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 The strongest support for a pathway to citizenship came from Hispanic Catholics, Hispanics Protestants and black Protestants.
March 21st, 2013
12:01 AM ET
Survey: Most religious Americans support a pathway to citizenshipBy Dan Merica, CNN Washington (CNN) – A majority of all major religious groups in the United States, according to a survey released Thursday, support a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants currently living in the country. From American Jews to Mormons, from Catholics to white evangelical Christians, Robert P. Jones, the CEO of Public Religion Research Institute, said the overwhelming support for a pathway to citizenship has been growing in the last few years and is a noticeable reason many in Congress are warming to the idea. The strongest support for a pathway to citizenship came from Hispanic Catholics, Hispanics Protestants and black Protestants, according to the poll. More than 70 percent of people who identified with those groups supported the immigration change. Additionally, more than half of all Jewish Americans (67%), Mormons (63%), white Catholics (62%), white mainline Protestants (61%) and white evangelical Protestants (56%) supported the inclusive immigration policy. “Having all of the groups on one side of this debate is pretty remarkable,” said Jones.
While Congress’ schedule has been jam packed in 2013, immigration reform has remained a top priority. A group of eight senators has attempted to forge a compromise on the contentious issue and a number of high-profile Republicans who once were tepid about a pathway to citizenship have announced their support. Just this week Republican Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky and Republican Rep. Raul Labrador of Idaho came out in support of the policy. “What I think should happen is anyone who is here illegally can come out of the shadows, become legalized in some way, have some legal status, and that status could lead to legal permanent residency and citizenship eventually, but just the same as anybody else who falls into that category,” Labrador told reporters on Wednesday. Many Republicans have pegged their support of a pathway to citizenship to first securing the nation’s borders. "I think the conversation needs to start by acknowledging that we aren't going to deport 12 million illegal immigrants," Paul said in an interview with CNN on Tuesday. Religious Americans, more than most groups, have been supportive of immigration reform in the past. Though some movement has been experienced in the last year, Jones said the support that is now being seen for immigration reform on Capitol Hill is primarily because lawmakers are beginning to realize most Americans support an immigration fix. “Members of Congress, who rely on elections, are paying more attention to the politics of this issue,” Jones said. “What we have here is political reality meeting public support.” Overall, the poll found that more than 6-in-10 (63%) of Americans said the immigration system should allow a conditional pathway to citizenship for immigrants who came hear illegally. Although more Democrats (71%) were more supportive, a majority of both Independents (64%) and Republicans (53%) favored Congress initiating a pathway to citizenship. According to Jones, morals and values are generally the reason that religious Americans were in favor of immigration reform before a great deal of the country. “We really see strong support for any plan that keeps families together,” Jones said. “Family values shows up very strong here. You have 84% of the country saying this is a very important value.” Five values in particular, according to the poll, were important among all religious groups when considering immigration reform: "promoting national security (84%), keeping families together (84%), protecting the dignity of every person (82%), ensuring fairness to taxpayers (77%) and enforcing the rule of law (77%).” Jones said in interviews for the poll the idea of the Golden Rule, of treating others how you would like to be treated, was an idea that was brought up regularly. “Most world religions have what we tend to call the Golden Rule,” Jones said. “Immigration policy that is fair, that provides reasonable opportunities, that resonates with religious values all the way across the religious spectrum.” Treating immigration as a moral issue, instead of solely a policy issue, is an argument that religious organizations have long used while lobbying congress for reform. In January, members of the Evangelical Immigration Table told CNN that a primary argument they are making to the White House and Congress is immigration form needs to be a priority because it is a moral imperative. In addition, religious leaders, particularly Christians, saw the 2012 election, where Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney struggled mightily among Hispanic voters, as the tipping point for reform. Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission who has long counseled Republican presidents on religious issues, told CNN in January that the 2012 election showed the Republican Party that without the Latino vote, the future was bleak. According to the poll, most Americans agree with Land. Forty-five percent of all respondents said the Republican Party’s stance on immigration hurt them in the 2012 election. The telephone poll of 4,500 adults was conducted from March 6, 2013 to March 10, 2013. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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No other country in the world support illegals from becoming citizens of their country.
If USA allows this, then those illegals should have a 25 year probationary period before they can vote in any elections.
With that in place, most of the politicians would say "no" , because they really don't care about those trying to go around our laws, they just want their votes.
AMERICA can't afford to accept any change of status for anyone who came here illegally.
it's simple math - if we didn't offer them jobs here, they wouldn't come.
the real problem isn't the immigrants - it's the people giving them jobs illegally. trying to stop immigrants is like putting a bandage on a wound. it would be better to stop whatever is doing the cutting.
these people are coming here to look for a better life for their family. put yourself in their shoes for a minute. can you really say you wouldn't do the same? still, if they came here and employers said, "sorry, we don't hire illegal workers", the problem would be solved. but americans like getting their fruits and vegetables picked by immigrants so the prices stay low. americans like paying less at restaurants because illegal immigrants are cooking their food and washing their dishes, keeping costs low which in turn keeps the customer prices low.
we INVITED illegal immigrants here. it's only fair the ones that are here should have a path to citizenship. until we stop inviting them to come through the offer of jobs, americans should get off their moral high-horse.
@Bootyfunk,
Isn't that kind of logic the same as someone camping out in your back yard saying, "well, you didn't have fence up"?
terrible analogy. in your analogy, i'm not offering anything, i just have land. americans are offering jobs AND we have land. see how you left out a part? gee, i wonder if that was on purpose..
a better analogy is saying, come over here illegally and we'll give you low paying jobs without any benefits or worker's rights so we can in turn pay less for our products and services - but then we'll persecute you for coming. sure, you'll be an economic slave and live in constant fear of deportation, but our inhumane treatment is better than no job at all. oh wait... that's not an analogy. that's what's actually happening.
ask yourself, why are illegal immigrants coming here? jobs. who is giving them jobs? americans.
@Bootyfunk,
I agree it's not the best analogy. I retract it.
My point was that Americans are not "inviting" people to enter the country illegally, unless they are actually placing Help Wanted ads in foreign newspapers.
Offering jobs to people currently in this country is not an unreasonable thing to do.
