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April 4th, 2013
12:51 AM ET

Tutu wins Templeton Prize

By the CNN Wire Staff

(CNN)–
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Anglican cleric who played a key role in ending apartheid in South Africa, is the winner of the 2013 Templeton Prize, the foundation that awards the prize announced Thursday.

The Templeton Prize "honors a living person who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works," the John Templeton Foundation says on its website.

Desmond Mpilo Tutu, the son of a schoolteacher and a domestic servant, was ordained a priest in 1961.

In 1975, he became the first black priest appointed Anglican dean of St. Mary's Cathedral in Johannesburg.

He became bishop of Lesotho the following year, and in 1978 he was named the first black secretary general of the interdenominational South African Council of Churches.

Tutu, now 81, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 for his efforts to end and heal the wounds of apartheid, South Africa's system of institutionalized racial segregation.

South African President Nelson Mandela appointed him to lead South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

The affable icon served as Archbishop of Cape Town - overseeing the church throughout South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Swaziland and Lesotho - from 1986 until his retirement in 1996. He retired from public life in 2010.

He is the founder of the Desmond Tutu Peace Trust and a member of The Elders, a group of elder statesmen from around the world who work to solve global problems.

Other members of the group include Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, Mary Robinson and Mohammed Yunus.

Tutu was successfully treated in the United States for prostate cancer in 1997.

He has served as a visiting professor at Emory University in Atlanta and Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

President Barack Obama awarded Tutu the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2009.

The Mo Ibrahim Foundation awarded him a $1 million prize for "his lifelong commitment to speaking truth to power."

Sir John Templeton was a Tennessee-born Rhodes Scholar who made billions on Wall Street.

He was a pioneer in mutual funds, establishing the Templeton Growth Fund in 1954.

He established the Templeton Prize in 1972, seeking to encourage exploration of spiritual ideas, particularly as they relate to science.

"I grew up as a Presbyterian," he once told an interviewer, according to his foundation. "Presbyterians thought the Methodists were wrong. Catholics thought all Protestants were wrong. The Jews thought the Christians were wrong.

"So, what I'm financing is humility. I want people to realize that you shouldn't think you know it all."

To emphasize the importance of spirituality, Templeton insisted that the monetary award for his foundation's prize - currently 1.1 million British pounds, or $1,656,402 - always exceed that of the Nobel Prize ($1.2 million in 2012).

The Dalai Lama was awarded the Templeton Prize last year.

Previous honorees include Mother Teresa in 1973, the first year it was awarded, evangelist Billy Graham (1982), author Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (1983), and physicist Freeman Dyson (2000).

- CNN

Filed under: Church • South Africa

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soundoff (216 Responses)
  1. Your comment is awaiting moderation.lol?? Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    When he and the gang were serving time they were praying for Muslim supermodels. Visitation rights that is.

    April 7, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
  2. zeke inouye

    before I saw the receipt that said $8308, I didn't believe ...that...my neighbour was actualey earning money in their spare time on their apple laptop.. there sisters neighbour has done this for only 16 months and resantly repayed the morgage on their apartment and purchased a great new Fiat Panda. this is where I went........... ZOO80. ℂom

    April 6, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      ooo ooo oahhh memememememe!! *waving arms madly*

      I have a bank account you can drain! please! scam me! im on my way to that site now!

      April 7, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
  3. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things,

    April 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!.

      April 5, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Really?

      "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things"

      That's why the data: has shown that atheists have happier and healthier lives than conservative Christians. Your post is built on a lie!

      April 5, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
  4. SAAB

    for a second. I thought Tutu won a Tampon award, so much for the speed reading

    April 4, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Flung

      No, that's pretty much what it said anyway. A con-man like Tutu deserves nothing less.

      April 7, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • save the world and slap some sense into a Christard today?

      What's the con – flung?

      April 7, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
  5. Claims Require Evidence Because That Is Science!

    Mother Teresa was a bit of a masochist, wasn't it? It was.

    April 4, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
  6. meifumado

    Do you think Tutu wears a tutu to?

    April 4, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • meifumado

      Sorry.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Alias

      No, Tutu wears Mumu

      April 4, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
  7. Topher

    HeavenSent

    I get this really strange feeling inside that you're an atheist trolling around here to make us true followers of Christ look bad. You need to leave!

    April 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • sam stone

      Topher is right. He does that well enough on his own, he needs no help

      April 4, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      LOL. HeavenSent has more biblical support for her hate and bigotry than you do with your passive aggressive, selective responses that really answer nothing.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • meifumado

      Oh man, this is good!

      April 4, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Zorro

      I've never met an christian more smart on the bible than an atheist.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Saraswati

      I'm leaning that way too Topher...not convinced anyone is that dumb.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Now you atheists are stealing Topher's handle to write your lies.

      As for hawaiiguest, Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

      Hosea 6:9
      Romans 1:25-28
      Ezekiel 13:19

      Amen.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Claims Require Evidence Because That Is Science!

      How would you know if someone "stole" his handle if you weren't the one behind it?

      April 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      And if I gave even a single shit about what the bible says, your post might mean something. But then again, that one mysoginistic, evil, divisive, hate-filled book is your only source for any kind of thought. We can all tell because you emulate those characteristics very well every day that you post here.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, you have the right to use your free will incorrectly. Remember though, you freely forfeit the right to dwell with Jesus for eternity. He will abide in your choice to be blotted out.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You can assert what your sky daddy will do to me if I don't kiss his ass, but until you can give any evidence any of it is real, it's just you trying to scare others into agreeing with your bigotry.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, I realize that your sinful ways has a hold on you. The issue is, when are you going to acknowledge this fact.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • Claims Require Evidence Because That Is Science!

      Free will from a theological standpoint is nonexistent due to the fact that one's existence is non-negotiable. You, in smaller, simpler terminology do not have the choice in whether or not you are born, thus your fate is already decided by the deity of your choice. Thus, free will does not exist and decisions are not your own. For those of us enjoying our freedom outside the theological bubble, we are not bound by your alleged fate.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      And more irrelevant stupidity instead of actually addressing a post. Are you really that much of a coward?

