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February 8th, 2013
05:36 AM ET

Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Friday, February 08, 2013

By Arielle Hawkins, CNN

Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.

From the Blog:

CNN: Catholic Bishops not satisfied with Obama’s contraception compromise
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops does not support the Obama administration’s revised proposal for providing insurance coverage for contraception, saying it falls short of addressing concerns about religious freedom.


President Barack Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast Thursday, February 07, 2013.

CNN: Picking up a bagel instead of a partisan fight
Translation headsets squawked in four languages at the early morning breakfast in Washington, mixing in with the sounds of stirred coffee and clinking china in the immense ballroom at the Washington Hilton. For the 61st time, the president came to pray with the U.S. Senate and House prayer groups at the National Prayer Breakfast. It is an event that is equal parts prayer and politics, where members of both parties laud one another about a temporary political truce, lay down their partisan ammunition, and pause to pray together.

CNN: Religion, readability and the presidency: a historic combination
Employing faith, whether calling for nationwide prayer or healing the nation by quoting scripture, is a presidential tradition as old as the office itself. The nation’s first president, George Washington, was also the first to call for a National Day of Prayer, one of “fasting, humiliation and prayer” to “acknowledge the gracious interpositions of Providence.” President Barack Obama continued this tradition on Thursday when he attended the National Prayer Breakfast, a longstanding Washington event that has hosted every president since Dwight Eisenhower.

CNN: Mecca redevelopment sparks heritage concerns
An Ottoman-era portico in Mecca's Grand Mosque has become the latest battleground in a conflict between those who want to preserve the city's architectural heritage and Saudi authorities pushing for redevelopment. The 17th century portico - one of the oldest parts of the Grand Mosque, Islam's holiest - is being removed by Mecca authorities as part of an expansion project to create more space for soaring numbers of pilgrims.

CNN: Lutheran pastor apologizes for praying in Newtown vigil
A Lutheran pastor has apologized after being chastised by his denomination's leader for offering a prayer at an interfaith vigil for the victims of the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut. Pastor Rob Morris, who leads the Christ the King Lutheran Church in Newtown, violated the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod's rule against taking part in joint worship services, said the synod's president, Pastor Matthew C. Harrison.

Belief on TV:

Photos of the Day:

A worshipper burns incense while offering prayers at the Yonghegong lama temple in Beijing on February 8, 2013. China is preparing to welcome the lunar new year, or spring festival, which falls on February 10.

Calligraphers write down best wishes for the lunar New Year or Tet in Vietnamese, for customers outside the Temple of Literature in downtown Hanoi on February 8, 2013. Vietnamese will have from this week-end a nine-day long Tet holiday, the longest ever lunar New Year holiday provided by the Vietnamese government.

A Hindu woman prays on the shore of the confluence of the Yomuna and the Ganges river at the Sangam during the Maha Kumbh festival in Allahabad on February 7, 2013. The Kumbh Mela in the town of Allahabad will see up to 100 million worshippers gather over 55 days to take a ritual bath in the holy waters, believed to cleanse sins and bestow blessings.

Enlightening Reads:

Washington Post: Obama adviser Joshua DuBois to leave Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships
President Obama announced Thursday at the National Prayer Breakfast that Joshua DuBois, head of his Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships would be leaving the post, effective Friday. DuBois was 26 when he was chosen by the president to serve as director. Obama has often mentioned the inspiration he finds in DuBois’ daily Scripture e-mails, making the faith-based office director an informal spiritual adviser to the president.

BBC: Timbuktu's art of saving its manuscripts
Since Islamist militants were driven out of urban centres in northern Mali by French-led forces, there have been conflicting reports about the documents in Timbuktu, some of which date back to the 10th Century. However, the majority of the manuscripts in the new South African-funded institute appear to have been protected.

Religion News Service: Fasting like an Old Testament prophet gains followers during Lent
Amy Lester has followed Jesus for decades, but her keen appreciation for his sacrifice on the cross came only recently when she started eating like the prophet Daniel. During Lent, which starts Wednesday (Feb. 13), the 40-year-old mother of two keeps a type of Daniel Fast, which involves eating only food from seeds (vegetables, fruits, unleavened grains), drinking only water and practicing daily devotions. Devotees say the Daniel Fast brings them closer to God by enhancing self-control, purging bad habits and improving health. It bears echoes of ancient tradition. Forgoing meat, dairy and sweeteners for a season makes the Daniel Fast resemble Orthodox Lent, which restricts consumption of meat, dairy, and oils in the run-up to Easter.

The Guardian: Church of England's house of bishops to allow female clergy into meetings
The house of bishops of the Church of England, which makes up a third of the General Synod, has decided to allow senior female clergy to attend and speak at its meetings until women are legally permitted to become bishops.

Catholic News Agency: Vatican official rejects claims that he endorsed same-sex unions
Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, denounced media assertions that his recent comments show Vatican support for homosexual unions. The archbishop said he was “very surprised” by reports claiming that some of his recent statements signaled an “openness” on the part of the Church to same-sex unions.

The Guardian: Churches and synagogues 'priced out of civil partnership ceremonies'
Religious institutions in the United Kingdom have been priced out of offering civil partnership ceremonies by high licensing fees, according to Unitarian ministers and liberal rabbis. Councils are charging churches and synagogues up to 16 times more for a three-year license to hold civil partnership ceremonies than for a permanent license to conduct marriages, Guardian research has revealed.

Quote of the Day:

I know that all Americans, men and women of different faiths, and yes those of no faith that they can name are nevertheless joined together in common purpose, believing in something that is bigger than ourselves and the ideals that lie at the heart of our nation's founding that as a people we are bound together. And so this morning let us summon the common resolve that comes from our faith. Let us pray to God that we may be worthy of the many blessings he has bestowed upon our nation. Let us retain that humility not just during this hour but for every hour. And let me suggest that those of us with the most power and influence need to be the most humble.

- President Barack Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast on February 7, 2013.

Opinion of the Day:

CNN: My take: Science, faith communities unite to protect millions from disease
Dagfinn Høybråten is a vice president of the Norwegian Parliament and chairman of the GAVI Alliance Board. GAVI is a public-private partnership that works with governments, vaccine producers, faith-based organizations and others to expand access to vaccines and immunization. Høybråten writes that “faith and science are also coming together around the world to promote healing and equality in the form of access to vaccines.”

Join the conversation…

CNN: Boy Scout leaders to vote on ending ban against gay membership
The polarizing debate over whether Boy Scouts of America should allow gay members could culminate with a vote on a new policy Wednesday. But no matter which way the vote goes, activists on both sides aren't going to be satisfied. The controversy pits leaders of religious groups that sponsor about 1 million Boy Scouts against activists who want the organization to end its ban on openly gay Scouts and Scout leaders.

- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Uncategorized

soundoff (235 Responses)
  1. Chad

    Just like it happens in the celestial vib ratory plane, opposing traffic flows with the appropriate electromagnetic vibrations should be able to pass through one another unimpeded. I'm not sure what the best phase angle is, but I have set up my Jetta with a variety of possibilities so I can try it out. I have reason to believe that red lights and other obstacles to progress do not apply to me because I am on the One True Path spoken of in the Bible.

    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

    February 8, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • Johnny Guitar

      "I have reason to believe that red lights and other obstacles to progress do not apply to me"

      If this is a pseudoChad, then that's a very funny line. If this is the real Chad, then Chad is even more insane that I ever imagined.

      February 9, 2013 at 2:05 am |
  2. lionlylamb

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4w6aJMNXSk&w=640&h=360]

    February 8, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
  3. lionlylamb

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceEog1XS5OI&w=640&h=360]

    February 8, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
  4. lionlylamb

    A small version of a car that runs on compressed air 02/02/13

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RBl1LFUQ4c&w=640&h=360]

    February 8, 2013 at 7:33 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyDqcseqWY&w=640&h=360]

      February 8, 2013 at 8:32 pm |
  5. December

    For the past week Akira and End Religion has been harassing me. They claim I am some Douglas guy, that I live in Colorado and that my girlfriend and me have been harassing them.

    They also claim to know where I work.

    And End Religion likes to post anti-gay remarks to me.

    It is weird, and these folks came out of nowhere.

    I tried to explain they may have me confused with someone else. Maybe somebody else was posting as "December".

    But nope. They claimed I was a liar. And they could trace my ip address. And it went to Colorado Springs, CO.

    Ok, I live in KC. I even posted about that 3 days before they started harassing me.

