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Christian protesters decry Muslim mob's arson spree following blasphemy charge
Pakistani Christians react after Muslim demonstrators destroyed the homes of members of the Christian community.
March 10th, 2013
10:51 AM ET

Christian protesters decry Muslim mob's arson spree following blasphemy charge

From Nasir Habib, CNN

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) - Outraged Pakistani Christians took to the streets of Lahore on Sunday, protesting a rash of violence against their community over the weekend.

Demonstrators denounced the burning of more than 100 homes of Christians on Saturday - a spree spurred by allegations that a Christian man made remarks against the Muslim prophet Mohammed.

Some of the hundreds of protesters Sunday threw stones at police, saying the government failed to adequately protect Christians, Lahore senior police official Rai Tahir said.

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity

soundoff (1,072 Responses)
  1. Austin

    @Lol
    "For the stinkin' Dispensationalists and Rapturists that want to diss their born again birthright and follow Esau and the Herodian Dynasty by saying the Nation of Israel is God's chosen:"

    I thought the differences in end times prophecy interpretations were not reasons for Christians to divide as they do not conflict as ideas on the gospel, Christs deity and resurrection or the relationship to salvation.

    What do you believe the church will experience before the day of the Lord? I don't have a firm opinion yet.

    March 12, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • meifumado

      They wont experience anything, there is no day of the lord.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • Austin

      Lol, which Mellineal teaching do you favor? I am just wondering I am curious to figure out your comment about Esau, and dissing born again birthright.

      I think that Christ when He comes back will call spiritual Israel out of all the nations they disappeared in to during captivates and oppressions. I don't think that spiritual Israel relates to the nation state of Israel , unless God sees it that way. Maybe He doesn't.

      bit I think that the church is spiritual Israel also, and that God still has a purpose for His literal Israel people, probably including the descendants of ishmael who are blessed. I don't think anyone knows the definition of just who and where they are.

      Old testament kingdom prophecies says that God will redeem his people Egypt and Assyria ( I don't remember the exact nation stated) . The point is, when Christ returns we will see that His heart is generous .

      March 12, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • Austin

      @live4him

      Hey did you notice the only other place in the bible where 666 is stated, was the amount of tax gathered for Solomon?

      I wonder of that is trivial or not. Idk. Did you ever wonder about that?

      March 12, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
    • *

      Austin,

      I doubt that anyone will answer your "Mellineal" question until you learn how to spell the dang thing...

      March 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • clarity

      How many stables did Solomon have??? You'd better save all the straw you can.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • lol??

      Austin, you said,
      ".....bit I think that the church is spiritual Israel also,......" God is Spirit. The bride is Spirit. There is one bride. It's a great match. Two would be adultery. Israel is the name of the bride.

      "Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circu*mcision nor uncircu*mcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all."

      March 13, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • lol??

      Austin, you said,
      ".....What do you believe the church will experience before the day of the Lord?...."

      "Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."................. Leaven is always a bad thing. What do you see in the churches in regards to what Paul says here?:.........."Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

      March 13, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Austin

      Spiritual Israel , referring to the Jews,or ishmaelites for that matter, would be referring to a future promise and work to be fulfilled at His word.

      Spiritual Israel today could only refer to the saved, or church. In a future sense we refer to spiritual israel as to those who at that time will be saved and are already saved. For rapture believing people, it refers to those saved in the trib. Sounds like you understand that but the reason I ask, I
      Is because of all the verses in ezekiel or Isaiah that refer to the people who Come to truth and faith through out the entire lands of Israel before the kingdom was split and lost, the entire original plot where much or Israel's descendants were stranded. He says he revives these descendants. It seems to be a promise, or a belief that is not this double bride, rather a future work to be fulfilled. And so believing that God still has a plan and promise ther, isn't dissing the born again birth right.

      I don't know about the rapture, but I think God has a plan of salvation, a pouring out of the spirit on the world toward the end.

      March 13, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • Austin

      Lol,
      " leaven, and preaching another gospel".
      Ya that's a serious subject. I do not think eschatology is a gospel factor . That would be a difficult situation.

      What are some examples you see as leaven and different gospels, altering the actual gospel? Works based gospel? It's a good question. Thankfully we can trust God from our homes. I was also wondering before why you think that ti.theing is not what was intended for the church. Just interested. Not judgmental about anything just willing to learn and challenge myself.

      So in the millineal kingdom, they start sacrificing animals again. Do you understand this? From Ezekiel?

      March 13, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • lol??

      Did Paul ever preach ti*thing? Ti*thing became a law in the OT and that made it compulsory.

      "2Cr 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."...........I've heard of churches that seat people in the pews according to their current status in keeping their ti*the promises. Talk about peer pressure! That's creeping socialism.

      March 13, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • Chad

      @Austin "I thought the differences in end times prophecy interpretations were not reasons for Christians to divide as they do not conflict as ideas on the gospel, Christs deity and resurrection or the relationship to salvation."

      =>WELL SAID

      March 13, 2013 at 6:34 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      That idea doesn't seem to stop christians dividing over the issue, though.

      March 13, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
  2. Thoth

    Prophecies fulfilled are nothing more than subjective desire and coincidence.

    March 12, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • Live4Him

      This is an apriori conclusion.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
    • Thoth

      Yep, it is. As would be concluding the universe and all it's content was created by a god. Guess we are both guilty......

      March 12, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Thoth : Yep, it is. As would be concluding the universe and all it's content was created by a god.

      Not if the latter is based upon evidence, which it is for me.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
    • Tommy

      Everyone, do yourself a favor, and don't ask to see this evidence because it is not evidence of anything other than that fact that Live4Him is delusional.

      March 12, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • Austin

      Why there is confidence and resolve for faith

      The promise of the Holy Spirit, the seal of the spirit.

      New Testament
      In the Greek New Testament the word is most prominent in the Johannine writings. It appears in the Gospel of John (14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7) where it may be translated into English as "counselor", "helper", encourager, advocate, or "comforter".[8] The early church identified the Paraclete as the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5,1:8,2:4,2:38) and Christians continue to use Paraclete as a ti.tle for the Spirit of God. In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5 v. 4 Jesus Christ uses the verb παρακληθήσονται, paraclethesontai, traditionally interpreted to signify "to be refreshed, encouraged, or comforted". The text may also be translated as vocative as well as the traditional nominative.[9] Then the meaning of 'paraclethesontai', also informative of the meaning of the name, or noun Paraclete, implicates 'are going to summon' or 'will be breaking off'... The Paraclete may thus mean 'the summoner' or 'the one, who, or that which makes free'[10]
      In 1 John 2:1 "Paraclete" is used to describe the intercessory role of Jesus Christ who pleads to The Father on our behalf. And in John 14:16 Jesus says "another Paraclete" will come to help his disciples, implying Jesus is the first and primary Paraclete.
      In Matt 3:10-12 and Luke 3:9-17 John the Baptist says a powerful one coming after him "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (NIV)
      Verses like these are often used by Christians in Trinitarian theology to describe how God is revealed to the world and God's role in salvation. According to Trinitarian doctrine, the Paraclete or Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity who among other things provides guidance, consolation, strength, and support to people. Other ti.tles for the Holy Spirit include 'Spirit of Truth', Lightful Spirit of God Almighty, Holy Breath, Almighty Breath, Giver of Life, Lord of Grace, Helper, 'Comforter', 'Counselor' and 'Supporter'[citation needed].

      March 12, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "Not if the latter is based upon evidence, which it is for me.

      Evidence – Noun: The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

      "Available body of facts" seem to indicate that "evidence" would be something anyone would be able to see and accept as "fact".

      "Everyone is entltled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

      March 12, 2013 at 5:07 pm |
  3. Nii is a hero

    I love u all as myself. Yes you can love me as yourself. Just tell yourself that u love ur neighbor as yourself. Your mind will be at peace as you make it your dominant thought.

    March 12, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Nii

      Do us all a favor, and put a disclaimer in your posts if it's the same stupidity that you always spout off.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • meifumado

      You love everyone ? Even the guy who r.aped and killed your wife and children?

      Dude it's ok to hate sometimes.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
  4. Doc Vestibule

    VESTIBULARS
    The Stunning Prophecies of Doctor Humoladonne Q. Vestibule

    1) Suri Cruise will be named the 2nd coming of L. Ron Hubbard. From that point on, all photos of the child will prominently display dozens of ficti.tious military decorations.

    2) Kim Kardashian will adopt a 3rd world child and then discard it when it becomes too large to tote around in a handbag.

    3) Iran will breed a race of giant insects that breathe atomic fire. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will claim that they are "purely decorative".

    4) Capitalizing on the success of Botox, plastic surgeons will begin injecting clients with salmonella to promote weight loss. "Salmonex" booths will pop up in mall food courts all over America.

    5) President Obama will continue his communist campaign of terror against rich white people by collectivizing America’s golf courses.

    6) Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un will deliver a rousing, nationalistic oratory “gangnam style”. Troops in the capital square will robotically perform the dance in formation

    March 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Johnny

      I think #2 is the most likely to come true, however if I was a republican I would probably think that #5 has already happened.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • lol??

      AAAAhhh the spirits,

      I took my troubles down to Madame Rue
      You know that gypsy with the gold-capped tooth
      She's got a pad down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
      Sellin' little bottles of Love Potion Number Nine

      I told her that I was a flop with chics
      I've been this way since 1956
      She looked at my palm and she made a magic sign
      She said "What you need is Love Potion Number Nine"

      She bent down and turned around and gave me a wink
      She said "I'm gonna make it up right here in the sink"
      It smelled like turpentine, it looked like Indian ink
      I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink

      I didn't know if it was day or night
      I started kissin' everything in sight
      But when I kissed a cop down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
      He broke my little bottle of Love Potion Number Nine

      March 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Lol
      Not one of Sandra Bullock's best films, though AC/DC did an excellent cover of the song.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • meifumado

      I think with #2 she does not discard the kid, she gets married to him.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @meifumundo
      These prophecies are obviously rife with subtle metaphors and can be interpreted in several ways.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
  5. Live4Him

    This list is an atheist's criteria for determining a true prophecy. I don't have the reference for the book at this time.
    1) Must be clear and possess sufficient detail to make fulfillment by a wide number of events unlikely
    2) Event must be unusual
    3) Must be known before said fulfillment
    4) Cannot be an educated guess
    5) Event cannot be staged

    March 12, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Tommy

      For me to consider something a prophecy it must contain specifically who, what, and when, and not be open to interpretation.
      For example. Bob is going to shoot his wife on march 25, 2022.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @live4Him
      Note the list of Muslim prophecies I posted below.
      I'm not sure what Austin's replies have to do with the prophecies, but there they are...
      Muslims will be just are convinced and convincing in their assertions regarding these prophecies as you are about UPS codes being a sign of the End Times.

      Though I'm still waiting for the armour clad, tiara wearing locusts with the face of a man, the mouth of a lion, the hair of a woman and the tail of a scorpion.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • brian

      I predict there will be many times yet this year where Live4Him will list five things (and sometimes six!)

      March 12, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • lol??

      Prophets can be lost and have prophecies come true.. That's not the point.

      "Deu 13:1~3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:...................."

      March 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Hubert

      L4H

      Not a bad list. Unfortunately for you it discounts all biblical "prophecy". Prophecy must be specific, and not couched in metaphor.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • End Religion

      add: prophecy must have nothing to do with any religion since all religions are a fraud

      March 12, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Austin

      People are going to be divided on politics.

      When there is a one world government, will this power exclude some righteous nation?

      We should not take the Lords name in vain.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • meifumado

      @ Austin

      complete nonsense.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
  6. lol??

    For the stinkin' Dispensationalists and Rapturists that want to diss their born again birthright and follow Esau and the Herodian Dynasty by saying the Nation of Israel is God's chosen:

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    "Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

    I suppose after Esau "came out" he could blame God for "creatin' me this way".

    HHhhhhhmmmm, BBBbbwwwwwhahahahaha

    March 12, 2013 at 11:29 am

    March 12, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
  7. Live4Him

    @ME II : Whoa, I said marks on products was an educated guess. You have in no way made the case for this text being about computers.

    Wrong. Let me quote my original post: "Use of computers in transactions – Revelation 13". My position all along has been that it would take a computer to process the large number of transactions based upon a mark.

    @ME II : But, this happens with the sixth seal, in Rev 6. Isn't that supposed to occur before the trumpets and dragons and whatever before rev 13? Perhaps I misunderstood the order.

    Everybody misunderstands the order, because no one knows for sure the proper sequence of events. Many debate if Revelation is of a sequential or a cyclic nature, swinging between events in heaven and events on earth. If you look at it, it foretells the appearance of Christ multiple times (scene in heaven, scene of birth, scene of triumphant conqueror, etc.). For all we know, chapters 6 and 13 may be simultaneous events. And I'm not claiming to be a Revelation expert, so don't misunderstand me.

    March 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • The Devil

      Would a sane person want to?

      March 12, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Repost

      Yolanda

      CNN Thank you for taking out the garbage and trying to keep this clean

      March 12, 2013 at 8:36 am | Report abuse | Reply

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You know, if you manage to censor anything with which you disagree, you won't have anyone to correspond with except Topher, Chad, bethany, lonny, and Atheism is...

      Sound good to you?

      March 12, 2013 at 8:52 am | Report abuse |

      Science

      Moderated post

      Hey bethany

      Gravity wins no god(s} required

      Curtains Down for the Black Hole Firewall Paradox: Making Gravity Safe for Einstein Again

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130306084151.htm

      March 12, 2013 at 6:26 am | Report abuse |

      March 12, 2013 at 9:37 am | Report abuse |

      science

      Repost

      Moderated Post

      bethany

      om, Tom , the Other One
      Not so fast, jill. Nothing from the first century has made it into this century without passing through many hands – hands that had a willingness to alter what they were copying, compiling, and or translating.

      how do you know those hands were willing to alter what they were copying, compiling, and or translating?

      March 12, 2013 at 9:45 am | Report abuse |

      Science

      Repost for everyone to see

      Moderate please !

      bethany

      ALL WAS SENT TO TURNER. NOW, HE'LL SEE THAT YOU WOULDN'T POST THE SAME VOMIT YOU ALREADY ALLOWED TO BE POSTED AND TO REMAIN SPLATTERED ALL OVER HIS WEBSITE.

      IT IS DISCRIMINATION

      March 12, 2013 at 1:06 am | Reply

      Free speech works! aye ok

      March 12, 2013 at 9:48 am | Report abuse |

      Science

      Easy to answer guess not ?

      The hot button moderated post

      Science

      Morning bethany

      Creationists and se-x education does it work ?

      Peace

      March 12, 2013 at 6:14 am | Report abuse |

      March 12, 2013 at 9:23 am | Report abuse |

      March 12, 2013 at 9:51 am | Report abuse |

      Science

      clarityThanks
      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      Roman Catholic Church Se-x Abuse Cases

      http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/roman_catholic_church_se-x_abuse_cases/index.html

      Not good

      Take dash out of se-x in url for url to work

      March 12, 2013 at 9:57 am | Report abuse |

      Repost

      soundoff (7,942 Responses)
      Moderated post

      the AnViL™

      over 500 years of science using evidence to dispel the areas of human ignorance once occupied by religious idiocy... never once – ever – uncovering any supernatural means to ANYTHING... and still – a never-ending conga line of impotent xian apologists beating their ignorant, delusional heads against the same retarded arguments – or worse – mentally unstable zealots roaming around like unthinking, raving, drooling zombies. their idiocy consuming brainssss braaaaiinnnnns as they spew their vile, repugnant, hate and ignorance.

      disgusting.

      here are some flat facts you'll love:

      1) gods are not necessary to create the universe.
      2) there's no evidence of gods.
      3) gods do not exist. all of them (over 330 million) are imaginary and exist only between the ears of the ignorant delusional people who choose to believe in them.
      4) it is irrational to believe in flatly fictional non-existent beings.

      religion always bends to science – never the other way around.
      through history – never once has science bent to religion – never once – ever.

      religion has always been bent, bashed, broken, bludgeoned, and beaten by science.

      never any exceptions – ever.

      the answers of the great questions of life will never come from any religion – and certainly never xianity.

      only the truly ignorant fail to understand – monotheistic religions are the true force of darkness in this world..
      .
      .
      and science is our only illumination.

      March 12, 2013 at 9:30 am | Report abuse | Reply

      March 12, 2013 at 10:16 am | Report abuse |

      End Religion

      ...moderated repost...

      There are already threads with just lonny/bethanny talking to himself because she deleted all the other comments. Too funny. Strike another big plus sign for religion: loves totalitarianistic control over free speech.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:21 am | Report abuse |

      Science

      As the ARC sinks !!!

      Peace

      March 12, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "Wrong. Let me quote my original post: "

      Wrong. Let me quote my actual post.

      ME II
      @Live4Him,
      " 1) usage to buy and sell "
      Educated guess.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:00 pm | Report abuse |

      "For all we know, chapters 6 and 13 may be simultaneous events. And I'm not claiming to be a Revelation expert, so don't misunderstand me."

      So, when you said "This is like trying to put on a seat belt as the car crash occurs" you didn't actually know which was the seatbelt and which was the crash, right?

      "My position all along has been that it would take a computer to process the large number of transactions based upon a mark."

      First, nowhere does your text specify the number of transactions. Second, why can't people handle a large number of transactions based upon a mark? Third, the text only mentions authrorization to "buy or sell [if] they had the mark,", not actually processing the transaction. Fourth, nowhere does it mention any more than one mark "the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name," as opposed to the UPC which is a number of the product, not the beast (unless the product is the beast, I suppose.)

      Fifth, and hopefully finally, regardless of the number, mark, or where it's located, it does not indicate computers.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @ME II : So, when you said "This is like trying to put on a seat belt as the car crash occurs" you didn't actually know which was the seatbelt and which was the crash, right?

      In my example, the decision to follow Christ is the "seatbelt", while Christ's appearance on earth is the "crash". You must make a decision to follow Christ BEFORE all doubt has been erased (i.e. you know for certain).

      Live4Him: My position all along has been that it would take a computer to process the large number of transactions based upon a mark.
      @ME II : First, nowhere does your text specify the number of transactions.