      April 4, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • OTOH

      hawaiiguest,

      I don't really know if HS is a coward or not, but irrelevantly stupid... that would be a yes - proven over and over again.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, you insist you are going to live your life the sinful way you want to. I said that it's your right to give up your free will and not make it through eternity with Jesus. Mmmmhhhhhhhhhhh, 50,60,70 to 90 or 100 years down on earth versus eternity and that makes me a coward in your opinion. LOL.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, not only are you blind spiritually, but, there seems to be something wrong with your carnal eyesight as well. I did answer the phony Topher's post.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      And you have yet to be able to demonstrate anything you say has even a chance of being true. As I said, you can assert all kinds of things your sky daddy will do to me if I don't kiss his ass, but until you can present anything other than assertions to back it up, you're just talking out of your ass and attempting to scare people into turning off their thought processes.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Hawiiguest, I'm only posting truth. I'm not doing anything to you. You own how you perceive my posts.

      2 Peter 3:3 is some of what is going on with you, also, you don't know His truth, you bought into the lies of traditions of man.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You are asserting that what you say is truth. You have not demonstrated it, and all you ever do is post irrelevant, worthless bible crap and threaten people that your sky daddy will punish them if they don't agree 100% with what you say.
      This is your cowardice. You inability and unwillingness to even respond relevantly to posts. Your complete arrogance and condescension to those who will not accept your words on the basis that you say it a lot and you assert it to be truth.
      You have nothing but empty threats and the hope that people are as thoughtless, immoral, bigoted, and hateful as you.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      2 Timothy 4:2-4
      2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

      3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

      4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      Amen.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      And once again, no response, just another worthless bible verse. Pathetic.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Hawaiiguest, as usual you pay attention to what you want to know, instead of learning what you need to know.

      April 4, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You would need to actually demonstrate it's something I need to know. I know you're a coward, but at least try to keep your responses somewhat relevant.

      April 4, 2013 at 7:09 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, my responsibility as a Christian is to sew seeds. If you want to stay the rock. So be it.

      April 5, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Zorro, you posted, "I've never met an christian more smart on the bible than an atheist."

      Answer: The smart atheist converted to Christianity.

      April 5, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You still have nothing relevant, so you apparently need to just continue to spew out empty bullit. Truly sad.

      April 5, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

      Ti tus 2:12

      Amen.

      April 5, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      Still pathetic. Are you just trying to post inane bullshit hoping I will leave, and you will then have the last post and that will confirm in your fucked up, deluded mind that you've "won" something?

      April 5, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
  8. Alias

    Another bible prophesies is about to be fulfilled:
    Gay marriage and Marijuana are both about to be legalized.
    The bible says that if a man lay with another man, he should be stoned.
    Leviticus 2013
    We just didn't interpret it correctly until now!

    April 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Phil

      Hilarious.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Colin

      That really is witty

      April 4, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Akira

      This made me laugh, Alias; thanks!

      April 4, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Old joke that ensures Jesus' truth isn't heard or taken seriously. Reminder, repent to Jesus Christ of all your sins that you know of and haven't a clue that was a sin, then sin no more.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • meifumado

      Well done sir!

      April 4, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Saraswati

      lol...good one

      April 4, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
    • breathe deep

      If only heavenscent would stop judging others would he/she stop damning their soul to eternal hellfire.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      breathe deep, writing scriptures is sewing seeds, It has absolutely nothing to do with judging. If you feel that's judgement, that's your perception that you own.. That's all. You either are fertile ground (receptive) that His wisdom falls on or you are a rock (rejecting His truth). Your choice. It's called freewill.

      April 5, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
  9. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    I heard Desmond Tutu speak at commencement a few years before I graduated. I became interested in his writing after that. Desmond Tutu seems to be in control of his religion rather the other way around (which is more usual). I believe this is because he has maintained ties with a great variety of communities of wildly varying beliefs throughout his lifetime. His statement "God is not a Christian" basically casts away the notion that God is focused on the particulars of belief. Rather, he maintains that God sees the moral nature or image of people and can transform it. It is a little sad that he still needs God, and needs for people to need God, to define moral standards. Still, if every Christian were like him we'd have much less pain in the world.

    April 4, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Colin

      Interesting. I had no idea he was not just another parochial Christian.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Saraswati

      "If God, as they say, is hom.ophobic, I wouldn't worship that God."

      "Our world is facing problems – poverty, HIV and Aids – a devastating pandemic, and conflict...In the face of all of that, our Church, especially the Anglican Church, at this time is almost obsessed with questions of human se.xuality."

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7100295.stm

      April 4, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
  10. Reality

    Tutu, good man, good speaker but with a flawed religion both theologically and historically

    April 4, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      What is a flawed religion? Is that somehow different from some other kind of religion?

      April 4, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Reality

      No. Added details previously given. The Henry VIII anchor around Tutu's neck is huge.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
  11. William Demuth

    Rainer

    That’s just silly my friend

    Judaism came before Christianity. The worshipers of Christ were Jews, as was Christ.

    You merely elected to define him as a Messiah, a crown which he himself rejected.

    Christians are nothing more than lapsed Jews.

    April 4, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • sam stone

      sorry, wrong thread

      April 5, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
  12. William Demuth

    I am curious

    Do Christians believe that other Gods that humans worship are merely misinterpretations of their God, other things (like demons and such not), frauds, or delusions?

    April 4, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • Templeton

      You either worship God or you worship satan. You choose, you decide!

      April 4, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • Peter Gomes

      QUOTE:
      Within the teachings of Jesus we have case after case of Jesus pointing to a God who is larger than the conventional wisdom, who is not downsized by the petty pieties of those who would constrain him by their own limited knowledge and experience. In my youth I used to hear of the competing songs from the Methodist and Baptist churches on opposite street corners on a Sunday evening. The Methodists would lustily sing the hymn “Will There Be Any Stars in My Crown?” and the Baptists would sing one of their favorite songs, “No, Not One.”

      Each church thought itself alone, not in the universe but in God’s favor, although Jesus constantly points out that God’s generosity is greater than ours.

      How fortunate it is that God is in charge, and not simply Christians.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:41 am |
    • Peter Gomes

      Such a God is parochial, provincial, and unworthy of the praises directed toward him; only God, who does provide for everybody, even in ways unknown or unclear to Christians, is a God who deserves the t|tle “Creator of the World.” Just because you and I cannot account for the religions of other people does not mean that the God whom we worship cannot.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • A Conversation

      I think there are too many understandings of who or what God is to answer that. From a Christian perspective, I would say that most protestant (I wouldn't purport to understand all denominations) churches and the catholic church and jews do worship the same God–Christians applying one major distinction (trinity) that Jews would not, so my guess is that a jew would disagree with this perspective. I think there a number of sects purporting to worship the Christian God (for lack of a better description) that apply other attributes to god that I personally think are so different, that it is a different god altogether (mormons fit into this category).