    Yet they still kept calling me a liar. And posting that my ip address shows I'm in Colorado.

    ***These pics are my EVIDENCE that I live in KC*****

    http://tinypic.com/r/e0rgx4/6

    http://tinypic.com/r/zwgmch/6

    Akira claims she detests a liar.

    She knows she can't read my ip address.

    She tried this lie on another poster, and he seemed just as confused as me about it.

    Please stop it, Akira.

    And seriously, if you need help, don't be afraid to ask for some.

    February 8, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
    • Seriously?

      Your EGO is getting the best of you, so much for following Christ's example.

      Seek some professional help.

      February 8, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • Terry

      Dec., nuff with the tinypic linkspam already. And hey, hope you can lose some weight in the new year.

      February 8, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • December

      >> Terry

      Yea, sorry. 1 post was enough.

      Weight loss? Not me.

      February 8, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • Dippy

      It's "girlfriend and I," not "girlfriend and me." Add bad grammar to your other deficiencies, December.

      February 8, 2013 at 8:28 pm |
  6. Science

    Earth’s timeline Fact L4H

    Trace our planet's geological and biological ages

    Interactive Easy do to

    February 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
    • Science

      Oops source for above

      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33184839/ns/technology_and_science/

      February 8, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • Science

      For above oops
      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33184839/ns/technology_and_science/

      February 8, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
  7. Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

    It's Grammy Award weekend. If we jump back to 2001, that year Henry Mancini's soundtrack album for the 1963 film The Pink Panther, performed by his orchestra was awarded a Grammy Hall of Fame Award. The score was listed at #20 on AFI's 100 Years of Film Scores. In the days before orchestral synthesis, few could put vocals and orchestra together for drama, comedy and everything in between with the cleverness demonstrated by Mancini.

    From The Pink Panther soundtrack, here is The Lonely Princess followed by the vocal version of It Had Better Be Tonight.

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t54kRTYgmg&w=640&h=360]

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI1JdpocNsg&w=640&h=360]

    February 8, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
  8. HotAirAce

    Now I know how Alice felt going down the rabbit hole. I bet even FUC (F'cked Up Chad) is shaking his head at his fellow delusional believers. I can't wait for Topher and Austin to jump in and try to rescue Lie4ImaginaryFriend and fred.

    February 8, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • captain america

      Why don't you take your foul mouth and your foul beliefs and stick em where the sun don't shine in your own country and leave ours to US. You are not needed or wanted here. There's your sign

      February 8, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      CA: Go f'ck yourself.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • == o ==

      The only kind of "trickle-down" that actually works:

      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" degenerates to:
      "Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "Ronald Regonzo" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "nope" degenerates to:
      and many other names, but of course I prefer to refer to this extreme homophobe as
      the disgruntled ex Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. "writer".

      February 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
  9. niknak

    Afternoon all,
    Been a long week, so glad it is almost over.
    But as always, it was a great week without god(s).

    February 8, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
  10. Live4Him

    I apologize for the delay in responding.

    @ME II : Empirical evidence is usually meant as evidence gain by observation or experimentation.

    Then you must agree that the Bible is empirical evidence, since you can gather the information by observation.

    @ME II : No, not mine. The link provided refers to "Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament" but is also similar to the interpretations of:

    You just fell into the logic fallacy of Appeal to Authority (or Argumentum ad Verecundiam). And next you'll see why you should evaluate the info yourself.

    @ME II : The verb "divide" (??? palag) occurs only three times elsewhere in the Hebrew scriptures 1 Chronicles 1:19; Job 38:25; Psalm 55:10.

    Hermeneutics

    For proper hermeneutics, one must evaluate the definition of the relevant words, their context and similar uses elsewhere in scripture. So, lets look at all three passages, rather than the one the author favors.

    1Ch 1:19 Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan. (same passage)
    Job 38:25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm (CLEARLY talking about dividing the soil)
    Psalm 55:10 (actually, 55:9) Confuse the wicked, O Lord, confound their speech, for I see violence and strife in the city. (CLEARLY talking about dividing people)

    So, with this, we see that the action is similar, but not the object. In two of them, the object acted upon is soil. Meanwhile, in the passage favored by the author, the object is people (and not soil). So, not only did this expert have the wrong passage, the object acted upon was different. The key word is not the verb, but the object.

    Septuagint

    Next, lets look at other ancient translations of the Bible. The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, done by Jewish scholars prior to the time of Christ. In the Gen 10:25 passage, the Greek word used is 'ge' – which is where Pangea comes from (i.e. Pan: All and Gea: Land).

    So, in conclusions, this passage is clearly talking about dividing the surface of the earth.

    February 8, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      That The Babble exists is only proof that books are real. It says nothing about the truth of the content contained therein. You are saying the content is evidence simply because it exists. I have a book that says the contents of The Babble are 100% crap. How will you decide which book is correct?

      February 8, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @ Ace By the very same means of a priori conclusions that Stupid4Him has been accusing others of using.

      Take one gem Stupid4Him provided the other day for example. "The Qu'ran lists the members of the Trinity as God, Jesus and Mary. The Bible lists them as God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Qu'ran is wrong, and cannot be trusted."

      February 8, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @HotAirAce : You are saying the content is evidence simply because it exists

      That's the definition of empirical evidence. The Bible has been validated historically through the archeological record. For it to be deemed unreliable, someone would have to find evidence that proved the Bible to be inaccurate.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : "The Qu'ran lists the members of the Trinity as God, Jesus and Mary. The Bible lists them as God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Qu'ran is wrong, and cannot be trusted."

      Would you trust a history book that claimed that Fort Worth Texas was our national capital?

      February 8, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "Then you must agree that the Bible is empirical evidence, since you can gather the information by observation."

      This is just ridiculous. By this logic, the information of any book, or anything written, would be considered empirical evidence. It is the observation of the phenomena itself, not the description of the phenomena, that is empirical.

      "Definition of EMPIRICAL
      1: originating in or based on observation or experience
      2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory
      3: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment
      4: of or relating to empiricism"
      (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical, emphasis added)

      "You just fell into the logic fallacy of Appeal to Authority ..."
      To a certain extent I agree, however, the entire Bible is an Appeal to Authority, so if you want to disregard that, fine. Additionally, how exactly do you know what the "Hebrew scriptures" and words actually mean? On whose authority is that understanding/interpretation based?

      "So, in conclusions, this passage is clearly talking about dividing the surface of the earth."
      Yes, a dividing of the surface of the earth among nations, or descendants of Noah, Peleg, et. al.
      This is explained in the next chapter when it talks about the tower of Babel, etc.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @ Lie4Him False analogy. The overwhelming majority of varying sources would say D.C was the capital. The overwhelming number of RELIGIONS would NOT say the christian description of god and his nature are correct. Saying the christian version of the godhead is the right one amongst the thousands still requires a BASELESS A PRIORI CONCLUSION. Try again.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • Answer

      Laughing at creationists is so fun.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm (CLEARLY talking about dividing the soil)"

      So, soil erosion = Dividing continents.

      Next time a rill forms in your garden, try declaring to geologists that the land on which is your house is built is a new continent.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Lie4ImaginaryFriend, please provide the factual, verifiable, independent, objective evidence that unambiguously proves the resurrection of the man known as jesus. No dodging or circular logic – just the plain facts.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @ME II : By this logic, the information of any book, or anything written, would be considered empirical evidence.

      You CAN observe it can't you?

      @ME II : Additionally, how exactly do you know what the "Hebrew scriptures" and words actually mean? On whose authority is that understanding/interpretation based?

      @ME II : To a certain extent I agree

      To every extent. You cannot even admit when you made a mistake.

      @ME II : the entire Bible is an Appeal to Authority

      This is like claiming that every book is an appeal to authority. Books can contain facts that you can sift through to come to your own conclusions – this is what science is all about.

      @ME II : Additionally, how exactly do you know what the "Hebrew scriptures" and words actually mean?

      Just like English, the Hebrew language has a dictionary (as well as the Greek language).

      @ME II : This is explained in the next chapter when it talks about the tower of Babel, etc.

      So, your position is that every chapter hinges upon the ONE word that you want it to hinge upon? The ONE person you want it to be linked to, even though he was not the last person discussed in the preceeding chapter? Even thoough Peleg name isn't mentioned in the entire Bable paragraph?

      You ARE grasping for straws.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : So, soil erosion = Dividing continents.

      So dividing soil shallow is the small scale division of continents.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry "Live4Him" but all of your assertions today have been unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL".

