By Arielle Hawkins, CNN
Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.
From the Blog:
CNN: Author of Scientology book: ‘There have been a lot of tears in this story’
To Scientologists and their supporters, L. Ron Hubbard is a voice of wisdom and the church is the way to enlightenment. To antagonists and skeptics, Hubbard is a con artist and fraud, and the church is a mishmash of Freudian psychology and science fiction, a celebrity-laden scam. Lawrence Wright doesn’t buy either generalization. In his new book, “Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief,” the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of “The Looming Tower” delves into the life of Hubbard, the writer-turned-prophet, and the church he created – one which, he says, arose out of an atmosphere of spiritual ferment in post-World War II Los Angeles.
Belief on TV:
Tweet of the Day:
[tweet https://twitter.com/JoelOsteen/status/296791170082811904%5D
Photos of the Day:
Iranian Zoroastrians take part in a performance as they fight with the devil during the annual Zoroastrian Sadeh festival in the western suburb of Tehran on January 29, 2013. Sadeh, is an ancient Persian festival that is celebrated by setting a huge bonfire to honor fire and to defeat the forces of darkness, frost, and cold. Sadeh means 'hundred' and refers to one hundred days and nights past the end of summer.
Newly initiated 'Naga Sadhus' perform rituals on the bank of the Ganga River during the Maha Kumbh festival in Allahabad on January 30, 2013. During every Kumbh Mela, the diksha – ritual of initiation by a guru – program for new members takes place.
Enlightening Reads:
Huffington Post: France To Deport Radical Imams
France will deport a number of radical foreign imams in the coming days, though Paris did not identify which preachers would have to leave the country. France24 reports that French Interior Minister Manuel Valls announced the plan during an international conference on extremist movements held in Brussels on Tuesday. Valls described the decision as part of France's effort to fight "global Jihad."
Washington Post: Prince George’s Co. school lets Muslim students out of class to pray
The growing number of Muslim students seeking accommodations to practice their religion in public schools has stirred debate about the long-contentious issue of prayer in America’s public institutions. But a Prince George’s County high school principal believes she has found a way to accommodate Muslim students: She gives those with parental permission and high grades a pass out of class every day to pray.
Religion News Service: At halftime, a religious alternative to Beyonce
Whether to avoid the raunch, or simply to capture part of the Super Bowl’s supersized audience, some religion-oriented programmers are producing their own halftime shows.
The Guardian: From Ace Ventura to I AM: one man's search to end human suffering
For an evaluation of the world's woes and what to do about them, most people probably wouldn't turn to the director of Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. But since bringing Jim Carrey to the big screen, and grossing nearly $2bn with a subsequent string of blockbusters, Hollywood filmmaker Tom Shadyac has had quite a change of heart. So on Thrusday Shadyac was in a small theatre at the Empire, explaining without fanfare why he sold his Beverly Hills home, gave away most of his money and made Desmond Tutu, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn the stars of his latest documentary film, I AM.
Religion News Service: Modeling agency helps demure Muslims keep it ‘Underwraps’
Nailah Lymus argues that there’s greater demand for modesty than perhaps the fashion industry realizes, and that it will need models to respond. Since launching her Underwraps modeling agency, she’s received more than 400 queries from aspiring Muslim models from the U.S. to Indonesia to Great Britain.
Quote of the Day:
If one looks at texts in the Old Testament where God seems to be mean or violent, and people look at texts in the New Testament where Jesus is compassionate and caring for people and healing people, you can see kind of a dichotomy. I see God in both testaments doing the same things. Jesus bases his teaching, as does Paul, on the teachings of the Old Testament. And the things that Jesus does in the New Testament – healing people, forgiving people, caring for people – we see God in the Old Testament doing the same things.
–Evangelical theologian David Lamb, author of God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist?” in an interview with Religion News Service.
Join the conversation…
Baltimore Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis has regularly thanked God in the Ravens' somewhat improbable run to the Super Bowl.
CNN: Poll: Quarter of Americans say God influences sporting events
With millions of Americans set to watch the Super Bowl on Sunday, a new survey finds more than a quarter of Americans believe that God "plays a role in determining which team wins" at sports events. The survey by the Public Religion Research Institute also found that more than half of Americans believe “God rewards athletes who have faith with good health and success.”
@December : I never said that. I said I don't let anyone dictate what I believe.
I'm sorry if I've missed most of your posts, but would like to understand you better.
Upon what do you base your beliefs?
Do you consider Jesus to be the Son of God?
Do you accept the Bible as inerrant?
Do you accept other gods?
Upon what do you base your beliefs? God's grace. Jesus Christ. The love I've received from Christians and people of other faiths. And people of non-faiths.
Do you consider Jesus to be the Son of God? Yes.
Do you accept the Bible as inerrant? Which version and translation are you asking about?
Do you accept other gods? I try not to accept other gods. I used to make money my god. That failed me. I used to make scripture my god. Now I see it is what scripture points to. GOD. I invite God into my life each day and try to make him my priority.
What about you?
I'm either months ahead of you, or behind you.
December,
For Christ's sake learn to stand on your own intelligence and quit depending upon one of God's sons to pull you thru each day of your life.
@December :
Upon what do you base your beliefs? God's grace. Jesus Christ. The love I've received from Christians and people of other faiths. And people of non-faiths.
You misunderstood my question. My faith is IN Christ, but I base my faith upon the evidence that I've found (including in the Bible). I'm a conservative Christian Apologist.
Do you consider Jesus to be the Son of God? Yes.
ditto
Do you accept the Bible as inerrant? Which version and translation are you asking about?
Good point. I'm really talking about the Bible as handed down from God. I accept that we find many scribal errors in the Bible that doesn't change the meaning of the text, but these are non-issues.
Do you accept other gods? I try not to accept other gods.
Good answer. I would tend to answer it the same, even if my pride would like to claim that I don't accept any other gods. But we are all led astray occassionally.
Lionly, that's rich, coming from a person who uses random videos and a word-generator to express his...although this is the most succinct post I've seen in a while.
>> lionlylamb
>> For Christ's sake learn to stand on your own intelligence and quit depending....
Do you suggest I start sporadically posting 45 minute long YouTube videos that nobody watches?
Maybe it's best to just let the two different brands of scented tissue duke it out between them.
Hemp video is approximately 37 minutes into the video,,, Simply amazing what a little hemp can do for a world hungry for all the things marijuana can do for us!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIYrLa76Y_o&feature=player_embedded
SSSSSSSSSSTTTTTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
sam, when you mess with the bull, you get the horn mister.
Well fred, when I read about Zeus I learned that Athens is an actual city in Greece. This was all the proof I needed to know that Zeus is real.
Athens was placed there to test our faith!
Troy turned out to be a real place too. More evidence for the Greek gods and goddesses that a Christian can appreciate.