      April 4, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • A Conversation

      William, taking another look at your question, and then my tortured first response, I think the better answer to your question: "Do Christians believe that other Gods that humans worship are merely misinterpretations of their God, other things (like demons and such not), frauds, or delusions" is merely "yes–some are misinterpretations, some a other things, some are frauds and some are based on delusions." An impossible question (that is not a criticism, in fact, its a good question), gets an impossible answer.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Well actually I believe it is quite simple really.

      If a God does exist (I do not believe one does) than it seems to me that the similarities of all religions might indicate they are all targeting the same diety.

      That is unless there really are more than one.

      I believe montheisim created all this strife. Religion wants to keep Polytheistic concepts (like the Trinity, demons and such not) but wants their God to be the Ubber God, so we have migrated to where we are.

      Many issues would be solved if the Multi God concept made a return.

      In fact simple logic indicates that if all religions insist the others are false, and no religion has more than a fifty percent adherance, than the majority of humans are worshiping a God that does not exist.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
    • Puppies and Kittens Taste Delicious When Cooked Properly

      50%?

      Wouldn't that be 100% since there are no deities to begin with?

      April 4, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • sam stone

      Thanks for the concise analysis, Simpleton

      There is no free will with an omniscient god

      April 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • sam stone

      Topher: How does one about trusting something they have never heard of?

      April 5, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
  13. Topher

    "I grew up as a Presbyterian," he once told an interviewer, according to his foundation. "Presbyterians thought the Methodists were wrong. Catholics thought all Protestants were wrong. The Jews thought the Christians were wrong.

    The reasons behind the differences in Presbyterians and Methodists (minor issues) is vastly different than that of Protestants/Catholics and Jews/Christians (major issues).

    April 4, 2013 at 10:20 am |
    • midwest rail

      Maybe. His major point remains valid. Read the nonsense posted by Rainer below. Exactly the type of divisiveness Tutu highlights. In all the months I've posted and interacted here, I have run across one, and only one, Christian poster whom I would wish to be like.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:25 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      But of course, the Jews are God's chosen people and were here first.
      They have the original Word of God (TM) – and therefore ignore the sequels.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:26 am |
    • William Demuth

      Doc

      You just ticked off a bunch of Zoroastrians and a handfull of Egyptians, all of whom had Judaisim before it was Jewish

      April 4, 2013 at 10:30 am |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      I did read what Rainier wrote. He might be right, though I can't say as I don't know much about Tutu. While we can know God's standard He will judge us by (because of God's Word) we can't really ever know if someone else is saved. We can only know our own status.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:34 am |
    • Think

      How are you glorifying God with that post? Or, do you consider this a time pass?

      April 4, 2013 at 10:34 am |
    • midwest rail

      " We can only know our own status. " If that status is "being saved", wouldn't you think that status would cause a transformation so profound that others would wish it for themselves ? Why is that so lacking here ?

      April 4, 2013 at 10:37 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Is Ahura Mazda Abraham's God?

      April 4, 2013 at 10:38 am |
    • Agnes of Dog

      "Minor issues", my ass; see my post below. You may only view them as minor in relation to your more important tenets, but I assure you – to those on the opposite side of the fence, whether they be Christian or not, don't find that assessment very meaningful. See my post below.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:43 am |
    • Agnes of Dog

      (corrected)

      "Minor issues", my ass; see my post below. You may only view them as minor in relation to your most important tenets, but I assure you – to those on the opposite side of the fence, whether they be Christian or not, don't find that assessment very meaningful.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:44 am |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "If that status is "being saved", wouldn't you think that status would cause a transformation so profound that others would wish it for themselves ? Why is that so lacking here ?"

      If you know someone before they are saved and then after, you can tell the difference ... but I can't say that's always the case. And someone else may get saved with their last breath and their loved ones would have no idea. I personally am not who I was. Not even close.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:45 am |
    • sam stone

      d"While we can know God's standard He will judge us by (because of God's Word) we can't really ever know if someone else is saved. We can only know our own status."

      You equate the words of Iron Age man (or older) with that of god. If you can only know of your own status, what is the point of evangelism?

      April 4, 2013 at 10:45 am |
    • sam stone

      "If you know someone before they are saved and then after, you can tell the difference ... "

      Yes....they become pompous and insufferable....

      April 4, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "You equate the words of Iron Age man (or older) with that of god. If you can only know of your own status, what is the point of evangelism?"

      The point of evangelism is to make sure everyone knows they are bound for Hell, but that Jesus took their punishment so they can go to Heaven ... that's called The Good News. And make sure they know it takes only repentance and faith to be saved. Whether you believe is up to you, but we need to make sure people know what the Gospel says, does and will do for you.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • sam stone

      "The point of evangelism is to make sure everyone knows they are bound for Hell, but that Jesus took their punishment so they can go to Heaven ... that's called The Good News"

      No, that is called being a pompous and annoying fvck.

      Your god is a pr1ck and you are a snivelling sycophant

      April 4, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • Akira

      I wonder what people would say if Jesus Himself came back and nobody knew he was Christ, and started to gain prominence for spreading his own Word...what the different factions of Christianity would say.

      It would be interesting to see.

      Congratulations, Archbishop Tutu.
      You've inspired many.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • Agnes of Dog

      That's right, Topher, scare people into believing – it's always been about that, right? Conflicted Christians never would have gone anywhere without their pal Satan.

      April 4, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "Your god is a pr1ck and you are a snivelling sycophant"

      Could you please be more clear on your position? 😉

      April 4, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • midwest rail

      Whether anyone knew you before or not should be immaterial. A born-again transformation should be so profound that anyone who meets you would naturally wish to have what you do. Once again, why is that so lacking here ?

      April 4, 2013 at 11:06 am |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "A born-again transformation should be so profound that anyone who meets you would naturally wish to have what you do. Once again, why is that so lacking here ?"

      What do you expect that to look like? Remember, we're still sinners.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Doc, that's not what Jesus said. Jesus doesn't open their eyes and ears until end times.