      February 8, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "So dividing soil shallow is the small scale division of continents."

      Sounds silly when it isn't written in Babblical mumbo-jumbo, doesn't it? I mean, it would sound silly to a normal, thinking person either way, but you're a special case.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "You CAN observe it can't you?"

      All observing information written in a book proves is that there IS information written in a book. The veracity of that information is NOT proven by merely looking at letters on a page.

      Surely you're just being disingenuous? Is this some new tool in your ar-sen-al of sophistry?

      February 8, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • Answer

      The book of "Knots" ... a more useful book than that crap babble.

      The creationists can't even understand how to tie things up in their arguments because their specialty is just holding onto the ends of a rope and making a circle.

      February 8, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Live4Him, please provide the factual, verifiable, independent, objective evidence that unambiguously proves the resurrection of the man known as jesus. No dodging or circular logic – just the plain facts. If you cannot do this, you do not have a basis for using your holy book as you are attempting to do.

      February 8, 2013 at 6:24 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      I, and I think any reasonable person, can only conclude that Live4Him cannot answer my very simple questions. And given the complete absence of any factual evidence, the divine jesus myth is just that, a 100% bullsh!t manmade myth.

      February 9, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "So, your position is that every chapter hinges upon the ONE word that you want it to hinge upon? The ONE person you want it to be linked to, even though he was not the last person discussed in the preceeding chapter? Even thoough Peleg name isn't mentioned in the entire Bable paragraph?

      You ARE grasping for straws."

      You are the one who shoehorned the tectonic activity of the entire planet into this passage based on one word, I'm just providing a more reasonable explanation of that passage, which many others apparently agree with.

      February 10, 2013 at 11:30 am |
  11. Doc Vestibule

    Isn't it odd that the Egyptians, who have continuous historical records for hundreds of years before and after the time of the flood, make no mention of it?

    As per the "canopy" theory:
    In order for 400 feet of water to appear per day, the pressure at the base of such a canopy would be so high that it would need to have a temperature of over 500 degrees Fahrenheit. Any cooler and it would come down as rain.

    Historians have ample archeaological evidence of at least 6 major civilizations that existed at the purported time of the Flood, including Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, Egypt, the Minoan, the ‘Holy Land’ area, and China.
    Tangible evidence from these societies include ruins of cities, tools, pottery, skeletal remains, weapons and written records.
    Records of the Sumerian/Mesopotamian civilization show a continuous ongoing culture from about 3350 BCE to a period well past the Noachian flood. Had there been a global deluge, this record of uninterrupted progress would not exist.

    The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

    February 8, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      This was one of the things that convinced me that the bible wasn't literal but literary, which in turn was the first step away from Christianity for me.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • Tommy

      Your post reminded me of this article from The Onion.

      http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/

      February 8, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Tommy
      My all-time favourite Onion article:
      Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

      http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/

      February 8, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • ilias

      It is common knowledge of the flooding that ocurred with the ending of the last glacial period. The ice was miles high over north america and russia. The Volga river must have been impassable for several thousand years. The black sea was a fertile valley with a lake and probably a heavy population. The ocean levels rose 300 feet. The memory of this was passed on by Bards from generation to generation. How the Hebrews come up with the fable of Noah is unknown. Noah did not write any history book. Most likely this happened around 8 thousand years ago. It is silly to beleive in an Ark with all the animals of the world in it.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
    • meifumado

      @ilias

      Really? Bards? Do you know how long ago this natural occurrence happened?

      February 8, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : Isn't it odd that the Egyptians, who have continuous historical records for hundreds of years before and after the time of the flood, make no mention of it

      You obviously don't know anything about the history of the Egyptians. Today's Egyptian timeline comes from a Egyptian named Manetho in 3rd century BC. His work Aegyptiaca attempts to document the Egyptian history. However, this manuscript did not survive. Instead, his work was quoted by other authors engaged in a debate about the oldest civilizations. As such, his work was almost certainly padded with other material to make the quoting author's case. In fact, prior to about 900 BC, the historical accuracy becomes unreliable as to the number of years ago and even the lineage of the Pharaohs.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Lie4Him, Yet you believe the bible even though it has a similar history.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : In order for 400 feet of water to appear per day,

      This belief comes from ignoring the text which clearly states that the "springs from the deep opened up". All the water did not come from the sky.

      @Doc Vestibule : Historians have ample archeaological evidence of at least 6 major civilizations that existed at the purported time of the Flood

      The flood was around 2400 BC. The only civilizations prior to that history is the Sumerian, the Old Kingdom Egyptian and Harappa. And these dates are based upon Manetho's corrupted history of the Eygptians. If the padding were taken out, it would be likely that the dates would begin around 2400 BC.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : This was one of the things that convinced me that the bible wasn't literal but literary, which in turn was the first step away from Christianity for me.

      Why do you think the experts hold on to a timeline that they KNOW is padded by hundreds of years? It does a great job at putting doubt into the minds of children who take their timeline as fact.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @ilias : It is common knowledge of the flooding that ocurred with the ending of the last glacial period.

      It is a common BELIEF. No one was alive to witness this alleged event. All they can do today is to look at today's evidence, add their own personal opinions and give a conclusion.

      BTW – I'm heading out again – maybe for the night.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      It is becoming clear that a fact is a fact only if Lie4ImaginaryFriend says it is.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
  12. lunchbreaker

    Liv4Him: Let's suppose that a particle leaves a source and is moving at the speed of light. Based on the laws of physics we know that it can't go any faster. Now let's say we know when the particle left the source and how far away from the source our detector is. Suppose that a being that can break the laws of physics, which we can't detect, causes the particle to go faster than lightspeed for a portion of it's travel. When we detect the particle, how should we interperet the reults?

    February 8, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @lunchbreaker : Let's suppose that a particle leaves a source and is moving at the speed of light. Based on the laws of physics we know that it can't go any faster

      How do we know the speed of light outside of our solar system? We don't.

      @lunchbreaker : When we detect the particle, how should we interperet the reults?

      See, this is the problem that I was just addressing. The ONLY thing we know about this particle is the speed it was traveling when it reached us on planet earth. If we separate out the known facts (i.e. speed at a specific time) from the pursumptions (i.e. speed unchanged), then we can know where the evidence begins and the opinions continue.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
  13. Alvin Sklunkman, Assistant Accountant from Beyond the 23rd Dimension!!!

    Next up, Live4Him will scientifically explain how Jonah easily could have survived three days in the fish.

    February 8, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
  14. Doc Vestibule

    I've noticed that Live4Him has ceased responding to me.
    Seems I may have offended.... :`(

    February 8, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • Alvin Sklunkman, Assistant Accountant from Beyond the 23rd Dimension!!!

      You made sense, and he has no defense against that.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • Science

      @Doc
      Know how you feel..

      Funny stuff, what they come up with.
      Peace

      February 8, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : I've noticed that Live4Him has ceased responding to me. Seems I may have offended

      Not at all. I'm not easily offended. If you want to attack me personally, then your post will be ignored. Otherwise, the only limit is my available time. In this case, I had some things to accomplish so I announced that I was stepping out. And started answering the posts as I saw them. As much as I may enjoy the debate, my time is not unlimited.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
    • Terry

      Alvin, what's it like out there past the 23rd? Is Beyonce still too stocky and without enough of a thigh gap from there too?

      February 8, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • Ward

      Terry how dare you post something so off kilter while I'm drinking my tea. Spewwwww... too funny....

      February 8, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
  15. lionlylamb

    Anyone remember the old Dick Tracy shows?

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOVh-vlUius&w=640&h=360]

    February 8, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Billy

      or the Avengers – they suggested some odd technology

      February 8, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
  16. Freeman

    I see Noah's Dorks are trying to prove the idiotic flood story again.

    February 8, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Yeppers

      Watching Christians try to use science is exactly like watching three-year-olds put on mommy and daddy's clothes and try to be grown-ups. You smile and laugh, but you definitely don't let them go drive the car.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
  17. Live4Him

    WORLD WIDE FLOOD

    Well, its a new week so it's time for a new topic to be discussed. This week, we'll be discussing the world wide flood. In order to be objective about this disputatious issue, we'll follow the scientific method to minimize the impact of apriori beliefs. To accomplish this, we will need to determine what empirical evidence would indicate that a worldwide flood had occurred. But, before we can do this, we need to determine the background just prior to the presumed worldwide flood.