One way of looking at *a part* of this issue is not so much who is offering jobs to illegals, but who has contributed to making even those low paying jobs attractive to people who are trying to survive and have lost jobs and businesses in places like Mexico. The following article says that 1.5 million agricultural jobs have been lost in Mexico since NAFTA went into effect in 1994 (corn especially I think). So to survive, many who may have even owned their own farms have had to come across and go to work for various American businesses (including working migrant farming jobs in the U.S.).
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Mexico-s-corn-farmers-see-their-livelihoods-2515188.php
(I have heard about this issue for quite some time, so I'm sure you can easily find many other sources that say the same thing.)
White Christards are only changing their stance because they lost the election. They do not actually want any brown people in the US. That is why they are all obsessed with 1950's America.
well said. the ONLY real resistance to immigration is from christians. this article is a joke. he tipped toed around the subject in order to make the religious look positive on immigration - but the truth is it's the h.ardcore christians in the south that put up the most resistance.
Not, please don't speak for all followers of Jesus. The election had no bearing on what I believe should happen to the illegal immigrants, No amnesty, but work toward legal residency and if all their paperwork is in order they can apply for citizenship, just like all legal residents can after 3 years.
just read the actual survey.
"Religious Americans, more than most groups, have been supportive of immigration reform in the past."
the author of this article didn't read the survey very well. the survey doesn't even track what non-religious groups think. so how can the author say religious people "more than most groups" support immigration when the survey doesn't even attempt to show what non-religious groups thought?
http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-Immigration-Report-Layout-For-Web2.pdf
read it yourself. please point out where non-relibious/atheists/agnostics were even asked what they thought. the author is obviously religiously biased.
@Science,
"http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130321084221.htm"
Good article, thanks.
"The new estimate of dark matter content in the universe is 26.8 percent, up from 24 percent, while dark energy falls to 68.3 percent, down from 71.4 percent. Normal matter now is 4.9 percent, up from 4.6 percent."
Keep up the good work Jedi!!
Wow. The dude pictured really wanted that Kate Winslet role in Titanic I guess.
He just came in his pants...to the meeting of course. Who would go to Church without pants on other than maybe a priest...
or to the state capitol without tires . . .
Apparently if you are driving your truck to or through a church, having no clothes on at all is the proper protocol.
Funny people.
"And I know my heart will go on..."
Where's the baby?? For the love of humanity, WHERE'S THE BABY??
The best part of that movie was when Leonardo DiCaprio turned into a popsickle. He's done some good stuff since, but his cutesy years really sucked.
"Religious Americans, more than most groups, have been supportive of immigration reform in the past."
lol. more than most groups? that's hilarious, considering the south are republicans. the south are christians. the south are the ones that are vehemently against immigration. something here doesn't add up. the religious americans are the prejudiced americans.
"the religious americans are the prejudiced americans."
That should have read "the religious americans are often the prejudiced americans." but not always. Some are actually very nice people who don't try to force your face to the sky to honor their invisible fairy with a penis. (he is a He right?)
true, not always. but we can see which states needed the voting rights act. we can see which states national guards had to go into to instil civil rights. we can see which states have the most active KKK/hate groups.
that said, my ex-roommate was a white guy from savannah, georgia. he didn't have a prejudiced hair on his body and dated all races. however, he told me 99% of his family wouldn't. not everyone from the south is prejudiced, but it's definitely stronger there than most regions. their histories during the civil rights movement and since speaks for itself.
To those on the blog who are interested, watched a great movie on Netflix last night: "Doomsday Book
(In-lyoo-myeol-mang-bo-go-seo)"
The middle movie is about a robot in the near future that finds Nirvana and become the Budha while dwelling with monks.
Fits right into this conversation. Excellent movie too.
Saw the cover, but haven't watched yet. Foreign film right?
Sorry, "foreign" is relative.
Non-English language film, correct?
Yes, S. Korean.
The clever human brain has a few folks convinced there is a "self" the requires explanation. The question far more interesting to me is, what is the evolutionary advantage of self-delusion? It think that the chemical brain uses self-delusion to protect itself from boredom, unwelcome thoughts, depression, etc.
Sorry, to clarify I think that is one possiblility or one of the reasons.
I have a chemical reaction in my brain that causes me to care about you. We are robots. Don't believe in God.
@Father to his son
Why the sarcasm? Are you not able to have a civil discussion? Do you not think that there is an evotionary advantage to loving and nurturing your children? Survival for example? And got not that be the reason the "emotion" love might be critical for success as a species?
I don't see why it is necessary for a "God" to explain this.
so the brain fantasizes a "self" to protect itself from boredom? How does a state like "boredom" even take place where there is no self to be bored?
Sounds like something Skinner would have said. And meant.
Automation and robotics will soon eliminate human cheap labor in any form so why add to the unemployment burdens?
And in the future wars will be push button affairs with no need for soldiers (common belief in 1950).
Automation and robotics? Atheists are taking over?
... but the Carbon Tax on running them will effectively place them only in the hands of the rich, who don't really need them because of all the cheap manual labor available.... and other hypothetical speculations...
Yeah right, Drones take us a step closer.
@God Exists...,
"Automation and robotics? Atheists are taking over?"
pathetic
We are all brothers, sisters and cousins. What benefits one human ultimately benefits all humans. Open borders, get rid of the mental segregation and embrace your fellow human regardless of what nationality or gender. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is everywhere. The way to be happy is to make others so.
I'm not getting rid of my Irish pool boy for a pool bot. They tend not to do well working with water.
.
.
.
I don't have a pool boy.
Can you imagine God-boy being wheeled into with terrible injuries, yet screaming for them not to hook him up to the machine that would save him because it is atheist?
Bad automation. Bad.
CS
Funny you might say but on the topic of love this is my take:
I have been meditating on love for t6he past 11yrs.
6 of those were on the words
"I love myself"
This made me very happy, boisterous and funny. Girls loved it.
However it also made me unstable as those bouts of highs had bouts of lows with them.
I switched to
"I love my neighbor as myself" as my mantra
I improved academically. The women I loved began to return my affection instead of desiring one night stands. However I became more introverted.
Then I switched to
I love God with all my life.
I was brave, said what was on my mind and very religious. However moral standing plunged. i
This made me realise why the Bible makes loving God with all your life equivalent to loving your neighbor as yourself.
