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March 25th, 2013
11:00 PM ET
Who is on God's side of the marriage debate?By Dan Merica, CNN Washington (CNN) – As the Supreme Court considers two major same-sex marriage cases that could change marriage in the United States, religious leaders on both sides of the debate believe they are on God's side of the contentious issue. In the months leading up to this week's Supreme Court hearings, religious leaders from across the country have held prayer vigils and rallies for their respective causes. At each event, even those with diametrically opposed views, leaders cite biblical principles as the foundation for their beliefs. "I believe I am on God's side," Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and and opponent of same-sex marriage, told CNN. "I have no question in what God says marriage is." "I do think we are on God's side because my idea of God is someone that is loving," said the Rev. Gary Hall, dean of the Washington National Cathedral and a proponent of same-sex marriage. "My understanding is that kind of God that loves everyone and wants everyone to live a joyful life." This week, the Supreme Court will hear two cases. One will examine the constitutionality of Proposition 8, a law that prohibited same-sex marriage in California, and the other will test the Defense of Marriage Act, the 1996 legislation that forbids the recognition of same-sex marriages nationwide and bars married gay and lesbian couples from receiving federal benefits. Marriage and the Supreme Court: Five things to watch Land and Hall each have actively worked on his side of this debate. Hall, after taking the reins at the National Cathedral in 2012, decided to marry same-sex couples in the historic church. Land, who has counseled Republican presidents and members of Congress, has written and spoken at length about why same-sex marriage goes against biblical principles. And although they both believe in the Bible, their opinions on how the text views same-sex marriage are shaped by their views on how literally to read the holy book. "I come from a tradition that looks at the big story," said Hall, an Episcopalian. "The image of Jesus in the Bible is of someone who really makes everyone welcome, and it is from that perspective that I operate." Hall acknowledges, however, that the Bible isn't the only guide for this belief. "Our argument is not entirely scriptural-based," Hall said, after acknowledging passages of the holy book that define marriage as being between a man and a woman. "There is no place in the Bible that I can point to that says Jesus performed a same-sex marriage or anything like that." In addition to scripture, Hall said, "tradition and reason" anchor his belief that same-sex couples should be allowed to wed. There are about 2 million Episcopalians in the United States. CNN Belief: My Take: Will gay rights infringe on religious liberty? Land, on the other hand, cites the chapters and verses that guide his views on same-sex marriage. "The people who take a more conservative view of the Bible and believe that they are under the authority of scripture almost universally oppose same-sex marriage," Land said about people who agree with him. For Land, this view is not only consistent but also roots his belief in "traditional values" and his disgust with "moral relativism." Land, a Southern Baptist, continued: "The people who are religious and support same-sex marriage tend to take a Dalmatian view of scripture. They believe the Bible is divine in spots, and they think they can spot the spots." If the Supreme Court decides in favor of same-sex marriage, Land said, the decision would be on par with the court's 1973 decision on Roe v. Wade, which affirmed a woman's right to an abortion. "I think it will evoke a similar reaction," Land said. Southern Baptists count 16 million members in the United States. CNN Poll: 'Rob Portman effect' fuels support for same-sex marriage This split over the biblical reasoning behind each side of the marriage debate extends beyond just Land and Hall, however. Churches around the country have been divided on the issue, with some choosing to allow same-sex marriage and others to forbid it. The Rev. Jacqui Lewis, the senior minister at Middle Collegiate Church in New York who has worked with the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation on same-sex marriage, comes down in favor of same-sex marriage. She uses the Bible - and civil rights - in her reasoning. "I don't think that people who are supporting gay marriage need to distance themselves from the Bible in needing to find support," Lewis said. When asked about how the Bible anchors her beliefs, she cited Mark 12:31: "Love your neighbor as yourself." On the other side of the argument is Robert Gagnon, a biblical scholar at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary who has worked with the Family Research Council on the issue. "Only a woman is a true sexual compliment to a man and vice versa," said Gagnon, citing Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24, along with the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, as the reasoning behind his view on same-sex marriage. "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh," reads Genesis 2:24. As for how he feels about people such as Hall who use the Bible to defend their position in support of same-sex marriage: "You are rejecting Jesus himself. ... Just go ahead and make up your own religion." soundoff (2,640 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Why doesn't government just get out of the marriage business entirely? Let churches decide who they want to marry and the rest can enter into a legally binding contract. But the government just views us all as individual beings with no idea comment or even knowledge about our private lives.
I'd like that arrangement a lot better.
Crazy religious people would just complain that they have to get a civil union if gay people are allowed to get them. Why do you think North Carolina banned civil unions last year?