    BACKGROUND: Selected Biblical references from Genesis concerning the Flood

    1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
    7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
    7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
    7:12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
    7:17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth.
    7:20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
    7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
    7:24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days
    8:2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
    8:3 The water receded steadily from the earth.
    8:13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year

    10:1 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.
    10:22,24 The sons of Shem: ... Arphaxad ... Arphaxad was the father of Shelah, and Shelah the father of Eber.
    10:25
    Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided;

    BACKGROUND: Before the Flood

    Using these passages, we find a unified earth as a single continent which had mountains, similar to evolution's Pangea. The Bible doesn't specify the height of these mountains though, but they were most probably over 1,000 feet, else they would be considered hills. Some Bible scholars have argued for a canopy over the earth to contain the water from the flood. While this is plausible, this is not definite. If there was a canopy, it would only be a partial canopy since the stars, moon and sun were known.

    BACKGROUND: During the Flood

    When the flood began, the passages indicate that underground water was the major contributor to the flood, with the rains being a secondary contributor. It also appears that the rain stopped before the flood waters stopped rising. The water over the mountains was twenty feet deep and stayed that way for another five months killing all animals that breathed who were not in the ark.

    BACKGROUND: After the Flood

    It took another six months for the water to recede enough for Noah to leave the ark. Four generations after the flood, the earth's single continent split into multiple parts. This indicates that the earth's plate were already moving before the event and could account for the receding waters. These shifting plates would also increase the number of mountains, as well as their overall height.

    CONDITIONS

    CANOPY: Venus is a planet with a canopy, so we can use it to determine the impact of a canopy. It tends to be warmer with a more uniform temperature, than it would be without this canopy. So, if there was a canopy on earth before the flood, then the earth's temperature would likewise be warmer and more uniform than it is today. This is because the sun's heat would be trapped between the earth and the canopy, allowing this heat to be distributed. This would also eliminate the deserts that parallel our equator, since the hot spots around the equator would be eliminated. It would also warm the poles up from the current freezing temperatures.

    WATER: Where did all the water come from and where did it go? One plausible explanation is that the earth's water was in the oceans, which was a single deep reservoir. As the plates began to shift, this reservoir became shallower, forcing the water up over the land. As the plates shifted further, new deep reservoirs formed, allowing the waters to flow back off the land.

    ANALYSIS

    CANOPY: We do find that the early planetary environment was tropical around the globe. Ferns and dinosaurs have even been found in the continent of Antarctica. So the evidence seems to support the canopy theory.

    RISING WATERS: If the land had been covered in 2020 feet of water, then we would expect to find numerous fossils in sedimentary rock, since this rock is formed in watery conditions. We expect the larger animals could travel faster and further, so these animals would more likely survive longer as they could get to high ground. Likewise, animals that typically roam about in large herds would also be more likely to get to high ground as some of these herds would necessarily be near every high ground. Large carnivores would tend to survive longer because herbivores would try to avoid them when possible. Smaller animals and animals that were loners would be trapped by the rising waters near where they lived. Once trapped, their bodies would float for a while and remain dispersed. Eventually, the animals that made it to higher ground would eventually drown as the waters continued to rise. However, since they are now localized, dispersal would be limited. Scientists find that large dinosaurs are frequently in large disparate groups (both carnivores and herbivores) in sedimentary rocks. In Dinosaur National Monument (Colorado), more than 40 individual allosaurus fossils are grouped in one flood pool. While this species is the predominate species, herbivores are also present in this layer. Even with major drownings, like the African Wildebeest migration, disparate group fossilization does not occur. So the evidence seems to indicate a worldwide flood.

    RECEDING WATERS: Once the water covered all the land, ocean going animals would migrate to this flooded land, since their original territory would be too deep to inhabit. If this happened, we would expect to find ocean going creatures in areas that were once land. Scientists have found whale fossils on top of Mt Everest, along with shells and fish fossils almost everywhere around the globe. Fish don't normally fossilize since the conditions necessary for fossilization do not usually occur – trapped on land and covered with sediment. It is unlikely that fish will fossilize in water, since the water would encourage decay.

    Thirty-seven individuals from the shonisaurus popularis, of the ichthyosaur genus a marine reptile, were trapped above 7,000 feet in Nevada. The theorized in-land sea of North America didn't extend to this area, so how did they get there? Why did all 37 of them die in the same area and same approximate time? These are questions that puzzle today's scientists. This evidence could be explained by a worldwide flood, so it also seems to indicate a worldwide flood.

    CONCLUSION

    Based upon the above evidence, the Biblical Worldwide Flood is plausible.

    Again, I apologize for the long post

    February 8, 2013 at 12:06 pm |
    • Billy

      Ah ha ha ha ha ha, About as plausible as June bug gaining entry into my butt. I don't suppose you want to explain how the giant turtles got back to the Galapagos.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
    • Sing a Rainbow

      California has a "worldwide flood" every 150 to 200 years.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • Chuckles

      I think my favorite part about this post is that it starts off talking about wanting to use scientific method and then goes on to focuse exclusively on biblical accounts... priceless

      February 8, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Delusion.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Tommy

      Instead of apologizing for the length of your post you should apologize for the amount of stupidity it contains.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Chuckles : I think my favorite part about this post is that it starts off talking about wanting to use scientific method and then goes on to focuse exclusively on biblical accounts

      I understand that your apriori beliefs hinder your ability to be objective.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Damocles

      1) Nothing in those passages comes close to descibing Pangea.
      2) If the ocean was a single deep resevoir, the motion of the plates would not make it shallower or deeper. A boat in movement in a bathtub does not make the concentration of water any more or less.
      3) This ties in with 2: First you say as the land moved the resevoir got shallow, but then got deeper as it continued to move? Makes no sense.
      4) Yes, the world had a more tropical climate back in the day. If it had been like the cloud cover on Venus, there would have been little chance of any water forming. So what you are grasping at is a canopy thick and deep enough for a whole lot of rain, but just not thick enough to cause no water to form. A delicate balancing act to be sure.
      5) Again this ties in with 2: If the new deep resevoirs were made as the land continued to shift, it still doesn't account for where the water went. Unless you are willing to state something along the lines of 'the earth's core is now made of water'.
      6) No matter how you slice it, the story involves a deity killing a whole bunch of innocent animals and people. Not a contender for Good Guy of the Year.
      7) Inbreeding and in-cest on a grand scale.
      8) Meat eating animals would not survive for very long if their prey were constantly avoiding them.
      9) Water finds a way. I can't imagine a whole heaping glob of underground water sitting patiently in some dome awaiting to be released.
      10) While the Himalayas had probably not reached the lofty heights they enjoy today, I kinda have to think it still would have taken more than 2000 feet of water to cover them completely.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Tommy

      My favorite part is that Noah was 600 years old when the flood started.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Tommy : Instead of apologizing for the length of your post you should apologize for the amount of stupidity it contains.

      I understand that your apriori beliefs causes you to think that all contrary views are stupid.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • Tommy

      NO, just completely absurd beliefs with no evidence to back them up.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • Damocles

      And I'm not sure if your use of the word apriori is entirely correct.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Really-O?

      "To accomplish this, we will need to determine what empirical evidence would indicate that a worldwide flood had occurred."

      ...meanwhile ignoring the overwhelming body of disconfirming evidence.

      Again...delusion.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      That is quite a posting with a lot of claims and assumptions. While it is difficult to address it thoroughly, here are some starting points.

      "In order to be objective about this disputatious issue, we'll follow the scientific method to minimize the impact of apriori beliefs. To accomplish this, we will need to determine what empirical evidence would indicate that a worldwide flood had occurred. But, before we can do this, we need to determine the background just prior to the presumed worldwide flood."

      How can you claim to follow the scientific method, if you claim the apriori descriptions in the Bible as the background conditions?

      "Using these passages, we find a unified earth as a single continent which had mountains, similar to evolution's Pangea."

      How is this found in "these passages"?

      How does this explain the radiometric evidence of the ages of various rock layers?

      How does this explain the progression of fossils in the geologic record? In other words, there is a progession of life, from ancestor to descendent, that is evident in the fossil record that wouldn't seem explainable by the simple concept of excaping the flood. For example, plants don't move and yet there is a progression in plant life. For example, mammals live in the water, i.e. whales, dolphins, etc, but they are not found in the early layers with other fish. Etc., Etc, ...

      How does this explain the biogeography (geographic distribution) of life on the planet? For example, why are there marsupials in Australia and the Americas, but not in Asia, Africa, or Europe? Likewise, penguins, polar bears, etc.

      More later, if time permits...