Currently I operate this mantra of
I love God with all my life and I love my neighbor as myself and my neighbor loves me as himself too.
This helps me to be religious, moral, emotionally stable and intellectually stimulating and loving.
Meditating on the two Greatest Commandments is helpful to me in ways I do not understand. However these are deliberate thoughts. The mind is not the brain, mind you, they somehow complement each other. Your mind can control your brain and vice versa.
CS
Funny you might say but on the topic of love this is my take:
I have been medi.tating on love for the past 11yrs.
6 of those were on the words
"I love myself"
This made me very happy, boisterous and funny. Girls loved it.
However it also made me unstable as those bouts of highs had bouts of lows with them.
I switched to
"I love my neighbor as myself" as my mantra
I improved academically. The women I loved began to return my affection instead of desiring one night stands. However I became more introverted.
Then I swi tched to
I love God with all my life.
I was brave, said what was on my mind and very religious. However mo.ral stan.ding plu.nged. i
This made me realise why the Bible makes loving God with all your life equ.iva.lent to loving your neighbor as yourself.
Currently I operate this mantra of
I love God with all my life and I love my neighbor as myself and my neighbor loves me as himself too.
This helps me to be religious, moral, emotionally stable and inte.llectu.ally stimulating and loving.
Meditating on the two Greatest Com.m.andm.ents is helpful to me in ways I do not understand. However these are deliberate thoughts. The mind is not the brain, mind you, they somehow complement each other. Your mind can c.ont.rol your brain and vice versa.
HB,
"Except what Honey Badger can imagine and learn (faith)."
I understand what you're saying but I dont have faith in ANYTHING. I have reasonable expectations based on past experience. But I dont have faith in anything. Faith is belief without evidence.
Faith in God is not faith without evidence.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
We have more than one definition for that word.
I do have evidence for God's existence.
GOD EXISTS! Hallelujah!
GE, you have faith. That's it. ZERO evidence for any god. Your god doesn't exist until you prove it. Get cracking!
The rubes are dazzled by sophistry every time. Looks like proof if you have no clue what proof and evidence are.
I'm not here to prove God to you...
'MEII: First, science doesn't deal in "proof".'
I can't prove it to you. But I do have evidence, or else I wouldn't say: God exists!
Does that evidence include dead cats?
OK, lets see this "evidience" that you have.
I have evidence that Unicorns are real. Unicorns are the only source of Keratin in the universe so it's obvious to anyone who knows anything that Unicorns are real. Are you bald? No, so unicorns exist. It's as obvious as the nose and glasses on your face.
According to 1 Peter 3:15 you must always stand ready to give your reasons for believing in your god. So let’s hear it. Or do you not believe your precepts from the bible?
@ Honey Badger Dont Care
Do you really want evidence for God? Why? Is there something missing in your life? What kind of evidence are you looking for?
@God Exists
My question is, if God exists so what? Why "hallelujah" and all that? If that is what it is, then great, but why the worship? The God needs worship from you?
Knock off the stalling. You're the one who claims God exists. If you want anyone else to believe you when you say you have evidence, then you'll stop posting drivel and start posting facts.
You can either do that, or admit that you have faith and belief without facts.
Did you really want a free room? Why? Did you think just because the add said free that it would be? What kind of free room are you looking for?
Yes, I really do want evidence from you. Unlike you I actually care about whether or not what I belive is true or not. I require evidence for my beliefs.
Also unlike you, I would actually convert if there were real evidience to support the claim for a god that was worth worthiping. Unlike you that is that would not change your mind no matter what evidence you were presented with.
*Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.*
It doesn't say to provide evidence... is says give the reason for the hope that you have.
"But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. "
1 Peter 3
My reason for believing in God – the look in other believer's eyes. I can see they've got something. They tell me to keep it simple, to pray for his direction and guidance. And it works.
I am better human being when I believe in God, then when I don't. (I am just speaking for me here, I know others believe differently)
Then don't claim you have evidence. Stop lying about it. You believe. You have faith.
For evidence – try praying. Pray to that power that the universe is dependent on. Let your religious hurts and hang ups go. And ask for help today.
@ The real Tom
You don't get to decide that for me. You don't have that power. All you can control is what you type into your little box before you press "post".
Christian evidence always devolves down to "use your imagination."
In other words, you have no evidence. WHAT A LOSER!
"For evidence – try praying."
You may pray for evidence, but none has been given you. At best praying can give you faith, not evidence. If you fail to understand the difference between the two it's no wonder you are here arguing about it. Only a true simpleton would mistake his faith for evidence.
I am such a loser. I am pathetic.
I can pray for the knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out.
It works.
@god exists. "I can't prove it to you. But I do have evidence"
If you can't prove it, you don't have evidence.
@ Simple Ton of Logic
We don't pray for our selfish wants... that doesn't work.
I am a sheep and I don't need knowledge.
@In Santa we trust
I really don't think you want proof. You just want to prove your righteousness.
Humility is the key.
Why are you here?
Seeking God?
Or seeking to prove yourself?
This would be a pretty easy venue to prove yourself – you know – arguing against people who have no evidence for their beliefs. Sounds like a walk in the park. Easy street.
"To seek God, and His truths, we must become humble. Without humility God will not open the door, and our seeking will be in vain."
God Exists
Is praying a means of finding evidence that exists independently, or a means of creating your own, personal "evidence"? You can convince yourself that just about anything simply "must" work because you so desperately want it to, but that's how delusion works, isn't it? Think of all the failed inventions and money-making investment schemes that there have been. Each and every one had people who had complete faith in them, right? Complete faith, and a lack of evidence once you got past all the claims that were made about them. Just like religion.
@The Central Scrutinizer
My question is, if God exists so what? Why "hallelujah" and all that? If that is what it is, then great, but why the worship? The God needs worship from you?
I was testing the belief that evil hates the sound of praises to God.
@ Ken
You might be right. Or you might be delusional. I really don't know.
I trust in God. It works for me. I'm better now. I'm happy. Praise God.
God Exists
"Humility is the key."
To me, insisting that you are right despite having a total lack of supporting evidence suggests a considerable lack of humility. It places your perception, intuition, or whatever part of yourself that you think understands that God is real over the combined intelligence, logic and reasoning ability of those who don't accept your claim, many of whom are professional scientists. Anyone who can stand up to the professional experts in a field and insists that he simply "knows" that they're all wrong even though he can't prove it to them is anything, but "humble".
