April 24th, 2013
09:32 AM ET

Opinion: The appeal of Islamic radicalism

Editor's note: Ken Ballen, a former federal prosecutor, is president and founder of Terror Free Tomorrow, a nonprofit organization that investigates the causes of extremism. He is the author of "Terrorists in Love: True Life Stories of Islamic Radicals."

By Ken Ballen, Special to CNN

(CNN) - There are many unanswered questions about the motivations of the alleged Boston Marathon bombers, Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. But it is becoming increasingly clear that they were inspired by faith in a radical Islamist ideology. Dzhokhar has told investigators that, among other things, he and his brother wanted to defend Islam, while Tamerlan's social media accounts are replete with clips by extremist clerics.

As the investigation continues to unravel the seeming paradox of how two apparently normal young men could commit acts of violence, classmates, neighbors and relatives of those who knew them have expressed surprise and disbelief.

I have interviewed over the past seven years more than a hundred radical extremists, including numerous al Qaeda and Taliban members, and it appears the Tsarnaev brothers fit the profile of many young men who turn to radicalism.

Young men—and they are almost always between the ages of 16 and 30—who convert to the radical Islamist cause come from a variety of socioeconomic and family circumstances. Before their conversion (and even often after), to all outward appearances they resemble their peers and seem like any other young men. What changes them?

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Islam • Terrorism

soundoff (340 Responses)
  1. The appeal -The hero

    A Hero
    The Hero by Michael Hughes

    What is a hero?, some people might say,
    One who saves lives or takes away pain,
    One who gives of himself, places others above,
    His own earthly needs and does it for love,
    What is a hero?, other people might say,
    One who extends his hand, one that saves the day,
    One who's heart goes out to reach those in need,
    No matter what the cost to perform this selfless deed,
    But what is a hero?, to this I will say,
    It is my Lord and Savior, to whom I pray,
    Jesus is my hero, for he has saved my soul,
    With his death on calvary, this was his heavenly goal,
    So with this thought I can say, your a hero to me,
    For in you, my Savior Jesus, this do I see,
    His love and his grace pour from you for mankind,
    And this is what our Lord's word said would be a sign,
    Of the ones who love him.

    April 24, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      jesus is not a hero. when armaggedon comes, jesus is destined to murder 2/3 of the people on the planet when he opens his daddy's seven seals: death, famine, plague, war, etc. some of the people jesus kills are children, which means jesus is a baby-killer. not sure how you can worship such a monster.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Dr. Greg Graffin

      The scientist purported that there aint no purpose
      And the theologian told me that it's all been designed
      And Im trying to maintain objectivity
      The world wont illuminate what really matters
      And Im an imperfect moral meaning extractor
      Processing the complexity
      Born of the earth
      We werent given a choice
      What about free will?
      Do we have a voice?
      See them run in place
      In the human rat race
      So much dead weight to our disgrace
      Life begins when you accept your fate
      Paralysis from forces raging out of control until
      My confidence and will are at an all-time low
      Just directionless wandering
      Eternal life, eternal truth, eternal secrets
      Isolated hopes and hypotheses just
      Leave me feeling so hungry
      Born of the earth (are we blind? )
      We werent given a choice (there's no way)
      What about free will? (what we have)
      Do we have a voice? (is shattered faith)
      See them run in place (here and now)
      In the human rat race (no reward)
      So much dead weight (no debate) to our disgrace (accept your fate)
      Life begins when you accept your fate
      Right or wrong,
      The main criterion is what you do and not what you say
      The roads you take, the friends you make and those you throw away
      The method is a simple synthesis of the past and present state
      You never lose if the path you choose is one you can easily navigate
      I had a dream, light and carefree
      But now there's doubt and gravity
      But I wont run in place (are we blind? ) in the human rat race (there's no way)
      I can set the pace (what we have) and accept my fate (is shattered faith)
      Shattered faith (here and now)
      Shattered faith (no reward)
      The part of me (no debate) I can't erase (accept your fate)

