literally true, it would still be fiction because of the reason it was compiled, the reason we insist on reading it, and its presentational nature as a world unto itself with its own unique lessons to impart. If you want to know such things as the point of existence, the meaning of life, and the ways humankind has gone right and wrong, you cannot do a whole lot better than start with fiction: the fiction that is the Bible.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Science

      Education and DNA works well
      MMIW when you go out with camera make sure IF you see a talking snake to get a picture.

      Ancient DNA reveals humans living 40,000 years ago in Beijing area related to present-day Asians, Native Americans January 21, 2013

      Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-ancient-dna-reveals-humans-years.html#jCp

      Peace

      January 28, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      "Can you look back at that time and understand why you thought Christianity was ridiculous? Can you define what it is that made you act so angrily toward those who followed a religion you didn’t believe in?"

      Yeah, I basically worshipped at the altar of science and thought that science stood in opposition to Christianity. That's not true and I know that now. So I also thought I was smarter than everyone else and wasn't afraid to tell them and knock them down a few pegs.

      "Again I come back to why the bible? Why did believing there was a god mean that god was the biblical one? Did you look anywhere else? Or was it the only place you culturally considered relevant?"

      In college I had done some investigation into many other religions and found they weren't true. The Gospel then was presented to me and it just makes sense. It satisfies my conscience. But that's before I started looking into its claims. Believe me ... I didn't want Christianity to be true. I hated Christianity and all its hypocritical followers.

      "You keep saying “look into it”…and it’s this that I’m poking at. HOW did you look into it? What does that mean to you?"

      Well, I read the Bible, first of all. I had never done that despite calling myself a Christian for many years. And it makes some BIG claims. I had to figure out whether those claims were true. And why I should believe them. Some of that involved talking to pastors and some meant reading books on it. I found a tv show and a radio show that taught on that sort of stuff. Not just preaching at you, but explaining WHY these things are true.

      "What evidence was proof to you? I realize it’s a personal thing, just as it is for all of us. I’m just curious."

      Depends on whether you mean the Bible or Christianity. Just a few for either ... my conscience. Creation proved there must be a Creator. Then the Bible was so historically accurate that not one thing has been proven false. So a great deal of it is trustworthy right off the bat. Then you get into who wrote the 66 books. They were eyewitnesses. They saw what they wrote about. And they wrote it soon enough afterward that it was during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. That means there was an automatic bull-detector. That means if the authors lied or just stretched the truth, the other eyewitnesses would have called them on it. So you've got a pretty good starting base as to how believeable the Bible is. Now you can take on the claims of supernatural activity. We can go on and on about the evidences in support for the Bible. It's true and you can trust it.

      "How do you define sin? How did you know you had sinned? "

      Sin just means trangressing God's laws. Because I wasn't perfect. I'd lied, stolen, blasphemed ... in fact, now that I know what God's laws are, I know I've broken every one of God's commandments. How about you? Have you lied, stolen, used God's name in a low way? Looked at someone with lust?

      "One of the big ones was sin. I didn’t (and don’t) buy it. There are many others, but I think that one right there was the deal breaker for me."

      Can you explain more? What don't you buy? You don't believe you have broken God's laws?

      January 28, 2013 at 3:17 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        Yeah, I basically worshipped at the altar of science and thought that science stood in opposition to Christianity. That’s not true and I know that now. So I also thought I was smarter than everyone else and wasn’t afraid to tell them and knock them down a few pegs.

        I don’t mean this to sound how it’s probably going to. I apologize if it offends. However, this sounds pretty flat to me, superficial if you will. At least the first part. The second sounds like standard teenager.

        In college I had done some investigation into many other religions and found they weren’t true.

        Which ones? Why weren’t they true?

        The Gospel then was presented to me and it just makes sense.

        Which part? I ask because it makes no sense to me. I’m curious why it makes sense to you.

        It satisfies my conscience. But that’s before I started looking into its claims. Believe me … I didn’t want Christianity to be true. I hated Christianity and all its hypocritical followers.

        So up until that point you didn’t like it because of what people did, not what they believed? There are a lot of bad examples of Christianity, that is true.

        Depends on whether you mean the Bible or Christianity. Just a few for either … my conscience. Creation proved there must be a Creator.

        I’ve seen others make this claim. I don’t necessarily agree or disagree (the origins of the universe do not actually play a very big role in what I believe).