The musical selection I posted yesterday was an impressionistic piece. If we are set in the late 1950's in Brazil, and we borrow from American jazz, put a samba beat to it, and add a dash of impressionism or Brazilian folk music, we wind up with Bossa Nova ("new trend"). While Bossa songs are "catchy", they were often designed with a good dose of cleverness, especially with the music of Antonio Carlos Jobim.
Virginian jazz guitarist Charlie Byrd traveled to Brazil in 1961 as part of a State Department diplomatic tour. He returned and turned saxophonist Stan Getz onto the music of Bossa founders Jobim & Joao Gilberto. Within a year, Byrd and Getz released the album Jazz Samba. Two years later Getz teamed up with Gilberto and released one of the best-selling jazz albums of all time: Getz/Gilberto. At the 1965 Grammy's, the album won Best Album of the Year (winning over A Hard Day's Night), Best Jazz Instrumental Album, and Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical. From the album, the "Girl from Ipanema" also won for Best Record of the Year. Soon many of the artists that the Brazilian composers admired were performing their songs. Songbook albums dedicated entirely to Jobim by artists like Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are a testament to the popularity of the genre.
For today's first selection let's hear a few seconds of Frank Sinatra (followed by the original version of "Corcovado" from Getz/Gilberto). Vocals & guitar: Joao Gilberto; Tenor sax: Stan Getz; vocals: Astrud Gilberto; composition & piano: AC Jobim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhaAZ0jLVaI
Secondly, here's the same song from Charlie Byrd less than a year before his passing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPyY80pUujE
Corcovado, meaning "hunchback" in Portuguese, is the name of the mountain overlooking Rio de Janeiro. It is topped with the famous 125-ft. "Christ the Redeemer" statue.
But your God comes from your imagination, too? No? Or have you actually seen Him with your eyes? Have you touched Him? Has He spoken to you?
God of the Bible worked outside of Israel, too. The Book of Job – a story of an Edomite and The God. Why did the Hebrews include a story an outsider of God's chosen people?
Doesn't Jesus talk about the Kingdom of Heaven being within us?
That's for Chad.
He can preach, meddle and accuse others as being less Christian than him. But can't answer simple questions.
This is marvelous, seriously just bril.liant stuff here.
I think you lost one of your weapons in your ar.sen.al though December, since Chad is a christian I guess you can't say "You're not a christian, I don't believe you" anymore.
Wo.mp wo.mp
All religions have people who think they have spoken to their god, or that he has shown himself to them. Either through dreams, visions, unexpected money just showing up, etc.
it is all just people seeing what they want to see and believing what makes them feel better.
>> "You're not a christian, I don't believe you"
I never said that. I said I don't let anyone dictate what I believe.
And you kept wanting to talk about Jesus Christ, but I don't think you know him.
Your whole point has been trying to say that I believe 'hindus, jews, muslims and atheists are going to hell for etenity.'
I don't agree with that.
And I am still a Christian. Despite what Chad decides. And Chad is not God. He is a sinner just like me.
Chad may be a sinner like you, but i promise you he is not a sinner like me!
When sinning becomes an olympic event, i will dominate that podium!
@December
Of course you think I don't know jesus, because if I did then I would agree with you but since I have a different opinion I must be the one in the wrong. You see the problem there right?
"Your whole point has been trying to say that I believe 'hindus, jews, muslims and atheists are going to hell for etenity.' I don't agree with that."
–I've already pointed out that just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it any less true. If you don't agree with that, take it up with Chad and all the other christians out there, not me.
"And I am still a Christian. Despite what Chad decides. And Chad is not God. He is a sinner just like me."
–Never said you weren't a real christian, if you want to take that ti.tle with everything attached to it, go for it.
@December
===quote===
Your whole point has been trying to say that I believe 'hindus, jews, muslims and atheists are going to hell for etenity.'
I don't agree with that.
And I am still a Christian. Despite what Chad decides. And Chad is not God. He is a sinner just like me.
===end quote===
You're a new age christian aren't you? Probably subscribing to that brand new tailored made "My god is love .." religion.
It has all the new appealing features that gets you hooked because you're so gullible.
Here are the things you may want to look into from your own two or three sentences that I've quoted:
1) you're a sinner – that is stated, so there will be someone who is going to hell. You believe in 'sin' – that is simple.
2) so from example 1, if someone is going to hell – it isn't you. You're safe. It's a nice thought for yourself.
3) so from #2... the only question is "who is going to go to hell?"
-If the third fact leads up to 'NO ONE' is going to hell – then your religion is a phony. And you wouldn't have a basis to try to convert people.
So who is going to hell ? Express your opinion of who goes to hell.
>> I've already pointed out that just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it any less true. If you don't agree with that, take it up with Chad and all the other christians out there, not me.
I belong to a group of Christians that don't do what Chad does.
We do what Jesus asks us to do.
Love, not judge.
>> Never said you weren't a real christian, if you want to take that ti.tle with everything attached to it, go for it.
Fine, I'll take that t.tle and everything you want to attach to it. I can live with that.
.
>> You're a new age christian aren't you? Probably subscribing to that brand new tailored made "My god is love .." religion.
No. No.
>> So who is going to hell ? Express your opinion of who goes to hell.
Jesus asks me to love, not express who I think will go to hell.
Ask Chad or Chuckles if you want to know. They love to talk about others going to hell.
I see the Poe is still at it again today.
==quote==
"Jesus asks me to love, not express who I think will go to hell."
==end==
Exactly what one gets from a new age christian. So funny.
"Oh I don't judge – really I don't. Your abortion is sinful to god but I'm not judging you." LOL
"Jesus asks me to love, not express who I think will go to hell." me
"Oh I don't judge – really I don't. Your abortion is sinful to god but I'm not judging you." You jumping to a conclusion.
@December
What conclusion is that?
The new age religion that has more outlandish flavors than it's predecessor.. this new religion is far more insidious than the old. The name of the game in this new tact is to employ deflection.
You're learning well.
>>Answer
Awwwww, ok. You got me. Dang, you are good.
Spot on. No doubts about it.
Amazing.
@December
Here go to the various bibles that are available on the net..
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
Choose the English area and take your poison. I bet you new age religie all subscribe to just loving parts of any of the bibles there. So funny that you pluck out the parts that have the emotional appealing parts that touch you.
The new age religion – the brand that will really spell the doom of organized religion. I'm really loving it.
No longer can they say they 'hate' anything because they leave the phrase "God is love" as the final authority.
@December
This new religion is really a blessing for us atheists. Thank you.
You've strip yourself of your expression of hate. With it too goes your previous generations of ingrained divisiveness and they're telling you to "internalize" them all. You're a walking time bomb with no avenue to say "you will go to hell".
Answer
Thanks.
Yea, we cut out and burned all of the Psalms that express the writer's doubts with God.