      February 8, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Freeman

      Total fail. You are mistaking paleontological water levels, which persisted for millions of years, for the short-term Biblical flood. Your list of species found on dinosaur and other long extinct species on mountaintops would have had to be included in the Ark, but weren't. The speed of the rising water would have washed the carcasses off the mountaintops and spread them around the planet, just as happens in all floods – bodies do not stop where they are drowned, but go to where the water flow takes them.

      There is no source of water in the earth or atmosphere that could cover all the mountains, and there is no scientific evidence that it has ever happened.

      You are just pulling bogus pseudo-facts out of your ass and putting them together wrong. You clearly have no degree in science, nor is there any sign you have even been to college. Your logic is terrible.

      Stunning fail, buddy!

      February 8, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      Damocles: 8) Meat eating animals would not survive for very long if their prey were constantly avoiding them.

      Let's not forget that after 150 days of flooding, plant-based matter would have pretty much have decayed 100%. So the ominvores and non-predatory animals would be similarly scr*ewed.

      This "account" of how the worldwide flood is possible is actually quite funny! live4him, why don't you just give it up and pretend it was localized like most Christians do?

      February 8, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • fred

      The flood story served its purpose onto God 3,400 years ago as it does to this very day. Jesus the full reflection of the Glory of God spoke in parables so that those who were seeking found exactly what their hearts needed to hear. The flood story follows that pattern and contains within it a wealth of wisdom concerning God and his relation to believers and non believers.
      One small segment is the voice of the serpent which atheists hear and they are deceived into the age old pride of man revealed at the foot of the tree of knowledge. Not much ever changes with the truths God has revealed about His thoughts and ways. Man continues to fall for the same trick thinking that his knowledge will provide outside of the presence of God.

      Accordingly, science supports the truth that the flood story is not possible given known facts that are limited to the mind and ways of man. The flood story is valid and does represent reality but, not within the limited baryonic matter and physical properties of that matter.

      God needs no defense as God is self sufficient, it is man that needs God and is dependent upon God.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • ME II

      "While it is difficult to address it thoroughly, [in this forum]..."

      February 8, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Live4Him

      Wait a second, you're saying I'm not being objective because I pointed out that your entire basis hinges on biblical accounts? Oh dear....

      February 8, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Billy

      Tommy (about Noan being 600 years old). Yeah that was before the old lady in Africa – then you were supposed to multiply that by like 8.7. But then they discovered something much older and they said you were supposed to multiply by like 17 to make it all make sense. So I guess Noah lived like 10,200 years before or something like that.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • Damocles

      @fred

      Yes, I can see where you would be dependent on your deity, much like you would be dependent on a psycho to not pull the trigger.

      Please don't kill me and inflict cancer on my loved ones Mr Deity, I'll worship you, I promise.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "evolution's Pangea"

      What?

      February 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Right. Bend the facts to suit your own a priori conclusions of mythical floods, and then accuse others of not being objective. Your sophistry skills are slipping, Stupid4Him.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      How does one apply the scientific method to the actions of a being who has the power to break the laws of physics?

      February 8, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • Check

      WhenCowsAttack,

      "Damocles: 8) Meat eating animals would not survive for very long if their prey were constantly avoiding them.

      Let's not forget that after 150 days of flooding, plant-based matter would have pretty much have decayed 100%. So the ominvores and non-predatory animals would be similarly scr*ewed."

      I read one account from a book by a man who spent 6 years of his life (SIX YEARS!) fantasizing scenarios for this flood story. His answer to that one is that "God" changed the tastes and desires of all of the surviving animals so that they would want to eat the bloated, decaying bodies of all of the dead creatures lying around and thrived on them until the predator/prey ratio stabilized!

      February 8, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Freeman

      fred translated: "I believe in magic. When you believe in magic, there is nothing too absurd and idiotic to not be possible."

      February 8, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Damocles

      @check

      Now that's just adding insult to injury.

      The deity: Hey fellas, not only am I going to kill just about all of you, I'm going to make you crave the bloated flesh of the dead, because, well you know, I just love you so damn much.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • fred

      Damocles
      “Please don't kill me and inflict cancer on my loved ones Mr Deity, I'll worship you, I promise.”
      =>See there you missed some important truths that rise high above the flood waters. God is not transcendent such that distance above man can be measured by the rule of man. God’s transcendence is infinite and eternal in space and time. To think that the dependence I spoke was of a human psychological need reflects just how far removed you and I are from the truth of God.
      The truth of God is in the unity of the presence of God. This is not dependency, fear or insecurity by any stretch of the imagination. The relationship is more akin to fish and water. In the flood story God was in the flood and the ark which lifted the chosen to life eternal.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Damocles

      @fred

      Oh so your deity was the flood that killed everyone and everything? Did he chuff all the baby pandas under the chin and say 'damn ya'll are cute..... oh well' BOOM! FLOOD! Dead cute baby pandas.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Damocles : Nothing in those passages comes close to descibing Pangea.

      Was Pangea a unified continent that later separated? Yes.

      @Damocles : If the ocean was a single deep resevoir, the motion of the plates would not make it shallower or deeper.

      If two plates are pushed together, they will create a V-shaped basin in between, which could hold water. As the pressure pushing the plates together is relieved, this deep V will transition to a shallow V and then into a flat line.

      @Damocles : as the land moved the resevoir got shallow, but then got deeper as it continued to move? Makes no sense.

      I hope this works, because my atistic ability with computer fonts is limited. But, imagine the three scenarios below represent the circumfernce of the earth. If you can visualize this, while imagining each line as a plate, then you will get the gist of what I mean.

      Before

      -- -^------–^---
      \ /
      \ /
      \___/

      During
      -- -^------–^---
      \_____/

      After:
      /\
      ___ ___/\__ _/ \____
      \_____/ \_______/

      @Damocles : If it had been like the cloud cover on Venus, there would have been little chance of any water forming. So what you are grasping at is a canopy thick and deep enough for a whole lot of rain, but just not thick enough to cause no water to form.

      No, I'm talking about a cloud cover just a little bit more dense than we currently have. All it needs to hold is 40 days of rain, but not necessarily a downpour.

      @Damocles : No matter how you slice it, the story involves a deity killing a whole bunch of innocent animals and people.

      What's more important – 90 years on earth or an infinite number of years in heaven?

      @Damocles : Meat eating animals would not survive for very long if their prey were constantly avoiding them.

      Just as it happens today.

      @Damocles : While the Himalayas had probably not reached the lofty heights they enjoy today

      Again, go back to my rudimentary drawing. There were no Himalayas, only small mountain ranges. The Himalayas developed after the flood.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "evolution's Pangea" ?
      Evolution = biology
      Continental drift = geology

      Barring magic, it is impossible for the hypothetical pangea to break into 7 continents in only 4 generations.
      Tectonic plates cannot move that quickly. If they did, the entire planet would be torn apart.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      My advice to you, Stupid4Him, is to seek psychiatric help immediately.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Tommy

      4 thousand years ago the continental plates were in pretty much the same place they are today.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      So what of the other supercontinents that formed before Pangea? Did they all form and break up in the few thousand years before the flood, or are you not even going to try to bend that part of geology to fit into your mythical world view?

      February 8, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Live4Him

      Lets try this drawing. I had to add some ~ to get HTML to leave the proper spacing, so you need to remove them mentally.

      Before

      -- ~~~~~~ -^------–^---
      ~~ \~~~~~ /
      ~ ~ \~~~ ~ /
      ~~~ \___/

      During
      -- ~~~~~~ -^------–^---
      . . . .\_____/

      After:
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /\
      ___ ~~~~~ ___/\__ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ _/ ~ \____
      . . ..\_____/ \_______/

      February 8, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Live4Him

      One more time.

      Before

      -- ~~~~~~ -^------–^---
      ~~ \~~~~~ /
      ~ ~ \~~~ ~ /
      ~~~ \___/

      During
      -- ~~~~~~ -^------–^---
      . . . .\_____/

      After:
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /\
      ___ ~~~~~ ___/\__ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ _/ ~ \____
      . . ..\_____/ ~~~~~~ \_______/

      February 8, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • fred

      Freeman
      “fred translated: "I believe in magic.”