      Don't be obtuse. Since the text specifies that it would be mandated that EVERYONE have the mark to buy or sell, then we are talking about a lot of daily transactions. And, if there were just 1 million people on this planet (which is significantly lower than in 1 AD) there would be too many transactions occuring for a person to handle based upon a mark. Thus, a computer is required.

      @ME II : Second, why can't people handle a large number of transactions based upon a mark?

      1) The mark is required to buy and sell. This implies that there are different marks for each item (and ultimately each person). So, if a typical grocery shopping trip has 50 items in the cart, how long would it take for the cashier to look up each and every one of these items prior to ringing up the amount (when there would be over a billion different codes)?

      @ME II : Third, the text only mentions authrorization to "buy or sell [if] they had the mark,", not actually processing the transaction.

      How do you process the transaction without authorization?

      March 12, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      Sorry, are we using the reply link or not?
      (reply on pg 5)

      March 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
  8. Doc Vestibule

    The Quaran prophesied a number of things.
    It foresaw fingerprints ("Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing"), industrial pollution ("Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought" ), genetic engineering ("They will alter Allah's creation."), AIDS ("It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of s.ex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers." ).

    Many Muslims will tell you that the Quaran prophecies the Moon Landing.
    “The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer” (The Quran, 54:1)
    The astronauts left the moon in the lunar module containing 21 kilograms of rocks that had belonged to the moon.
    The date this prophecy came to pass was on July 21 1969. The moment the prophecy was fulfilled is confirmed by the hour of departure of the lunar module, which left the lunar surface at 17:54:1 (Universal Time) or 1:54:1 (EDT) and as you have seen above, verse [54:1] is the verse that deals with the prophecy.

    March 12, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Austin

      Is it ethical that George Bush 's grandfather was in an investment bank with Hitlers top funders of the nazi war, walker I think was his name, and then had money seized in trading with the enemy act, because he was American. ?????

      Google bush nazi.

      Then I was also wondering, at the bohemian grove , which bush attends, when they float a burning effigy across a lake up to a huge owl statue.....is that statue the female version of molech?

      Were John Kerry and George bush both skull and bone guys? Is Obama a CIA invention? Why did he run against bush in the middle east and then get involved all over the middle east......Lybia, Egypt,
      Syria

      It just seems strange.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • Austin

      I am scared.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Stay tuned for more ridiculous rationalizations, such as:
      "Water" doesn't really mean water; "bird" does not mean bird; "air" does not mean air; "animal" does not mean animal; and "earth" does not really mean earth. And Chad hasn't even begun on "stars" and "light" and "heavens," yet!!

      All coming right up next on the "Chaaaaaaaaad Channnnnnnel!"

      March 13, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • the troof

      Well duh.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Lenn

      Chad
      Man-made vs natural aside, if we were ever to create another universe artificially then we would be "supernatural" relative to that universe, right? If there really was a creator of this universe it would have been a natural part of it's own universe, or whatever you want to call the "place" where it lived. The argument then goes that, eventually, some natural cause would simply have to be the cause of the origin of all existence.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      Oh Chad, it's adorable that you think so. Like I pointed out before, if you can show me one verifiable, empiracly proven supernatural event that broke a law of nature, I'd be more ready to accept that it's possible for a supernatural event to occur and would allow for a null hypothesis to be that the tomb was empty due to a supernatural event.

      You have not been able to provide anything that proves events that break natural laws can occur thus my "bias" is the same "bias" that I have that 2+2 will ALWAYS = 4.

      The real question is who is more bias in this instance? The person who doesn't believe in supernatural events and supposes that everything can be explained by natural events which has yet to be proven false, who the guy (thats you) who believes in supernatural events in lieu of natural events based on 0 evidence?

      The only bias person in this instance chad, is you my dear, empty headed friend.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
  9. Chad

    @Richard Cranium "All religions are based on guessing and are wrong."
    =>incredibly broad statement.

    What investigation have you done into Christianity that has led you to conclude it is wrong?

    March 12, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • Peter

      He probably started by reading the bible. That in and of itself is enough to scare off most sane people.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Don't try to engage me chad.
      I am in no mood to run your course of circular logic trying to justify your belief in things that do not exist.
      answer this....Why do you not believe in Zeus?

      March 12, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Chad

      @Peter "He probably started by reading the bible. That in and of itself is enough to scare off most sane people."
      @Chad "how so? Which part?

      =========
      @Richard Cranium "answer this....Why do you not believe in Zeus?"
      @Chad "so.. you havent done any investigation at all into Christianity, you dont believe it because Zeus isnt real?

      March 12, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Peter

      My problems start with Genesis Chapter one verse one and end with the last verse in Revelation.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Zeus

      Who are you to claim that I am not real?

      March 12, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Richard Cranium : Don't try to engage me chad. ... answer this....Why do you not believe in Zeus?

      Why do you try to engage him, when you've asked him not to engage you?

      March 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad. What investigation have you made into the thousands of other religions and how did you conclude that they were wrong. Everything that applies to those religions is roughly the same for christianity. None of your circular – the bible says the bible is right.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • End Religion

      We know from the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, which has never been disproved, that the FSM is the One True God, therefore all others do not exist.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • brian

      It's a bit of feeding it it's own medicine, Live4Him. It only wants answers, and not to be asked questions.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Science

      Howdy Chad

      Who taught you to dance ? Was it the ICR ?

      Peace

      March 12, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Chad
      Ok...I'll indulge you for a short while.
      I have studied the worlds religions for over forty years, have read your bible, the quran and many religious docu ments.
      I have attended many services in many varied religions. All rely on "it is written here so it must be true, all require faith, which is to say, you must turn off your logic and reaoning abilities and take what some man wrote a long time ago as fact.
      Otherwise faith is not needed.

      I have read the bible and though some of the stories are entertaining ( and that is where the stories get started, as entertainment, then grow into the myths that are in your bible)

      I have searched for an experience likethose who believe claim they have had , but the harder I search, the more I find that all religions are false, that all are based on ignorance, and claim to have the answers to questions that they do not as the answers they give are based on stories and opinions of those who wrote them.
      There is absolutely no evidence of a god anywhere on this or any other planet.

      Religions are for those who can't handle reality.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Freewill Charley

      Here I thought I could pick and chose what belief system I wanted when I was old enough to think for myself, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha or nothing. What gives you the right to try and demand that I investigate your belief system? It is my right to accept or reject any god as I see fit, get it yet.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa “What investigation have you made into the thousands of other religions”
      @Chad “you don’t believe in Christianity because I havent investigated other religions??

      ==========
      @Santa “ Everything that applies to those religions is roughly the same for christianity.
      @Chad “?? Not even close right? The Judeo/Christian claim is radically different from other religions. You really should consider getting some familiarity with it.

      ==========
      @Richard Cranium “I have studied the worlds religions for over forty years, have read your bible, the quran and many religious docu ments. I have attended many services in many varied religions. All rely on "it is written here so it must be true, all require faith, which is to say, you must turn off your logic and reaoning abilities and take what some man wrote a long time ago as fact.”
      @Chad “to touch on the inaccuracies in your statement:
      1. There is enormous extra-biblical support for the Christian claim, one need not rely on the biblical content solely.

      2. The ancient docs collected in the form of the bible do need to be examined for accuracy, same as any other ancient doc. One doesn’t get to say “well, it was collected as part of the bible, so we throw that out immediately just due to that fact”. No credible historian does such a thing.

      3. Biblical faith is most definitely not “believe in the face of opposing data, sounds like you arent familiar with it.

      Faith:
      A. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
      B. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

      ==============
      Faith has essentially two accepted usages in the English language; atheists In this case discard ‘A’ over ‘B’, then attack Christians in that context only, making a further critical and purposeful redefinition of the word “faith”, claiming that proof obviates it.
      Atheists claim that faith and knowledge of, or evidence of the existence of that which faith is being placed, are incompatible. This is patently nonsense in both current secular usage and biblical context.
      Secular usage: “faith” is an accepted concept in modern law. “Good faith”, fiduciary duty is ingrained in contract law, and nowhere does it require a lack of knowledge about the object in which faith is being expressed. “I have faith in John, he will do what he says”, it does not require that one has no knowledge of the true existence of John. Indeed it is nonsensical to have a faith in something you don’t know exists.

      Biblical context: “ And without faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11
      Which faith is being discussed? A faith for which there is no proof? Does proof obviate faith?
      Throughout the bible it is crystal clear that people, whom are commended for their faith, had ample proof of the existence of God PRIOR to their faith being commended.
      Abraham commended for his faith (Hebrews 11) had ample proof (God speaking to him).
      Moses commended for his faith (Hebrews 11) had ample proof (multiple miracles in Egypt, God speaking directly to him, etc, etc).
      In fact, NO WHERE in the bible is definitive proof of the existence of God EVER shown to obviate a person’s faith. Quite the contrary in fact, God promises to reveal Himself, and make Himself known to you if you search after Him. The biblical pattern is ALWAYS the same, God reveals Himself, then asks for a person’s trust in Him. That is biblical faith.

      There is simply no biblical support for proof obviating faith, or the faith that God desires requires a lack of proof as to His reality.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • Science

      Come on Chad who TAUGHT YOU TO DANCE ?

      March 12, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • Chad

      Havent danced for 20 years, just ask my wife 🙂

      March 12, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      What Dick should have said was "All religions, that I have investigated including Christianity, are based on guessing and are wrong."

      That would have been far more accurate. As for dishonest chad asking "what research have you done" as he does every day, just ignore him. I and many others have explained in extreme detail what investigation we have done and apparently unless we come to the same conclusion as chad he just keeps asking the same question like a broken record. He does not want to hear what investigation you have done, he wants those who havn't done any investigation to follow the lemmings off the cliff because they don't know any better and the rest of us he know's he cannot fool so just gives up. Sad chad.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • Science

      No thanks

      March 12, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • Chad

      @MD,
      The reason I ask the question, is to illustrate to the casual reader that:
      A. Rarely does an atheist actually investigate the bible, they may say they do, but when pressed all they do is run to infidels.org and get a list of nonsense..
      B. "The bible is stupid" isnt a reason, neither is "all religions are nonsense".
      C. The fact that over 90% of the time the atheist response to "what investigation have you done into Christianity" is "Well, what investigation have you done into Zeus" demonstrates that they have done none, and are really quite surprised that anyone would think it needed investigation at all to discount it.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      A true miracle would be if you were to actually debate honestly.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, You are so dishonest. You just sidestep questions. There is no more evidence for christianity than for any other religion although you have clearly convinced yourself.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "The fact that over 90% of the time the atheist response to "what investigation have you done into Christianity" is "Well, what investigation have you done into Zeus" demonstrates that they have done none, and are really quite surprised that anyone would think it needed investigation at all to discount it."

      Well chad, what investigation have you done into Zeus? You discount it as not valid and yet you are asking the same exact question of them and get upset when they discount you as you do them.

      Also, the fact is that most Christians have done almost no research themselves. What research have you done into why you like eating hamburgers? Probably none, hamburgers were just shoved in your face since you were a child and you grew up with it and accepted it as good food, much like Christianity in America. If the only Christians on the planet were those who actually had read the bible cover to cover, studied the deeper things of Christ and Pauls teachings, and believed based on that real investigation, you might have a few hundred thousand members top. It would be about the same membership as some of the small Christian sects. The rest of you just ride the path of least resistance, and that is what I find insulting and disingenuous.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "There is no more evidence for christianity than for any other religion although you have clearly convinced yourself."

      =>your statement is clearly not accurate..
      On simply the historical evidence alone, there is a mas sive amount of data supporting the Christian claim.

      Historical evidence
      – no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect
      – Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth
      – Historicity of the empty tomb
      – Origin of the disciples belief that they had met a resurrected Jesus, a belief they held so strongly that they were willing to go to their deaths proclaiming the truth.

      Scientific evidence for the God of Israel
      Fossil Record.
      From the late 1800's thru 1972 the notion of "Darwinian gradualism" held the world captive. The notion that purely random mutation preserved in the population by natural selection would produce a gradual change, which over time would create the complexity of life we now observe (phyletic gradualism).
      Then, in 1972 the publication of "Punctuated equilibria: an alternative to phyletic gradualism" by Stephen Gould (atheist) finally forced the scientific world to accept the reality that the fossil record does not show the gradual change over time that Darwin proposed.

      Instead, what the community was forced to acknowledge, is that the fossil record reflects stasis and rapid change.
      This supports the theistic evolutionist claim that God used natural processes to develop life on this earth, as pure chance can never explain the grand paroxysm of necessarily interrelated mutations that are required to occur to accomplish this rapid change.

      Origins of the universe
      For most of scientific history, the universe was thought to have always existed, directly refuting the theistic claim that the universe had a beginning, and a creator.

      Then, a series of discoveries resulted in a complete transformation of thought, we now know that our universe has not always existed, rather it had a beginning, confirming the theistic claim:
      – 1929: Edwin Hubble discovers red shift (the stars and planets are all moving away from each other. The universe is expanding in all directions)
      – 1965: discovery of microwave cosmic background radiation (the echo's of the big bang)
      – 1998, two independent research groups studying distant supernovae were astonished to discover, against all expectations, that the current expansion of the universe is accelerating (Reiss 1998, Perlmutter 1999).
      – 2003: Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin's Past-Finite Universe proves our universe had a beginning

      Fine Tuning of the universe
      In the past 30 or 40 years, scientists have been astonished to find that the initial conditions of our universe were fine-tuned for the existence of building blocks of life. Constants such as gravitational constant have been found, the variation of which to even the smallest degree, would have rendered the universe utterly incapable of supporting life.

      "There is now broad agreement among physicists and cosmologists that the Universe is in several respects ‘fine-tuned' for life". However, he continues, "the conclusion is not so much that the Universe is fine-tuned for life; rather it is fine-tuned for the building blocks and environments that life requires." - Paul Davies

      "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the mas ses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life - Stephen Hawking

      “As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. Dyson of the Insti tute for Advanced Study in Princeton

      Now, neither Davies or Hawking is a believer in God. They both believe in fine tuning, they just posit natural reasons for it.

      Evidence from human experience
      – Objective morality exists
      – Free will exists (it doesn’t in the atheist/naturalist/determinist view)

      March 12, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • Tommy

      Chad why do you continue to post that as if it is evidence of anything? An empty tomb? I say prove there was an empty tomb without using the bible.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • Chad

      @MD
      1. thanks for demonstrating that you have done as much investigation into Christianity as you have Zeus, none.
      2. Christians have the following reason to believe Zeus is not real, what is your reason?
      (P) If the God of Israel is real (as revealed in the Bible), then what He says is true (He says there are no other Gods)
      (P) The God of Israel is real
      (C) There are no other gods.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • Tommy

      Also, Chad, lots of people are willing to die for beliefs that end up being wrong.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Chad

      @Tommy " lots of people are willing to die for beliefs that end up being wrong."
      =>but never for something that they KNOW is wrong.

      So, if the disciples made up the story of the resurrection, they knew it was wrong, and would not have gone to their death proclaiming the truth of that.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • Paul

      Chad, for all you know that bible was written by the trickster god Loki, and those who are fooled by it will go to "hell"

      March 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And the miracle still has not happened. Chad has nothing but the same "evidences" that aren't evidences.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      Chad, thank you for not even reading my post because your reply completely ignores it and proves my point once again. I have done the research, 30 years of it, read the bible cover to cover several times, so i know you just want to move on to some other poor sap who hasn't read the bible yet so you can lie to him about whats in it and try to get him to validate your sad existence.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
    • Chad

      @Paul "for all you know that bible was written by the trickster god Loki"
      =>you really, really, really should endeavor to at least sort of get familiar with the bible.. That simply betrays an utter lack of familiarity on your part.

      There are far fewer witnesses to cla ssical texts than to the Bible, and unlike the New Testament where the earliest witnesses are often within a couple decades of the original, the earliest existing manuscripts of most clas sical texts were written about a millennium after their composition.
      For example, the earliest surviving copies of parts of the Roman historian Tacitus' main work, the Annals of Imperial Rome (written in 116 AD), come from a single manuscript written in 850 AD, although for other parts of his work, the earliest copies come from the 11th century, while other parts of his work have been lost.[106]
      The earliest copies of The Jewish War by Josephus (originally composed in the 1st century AD), in contrast, come from nine manuscripts written in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries.[106]

      After the Bible, the next best preserved ancient work is Homer's Iliad, with 650 copies originating about 1,000 years after the original copy.[106] Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War (written in the 50s BC) survives in nine copies written in the 8th century.[109] Thucydides' history of the Peloponesian War and Herodotus' history of the Persian War (both written in the 5th century BC) survives in about eight early copies, the oldest ones dating from the 10th century AD.[109] Biblical scholar F. F. Bruce has said "the evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of clas sical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning...It is a curious fact that historians have often been much readier to trust the New Testament records than have many theologians."

      March 12, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Chad

      @MD,
      so, do you have anything specific instead of "it's all nonsense"?

      March 12, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • clarity

      @Chad – yeah – blah blah blah – lots of writing about the gospels, but what is really know about who really wrote them? How much is really known about the actually story lines within that can be verified? (Especially parts of the story, that match any reasonable evidence, that deal with the more supernatural aspects of the story.) This is where things break down and have to be completely taken on faith.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • clarity

      (what is really known)

      March 12, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, You c&p that pretty much every time you get into a thread. It has been refuted every time you post it.
      " no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect"
      Depends what you mean by historical detail – the creation story has been disproven. There is no evidence of Moses, Job, Noah, Lot, etc. so the absence of evidence should prevent you from believing unconditionally.
      "Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth" Again no real evidence of the person and definitely not of the divinity.
      "Historicity of the empty tomb" No evidence that the Jesus character was placed in a tomb or that he escaped. Beyon credibilty.
      "Origin of the disciples belief that they had met a resurrected Jesus, a belief they held so strongly that they were willing to go to their deaths proclaiming the truth." Again no evidence.
      The bible is correct because the bible says so is not a convincing argument.

      March 12, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "the creation story has been disproven"
      @Chad "?? not at all, note that a "six planetary revolution" view of genesis is only one possible exegesis..
      see http://ldolphin.org/haseldays.html for example, although the author believes the literal 6 days, he does a good job reviewing the views.