@ Ken
Humble:
not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive
reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission
ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious
--
I believe in God. And, yea, I am not very humble. I'm working on it every day. I do have more humility in my life than I used to. And I believe that helps me with my relationship with God.
Believing that "The Creator" is both anthropomorphic and anthropocentric is the height of arrogance.
God Exists
Wouldn't delusional people see the rest of the world, the sane world, as the ones who are delusional?
The difference between not having evidence and having evidence is the same difference between dreaming about having a girlfriend and waking up next to her.
Reality is much, much, much more satisfying than fantasy.
@god exists
"I really don't think you want proof. You just want to prove your righteousness. Humility is the key."
You claim there is a god but have no evidence. You're the one posting that; I'd say you're the one that needs to examine your righteousness and humility.
"Believing that "The Creator" is both anthropomorphic and anthropocentric is the height of arrogance."
You are going to have to use smaller words if you expect "God Exists" to understand you and reply.
God Exists
"It works for me. I'm better now. I'm happy."
Lots of drug addicts say the same thing about what makes them happy too.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
Most addicts, when being devoured by their addictions, don't look very happy.
And some confess that happiness they were seeking (but not getting) they now get from God.
@ In Santa we trust
I post this on a blog that deals with faith, belief and religion.
Most of the articles on here discuss God. They don't have to prove of disprove the real existence of God.
Enough sound minded people believe in God that a blog like this can exist. They have their evidence.
What evidence do you need to believe in God?
I am an evolved human. I no longer have a need for superstltions. I no longer knock on wood. I no longer expect bad things to happen if I walk under a ladder or don't pray to an invisible deity. I see no evidence for an invisible deity. I save my salt for my food instead of throwing it over my shoulder. I am an evolved human and I am passing these evolved traits on to my children.
"You don't get to decide that for me. You don't have that power. All you can control is what you type into your little box before you press "post"."
No, I can't stop you from lying. But I can avoid Christians like you who do so and discount their words about a god.
Good job, there!
@godexists
"What evidence do you need to believe in God?"
Any evidence would do. Anything that shows the need for a supernatural cause and then evidence that it actually happened.
Per my previous post(s) ancient peoples had no explanation for events such as eclipses, floods, storms, thunder, lightning, etc. They satisfied themselves with an supernatural explanation for each which we don't need; we know how those events happen.
Each of the ancient peoples had their own creation myth and christianity is only the dominant religion in the USA because the Romans took it to Europe and the Europeans brought it to the New World. Else you'd believe in a different god and religion. Even if there were a god, there's no way to know it is your god.
Science explains much of what the ancients didn't and gaps in our knowledge doesn't mean a god did it.
@ Tom
Yet, you keep coming back. And reading and responding to Christians. Despite having the power to avoid it.
What are you looking for?
Oh joy, there's another religious zealot that can't actually engage in anything resembling discussion. Another moron who only wants to do self-righteous preaching to reinforce his own belief. Pathetic.
@ Santa
Good luck in your search for God. You ask tough questions, that is a good start.
@ hawaiiguest
So... you're idea of a discussion is to hurl slurs at another person?
What are you looking for here?
Did you guys get kicked out of the reason, logic and science blogs?
Why come to the faith, belief and religion blog?
It is has been nice talking to the few who didn't resort to name calling. Thanks.
Proof that God is working on you.... you are here thinking about God.
Beautiful.
bye!
Considering that you started by claiming evidence and in post after post after post after post weaselled and spun and twisted your way around not providing anything, it is only reasonable to expect the people you are debating with to dismissed you and become contemptuous of your behavior.
"What are you looking for?"
Truth. Honesty. Apparently, I shouldn't have bothered with your posts.
@godexists
"Good luck in your search for God. You ask tough questions, that is a good start."
I'm not searching for god, I'm searching for answers based on reason and evidence. Yes, they are tough questions when the basis for your whole belief system is so fragile.
@god exists
How about a religious person that actually has some evidence instead of constant fallacies interspersed with assertions and of existence and preachy bullshit? I'd like one of those, and have yet to actually see one. I've had decent discussions on here when the religious person realizes that constant preaching of what they believed instead of actually presenting evidence doesn't get anyone anywhere.
You, for example, are an example of a preachy little tool with no point. Your "evidence" is "pray to god". You're telling non-believers to believe first, then pray to your god because you can't actually try to pray to something you don't believe exists. Things don't work that way. You're promoting confirmation bias, and I saw earlier you engaged in the age old special pleading fallacy. Now, are you willing to actually engage in discussion or will you continue your self-righteous irrelevancy?
God Exists
The reason we believe is because the real presence of God in our lives through the Holy Spirit that reveals all truth.
I say thank you Jesus for this gift!
@fred
Yes we all already know you're arrogant enough to think god is playing favorites with you. Now can you present any evidence like you constantly say you're going to?
Why can't atheists simply be happy that Christians look forward towards an eternity with God? If God does not exist we end up in the same pile of bones.
We are driven by our beliefs just as you are and see reality through that lens not a science book
@fred – "The reason we believe is because the real presence of God in our lives through the Holy Spirit that reveals all truth."
Why don't you try to be present yourself instead of relying on some invisible creature to do it for you? Why not take credit where credit is due. If you accomplish something it was you who achieved it. Did you have help on your journey to that accomplishment? Of course you did. You had parents who fed you and got you to school, you had people all around you working to better our understanding of the universe which enabled you to even have the opportunity to achieve greatness. You had thousand and thousdands of other people fixing roads and bridges, building power grids and bringing technology and information right into your home with science that many just a few years ago might have called "magic". There were tens of thousands of people in the service industry who fed you and dry cleaned your clothes, waited on you at the bank and managed the infrastructure around you that enabled you to succeed, and all you can manage is basically a "Thank God"? Sad, just very very sad.
@fred
Why do you constantly say you have evidence and completely fail to present any? Why do you follow a book that is more divisive than any other book in history. Why do you constantly use fallacies and run away when they don't work?
hawaiiguest
Evidence for God is overwhelming for believers. This reason we understand is because we believe not in order to believe.