We never discuss them. Or sing them anymore.
You are so right. Wow.
Good job.
We deleted out the beaten and murder of Jesus Christ.
He just lived, performed miracles and then ascended into heaven. Everybody waved goodbye to him at the end. Even ol' King Herod.
Kind of like when Dorothy leaves Oz in the movie the Wizard of Oz.
I'm so glad I found someone that understands me.
@December
More deflection. I love it.
Care to cut and paste any of the passages in the bible that agree with your view on abortion? LOL
December
Who do you think Mohammad is? What is your understanding of Buddha/Krishna?
>> Care to cut and paste any of the passages in the bible that agree with your view on abortion? LOL
Yes. I will. But first, please post where I shared my views on abortion with you. Or anyone.
Can you please do that?
> Who do you think Mohammad is? What is your understanding of Buddha/Krishna?
I'll let "Answer" or "Chuckles" answer for me. They seem to know better than I.
@December
The topic of abortion is a topic I brought up.
The fact of the matter with your new age religies is for fact that your intent to not take a position. With your all encompassing preaching of love you don't want to ruin this image.
So I asked you to take a view. You'll state your "I won't judge" line – of course. So let's play.
==quote==
I'll let "Answer" or "Chuckles" answer for me. They seem to know better than I.
==end==
Another fine deflection. Let the people who want to know "why you believe" that the opinion comes from others putting words into your mouth. Without even uttering your own god bible based view.
Classic deflection.
Why are you putting quotes to me about abortion? Without knowing my views?
And why are you putting false quotes about judging to me?
And where did I say "I won't judge"?
I do judge. All people do.
I said Jesus ASKS me to love, not judge. As in, don't judge who deserves love or not. Love them all.
Context. Very important.
@December
You're doing a fine job of being a spinning top. Congrats.
When people want to pin ya down .. dodge and dodge some more.
Answer = projection.
Projecting his understanding onto me.
Yes, I will deflect that.
==quote==
"I do judge."
==end==
Was this statement so hard for you to get out?
Well now who goes to hell ? Let's see what your opinion is. You personally won't answer it, but I know you subscribe to the bible. So your view corresponds to the view expressed in the bible. So let's get a yes..or a no.
This is just logic at work.
>> You're doing a fine job of being a spinning top. Congrats.
Thanks, "Answer".
You're doing a fine job of launching snark grenades and appearing to know me without very much information about me.
@December
It's not projection. It's trickery. I excel in it. XD
>> Answer
What is your view on abortion?
You have already decided what mine is.
But do you have one? Will you explain yours? Or just mine?
Well you can try to project your answer onto me. Try it dearie.
I'll flow with your viewpoint to match yours. The focus will always be back to you.
>> This is just logic at work.
Faulty logic is still logic, I guess.
I never, never said I don't judge. Ever.
>> Well now who goes to hell ?
God creates a place and judges where in that place we go.
I don't. I'm not God.
>> subscribe to the bible.
I subscribe to Time magazine. You want to make some assumption about that, too?
==quote==
"God creates a place and judges where in that place we go. "
==end==
Oh we've went full circle. Lovely.
You still deflecting the main theme. Your god is love. Isn't that so?
So explain this need for a hell.
>> Your god is love. Isn't that so?
I have not said that. You did. I will say God loves you.
>>So explain this need for a hell.
Chad? Chuckles? You guys are the hell experts. Can you explain this to Answer?
==quote==
"I have not said that. You did. I will say God loves you."
==end==
So using logic on that sentence. God isn't all love. God is hate also.
Nice to see you admit it.
"I will say God loves you."
==Another bit of your own confession is that you're admitting your know god's feelings. Fascinating.
You are so right. Thanks for pointing out my flaws and defects.
I answered your questions, you didn't answer mine. I'm tired of talking to little CNN Beliefe Board dictators.
Have a great rest of the day.
==quote==
"Thanks for pointing out my flaws and defects."
==end==
You needed me someone to point them out? So funny.
Troll if you can tomorrow or another day. You're calling out to the void that there are dictators on CNN. That's a projection of being frustrated at your own inability to put forth an adequate defense of your belief system.
ANTI-GRAVITY OR LEVITATION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nTewAjhGsY&feature=player_embedded
George really says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVLJKR6g7U
George says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
George says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVLJKR6g7U
"People have the right to their opinion, and you have the right to ignore it."
If people are outspoken about their opinions, waste my time talking to me uninvited about them, use their opinions to try to influence laws and the education system in order to give their opinions the ability to influence all our lives, then I need rights a little more extensive than the right to ignore it.
The right to your own opinion? Sure, but not the right to your own facts. If the facts don't support your opinion then you're wrong.. When you're wrong it's perfectly acceptable to question or challenge your position. To ignore it is to allow you to continue being mistaken and using false information in your decision making. You don't exist in a vacuum and your actions have consequences.
@AtheistSteve
I see, you're just a caring citizen who feels it is your duty to help other people's decision making so they don't make wrong (according to you) decisions. Thank you! Can tell you're trying to make a difference. (one blog post at a time)
@ttoo
What additional rights do you need beyond the right to ignore it. The right to vote? check! Freedom to cry about it? check! Freedom to run for office (granted you meet certain specifications)? check!
not saying you shoud just accept laws that you don't feel are fair. I'm saying crying on blog doesn't change anything and you know that. So tho you want more extensive rights than the right to ignore, you really just want somewhere to pout when you don't get your way. It'll be okay! Want me to kiss it?
@weinerinameatgrinder – oh look, someone's bored, and not quite smart enough to get their thoughts together in one post. How charming.
@sam
You're right very bored. at work and hit post when supervisor walked in. then finished. copy and paste would've been better, but didn't have the time.
S
O
R
R.
Y
Good morning, everyone. I'm a lonely, deluded loser.
Good morning, everyone! What shall we talk about today?
I've got my sweater and loafers on. Let's talk about sodomy today.
Sure ... so ... you're for it?
All true catholics are for it, so long as it is pedoopihia and not a sinful man on man relationship.
Since no one has anything to talk about so far ... check out this article ... http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/01/25/feedback-dare-you-publish
... called "I Dare You to Publish This"
I'm excited for the Dawkins debate tonight, Cant wait for video to be released!
Cool! Who is he debating and where can I watch it?
Good Morning Topher;
Something for you to mull over. How can a christian claim to be humble and still try and spread the gospel which claims that god loves christians above all other religoins and is inherintly arrogant in that sense.
I'm not saying that all christians are arrogant in other aspects of their lives, but when it comes to spreading the gospel itself how can you humbly say something that is so arrogrant?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-21220007
Richard Dawkins and Rowan Williams booked for Cambridge debate.
You know it's gonna be good with these two guys!
Its Today but I don't think there's a live feed =(
Chuckles
"How can a christian claim to be humble and still try and spread the gospel which claims that god loves christians above all other religoins and is inherintly arrogant in that sense."