      But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

      Matthew 19:30

      Amen.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • midwest rail

      It shouldn't "look" like anything. Let's assume that the standard Christian line regarding these blogs is true – that is, the non'believers who post are in search of something. If that is the case, why is there so little to be found ?

      April 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • JMEF

      Topher
      Thanks for using your real handle today you sucked us in real good yesterday. Just to let you know will you will be just as dumb today as you were yesterday, BTW I agree with sam.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "Let's assume that the standard Christian line regarding these blogs is true – that is, the non'believers who post are in search of something. If that is the case, why is there so little to be found ?"

      I've not seen anyone say that, but I think it's true. God says in the Bible that He's given us all a conscience and that conscience is screaming at us that there is a God. So in a matter of speaking (and I'm sure I'll get torched for this) I don't believe anyone is truly an atheist. You may reject there's a God and reject your conscience, but deep down you KNOW He exists.

      I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with "so little to be found."

      April 4, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Topher

      JMEF

      I don't remember posting anything yesterday. But if I did, I certainly didn't use a different name. I've only ever posted under "Topher".

      April 4, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • midwest rail

      I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. In the immortal words of Emily Litella, " never mind".

      April 4, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • sam stone

      i don't care how many Iron Age sheep sod-o-mezers wrote, translated or edited the bible. To claim to speak for god is pompus. If you want to believe that you are deserving of hell, have at it. Slaves will be slaves. To blather that others are is annoying and insulting.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Akira

      "Stop saying that deep down inside, we really do believe in your deity. Belief in the kind of guy who can create an entire universe with the force of a few well-turned phrases is not the sort of secret that fits neatly into a back pocket, as it were. If we thought this fellow was real, we'd be the first to know. And people don't tend to keep that particular nugget of information to themselves. Ever notice that?"

      ~Deborah Markus

      April 4, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Topher

      "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

      - Paul

      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Jesus doesn't open their eyes and ears until end times. "

      Ah, the much promised End Times.

      Annnnyyyy day now.....Jeebus is coming annny day now

      April 4, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • sam stone

      Wow, Topher, A QUOTE. You don't get any more convincing than that, nosireebub

      April 4, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • sam stone

      "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

      "Don't look behind the curtain" – Wizard Of OZ

      Pretty much the same nonsense

      April 4, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Madtown

      but deep down you KNOW He exists
      ----
      It's been said to you countless times, and will be said countless more. No one "KNOWS" anything, when it comes to these questions. Different people believe different things, which is just fine, but in the end no one knows. Too bad for you that you're unable to admit this most basic truth.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • sam stone

      Madtown: I don't think that Topher has any concern over the truth

      April 4, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      "It's been said to you countless times, and will be said countless more. No one "KNOWS" anything, when it comes to these questions. Different people believe different things, which is just fine, but in the end no one knows. Too bad for you that you're unable to admit this most basic truth."

      Does Christianity take faith that it is true; that the Bible is true? Absolutely. But your conscience screams that there's a God of some sort ... that we aren't here because of some cosmic accident.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Saraswati

      "The point of evangelism is to make sure everyone knows they are bound for Hell, but that Jesus took their punishment so they can go to Heaven ... that's called The Good News. And make sure they know it takes only repentance and faith to be saved. Whether you believe is up to you, but we need to make sure people know what the Gospel says, does and will do for you."

      Are you saying that if I never heard of the Christian God I would go to hell? Just checking, because I know many Christians believe that people who never had the opportunity to hear will not go to hell.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Akira

      Mighty big assumption of your part, Topher; that you know what anyone else's conscience is screaming.
      I understand that this was what your conscience may have been screaming to you; I do assure you that, evidenced by the many posters here who say otherwise, this isn't true of all.
      If it brings comfort to you to believe that, fine. It isn't, however, true.
      This was the point I was trying to make with Ms. Markus's quote.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      "Are you saying that if I never heard of the Christian God I would go to hell? Just checking, because I know many Christians believe that people who never had the opportunity to hear will not go to hell."

      This is probably a case of semantics with a lot of Christians, but you will not go to Hell because you never heard of the Christian God. You will go to Hell because you broke His laws. But for forgiveness of sins, you must have Christ.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Topher

      Akira

      It is indeed what my conscience screamed at me, you're right. And my statement above probably is coming off as jerk-ish, and I'm sorry about that. I don't mean it to. And if it were only my experience I could see how you'd feel that way. But God has said He's put it in everyone's mind. That's pretty good backup. God said He's given you two proofs of His existance ... Creation and conscience.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Topher, if a person does not know about your alleged god do they automatically go to your alleged heaven then? Why would a god ignore so many people? Your god is a very poor communicator.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • OTOH

      Topher,

      My conscience never screamed at me louder than when I was trying to teach my innocent, trusting children the "word" of this "God", and all the rest of the fantasy and superst'ition. I had to stop it - for them and for me.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • Topher

      OTOH

      So what changed your mind?

      April 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Puppies and Kittens Taste Delicious When Cooked Properly

      "Topher,"

      I disagree completely. No one knows that "he" exists. In fact, many of us are quite certain no deities exist. After spending more time under the umbrella of faith than you have years on this ball of dirt and water, I can state without a doubt that the texts of your faith are not only incomplete, but false. Many years of reading the texts and locating inconsistencies, lies and contradictions has proven without a shadow of a doubt that it is not the word of a deity, but the words of men that could not keep their stories straight.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • OTOH

      Topher,

      I'm not sure if one's 'conscience' changes, but 40+ years of study, discussion, pondering... and yes, even praying, and discovering not a scintilla of evidence that any supernatural being is out/up/over/under/around there, other than in fantasy - my own, or those of ancient Middle Eastern Hebrew men, or those of any others.

      Fantasy is enjoyable, and can even be productive sometimes, as in brainstorming for solutions, but living in one is not a viable option.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • Saraswati

      I've got to agree with Akira, this assumption that you know what is going on in other people's heads is absurd. The only possible way you could claim to know what's going on in anyone else's brain is because you believe your god has told you. I guarantee you that we all have a much better idea what's happening in our own heads than you do. But think about it: Even if we were wrong, how insulting (and stupid) do you think it sounds to claim you know better than someone else what they are thinking? Do you really think telling people that they are so stupid they don't know what they are thinking is the way to win converts?