The problem with evidence is that you demand evidence that fits the scientific method which is designed and limited to evaluation and understanding of all matter and energy that was created for Gods purpose. Science has done a bang up job in this endeavor and intellectually honest scientists understand these limitations.
The limitations of science begin with the first words of the Bible “In the beginning God”. At that point the truth about purpose of life and origin of life begin to unfold in the journey of redemption. The extrapolation of biological evolution into the meaning and origin of life is nonsense at worst and poor science at best which does not follow proper scientific method to reach such conclusion. Science cannot and does not address purpose or origin of life relative to the journey of redemption.
The evidence for God is self evident to anyone that does not have preconceived alternate bias or belief that is contrary to God (assuming normal neurological and cognitive functionality). Self evident awareness is grounded in the sense that there is something more to existence than organic matter responding to chemical and electrical stimuli. 98% of the world presents this common awareness. There is no evidence that supports this dominate feature in awareness from any other animal. Only man is known to be inclined towards worship of that which cannot be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted. Now, 2% of the worlds population is blind or deaf so it is conceivable that those who cannot sense a greater purpose for existence may lack a particular sense or instinct that remains with general population.
Jesus said let those with ears hear and those with eyes see when expressing main points of truth. Relax, if you cannot sense greater purpose as a result of evolution God will not hold it against you.
Ancient prophets, when examining planet alignment, discovered Jesus dis not exist. Their work was nearly lost in the great turmoil of history but is yet known by a few. The New World Order and Democrats have been trying to hide the knowledge of Jesus' non-existence. Christians, don't let those Libs succeed! They cannot suppress the fact Jesus didn't exist.
Rube Dazzler
Step it up a knotch and acknowledge that there is evidence a man named Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by Pilate as a rabble rousing preacher. We have those facts which no one (except you) doubts.
The rest of it takes faith anyway so evidence would simply cloud the issue.
What we do know is that democrats were not around a few hundred years ago.
God Exists
"Humble:
not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive"
To add what Doc said, it's also the hight of arrogance to assume to know what the most incredible intelligence imaginable would be thinking.
Christians will go on and on about how we humans are simply incapable of understanding God's motivations for ordering something like the genocides against the Canaanites and, in the next breath, they will describe how they absolutely know that God "loves" them exactly how they imagine he does. Mystery, or open book, which is he?
God Exists
"Most addicts, when being devoured by their addictions, don't look very happy."
They're not very happy only when they aren't high, something I notice about Christians when they find something troubling about their faith. Addicts get happy once again after they've had enough and quit, and the same goes for Christians. After they've had enough with trying to make sense out of all their beliefs and quit trying to make square pegs fit into round holes, they become atheists and become happy once again.
The evidence of circular logic: the Bible is true because the bible says so. No other evidence exists.
Dagnabbit, fred, you know Democrats have existed since the beginning of time. They are mentioned in the Bible. The fact that it *appears* to you they did not exist is simply a ruse of the devil. Don't let those sinners stop you from knowing the Truth about Jesus' non-existence!
fred
"Evidence for God is overwhelming for believers."
That, of course, is true for all "believers", including the people who believe in things like astrology, leprechauns, and Communism. No amount of evidence to the contrary will ever convince them that what they believe in isn't real, or doesn't work.
Circles are fred's friends
"The evidence of circular logic: the Bible is true because the bible says so. No other evidence exists"
=>as ye sow so shal ye reap.............that is circular logic. Then there was Simba by Disney that revealed the circle of life.
The evidence I presented included present day personal encounters with God. The Bible says this is how it would happend and it happens in real time all day long. This is not circular logic but current evidence that supports the Bibles position on the power of indeweling of the Holy Spirit.
fred
"Why can't atheists simply be happy that Christians look forward towards an eternity with God?"
I might ask why Christians can't be happy that people of other religions, or no religion at all in the case of atheists, are happy without their God?
fred
One person's "personal encounter with God" might be another person's personal encounter with another god, or experience with alien abduction, contact with a ghost, or remembrance of a past life. The evidence suggests that you are all experiencing similar things, but just assigning different old cultural "meanings" to them.
Ken
As Christians we are to be loving servants to those around us, encouraging examples of the light of Christ. At the same time we are to be in the world but not of the world while spreading the Gospel. As light and salt of the earth we are to lift others out of the bondage of sin. People like their sin and become defensive or hostile should anyone fail to leave them alone in their sin. Some churches think it is ok to wink at sin yet the Bible clearly states that is a non starter.
Certainly culture and other socioeconomic forces effect what a person assigns to a unique spiritual experience. I believe if there is a God then God orchestrates events to bring about the best possible good for the greatest possible number of people. The way of God was revealed to me and so that was my gift to do with as I choose. I accepted that gift and try to help others accept what they were given.
The interesting thing about God is that perfect goodness and perfect justice are one in God thus only the best possible result is in store for those of other faiths. I don’t know what that result will be because my ideal of good and just are compartmentalized and imperfect.
@fred
That was a long post to say "the bible is right because I say so". You have presented nothing, not even a philosophical argument. You have done what you always have done. Made assertions with only the backing of "I'm a believer so I know" and "The bible says something". Pathetic.
@fred
if the only "evidence" you have is the same ad populum fallacy, then there's nothing more to say. You're a moron, that's it.
hawaiiguest
Look at it again, it is not ad populum and you know it. If you do not then put down the Bible and pick up a logic rules guide.
@fred
"Self evident awareness is grounded in the sense that there is something more to existence than organic matter responding to chemical and electrical stimuli. 98% of the world presents this common awareness."
That is the very definition of ad populum you stupid, dishonest little shit! The % of people that think something is completely irrelevant to whether what they think is actually true. Not to mention that all those 98% does not subscribe to the same god you do, so even if it was valid, it doesn't provide evidence for your god you fucking idiot.
hawaiiguest
98% of the world population has the ability to see and hear.
98% of the world population has the ability to sense something atheists cannot sense.
Are they both an ad populum or just the one that offends your senses?
@fred
You really are just fucking stupid aren't you? You are asserting that there is something to actually see and hear without demonstration. You are using the number of people that accept something supernatural to support that there is something to see and hear. This is an ad populum you stupid fuck. I ask for evidence of your god, and you come with "durr well 98% of people believe in "something" supernatural, so you're wrong". THAT'S A FUCKING AD POPULUM YOU MORONIC, DISHONEST LITTLE SHIT.
hawaiiguest
So your answer is you assert ad populum when it suits your belief rather than properly apply it.