Tom,
That's exaclty how it works. Churches can conduct whatever marriages they want within their walls, and they can recognize whatever marriages or unions they choose. The government has teh capacity to perform its own LEGAL marriages, which are recognized by official federal and state bodies and have absolutely no authority in churches. The case on hand is that some churches have decided that they should have the right to tell the government who can and can't have a legal marriage contract. How does that make sense?
That's always been an interesting option, but the changes to get there from now with regard to tax law and everything else just boggles the mind.
Once the boundaries of marriage are totally broken down, I understand Rush Limbaugh is considering marrying his sofa.
If his sofa could express intent, it would probably say no to Limbaugh's fat ass.
Though his sofa can't give legal consent, I suspect his sofa is smart enough to say no.
mr, great minds...
Only if it's a Chesterfield sofa.
indeed....
Oh jeez. I hope Febreze is the maid of honor.
Yeah, because lowering the voting age to 18 meant we saw 4 year olds voting by the end of the decade.
Religion has NO place in this discussion. The debate is about the legality of withholding legal recognition of a contract between two people which once recognized by the federal government leads to personal protections and rights that are not afforded without that contract. Pure and simple. Religions can do whatever they want, they should not be allowed to interfere with the marriage contract.
So should any body have the right to "interfere with the marriage contract" of a sister and brother? Or of a man and his 4th wife? No one should say anything about that?
What in the heck do you mean religion has no part in this? It has everything to do with it, that is if you believe religion. This will infringe on religious people and churches. They can have their civil unions and get all their rights, I don't care. This will lead to our churches being forced to marry. And don't tell me that won't happen, look what Obamacare is doing to Catholics to pay for abortions, birth control they are against it. That used to be called RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, to practice their beliefs, not have them cohersed upon them. Guess what- you can't tell me I have to give up my first amendment(religion) to accomodate a civil right. Go to church, you just might need it to break through your silliness. Read the bible, that would be a good start, guess what it say's. Then get on your knees and pray.
@Chris,
"So should any body have the right to "interfere with the marriage contract" of a sister and brother? Or of a man and his 4th wife? No one should say anything about that?"
Are you really that stupid or have you been fed this line so often by your pastor that you think it makes sense? You realize language changes daily and yet we still have worlds and can talk. Allowing 18 year olds to vote didn't mean anyone could vote. Allowing people who have speeding tickets to work as nurses doesn't mean we let child abusers work as nurses. Allowing interracial couples to marry didn't mean we allowed people to marry their pets. Really, are you so stupid you understand neither language nor law or are you just particularly susceptible to brainwashing?
There are about the same number of gays in America as Russian immigrants. But the Russian immigrants don't demand nearly as much media attention. We have important issues to worry about that affect 100 percent of us, not just one percent.
Like our crippling spending crisis on the part of our government, maybe?
Of course Major Major Major Major: We can only focus on one thing at a time
Major, why did you even post, then?
Russian immigrants can get married if they want to.
After about another century, gay marriage will probably just be one more form of marriage and be unremarkable as such. Humans will look back on the bigoted evangifundies of today who oppose gay marriage, and regard them much as we now regard the racist slavery supporters of a previous era.
Hopefully over the same period if not sooner, Christianity and other wacko beliefs will also have subsided and become less popular, although my more pessimistic side thinks they will just get replaced by other dogma.
@Jen : After about another century, gay marriage will probably just be one more form of marriage and be unremarkable as such.
Do you feel it is appropriate for gays to avoid their fair share of taxes?
L4H, do you like begging the question?
Jen: Zing! 🙂
@Live4Him I'd like to see churches start paying taxes. Thanks for bringing that up.
I am guessing you are about 100% wrong. Their is one judge and since you don't belive(OBVIOUSLY) good luck, is all I can say to you. I think we will find out who is on the wrong side, and I am going way out on a twig, and say it is you. Please don't say anything about Christians if you can't say it without hate. You need to find a church and pray for your soul.
Matthew 25:14-30
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
God is in my heart before He was in your book. Nice try but I don't need prejudices borne of God's word when I can trust in him directly as I do everyday.
Let men deny Holey Matrimony with dusty books while God does not?
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
–YODA, Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else - and it hasn't - it's that girls should stick to girl's sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such and such.
- Homer Simpson
More fun quotes
'Merica! F Yea!
I want to invite you all to church this Sunday. Find the pastor and ask him to sit down and talk with you about your questions and even objections.
And atheists would like to invite you to the American Atheists Convention to ask questions.
Right. Before you go disbelieving in leprechauns you should talk to the expert on fairy tales.
@The NON BELIEVER. I'm not over at the atheist's forums attacking them for what they believe. But they're over here. Besides, I the atheists I've met have no joy in their lives; however, the Christians I know love each other and do have joy. Besides, I've experienced the goodness and grace of God in my life. Why would I want to leave Him? He has demonstrated His love for me!