      =====
      @Santa "There is no evidence of Moses, Job, Noah, Lot, etc. so the absence of evidence should prevent you from believing unconditionally."
      @Chad "utter, utter nonsense
      A. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
      B. you are talking about three individuals over 4000 years ago. Nomads, who would not have left anything behind.

      ==
      @Santa""Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth" Again no real evidence of the person "
      @Chad "utter, utter nonsense.

      Can you name any serious scholar that claims Jesus didnt exist?

      Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[5][6][7][8] and biblical scholars and cla ssical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[9][10][11] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[12][13] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[14][15][16] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[17][18][19][20][21] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal as sent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

      [5] Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans 2001 ISBN 0391041185 pages 2-5
      [6] Christopher M. Tuckett In The Cambridge Companion to Jesus edited by Markus N. A. Bockmuehl 2001 ISBN 0521796784 pages 122-126
      [7] Amy-Jill Levine in the The Historical Jesus in Context edited by Amy-Jill Levine et al. 2006 Princeton Univ Press ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6 pages 1-2
      [8] Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Bart D. Ehrman (Sep 23, 1999) ISBN 0195124731 Oxford Univ Press pages ix-xi
      [9] In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (who is a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
      ^ Robert M. Price (an atheist who denies existence) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61
      [10] Michael Grant (a cla ssicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
      [11] Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
      [12] Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and cla ssical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
      [13] James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
      [14] The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".
      [15] Paul L. Maier "The Date of the Nativity and Chronology of Jesus" in Chronos, kairos, Christos: nativity and chronological studies by Jerry Vardaman, Edwin M. Yamauchi 1989 ISBN 0-931464-50-1 pages 113-129
      [16] The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the New Testament by Andreas J. Köstenberger, L. Scott Kellum 2009 ISBN 978-0-8054-4365-3 page 114
      ^ Joel B. Green, Scot McKnight, I. Howard Marshall, Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (InterVarsity Press, 1992), page 442
      [17] The Historical Jesus in Recent Research edited by James D. G. Dunn and Scot McKnight 2006 ISBN 1-57506-100-7 page 303
      [18] Who Is Jesus? by John Dominic Crossan, Richard G. Watts 1999 ISBN 0664258425 pages 28-29
      [19] James Barr, Which language did Jesus speak, Bulletin of the John Rylands University Library of Manchester, 1970; 53(1) pages 9-29 [1]
      [20] Handbook to exegesis of the New Testament by Stanley E. Porter 1997 ISBN 90-04-09921-2 pages 110-112
      [21] Discovering the language of Jesus by Douglas Hamp 2005 ISBN 1-59751-017-3 page 3-4
      ^ Jesus in history and myth by R. Joseph Hoffmann 1986 ISBN 0-87975-332-3 page 98

      ======
      @santa ""Historicity of the empty tomb" No evidence that the Jesus character was placed in a tomb
      @Chad "a theory discarded decades ago as an utterly insufficient explanation.

      what I see over and over from you and the vast majority of atheists is an utter unwillingness to even look at any of the actual evidence..
      why?

      March 12, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "Historical evidence
      – no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect"

      (In reference to discussion @ http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/07/my-take-the-pope-is-irrelevant/comment-page-8/#comment-2208450)
      So the Bible is just wrong when it says, "while Quirinius was governor of Syria." Luke 2:2
      So the Bible is just wrong when it says, "all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered" Gen 7:19
      So the Bible is just wrong when it says, "The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." (Joshua 10:13)
      So the Bible is just wrong when is says, "morning", "evening", and "day"?
      So the Bible is just wrong when it says, "trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it" (Gen 1:11) appeared before land animals?
      So the Bible is just wrong when it says, "every winged bird according to its kind" (Gen 1:21) appeared before land animals?
      etc.
      etc.

      March 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • JMEF

      Why? Because of the horror of the even remote possibility of becoming Chad like, believing in a supernatural Zombie with all my heart and mind, such a waste.

      March 12, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • Peter

      Chad just can't seem to handle the fact that someone could see all the same things as him, and come to a different conclusion. The problem, Chad, is that none of what you call evidence is actually evidence of anything. I don't believe Jesus was the son of a god, i don't believe that he came back from the dead, in fact I don't believe he preformed any of the miracles attributed to him. I have read the whole bible, and spent the first 20 years of my life in Christian schools and I always thought that the Jesus story was kind of silly. If you really think that by believing in Jesus that you will get to live forever when you die then you are a moron.

      March 12, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "so, do you have anything specific instead of "it's all nonsense"?"

      Besides what we have already covered in many past posts? The fact that there was no global flood, that we did not decend from two primary humans a few thousand years ago, that the miracles in the bible such as Me II points out like holding the sun still for a day which if you ask any physicist about what that would do to the earth or the sun or the solar system if it was put on hold for 24 hours and whether without delving into the realm of "magic" where anything is possible, up is down, right is left, that physicist would laugh in your face.

      You have no reasonable and logical explanation for your faith, so stop trying to define in logical or reasonable terms, just say this is what I believe because I believe in magic and leave it at that. Then if you want, you can tell other people how magic powers have worked in your life so you can try and convince them to believe in magic too. But just stop with the "what research have you done" line because it's wholey dishonest.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II,
      not sure why you keep posting the same things when they have all been addressed.. but thanks for the link, saved me from looking it up..

      ======================
      @ME II: “Flowering plants (fruit and nuts) did not appear before land animals. Bird, or flying creatures, did not appear before land animals.”
      @Chad “as I have said on multiple times, I do not have an explanation for flowering plants.
      As I have said on multiple times, the categorization of “birds” and “land animals” is the issue. The first bird appeared before the first mammal.
      =======
      @ME II “if days = epoch "morning" and "evening" did not occur before the sun and moon.”
      @Chad “”beginning” and “end” did though an alternate translation of that word.
      =======
      @ME II “if days = 24hrs The time-frame between plants and man, plants and fish, fish and land animals, is to short by millions of years”
      @Chad “again, there is excellent exegetical support for “epoch”, not “day” as in “one revolution of the planet on its axis”
      ===
      ME II: " It was NOT simply light, the Bible specifically states,…. "
      Chad: "could have simply been light for 24 hours, which would appear like the sun stopped”
      ===
      @ME II: "Yes, we can. Such a global flood ("all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered" Gen 7:19) would have left definite evidence in the geologic record and it would have to have been at least in the last 10 million years since people were involved. No, such flood happened.
      @Chad “again:
      A. there is an excellent exegetical case to be made for a non-planet wide flood, and we certainly have evidence for that.
      B. Alternatively, since we don’t know when the flood happened, we can’t know for sure that the flood wasn’t planet wide.
      ===
      @ME II: "There is a discrepancy between Matthew 2:1 "during the time of King Herod" and Luke 2:2 " while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria." on when Jesus was born. The king Herod the Great died in 4BC and Quinnius wasn't governor of Syria until 6AD.”
      @Chad “again, and earlier census by Quirinius when he was procurator completely resolves the “discrepancy”.
      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius#Attempts_at_harmonisation

      March 12, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Chad

      How old was Adam?

      we dont know.. the bible doesnt tell us..

      In 1987, a group of genet­icists published a surprising study in the journal Nature.­ The­ researchers examined the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from 147 people across all of today's major racial groups. These researchers found that the lineage of all people alive today falls on one of two branches in humanity's family tree. One of these branches consists of nothing but African lineage, the other contains all other groups, including some African lineage.
      Even more impressive, the geneticists concluded that every person on Earth right now can trace his or her lineage back to a single common female ancestor who lived around 200,000 years ago. Because one entire branch of human lineage is of African origin and the other contains African lineage as well, the study's authors concluded Africa is the place where this woman lived. The scientists named this common female ancestor Mitochondrial Eve.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • Bring on the flood of Chad's equivocation!

      March 12, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      Yes, you found an article about a scientific discovery. So what?

      March 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad,
      Science disproves the creation myths of all religions.
      ==
      You said
      A. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
      B. you are talking about three individuals over 4000 years ago. Nomads, who would not have left anything behind.

      Which is exactly why I said the absence of evidence should prevent you from believing unconditionally. You have no evidence and yet you view that as no evidence that they didn't exist. Don't you see how twisted that logic is?
      ==
      There is little evidence that this person existed and no evidence of his divinity.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Paul

      Chad, you do realize that 200,000 years ago there was more than one woman on the planet right?

      March 12, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      Also of note Chad, is that the excuses of "allegory" or "ancient people just wouldn't have understood the real facts so God gave them what they could understand" to explain away all the inaccuracies doesn't work. If the bible is truly divine in origin then it would contain zero mistakes. The bible doesn't say "And God created mankind from a process of evolution that he guided and then gave self awareness to two original primates he called Adam and Eve", it says God created Adam out of the dust of the earth like some golem and breathed life into him, then apparently some time later when Adam was lonely God put him to sleep, took a rib and created a fully functioning Eve. I guess he also tacked on a penis to Adam now that he had an Eve, or were we made in the likeness of God and God already had a penis? You all seem to consider "him" male. The more you walk slowly through each scripture in the bible the more and more it sounds just like several of the dryer parts of the Silmarillion. It falls apart under the light of reason unless you jump the logic gap with the simple phrase of "I believe in magic" which would then at least allow the person you are arguing with to say "oh, okay, bye bye."

      I don't have a problem watching people have fun Larp'ing (Live Action Role Playing) but if they leave the renaissance fair and try to get our public schools to teach jousting, thats when i'm going to stand up and say "No!" Keep your Christian Larp'ing at Church and at home, but you are fine to keep the Knights code in your heart at all times if you like.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "Science disproves the creation myths of all religions"
      @Chad "well, that statement is wrong by definition. Science can not (by definition) show what caused our universe to come into existence.

      ===
      @Santa "Which is exactly why I said the absence of evidence should prevent you from believing unconditionally. You have no evidence and yet you view that as no evidence that they didn't exist. Don't you see how twisted that logic is?"
      @Chad "uh.. no.. I have evidence (ancient docs and the existence of the Jewish people now)
      Vastly more evidence than for other ancient persons, the validity of which no one would even think to question.

      ==
      I actually love "Jesus deniers", it really demonstrates the degree to which many atheists will go to ignore evidence..

      any luck finding one credible scholar that denies that Jesus was a historical figure?

      March 12, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
    • Chad

      @Paul,
      you might think to do some reading.. start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

      March 12, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • Chad

      "Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being Genesis 2

      how long did that take?

      we dont know, the bible doesnt say.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      Again, you've cited a study on a discovery. So what?

      March 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Paul

      Here is the second paragraph, just for Chad.

      Mitochondrial Eve is named after mitochondria and the Biblical Eve.[3] Unlike her biblical namesake, she was not the only living human female of her time. However, her female contemporaries failed to produce a direct unbroken female line to any living woman in the present day.

      Please Note it says, not the only human female of her time.

      So do you realize that MtEve was not the only female on the planet 200,000 years ago?

      Also according to the first paragraph it took god about 138,000 years to make Eve after making Adam.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Paul –

      In case you're unaware of the fact, Chad is simply a smug prick.

      Well done.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "not sure why you keep posting the same things when they have all been addressed.. "

      I'm pretty sure it's because he's waiting for a real response, not the pitiful excuses you keep repeating. Here is a rehash of your excuses:

      "as I have said on multiple times, I do not have an explanation for flowering plants"
      "an alternate translation of that word."
      " there is excellent exegetical support for “epoch”, not “day"
      "could have simply been light for 24 hours"
      "case to be made for a non-planet wide flood"
      "census by Quirinius when he was procurator"

      And if your aunt had a dick she'd be your uncle.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
    • Chad

      @Paul "Mitochondrial Eve is named after mitochondria and the Biblical Eve.[3] Unlike her biblical namesake, she was not the only living human female of her time. However, her female contemporaries failed to produce a direct unbroken female line to any living woman in the present day."
      @Chad "the bible says that Eve was the only living female at that time?
      where?
      If you read it, it merely says that Eve was the mother of all living, living could have several meanings, future, or spiritual.

      who did cain marry? Who was he afraid of?

      The vast majority of atheists dont really bother doing any investigation, so they really have no info other than what is posted on infidels.org to go on..

      March 12, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad,
      Science can not (by definition) show what caused our universe to come into existence.

      Actually it can. The Big Bang explains it. I agree we don't know how that singularity of mass got there but that doesn't mean a god did it. Also the rest of the creation myth is proven to be incorrect. We know that all animals and plants were not created at the same time. We know that the sequence of creation in the bible is not correct.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • JMEF

      Paul
      That is a common practice Chad uses. It is what Chad leaves out that doesn't jive with his delusion that makes him the liar he is.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad,
      @Chad "uh.. no.. I have evidence (ancient docs and the existence of the Jewish people now)
      Vastly more evidence than for other ancient persons, the validity of which no one would even think to question.

      The existence of the Jewish people now is not proof of Jesus.
      Which persons?

      March 12, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa we trust "Actually it can. The Big Bang explains it"
      @Chad "no.. the Big Bang merely describes the period of rapid inflation, it doesnt discuss origination."

      ========
      @Santa "I agree we don't know how that singularity of mass got there"
      @Chad "right, that's why I said that Science can not (by definition) show what caused our universe to come into existence

      ========
      @Santa "Also the rest of the creation myth is proven to be incorrect. We know that all animals and plants were not created at the same time. We know that the sequence of creation in the bible is not correct."
      @Chad "bible doesnt say animals and plants were created at the same time.
      Actually, the sequence IS correct (caveat, I cant explain the seemingly incorrectly placed flowering plants).

      March 12, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And once again, CHad needs to spin like a merry-go-round to make his big book of multiple choice fit whatever he wants. Just like every other apologist throughout history.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @JMEF –

      There are other things that display Chad's dishonesty – the following, for example...

      Chad posting as "Rachel" –

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/06/richard-dawkins-evolution-is-not-a-controversial-issue/comment-page-10/#comments
      Starting ~September 9, 2012 at 7:24 pm
      Busted – September 9, 2012 at 8:13 pm

      March 12, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      " "the bible says that Eve was the only living female at that time? where? If you read it, it merely says that Eve was the mother of all living, living could have several meanings, future, or spiritual."

      So when the bible say's that Eve was created from Adams rib this was just allegory and Eve was just the spiritual mother of humanity even though there were many other female humans at that time? Why not just rewrite it all the way you want it to read so that it lines up with science, just like it would be if it had been written by the divine creator of the universe and contained no errors.

      If even one part of the bible is false then the whole thing is suspect. That is why Chad works so hard trying to cover over the errors and build bridges over the gaps it contains for his faith is held together with duct tape and snot and even a slight breeze of logic will shake it to the ground.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • JMEF

      Anothef statement Chad likes to leave out...
      Cosmic Begining: Proof of a Cosmic Beginig.....,Borde, Guth, Vilenkin
      Cosmic origin can be described in purely scientific terms.

      March 12, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      Here is a tiny view into the life of a chad...

      Teacher: Hi Chad, what's the matter?
      Chad: You gave me an "F" on this last test and I think you made a mistake.
      Teacher: Oh, well which one's do you think you should have gotten right that I marked wrong?
      Chad: Well, right here on question number 1, you asked how fast would a train have to travel to go 30 miles in 30 minutes and my answer was "super fast" which is obviously correct.
      Teacher: Well, even though you might think it's "super fast" I was looking for an actual answer in miles per hour.
      Chad: So thats one I got right. The next is number two, you asked for the answer of 2 + 2 and of course my answer is 7 because 6 is an unholy number and 666 is the mark of the beast, but 7 is a holy number signifying completeness.
      Teach: Well, that may be but that has nothing to do with the question asked...
      Chad: So I got that one right, now here on question number 10...
      Teacher: Chad, please take your seat, you got an "F", just accept it and try reading your school books...
      Chad: So I can tell my parents I got an "A" now, okay, bye...

      March 12, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "not sure why you keep posting the same things when they have all been addressed.."

      Because you keep claiming that "- no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect".
      =========

      Chad “as I have said on multiple times, I do not have an explanation for flowering plants."

      so how is this not an inaccuracy?
      =========

      Chad: "As I have said on multiple times, the categorization of “birds” and “land animals” is the issue. The first bird appeared before the first mammal."

      The does not address the inaccuracy of "birds" appearing after land animals. The Bible states " all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds" not just mammals.

      Also, birds actually appear after the first mammals any way.

      How is that not inaccurate?
      =========

      quote from previous discussion:

      'beginning' and 'end' did though an alternate translation of that word."
      What alternate translation? Every version uses "mornging", "evening", and "day", as far as I can tell (http://bible.cc/genesis/1-5.htm).

      The hebrew word "ereb" is only translated as:
      "evening (114), evening* (1), evenings (2), every evening (1), night (2), sunset (1), twilight (11)."
      (http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6153.htm)

      The hebrew word "boqer" is only translated as:
      "dawn (1), dawn* (2), day (1), daybreak (1), every morning (5), morning (195), mornings (2), soon (1), tomorrow morning (1)."
      (http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/1242.htm)

      How is that not inaccurate?
      ==========

      ME II: " It was NOT simply light, the Bible specifically states,…. "
      Chad: "could have simply been light for 24 hours, which would appear like the sun stopped”

      As you quoted me, almost, the Bible specifically states "The sun stopped..."

      Either the sun stopped or the Bible is inaccurate, right?
      ==========

      The Bible states, "all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered" Gen 7:19

      How is that not inaccurate?
      ==========

      @ME II: "There is a discrepancy between Matthew 2:1 "during the time of King Herod" and Luke 2:2 " while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria." on when Jesus was born. The king Herod the Great died in 4BC and Quinnius wasn't governor of Syria until 6AD.”
      @Chad “again, and earlier census by Quirinius when he was procurator completely resolves the “discrepancy”.
      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius#Attempts_at_harmonisation

      see "attempts" in a dictionary.

      "From 12 – 1 BC, Quirinius led a campaign against the Hom[]onadenses, a tribe based in the mountainous region of Galatia and Cilicia." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius)

      March 12, 2013 at 6:18 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF "Cosmic origin can be described in purely scientific terms."
      @Chad "by definition it can not.."