      April 24, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Romans 12

      People looking to be radically transformed can find that transformation only in the person of Jesus Christ.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • Johnson

      Jesus is the person you look to when your faith is shattered.
      If you know not Jesus ,you know not life.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Jesus

      Judge not lest ye be judged, except for me, I get to judge, and if you didn't like me enough or didn't believe in me then you are in for it, i'm gonna slow roast you, not for any real reason like redemption, once your there you have no chance of going to heaven or me changing my mind, but because I like to watch...

      Hopefully we will have a large crop of sinners, I heard Belezebub was starting a scream choir... nothing I like more than to hear harmonious screams of ultimate suffering, brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it, of joy of course...

      April 24, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • Science

      And laws of association makes it part of the devil cults too ...........does it not ?

      April 25, 2013 at 6:12 am |
  2. Brief bit of zeal

    The truth is, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he made everything... the universe, God made it. God also sent his son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, to die for the sins of others. Thank you God, thank you Jesus, and thank you Holy Spirit.

    Back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

    April 24, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • John

      Amen, zeal.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • 21st Century

      Reality is on the phone and would like to have a word with you.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      that's hilarious. the bible is a work of fiction. there's more wisdom in Dr. Seuss books than the bible, qu'ran and torah combined. there is no such thing as god. you don't need a made-up sky fairy to be a good person.

      try thinking for yourself - you won't regret it.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
    • Sorry,no.

      Faith is the devious art of defending fantasy, support science not supersti-tion. Carry on.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. were polythiest

      your god did not make the universe, proof is in the prostate. it feels good up the ass. and if your god made the world and was against Homosexuality. you think he would make it feel bad, like killing stealing or raping some one feels bad.

      the fact is the world is older then what your god says it is, he lied

      at the time of Adam, my ancestor Aoife was 12 and her mother "The Mórrígan" Nemain who was about 2,000 years old at the time

      April 24, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
    • sam stone

      "back to" the regularly scheduled nonsense? your post IS the regularly scheduled nonsense

      April 24, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Your delusions are the regularly scheduled nonsense! Unless of course you have a single shred of independent, verifiable, objective or factual evidence for any god or the dead jew zombie death cult aka the divine jesus myth aka christianity.

      April 24, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
  3. Reality

    "What changes them?"

    They failed to see the idiocy of their religion but the following will help any Muslim contemplating a life of inflicting terror and horror on anyone in the name of Allah:

    Only for the eyes of said Muslims:

    From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi----–

    The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

    ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

    Are you ready?

    Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

    The First Five of the 77 Branches:

    "1. Belief in Allah"

    aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.

    "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

    Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

    "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

    A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

    "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

    Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

    Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

    Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

    "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
    be upon him) alone."

    Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

    Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

    Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

    Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

    April 24, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Romans 1:1-32


      April 24, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
  4. Stephen Hawking is an Idiot


    April 24, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • Answer

      Grab a great tune like "Ben E. King – Stand by me."

      It's better for you than your crap christian sh!t.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
  5. Trance


    April 24, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
  6. ME II

    Very interesting article.

    If the United States put in effort to expose the fact that the cleric had been arrested for soliciting prost[]itutes - a violation of Islamic precepts - his standing among young men looking for an example of Islam could be diminished.

    Although, it seems extremely unlikely that anything put out be the US would be taken at face value, let alone convince radicals to re-evaluate their allegiances.

    April 24, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • Answer

      They could wash away the bad news like the 'good ole' christians do by denying it...

      –> "They're not real [ muslims ] anyways."

      April 24, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Then why dosen't the CIA produce some gay S/M flicks with this guy wearing fishnets and getting pluged by the Kinneset?

      Be cheaper than the damn missles, thats why!

      This is about selling weapons.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • ME II

      @William Demuth,
      "This is about selling weapons."