Well, first, I'd say that God's offer is to everyone, not just Christians. Atheists, Muslims and Buddhists can be forgiven, too, if they repent and trust in the Savior. God loves everyone. Second, I'm not sure it's arrogant to tell the truth. True is true. Now, you probably could tell the truth in an arrogant way ... kind of a "na-na-na-boo-boo. We have the truth and you don't." att.itude ... but if you're just telling people what God says then I don't think it's arrogant.
meifumado
I love debates. I like them a little more when I have a dog in the fight, but I bet it will be interesting none-the-less.
@Topher
Well, you're right that telling the truth when it's fact is not arrogant, but telling the "truth" or what you personally believe to be truth is a different thing entirely. You're not going around telling me people equations here and teaching people how to do calculus, you're trying to fundementally change someones beliefs because you are armed with as much proof that your "truth" is more truthy than the other guys.
And god loving everyone hinging on them accepting him and jesus would imply he loves them a little less before that no?
Chuckles
"And god loving everyone hinging on them accepting him and jesus would imply he loves them a little less before that no?"
No. God loves you even if you hate Him or if you don't believe He's real. Let's face it ... when God leaves His throne to be tortured and killed in your place so you can go to Heaven, that's pretty loving. And He did that for YOU. So it doesn't hinge on your "accepting" Him. But that doesn't mean He isn't angry at you. If you have not repented and trusted in Him, you are what is called a "child of wrath." That means He'll give you what you deserve when you die for breaking His laws. But it doesn't have to be that way. He's offering you forgiveness right now.
@Topher
Wait a sec, are you saying I can get into heaven without accepting jesus? Talk to @December, he'll agree with you, but you won't find many others, partially cus that whole John quote thing that says that's not the case....
Chuckles
"Wait a sec, are you saying I can get into heaven without accepting jesus? Talk to @December, he'll agree with you, but you won't find many others, partially cus that whole John quote thing that says that's not the case...."
NO! I'm not saying that at all. And if I even phrased something to make it sound that way, I apologize.
Here's how it works. You and I have sinned against God. (We all have.) So when God judges us, we'll be found guilty of breaking His laws. We deserve Hell. But God paid your fine on the cross and if you repent (not just say you are sorry, but also turn from your sins) and trust in the Savior, you will be forgiven (seen as righteous). Lawbreakers will be sent to Hell. The righteous to Heaven. That's why it's called the Good News. You can be forgiven.
Also, this might seem like semantics to you, but God doesn't need your acceptance. You need His. So I'd prefer the term "receive" ...
Topher, That link is to some really delusional stuff and is very silly, It is an insult to my intelligence.
Topher wrote, "God loves you even if you hate Him or if you don't believe He's real. Let's face it ... when God leaves His throne to be tortured and killed in your place so you can go to Heaven"
Your god loves us so much that he created billions of us knowing in advance that was going to torture us for all eternity. Yoir god kills his kid and sends him to hell for about 30 hours, and all is well and good. Yet he plans on torturing the rest of us for trillons of years.
And yet you and these other fundiot nutters keep saying what a swell guy he is.
meifumado
Sorry you feel that way.
@Topher
I enjoy a good debate as well, Especially when I have Dawkins to root for!
Dawkins is gonna rip this guy apart.
@Topher
again, you've confused me, "if you repent (not just say you are sorry, but also turn from your sins) and trust in the Savior, you will be forgiven (seen as righteous). Lawbreakers will be sent to Hell. The righteous to Heaven."
–I have to accept jesus before death to get to heaven, correct? If that's true then you are making the caes that your religion is right and the only way to receive gods grace is by believing you over my rabbi, or imam, etc... So do you not find that arrogant that you believe you are so right and non-christians so wrong that it's your job to correct them even though you and a muslim both equally share as much proof that your respective religions are correct?
How can that not be arrogance?
He might. I'm not a fan of Williams.
Chuckles
"–I have to accept jesus before death to get to heaven, correct?"
You must repent and trust the Savior before you die, yes.
"If that's true then you are making the caes that your religion is right and the only way to receive gods grace is by believing you over my rabbi, or imam, etc..."
No, don't believe me. Believe God over your rabbi or whomever. Always believe God over any man. But yes, Jesus was exclusive ... he said "No man comes to the Father but by me."
"So do you not find that arrogant that you believe you are so right and non-christians so wrong that it's your job to correct them even though you and a muslim both equally share as much proof that your respective religions are correct? "
Not if it's true. And I completely disagree that a Muslim has as much proof as I do as a Christian.
"How can that not be arrogance?"
I'm sorry if you feel I'm arrogant. I don't mean to come off that way. But the question we should be asking is "Is it true?" Even if I'm the most arrogant man in the world, that doesn't change whether God is real or not.
I did read it all,But it made my brain sad.
That answers in genesis link is one of the dumbest things I have read in my entire life.
Williams is a weird guy so it should be really fun.
@Topher
"No, don't believe me. Believe God"
- How can I believe god when he refuses to answer me but chooses to "speak" through you or a book? Considering god doesn't speak directly to people these days, that's easier said than done.
"And I completely disagree that a Muslim has as much proof as I do as a Christian."
–Why? What proof do you have that Muslims don't? You have a bible, they have the Koran, you have Jesus, they have Mohammed, ...
"I'm sorry if you feel I'm arrogant. I don't mean to come off that way. But the question we should be asking is "Is it true?" Even if I'm the most arrogant man in the world, that doesn't change whether God is real or not."
- This is what I'm saying, no matter how humble you want to be or think you are, but declaring you know god or that you know better than a jew, or muslim or a koko-bono tribesperson in Indonesia is arrogant, no matter how you slice it. If you had something more concrete to go off of like math, or if you were teaching fiction and discussing themes and allegories to people strictly to discuss academia, then teaching isn't arrogant, but once you cross the line into saying you know better just cause, it becomes arrogance.
Chuckles
" – How can I believe god when he refuses to answer me but chooses to "speak" through you or a book? Considering god doesn't speak directly to people these days, that's easier said than done. "
If you don't mind my asking, what question have you asked? Well, as far as speaking through a book ... first of all, you can trust it. Second, it provides you with everything you need to know to be saved.
" –Why? What proof do you have that Muslims don't? You have a bible, they have the Koran, you have Jesus, they have Mohammed, ... "
Well, that's a question deserving of more time than I have, but I'll give you some generalities. I have God's word, they have a man's word about God. I have God, they have a man. They have revelation problems.
" – This is what I'm saying, no matter how humble you want to be or think you are, but declaring you know god or that you know better than a jew, or muslim or a koko-bono tribesperson in Indonesia is arrogant, no matter how you slice it"
Fine. I'm arrogant. A hypocrit. Aren't we all?