      ========
      @Mass Debater,
      you reading information into the bible that isnt explicitly stated. Who did Cain marry?

      March 12, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Oooh, Chad...ME II is handing you your ass in a high hat. Have you started sweating, twitching, and rocking? Perhaps it's time to break-out a supportive post from Rachel or Cosette. Hahaha!

      March 12, 2013 at 6:34 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Intresting that the guys that wrote the book, renowned scientists, would disagree with your conclusion, of course, you being an expert in all things have a higher authority your 2000 year old book of myths. Another line you ignore from Vilenkin....
      "is it (cosmic origin) the proof of the existance of God, maybe, that is far to simple, but it gives no advantage of the theologian over the scientist." Amazing the apologists can cherry pick and twist anything to the conclusion they have alredy reached, pathetic.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:38 pm |
    • clarity

      Damn! I go for one quick phone call and here Chad has done his marionette show with the modern scholars of antiquity and put them back in the box already. Jeez.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed." Gen 2:7,8

      "18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man." Gen 2:18-22

      "16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch." Gen 4:16,17

      So, according to Chad, the bible leaves room for other men and other women because of the inconsistancy that comes about when Moses explains how Adam and Eve were the first humans, but then their Son left them to go start a family in the land of Nod with someone else.

      If your bible contains inconsistancies and errors then it cannot be of divine origin. This is the plain and simple truth that you are doing mental backflips to avoid accepting. Occam's razor cut's your flawed premises to pieces. The simplest explanation is that the bible is not accurate and is not divinely inspired, but you refuse to accept it.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Chad's been beaten into submission. Good job, forum.

      March 12, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II: “Flowering plants...
      @Chad “Not understanding doesnt make it inaccurate, it simply means it isnt understood yet.
      40 years ago atheists gleefully pointed to the lack of any evidence that Pontius Pilate was real as proof.. then, oops
      ditto with the hitt ites, multi tudes of OT cities and rulers.

      never be against the bible, it has yet to be wrong.

      =======
      Regarding a literal 6 days: Read http://ldolphin.org/haseldays.html although the author believes the literal 6 days, he does a good job reviewing the views.

      you seemed determined to ignore mountains of exegesis that dont agree with the young earth view.. wonder why 🙂

      ===
      ME II: " It was NOT simply light, the Bible specifically states,…. "
      Chad: "could have simply been light for 24 hours, which would appear like the sun stopped”

      ===
      @ME II: "Yes, we can. Such a global flood ("all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered" Gen 7:19) would have left definite evidence in the geologic record and it would have to have been at least in the last 10 million years since people were involved. No, such flood happened.
      @Chad “again:
      A. there is an excellent exegetical case to be made for a non-planet wide flood, and we certainly have evidence for that.
      B. Alternatively, since we don’t know when the flood happened, we can’t know for sure that the flood wasn’t planet wide.
      ===
      @ME II: "There is a discrepancy between Matthew 2:1 "during the time of King Herod" and Luke 2:2 " while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria." on when Jesus was born. The king Herod the Great died in 4BC and Quinnius wasn't governor of Syria until 6AD.”
      @Chad “again, and earlier census by Quirinius when he was procurator completely resolves the “discrepancy”.
      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius#Attempts_at_harmonisation

      you may not like it, but there are other legitimate views 🙂

      March 12, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Wait for it...
      Wait for it...
      And there it is...
      Dance, monkey, dance.
      It's just too easy, Chad.
      Hahaha!

      March 12, 2013 at 7:11 pm |
    • Chad

      @Mass Debator

      Question for you:
      1. where was Eden?
      2. who did Cain marry?

      you are still forgetting that if the bible doesnt supply a detail, we shouldnt assume that something in particular happened. That is very reasonable, dont you think?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:22 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      I honestly don't understand.

      "ME II: " It was NOT simply light, the Bible specifically states,…. "
      Chad: "could have simply been light for 24 hours, which would appear like the sun stopped”"

      - Not only does the bible specifically state the sun did stop, but why do you think that light without a source would appear like the source would still be in the sky? How does that work out in your head? You have to think these people during the event all incredibly stupid to look up at the sky, see it lit without a sun in the sky and think to themselves, "Well, it's bright out, so the sun must be stopped somewhere in the sky, we just can't see it.... lets say god stopped the sun in the sky anyways...."

      Seriously, how does this compute?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • Chad

      Just as "this day is endless", or "he is as strong as an ox" and "the Lord is a strong tower" are expressions, so (I believe) Joshua 10 is referring to light being granted to the Israelites for a full 24 hours somehow (I know not how).

      I do not believe that the planet stopped rotating, nor do I believe that is what the author intended to communicate.

      March 12, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • clarity

      Chad – why do you think the G of A didn't give man as good an immune system as a crocodile?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " The sun stopped in the sky " seems a pretty straight forward statement to make. If some other idea was intended, why not simply communicate that idea ?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:47 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Why do you suppose "I don't know" is an acceptable answer in the echo-chamber in which Chad dwells, but he insists "science does not yet know" is unacceptable. Dishonesty? Delusion? Both?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      "you are still forgetting that if the bible doesnt supply a detail, we shouldnt assume that something in particular happened. That is very reasonable, dont you think?"

      Chad, what the bible leaves out is still of import, though I will accept your premise that just because it leaves something out doesn't automatically make it invalid. However, we are dealing with the things it does say and you are making very poor excuses for them then walking away as if you answered it to everyone satisfaction. You have not and the bible has not and your religion has not explained these glaring errors to my or millions of others satisfaction and we are not stupid enough to just swallow any excuse you dish out just because you find it satisfying.

      March 12, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Chad,
      I just spent several minutes reading this thread and you are doing a great job. You seem to be very knowledgeable, but you are also heavily outnumbered. I wish I knew some of this stuff you have researched. I would jump in and help you out. My favorite part was about faith. No one can really have strong faith until God reveals himself to them. Keep up the good work.

      March 12, 2013 at 8:18 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Robert

      You just gave Chad a huge ere.ction. I didn't realize that was allowed in your religion

      @Chad

      That's the worst cop out I've ever seen. The examples you gave are hyperbole similes, but this is different. When someone says this day is endless, it's because it feels like it but they don't mean it literally. When someone says he's as strong as an ox, he's remarking on a persons strength but not saying he's literally as strong as an ox, and the god being a tower thing is metaphor. The sun stopping in the sky in order to give light for a full 24 hours is a wholly different matter. The bible clearly states the sun was in the sky to light up the sky for a full 24 hours, not the sky was lit for 24 hours as if by the sun, but the sun had stopped. If you don't think the earth stopped rotating what exactly do you think the author was trying to communicate exactly? It's pretty cut and dry and yet you insist that this statement is not what he meant.....

      Looks like here's one sticky point that just won't go away huh?

      March 12, 2013 at 9:17 pm |
    • Chad is not just a lovely country in Sub-Saharan Africa

      This caught my eye: "I do not believe that the planet stopped rotating, nor do I believe that is what the author intended to communicate."

      I think in order to hide itself in its infinite goodness and longing to be together with its Creation once again, God did an extraordinary job of disguising itself in the only records of its most extraordinary acts – really the only things that might suggest God might actually exist and be involved in our world. You would think that it would be less coy and would not want us to debate about whether it had done something like stopping and restarting the earth's rotation.

      March 12, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • Chad

      You think asking for additional daylight and God sovereignly doing it by some mechanism is coy? Disguising Himself?
      you feel the same about other miraculously timed natural events such as stopping the Jordan (landslide), destroying Sodom and Gomorrah (perhaps volcano).

      you and I have dramatically different opinions on what "coy" means..

      March 12, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • Chad

      @MD "You have not and the bible has not and your religion has not explained these glaring errors"
      =>how exactly is not saying how many years elapsed between Adam and Noah and Abraham a "glaring error"?
      How exactly is not telling us how many years it took to for Adam to be formed from the dust of the earth a "glaring error"?
      How exactly is not telling us how old the universe is, a "glaring error"?

      The bible is a record of many of Gods interactions with humanity, it's purpose is to tell us how God prepared a people to deliver a Messiah.

      No matter how much information is provided, a person that doesnt want to believe would always find a reason not to..

      “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
      29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
      30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
      31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
      - Luke 16

      ===
      thanks Robert!

      March 12, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Yep. Glaring. Obviously. The faithful will grasp at any reason to continue in his preferred and comfortable belief rather than deal honestly with the evidence. Ask and devout muslim.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Chad,

      “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” – Luke 16,

      What's scary is that you really believe this, not because it is supported by any psychological evidence or even your experience of normal sane people, but because the bible told you so. You can believe something this contrary to reason. You need to.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Why would anyone not want to believe in an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being, should it exist, that wants a personal relationship with us – that and to carry us through eternity with it in its love and care? The trouble is actual evidence of it is lacking, though charlatans and other dishonest sorts, and confused people, present what they think might be evidence.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      "31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” – Luke 16"

      Poor ol' "God", up there on 'his' fluffy cloud, scratching 'his' long white beard, absolutely at a loss to think of a method to convince these mortals of 'his' existence!

      March 12, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      To answer your most recent reply, I will answer your previous questions:

      from Chad
      Question for you:
      1. where was Eden?
      2. who did Cain marry?

      1. Eden was an invented location much like Heliopolis was for the Egyptians, a mental concept for a fictional place of beginnings. It was Moses who, as a trained and learned ex-Prince of Egypt, invented this place to give the Israelites the feeling of connection to the first humans, starting the perceived lineage of Kings with rights to a "promised land" that was already occupied and would require some violent house cleaning.

      2. Cain, aka Seth – "it appears the followers of Seth may have resisted the followers of Horus and the First Dynasty pharaoh, Menes, when he united Upper and Lower Egypt. This struggle for control of Egypt seems to be reflected in the mythology. At this point, Seth is portrayed as questioning the authority of his brother, Osiris. The Osiris cults took this opportunity to discredit the followers of Seth; he was now considered to be Osiris' evil brother. And the story was told that Seth was evil since birth, because he ripped himself from his mother's womb by tearing through her side. In the Osiris legends, it is Seth who tricks and murders Osiris." That's right, another character Moses invented to portray evil based on stories he had already learned from his Egyptian tutors.

      Just because it leaves out any exact dating (though lineages with ages is fairly to the point) doesn't mean it holds any truth, that merely confirms that it is not of divine origin. If a book is written so as to be left open for interpretation then anyone can claim it, interpret it as they wish and use it for good or ill, and the bible has most certainly been that. Can it be used for good? Sure, it contains many valid healthy principles to live by, but so do many other books about morality and explore the benefits of moral behavior completely aside from any discussion of an afterlife.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      One other thing to note Chad, if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the forbidden fruit, how old would Adam have gotten to before he died and went to heaven?

      "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23

      March 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      Sorry, for the slow reply...

      You seem to be ignoring the evidence and its implications.

      While I agree that "Not understanding doesnt make it inaccurate," the fact is we do understand that flowering plants came well after land animals first appeared. This is a direct contradiction to the order of Genesis account and your own (mis)understanding does not change that. Likewise birds before land animals, plants before fish, etc.

      "never be against the bible, it has yet to be wrong."

      I showing how it is wrong with these very posts.
      =============

      "you seemed determined to ignore mountains of exegesis that dont agree with the young earth view.. wonder why "

      Because as I've posted multiple times there are issues with both YE and OE.
      1) If YE, then the timeframes betweeen events make no sense.
      2) If OE, then the words "morning" and "evening" make no sense.
      3) In both cases, the sun being "made" on "day" four makes no sense.

      "could have simply been light for 24 hours, which would appear like the sun stopped”

      Then the Bible is inaccurate when it says that "The sun stopped...", correct?

      (@Chad's reply to @Chuckles)
      "Just as 'this day is endless', or 'he is as strong as an ox' and 'the Lord is a strong tower' are expressions, so (I believe) Joshua 10 is referring to light being granted to the Israelites for a full 24 hours somehow (I know not how)."

      Ah... so you saying that it is just figurative, is that right?
      Similar to the "empty tomb" being figurative, perhaps?
      =============

      of the flood:
      "A. there is an excellent exegetical case to be made for a non-planet wide flood, and we certainly have evidence for that.
      B. Alternatively, since we don’t know when the flood happened, we can’t know for sure that the flood wasn’t planet wide."

      Geologically, I don't disagree with A, but the Bible does, "all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered" Gen 7:19
      How does knowing when it was supposed to have occurred have anything to do with its extent?
      ============

      "you may not like it, but there are other legitimate views"

      There were many attempts to reconcile the discrepancy but none have held up. The section you linked to concludes with this:
      A few authors have suggested that the Gospel of Luke correctly refers to the census of 6, and that the account in the Gospel of Matthew is wrong,[74][75] however the majority view among modern scholars is that there was only one census, in 6, and the author of the Gospel of Luke deviated from history in connecting it with the birth of Jesus.[76][77][78] In The Birth of the Messiah (1977), a detailed study of the infancy narratives of Jesus, the American scholar Raymond E. Brown concluded that "this information is dubious on almost every score, despite the elaborate attempts by scholars to defend Lucan accuracy."[79] W. D. Davies and E. P. Sanders ascribe this to simple error: “on many points, especially about Jesus’ early life, the evangelists were ignorant … they simply did not know, and, guided by rumour, hope or supposition, did the best they could”.

      Apparently "majority" of "modern scholars" is sufficient for you when dealing with the existence of Jesus, but not for the year of his birth.
      Why is that?

      March 13, 2013 at 10:40 am |
    • Chad

      @Saraswati "What's scary is that you really believe this, not because it is supported by any psychological evidence or even your experience of normal sane people"
      @Chad "??? it's supported by this very thread! What on earth are you referring to? The data is right in front of you and you refuse to examine it"

      ========
      @MD " Eden was an invented location much like Heliopolis was for the Egyptians"
      @Chad "how do you know that?? Pure speculation. Moses invented... what?
      He lead them out of egypt, with God making the way, parting the sea, tower of smoke by day, fire by night, ten commandments, all of that is real, but Moses invented Eden???
      thats, nonsensical.

      If you want to say that the first 5 books of the bible are fiction, you need to articulate at what point all of that was invented..
      🙂

      ===
      @MD "Cain, aka Seth"
      @Chad "oh man, now there is someone that has no familiarity with the bible 🙂
      Seth is Cain's younger brother.

      question: how in the world do you justify your criticism of the bible, when you know -0- about it???

      =======
      @ME II "1) If YE, then the timeframes betweeen events make no sense.
      2) If OE, then the words "morning" and "evening" make no sense.

      @Chad "OE, morning=beginning, evening=ending"

      @ME II "the sun being "made" on "day" four makes no sense."
      @Chad "exactly, which tells you that you are reading it wrong."

      regarding "stopped", is the bible inaccurate to call "God a strong tower"?
      no
      and no.
      you are trying to make it mean what you want it to mean so that you can criticize it.
      What did the original authors intend it to mean??

      ====
      @ME "Similar to the "empty tomb" being figurative, perhaps?"
      @Chad ":-)
      common trick, if there is anything figurative, try and exploit it.

      if the tomb was not empty, how did a movement based 100% on a physically resurrected Christ survive in the face of an occupied tomb?

      ======
      @ME II "There were many attempts to reconcile the discrepancy but none have held up"
      @Chad "I completely disagree, never bet against the accuracy of the bible. Remember the Hitt ites, Pilates existence, and the existence of numerous OT cities. All were confidently called inventions until archaeological evidence was uncovered to validate the claim.

      March 13, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Chad

      @MD "if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the forbidden fruit, how old would Adam have gotten to before he died and went to heaven?"

      =>why do you even bother attempting to come up with these little "gotchas"??

      look, you have no familiarity with the bible, what makes you think that your observations on it are going to be anything other than utter nonsense?

      If Eve had never eaten the apple, sin and death would never have entered the human race and they would still be in Eden.
      please.. do some reading.. please..

      March 13, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, Another day another dance. Don't you get dizzy from the spinning. The vast majority of the bible is disproven or neither proven nor disproven. Science disproves the creation stories – the universe, the earth, species. Science has plausible theories on origin of life and the universe. The bible has nothing. Yet you choose to believe the superstitions of ancient goatherders over science, then take the conversation at tangents over minutiae.
      You obviously trust science enough to use the internet, I presume you have been in a car or a plane or used a telephone. I presume you know someone who has visited a doctor or maybe had surgery. Yet you choose to believe the superstitions of ancient goatherders over science.
      What evidence do you have for the bible. Not the bible itself or the c&p of tangents that you post daily. There are plenty of videos from say Nova or Smithsonian, etc. illustrating the scientific explanation of the creation myths.

      March 13, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "Science disproves the creation stories"
      @Chad "no.. see above."

      @Santa the universe, the earth, species. Science has plausible theories on origin of life and the universe."
      @Chad "science has no plausible theories on origin of life, and can not by definition have a theory on the origin of the universe. The multi-verse is non natural an not scientifically testable. You always ignore that 🙂

      Science by definition can not ever disprove God, can not ever explain the origin of the universe or the fact that it obeys laws. Those are just facts, they are not up for debate.

      "Because science begins with the laws of the universe, it can not ever disprove God. Science can never explain why the laws exist, because to do so would require the existence of another law." - Leonard Mlodinow, co-author with Stephen Hawkings of "A Briefer History of Time"

      @Santa "The bible has nothing."
      @Chad "well... nothing except the answers to those questions :-)"

      March 13, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Rejecting Chad

      Why, you always ask? By the age of 13 I had pretty much gave up on all the childhood fairy tales santa etc. My final day at sunday school we heard the story of jesus healing a sick man. When it was asked of the teacher; why would jesus not cure all the sick people if he had the power, would it not be fair to cure them all? The teacher had no answer. That is when I dimissed the whole concept of a loving jesus/god, it was either just a story, like my dad said, or a petty vindictave god that did not deserve my belief. People make their own decision what to believe and what not to belive. Your obsession of why, why borders on the insane.

      March 13, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, You may as well rename yourself Lie4Him. Circular references, avoidance, tangents. As I said it's just dance for you.