      Okay, glad that's settled. /sarcasm

      April 24, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
    • Alias

      @billy Demuth
      Oh, now you know all about what goes on inside the CIA?
      You are one ignorant cvnt. Unamerican loud mouths like you really do disgust me.
      And here is the funny part – YOU are the type of person this article is talking aboiut! You have been taken in by propaganda! You need to find professional help and get back in touch with reality.

      April 24, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
  7. William Demuth

    Does Christ see a distinction between a child blown up in Boston as compared to Kandahar?

    April 24, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • Alias

      Coming from someone who thinks marines are terrorists, that is about all we can expect from you.

      April 24, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
  8. Ungodly Discipline

    Jesus loves me. Just me.

    April 24, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • William Demuth

      In the biblical sense?

      Does the body of Christ compell you?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
  9. HeavenSent's Camel-Toe Diaries

    My camel-toe ordered pizza and the police quit looking after three days.

    April 24, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Camel Toad

      Rubbit! Rubbit!

      April 24, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
  10. Answer

    The cause is always a lack of confidence. These pathetic converters will do anything to appease to the crowd that they end up in. Believing in a god to give you a sense of purpose .. what a pathetic bunch of losers.

    April 24, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • fred

      Believing in a void to run from your sin somehow seems more logical to you?

      April 24, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Rupert

      Shut the fuck up Fred!

      April 24, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • fred

      Your belief in a void that does not judge brings comfort I see. Jesus said "neither do I condemn you" now go and sin no more.
      One bright spot is you are very aware of you sin. At least you are not in denial.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      Fred because some do not believe in your god which was created around 1500 b.c, doesnt mean they believe nothing is out there. Your misconceptions fog your rational

      April 24, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • fred

      Moses wrote about God about 1400BC and is one with Christ recorded by the apostles beginning about 50AD. There is only the possibility of one God with the attributes attributed to God.
      All other gods have clues that they were man made which is very different from the Bibles revelation of God.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      Moses wrote about God

      Since we are talking about man made. As I said...your god was created around 1500 b.c. Your faith is in a mythical man named moses who claimed he could speak on behalf of a god. God made the 10 commandments.... lets look at those tablets....oh wait we cant...they dont exist. This is a common pattern in made up gods. Lets have a look at what Jesus wrote....oh wait..he never wrote anything....gods never write anything down it seems. Keep dreaming fred.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred, That's quite a leap. Your god is mentioned in its holy book and is therefore the only god! All the other religions could say that. Why are Mormonism and Scientology for example less credible? Only because there is more evidence that they are made-up religions. Just because your religion has older roots it isn't any more credible especially when compared to other older religions such as Hinduism and Juadaism.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      At the end of the day there is no direct evidence. All you have is the skin on your bones, perception and faith in men of the past.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • Rupert

      In case you missed it the first time, shut the fuck up fred!

      April 24, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • fred

      Do you have a better solution to the question why we exist?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Answer

      There goes the retarded fvcktard fred...

      It's the same constant spiel from the deluded. Their preachers spew out the drivel that "these atheists are living in a void". "They don't have good lives.." . Same bullsh!t each and every time. They have to convince themselves that this is what we, atheists, actually are. Just a small buffer of self delusion to make themselves feel better about their sky daddy.


      April 24, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • paul

      Actually fred, god as described in the bible is a logical possibility. There could be a god, but it is certainly not the god of the bible.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      Your belief in a void that does not judge brings comfort I see. Jesus said "neither do I condemn you" now go and sin no more.

      Did Jesus write this or somebody else??????????????????????????????
      Fred please go back to the dates November 5th to 10th in your Junior year of highschool and write down the conversation or instruction from a teacher in math class or english class. How credible do you think it will be?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • sam stone

      fred: do you expect that people believed in void would believe in "sin"?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • Answer

      Here is the not so profound response that, fred, will issue on his own question of:

      "Do you have a better solution to the question why we exist?" <<– "Because god gave me my reason."