      April 4, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Madtown

      sam stone
      Madtown: I don't think that Topher has any concern over the truth
      ----
      Right on Sam. Although, he's fully convinced his "truth" is THE truth.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • Madtown

      But for forgiveness of sins, you must have Christ
      ---–
      Which is impossible if you've never heard of him, and never been exposed to christianity. Another basic logical truth you're unable to accept.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • Topher

      Madtown

      "Which is impossible if you've never heard of him, and never been exposed to christianity. Another basic logical truth you're unable to accept."

      What do you mean I'm unable to accept it? I fully agree with it.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • Madtown

      I fully agree with it.
      ---
      You fully agree with the notion that a human can't follow the teachings of christianity and Jesus if they've never heard of them/him? Great! Now we're getting somewhere! 🙂

      April 4, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Akira

      How can one go to hell for breaking laws one didn't even know existed, if they have never heard of the Christian God?
      This is where your logic fails, Topher, and I don't mean that disrespectfully.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
    • Topher

      Akira

      I know you don't and I appreciate it. We will be judged by God's morals laws — the 10 Commandments. You don't need to know they are called that, but God says He's written His laws on our hearts. For instance, you don't need to be told lying is wrong. Or stealing. Or murdering. So we do know His laws. And we break them anyway.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Isn't it grand how Christianity co-opts evolutionary adaptations of highly social creatures as "proof" of their god? Such honesty inherent in their doctrine.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • Saraswati

      "He's written His laws on our hearts. For instance, you don't need to be told lying is wrong. Or stealing. Or murdering."

      You picked the easy ones Topher. We know that even many non-human animals feel empathy and that it helps survival of the group and so wins out in evolution. Try presenting an argument regarding the first few commandments. With evidence.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      "You picked the easy ones Topher."

      Fair enough. But that doesn't belittle the point.

      "We know that even many non-human animals feel empathy and that it helps survival of the group and so wins out in evolution."

      No idea what you are getting at.

      "Try presenting an argument regarding the first few commandments. With evidence."

      The first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. As I pointed out earlier, God gave us all the Creation and a conscience to know God exists. But have you always made God the No. 1 thing in your life as the commandment says? He sure hasn't been in mine.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • Peter

      Topher, according to you it is not possible to not break the 10 commandments, and you must believe that Jesus died for your sins in order to get into heaven. If someone has never heard of Jesus then how do they get into heaven?

      April 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • sam stone

      hawaii: come on......we all know that murder and stealing were all hunky-dory with people until Jeebus came along and pointed out that it was wrong

      April 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • Topher

      Peter

      "If someone has never heard of Jesus then how do they get into heaven?"

      Even if you've "heard of" Jesus, that won't help you if you've broken His laws. You must repent and trust in the Savior.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      So, once again, you don't answer the question at all. Why is that? Not like you'll answer this question either. Still wondering why I'm on your ignore list.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Topher,

      Saraswati wrote: "Try presenting an argument regarding the first few commandments. With evidence."

      Saraswati wrote: "The first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. As I pointed out earlier, God gave us all the Creation and a conscience to know God exists. But have you always made God the No. 1 thing in your life as the commandment says? He sure hasn't been in mine."

      This isn't evidence; it's just a claim. Do you have any actual evidence outside the bible that we as humans have the first three commandments imprinted in our make-up, innate to our systems?

      April 4, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Topher,

      [corrected attribution of second quote]

      Saraswati wrote: "Try presenting an argument regarding the first few commandments. With evidence."

      Topher wrote: "The first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. As I pointed out earlier, God gave us all the Creation and a conscience to know God exists. But have you always made God the No. 1 thing in your life as the commandment says? He sure hasn't been in mine."

      This isn't evidence; it's just a claim. Do you have any actual evidence outside the bible that we as humans have the first three commandments imprinted in our make-up, innate to our systems?

      April 4, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      What evidence would that possibly be? Short of building technology to hook up a projector to your brain, how could I ever prove what you are thinking? I know you won't accept that God said it is true ...

      April 4, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Peter

      Thanks for not answering the question. I asked what if I have NOT heard of Jesus, and have broken god's laws? Which you believe everyone has broken the moment they are born. So please answer the question I asked instead of just repeating back to me what I already said. How can someone who has never heard of Jesus repent and trust in him?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Topher

      Peter

      "Thanks for not answering the question"

      I've answered this more than once. Do you think I'm going to change my answer?

      "I asked what if I have NOT heard of Jesus, and have broken god's laws?"

      You will go to Hell for breaking His laws. Because He is just, He must punish lawbreakers. I'm not being va.gue here.

      "Which you believe everyone has broken the moment they are born"

      Not so.

      "So please answer the question I asked instead of just repeating back to me what I already said. How can someone who has never heard of Jesus repent and trust in him?"

      They can't.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Akira

      Topher,
      "But for forgiveness of sins, you must have Christ."
      Here on Earth, you mean?
      Because someone who has never heard of Christ wouldn't have that available to them, correct? And God would judge that person based on the 10 Commandments, correct?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
    • Topher

      Akira

      "Here on Earth, you mean?"

      Yes. Once you're dead, it's too late.

      "Because someone who has never heard of Christ wouldn't have that available to them, correct?"

      Yep.

      "And God would judge that person based on the 10 Commandments, correct?"

      Yes, that is the standard. But you don't need to have heard of the 10 Commandments.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
    • Saraswati

      "What evidence would that possibly be? Short of building technology to hook up a projector to your brain, how could I ever prove what you are thinking? I know you won't accept that God said it is true ..."

      So you take the bible's word on what's going on in my head over my own word. Got it. I know you believe that but just for the sake of your own argument you might want to consider how incredible presumptive that sounds and that it is likely to turn off just about anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • Peter

      Somehow, Topher, believes that is impossible to not break the 10 commandments (if you don't believe me ask him if he has ever murdered anyone) and at the same time people who have never heard of Jesus will be judged by the 10 commandments. Which he has repeatedly pointed out everyone breaks. I can only assume this means that people who have never heard of Jesus are sent to hell according to Topher, or that he thinks people who have never heard of Jesus are judged by their works alone. So I will try a new line of questioning. Can people who have never heard of Jesus get into heaven?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • Madtown

      You will go to Hell for breaking His laws. Because He is just
      ------
      LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, of course. You'll be punished for not following laws you've never heard of. What could possibly be more "just" than that?! LOL. Man, who needs sitcoms or comedy clubs? This blog is so much more entertaining than either. Thanks again for the laughs today Topher. I bet you never thought you'd be so good at comedy?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • Akira

      I know you may be tiring of these questions, Topher, but let me see if I understand what your are saying:

      If I died, never having heard of Jesus Christ, I would be condemned to hell?
      Have I got this right?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      I can see how you'd take it that way. But God also says unbelievers will think it all foolishness. Which is true.