      March 13, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Chad is not just a pleasant little Sub-Saharan Country

      Things God cannot or will not do:

      -Heal all the sick

      -End hunger

      -Prevent or refrain from causing birth defects

      -Save everyone from sin, death and the devil

      -Reveal himself plainly

      March 13, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "OE, morning=beginning, evening=ending"

      Please cite the basis for this. I posted citations, multiple times, for the Hebrew words used, which do not support your position.

      "exactly, which tells you that you are reading it wrong."

      I see no requirement for it to make sense. Why do you think it has to make sense?

      "regarding 'stopped', is the bible inaccurate to call 'God a strong tower'?"

      So, you are saying that "The sun stopped..." in Joshua, is figurative? What makes you think that? How do you tell which parts are figurative, metaphorical, or non-literal?
      Or is it just that anything that appears inaccurate, if taken literally, must be figurative, solely because it must be true.

      "you are trying to make it mean what you want it to mean so that you can criticize it."

      That is not an argument. I can just as easily say, you are trying to make it mean what you want it to mean so that you can support it.

      "What did the original authors intend it to mean??"

      How do you know what the original authors intended?

      Either it is figurative / metaphorical or, if literal, it is wrong, I see no other options.

      March 13, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Chad

      For centuries people thought the earth was flat and interpreted the bible as confirming that (“four corners of the earth”, “ends of the earth”, and so on), now no serious exegetical scholar believes the bible makes that claim, it is recognized now as simply man’s view distorting the biblical text translation. Ditto for earth being at the center of the universe.

      The same is true (I believe) of the “days” of Genesis 1.
      "The length of the creative days of Genesis 1 is not stated in the Bible. The Hebrew word "day" may mean a period of light between two periods of darkness, a period of light together with the preceding period of darkness, or a long period of time. All three usages occur often in the Bible. No one of them is exactly twenty-four hours, though the second one is near it. There is no indisputable indication as to which of the three is meant. The Bible gives no specific statement as to how long ago matter was created, how long ago the first day of creation began, or when the sixth day ended." - NIV Bible Dictionary, p. 240

      "Looking at the word-for-word translation of the Hebrew text, one finds this phraseology: "and was evening and was morning day X." The New International Version phrases the time markers this way: "And there was evening, and there was morning–the Xth day." The word arrangement is clearly a departure from simple and ordinary expression. It creates an ambiguity. If "day X" were intended as the noun complement for the one evening and morning together, the linking verb should appear just once, in plural form (as the King James Version renders it): "And the evening and the morning were the Xth day." We would expect the literal Hebrew to say, "and were evening and morning day X." But it does not. This syntactic ambiguity does not consti tute a proof. However, it does suggest that "day" here is to be taken in some unusual manner." - Creation and Time

      The Hebrew word ereb, translated evening also means "sunset," "ni ght" or "ending of the day." The Hebrew word boqer, translated morning, also means "sunrise," "coming of light," "beginning of the day," or "dawning," with possible metaphoric usage." In other words, evening and morning refer to the beginning and ending components of "day," however it is used. For example, "in my grandfather's day" refers to my grandfather's lifetime. So the morning and evening of his day would be his youth and old age. - Creation and Time

      Days in Hosea 6:2 refers to a year or years. "After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence."

      A ratio of 6 to 1 is found throughout the bible and is specifically called out as a pattern by which to live and work.
      “Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work”
      "For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused.”

      March 13, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "For centuries people thought the earth was flat and interpreted the bible as confirming that ('four corners of the earth', 'ends of the earth', and so on)..."

      So now the interpretation confirms what we now think? What use is the Bible if it can be re-interpreted that way?

      "...now no serious exegetical scholar believes the bible makes that claim,..."

      So what changed, the exegesis? Or the knowledge of the world and its place in the universe? Again, what use the Bible?

      "it is recognized now as simply man’s view distorting the biblical text translation."

      And how do we know the current interpretation is not also a distortion?
      What is the current interpretation of the "circle of the earth"?

      "...with possible metaphoric usage"

      So, you are claiming it is a metaphor, correct?
      Although, I didn't see any examples of the Bible using "morning" and "evening" as metaphor, but never mind that. As I said before, "Either it is figurative / metaphorical or, if literal, it is wrong, I see no other options."

      So when you say, "- no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect", do you really mean that '- no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect, when its not intended as a metaphor."
      If so, then how does one determine when a specific statement is intended as a meatphor?

      If "And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day." is a metphor, then why not the next line?
      "And God said, 'Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.'"

      In fact, why isn't all of Genesis 1 a metaphor? A metaphor for a process of natural development which the author(s) did not fully understand.

      If you claim all details accurate unless they are interpreted as metaphorical, then you have no claim accuracy at all.

      March 13, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • ME II

      Should be "... no claim of accuracy at all."

      March 13, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "So now the interpretation confirms what we now think?"
      @Chad "no, the earlier mistake of interpreting Ezekiel 7:2 for example to mean that the earth is flat was remedied. As I said before..

      =====
      @ME II "If you claim all details accurate unless they are interpreted as metaphorical, then you have no claim accuracy at all."
      @Chad "That is simply nonsense.
      The bible contains literal fact, it also contains text that was intended to be metaphor. It was written 2000-4000 years ago. We need to invest the time to understand what the original authors intended to communicate, right? That is certainly reasonable, right?

      It is nonsense to say that "well, since there is some metaphor, we can't know what is intended to be literal and what isnt".

      Your largest problem is that you are simply coming at an issue from a position of virtually no exposure to the text.
      right?
      How in the world would you ever think that you could avoid understanding something, prior to criticizing it?

      If I were to pick one thing about atheists that never ceases to amaze me, that would definitely be it. You are so convinced it's wrong, but that conviction isnt based on any understanding, investigation, or rational thought.. If you cant be bothered to read it, why spend so much time criticizing it??

      March 13, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "The bible contains literal fact, it also contains text that was intended to be metaphor."

      The question is, how exactly do you tell which should be taken literally and which metaphorically?

      @ME II "the sun being "made" on "day" four makes no sense."
      @Chad "exactly, which tells you that you are reading it wrong."

      If any thing that doesn't make sense is metaphor, simply because it doesn't make sense, then there is no criteria at all. With such logic, one can claim 2 + 2 = 5 as a metaphor.

      As you explained the world being flat was consider literal, until otherwise found false. Then it was 'obviously' (my word) metaphor.

      "no, the earlier mistake of interpreting Ezekiel 7:2 for example to mean that the earth is flat was remedied. As I said before.."

      You claimed is was "remedied", but not how. What exactly changed the interpretation from literal to metaphor? Other than the science, of course. Does the Bible specify somewhere that the earth is round like ball (dur, Isa 22:18) rather than a circle (chug, Isa 40:22)?

      "Your largest problem is", since we are offering irrelevant opinions on each other, is that you assume that the Bible is "inerrant", if that is right term, when such a thing needs to demonstrated, not assumed.

      March 13, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "The question is, how exactly do you tell which should be taken literally and which metaphorically?"
      @Chad "start by reading it"

      @ME II "since we are offering irrelevant opinions on each other"
      @Chad "I dont consider it irrelevant to ask why someone who is criticizing a text is unfamiliar with it. Do you? The familiarity of the person with that which the propose to criticize seems entirely relevant. Dont you think?

      March 13, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "start by reading it"

      So, you don't know?

      "I dont consider it irrelevant to ask why someone who is criticizing a text is unfamiliar with it."

      Just because I don't agree with your interpretation does not mean that I am unfamiliar with it.

      Have I misquoted anything? (more than a time or two, anyway. accidents happen)

      Have I not posted relevent quotes to the topic at hand?

      Have I not posted relevent quotes supporting my arguements?

      Have I not asked questions that are pertenient to the quotes provided?

      Seriously, how exactly do you define familiar?

      =======

      Also, I see you didn't answer the question.

      March 13, 2013 at 5:46 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "The question is, how exactly do you tell which should be taken literally and which metaphorically?"
      @Chad "start by reading it"
      @ME II "So, you don't know?"
      @Chad "lol, nice dodge attempt. No, what I'm saying is that when you read it, you'll get a better sense of what ancient Hebrew text is, what is being said.

      actually, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would actually make a claim that a text could be criticized by a person who was unfamiliar with it.. only atheists with the bible would even think to try and attempt that.

      Here's the thing, "day" vs "age" has been debated for centuries.
      centuries.

      you dont realize that fact, because you never bothered to do any investigation.

      It is quite foolish to think that the world was created in six days in a space of time at all. Why? Because every period of time is a series of days and ni ghts, and these can only be made such by the movement of the sun as it goes over and under the earth; but the sun is part of heaven, so that time is confessedly more recent than the world. It would there be correct to say that the world was not made in time, but that time was formed by means of the world, for it was heaven's movement that was the index of the nature of time. When, then, Moses says, "he finished His work on the sixth day," we must understand him to be adducing not a quanti ty of days, but a perfect number, namely six. - Philo Judaeus Died in 50 AD.

      March 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "lol, nice dodge attempt."

      lol. Actually, you were dodging the question that I posed.

      "actually, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would actually make a claim that a text could be criticized by a person who was unfamiliar with it.. only atheists with the bible would even think to try and attempt that."

      Who made that claim?

      "Here's the thing, 'day' vs 'age' has been debated for centuries."

      I'm not arguing for day or age, I see issues with either, or perhaps, I see issues regardless of either.

      I fail to see how a first century theologian's argument about a flat earth ("over and under"?) or worlds "not made in time" is relevant. If you are trying to say that the idea of an "age" is old, then I wouldn't disagree, nor have I.

      The question, the recent one anyway, was how did the interpretation of a flat earth as metaphor come about, purely in an exegetical manner.
      You claim a literal interpretation was "remedied" and I asked how exactly. Or was it just that a literal interpretation became untenable in the face of evidence to the contrary?

      My apologies but I must leave soon.

      March 13, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Stay tuned for more ridiculous rationalizations, such as:
      "Water" doesn't really mean water; "bird" does not mean bird; "air" does not mean air; "animal" does not mean animal; and "earth" does not really mean earth. And Chad hasn't even begun on "stars" and "light" and "heavens," yet!!

      All coming right up next on the "Chaaaaaaaaad Channnnnnnel!"...

      March 13, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "Who made that claim?"
      @Chad "that's what you are doing 🙂 , attempting to criticize when you arent familiar with it.
      Have you even ever read the entire bible?
      let me guess, "what does that have to do with anything" lol "

      =====
      @ME II "The question, the recent one anyway, was how did the interpretation of a flat earth as metaphor come about, purely in an exegetical manner."
      @Chad "people mistakenly thought that the phrase "four corners of the earth" indicated that the earth was flat.
      when that's not what the original author intended it to mean.

      ======
      @ME II "You claim a literal interpretation was "remedied" and I asked how exactly."
      @Chad "no, what I said was ""no, the earlier mistake of interpreting Ezekiel 7:2 for example to mean that the earth is flat was remedied."..

      =====
      The task is always to find out what the original author intended to say, what they meant, what they would say to you now if you were talking with them.
      The mistake is always reading something into the text that the author never intended.

      March 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "Have you even ever read the entire bible?"
      Yes, I have.
      But also I doubt it matters, because I suspect, you will still claim I'm not familiar with it.

      "...that's not what the original author intended it to mean."

      Ah, yes. That is the question, how do you know? In light of your rationale around making a sun on day/age four, I am forced to wonder.

      "no, what I said was 'no, the earlier mistake of interpreting Ezekiel 7:2 for example to mean that the earth is flat was remedied.'.."

      Okay, so how was the "mistake" "remedied", if that is the nuance you are indicating? In other words, what exactly indicates the 'author's intention' of metaphor versus the mistaken intention of literal? And, does that apply to the other references to a flat earth?

      "The mistake is always reading something into the text that the author never intended."

      I agree, hence my questions. Why is morning not morning, evening not evening, sun stopped not sun stopped, animal not animal, fruit not fruit, made not made, governor not governor, etc., etc., etc.?

      March 13, 2013 at 7:26 pm |
    • clarity

      Chad: "The mistake is always reading something into the text that the author never intended."

      Hence Over 40,000 denominations of insanity . . .

      March 13, 2013 at 7:30 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad '"The mistake is always reading something into the text that the author never intended."
      @ME II "I agree, hence my questions. Why is morning not morning, evening not evening... "

      @Chad "well, that's where reading and investigation come in 🙂 you should try it."

      March 13, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • Chad

      to rephrase the question better: why is `ereb not "evening" when that word is used as "that point when the sun ceases to be visible as the planet completes a rotation signalling the end of a day"

      saying "why is evening not evening" is pretty misleading... it ignores the fact we are dealing with a translation or an extremely old source

      March 14, 2013 at 9:09 am |
    • midwest rail

      " The sun stopped in the sky " is a straight forward statement. IF some other idea was intended, why not simply relate THAT idea ?

      March 14, 2013 at 9:20 am |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "why is `ereb not 'evening'"

      That is a valid point, hence my post earlier in this thread and a previous thread, which you did not address:
      (that's where reading comes in 🙂 you should try it.)

      quote from previous discussion:

      'beginning' and 'end' did though an alternate translation of that word."
      What alternate translation? Every version uses "mornging", "evening", and "day", as far as I can tell (http://bible.cc/genesis/1-5.htm).

      The hebrew word "ereb" is only translated as:
      "evening (114), evening* (1), evenings (2), every evening (1), night (2), sunset (1), twilight (11)."
      (http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6153.htm)

      The hebrew word "boqer" is only translated as:
      "dawn (1), dawn* (2), day (1), daybreak (1), every morning (5), morning (195), mornings (2), soon (1), tomorrow morning (1)."
      (http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/1242.htm)

      So, based on my investigation, "ereb" does translate to "evening" and not "ending" as you claim. So, why do you keep trying to read "ending" into the word "ereb"?
      ========

      "saying 'why is evening not evening' is pretty misleading... it ignores the fact we are dealing with a translation or an extremely old source"

      "misleading"? I don't think it's misleading, which implies some deception, especially since it seems to be a fairly straight-forward translation, at least according to one site, but I'll admit that your "ereb not evening" is more accurate.
      =======

      I'm curious, due to the very act of translation, do you think it is possible to fully understand the author's intent?

      March 14, 2013 at 10:15 am |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      p.s. You still didn't answer the question of how did the "mistake" get "remedied" in an purely exegetical manner.

      March 14, 2013 at 10:19 am |
    • Chad

      @midwest rail " The sun stopped in the sky " is a straight forward statement. IF some other idea was intended, why not simply relate THAT idea ?"
      @Chad "so is "you have made them drink tears by the bowlful"
      some times that is simply the way the author used the language.

      ====
      @ME II "What alternate translation? Every version uses "morning", "evening", and "day", as far as I can tell"
      @Chad Even the English word "morning" has different meanings
      Definition of MORNING
      1a : dawn
      b : the time from sunrise to noon
      c : the time from midnight to noon
      2: a period of first development : beginning

      ====
      @ME II p.s. "You still didn't answer the question of how did the "mistake" get "remedied" in an purely exegetical manner."
      @Chad "I thought I had answered it, I guess I dont understand what you mean by "in an purely exegetical manner"?
      People were reading that verse to mean that the earth was flat because that's what they thought the earth was. But, that most likely, was not the original authors intent.

      March 14, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • midwest rail

      Now you are merely being disingenuous. " You have made them drink tears by the bowlful ", while a straight forward statement, clearly uses LANGUAGE that lends itself to metaphor. The previous does not.

      March 14, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "some times that is simply the way the author used the language."

      But how do you justify the way you think the author intended to use the language?
      Joshua is quite specific: "The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." Delayed going down certainly seems to imply that it was in fact the sun that stopped, not some other celestial or terrestrial lighting event, which wouldn't have an expectation of "going down" at the end of the day.
      ======

      "Even the English word 'morning' has different meanings"

      So now you are using an English definition to justify the use of a Hebrew word? I doubt the author(s) of Genesis had that in mind.
      Is there an English word for multi-lingual equivocation?
      ======

      What I'm asking is, how do you justify statements like the following, purely from the text?

      "But, that most likely, was not the original authors intent."

      Why was that not the authors intent? Because it seems ridiculous now? But at the time it may not have seemed ridiculous at all. In fact, it may have seemed ridiculous at that time to suggest a round Earth, e.g. 'of course the Earth is flat, otherwise everyone would fall off.'

      March 14, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      "- Historicity of the empty tomb"

      Oh, Chad that's so delightfully hilarious.

      Faith is one thing – which is fine, but interpreting something that can only be believed through faith by inventing 'evidence' is truly grasping at straws. Or in your case strawmen.

      March 14, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • Chad

      @GOPer "Faith is one thing – which is fine, but interpreting something that can only be believed through faith by inventing 'evidence' is truly grasping at straws. Or in your case strawmen"

      =>you're kidding, right?
      The historicity of the empty tomb is extremely solid..

      WHY the tomb was empty, is the question.

      =========
      @ME II "the thing you dont want to understand is that:
      a. we have in our possession a text written 2000-4200 years ago
      b. the people who wrote it are now dead
      c. seeking to understand what the author intended is a task, it is an area of scholarly research.
      d. this task is no different than the task of understanding what other ancient authors intended
      e. there are many different mechanisms that modern historians use when seeking to understand the intent of the original author, none of that is unique to the examination of the bible
      f. interpretation of ancient text is often colored by our current understanding, none of that is unique to the examination of the bible.

      the reality is, you have a particular interpretation that you want the bible to adhere to, because you feel that interpretation gives you a better basis for criticizing it.
      What you are steadfastly avoiding, is the reality of the process of historical examination.

      March 14, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Chad is a little country and a little man

      Show us the empty tomb.

      March 14, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Chad

      The fact that the tomb of Jesus is NOT now, nor has it ever been, an object of veneration (unlike the tombs of Confucius, Mohammed for example) is incredibly powerful evidence that it was found unoccupied.

      March 14, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Chad is a little country and a little man

      Genghis Khan among others – burial site unknown. Jesus much less venerated – burial site unknown.

      March 14, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Chad

      Genghis Khan more venerated than Jesus Christ?