I'm guessing you're not a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong) ... so let me ask you this. What is the biggest problem you have with God?
"What is your biggest problem with god"
This is part of the disconnect, I would imagine he has no problem with god, he just doesn't see any reason to believe he exists.
@Pete
Topher can't really comprehend the concept of a person just not believing in his god because there's no evidence.
Topher can't comprehend a lot of things.
"If you don't mind my asking, what question have you asked? Well, as far as speaking through a book ... first of all, you can trust it. Second, it provides you with everything you need to know to be saved."
–Not a problem, my question is in reponse to your reply, "don't trust me, trust god" is how can I trust god when when he doesn't speak directly to me? You just said not to trust you, so how can I then trust you are right about the bible, about god, and about truth?
"I have God's word, they have a man's word about God. I have God, they have a man. They have revelation problems. "
-Says you, I bet they muslims say the same thing, so why is your word better than an average muslim man?What makes your bible more right than the koran?
"Fine. I'm arrogant. A hypocrit. Aren't we all?"
- I'm glad at least someone can admit it. I appreciate that, for many christians in this forum, understanding that arrogance is distasteful and so they refuse to admit that to be a christian you have a certian amount of arrogance. I won't deny that I also have that arrogance too, but that's something I think christians need to be able to deal with if they want to profess they know the word of god and every other religion does not.
"I'm guessing you're not a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong) ... so let me ask you this. What is the biggest problem you have with God?"
- You are correct, I identify as an Atheist Jew (mostly for heritage and cultural reasons than the religious aspect of Judaism), and my "biggest problem with god" depends. As a jew, my biggest problem was based on gods exclusivity, need for attention, petty human emotion that he's supposed to be above (like jealousy, need to be worshiped, etc...), the idea that all my success should be awarded to him but all my failures are my fault and god should never take the blame or failure but gets to reap the rewards of success.
That's why I now don't identify as a jew when discussing exlcusivly religious stuff with people and instead choose atheism, and in that vein my "biggest problem with god" doesn't make sense to me. As Pete pointed out, I don't have a problem with god (or rather, specifically the god of israel) the same way I don't have a problem with Zeus, I don't believe they exist and if one or both did, then I would have issues with Zeus screwing everything in sight, or the fact that god violated the sancti.ty of marriage by taking the vir.ginity of a married woman before her husband could and impregnated her. They are fun stories, but do I have actual, legitmate feelings towards something that doesn't exist? No.
chuckles
Based on your last statement alone you really cannot see the difference between Zeus and God?
Another question, is eternity self evident to you or is existence confined to the time line of our known universe i.e. there is only beginning and end?
@fred
The difference between the two to me at this point is that god has living followers and zeus's have died out.
"Another question, is eternity self evident to you or is existence confined to the time line of our known universe i.e. there is only beginning and end?"
–So far nothing in this universe has shown that anything is eternal, so why should I believe that my intangible "soul" which has also be found is eternal?
@fred
What a surprise. Fred continues to use his new favorite way to avoid ever actually addressing anyones posts.
Chuckles
" –Not a problem, my question is in reponse to your reply, "don't trust me, trust god" is how can I trust god when when he doesn't speak directly to me?"
Well, He wrote 66 books in order for you to know Him. Why not trust that?
"You just said not to trust you, so how can I then trust you are right about the bible, about god, and about truth?"
I'd like to tell you you can trust me, but I'm fallible, so I might get things wrong. That's why you should trust God over me. You can take anything I say and compare it to what God says. See if I'm right. Tell me when I'm wrong. But God revealed Himself in the Bible and that you can trust.
" -Says you, I bet they muslims say the same thing, so why is your word better than an average muslim man?What makes your bible more right than the koran?"
So basically, why should you trust the Bible? Because it's a reliable collection of historic doc.uments (so a great deal is believeable right off) written by eyewitnesses (not hundreds of years later) during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (which gives it an automatic baloney detector ... if the authors stretched the truth, they would have called them on it) who claimed to experience supernatural events (when the afore-mentioned credibility established, it's conceivable this was accurate, too.)
" – I'm glad at least someone can admit it. I appreciate that, for many christians in this forum, understanding that arrogance is distasteful and so they refuse to admit that to be a christian you have a certian amount of arrogance. I won't deny that I also have that arrogance too, but that's something I think christians need to be able to deal with if they want to profess they know the word of god and every other religion does not."
Christians should readily admit they aren't good people. The Bible says so ... "there are none who are good. No, not one." And you'll probably think this is ridiculous, but it's true. Born-again believers KNOW the Bible is true. Take this analogy ... A boy is told by his father not to touch the heater because it's hot. The boy believes his father. But then when dad leaves the room, junior has to test that belief. He goes over and puts his hand on the heater. Sssssss! As soon as his flesh comes into contact, he moves past the realm of belief into KNOWING it's hot. That what happens with Christians. Not sure how else to explain it. We can believe it's true, but when you are born again, you obtain KNOWLEDGE of its truth.
Nonsense. How do you religious loons think anyway?
@Topher
"Well, He wrote 66 books in order for you to know Him. Why not trust that?"
–Because those are books, which you told me not to trust either, you said to trust nothing but god, but how can I trust god or even his existance when he only chooses to either write stuff that's 2,000 years old as the most recent and talking through other people?
"I'd like to tell you you can trust me, but I'm fallible, so I might get things wrong. That's why you should trust God over me. You can take anything I say and compare it to what God says. See if I'm right. Tell me when I'm wrong. But God revealed Himself in the Bible and that you can trust."
–You just said you were fallible, so how can I trust you are right that the bible is true and that's what god revealed himself through, god isn't speaking with me directly.... I think we're caught in this loop but you aren't seeing the illogical reasoning here of saying not to trust you but to trust you when you say that the bible is true.
"So basically, why should you trust the Bible? Because it's a reliable collection of historic doc.uments (so a great deal is believeable right off) written by eyewitnesses (not hundreds of years later) during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (which gives it an automatic baloney detector ... if the authors stretched the truth, they would have called them on it) who claimed to experience supernatural events (when the afore-mentioned credibility established, it's conceivable this was accurate, too.)"
- You're going to see some well worn atheists answers here, but look, the bible having been written a long time ago in no way makes it reliable true, it does make it historical, but same can be said about Beowulf. I don't believe Grendel is real though just because there's enough time between now and then to not be able to prove that Grendel isn't real.
The eyewitnesses part is bull for 2 reasons 1) it was written after the fact and 2) most people weren't literate so if the scribes did bs anything, they wouldn't have been called on it because the eyewitnesses couldn't read it and correct it, so that's bunk.
Also, considering we have nothing to go on that supernatural events can or have happened, what makes you think that supernatural events can happen, because a book tells you so? How can you just accept that statement without thinking something sounds wrong there?
"Christians should readily admit they aren't good people."