      And yes, I believe God's Word over anything man says. As Creator, He'd know better than us anyway.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Topher,

      "I can see how you'd take it that way. But God also says unbelievers will think it all foolishness. Which is true."

      If you believe that then why do you come here and argue? Either you think people's minds can be changed, in which case you should use skillful means (to use a Buddhist term) or you are just coming here for fun?

      April 4, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Topher

      This will likely be my last response as it is yet again time to go to work.

      Akira

      "If I died, never having heard of Jesus Christ, I would be condemned to hell? Have I got this right?"

      Yes and no. You will not go to Hell for having not heard of Jesus ... you will go there for breaking God's laws. Since we've all broken God's laws, we all deserve Hell. God provided a way for us to be forgiven, i.e. Christ took the punishment you deserve on the cross. And with repentence and faith in Christ, your sins will be forgiven because He already paid your fine. So no, you won't be sent to Hell for not hearing of Christ. However, without having heard of Christ and what he did and requires of you (repentence and faith) you cannot have your sins forgiven and thus you will get what you deserve — Hell. Hope that is a little clearer.

      Peter, see above.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      "If you believe that then why do you come here and argue? Either you think people's minds can be changed, in which case you should use skillful means (to use a Buddhist term) or you are just coming here for fun?"

      I absolutely think people can change their minds. I did. I didn't grow up a Christian. I wasn't saved until I was about 30 years old. I certainly don't come here for fun. There's nothing fun about being called just about every name in the book. But I come here because, 1. God commands us to spread the Gospel, and 2. Most people have no idea what the Gospel says and I'm just trying to share it with you. If you die in your sins you will perish. And I don't want that to happen to any of you ... especially when God has been so kind to take the punishment we all deserve. Please think about this, all of you. There's no more important question than that of where we'll spend eternity. Thank you for the conversation. Have a great day and God bless.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • Peter

      Why would god create people knowing that they would never learn of Jesus, and thus end up in hell? If that is the case then the Mormons are probably correct Christian faith, at least they believe that Jesus came to North America to let the natives in on the secret.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • Akira

      Have a nice day at work, Topher.

      I don't think that one who has no concept of God or Jesus as Savior, will be consigned to hell for that ignorance.
      I get the idea of God's laws, and that you think everyone breaks them, but to condemn someone who has no concept of them, like a 4 year old who fibbed to his mother then suddenly perishing, to hell when having no earthly concept of God OR Jesus isn't quite the justice it seems.
      I would argue that God would be merciful. I should hope so, anyway, because there are large parts of the world that haven't heard of the Bible, God, and Jesus who are living decent lives and are unaware that they will be going to hell for something they have no knowledge of, and God, knowing this, allows it.

      Just my opinion.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • Peter

      Topher, I hope you have a nice evening as well. Hail Satan.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • Madtown

      You will not go to Hell for having not heard of Jesus .......... And with repentence and faith in Christ
      ------–
      Do you even read what you write before posting?!? You were asked about people who HAVE NOT HEARD OF JESUS. You say they won't go to hell for not having heard of him, but still need to "repent and have faith" in him. How is this possible? Again...................how does someone who's never heard of Jesus, have faith in Jesus?

      April 4, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Mad, you won't get an answer. You'll get a circular deflection, and then Topher will act surprised and hurt when he is called on it.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Peter

      I wouldn't ever expect an answer from Topher. As you can probably tell, he can't answer any question straight, and anything he can twist (any question extremely short and pointed) he will ignore. He is a pathetic coward who comes here to spew non-answers so he can reinforce his own beliefs. He doesn't care about honest discussion or truth.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Peter

      He eventually did answer the question. He said that yes, people who have never heard of Jesus will not get into heaven because they broke the 10 commandments, which mind you are impossible to keep. Basically Topher thinks that an all loving god would create humans knowing that they would never hear of Jesus so that god could then torture them forever because god is a gian a$$ hole who never sent anyone to them to tell them about Jesus even though he easily could have.

      April 4, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Even if you've "heard of" Jesus, that won't help you if you've broken His laws. You must repent and trust in the Savior."

      Wow, Topher, you've really gone off the deep end.

      Just more proof that you are a snivelling sycophant and your god is vindictive pr1ck

      April 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
  14. Agnes of Dog

    One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one (over 4,000,000 members) in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage.

    One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags".

    One sect believes women to be subservient, while another sect in the same denomination promotes equality between the sexes.

    One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri.

    Some believe the Pope is the Anti-Christ. Some believe Obama is the Anti-Christ.

    Some believe that celibacy is appropriate for certain people, or for certain people or positions. As we read about each day, this unnatural practice continues to cause problems for the religious institutions that advise/employ it. Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but pretend not to understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease.

    Conflicted right from the very beginning, Christianity continues to splinter and create more extreme divisions as time goes by, constantly subjecting others in its crossfire.

    Rainer Braendlein's opinion below proves my point about the ~40,000 denominations of insanity.

    April 4, 2013 at 10:14 am |
    • HeavenSent

      2 Thessalonians 2

      April 4, 2013 at 10:32 am |
    • Agnes of Dog

      I don't pretend to be a bullshit translator, HS, so to make sure your "like-minded" readers don't get off course, why don't you give your interpretation of your referenced "Scripture"?

      April 4, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Agnes of Dog, I'm sure you know how to read. You can check the new versions of the Bible with the King James version. I'm sure the newer versions will fluff up His truth where the King James version stays with His truth.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:20 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @HeavenSent
      Unless you can read ancient Hebrew and/or Greek, how are you to know if the translations are accurate?
      Even your most revered King James Bible has translation differences.