Understand that both statements are statements of fact and are self contained. Neither are ad populum.
The pattern you have demonstrated is that have a negative emotional response to God which clouds your reason and logic. This is why you cling to atheism. It comforts your fear of rejecting God.
fred, You have yet to produce any evidence of a god. Even if 98% of the world believe in a god (I doubt that it is that high), the majority do not believe in your god. So by your majority rules statement you should convert to the most populous religion. When do you plan to do that?
fred
"... have a negative emotional response to God which clouds your reason and logic. This is why you cling to atheism. It comforts your fear of rejecting God."
Speaking for myself here. I have a response to people telling me that I should live the way they think for reasons they cannot explain. Christians in the USA want to have their god on our money, displayed on public buildings, and to have their beliefs taught as science.
There is no evidence of a god – not Odin, not Zeus, not Kokopelli, and not yours.
I refer to my mechanic question yesterday – you know my example was nonsense because of your knowledge and reasoning powers yet you suspend them where religion is concerned. It makes no sense when looked at logically and there is no evidence of a god.
@fred
No they are not statements of fact you stupid dishonest little tool! Asserting that there is something to actually see or hear IS NOT PROVEN!
A more accurate statement is that 98% of the population believe in something or other that would be considered supernatural, AND THAT STILL ISN'T EVIDENCE OF THE SUPERNATURAL!
And how fucking dare you think you can tell me what I think you fucking ass. You are a coward. You are dishonest. you lie for your god.
Luther would be incredibly proud of you right now for your dishonesty.
How can you really be this fucking stupid?
"It comforts your fear of rejecting God."
This was good for a laugh. This is how we know it gets under your skin to say you cling to god out of fear, because nutters take the argument and incorporate it into an attack even though it makes ZERO possible sense in that context. You're simply aping words that have bothered you, thinking they will bother us. Too funny!
In Santa we Trust
The 98% do not necessarily believe in God or gods specifically they simply believe that there is something more rather than the “no God” atheists claim. The main issue is life after death or reason for existence. The idea that we die and cease existence exactly the same as ants, rats, apes or men without any greater or other possible purpose does not compute.
If there is a God what purpose is there for man? When the earth was flat we needed God and when the earth was round we needed God. The more we learn about our impossible existence and the scope/power of the unknown that began our universe and holds it together the more we become aware that an accidental human could not have happened.
If there is no God why would anything matter because accidents large or small are simply the random chaotic result of other forces? This is why atheists actually believe there is no difference between Santa and God regardless if they are real or illusion. This is why the death of a puppy and the death of a child are the same. It is all an impersonal accident of nature. You may have emotional ties to the child but when you and the child die there is only dust over time as with a dead puppy.
hawaiiguest
You are aware that you must have some issue when you cannot admit you were wrong. The statement is not ad populum unless you add your personal thoughts to it. Even if I add you tid bit it still is not ad populum.
98% of the population can sense something regarding mans existence while 2% lack that sense.
Does someone need to slap some sense into you and make you slap happy?
@fred
You're pathetic. You continue to make the same fallacious argument over and over. Just because 98% of the population believe the sense something, and in many cases conflicting things, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING TO FUCKING SENSE!
Now, address the actual point or continue to show your complete lack of honesty. Your fucking choice coward.
Caffeine must be hawaii's friend; I would have been asleep long ago.
hawaiiguest
Until such a time as I attempt to tie the fact (98% ydda yadda) to a conclusion (thus God exists) it is not ad populum.
Ok, now I have forgotten the question so let me scan the thread
@fred
Then why the fuck are you even bringing it up? I asked you to provide evidence of your god, and the VERY FIRST THING you come with is "oh 98% blah blah blah".
fred
The purpose for all living creatures is to reproduce (why do you think religions are generally against contraception?). Why does the idea that we die and cease existence exactly the same as ants, rats, apes or men not compute?
I thought point about 98% was that that made it more likely that they were correct, so by that logic wouldn't the religion with the largest number of believers be the correct one?
Did you forget the mechanic reason and knowledge thing?
In Santa we Trust
No, hawaiiguest said I was fucking stupid so I went to make sure all the shades were drawn
In santa we trust
“Why does the idea that we die and cease existence exactly the same as ants, rats, apes or men not compute?”
=>The probability of our complicated life form existing is impossible without supernatural explanation or an infinite number of universes based upon multiverse theory that is unsupported to date.
=>a gut feeling based on lack of boundaries or point of reference during cognitive thought.
“I thought point about 98% was that that made it more likely that they were correct, so by that logic wouldn't the religion with the largest number of believers be the correct one?”
=>no, point is that humans have a sense beyond the common 5 senses.
Every dependent thing needs something to depend upon.
The universe (the sum total of material reality) is a dependent thing.
Therefore the universe needs something to depend upon (God).
QUESTION: Who made God?
ANSWER: God simply exists without having a cause, because God is not a dependent thing. God is an independent thing.
QUESTION: Who made God?
ANSWER: No one made God, because God isn’t the sort of being that needs to be made.
@God Exists...,
If you can claim God 'just exists', then why can't I claim that the universe 'just exists'?
Q: then why can't I claim that the universe 'just exists'?
A: Science proves that the universe has a beginning. It was dependent on something to start it.
My universe has a beginning (my birth) and end (my death). Nothing exists beyond that.
Except what I can imagine and learn (faith).
“Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much.”
@God Exists...,
"Science proves that the universe has a beginning. It was dependent on something to start it."
First, science doesn't deal in "proof".
Second, Current science shows that known space-time likely started from a singularity, but there is no information on that singularity. Why can't it "simply exist" and therefore known space-time "simply exist"?
Your two original assertions are unproven:
Every dependent thing needs something to depend upon.
The universe (the sum total of material reality) is a dependent thing.
If these are false then your whole argument is broken.
FAIL!
Ok, we can't use science to prove of disprove God. At all.