      =>No, the Pharaoh used magicians and magic to turn their staffs into snakes. The staff of Moses ate the other snakes. All the gods and magic of Pharaoh could not affect the reality of God who is. The Sanhedrin demanded Jesus perform miracles and he said none will be given you but the sign of Jonah.

      magic tricks are typically demonic or of man in the Bible

      February 8, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • Damocles

      1) Study plate techtonics. And I mean Study. Hard.
      2) Your passages mention nothing about a unified continent. They meander from two lights in the sky, to Noah being 600 years old, to the flood.
      3) However many years of life I have on this planet, basking in the love of friends and family, will always be my most treasured memories right up until I die. And what do you offer? Ohhh a murdering deity. Uh-huh.
      4) Oh, suddenly there are no Himalayas because, you know, that wouldn't make any sense.
      5) Even if you believe that plates shifting give rise to ridiculous amounts of previously unseen water, it still argues a natural cause of a flood, not a deity.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • Tommy

      In order for any of what Live4Him says to be true we first have to ignore over 100 years worth of science.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @lunchbreaker : How does one apply the scientific method to the actions of a being who has the power to break the laws of physics?

      You cannot apply it to God, but you CAN apply it to the historical evidence. This is done often in archeology.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • Damocles

      @fred

      Sooo... you don't believe in magic, but think the Pharoh's used magic to turn sticks into snakes.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Damocles : Study plate techtonics. And I mean Study. Hard.

      I'm sure that you're capable of showing me any errors if I make them, right?

      @Damocles : 2) Your passages mention nothing about a unified continent.

      Check out 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; A division means that it was whole previously.

      @Damocles : Oh, suddenly there are no Himalayas because, you know, that wouldn't make any sense.

      You have trouble visualizing anything other than what we currently have?

      @Damocles : 5) Even if you believe that plates shifting give rise to ridiculous amounts of previously unseen water, it still argues a natural cause of a flood, not a deity.

      That's a possibility. All I'm trying to prove this week is that a worldwide flood is plausible.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "If two plates are pushed together, they will create a V-shaped basin in between, which could hold water."

      Can you just say you hate modern geology and be done with it? You're embarrassing yourself.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Check : Let's not forget that after 150 days of flooding, plant-based matter would have pretty much have decayed 100%. So the ominvores and non-predatory animals would be similarly scr*ewed."

      Plants (i.e. seeds) are quite hardy and could survive this period. Yes, most of the plants would die, but most of the herbivores were dead too. And the plants had 6-months to recover after the flood while the herbivores were in the ark.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • fred

      Damocles
      “Oh so your deity was the flood that killed everyone”
      =>As with math one must master some basics before moving on. There are only possibilities that exist which are being in the presence of God and being outside the presence of God. That which is outside the presence of God does not have life eternal. Everything is already dead no one killed anyone. The basic problem is that you probably reject or do not fully understand the magnitude of eternity. God as eternal is presenting a picture Moses has the capacity to relate with. Noah is safe in the presence of God with life eternal protected above the flood waters (certain death) that wash away everything outside of God.
      Simple enough so a caveman can understand it. Get the picture? The flood story was written in a very picturesque symbolic language style intended to be passed over time by oral tradition then finally into written form.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      "All I'm trying to prove this week is that a worldwide flood is plausible."
      And you are failing spectacularly.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : So what of the other supercontinents that formed before Pangea? Did they all form and break up in the few thousand years before the flood, or are you not even going to try to bend that part of geology to fit into your mythical world view?

      You seem to have trouble comprehending the difference between evidence and theory. The only evidence we see today is what can be seen today. We don't have a time machine to take us back into history. So, there isn't evidence of any supercontinents before Pangea. All we can look at is the seven continents that we see today and PRESUME that they were connected because of TODAY'S evidence. And some will try to visuallize what it was like before Pangea, but it lacks evidence.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Damocles

      1) When plates collide they will either push up mountains or form a trench. Yes, a trench is V shaped, I'll give you that, buuuut, trenches are usually areas where water would have an incredibly hard time bubbling to the surface. Now, if you wanted to say the flood was caused by liquid, hot magma, I might be able to get behind you a bit.
      2) Yes, yes, another biblical passage that can be interpreted as any jackwagon cares to. 'The earth was divided'. By what? Politics? Religion? Lefties and Righties? No, no, I'm going to say that fits with my 'the bible is most definitely talking about Pangea, here' interpretation.
      3) Nope, absolutely no problems visualizing what came before. Do you have a problem with the fact that the Himalayas would still have been extremely massive during this time? Of course you do, because it doesn't fit your 'facts'.
      4) Worldwide flood still isn't plausible.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Damocles

      Trying to get fred to ever give a straight answer that's on topic is impossible. His complete lack of integrity, his contempt for logical discussion, and his willingness to spout out whatever lie is necessary for his god is the hallmark of where the religion came from. A bunch of immoral roving band of thugs conquering everything around them with their "believe or else" bullshit.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : Can you just say you hate modern geology and be done with it? You're embarrassing yourself.

      "Can you just say you don't understand modern geology, else you would point out the flaws with empirical evidence? You're embarrassing yourself."

      February 8, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      The same can be said of Lie4Him.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Damocles

      @hawaii

      I know, it's like a trainwreck though. I just can't. look. away.

      @fred

      Oh so now everyone is dead so no one really died. The kid was already abused so no parent ever abused him or her. The ra-pee was already ra-ped so no one really ra-ped him or her. I have no problems, nor reject, the possibility of eternity. You, however, would be wise to consider exactly what an eternal deity would mean. I know you won't because it would be like asking your average turnip to do calculus, but I can dream.

      February 8, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • Billy

      If Live4Him really wanted to defend their silly story, they wouldn't be ignoring replies with good questions from people like hawaii and Doc Vestibule.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Check

      "His answer to that one is that "God" changed the tastes and desires of all of the surviving animals so that they would want to eat the bloated, decaying bodies of all of the dead creatures lying around and thrived on them until the predator/prey ratio stabilized!"

      Oh yeah, I forgot... they must have also eaten all the bones too, since there is NO evidence of a worldwide mass extinction of every living being - ever.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Damocles : trenches are usually areas where water would have an incredibly hard time bubbling to the surface.

      Ever hear of the Mariana Trench? It's full of water.

      @Damocles : 'The earth was divided'. By what? Politics? Religion? Lefties and Righties? No, no, I'm going to say that fits with my 'the bible is most definitely talking about Pangea, here' interpretation.

      How do you divide the earth (i.e. soil) with religion or politics? I realize that today's society abbreviates "the people of the land" to "the land", but that doesn't happen in scripture. Rather, people of the land are referred to as "the sea" (as in the Beast came out of the sea).

      @Damocles : Do you have a problem with the fact that the Himalayas would still have been extremely massive during this time?

      The Himalayas were caused by India breaking off of Pangea from the area today known as Africa and smashing into Asia. So, yes, I would have a problem because India cannot be both part of Pangea and separated from Pangea

      February 8, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • fred

      Damocles
      “Sooo... you don't believe in magic, but think the Pharoh's used magic to turn sticks into snakes.”
      =>I am not a theologian and I read about all their intelligent support for what the Hebrew and Greek words really intended to mean. Bottom line it does not matter. This was about where mans thinking is and where God is trying to take our thoughts. Moses was in Gods will and on his way to the Promised Land whereas the Pharaoh remained in Egypt (symbolic of our materialistic world and false gods).

      Personally, since there was significance to the number of staffs and form of plagues it was all talk and no action. In short sticks are sticks in our world.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • ME II

      Live4Him,
      "In order to be objective about this disputatious issue, we'll follow the scientific method to minimize the impact of apriori beliefs. To accomplish this, we will need to determine what empirical evidence would indicate that a worldwide flood had occurred. "

      What empirical evidence supports the "background" that you presented?

      "Check out 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; A division means that it was whole previously."

      "Among the descendants of Arphaxad, Eber's eldest son received the name of Peleg, because in his days the earth, i.e., the population of the earth, was divided, in consequence of the building of the tower of Babel (Genesis 11:8)."
      ( http://bible.cc/genesis/10-25.htm)

      February 8, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Billy : If Live4Him really wanted to defend their silly story, they wouldn't be ignoring replies with good questions from people like hawaii and Doc Vestibule.