–Whoa! I never said christains aren't good people, I said they are arrogant, two VERY different things.
"A boy is told by his father not to touch the heater because it's hot. The boy believes his father. But then when dad leaves the room, junior has to test that belief. He goes over and puts his hand on the heater. Sssssss! As soon as his flesh comes into contact, he moves past the realm of belief into KNOWING it's hot. That what happens with Christians. Not sure how else to explain it. We can believe it's true, but when you are born again, you obtain KNOWLEDGE of its truth."
–I hate this analogy and I've written a lot about how much I hate the father/son analogy. Not only are there so many issues with it considering the "why" we are learning lessons from our father, but to look at this specific one and why it doesn't make sense. If the child is given the knowledge by his dad that the heater is hot, he has the knowledge whether he's tested it or not and the father was explicit. The son didn't gain any new knowledge by touching it, he just gained a blister. However, to make this analogy more accurate, here's how it really goes. An absent father that a kid has never seen be believes lives in the same house as him likes to leave notes around the house to teach his son lessons, but they aren't explicit so when the child comes across the heater there's a note that just reads, "Careful" on it. The kid doesn't know what the heater is or what that means, does careful mean that it's bad and he should stay away, should he handle it carefully and not break it? will it hurt him or can he use it to hurt others? He isn't sure so he touches it and it burns him and NOW he gains the knowledge that he needs to be careful because it is hot and can burn him, so who did the teaching and learning here? The kid is clearly learning things but is it right to attribute this learning moment to the father when he's not around and his note didn't really help the kid at all because he still got burned.
*Sigh.* And so circular reasoning from a religious kook derails yet ANOTHER discussion.
@TANK
It's the only way they can delude themselves into thinking they've won the argument.
Chuckles
If eternity is not self evident to you then you are correct there is no place for God or soul in your perception of reality.
Zeus is fashioned from man which means Zeus was a created thing from the thoughts of man. We are created and everything we know is created or composed from other created things. In the absence of God it is all we are capable of knowing. Hence Zeus reiks of the created fallen thoughts of man.
“In the beginning God” is the opening of the Bible. The Bible gets it right by identifying God as existing before thoughts, before baryonic matter, before time and space. There can be no doubt that God is not of man or like man in any known physical attributes or even known or knowable substance.. God is the Alpha and the Omega, eternal, self existent I AM as he referred to Himself for the benefit of Moses. God cannot be measured as man measures anything because God is beyond the boundaries of any known system of measure.
There is no mistaking a manmade creation from the Creator.
Chuckles
" –Because those are books, which you told me not to trust either, you said to trust nothing but god, but how can I trust god or even his existance when he only chooses to either write stuff that's 2,000 years old as the most recent and talking through other people?"
But God wrote them. They are God's Word. So you can trust it. Just because we've had it 2,000 years doesn't make it any less true or relevant. And God could be putting me in your path today for a reason. All I'm saying is trust God and His Word. He's offered you the greatest kindness anyone could ever offer you ... repent and trust in Him today! None of us are promised another day.
" –You just said you were fallible, so how can I trust you are right that the bible is true and that's what god revealed himself through, god isn't speaking with me directly..."
Read the Bible. Research it. Check it out. Test it.
" I think we're caught in this loop but you aren't seeing the illogical reasoning here of saying not to trust you but to trust you when you say that the bible is true. "
No, I see what you are saying. But again, trust God. Judge what is true by what God says in the Bible.
" – You're going to see some well worn atheists answers here, but look, the bible having been written a long time ago in no way makes it reliable true, it does make it historical, but same can be said about Beowulf."
I agree. But my point is it's not "historical" because it's old but because it has it's historical facts right. Did you know not one historical comment (on kings or cities or events) has been proven false?
" The eyewitnesses part is bull for 2 reasons 1) it was written after the fact"
Everything that is written is written after the fact.
"and 2) most people weren't literate so if the scribes did bs anything, they wouldn't have been called on it because the eyewitnesses couldn't read it and correct it, so that's bunk."
Well, first, how do you know they couldn't read? Plenty of people could read. The scribes could. The religious leaders could. Many of Jesus' followers could (Luke was a physician, Matthew was a tax collector ... thus well educated men) ... people the epistles were written to could read ... there's just no excuse here that people couldn't read. They met together in churches and there must have been ONE person there who could read Paul's letters.
"Also, considering we have nothing to go on that supernatural events can or have happened, what makes you think that supernatural events can happen, because a book tells you so? How can you just accept that statement without thinking something sounds wrong there?"
Well, because I believe in creation. That would be a supernatural event. I just don't have enough faith to believe that nothingness exploded and created order ... that this is all an accident. And my conscience reveals to me there MUST be a God.
Christianity might be a little believable if it had not been for those early apologists who said the reason the gospels looked so much like earlier pagan writings was that it was a pre-emptive strike by Satan to throw people off. LOL.
@Topher
Are you saying that god was the one to put pen to paper? If so, why wouldn't god appear now and right a new book that is more relevant to our times. Some of the messages in the bible are still relevant I grant you (the golden rule) but some are hopelessly antiquated or don't mention some pretty serious stuff that would be of great assistance if we could get the cosmic creator to weigh in on some issues.
"Read the Bible. Research it. Check it out. Test it. "
–I've both read and researched it which makes me believe even MORE so that it shouldn't be taken as real or verifiable, you have an even greater hill ahead of you to actually tell me why I should believe you or the bible after you've told me that I shouldn't take you at your word nor the bible, but I should listen to god, who is still completely and utterly absent.
"But again, trust God. Judge what is true by what God says in the Bible"
– How can I trust god when he has yet to speak to me, regardless of my atheism or not and the bible, like I stated above is suspect enough that why should I believe what the bible has to say about god.
"I agree. But my point is it's not "historical" because it's old but because it has it's historical facts right. Did you know not one historical comment (on kings or cities or events) has been proven false?"
- Just because there are real places and people in the bible does not mean that all the claims that are made are true, ever hear of historical fiction? Stories taking place in real places doesn't make the stories any truer, you know this.
"Everything that is written is written after the fact. "
Apologies, I should have been clearer, it was written YEARS after the fact. I don't know about you but I can't tell you in perfect detail what happened to me years ago, the story gets twisted and facts change with time. Not to mention since the bible went through the council of Nicea, it was intentionally shaped, plus there is translation error, so why on earth would I read the bible and believe for a moment that what I'm reading is direct accounts from someone 2,000 years ago?
"Well, first, how do you know they couldn't read? Plenty of people could read. The scribes could. The religious leaders could. Many of Jesus' followers could (Luke was a physician, Matthew was a tax collector ... thus well educated men) ... people the epistles were written to could read ... there's just no excuse here that people couldn't read. They met together in churches and there must have been ONE person there who could read Paul's letters."