      So which copy is the true, unadulterated, innerrant Word of God ™
      American Standard Version, American King James Version, Amplified Bible, An American Translation, ArtScroll Tanakh (Old Testament), An American Translation, Berkeley Version, Bible in English, The Bible in Living English, Bishops' Bible, Catholic Public Domain Version, Children's King James Version, Christian Community Bible, English version, Clear Word Bible, Complete Jewish Bible, Contemporary English Version, Concordant Literal Version, A Conservative Version, Coverdale Bible, Darby Bible, Douay-Rheims Bible, Douay-Rheims Bible (Challoner Revision), EasyEnglish Bible, Easy-to-Read Version, English Jubilee 2000 Bible, English Standard Version, Ferrar Fenton Bible, Geneva Bible, God's Word, Good News Bible, Great Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, The Inclusive Bible, International Standard Version, Jerusalem Bible, Jewish Publication Society of America Version Tanakh (Old Testament), Judaica Press Tanakh (Old Testament), ia E. Smith Parker Translation, King James 2000 Version, King James Easy Reading Version, King James Version, King James II Version, Knox's Translation of the Vulgate, Lamsa Bible, A Literal Translation of the Bible, Leeser Bible, Tanakh (Old Testament), The Living Bible, The Living Torah and The Living Nach. Tanakh (Old Testament), Matthew's Bible, The Message, Modern King James Version, Modern Language Bible, Moffatt, New Translation, James Murdock's Translation of the Syriac Peshi.tta, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, New English Bible, New English Translation (NET Bible), New International Reader's Version, New International Version Inclusive Language Edition, New International Version, New Jerusalem Bible, New Jewish Publication Society of America Version. Tanakh (Old Testament), New King James Version, New Life Version, New Living Translation, New Revised Standard Version, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Quaker Bible, Recovery Version of the Bible, Revised Version, Revised Standard Version, Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition, Revised English Bible, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, The Scriptures, Simplified English Bible, The Story Bible, Taverner's Bible, Thomson's Translation, Today's New International Version, Third Millennium Bible, Tyndale Bible, Updated King James Version, A Voice In The Wilderness Holy Scriptures, Webster's Revision
      Westminster Bible, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible, Wycliffe's Bible (1380), Wycliffe's Bible (1388), Young's Literal Translation?

      April 4, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • HeavenScvunt

      HeavenSent
      That a girl stay carnal. I would guess fluffing up jesus is one of your special fantasies.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The King James version allows the reader to check it's accuracy back to the scrolls.

      Phony heavensent is an antisocial personality who can not stop conducting unrighteous acts..

      April 4, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • A Conversation

      Doc...your argument doesn't make sense. It does not matter that there are so many different translations–it is not impossible for them to be all correct. Here's my example: John 3:16. KJV says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." NIV says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish be have eternal life." Different words, but the two translations say the exact same thing (unless you think there is difference between "everlasting" (KJV) and "eternal" NIV). So my question to you is, what's your point?

      April 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • tallulah13

      @A Conversation

      Quoting a fairly straightforward, simply phrased verse proves nothing. It just shows that straightforward, simply phrased verses are easy to translate. But christians are judging from all sorts of things written in the bible. If you wish to be taken seriously, then yes, you must prove the accuracy of your source. Of course the problem with that is that every christian sect has their own interpretation of their source.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • A Conversation

      @tallulah13...o.k. Give me an example of one translation that purports to be the true word of God (because there are a number that, in the preface, indicate that that particular translation is not designed to be "the Bible" but rather provide a different "take" on the verses for various reasons–i.e. the Good News Bible is a self-admitted paraphrase) and compare it to another to show that it is a fundamentally different message. I guess I won't be surprised if you can find such an example, I'm just not aware of any.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • A Conversation

      Sorry...quick correction. I meant The Living Bible, not the Good News Bible–my bad.

      April 4, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @A Conversation
      I posted this yesterday in another thread...

      In the original Greek, the terms used that are sometimes translated as "hom.ose.xual" in the New Testament are 'malakoi' and 'ar.senkoitai'.

      'Ar.senokoitai' referred to male prosti.tutes for Paul and Christians until the 4th century.
      It has variously been translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind" (KJV), "se.xual per.verts" (RSV), "sodo.mites" (NKJV, NAB, JB, NRSV), those "who are guilty of hom.ose.xual per.version" (NEB), "men who lie with males" (Lamsa), "behaves like a hom.ose.xual" (CEV), "men who have se.xual relations with other men" (NCV), and "ho.mose.xual offenders" (NIV). The New American Bible (Roman Catholic) translated ar.senokoitai as "practicing hom.ose.xuals". After much protest, the editors agreed to delete this term and replace it with "sodo.mites" in subsequent editions.

      Malakoi meant "masturbators" until the Reformation in the 16th century and in Roman Catholicism until the 20th century.
      Literally, it means "soft" or "males who are soft", but has been translated as "effeminate" (KJV), "hom.ose.xuals" (NKJV), "corrupt" (Lamsa), "perverts" (CEV), "catamites" which means call boys (JB), "those who are male prosti.tutes" (NCV), and "male prost.itutes." (NIV, NRSV).

      So one's belief of whether or not God condemns all gay people can depend on which translation of your "authentic" manuscript is being read.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • A Conversation

      Doc...I'm trying to respond but apparently one of the words I'm using is kicking out my response...I'll try to see if I can find the "bad word" and adjust as necessary...if not, I'll start from scratch and get back to you as soon as I can.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      A Conversation, you posted "Doc...your argument doesn't make sense. It does not matter that there are so many different translations–it is not impossible for them to be all correct. Here's my example: John 3:16. KJV says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." NIV says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish be have eternal life." Different words, but the two translations say the exact same thing (unless you think there is difference between "everlasting" (KJV) and "eternal" NIV). So my question to you is, what's your point?"

      Answer: Your example did not show the numerous changes to scriptures the NIV is guilty of. Those changes that are throughout the NIV doesn't allow the reader accuracy of Jesus' teachings.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Puppies and Kittens Taste Delicious When Cooked Properly

      Speaking of "fluff" in regard to the King James version of the giant collection of fiction. Were you aware, sir "HeavenSent" that your beloved King James altered the collection? Specifically, the book of James was not originally the book of James. Ask yourself, how long has it been since other books were removed from the texts you hold dear today? Perhaps a hundred years ago.

      April 4, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • A Conversation

      HS–examples? More to the point...is there anything in NIV (or omitted) that is going to prevent me from having the fullest relationship with Christ?