But it does appear that the universe is and was dependent on something. A power that the universe doesn't create itself.
the unmade maker = God
@Eckhart Tolle Eckhart's Fans (666) لطيفة Marine ... Paul Ana Deanna ... Denise ... Coralia... Jo-anne Kim Andrea Barbara... Eux Atique Hala Dan Kämpe Elizabeth Ashley Marina Samantha Dane Ivo Sto... Ali Daniel Anaele Irina Ashley ... Kim Pamela ... : OK, I hear ya.
You don't know that a god initiated anything. You're presuming that.
Honey Badger's universe has a beginning (Honey Badger's birth) and end (Honey Badger's death). Nothing exists beyond that.
Except what Honey Badger can imagine and learn (faith).
The real Tom's universe has a beginning (The real Tom's birth) and end (The real Tom's death). Nothing exists beyond that.
Except what The real Tom's can imagine and learn (faith).
It is more likely there is a God than not. Just trying to be reasonable.
"But it does appear that the universe is and was dependent on something. A power that the universe doesn't create itself."
It does not appear that way at all: Energy + Negative energy = 0 which is where the universe started from.
Mary Cherry troll, u mad bro?
It is no more likely there is a god than that there isn't one.
And to whoever is posting using my screen name, thanks, but use your own.
God Exists
God is a dependent thing because he needs human beings to worship him. That's why he made us, to worship him as a god. He would have been incomplete before creating the universe and us because his existence would have been meaningless without having a purpose. Without something to worship him, he would just be a powerful being and he wouldn't be a god. If everyone stopped worshiping him right now he would stop being a god again. That's why he's completely dependent upon something worshipping him.
What is powerful enough to create this universe? – and you? – powerful enough to be aware of the universe? The sun is very powerful, but it doesn't know you exist. It wasn't created in the Creator's image... you were. And that is an awesome gift, don't waste it.
"It is more likely there is a God than not. Just trying to be reasonable."
No it is not more likely. No creation myths from any religion stand up to our current scientific knowledge. We understand how things happen – thing that would have troubled people in the stone age: thunder, lightning, eclipses, storms, drought, etc. Gods and religion came from trying to explain those phenomenae; we understand how they happen. We have a plausible explanation for the universe that does not require a god.
@God Exists...,
"But it does appear that the universe is and was dependent on something."
If you define the universe as the current visible space-time, then yes, and a singularity is the likely suspect. But if you include all matter and energy states describable by "laws of nature" then what you claim is not apparent.
There's no evidence it was created at all.
Are you just trolling or do you actually have something worthwhile to say?
There never was a miracle jesus and certainly no tribal god of israel. Sorry... time to grow up.
creation myths = not science
And science can't prove anything, anyway.: "First, science doesn't deal in "proof"."
And how do you prove a literary story that deals with the relationship between a Creator and the creatures? With your brain or heart? Human being are not robots – we don't deal 100% in logic. We can't. We wouldn't be human if we did.
The creation myth is a story of God's love... that is real. That can't be explained in a science text book.
Why do you engage in this nonsense? I am thrilled that you believe in god and that your beliefs comfort and sustain you. They are not based on facts, however. Stop trying to insist that you know something that you simply believe.
The burdon of proof is on the person making the claim. ie. YOU making the claim that a god exists. It is not on the person refuting the claim to proof a negative.
You fail at logic over and over again.
"The creation myth is a story of God's love... that is real. "
It's also a story about God's hate. No amount of books can hold the depth of God's hate toward man.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-11/humans-cant-be-empathetic-and-logical-same-time
God Exists
"No one made God, because God isn’t the sort of being that needs to be made."
Just because you can string words into an English sentence that follows the rules of grammar doesn't mean that it actually makes sense. You could just as easily have said "The four-sided triangle was inside itself and north of the North Pole."
Similarly, people like to claim that God is all-knowing, and some being way back when may have told that to a Bible author, maybe even honestly believing it, but how could any being actually be sure that it did know everything? Some being that calls itself God may have really good senses, and created everything that he knows about, but it would only be arrogance for him to assume that he knows absolutely everything. He may not even know who his parents are.
Is it logical to spend all day on a belief/religion/faith blog – if you don't have belief/religion/faith?
@Ken: Just because you can string words into an English sentence that follows the rules of grammar doesn't mean that it actually makes sense
Right back at you... so why should I read what you say? What is the difference between the string of words you are using?
Honest Question
Would it be logical to spend all day discussing cures to terminal diseases if you don't have one?
"Is it logical to spend all day on a belief/religion/faith blog – if you don't have belief/religion/faith?"
Of course it is. If you close your eyes to the crazies don't be surprized when one hits you in the face. Everyone should keep an eye on those who would listen to an alien being if it told them it was God, performed some parlor trick and then sent them off to kill off those they dislike. Why do you think so many conservative republicans are chafing at the idea of giving up their AR-15's? Because they are just waiting and biding their time for what they think will be "the big show" where they get to wipe out people they disagree with and then get raptured up to their exclusive country club cloud base.
God Exists
Which "string" would that be? "The four-sided triangle was inside itself and north of the North Pole.", or something else? Be specific.
Logic and emotion tend to be considered as polar opposites.
Think about the analytic CEO—his actions make sense in the science of profit, but when it means using cheap human labor or firing a couple hundred employees, there’s an apparent lack of concern for the human consequences of his actions.
Many choices are a struggle to compromise the two systems–and that may have to do with how our brains are wired.
We are human, not logical, beings.
THANK GOD!
Off-topic, but I keep reading Honey Badger's post as the "bunion of proof".
wow, this is easier than I thought...
...
The real Tom
"... I keep reading Honey Badger's post as the "bunion of proof"."
hahaha, I keep thinking of Eric Burdon - ah, "The House of the Rising Sun" and "Sky Pilot"!
The "bourbon" of proof would also be good. Of course then it would have to the proof of the bourbon, wouldn't it?
That's religious revelation, Tom, you have been chosen to be the prophet of The Great And Really Hidden One True God, The Great And Powerful BUNION!!!
Only you have been so chosen, as the messenger of the thruthy truth to enlighten this benighted world. The mockers will mock you, but as Bunion tells us verily, "mockers mean you are right and they are wrong and nya nya nya!" And verily you verily know that unbelievers will perish in the misery of eternal ethletes foot and ringworm! Obey or suffer!
And verily forget not that Bunion is short on cash, and verily operators are standing verily by.
Hahaha. I think I will have to go find a truck I can drive through a church or something.