–Well we're at an impass that can't be solved because who's to know how many of these eye witnesses who had their testimonies written down could actually read or not? I place my bet on they couldn't because the average person in that time could not.
"Well, because I believe in creation. That would be a supernatural event. I just don't have enough faith to believe that nothingness exploded and created order ... that this is all an accident. And my conscience reveals to me there MUST be a God."
- Sort of, you are bending the definition of "supernatural" here. Before the big bang, there was no "nature" to speak of, so anything that happened was "supernatural" in the most basic sense of the word. You are attributing that to a) your god and b) that this one creation event somehow corrolates to supernatural events on a much much much smaller scale happening billions of years and then not happening again, not to mention have 0 impact on nature itself the way the big bang did and you somehow take this as proof that suprenatural events can and have happened exactly as they did in the bible? Topher, that seems like a very long stretch, way more so than what you described as nothingness exploding into something "that's not what happened anyway, a singularity, which is something, rapidly expanded. This isn't playing semantics either, this is severely different than how you described it)
Chuckles
"Are you saying that god was the one to put pen to paper?"
No. God inspired men to write exactly what He wanted written. You've probably heard the pen analogy. Who do you give credit to for writting a letter? The pen or the person? God used men like a pen, though they kept their own personalities and writing styles.
"If so, why wouldn't god appear now and right a new book that is more relevant to our times"
Why does He need to? He did appear to us. He was here 33 years, 3 of which He had a very public ministry.
"Some of the messages in the bible are still relevant I grant you (the golden rule) but some are hopelessly antiquated or don't mention some pretty serious stuff that would be of great assistance if we could get the cosmic creator to weigh in on some issues. "
Like what? He already told us in the Bible how to be saved. What is more important than that? What issue would you like Him to deal with that's not in the Bible?
" –I've both read and researched it which makes me believe even MORE so that it shouldn't be taken as real or verifiable, you have an even greater hill ahead of you to actually tell me why I should believe you or the bible after you've told me that I shouldn't take you at your word nor the bible, but I should listen to god, who is still completely and utterly absent."
I've never said not to trust the Bible. Because it is God's Word you can trust it since it's from Him. And God isn't absent from anything.
" – How can I trust god when he has yet to speak to me, regardless of my atheism or not and the bible, like I stated above is suspect enough that why should I believe what the bible has to say about god. "
No offense dude, but this is coming back to the arrogance stuff. Who are you that you should get a special privilege of an appearance from God? He appeared to us. He gave us what we need to know. Millions around the globe find there's enough evidence to conclude in the affirmative for God. Why not you?
" – Just because there are real places and people in the bible does not mean that all the claims that are made are true, ever hear of historical fiction? Stories taking place in real places doesn't make the stories any truer, you know this. "
Totally agree. But the Bible claims to be more than historical fiction. It's not even written similarly. I'm just saying that the fact it has it's facts right leads to its credibility.
" Apologies, I should have been clearer, it was written YEARS after the fact."
Decades at the most. Some were right away, though.
"Not to mention since the bible went through the council of Nicea, it was intentionally shaped, plus there is translation error, so why on earth would I read the bible and believe for a moment that what I'm reading is direct accounts from someone 2,000 years ago?"
Well, the council was to put an end to a heresy that was growing in popularity. Nothing was really "shaped" as we already had the books and held them as from God.
Yes, there are a few minor translation errors, but we know about them ... what and where they are and since we have such early copies of the originals in their original languages, we know what they should be. This really shouldn't be a problem.
" – Sort of, you are bending the definition of "supernatural" here. Before the big bang, there was no "nature" to speak of, so anything that happened was "supernatural" in the most basic sense of the word."
But what got "banged" if there was nothing to bang?
"You are attributing that to a) your god"
True. Because I believe Him when He says He did something.
"and b) that this one creation event somehow corrolates to supernatural events on a much much much smaller scale happening billions of years and then not happening again, not to mention have 0 impact on nature itself the way the big bang did and you somehow take this as proof that suprenatural events can and have happened exactly as they did in the bible?"
Fair enough. But if the creation account is true, it makes everything else supernatural in the Bible at least plausible. If God can create the universe in six days, He could certainly come to earth, He could die for our sins, He could raise Himself up ... "
"Topher, that seems like a very long stretch, way more so than what you described as nothingness exploding into something "that's not what happened anyway, a singularity, which is something, rapidly expanded. This isn't playing semantics either, this is severely different than how you described it)"
Fine. Where did the singularity come from?
Topher: "Yes, there are a few minor translation errors, but we know about them ... what and where they are and since we have such early copies of the originals in their original languages, we know what they should be. This really shouldn't be a problem."
LOL – Yes not confounded errors. I wonder if that had anything to do with the splintering into over 30,000 denominations. LOL.
Yes those confounded errors.
Topher wrote, "I just don't have enough faith to believe that nothingness exploded and created order ..."
Topher is fond of posting crãp like this. What is hard to fathom is why? Over and over and over Topher has been told that that the Big Bang (which was neither big nor a bang) was most certainly not "nothingness" and most definately not an explosion. He has repeatedly been given links to actual s ience sites that explain it.
So what is it when he turns around and re-posts the exact sme thing? We call that a lie. Why does Topher lie in the name of his god?
Prime, your answer is found in AiG's mission statement, and it is one that is so incredibly disingenuous as to be virtually unbelievable – but here it is.
" By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information. "
@Topher
You've already stated that men are fallible and if the men who wrote the bible kept their own writing styles and personalites, then right off the bat gods word is being distorted. Your analogy sort of works but what if you're writing and the pen has a mind of its own and chooses which words it wants to write?
"Why does He need to? He did appear to us. He was here 33 years, 3 of which He had a very public ministry"
–He needs to because clearly man has muddled his message A LOT and define "very pu.blic", his message didn't even make it out of the Middle East, you'd think it would make sense for him to reappear in a new glob.alized society to get his message to EVERYONE not just middle easterners.
"Like what? He already told us in the Bible how to be saved. What is more important than that? What issue would you like Him to deal with that's not in the Bible?"
–First, if the only thing that's important is getting into heaven, and that is by saying jesus is the lord and savior, then the bible should be a pamphlet. What else should be in the bible? What about r.a.pe? ha.te discri.mi.nation? ide.nti.ty theft? mass mur.ders and ge.noc.i.des? your god is pretty mum on these topics.
"No offense dude, but this is coming back to the arrogance stuff. Who are you that you should get a special privilege of an appearance from God? He appeared to us. He gave us what we need to know. Millions around the globe find there's enough evidence to conclude in the affirmative for God. Why not you?"
–None taken, I'm one of very many though that would appreciate if god popped by for a sec just to give a howdy, in fact 2/3rds of the worlds population could use it, so 66.66% of the worlds population doesn't warrent an appearance? As for the evidence thing, just because so many have found that evidence doesn't mean it's any truer, so far the evidence you've given me is to read the bible and decide for myself, I have and the ev.iden.ce is lac.king.