      Again, I don't ignore rational posts. However, I can be inundated with silly posts like this one. When I get too many, I answer the first one that is addressed to me that I see – unless it is just an ad hominem.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • Bob

      Yeah, fred, now you're presenting your god as the jerk that he would be if he existed, again. No thanks. Keep your sky fairy tales to yourself. This time, he's stealing our thoughts. Uh huh. Seriously, how anyone can believe the supersti-tious nonsense in the bible is amazing. The conflicts between the absurd Christian babble and science are well documented, just to look at one aspect. Here are just a few examples, of thousands:

      The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

      God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

      God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

      Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

      God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11

      In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

      God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

      "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

      "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

      In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24

      God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26

      God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28

      "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."
      Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29

      All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas – all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

      "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31

      In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

      Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7

      God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
      Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

      God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before – by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

      Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18

      Go here for more:
      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

      February 8, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Damocles

      1) Yes, I've heard of the trench. It is formed from a few plates colliding..... under the water. It's not 'oh, great resevoirs of water are bubbling up from the trench'. It's. Under. The. Water.
      2) People of the LAND are referred to as people from the SEA. I don't know what to make of this.
      3) So after the flood, Pangea split off, India broke off from Africa and smashed into Asia, the continents then achieved their current spatial locations in, what, 1000 years? If I were you, I'd present your evidence to the geological society with all due haste.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @ Stupid4Him Look up the types of tectonic plate interactions. V-shapes would not form for long because the tension at the interaction points would be far too great. Subduction or obduction would occur almost immediately to relieve the tension. Even high school earth science students would know this. And where is the empirical evidence you claim to have presented?

      Theory and evidence are not rungs on some ladder of veracity.The difference between evidence and theory is that theory EXPLAINS the evidence. The EVIDENCE leads us to conclude that other supercontinents DID form before Pangea. See, here in the real world, we don't form baseless conclusions and try to bend the facts to suit them like you're doing with biblical myths. We let the evidence take us where it may. So that drivel you've posted there is not valid.

      Read some good books on critical thinking, epistemology, evolution and geology. Stop prowling around creationists websites all day and copy-and-pasting creationist propaganda onto this blog. You're embarrassing yourself.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Damocles

      @fred

      Considering your whole belief system relies on magic (note the warp speed in which the continents would have to move and collide for l4h's thoughts to have any meaning), I'd wager you better become a believer in magic right quick.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @ME II : What empirical evidence supports the "background" that you presented?

      What't the definition of 'empirical'?

      @ME II : "Among the descendants of Arphaxad, Eber's eldest son received the name of Peleg, because in his days the earth, i.e., the population of the earth, was divided, in consequence of the building of the tower of Babel (Genesis 11:8)."

      That is your interpretation, but it isn't supported by the literal words of the text. The Hebrew word used is "’erets { eh’-rets}" which is also used in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (’erets)." This passage cannot be interpreted as "people" as man wasn't created until the sixth day. So, it means the land.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      I find it interesting that you say you will answer a rational post when this happened above:

      "Live4Him

      @Chuckles : I think my favorite part about this post is that it starts off talking about wanting to use scientific method and then goes on to focuse exclusively on biblical accounts

      I understand that your apriori beliefs hinder your ability to be objective."

      So I'll ask. Why didn't you address this point? It was rational, and accurate. What a-priori (is this going to be your new favorite copout?) beliefs are you talking about? Wanting actual evidence? Because I'm pretty sure everyone that's been posting responses to you and fred would be happy to take ownership of wanting actual evidence.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Damocles : It's not 'oh, great resevoirs of water are bubbling up from the trench'. It's. Under. The. Water.

      And what would happen to that water if plate techtonics caused the trench to get shallower?

      @Damocles : So after the flood, Pangea split off, India broke off from Africa and smashed into Asia, the continents then achieved their current spatial locations in, what, 1000 years?

      The timeline since the flood is almost 4,000 years.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Damocles

      @l4h

      So the only interpretation of biblical passages that is correct is..... yours?

      February 8, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Chad/Lie4Him wrote, "Yes, most of the plants would die, but most of the herbivores were dead too. And the plants had 6-months to recover after the flood while the herbivores were in the ark."

      Um, no. Remember, youe god killed everything. And plant material was buried under hundreds of meters of mud and detritus, and u der miles of brackish water. The earth would have been a blank slate. Evolution would have to start over. All new ecological niches. And as we all know, a species is based on those it descends from. The odds of life re-evolving to be anything like it was before your god went nuts are zero. None of the species that were on the ark, including humans, would have survived. Way too little genetic diversity. Plus there was no food. And to be honest, there wouldn't have been muchnof an atmosphere left. What happens when you raise sealevel to 30,000 feet? The majority of our atmosphere would have boiled off into space.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "What't the definition of 'empirical'?"
      As opposed to a priori, which is how you used it. Empirical evidence is usually meant as evidence gain by observation or experimentation.

      "That is your interpretation,..."
      No, not mine. The link provided refers to "Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament" but is also similar to the interpretations of:
      "Geneva Study Bible"
      "Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible"
      "Clarke's Commentary on the Bible"
      and others.

      "Peleg is remarkable on account of the origin assigned to his name. "In his days was the land divided." Here two questions occur. What is the meaning of the earth being divided, and what is the time denoted by "his days?" The verb "divide" (פלג pālag) occurs only three times elsewhere in the Hebrew scriptures 1 Chronicles 1:19; Job 38:25; Psalm 55:10. The connection in which this rare word is used in the Psalm, "divide their tongues," seems to determine its reference in the present passage to the confusion of tongues and consequent dispersion of mankind recorded in the following chapter. This affords a probable answer to our first question. The land was in his days divided among the representative heads of the various nations."
      ("Barnes' Notes on the Bible" as quoted by http://bible.cc/genesis/10-25.htm)

      February 8, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • Damocles

      @l4h

      Ohhhh.... 4000 years. Yeah, ok, that makes it all fit. And the reason we see such slow movements of the continents now is..... why, exactly?

      The plates themselves can't really cause the trench to get shallower because of the way trenches work, which is basically a recycling of the earth's crust.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      ps apparently "erets" is also translated as "land", as in 'the land divided among ...'
      ( http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/776.htm )

      February 8, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • FACTOID, revealer of little known facts!

      Isaac Vail (1840 –1912) first proposed the canopy theory in 1874.1 He believed a canopy formed millions of years ago as the earth evolved from a molten state. Vail supported his case primarily by ancient Babylonian mythology.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • fred

      Damocles
      A turnip appears to fall of the back of a truck at a given rate only outside of lowest nonvanishing order in φ/c^2 . This is where your calculus falls short from an eternal perspective. In other words the turnip never fell off the truck because past, present and future are collapsed and expanded in the same relative time space continuum.

      That should help address your dilemma with “Oh so now everyone is dead so no one really died. “

      As to the kid being abused down the street you now approach events from a sequential time line. Combining that with eternity presents the same problem as we currently face with unified field theory. God simplified this for us when he said my ways are not your ways and my time is not your time. This is also why the Bible reveals the loop of existence from the Alpha to the Omega. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. In the end God will create a new heaven and earth and wipe away every tear.
      If God wipes away every tear the abuse did occur in our time line but from an eternal perspective it was wiped away with the flood (i.e. good and evil are separated where good remains in God and all else is non- existent to the eternal)

      February 8, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @hawaiiguest : Why didn't you address this point? It was rational, and accurate.

      No, it wasn't. Only a fool will claim they cannot observe the Bible. Are you advancing such a posit?

      @hawaiiguest : What a-priori (is this going to be your new favorite copout?) beliefs are you talking about?

      Apriori means conceived before the evidence is known. One such example is the belief that the Bible is not empricial evidence. One can CLEARLY see the Bible – so it is empirical evidence. What is coming into play is the apriori belief that the Bible is unreliable. I state that it is apriori because no evidence has been presented to discredit the Biblical account discussed. Instead, it is "logic" that drives this belief – where logic is form from apriori beliefs.

      @hawaiiguest : Wanting actual evidence?

      Why is it that you always ask for actual evidence but NEVER present such yourself? Instead, you present your opinions while claiming that everyone agrees (i.e. Appeal to Popularity), the experts agree (i.e. Appeal to Authority), or claim that I'm stupid (i.e. ad hominem). Meanwhile, I present actual evidence time and time again, including:

      1) Quotes from the Bible
      2) Ferns and dinosaurs have even been found in the continent of Antarctica.
      3) Scientists find that large dinosaurs are frequently in large disparate groups (both carnivores and herbivores) in sedimentary rocks.
      4) In Dinosaur National Monument (Colorado), more than 40 individual allosaurus fossils are grouped in one flood pool.
      5) Even with major drownings, like the African Wildebeest migration, disparate group fossilization does not occur.
      6) Scientists have found whale fossils on top of Mt Everest, along with shells and fish fossils almost everywhere around the globe.
      7) Fish don't normally fossilize since the conditions necessary for fossilization do not usually occur – trapped on land and covered with sediment. It is unlikely that fish will fossilize in water, since the water would encourage decay.
      8) Thirty-seven individuals from the shonisaurus popularis, of the ichthyosaur genus a marine reptile, were trapped above 7,000 feet in Nevada.