      A. you're kidding.. right?
      B. The reason the his burial place wasnt found, was because they killed everyone who knew..

      Genghis Khan asked to be buried without markings. After he died, his body was returned to Mongolia and presumably to his birthplace in the Khentii Aimag, where many assume he is buried somewhere close to the Onon River. According to legend, the funeral escort killed anyone and anything across their path, to conceal where he was finally buried.[citation needed] After the tomb was completed, the slaves who built it were massacred, and then the soldiers who killed them were also killed

      March 14, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Indeed. Chad venerates the empty tomb. Many others probably do as well and have over the centuries. Why does no one know where it is?

      March 14, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Chad

      Because Jesus isnt there any more..

      March 14, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad
      "The fact that the tomb of Jesus is NOT now, nor has it ever been, an object of veneration is incredibly powerful evidence that it was found unoccupied."

      There's no evidence that Jesus was ever there.

      March 14, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Back with your daily dose of BS. Science is catching up to you.
      Higgs boson confirmed at CERN, you wouldn't have mass without it Chad.
      Cosmic origin can be explained by science despite your denial. I will take Velikin's word over yours.
      Entangled particles challenge the second law of thermodynamics
      Hubble is making new discoveries every day that challenge the apologists stand on almos all their 'god did it" stance.
      Your hero worship of Criag is on shaky ground as he has been debunked by his equals including Velinkin.
      When the Plank telescope gets up and running with even more sophiscated science, you are even going to have to get more disingenios or redo the whole apologist schtick, as usual.

      March 14, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "There's no evidence that Jesus was ever there."
      @Chad "how do you figure? we have many ancient docs from eye witnesses that say he was buried, and the tomb was found empty.."

      ======
      @JMEF "Higgs boson confirmed at CERN, you wouldn't have mass without it"
      @Chad "right.. where did that come from? 🙂

      ======
      @JMEF "Cosmic origin can be explained by science despite your denial. I will take Velikin's word over yours."
      @Chad "Cosmic origin can not be explained by science 🙂
      Vilenkin does not dispute that

      ======
      @JMEF "Entangled particles challenge the second law of thermodynamics"
      @Chad "so... what?

      ======
      @JMEF "Hubble is making new discoveries every day that challenge the apologists stand on almos all their 'god did it" stance."
      @Chad "??? how do you figure? you mean young earth creationists?
      examples please 🙂

      March 14, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      How do you resolve this Chad? You believe there is evidence that the tomb was empty, but there is only hearsay evidence that there was a tomb at all.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • Chad

      you should also understand that by saying this:
      "is it (cosmic origin) the proof of the existence of God, maybe, that is far to simple, but it gives no advantage of the theologian over the scientist." - Alexander Vilenkin

      Vilenkin is saying that "yes, our universe had an origin, a beginning, however, that doesnt help the theologian who still has to explain how God began"..

      March 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, None of your tangents and misdirection prove that there is a god and especially do not prove that your god exists. If you feel that a god can just be without a creator why can't the universe – no need for a middleman.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa "If you feel that a god can just be without a creator why can't the universe – no need for a middleman."
      @Chad "because the universe:
      A. Had a beginning
      B. Cant have created itself (it is metaphysically impossible for being to arise from absence of being)

      God had no beginning, our universe did.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • Chad is a little country and a little man

      THe thing that is eternal may not be alive in any way. It may n ot care even if it is. Maybe universes aren't creations just something like its farts.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I see that Chad is still unable to be honest about what the science actually says. Truly pathetic when someone needs to be so dishonest to delude themselves into believing what they want.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • JMEF

      Thursday March 14, 2013 CERN releasese a statement that the Higgs boson has been found as earlier predicted.
      You like Craig twist the words of physcists,, cosmic origin CAN be explained by purely scienrific means.
      One of your points you used to rely on was the laws of thermodynamics are you abandoing that point now.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad
      "God had no beginning, our universe did."

      What evidence do you have for that?

      March 14, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF "cosmic origin CAN be explained by purely scienrific means."
      @Chad "sorry, no.. it is not up for debate. Science (the study of the natural) can not EVER explain the non-natural origin of our universe. By definition.

      ====
      @JMEF "Entangled particles challenge the second law of thermodynamics"
      @JMEF "One of your points you used to rely on was the laws of thermodynamics are you abandoing that point now."
      @Chad "Sorry, no.. we've been thru this before. I have never used the argument that second law of thermodynamics somehow contradicts "evolution".. you are simply confused.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "the thing you dont want to understand is that:..."
      "...it is an area of scholarly research." "there are many different mechanisms that modern historians use..."

      Is that an appeal to authority?

      "the reality is, you have a particular interpretation that you want the bible to adhere to, because you feel that interpretation gives you a better basis for criticizing it."

      Opinion, irrelevant.

      "What you are steadfastly avoiding, is the reality of the process of historical examination."

      It was a simple question. How do you justify the following statement?

      "But, that most likely, was not the original authors intent."

      March 14, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "The historicity of the empty tomb is extremely solid."

      It's a null hypothesis and by definition, inconclusive. Plus there's no independent evidence even to support a null hypothesis.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Search. debunking William Lane Craig you will find that what he states is refuted by those he is using to construct his arguements. Including Velikin's conclusion that cosmic origin could be descibed in purely scientific terms. Try and catch up and really, really try to be honest, for a change.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
    • JMEF

      Not at all confused, in your often posted 5 points to "god did it" not just any old god but the Judeo Isreal god, you mention the laws of thermodynamics. You remind me of an old timey christian apologist, we can't keep saying the earth is the center of the universe and the earth is flat, it won't work anymore. Love to see how you all, including Craig are going to twist the discoveries to suit your delusion.

      March 14, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Prediction of what you and other apologists will cherry pick from todays CERN statemrnt...
      "strongly indicates it is the Higgs Boson." and what you will overlook.....
      Joe Incandela "it is clear that we are working with a Higgs boson."
      Dave Charlton "They point to the new particle having the spin-parity of a Higgs boson as in the Standard Model."
      Fce it Chad you or the new pope for that matter can't have mass without the Higgs boson.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Chad

      @GOPer "It's a null hypothesis and by definition, inconclusive."
      @Chad " you are confused on what the "null hypothesis" is.. The tomb being found empty is not a "null hypothesis"

      The null hypothesis typically corresponds to a general or default position. For example, the null hypothesis might be that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena[1] or that a potential treatment has no effect

      ====
      @GOPer "Plus there's no independent evidence even to support a null hypothesis."
      @Chad "Incorrect, we have multiple independent attestations of the empty tomb.

      This may help you understand:

      Using the Bible as partial biographical evidence of Jesus is not as completely insane or wall-bangingly circular as it may first seem. Although the gospels are generally published in one compendium known as The Bible, they are separate doc uments and almost certainly were written by separate authors

      Source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ

      March 14, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF "Entangled particles challenge the second law of thermodynamics"
      @JMEF "One of your points you used to rely on was the laws of thermodynamics are you abandoing that point now."
      @Chad "Sorry, no.. we've been thru this before. I have never used the argument that second law of thermodynamics somehow contradicts "evolution".. you are simply confused.
      @JMEF "Not at all confused, in your often posted 5 points to "god did it" not just any old god but the Judeo Isreal god, you mention the laws of thermodynamics"

      @Chad "I use the fac that energy can neither be created or destroyed as an argument.
      Your original post was that "Entangled particles challenge the second law of thermodynamics", which has nothing to do with energy conservation.

      so, as I said before, you are confused.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • clarity

      Chad: "@Chad "Incorrect, we have multiple independent attestations of the empty tomb."

      independent attestations? – exactly WHO?
      and so what. an empty tomb is an empty tomb; evidently in that area there were lots of tombs in various states of use and age.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      To finish your RationalWiki quote

      And if such a person existed, it is equally likely that major broad themes are based in reality; he likely would have been one of the many teachers or self-proclaimed prophets of the time[16] and he probably ticked off the wrong people and found himself dead.[14] It is likely the rest is highly embellished, made up, or recycled from other mythology.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • Chad

      @Clarity "independent attestations? – exactly WHO?"
      @Chad "eye witnesses: John, Peter, Matthew, Mark."

      @Clarity "and so what. an empty tomb is an empty tomb; evidently in that area there were lots of tombs in various states of use and age."
      @Chad "not just any empty tomb, the tomb in which Jesus was placed after he was crucified.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • Dahc

      Those "multiple attestations" have 1, 2, 3, and many women going to the tomb, where they find it open and sealed, and each finds a varying number oftotally different people there, and then they woman/women do totally different and utterly incompatible things, depending on the account.

      Those attestations are so contradictory and incompatble that any detective would immediately realize he is being lied to.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II,
      agreed, rationalwiki (for those that dont know it, a site dedicated to "debunking" Christianity), is of the opinion that:
      1. Using the Bible as partial biographical evidence of Jesus is not as completely insane or wall-bangingly circular as it may first seem. Although the gospels are generally published in one compendium known as The Bible, they are separate doc uments and almost certainly were written by separate authors
      2. Jesus was a real historical figure, crucified under Pontius Pilate for angering the Jewish leadership of the time.

      thanks for pointing that out!

      March 14, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • ME II

      Because the gospels were deliberately meddled with, mistranslated many times, and changed over the decades of oral traditions, there is no sound basis for accepting them in their totality as literal truth or trustworthy historical docu[]ments.
      (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ)

      March 14, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • clarity

      Chad – exactly who wrote the gospel accounts that allege "eyewitness" accounts?

      March 14, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Chad

      LOL, that claim puts rationalwiki outside of any serious scholarship. That's why no serious atheist EVER makes that claim when debating the topic.

      The New Testament has been preserved in more than 5,800 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Ethiopic and Armenian. Even if the original Greek versions were lost, the entire New Testament could still be as sembled from the translations.[106] In addition, there are so many quotes from the New Testament in early church docu ments and commentaries that the entire New Testament could also be as sembled from these alone.[106] Not all biblical manuscripts come from orthodox Christian writers. For example, the Gnostic writings of Valentinus come from the 2nd century AD, and these Christians were regarded as heretics by the mainstream church.[107] The sheer number of witnesses presents unique difficulties, but it also gives scholars a better idea of how close modern Bibles are to the original versions.[107] On noting the large number of surviving ancient manuscripts, Bruce Metzger sums up the view on the issue by saying "The more often you have copies that agree with each other, especially if they emerge from different geographical areas, the more you can cross-check them to figure out what the original docu ment was like. The only way they'd agree would be where they went back genealogically in a family tree that represents the descent of the manuscripts.[106]
      A similar type of textual criticism is applied to other ancient texts.[108] There are far fewer witnesses to cla ssical texts than to the Bible, and unlike the New Testament where the earliest witnesses are often within a couple decades of the original, the earliest existing manuscripts of most clas sical texts were written about a millennium after their composition. For example, the earliest surviving copies of parts of the Roman historian Tacitus' main work, the Annals of Imperial Rome (written in 116 AD), come from a single manuscript written in 850 AD, although for other parts of his work, the earliest copies come from the 11th century, while other parts of his work have been lost.[106] The earliest copies of The Jewish War by Josephus (originally composed in the 1st century AD), in contrast, come from nine manuscripts written in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries.[106] After the Bible, the next best preserved ancient work is Homer's Iliad, with 650 copies originating about 1,000 years after the original copy.[106] Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War (written in the 50s BC) survives in nine copies written in the 8th century.[109] Thucydides' history of the Peloponesian War and Herodotus' history of the Persian War (both written in the 5th century BC) survives in about eight early copies, the oldest ones dating from the 10th century AD.[109] Biblical scholar F. F. Bruce has said "the evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of clas sical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning...It is a curious fact that historians have often been much readier to trust the New Testament records than have many theologians

      March 14, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "thanks for pointing that out!"

      Your welcome. I have no problem with saying it's likely that someone named Jesus existed. It's most of the other stuff that is the problem. Or as RationalWiki puts it:

      Historians focusing on this era generally accept that there was likely some fellow named Jesus who lived in Palestine roughly two millennia ago, had a very small following of people studying his views, was killed by the government for some such reason, and whose life became pivotal to some of the world's largest religions. Beyond this, however, there is doubt over the accuracy of any of the descriptions of his life, as described in the Bible or as understood by his believers.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      I'm assuming that LOL was for my RWiki quote. The key to it is this:
      " there is no sound basis for accepting them in their totality as literal truth or trustworthy historical docu[]ments."

      In other words, just because they are sufficient to assume someone name Jesus likely did exist, does not mean that they are sufficient to assume He was physically resurrected, or any other particular event.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      I will let others judge on your comments so far, but no response on the CERN announcement today? Your whole premise is falling apart, the creation of the universe can have a scientific explanation. As a deist I accept the idea of a creator but not a supernatural creator and my creator could just have a scientific explanation, no god. For sure I reject the religions of the world that there is some god looking over my shoulder and will pass judgement on my actions thar sir is a scam perpatrated by the hustlers of the religions.

      March 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      "The null hypothesis typically corresponds to a general or default position. For example, the null hypothesis might be that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena[1] or that a potential treatment has no effect."

      Precisely. A null hypothesis. The empty tomb means just that – being that there is no corpse in the tomb. (It's still not verifiably historical by the way.)

      It does not mean that the corpse woke up and walked out, when there are plenty of more plausible means of the tomb being empty. The heavy stone was put there by people. People could as easily take it away as put it there.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:07 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF,
      you seem to be extremely confused on a couple of topics:

      1. What "deism" as a belief refers to: Deism is a position concerning the relationship between "the Creator" and the natural world. "The Creator" stands apart from the world, and is therefor not a part of the world. "The Creator" is non-natural (supernatural).
      2. What "science" is: namely the investigation of the natural world only. It can not, by definition, investigate non-natural entities such as the multi-verse.
      3. What "supernatural" means: non-natural and supernatural are synonyms.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
    • Holy Hallucinations 28

      Craetionists Fun

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXhfs4W8Qs

      SAYS IT ALL HERE

      March 14, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Chad

      NON casual agent religious BS

      Peace

      Have a swell dance !

      Bethany and Chad sitting in a tree K I S S I N G

      March 14, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • Chad

      @GOPer,
      1. The tomb was found empty
      2. How the tomb came to be empty is a different question

      the "null hypothesis" has nothing to do with either..

      March 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • Lenn

      Chad
      ""The Creator" is non-natural (supernatural)."

      On our level, maybe, but we are "creators" who make un-natural things, who are still natural within our world. Any "creator" who could have created our world un-naturally could have been just a natural part of his own world. If we're talking about God, and if he wasn't "created", then he was a natural part of wherever he was prior to creating the universe. So, any way you slice it, there is no "supernatural" unless you want to extend that meaning to simple acts of man making things.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      The null hypothesis in this case would be that the tomb was empty by natural means. The alternative hypothesis would be the tomb was empty by supernatural means. Now to prove the alternative hypothesis, you'll have to prove that a) supernatural events can happen and exist within this universe and b) someone find hard, physical evidence that shows jesus was ressurected and walked out on his own volition.

      Since you can't supply evidence for either a) or b) except beyong attempting to prove the verascity of the bible (which you fail horribly at on a daily basis) there's no other choice but to reject the alternative hypothesis in favor of the null hypothesis.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • Chad

      @Lenn " we are "creators" who make un-natural things"
      =>no,
      as used in the context of this thread, "natural" refers to "anything and everything in our universe".
      By definition, we can not create any non-natural thing (something that existed outside our universe).

      March 14, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • clarity

      Meanwhile, several early Christians like Justin Martyr are standing there in the mid 2nd century blaming the devil for the gospels looking like mere copies of other earlier writings. "Don't look at that man behind he curtain" said the great and powerful OZ.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      You really are something changing the definition of words to suit your purpose. The only things that are supernatural comes from the minds of humans, the only things natural comes from the minds of humans, it is how we define our existance, our enviroment. Fiction in our minds can be anything, Star Wars, Zeus, Jesus, endless imanigination. I can touch a tree, drink water, learn about gravity, understand the periodic table, but untill someone can prove they cure people by their touch consistantly or raise people from the dead etc. it is fiction. The great delusion based on the mamilian instinct of dominance.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF,
      you are confusing "natural" vs "non-natural" with "fiction" vs "non-fiction"

      please consult a dictionary...

      March 14, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chuckles "null hypothesis in this case would be that the tomb was empty by natural means. "

      =>no, lol

      I could claim the null hypothesis is that God resurrected Jesus, forcing you to prove the alternative 🙂

      March 14, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      I am not at all confused, you want to believe in your supernatural god that is beyond reason and logic, you could just as easily replace your belief with any other god/belief system but are too deluded to see that if what you maintain is true. Why do not humans believe as you do?

      March 14, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      Wrong, The only way to flip the hypothesis like you would like to is to prove that god of the bible and supernatural not only exist within this world, but that god actively does miracles on earth.

      If you could even prove 1 single event that broke a law of nature, just one, you might have something there so we would have to rethink what the null and alternative hypothesis' would be, but you can't.

      So go on Chad, show me one instance, with verifiable, empiracle evidence that the laws of nature can be broken on earth and I will then concede that the null and alternative hypothesis could be flipped.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • the troof

      When someone is nasty
      or treats you poorly,
      don't take it personally.

      It says nothing about you
      but a lot about them.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      troof, It may also say something about you.

      March 14, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • the troof

      Well duh.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      You mean natural versus supernatural never been proven, non fiction reliable evidence versus fiction which we know only exists in the mind of the author..try being honest for a change.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
    • Lenn

      Chad

      Oops, posted in tread above:

      Man-made vs natural aside, if we were ever to create another universe artificially then we would be "supernatural" relative to that universe, right? If there really was a creator of this universe it would have been a natural part of it's own universe, or whatever you want to call the "place" where it lived. The argument then goes that, eventually, some natural cause would simply have to be the cause of the origin of all existence.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
    • Science

      Science

      Hey bethanyl still out there and it works that damn url

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/comment-page-77/#comments

      March 14, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chuckles "Wrong, The only way to flip the hypothesis like you would like to is to prove that god of the bible and supernatural not only exist within this world, but that god actively does miracles on earth"

      =>Ahh..
      thanks for confirming that you are discounting a non-natural event from the pool of possible explanations before the discussion even starts 🙂

      that's called bias

      March 14, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Oops, posted on the wrong thread

      @Chad

      Oh Chad, it's adorable that you think so. Like I pointed out before, if you can show me one verifiable, empiracly proven supernatural event that broke a law of nature, I'd be more ready to accept that it's possible for a supernatural event to occur and would allow for a null hypothesis to be that the tomb was empty due to a supernatural event.