      April 4, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      A Conversation, just the lies that replaced for Jesus' truth.

      April 4, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • Howard

      HS can't give you any examples of where the KJV is "more" accurate than any other bible. HS is completely out of her mind and believes the KJV must be the best and closest because that is the bible she grew up with and was told this is the best and it also sounded more official with the "Thee's" and "thou"s. She is a proven liar and deceiver and knows this but wants to try and put a wedge between all believers and her faith that she see's as infallible. But much like her misused and mistranslated work of fiction, her comments are not "Invaluable" but rather "Un-valuable".

      April 4, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Howard, there are many Christian scholars that have pointed out the changes in all the other versions of the Bible over the years. All the reputable scholars are in agreement that we should stay with the KJV to learn Jesus' love letter to us all.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Obey, or be tortured forever. Such a loving message.

      April 4, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • A Conversation

      Unfortunately, HS, you have little to no credibility. I'm willing to discuss specifics with you, but you apparently are not. If you're not going to give me specific examples, then there is no point in further discussions. I don't doubt that you have accepted Christ as your savior, and accordingly, I'm trying to be respectful here, but that doesn't mean I have to give you a p.ass.

      April 4, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      http://www.biblestudysite.com/answers60.htm#7

      April 4, 2013 at 6:15 pm |
    • A Conversation

      HS...citing to another web site is useless if i don't have the ability to determine if it is reliable or not. You merely substi.tuted your own conclusions for those of some one else–a page out of Reality's book I'm afraid. Still, I went to the page and saw nothing there that would have changed my relationship with Christ–the NIV is still a reliable translation IMHO.

      April 4, 2013 at 6:53 pm |
    • A Conversation

      Doc...sorry for the late response...I allowed myself to get into a debate with HS and that was just WRONG! Anyway...

      I'll start with your conclusion: "So one's belief of whether or not God condemns all gay people can depend on which translation of your "authentic" manuscript is being read." I don't know that I agree with your conclusion, but for purposes of this discussion, I won't argue the point. What I will say is that the distinctions within the various translations are fairly minor (but I suppose not so minor as to cause confusion). I think when this happens (and I'm sure there are other instances), I think a discerning believer, faced with a thesaurus of choices, should reject the translations and go to the root source themselves. I'm not a believer in a Bible, so much as I'm a believer in God's word. If I don't think the particular translation is right, or there are options, then I'll go to the root source (whether it is Greek or Hebrew) and try to make it out for myself. We can agree to identify the inherent problems with multiple translations–those will be a given–but I won't argue with you about the original validity of God's word, because we will only argue it–perhaps we have to agree to disagree.

      I don't know if this satisfies your question, and I'm willing to consider any specific questions you have.

      April 4, 2013 at 7:22 pm |
    • ..

      HS: if the KJV is, in your opinion, the truest interpretation of the Bible, then unicorns existed at one point, right? Because the KJV is the only one that mentions them.

      April 5, 2013 at 10:06 am |
    • A Conversation

      @ ..
      Your post is a fair criticism of the KJV, but I hope your not implying that "the Bible" says unicorns existed. The Hebrew word translated by the KJV is "re'em," and frankly, we don't, today, know for sure what animal that is, although contemporaries to the verses that use "re'em" certainly would have. Modern translations translate it as "wild ox". Ultimately, its an interesting but irrelevant point.

      April 5, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • HeavenSent

      A Conversation, it means wild oxen.

      April 5, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      A Conversation, FYI, most of my posts are purposely blocked.

      April 5, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • A Conversation

      HS...so says you! If you are so sure about that, then why do you insist on KJV? It is possible to, with no harm to the faith or faithful, to concede that we don't know for certain what a particular word in the original text means, such as "re'em". Why fight the point? Why enter into silly battles (particularly with other believes) and, what have I done, I'm now debating with you again, somebody just shoot me!!!!!!

      April 5, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • ..

      A Convo: no, not at all. I was just questioning HS's assertion that the KJV was the closest to the original Greek. The KJV was updated, even; yet the unicorn reference is still in there.
      I don't believe that unicorns existed at all; my point is that the KJV's interpretation is somewhat in error. That's all.
      The message remains the same, no matter what version is used; I believe this is the point being made to HeavenSent.

      April 5, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • A Conversation

      @..

      Thanks for the clarification.

      April 5, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
  15. William Demuth

    I always respected this guys intentions, but from a practical perspective, he and his buddies have made a wreck out of South Africa.

    From what I understand, the place is a huge armed camp that is slowly degrading into barbarisim.

    Ian Smith (Anyone remember Rhodesia?) had predicted this reality several decades ago.

    I truly hope they can find a way up, but I suspect it's neigbors will drag them down into the status quo hell that is Africa.

    Within a few years the last of the white wealth will have fled, and another dictator shall rise up in Africa.

    April 4, 2013 at 10:06 am |
  16. Chris Schene

    One of the most memorable days of my life was when I men Bishop Desmond Tutu in Westminster Abbey in London.

    I went to a church service at Westminster Abbey in 2004 and the priest giving the sermon was none other than Desmond Tutu. When we were leaving the service he greeted us and shoot our hands.

    April 4, 2013 at 10:03 am |
    • Akira

      He shot your hands? Memorable, indeed.
      I see you get much from church, as you just refered to gays as "fudge packers".
      You have a ways to go on your path.

      April 4, 2013 at 11:10 am |
  17. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    I recommend Desmond Tutu's God is Not a Christian: And Other Provocations.

    April 4, 2013 at 8:48 am |
  18. Patricia Rife

    As a former Templeton Scholar via one of the many programs initiated through the innovative Templeton Foundation, I must humbly say that Sir John Templeton's memory 'lives on' via his legacy to fund spiritually-based dialogue between scientists and humanities scholars, physicians and prayer-focused studies, and we are grateful to the many visionaries who carry on this legacy of building bridges for peace.

    April 4, 2013 at 5:54 am |
  19. shanelathams

    Your site has been extremely informative and its featured content helps in the process of what is being created on the web. Keep it up.Shane Latham

    April 4, 2013 at 5:47 am |
  20. timtseng63

    Reblogged this on Tim Tseng and commented:
    "A very deserving life-time achievement award!" – Tim Tseng

    April 4, 2013 at 1:23 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.