@Arcy. I have no joy in my life. FAIL dude.
"I'm not over at the atheist's forums attacking them for what they believe. But they're over here. Besides, I the atheists I've met have no joy in their lives; however, the Christians I know love each other and do have joy."
Why do you feel a debate is an attack? This is a news site not a Christian site.
As a non-believer, I enjoy life to the fullest. I love life, I love my family and friends, and I have as strong an ethical code as any religious person. Why do you think belief in some afterlife in heaven is the only reason to feel joy? Doesn't it make you terribly sad all the time when you look around and realize that the vast majority of people you see in the world are supposed to go to hell for eternity? What is so joyous about believing in a story like that?
@Arcy sorry to hear that the atheists you've met have no joy in their lives. Is that their admission or your imagination? My life is amazing and joyful from top to bottom.
@biobraine There are many on here who are not addressing the arguments for faith, but instead responding with ad hominem and nothing more. That's an attack on the person, not the argument. With regards to being sad for so many who are spiritually lost, it does indeed make me sad. I don't attack them nor do I hate them. There's also a difference between the word joy and happiness. I don't deny that non-believers experience happiness.
@Arcy I pity that you believe joy can only come from compulsory worship.
Have you spent a day with a leader in every religion and secular view, asking questions and listening with an open mind? Until you have spent at least a day a week for a few years trying to knock of the top few hundred belief systems don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.
God doesn't take sides... only people do.
Jacob I have loved. Esau I have hated. (Mal. 1:2-3)
Tell it to the Amelikites
Arcy,
That's a good point you make, why is it that an all powerful being only had enough love to give to one child, who was brought to the head of the line by trickery and deceipt. Sounds a bit petty and mean for an omnipotent and benevolent divine being.
@BRC (From Romans 9:20-24) But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
@Arcy,
"god" can be as wrathful as he likes at me for questioning him, loving one child and scorning another because of one of the mother's schemings (which you would think "God" would be able to see through), is a D1ck move. Interestingly enough, I'm never worried when 4ssholes are mad at me, usually means I'm doing something right. I'll keep checking back in case you feel like giving an actual answer that isn't "better not question 'God' or he'll get you".
@BRC your last response (above) is so far out there I don't no how it even relates to the discussion you and I were having. I honestly don't know how to respond to your post. I'm not being rude, you just honestly lost me.
@Arcy,
Fair enough, try working with this. Instead of quoting unrelated scripture (we were discussing OT and you pulled in a NT verse), tell me how YOU rationalize that "god" loved and decided to protect and uphold the the line of one child, who's mother used deception to bring him in front of his blind father before the actual first born son, while scorning and forever casting aside the other son's line? Can't an all powerful "God" love and support both family lines completely? How was the "God" fooled? Those are my questions, do you have an answer?
@clarity : Anonymously-written gospels.
You keep advancing this claim, but would you care to elucidate?
@clarity : Opinion, among a significant number of scholars that the writings about the gospels have been tampered with
Which the empirical evidence refutes.
1) Comparing like passages across as many as 24,000 differnt manuscripts, they are 99.9% identical. This shows that no tampering was possible unless it is prior to 125 AD.
2) These NT passages were quoted by the early church leaders so much that all bu 11 verses can be recreated from their writings alone. Again, this shows any tampering would need to be done during the lifetimes of the apostles.
@clarity : That several early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr could only up with the whacky notion of 'diabolical mimicry' to explain why the gospels looked so much like earlier writings.
Again, you're twisting the facts. I've read his writings (require reading for a course) and his argument was against pagan religions who were changing THEIR deity's attributes to match Jesus' attributes.
-----
@Paul : Once I read it I was able to realize it for the nonsense that it truly is.
What empirical evidence caused you to change your views?
Live for who?
@longfoot : Live for who?
Christ
WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS
Live4Him
@clarity : Anonymously-written gospels.
You keep advancing this claim, but would you care to elucidate?
@clarity : Opinion, among a significant number of scholars that the writings about the gospels have been tampered with
L4H: [ " Which the empirical evidence refutes.
1) Comparing like passages across as many as 24,000 differnt manuscripts, they are 99.9% identical. This shows that no tampering was possible unless it is prior to 125 AD.
2) These NT passages were quoted by the early church leaders so much that all bu 11 verses can be recreated from their writings alone. Again, this shows any tampering would need to be done during the lifetimes of the apostles. " ]
Empirical evidence is not needed to refute, since the evidence supporting is itself, not empirical evidence. But anyway, take Josephus for instance. Are you not aware that there has always been great scholarly suspicion about key parts of his writings pertaining to the Jesus character?
@clarity : That several early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr could only up with the whacky notion of 'diabolical mimicry' to explain why the gospels looked so much like earlier writings.