        Then the Bible was so historically accurate that not one thing has been proven false. So a great deal of it is trustworthy right off the bat.

        Is that what you have found? Interesting, because my study showed me something very different.

        Then you get into who wrote the 66 books. They were eyewitnesses.

        Actually, not so much. In my study I found that much of the bible is thought by scholars to not be written by eyewitnesses at all, and in fact large portions of it appear to have been lifted from previous stories told in other cultures in the same area.

        They saw what they wrote about. And they wrote it soon enough afterward that it was during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses.

        Not so much. I doubt Moses was around for the creation or Noah’s ark, etc.

        That means there was an automatic bull-detector. That means if the authors lied or just stretched the truth, the other eyewitnesses would have called them on it.

        How would they have known? They were stretched out around the area with no internet, no television. Communication was slow and cumbersome. More than likely the stories were told over and over again, traveling by word of mouth until someone somewhere wrote them done. As time wore on, the writings were collected and synchronized.

        So you’ve got a pretty good starting base as to how believeable the Bible is. Now you can take on the claims of supernatural activity. We can go on and on about the evidences in support for the Bible. It’s true and you can trust it.

        Interestingly, it was the supernatural claims that I held on to the longest as truth. Eventually however, I had to accept that I didn’t believe them because they were based on beliefs that I no longer shared.

        Sin just means trangressing God’s laws.

        And if those laws are defined by the bible, which I have already established is not to be trusted, where then am I supposed to learn these laws?

        Because I wasn’t perfect. I’d lied, stolen, blasphemed … in fact, now that I know what God’s laws are, I know I’ve broken every one of God’s commandments. How about you? Have you lied, stolen, used God’s name in a low way? Looked at someone with lust?

        My faith requires me to make reparations to anyone I have harmed. If it causes no harm, there is no sin.

        Can you explain more? What don’t you buy? You don’t believe you have broken God’s laws?

        Which god? If I do not believe your god is real (which isn’t exactly what I believe, but it’s simpler than getting into what I believe about deity), how can I believe that your god has any authority to make laws?

        A perfect god can not make an imperfect creation without meaning to. If he means to and then holds that imperfect creation responsible for its imperfections, he is no longer a perfect god.

        A perfect god does not give its people a set of laws and then contradict them himself.

        A perfect god does not condemn a soul to an eternity of torment for a finite act, let alone for a thought crime.

        January 28, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • Really?

      " Then the Bible was so historically accurate that not one thing has been proven false. "

      The fact that archaeological evidence confirms that Jehu was an actual historical character confirms only that he was an actual historical character. It does not confirm the historical accuracy of everything that the Bible attributed to him. Did a "son of the prophets" go to Ramoth-gilead and anoint Jehu king of Israel while the reigning king was home in Jezreel recovering from battle wounds (2 Kings 9:1-10)? Did Jehu then ride to Jezreel in a chariot and massacre the Israelite royal family and usurp the throne (2 Kings 9:16 ff)? We simply cannot determine this from an Assyrian inscription that claimed Jehu paid tribute to Shalmaneser, so in the absence of disinterested, nonbiblical records that attest to these events, it is hardly accurate to say that archaeology has proven the historicity of what the Bible recorded about Jehu. Likewise, extrabiblical references to Nebuchadnezzar may confirm his historical existence, but they do not corroborate the accuracy of such biblical claims as his dream that Daniel interpreted (Dan. 2) or his seven-year period of insanity (Dan. 4:4-37). To so argue is to read entirely too much into the archaeological records.

      The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha's inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record, gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha's inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites. The actual truth about the battle will probably never be known.

      A notable example would be the account of Joshua's conquest and destruction of the Canaanite city of Ai. According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, "utterly destroyed all the inhabitants," and made it a "heap forever" (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua. Joseph Callaway, a conservative Southern Baptist and professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, spent nine years excavating the ruins of ancient Ai and afterwards reported that what he found there contradicted the biblical record.

      The evidence from Ai was mainly negative. There was a great walled city there beginning about 3000 B. C., more than 1,800 years before Israel's emergence in Canaan. But this city was destroyed about 2400 B. C., after which the site was abandoned.

      Despite extensive excavation, no evidence of a Late Bronze Age (1500-1200 B. C.) Canaanite city was found. In short, there was no Canaanite city here for Joshua to conquer (Biblical Archaeology Review, "Joseph A. Callaway: 1920-1988," November/December 1988, p. 24, emphasis added).