@God Exists...,
"Human being are not robots – we don't deal 100% in logic."
Agreed, however if you want to convince other people that what you feel is true actually is true, then it's best to provide some objective evidence.
Otherwise a simple, "I disagree" or "I don't think so" is sufficient refutation.
Why is your heart any more valid than someone else's who disagrees with you?
Not sure about the proof one but the Bunion of Truth is revered by Podiatrists everywhere.
The real Tom
Why bother? The way churches are being abandoned the days all you have to do is watch them decay, or be converted into condos.
Science
Logic and emotion tend to be considered as polar opposites.
Think about the analytic CEO—his actions make sense in the science of profit, but when it means using cheap human labor or firing a couple hundred employees, there’s an apparent lack of concern for the human consequences of his actions.
Many choices are a struggle to compromise the two systems–and that may have to do with how our brains are wired.
We are human, not logical, beings.
THANK GOD!
Copy cat in logic OVERLOAD NO GOD(S) REQURED
Best Map Ever Made of Universe's Oldest Light: Planck Mission Brings Universe Into Sharp Focus
Mar. 21, 2013 — The Planck space mission has released the most accurate and detailed map ever made of the oldest light in the universe, revealing new information about its age, contents and origins.
oops source
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130321084221.htm
The laws of nature do not have a naturalistic cause. The cause of the laws of nature was not the laws of nature.
“The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve”1 (Eugene P. Wigner).
There is an objective mathematical structure seen in the physical universe. An example is the relationship of the periodic table and mathematics. One element is distinguished from another by the number of electrons, neutrons, and protons.
“How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality?”2 (Albert Einstein).
Of course the religious support a pathway to citizenship. Most illegal aliens are from Central/South America and are therefore pre-brainwashed religious.
Much easier for them to get the suckers to convert to their flavor of religion and take their money.
South of the border it's almost all Catholic. The fundies here don't much like the thought of a wave of Catholics coming over the border.
Change your thinking and return to God.
In the act of repentance there is hope of
– new thinking
– new acting
– new life
– (you simply don't get this when you still think you are right about something)
Don't listen when people say that following Christ means being right:
To follow the crucified and resurrected one is to live as a people who get to be wrong!
– and be re-born to new life in Christ.
I hope I am often wrong... so I may drink deeply from this grace of God which makes all things news.
"- (you simply don't get this when you still think you are right about something)"
This seems misguided. Have you not made presumptions of being "right" simply by the facts that you 1)claim there is a god, 2)claim you have chosen the correct god, and 3)that Christ was actually ressurected. These would all be examples of things that you "think your are right about"......
Yea, if you don't believe in God – you should probably stop reading where I said "return to God."
Attacking rejection of religious claims doesn't change the fact that you accuse others of doing precisely what you did yourself (presume to be 'right').....
How can anyone return to something that doesn't exist and therefore they never came from.
I'm wrong, too? Probably so. May God have mercy on me.
@metanoia,
I thought you were making a lot of sense, but I was wrong.
You want to drink deeply from your god, eh? Gross.... Jeebus who was a flea-ridden unwashed hippy with unkempt beard and dirty fingernails.
The fairest pathway to citizenship is to go back to your home country, apply for citizenship and wait your turn in line behind others who are doing it legally.
Giving a free ride to citizenship for people who are here illegally would mean most of the countries listed below would descend upon our borders and/or shores. Not good at all !!! Time we cut our own grass and cook our own food !!!
Country of origin
Raw numbers Percent
Mexico
6,650,000 62%
El Salvador
530,000 5%
Guatemala
480,000 4%
Honduras
320,000 3%
Philippines
270,000 2%
India
200,000 2%
Korea
200,000 2%
Ecuador
170,000 2%
Brazil
150,000 1%
China
120,000 1%
Other 1,650,000 15%
There are an estimated 50,000 Irish illegal immigrants in the U.S.; 30,000 of them are thought to live in New York City. Today, this tiny corner in the northern reaches of the Bronx is perhaps the most heavily Irish-born neighborhood in New York, and advocates believe that as many as 40% of local immigrants are undocu-mented
So I think I found the outer limit of your rationality.
Gee, Reality, I suppose you think that 50,000 Irish immigrants const itutes an "epidemic."
You're beyond silly.
Somebody doesn't like Irish people. Or anyone else, apparently.
St. Patricks Day really freaks you out.
There was a question as to whether there are any Irish illegal aliens in the USA. Obviously there are but as noted above not a large number. And btw, I married a girl of Irish descent some 40 years ago and I am still married to that lovely gal and we indeed enjoy a St. Pat's feast every March 17th, all cooked and served without the need of illegal aliens.
Automation and robotics will soon eliminate human cheap labor in any form so why add to the unemployment burdens?
I should think there are illigal immigrants of every nationality. Betcha can find a least one in every flavor.
The problem still remains that the congress and the parties have not defined what will happen to ever prevent this stupidity from happening again and again and to stop making decisions that actually decrease the quality of life of the citizens they represent. No to citizenship and the responsibility falls of the heads of the political parties not average Americans.
So for many the Golden Rule is still applicable?
No.
Yes.
Maybe.
I wish the American religious supported a pathway to rationality.
What our schools need is a moment of science.
New science standards (Stem standards) for 2013 created by 26 states majority (US). ! plus the bend DOVER.
Dover Trial Transcripts
Below are the complete transcripts from the Dover Trial. Thanks to our friends at the National Center for Science Education for helping us fill in the missing transcripts.
http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm
Peace
@The real Tom,
Yes!
This picture again? Again? Again?
Giving a free ride to citizenship for people who are here illegally would mean most of Mexico, Haiti, Cuba , the Domincan Republic and Ireland would descend upon our bordersand shores. Not good all !!! Time we cut our own grass and cook our own food !!!
Oh, shut up, Reality. Ireland??? Really??? What is this, 1908?? You are a fucking bigot, both racially and religiously. Is there anything you DO approve of, besides your overblown stinking sense of egotism at your perceived intelligence? Piss of, asshole. You're unimportant, and so is your dumb opinion. Your sense of reality is sick.
And how much "shoreline" do Mexico and the US share, anyway, dick head? How many illegal immigrants sail in from Mexico?? Across the river, perhaps. From the ocean? Not so much. Are your retarded? What an idiot.