L4H: [ "Again, you're twisting the facts. I've read his writings (require reading for a course) and his argument was against pagan religions who were changing THEIR deity's attributes to match Jesus' attributes. " ]
Again, I am only stating what sounds fishy amongst my other points. If they had a good excuse for the charges against plagiarism, I would think they would have used them over getting Satan involved in their defense. That is the point. When when everyone is claiming empirical evidence based on some know writings here and there, what I am saying is that the excuses being made to defend or support them are very telling.
Sorry, Who ?
Allah, Buddha, Guru Nanak, Xenu. I'm confused
@clarity : Empirical evidence is not needed to refute
So, it is your opinion only. NEXT!
Creationists ..................................................was the bible around back then ? you too L4H NEXT !
Human Y Chromosome Much Older Than Previously Thought
Mar. 4, 2013 — The discovery and analysis of an extremely rare African American Y chromosome pushes back the time of the most recent common ancestor for the Y chromosome lineage tree to 338,000 years ago. This time predates the age of the oldest known anatomically modern human fossils.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305145821.htm
No god(s) needed or required .
And as the other poster asked – we still don't have an answer on who wrote the gospels. That kind of sucks as a basis for a belief, not actually knowing for certain who wrote the key stories.
hahahaha another xian retard that has a hard time accepting the FACT that the "gospels" were penned by anonymous sources.
i love it.
all the accounts of jebus are HEARSAY...
the more you know...
How arrogant that ANY OF US might think we KNOW what God thinks! Arrogance (aka pride) is a sin in most religions but obviously they don't mind.
I am Christian – my God loves everyone (as does my church, UCC). I myself am not gay, but I hope gay marriage bans are ruled illegal – in MA they have been legal for some years and it's still standing! Legalization hasn't changed anything – we just have more weddings here.
The forefathers (as the Tea Partiers love to use) stated that there be a separation of church and state – therefore, the Justices cannot rule on marriage because of religion. What other reason is there for gay marriage and rights to be illegal?
@Sherri : I am Christian
How do you reconcile your opposing views to Jesus's teachings?
Jesus was silent on the issue of homosexuality. Paul should have been. So should you be, Live4Him.
Perhaps she wants all to have equal rights
My experience of God has always been of a being far greater, loving, forgiving, understanding, tolerant and creative than any human can imagine. And all the suffering and tragedy that affect our lives? The result of human action and/or bad luck, not the result of humans' inattention to the Almighty (pretty egocentric to think we have that kind of effect, isn't it?).
All you anti-God folks posting should consider believing in YOUR experience of God, not what others proclaim. You may find that you do indeed believe in a power greater than yourself.
Wow, so wrong. God's not like that at all. Read his book. The things he does to sinners will curl your hair. And he isn't much easier on the righteous. Ask his buddy Job. You're lucky if he just ignores you.
"All you anti-God folks posting should consider believing in YOUR experience of God, not what others proclaim. You may find that you do indeed believe in a power greater than yourself"
This is exactly what I have done. This is exactly why I greatly doubt the existence of any gods. And for the record, I am not anti-god. Not believing in something does not mean you are against it. If any gods ever made themselves known to me I would have no problem believing.
What we should bw asking is "what would Anderson Cooper do"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PCLF2ji0rZI
What a bunch of rubbish! Spare us your evangelical, selective, irrational reasoning. While you're at it, ask God what happened in Newtown and the World Trade Center. Was he/she asleep at the wheel or off saving the starving, disease ridden masses in other parts of the world?
It is called "free will" which you're using now, but there is accountability in the future. 🙂
In the U.S. recently we learned of the head of Lutheran CMS chastising a minister of that church for participating in a joint service for the victims of the Newtown school shooting.
One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage.
One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags".
One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri.
One sect believes women to be subservient, while another sect in the same denomination promotes equality between the sexes.
Some believe the Pope is the Anti-Christ. Some believe Obama is the Anti-Christ.
Some believe that celibacy is appropriate for certain people, or for certain positions. It's ridiculous. Celibacy is unnatural and will continue to cause problems for the religious institutions that employ it.
Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but don't understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease.
Conflicted right from the very beginning, Christianity continues to splinter and create divisions and more extremism as time goes by.
. . . . . .
Christianity or people?
Both. These issues go back to the roots of Christianity.
The only sticking point seems to be God.
Remove God from the equation and the problem is solved.
Funny how this seems to be the answer to so many problems in the world today.
Is it the answer or the creator of the problems?
Why does GOD have his followers such as priests carry out his work of abusing children? Surely he does not care of two adults wanting to marry if he wants his priests to commit crimes with children.
Now this is some screwed up logic.
God is imaginary.
Okay :-), you'll see!
You can't prove that.