"claims to be more than historical fiction"
– a book that claims it's all true doesn not make it so. Read Dracula, that too claims to be real, it's set in a real place and real events, but do you honestly think that there was a blood su.cking vampire ter.rori.zing london just because the book says so?
" Nothing was really "shaped" as we already had the books and held them as from God ...Yes, there are a few minor translation errors, but we know about them ... This really shouldn't be a problem."
- First, the fact that the council decided what made it in and what didn't is a form of shaping the message, not to mention who knows exactly what went down at the council if they didn't rewrite anything. Second, Translation errors are many and knowing about them doesn't correct them, it's a very big problem and shouldn't be swept under the rug.
"But what got "ban.ged" if there was nothing to bang?"
- The name itself was actually coined by a christian like yourself as a joke to try and undermine the theory itself and the name stuck. Nothing got "ban.ged" It was just an insanely powerful, fast and massive expansion from a singularity.
"Fair enough. But if the creation account is true, it makes everything else supernatural in the Bible at least plausible. If God can create the universe in six days, He could certainly come to earth, He could die for our sins, He could raise Himself up ... "
–Sure, except the creation account doesn't sound true, it says light, the earth and plants came before the sun. The order the animals were created don't mesh with fossil records, not to mention, why could the all powerful god do this in a single "day"? how can an all powerful god get tired, let alone tired enough to require a full creation day's worth of rest?
"Where did the singularity come from"
–We don't know, we might not ever know, but don't take this answer to mean that you can just stick god in there. Using a book written by man billions of years after the universes formation is not nearly enough evidence to start inserting your own theory as to where the singularity came from as "god"
Primewonk
"Topher is fond of posting crãp like this."
Why is it crap?
"What is hard to fathom is why? Over and over and over Topher has been told that that the Big Bang (which was neither big nor a bang) ..."
How do you know?
"... was most certainly not "nothingness" and most definately not an explosion. He has repeatedly been given links to actual s ience sites that explain it."
I can give you tons of links to explain it by Creation. So what? And I can give you plenty of links that says it WAS an explosion according to 'science.' And so what that you have links to your opinion about how the Big Bang worked? I bet there's several other atheists who could give us different links to agree with me, agree with you or disagree with both of us. The problem is there's too many theories. And the reason there is too many theories is because in your worldview, you don't KNOW what happened. You weren't there. No one was but God. Thus the usefullness of historical science.
"So what is it when he turns around and re-posts the exact sme thing? We call that a lie. Why does Topher lie in the name of his god?"
Oh, I didn't realize we got to change the definitions of things. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm lying. And I'm certainly not lying in the name of God. He was there and has told us how it happened. End of story. The beginning of truth.
Have a good one, everyone. I've gotta go for the day. God bless.
Topher said..." Oh, I didn't realize we got to change the definitions of things. " Yet you have no problem with AiG doing exactly that with the scientific method. It may be good theology, but it most assuredly is not good science.
Topher got one thing right, he is not lying for god because god doesn't exist.
Re: Washington Post: Prince George’s Co. school lets Muslim students out of class to pray
This seems a bit too accommodating, to me. Nothing illegal but it seems like it would be difficult to remain impartial with all the different religious rules out there.
It also seems dangerous. If they are letting different groups go different places to do their praying, can they still be monitored in the ways that the school system would normally monitor them? Could this more likely incite division between students than already exists?
I would assume they are not completely unsupervised, but if not, yes, that would be an issue. Otherwise, though religious groups or clubs are certainly reasonable but can all be handled in the same way, e.g. Bible/Koran/scripture study clubs.. Pulling kids out of class, though, is different, I think.
This needs to stop now!
No preying or prey breaks in our schools!
The difference is in specific requirements of a faith. Adherents to the Muslim faith are required, by that faith, to pray at specific times during the day and in a certain manner. Adherents to Christian faiths are under no similar compunctions.
Then again, all religions are made up bullshit, so what the hell does it matter.
I'm here to troll religious people. Why do you all worship a vindictive racist petty make-believe being? (Directed at followers of abrahamic religions)
Since it is impossible for you to tell any Truth your appearance is nothing more than proof of your stupidity. Do the world a favor, you won't be missed.
The interview with David Lamb (re: Quote of the day) certainly seems to be an example of cherry-picking.
@me2
I don't call that chery picking. I grew up in a catholic family, and i have seen this more than enough to know – it is a liar telling you what they want you to think. It has no basis in the bible, but that is what sounds good. It's not really lying in their opinion because they believe they know the truth and it is just interpreting the bible.
to read about our next president, Hillary Clinton, speaking oh behalf of LGBT rights in the world arena:
(from yesterday's article) "As Hillary Clinton makes a whirlwind round of appearances in her last days as secretary of state, one groundbreaking aspect of her work deserves a moment in the spotlight: In a bold departure with tradition, Clinton made the promotion of equality for gay people a core value of U.S. foreign policy."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/30/opinion/ghitis-hillary-clinton-lgbt-rights/index.html?iref=allsearch
(video also at link)
I'm not n huge Hillary fan, but i agree that she is the likely nominee and there seems tobe little hope of the Republicans getting their image clean enough to win an election any time soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFj-HnG8ja8&feature=player_embedded
YOU GOTTA WATCH THIS VIDEO!
No
This is getting out of hand.
The other day, my phone wouldn't even load the Speed Read because it was too large due to all of Ll's videos.
This new-found knowledge is getting old, fast.
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind
Different kinds of fundamentalist Christians now as much as ever are arguing with each other with as much sense and rationality as a flock of chickens. They can't support their beliefs by any reasonable means, yet they deem themselves fit to judge others from those beliefs or attempt to put others in the midst of their religious infighting. Their beliefs have a very weak foundation and are not consistent, ergo the over 30,000 different denominations.
Thomas Jefferson
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
John Adams
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.
James Madison
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
Thomas Paine
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
Wise words from wise men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tDM8d3J-UX0
lionlylamb: I think you are very intelligent, you have a very good, hard to argue with vidio on the paganism in the present day churches (I think, for the most part, that the protestant churches are full of unbibical paganism rituals and beliefs but don't know it and the Papacy is an agency of Satan) but what is your point and real message? But what has all this eletrical stuff got to do with religion and beliefs?
nobody in particular,
I have a sense of understanding that an 'age' of enlightenment is upon our generations up and coming masses. As with these experimentations of using various coils and magnets unlike the standardized perceptions long held considerations, our very young and knowledgeable experimenters are showing their desires to think outside the realms of long held views.
Looks like another day of liarlylame posting insipid videos and Ratty Lipfungus calling everyone cunts, amongst other brainiacs-at-work.
I think I skip it and go have fun.