      -When in all the world, the only reply you need is: "I make my own existence because I can."

      April 24, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • paul

      Logical Impossibility, not possibility.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      Do you have a better solution to the question why we exist?

      Why does there have to be a "better solution" to why we exist? Does the writings of men who claim to speak on the authority of the gods scare you?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      Fred, we are only here once, the last thing that concerns me is what happened to our Earth or Universe millions of years ago. Dead men's writings do not dictate my life. I show as much interest in the gods as they have shown me. To date, I have yet to come across a god worthy of worship. In fact, the god made up by moses ranks as one of the lowest and worthless on the long list. The story of Jesus lacks so much credibility that it is more of a joke.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • Answer

      @Ted Jones

      These religious idiots have to make themselves think it "will be better." That is why they are constantly begging and pleading for others to think. Look at their posts carefully.

      "Humankind can't be trusted like I can trust god." "I can rely on my god far better than myself." "My god loves me far more than my own parents." <<< - Just take a look into the window of their hearts. They've been crushed to accept that a better world awaits them. This world doesn't have the benefits – they see more beauty in death, than in, this "materialistic world."

      What they want is a better materialistic world of the afterlife – where they can be satisfied that their every whim is served out. You'll notice that they aren't fulfilled – because of their lack of confidence in getting it.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • fred

      In Santa We trust
      You are correct in that we can easily trace where religions such as Islam and the Mormons took their strength and that does not discredit God. The same goes for other religions that were offshoots from the Word of God passed down since Adam and Eve. None of this is proof that it was made up to suit the culture of the time however the pattern is clear that man does create gods to suit or explain his needs.
      Can we conclude that man is aware of purpose greater than self and seeks to fill that void?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • fred

      The God of Abraham aka Christ as revealed in the Bible seems to rule out all other possibilities. Why do you think God is other than as revealed?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
    • Answer

      "Accept that you are s-c-u-m and then come to my jeebus to make you better."

      April 24, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
    • sam

      fred, sin is a man made concept set in place to gain power over others. It's nonsense. There's no void, there's no afterlife; stop acting like a 4 year old and parrotting the same old garbage.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Is it a good defense of your faith when you run like a coward when you are shown to be a dishonest moron?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • paul

      I say that a god with the attributes that the bible bestows upon him could not logical exist. If god was all loving and all knowing then bad things wouldn't happen. Therefore, since god is described as all knowing and all loving in the bible, and bad things do happen the god of the bible can't exist. As I said there could be a god, but it is not god as described in the bible.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      And Fred....again................at the end of the day there is no direct evidence. All you have is the skin on your bones, perception and faith in men of the past. Void??? The void of space....the void in your dark scary closet? If you choose to live in fear based on a god made up around 1500 that is your choice. Please refer to first sentence....get back to me if you have anything else to offer.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Answer


      The religious freaks are all the same.. they have to parrot it.

      I bet they think if they touch their own crotch during the day, that it will be a sin, but it's okay to take a shower and run the soap down to their genitals. And the ever effective dogma of "you're thinking of it (s-e-x) is a sin". LOL

      April 24, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • ME II

      "Why do you think God is other than as revealed?"

      Not sure about any "other" God.
      While I've seen many fake religions and/or fake religious people, I have yet to see (figuratively) anything that might be considered supernatural.
      Claims of subjective experiences and/or revelations are not very convincing beyond the subject that experienced them.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
    • fred

      Ted Jones
      I take it on faith that God preserved and inspired what was written by Saul of Tarsus 20years after he saw the risen Christ as I do with what Moses wrote.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      ME II, only God can make a tree. You probably believe your scientist did that.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
    • fred