      This same article quoted what Callaway had earlier said when announcing the results of his nine-year excavation of Ai.

      Archaeology has wiped out the historical credibility of the conquest of Ai as reported in Joshua 7-8. The Joint Expedition to Ai worked nine seasons between 1964 and 1976... only to eliminate the historical underpinning of the Ai account in the Bible (Ibid., p. 24).

      Archaeological silence is another problem that biblical inerrantists don't like to talk about. According to the Bible, the Israelite tribes were united into one nation that had a glorious history during the reigns of king David and his son Solomon, yet the archaeological record is completely silent about these two kings except for two disputed inscriptions that some think are references to "the house of David." This is strange indeed considering that references to Hebrew kings of much less biblical importance (Omri, Ahab, Jehu, Zedekiah, etc.) have been found in extrabiblical records. This archaeological silence doesn't prove that David and Solomon did not exist, but it certainly gives all but biblical inerrantists pause to wonder.

      Another case in point is the biblical record of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and their subsequent 40-year wandering in the Sinai wilderness. According to census figures in the book of Numbers, the Israelite population would have been between 2.5 to 3 million people, all of whom died in the wilderness for their disobedience, yet extensive archaeological work by Israeli archaeologist Eliezer Oren over a period of 10 years "failed to provide a single shred of evidence that the biblical account of the Exodus from Egypt ever happened"

      January 28, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Saraswati

      My beliefs, or as I think of them "perspectives", change and evolve all the time. I have some relatively flat periods where I don't question as much, but I'd say I have questioning "cycles" once or twice a year, with more moderate changes in between. I question and overturn ideas less frequently than when I was young, which is the norm according to the research I've seen, but I definitely still do it. Opinions and beliefs are more likely to change as you age than character traits, so I let myself flow with new ideas pretty freely.

      January 28, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Pete the other one

      2 Timothy 4:3-4

      3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

      4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Pete

      "4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

      That's because the people putting the bible together knew it was a lie and eventually others would figure it out. It's all part of the con idiot.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • The Troof

      > Pete the other one

      Are you the Pete that is counting other people's lies? While ignoring his own lies?

      January 28, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Rick

      Earthshaking fire from the center of the Earth

      Will cause tremors around the New City.

      Two great rocks will war for a long time,

      Then Arethusa will redden a new river.' ~Nostradamus about 9/11

      January 28, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Pete,

      And Paul of Tarsus had an itching tongue (or writing hand, as the case may be)...

      January 28, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
  17. Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

    It's windy and cold here! Some songs are timeless – such as some of the hits by the Classics IV. How do you improve upon one? Have it done right by Santana. From the 1978 album "Inner Secrets", it's "Stormy". Vocal courtesy of Greg Walker.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTGuTkbY7As

    January 28, 2013 at 10:44 am |
    • Akira

      Love me some Santana.

      January 28, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • meifumado

      Thanks again for the tunes!

      January 28, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
  18. John F Kennedy

    I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.

    January 28, 2013 at 9:29 am |
    • Science

      @ JFK
      Still working on that.

      yep another day Peace
      Facts work in court of law
      Evolution won in the Dover court trial. ID/creation can not be taught in public schools in US.. Moving forward, take a blood test map your genes.

      Creationists' tactics also have a more profound impact on science education which goes beyond biology because they communicate the idea that there is something lacking or something wrong with evolutionary theory, an idea which is not actually true from a scientific standpoint. This causes students to develop very mistaken beliefs about the nature of science, the scientific method, and how scientific research is used. This cheats students out of the proper science education which they deserve.

      Attempts to use the law to restrict or dilute the teaching of evolution in public schools matters because science matters. As society relies more and more heavily on science and technology on ever more fundamental levels, it becomes increasingly more important that all citizens receive a proper grounding in science and the scientific method. Science education is becoming a key part of what it means to be a well-informed and well-educated citizen of today; therefore, any effort to temper science education in order to placate a vocal religious group cheats the students, cheats society, and cheats our future.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:53 am |
  19. John Adams & the U.S. Senate

    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

    January 28, 2013 at 9:28 am |
  20. James Madison

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

    (4th POTUS, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights)

    January 28, 2013 at 9:28 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.