      You have not been able to provide anything that proves events that break natural laws can occur thus my "bias" is the same "bias" that I have that 2+2 will ALWAYS = 4.

      The real question is who is more bias in this instance? The person who doesn't believe in supernatural events and supposes that everything can be explained by natural events which has yet to be proven false, who the guy (thats you) who believes in supernatural events in lieu of natural events based on 0 evidence?

      The only bias person in this instance chad, is you my dear, empty headed friend.

      March 14, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      What kind of grasping at straws sh!t was that? Bias? That accusation? In this context? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

      Chad, your arguments aren't even arguments and your "beliefs" have no value or power over critical thought. To borrow a phrase, cha, cha, cha.

      March 14, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Intresting you would use non-natural instead of supernatural in your posts since you think they are synonyms, why, makes your arguements less ridiculous, just asking? Anyway are you familiar with historical fiction? Take Winds of War by Wouk, who created a fictional character and placed the character into actual events and came up with a damn fine book but not really believable, sounds just like the bible, but Winds of War only needed one REAL author.

      March 14, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chuckles "The real question is who is more bias in this instance? The person who doesn't believe in supernatural events and supposes that everything can be explained by natural events which has yet to be proven false,"

      =>you would be the biased one, as you are excluding from the pool of live options anything not natural 🙂
      that's why your logic is always so messed up in your arguments. You have always tried to dance around acknowledging that you are indeed a naturalist.

      non-natural events: origin of the universe

      March 14, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      What's all this then? All this to dispose of a thoroughly discredited dabbler in biblical exegesis? Chad should be left to mutter to himself. He's never even sufficiently defined his God of Israel so that anyone besides himself, anyone from Israel in particular, might know it well enough to even make a start at believing in it.

      March 14, 2013 at 7:59 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      Amazing how you go into turtle mode, just ignore the questions that are put to you or answer a question with a question. These are fine debating techniques but they allow you to be the dishonest troll that you are. You have reached your conclusion, god of Judeo-Isreal, jumped in the cab, put it in reverse, and try to make your point in the past. You poor troll, science is going to leave you so far behind.

      March 14, 2013 at 8:10 pm |
    • Chad

      was there a question in there somewhere?

      March 14, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      I'm not dancing around anything, I've always said this and will. If you want to label me a "naturalist" so be it, but don't try and pretend like this is some new revelation for you.

      Next, the origin of the universe is a single event, not events.

      Third, considering we have no idea what the conditions were pre big bang, you can't say with certainty that the big bang itself was non-natural

      Fourth, like another points out, "non-natural" and "supernatural" might be synonyms but they are not synonymous. You can't always substi.tute one for the other, doubly so in this case. The great expansion from a tiny singularity might be classified as a "non-natural" event only because we don't see singularities expanding a gigantic rates all the time, but we also know that singularities within this universe follow natural laws unlike the first event which we have no idea.

      So in summation, it is not in anyway bias to discount a supernatural event being the default position of a hypothesis. Here's an example:

      If you go to Africa and go to a village. A person gets sick and the villagers say it's because that person angered a witch what is the default assumption here. That the person is a) sick of natural causes most likely brought on by drinking dirty water, living in dirty conditions or contracting a disease from something else or b) the witch has put a curse on him and attacking him through the shadow world? Is it bias to look at the situation without anymore information and make the null hypothesis that it is natural causes?

      Chad, give it up, calling me bias and thus throwing out my answers because I'm the one who doesn't believe in magic is probably the most childish thing you've done on this blog (and I don't think I'm being hyperbolic here).

      March 14, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      You have to admire ChadPoe's persistence although he has been quite reduced.

      March 14, 2013 at 9:08 pm |
    • Chad

      It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning - Alexander Vilenkin

      You are clinging to past history, expired theories a universe eternal in the past when you attempt to deny the fact that our universe had a beginning..

      March 14, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      I didn't say that, you are putting words in my mouth. I am simply saying we don't know what was pre big bang, it could be beyond compression. The term "nothing" doesn't begin go to describe it nor do we know what "laws" if anything of the sort existed. For a "something" to happen is not "not-natural" because we don't know what would be natural in that time. I don't think you understand this which is why you keep trying to say that the big bang was an un-natural event or that the beginning demands a creator. Neither one of this is fact, it's only assumption based on our current universal laws being applied to something that isn't of this universe.

      The best we can say is, "I don't know". That's it. that's all she wrote. We can give theories, (multi-verse, expanding/contracting universe, god) but none of them have to be correct and all of them have some evidence that lends these theories credence. The idea of god is only a first-mover theory and should not be accepted as fact just because it was the first one on the scene.

      March 15, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      Your quote is misleading. Even If correct, Vilenkin says a page or two later,
      "Is it a proof of the existence of God? That view would be far too simplistic."
      and then,
      "Also, the scientists might have been too rash to admit that the cosmic beginning cannot be described in purely scientific terms."

      If such a beginning can be described in scientific terms, could it be considered natural?

      If a multi-verse follows a standard law, or set of laws, such as gravity or an even more fundamental law, that gives rise to multiple universes, such as ours, without any need of an intelligent agent above/outside that law then wouldn't that multi-verse still be considered natural?

      March 15, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • ME II

      If some hypotheses are true...
      "Surprisingly, observational tests of the multiverse picture may in fact be possible. Anthony Aguirre, Matt Johnson, Matt Kleban and others have pointed out that a collision of our expanding bubble with another bubble in the multiverse would produce an imprint in the cosmic background radiation—a round spot of higher or lower radiation intensity. A detection of such a spot with the predicted intensity profile would provide direct evidence for the existence of other bubble universes. "
      ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=multiverse-the-case-for-parallel-universe )

      March 15, 2013 at 11:13 am |
  10. Austin

    Mystery Babylon is the name of the one world, false religion. People will worship this system. This evil corresponds with Daniels revived roman empire. Today, the the areas of the empire, that are not occupied by NATO or United states (yes I think they are involved in the one world takeover, or handing the power over to it as a sub) are Persia and Asia.

    The rest is already occupied by NATO.

    March 12, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      False religion is redundant.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • False Lie

      Who's redundant?

      March 12, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
  11. Peter

    Besides I bought some stuff at the Flea Market this weekend, and none of it had a UPC code on it so the prophecy fails.

    March 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • clarity

      lol

      March 12, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Peter : Besides I bought some stuff at the Flea Market this weekend, and none of it had a UPC code on it so the prophecy fails.

      Not quite. While the prophecy does declare that no one can buy or sell without such mark, the prophecy is a multi-step prophecy. The first step is the creation of such a mechanism (i.e. mark with 6-6-6 for buying and selling) and the second step is mandatory use. This latter step has yet to occur – which is why I specified "use of computers in transactions" rather than the mark itself.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
    • Peter

      I bet if the bible said that the only way to get into heaven was to have s.ex with a sheep that you would do it, wouldn't you Live4Him?

      March 12, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Austin

      A@ live4him

      I think you are on track.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • midwest rail

      @ Austin – as soon as you typed the first two words, you were wrong.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • 89 Genesee

      I believe that some people want Revelation, in all of its fire-and-brimstone glory, to be correct to badly that they will make up any scenario to fit, including UPC codes.
      If this is what these people choose to believe, fine.
      But it isn't a universal view, thankfully, even among BELIEVERS.
      This has been hilarious to read, thanks!

      March 12, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
  12. Over 40,000 denominations of insanity

    Some believe that celibacy is appropriate for certain people, or for certain positions. It's ridiculous. Celibacy is unnatural and will continue to cause problems for the religious institutions that employ it.

    Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but don't understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease. Realistically, many abortions could be avoided if a morning-after pill were not viewed as such an evil option. Many of these same people bring children into the world at a high pace, and then would prefer that the rest of society take over and educate their children in their particular brand of religion when they don't plan well.

    In the U.S. recently we learned of the head of LCMS chastising a minister of that church for participating in a joint service for the victims of the Newtown school shooting.

    One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage.

    One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags".

    One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri.

    One sect believes women to be subservient, while another sect in the same denomination promotes equality between the sexes.

    Conflicted right from the very beginning, Christianity continues to splinter and create divisions and more extremism as it goes.

    =================================================
    Has anything improved with Christianity since 200+ years ago?

    Thomas Jefferson, POTUS #3 (from Notes on the State of Virginia):

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    James Madison, POTUS #4, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights (from A Memorial and Remonstrance delivered to the Virginia General Assembly in 1785):

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

    John Adams, POTUS #2 (in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 09/03/1816):

    I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.

    Ben Franklin (from a letter to The London Packet, 3 June 1772):

    If we look back into history for the character of present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practised it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England, blamed persecution in the Roman church, but practised it against the Puritans: these found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.

    Thomas Paine (from The Age of Reason):

    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
    =================================================================

    March 12, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
  13. Live4Him

    @ME II : that "the government" cared about or would have wanted to quash rumors of some Jews in far away Israel, at that time.

    They were actively trying to eradicate this religion from the face of the earth. Ever hear of Nero blaming the Christians for the burning of Rome?

    @ME II : The Romans apparently didn't docu.ment the crucifixion itself

    This is the fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance – Just because the records are lost doesn't mean they were never recorded.

    @ME II : that when "Antiquities" was "published" (c 96 AD) that anyone had a clue where Jesus was supposedly buried.

    Not quite – When the RUMORS were started "that anyone had a clue where Jesus was supposedly buried." When the rumors started, everyone knew where it was but more important is where Jesus was.

    @ME II : If the "empty tomb" was so amazing and miraculous, one would think that it would have become a major shrine, and there would be little question today of where exactly it was.

    1) The tomb wasn't amazing – it was just an empty cave.
    2) Prior to about 325 AD, Christianity was pretty much outlawed in the Roman Empire, although enforcement waxed and waned over the years.
    3) Shrines didn't get started until after it was safe to admit following Christianity.
    4) The nation of Israel was destroyed in 79 AD, which would have driven Christians from that area.

    March 12, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Lie4him still hasn't figured out the "reply" button.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • clarity

      @GutterBall4Him: "Just because the records are lost doesn't mean they were never recorded."

      There were other complaints that lead to some excuses being recorded. And the excuses for such complaints? 'Diabolical mimicry'.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Science

      The LIST NUFF SAID !

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/08/belief-blogs-morning-speed-read-for-friday-february-08-2013/#comments

      Time will expose or promte which to pick ?

      March 12, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Science

      Oops dam thumb promote

      March 12, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
  14. Nostradamus

    L4H, Topher, Chad, HeavenSent, fred, tbt, etc.....
    Here is another freebie made just for you.....
    These will in the future by headless (mindless) idiots
    Be received as divine prayers.
    More available for a small fee, UPC code 0 99666 66699 8.

    March 12, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • Science

      Like telling them gravity DOES WORK wins every time !

      Moderated post

      Hey bethany

      Gravity wins no god(s} required splat goes the fairy.

      Curtains Down for the Black Hole Firewall Paradox: Making Gravity Safe for Einstein Again

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130306084151.htm

      March 12, 2013 at 6:26 am | Report abuse |

      March 12, 2013 at 9:37 am | Report abuse |

      March 12, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • Austin

      John 15:26-27
      New International Version (NIV)
      The Work of the Holy Spirit

      26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:52 am |
    • Emerald

      "John 15:26-27
      New International Version (NIV)
      The Work of the Holy Spirit"

      Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states, let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her. The crowd dissipates out of shame. That story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. It was added by later scribes. The story is not found in the oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • Austin

      You are talking to someone who has experienced a sovereign supernatural God. The Holy spirit is alive.

      Your Agenda where you are committed to speculation and proclaiming fraud in scripture, is simply your slavery and worship of the god of deceit. You are a slave to death.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • brian

      Austin lies. Nuff said.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • End Religion

      austin, we covered this. You've experienced delusion. There's nothing supernatural. Seek help.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
  15. Reality

    For an easy, safe and peaceful solution, see p. 1 of the comments.

    March 12, 2013 at 11:26 am |
  16. Hubert

    L4H

    A six in three different positions is not the same as the number six hundred and sixty-six. Also a upc code is pretty much only used for low level consumer transactions. Large transactions are usually completed with contracts. Additionally you could just as easily apply this "prophesy" to any currency system. You must have the correct mark (currency) to purchase anything within a given market. Finally, you are ignoring the part where the mark is supposed to be on someones hand or forehead, not in their wallet.

    March 12, 2013 at 11:11 am |
    • .

      If every UPC had a 6 in the beginning, middle, and end, I might say L4H had a point. But, no, this isn't true, so...???

      March 12, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Hubert : A six in three different positions is not the same as the number six hundred and sixty-six.

      You're clutching at straws with this rebuttal.

      @Hubert : Also a upc code is pretty much only used for low level consumer transactions.

      Which is also indicated by the "no person can buy or sell".

      @Hubert : Additionally you could just as easily apply this "prophesy" to any currency system.

      True – which would be necessary if we consider the one-world-government.

      @Hubert : You must have the correct mark (currency) to purchase anything within a given market.

      When was a VISA card restricted to American dollars?

      @Hubert : Finally, you are ignoring the part where the mark is supposed to be on someones hand or forehead, not in their wallet.

      I'm not ignoring it. The "mark" must be in place before it can be required to be put on people.

      -------–

      @. : If every UPC had a 6 in the beginning, middle, and end, I might say L4H had a point.

      Every UPC-12 has this 6 in the beginning, middle, and end.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • Peter

      Live4Him accusing someone else of grasping at straws is priceless.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • clarity

      Lol. I know, Paul. L4H is still trying to supply all of Solomon's stables with straw. (I think L4H needs to clarify how many stables it was supposed to have been.)

      March 12, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • .

      No, it doesn't.
      0 91945 93500 7
      I don't care what you spouted off about all the lines and such; there isn't a six in this bar code at all. If technology frightens you this badly, get off the Devil's Computer that you're using.

      Pete, right??

      March 12, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • Saraswati

      "Every UPC-12 has this 6 in the beginning, middle, and end."

      For those trying to decifer this bit of nonsense, what these guys mean is that the markers used to designate the bar code sections look like the markers used to designate the number 6. It's similar to saying everything with a nine in it contains a 6, because after all the nine is an upside down six...or whatever. Sorry, but absolute nutters.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @. : I don't care what you spouted off about all the lines and such; there isn't a six in this bar code at all.

      Open your eyes! 🙂 Keeping your eyes closed only hides the fact that there are three sets of two thin lines set close together that correspond to the right-hand number 6.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Saraswati : It's similar to saying everything with a nine in it contains a 6, because after all the nine is an upside down six...or whatever. Sorry, but absolute nutters.

      Only with our numbering system. Roman numerals six (i.e. VI) look different from a nine (i.e. IX). And, with a bar code, seen upside down or right side up, the markers look exactly the same – a set of thin lines set close together.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • clarity

      How does anything in the lines of a bar code make a V?

      March 12, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Peter

      If you squint your eyes and use your imagination then straight lines can look like a V

      March 12, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • .

      I've opened my eyes! 🙂
      And you are still wrong; what the bars correspond to is the item name and the cost of the product. Reaching for conspiracies to satisfy an explanation for a prophecy (ha!) Is this to the max.
      I've been TRYING to see what it is you are talking about, and there is absolutely nothing that I can see that is remotely true, and not I believe I've given enough time to this nonsense. It isn't there. And telling me to open my eyes, when I have been looking for SOME type of proof to the nonsense you've asserted is ridiculous, as this "prophecy fulfillment" is. I thought it was weak before, and now it's non-existent.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @L4H,

      "Only with our numbering system. Roman numerals six (i.e. VI) look different from a nine (i.e. IX). And, with a bar code, seen upside down or right side up, the markers look exactly the same – a set of thin lines set close together."

      But only with that numbering system...it's a numbering system like any other – and they aren't exactly the same – they differ in length, so you're picking and choosing what you consider same and different. This is no different than any other arbitrary set of symbols that look va guely similar. I see trousers with this double line pattern all the time. Are they all walking around with 6 6 6 6 around each pant leg?

      That was rhetorical. You really, really aren't going to convince anyone not either desperate or already inside your weird bubble that this is true and I know you can't see how insane this is. I'd ask you to take a week just to toy with the perspective you might be wrong and see what it looks like, but you probably would take that as a temptation of the devil. You are a scary person and I hope one day you'll have the clarity to see why.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
  17. Over 40,000 denominations of insanity

    Some believe that celibacy is appropriate for certain people, or for certain positions. It's ridiculous. Celibacy is unnatural and will continue to cause problems for the religious institutions that employ it.

    Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but don't understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease. Realistically, many abortions could be avoided if a morning-after pill were not viewed as such an evil option. Many of these same people bring children into the world at a high pace, and then would prefer that the rest of society take over and educate their children in their particular brand of religion when they don't plan well.

    In the U.S. recently we learned of the head of LCMS chastising a minister of that church for participating in a joint service for the victims of the Newtown school shooting.

    One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage.

    One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags".

    One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri.

    One sect believes women to be subservient, while another sect in the same denomination promotes equality between the sexes.

    Conflicted right from the very beginning, Christianity continues to splinter and create divisions and more extremism as it goes.

    =================================================
    Has anything improved with Christianity since 200+ years ago?

    Thomas Jefferson, POTUS #3 (from Notes on the State of Virginia):

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    James Madison, POTUS #4, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights (from A Memorial and Remonstrance delivered to the Virginia General Assembly in 1785):

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

    John Adams, POTUS #2 (in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 09/03/1816):

    I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.

    Ben Franklin (from a letter to The London Packet, 3 June 1772):

    If we look back into history for the character of present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practised it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England, blamed persecution in the Roman church, but practised it against the Puritans: these found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.

    Thomas Paine (from The Age of Reason):

    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
    ======

    March 12, 2013 at 11:02 am |

    • ..