      The problem is that people want to ignore any evidence that is contrary to their apriori beliefs, so you never saw these as 'actual evidence'.

      BTW – I'm heading out for a bit.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • alias

      It hurts to type this. However, if you did move the land around as LH sort of suggests, aka turn the planet into a smooth ball – it would be covered with water.
      Now, the animals would not have fit on the arc, they would have starved when released, so would Noah's family and i just don't see where all the other religions would have come from, or how people would have developed different physical characteristics, etc., etc, BUT if you smoothed out all the land it would all be very wet.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "One such example is the belief that the Bible is not empricial evidence. One can CLEARLY see the Bible – so it is empirical evidence"

      Just because the description ( the Bible) is visible and observable does not mean that what it describes was observed.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • fred

      Bob
      The web is full of apologetics that address your list of prescribed Dawkins conflicts. We have gone over these to no avail. It is possible some of these apologetics get it wrong but I certainly do not have the skills or time to figure it out. I am working the Bible from the big picture that reveals Gods plan. I see no fault with the plan and not one single person has offered a better plan.
      Even atheists have thrown their hands in the air and just march along with naturalism like the evolved organic matter we are.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
    • ¿¿lol

      Then there are the early Xtian apologists who claimed that the gospels were not plagiarism at all (looking so much like earlier pagan stories); they claimed the earlier stories were false and a pre-emptive strike by Satan – written in advance of the true stories to confuse. LOL.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
    • Science

      To 4him FACT

      Earth’s timeline older than 4000 years old

      Trace our planet's geological and biological ages

      Interactive Fun

      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33184839/ns/technology_and_science/

      February 8, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • sam

      So where is the layer of people and animals that all died in the flood? Did they magically go 'away' with the water? We should be able to dig down and find all these people and animals!

      LOL

      February 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Lie4Him

      Empirical does not mean "Oh look here's an old book that says something. EVIDENCE!". That's not how things work.

      "2) Ferns and dinosaurs have even been found in the continent of Antarctica."
      So what?

      "3) Scientists find that large dinosaurs are frequently in large disparate groups (both carnivores and herbivores) in sedimentary rocks."
      Sources for this?

      "4) In Dinosaur National Monument (Colorado), more than 40 individual allosaurus fossils are grouped in one flood pool."
      Didn't find anything corroborating that, so you'd need to provide your sources for that.

      "5) Even with major drownings, like the African Wildebeest migration, disparate group fossilization does not occur."
      Didn't you just say 2 points ago that scientists find large dinosaurs frequently in large disparate groups? So which is it?

      "6) Scientists have found whale fossils on top of Mt Everest, along with shells and fish fossils almost everywhere around the globe."
      And the age of these fossils would be? Do you really think Everest was always where it is? This proves nothing but your willingness to not give full information.

      "7) Fish don't normally fossilize since the conditions necessary for fossilization do not usually occur – trapped on land and covered with sediment. It is unlikely that fish will fossilize in water, since the water would encourage decay."
      Trapped on land is not a condition for fossilization, and "decay" has nothing to do with it.

      "8) Thirty-seven individuals from the shonisaurus popularis, of the ichthyosaur genus a marine reptile, were trapped above 7,000 feet in Nevada."
      Sources, and so what?

      February 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • fred

      ¿¿lol
      That would be same as philosophical naturalism apologists that make up stories in advance to justify their extension of the theory of evolution into a world view of reason for existence.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
    • sam

      6) Scientists have found whale fossils on top of Mt Everest, along with shells and fish fossils almost everywhere around the globe.

      Honestly?? You still don't understand that many mountains were once seafloor? Really?

      February 8, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Lie4Him

      Oh BTW.

      "Only a fool will claim they cannot observe the Bible."
      Only a fool would claim because something is written down it is evidence by itself. Are you advancing this thought?

      February 8, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • sam

      Live4, you're hurting my brain with your craziness. Can't imagine what yours feels like.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • ¿¿lol

      the illogical gymnastics that fred exhibits when trying to support his fables is remarkable. lol.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:20 pm |
    • fred

      ¿¿lol
      Would that be a 10.0 or 9.9 from the Canadian judge?

      February 8, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
    • Tommy

      Sam, don't tell him that. He will just use it as proof of a global flood.

      February 8, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      So because you can see the bible, it stands as empirical evidence for its contents?

      Wow. Wooooooooooooow.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      It is well known that Antarctica had a warmer climate in the past. The reason for that is that the continent was not always centered on the south pole. That has nothing to do with a worldwide flood.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
    • Yes...

      "So because you can see the bible, it stands as empirical evidence for its contents?"

      Yes....when she made this arugument, it made me laugh. Weak.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @hawaiiguest : Empirical does not mean "Oh look here's an old book that says something. EVIDENCE!".

      Why not?

      @hawaiiguest : So what?

      So, you acknowledge that I present actual facts and you are always questioning. You don't have evidence yourself.

      February 8, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      Because the mere fact that something is written does not make it true! Do you believe what the Baghavad Gita says? The Koran? How about Harry Potter, do you believe that? NO you don't! That's why something written isn't empirical evidence you disingenuous tard!

      As for your other idiocy, you only look at a single answer to one point, and pretend that it applies to the whole 8 points you put? Dishonest bullshit seems to be your speciality. How about you actually point to what I said to all your points, and respond in kind. Or are you too much of a cowardly, dishonest pile of shit that you can't even manage that?

      February 8, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • End Religion

      @damocles: "The plates themselves can't really cause the trench to get shallower because of the way trenches work, which is basically a recycling of the earth's crust."

      I kinda prefer Chad's vision of the earth as covered by some for of satin plus Stretch Armstrong material. Push it together and it wrinkles up, pull on it and stretches back out flat. What a hoot!

      February 8, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
    • End Religion

      whales on everest: http://carumbasblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/marine-fossils-on-mountains-do-not.html

      February 8, 2013 at 6:53 pm |
    • Damocles

      @fred

      You really are having a problem wih eternity. In an eternal state, the abuse, the deaths, would be beginning, ending and never happening all at once. Same issue with an eternal deity. It would be there, not there, making, destroying all at once. It would be eternal rage, love, hate, joy, wishy-washy, forthright, honesty, lying, gay, straight etc etc. It couldn't make you fast enough or destroy you quickly enough to satisfy itself. An eternal being wouldn't give a thought to creating anything because it has all the time to think about creating something.

      February 8, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
    • fred

      Damocles
      No, the subset of our universe is not eternal it is fixed and sequential in terms of space and time. Only that which is taken up into the eternal has unity. That which is taken up was part of eternity to begin with. The abuse, rage etc. does not continue it is fixed in time and space unless further acted upon by an outside force.
      God eternal as defined is perfect purity and holiness which cannot contradict itself thus that which is not of God is never joined with God eternal. This is perhaps why Jesus said only that which is in Christ can be one with the Father.

      February 8, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
  18. alias

    Do you devout Christians believe that if you had been bormn into a Muslim household you would very probably be worshipping Alah?
    If you had been born to atheist parents you would very likely be thinking about religion and probalby not accept the bible?

    Most of you are only Christians because you were told to believe from a very young age and you find comfort in those beliefs?

    February 8, 2013 at 11:11 am |
    • Sing a Rainbow

      The problem alias, is that for all religions / cults, the indoctrination in multi-layered and includes many defenses. It takes many years to create a believer so for the few who see the light it also takes a long time.

      Additionally, I don't feel we can lump all believers together. Some are far more destructive than others and Eastern Mysticism understands it's mythology and the point of mythology. A point that is been lost in the West and certainly lost on Christians and Muslims.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
  19. S.S.D.D

    sigh

    February 8, 2013 at 8:54 am |
  20. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Pray without ceasing
    Prayer changes things

    February 8, 2013 at 7:07 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      February 8, 2013 at 8:07 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Cap'n Truth Be a Prayer-Bot
      When, oh when will you tire of polluting every article with your redundant tripe?

      February 8, 2013 at 8:58 am |
    • meifumado

      Do not waste your time praying.
      Prayer changes nothing.

      February 8, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • Prayer changes rings

      Can prayer stop Mr. Unhealthy and other morons like Chad and fred from posting? Please pretty please.

      February 8, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.