      March 12, 2013 at 11:02 am |
  18. 89 Genesee

    What a load of horshit.

    March 12, 2013 at 10:57 am |
  19. Thoth

    "Some of the hundreds of protesters Sunday threw stones at police" – because that's the Christian way of solving things.....

    Most all religions are guilty of horrific acts past and present. The world would have one less tool of division if religions were viewed for the myths that they are.

    March 12, 2013 at 10:15 am |
  20. Live4Him

    @Doc Vestibule : Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith both have reams of docu/mented eye-witness testimony for their miracles, including testimony from skeptics and non-believers.

    Many people will watch the tricks of a magician and claim a miracle happened. But this doesn't make them a real miracle. On the other hand, the Bible foretold events that have happened in modern times.

    March 12, 2013 at 9:34 am |
    • meifumado

      Sure it has.

      March 12, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • Saraswati

      "On the other hand, the Bible foretold events that have happened in modern times."

      Could you provide some examples including the passage and what modern event it foretold? I've seen examples before and they usually had to do with multi-headed monsters representing the EU and other equally implausible stories, but I would be curious to see a good one sometime.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:05 am |
    • ME II

      "Many people will watch the tricks of a magician and claim a miracle happened. But this doesn't make them a real miracle."

      Thank you.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:09 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Jean Dixon used to predict the future, too. Lots of times, she was right and events happened just as she said they would.

      Lie4ever, why do get on here? Do you think you're convincing anyone?

      March 12, 2013 at 10:13 am |
    • Hubert

      The trouble with biblical prophecies is that they are so convoluted and va.gue you can apply them to pretty much any event.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:14 am |
    • .

      *crickets from L4H*

      March 12, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Saraswati : Could you provide some examples including the passage and what modern event it foretold?

      There are two that are distinct, along with others that tend to be indicative in nature. I'll start with some of the weaker points and progress to the stonger ones. I won't go into details in this first post, but we can take individual points and discuss at length in other posts.

      1) One world government / UN – indicated by Daniel 9, Revelation, etc.
      2) Increase of travel – I don't have the passage for this one
      3) Creation of atomic bomb – Revelation 9
      4) Rebirth of Israel in the Last Days – Ezekiel 37
      5) Use of computers in transactions – Revelation 13

      To keep the posts short and the discussion moving quickly, I'd like to reiterate that I'll only discuss one of these at a time.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:40 am |
    • midwest rail

      " 1) One world government / UN – indicated by Daniel 9, Revelation, etc.
      2) Increase of travel – I don't have the passage for this one
      3) Creation of atomic bomb – Revelation 9
      4) Rebirth of Israel in the Last Days – Ezekiel 37
      5) Use of computers in transactions – Revelation 13 "
      Good grief....

      March 12, 2013 at 10:44 am |
    • Hubert

      L4H

      Lets discuss number 5. Here is revelations 13.

      The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.
      The Revelation
      of St. John the Divine
      13

      The Two Beasts
      1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, Dan. 7.3 having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Rev. 17.3–0.-12
      2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: Dan. 7.4-6 and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
      3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
      4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
      5 ¶ And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
      6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, Dan. 7.8, 25 ; 11.36 to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
      7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: Dan. 7.21 and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
      8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life Ps. 69.28 of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
      9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
      10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: Jer. 15.2 he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
      11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
      12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
      13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
      14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
      15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
      16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
      17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
      18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

      where is the allusion to computer transactions?

      March 12, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • End Religion

      it seems obvious to me he'd say 17, buying and selling and having a number, means using a credit card online.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:50 am |
    • End Religion

      "1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea"

      PROPHECY FULFILLED: in the future people will go fishing.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Hubert : where is the allusion to computer transactions?

      Rev 13: 16-18
      And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

      Lets start with the basics out of this passage. We have a mark used for buying and selling which appears to have a six in three different positions: beginning, middle and last. We call it the UPC-12 code. The only way to process a large number of transactions with such a mark is computers.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • End Religion

      "3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

      PROPHECY FULFILLED: in the future, drummers will sometimes break the "heads" of their drums, replace them, and go on to play a show that night at which people have fun

      March 12, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • 89 Genesee

      Here is the UPC from a bag of chips:
      0 28400 09085 8

      Scan this and it will come up Lay's. What rot. Weak.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • 89 Genesee

      Here's the next item:
      0 76150 23207 3

      It's a bag of popcorn, which I am about to pop and settle down with to watch tis comedy unfold.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Hubert

      Hubert

      L4H

      A six in three different positions is not the same as the number six hundred and sixty-six. Also a upc code is pretty much only used for low level consumer transactions. Large transactions are usually completed with contracts. Additionally you could just as easily apply this "prophesy" to any currency system. You must have the correct mark (currency) to purchase anything within a given market. Finally, you are ignoring the part where the mark is supposed to be on someones hand or forehead, not in their wallet.

      d@mn reply button is sneaky.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • ME II

      @LIve4Him,
      Wow, really?

      " The only way to process a large number of transactions with such a mark is computers."

      Merchandise has been "marked" since literacy became common, it's called words. No computers required. What bunk.

      Atomic bomb? Rev 9 talks about opening the abyss and releasing smoke that turns into locusts/scorpions. How is that an atomic bomb?

      The "rebirth of Israel" is fairly obviously a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • clarity

      John of Patmos = clearly a substance abuser.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Lie4 him

      Unless the atomic bombs came along with plagues of locust and scorpions, you are simply lying again.

      Amazing what lengths you try to go to to fool yourself into thinking the bible has any bearing on reality.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • ME II

      "mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell"

      The UPC-12 you talk about is located on the product not the buyer.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • Nostradamus

      L4H
      Sea snakes are going to get you, stay out of the water, don't even go on the beach if you can avoid doing so Prophecy for free, see UPC code 0 99666 66699 8 for more at a small fee.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • In Santa we trust

      Lie4Him, Computers? because it says calculate the number of the beast? Atomic bombs? nothing close. Total bs like most of your attempts at conversion.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Live4Him
      Joseph Smith has had a lot of his prophecies come true.
      In late 1832, Smith received a very specific Divine Revelation about the American Civil War which came true.
      "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
      For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
      And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war."

      In 1831, Joseph prophesied that "Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains, and shall be assembled together unto the place which I have appointed".
      The Mormon Saints migrated to the Rocky Mountains in 1847, several years after Joseph was killed. There they built settlements and cities along stretches of many hundreds of miles in the West, from Canada to Mexico.

      The night before Joseph Smith was killed, as a captive in Carthage Jail, he prophesied that Dan Jones, whose life was clearly at risk, would survive to serve a mission in Wales. This came to pass.

      You'll note that these prophecies are very specific – not ambiguous like the 7 headed dragons, funky locusts, phials of sin water or whatnot from Revelation.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • Saraswati

      @L4H,

      "Lets start with the basics out of this passage. We have a mark used for buying and selling which appears to have a six in three different positions: beginning, middle and last. We call it the UPC-12 code. The only way to process a large number of transactions with such a mark is computers."

      Thank you. This is the same suff I've seen before. I actually had a flier on my windshield on this one once.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • Live4Him

      @89 Genesee : Here is the UPC from a bag of chips: 0 28400 09085 8 Scan this and it will come up Lay's. What rot. Weak.

      Yes, it will, but it also has more numbers than you can read. There are 12 sets of parallel lines. These are broken out in the following manner: 1) a set of parallel lines, 2) a set of parallel lines for the beginning (i.e. your 0), 3) a set of 5 parallell lines which represent numbers (i.e. your 28400), 4) a set of parallel lines, 5) a set of parallel lines for the ending (i.e. your 8), and 6) a set of parallel lines.

      Now, items 1, 4 and 6 are the same mark: two thin lines set close together. In the UPC system, each number can occur on both sides of the middle. when this occurs, the marks (i.e. a set of parallel lines) change to allow the computer to know which is the first set of numbers and which is the final set of numbers. In the right-hand numbers (i.e. trailing), the number six is represented by two thin lines set close together.

      For a visual image, this page would help. I haven't read this page entirely, but it does have a visual image that helps see this mark.

      http://rense.com/general20/666.htm

      March 12, 2013 at 11:39 am |
    • midwest rail

      The truly amazing thing is that anyone buys into this nonsense.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • Tommy

      Only a brain dead individually would think a UPC code fulfills a prophecy in the bible.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • 89 Genesse

      Saraswati, did you laugh at it like I just did when I saw this?

      March 12, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Tommy

      Make that a brain dead individual.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Nostradamus

      Screwed by the reply button....
      L4H, Topher, Chad, HeavenSent, fred, tbt, etc.......
      Here is another freebie made just for you....
      These will in the future by headless (mindless) idiots
      Be received as devine prayers.
      More available for a small fee, UPC code 0 99666 66699 8.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • In Santa we trust

      Lie4Him, In general when you're in a big hole it's better to stop digging.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

      First, this was most likely an educated guess – and thus fails the test for prophecy. Second, all the other nations were not involved in the conflict. So it fails the test for fulfillment.

      @Doc Vestibule : In 1831, Joseph prophesied that "Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains, and shall be assembled together unto the place which I have appointed".

      Again, this is very clearly a educated guess, rather than a prophecy. Second, while they were established for a while, many of their 'attributes' passed with the joining of the USA (i.e. pologamy for one).

      @Doc Vestibule : The night before Joseph Smith was killed, as a captive in Carthage Jail, he prophesied that Dan Jones, whose life was clearly at risk, would survive to serve a mission in Wales.

      Again, this appears to be an educated guess.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • Live4Him

      @ME II : The UPC-12 you talk about is located on the product not the buyer.

      True, but lets break this down some. Lets presume that there was a prophecy issued 500 years ago that foretold that a "Barak Obama would lead the nation of United States of America." This prophecy could be broken down into two parts: The formation of USA and Obama becoming its leader. The same is true with the UPC-12 – two parts: 1) usage to buy and sell and 2) forcing the mark on people.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Tommy

      unless the bible uses the phrase UPC code you got nothing.

      March 12, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      " 1) usage to buy and sell "
      Educated guess.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • Science

      Here is your education L#H according to you THE LIST

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/08/belief-blogs-morning-speed-read-for-friday-february-08-2013/#comments

      March 12, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @89 Genesse,

      I was expecting something a little better. I believe in starting with an assumption that people at least make sense within their own world views, but some of this stuff pushes my optimistic approach to its limits.

      I think in cases like this we’re looking at an exaggerated pattern finding instinct, an excess of something that in normal moderation has been good for us as humans. We have an instinct to find patterns and it has allowed us to achieve in science and technology.

      Unfortunately, much like an excessive grooming instinct may lead to something like trichotillomania or an exaggerated drive to eat to obesity, I think we’re seeing now where another instinct gone haywire (at least by today’s cultural needs and norms) can have some serious effects that, at least in this case, test our definitions of mental health. They really can’t see what’s wrong though, so it’s more of an egosyntonic disorder, like anorexia or some forms of addiction. And I think it’s only now emerging as a disorder, when faced with modern science and higher standards of docu mentation, in the same way that the instincts that lead to obesity were once not generally problematic when adequate food sources weren’t so abundant.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "First, this was most likely an educated guess – and thus fails the test for prophecy. Second, [the mark being forced on all people was not fulfilled]. So it fails the test for fulfillment."

      March 12, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • WASP

      @him: please show us where in the bible it said "BARACK OBAMA" exactly?

      i don't mean your flavor of "interrpting" what it said, i mean the name exactly how he spells it every day.

      please show where it said UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, exactly how it is taught to children in school.

      again no "interrpting".

      as said on that old detective show " just the facts mam."

      March 12, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • ME II

      @WASP,
      @Live4Him did say " Lets presume...". He wasn't claiming such a prophecy.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • lol??

      End Religion
      "3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

      Beasts are gubmints and the false prophets are religions, you moron. Drummers, ha. Only in yer hade.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      This is all pretty ridiculous.
      Just let me know when "The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." which was supposed to happen before your beastly UPC codes. That will be pretty convincing.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • End Religion

      There's your pretty basic delusion, which is anyone believing in god. Then there's your thumper that wants to tell waggle their finger and tell you you'll burn in hell if they dance or listen to rock music. Then there's your full on fanatic, who goes hook, line and sinker for the mark of the beast stuff, full on end times satanic hayride. Now combine that insanity with YEC insanity and out pops Lie4It.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • 89 Genesse

      Saraswati, I think that some people want something so badly that they will see, in every day ordinary things, validation for their most strongly-held beliefs.
      For those who are afraid that this world is getting too technological for them to understand, satan hides behind it all. Same as it ever was.
      In this case, I believe that some conspiracy theorists have gotten together and equated "the mark of the beast" for a UPC code...and thus, yet another conspiracy theory is born.
      I would suggest that people such as these stop visiting infowars and turn off Fox; this is doing nothing to calm the waters religions churn up.
      Lol. There isn't going to be a NWO, there isn't going to be one world-wide religion, and a UPC code is certainly not the "mark of the beast".

      March 12, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • lol??

      You children mock wayyy too much. God told you about animals just like in yer comic books.

      The lion:British Empire
      The bear:Who else??
      The leopard:Nazi Germany
      The diverse beast:HHHHmmmm who's always spoutin' and braggin' about unity with diversity??

      March 12, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • 0 65942 83987 4

      The whole bible is an uneducted guess as to what happened to an itinerant supposedly supernatural Jewish preaher/rabble rouser. The above code will get you a nice frock preferred by bishop's and cardinal's alike.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @89 Genesse,

      I agree it differs by person. Even though almost all humans engage in some level of self deception, this is pretty extreme and there's nothing you can do to point it out. The average person when actually faced with "Well, we can't actually all be better than average drivers..." gets it. You can point out 15 different ways to interpret this stuff and these folks still see theirs as special. It's certainly not unique to Christians, though, and by no means seen in all Christians. But it does seem to take some of the more freaky forms in that group.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • clarity

      Maybe the UPC codes for the things with trans fats have more sixes in them? I'm still trying to see the correlation.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Austin

      Interpretation of prophecy yields speculation. It takes someone with inspired insight like Daniel, or Joseph to get authoritative interpretation. We would like to think we know. This is human, but folly when we are simply guessing and wrong.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Peter

      There is no correlation, this person just wants the bible to be true so bad that they are willing to see fulfilled prophecies in UPC codes. It does not get much crazier than that.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • ME II

      "The leopard:Nazi Germany"
      I've seen this before but never understood it. The symbol for Germany was an iron eagle not a leopard. The only similarity seems to be their Panzer ("armor" in German) tanks, some of which were named "Panther" and "Tiger".

      Modern Germany has "Leopard" tanks, but not the Nazis.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Austin
      All religions are based on guessing and are wrong.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @ME II : First, this was most likely an educated guess – and thus fails the test for prophecy. Second, [the mark being forced on all people was not fulfilled]. So it fails the test for fulfillment."

      How could computers be an educated guess 1900 years ago? I think you're flailing about trying to come up with any rebuttal to my information.

      @ME II : Just let me know when "The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." which was supposed to happen before your beastly UPC codes. That will be pretty convincing.

      This is like trying to put on a seat belt as the car crash occurs. Once it happens, it will be too late to make a decision. If you only believe after He is revealed, then it is too late to change your mind.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • lol??

      Mark of the beast is where? In yer bwain, yer forehead, the way you think using the hegelian dielectic. Athena popped out of Zeus's forehead, remember? The commies got it from Genesis by studyin' Eve's little conversation.

      "Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,"

      "in his hand" could apply to those types who are always sayin', "My country, right or wrong!"

      March 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • clarity

      John of Patmos = substance abuser

      March 12, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • Austin

      ....Mystery Babylon is the name of the one world, false religion. People will worship this system. This evil corresponds with Daniels revived roman empire. Today, the the areas of the empire, that are not occupied by NATO or United states (yes I think they are involved in the one world takeover, or handing the power over to it as a sub) are Persia and Asia.

      The rest is already occupied by NATO.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "How could computers be an educated guess 1900 years ago? "

      Whoa, I said marks on products was an educated guess. You have in no way made the case for this text being about computers.

      "This is like trying to put on a seat belt as the car crash occurs. Once it happens, it will be too late to make a decision. If you only believe after He is revealed, then it is too late to change your mind."

      But, this happens with the sixth seal, in Rev 6. Isn't that supposed to occur before the trumpets and dragons and whatever before rev 13? Perhaps I misunderstood the order.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • Peter

      Yeah, John must have had some really good LSD or something.

      March 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Live4Him
      Here is an account of Mary Baker Eddy's miraculous healing of Irving C. Tomlinson.
      'About eighteen years ago, while living in Boston, I fell from the third story of a building on which I was working, to the pavement. My leg was broken in three places. I was taken to a hospital, where they tried to help me. They said that the leg was so bad that it would have to be amputated. I said, 'No, I would rather die.' They permitted it to heal as best it might, and as a result I had to wear an iron shoe eight or nine inches high. I was called to Mrs. Eddy's home on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston, to do some light work. Mrs. Eddy came into the room where I was busy, and observing my condition, kindly remarked, 'I suppose you expect to get out of this some time.' I answered 'No, all that can be done for me has been done, and I can now manage to get around with a cane.' Mrs. Eddy said, 'Sit down and I will treat you.' When she finished the treatment she said, 'You go home and take off that iron shoe, and give your leg a chance to straighten out.' I went home and did as I was told, and now I am so well that, so far as I know, one leg is as good as the other."

      For Joseph Smith:
      IN 1831, Mrs. John Johnson had a stiff arm that she wanted healed and made useful like the other, so she sought out Joseph Smith. The next day Joseph came to Bishop Newel K. Whitney's home where Mr. Johnson and his wife were staying. There were a Campbellite doctor and a Methodist preacher in the room. He took Mrs. Johnson by the hand and without sitting down or standing on ceremonies, and after a very short mental prayer, pronounced her arm whole in the name of Jesus Christ. He left the house immediately.
      When he was gone, the preacher asked if her arm was well. She immediately stretched out her arm straight, remarking at the same time, "It's as well as the other."

      March 12, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      I have a vital philospohical question.

      Do Christian bookstores sell bibles with UPC stickers on them?

      March 14, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.