      " If god was all loving and all knowing then bad things wouldn't happen."
      =>You are correct bad things cannot happen in the presence of God as it an impossibility. What you are describing is the things of this world and your observation of good and evil. This knowledge of good and evil was addressed in Genesis and it was not for man and man was separated from it as long as he remained in the presence of God. Man rejected the way of God and all that you see is existence as it is when total dependence on God is rejected.
      =>In the presence of Gods perfect goodness there is no evil and that is the point of Gods plan. God is bringing us back into His presence where there is no evil (bad).
      =>So, bad things happened to all the chosen ones, apostles and the strongest of believers today. When the soul is reconciled with God which will happen evil is separated eternally and all that remains is goodness in unity with God. This is why Jesus said you will be one with the father as I am one with the father.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      What a convoluted and illogical pile of crap to justify your belief that god wants us to be obedient little robots without knowledge. Thanks for showing clearly how your concept god is not loving and is a complete asshole.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • paul

      @fred, exactly. god is not all loving. Thanks for clearing that up.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • ME II

      "only God can make a tree."

      so you claim. Why should I believe you?

      April 24, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • ME II

      "You are correct bad things cannot happen in the presence of God as it an impossibility."

      But isn't God supposedly omnipresent, everywhere?

      April 24, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      "only God can make a tree."


      April 24, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
    • Answer

      @ME II

      God is apparently everywhere, but not in your bathroom. LOL

      April 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

      Deuteronomy 8:20


      April 24, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
    • Answer

      "Don't be stupid."

      –Life's most sacred statement.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
    • fred

      ME II
      “ I have yet to see (figuratively) anything that might be considered supernatural.”
      =>The sudden indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a game changer. Up until that moment religion and the Bible was bunk as far as I was concerned. In an instant I was convicted of sin and my need for Christ. The talking serpent, the flood the resurrection of Christ and all I thought foolish had a total different meaning.

      =>aside from that all I consider supernatural today and see as supernatural can be explained away by a non believer. Given that God works in and through the natural that would be the outward appearance. God has repeatedly demonstrated that He is not of known substance and matter. Is it a wonder that God is not subject to measurement or validation by scientific method which is self limiting to that which was created?

      “Claims of subjective experiences and/or revelations are not very convincing beyond the subject that experienced them.”
      =>That was my experience. Perhaps Jesus will not contradict himself when said do not throw pearls to swine. Jesus would not demonstrate supernatural power when the Sanhedrin demanded it and referred to the story of Jonah in the fish. This ties with Jesus speaking in parables and the Old Testament reflecting only a shadow of Christ. Just as Abraham through all the major players God was found after they repented and stepped out in faith.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • fred

      ME II
      “But isn't God supposedly omnipresent, everywhere?”
      =>The natural world all around includes good and evil. While in this present physical form you could not differentiate me from an atheist and I am subject to all that this world can do to a person. God is not a respecter of persons as God simply is. The promise is that “I will work all things for the Good for those who are in Christ” “I will wipe away every tear and create a new heaven and earth where there is no pain and suffering” “evil will be forever separated from everlasting joy”. Regardless of what comes down that is our hope our Promised Land. Those in Christ will experience total unity with God.

      Never forget God is a burning holiness. Even the seraphim cover their eyes in His presence, Isaiah’s lips were touched by the burning and Moses came down from the mountain with a radiance that required a veil to cover.
      Adam and Eve did not even know they were naked or know shame or pain of any kind while “in the presence of God”. God was omnipresent but when they moved outside Gods will for lives they were subject to that which exists outside of Gods perfect will for man.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • ME II

      "Given that God works in and through the natural that would be the outward appearance."

      So basically, it's non-falsifiable. There is nothing that distinguishes between God's work and natural process, right? So why add God into the equation at all?
      I would suggest that you just see God in things because you want to see God in things.


      So if, "bad things cannot happen in the presence of God" and God is everywhere, then there should be no bad things happening anywhere. Seems pretty straightforward.

      Perhaps, you meant that "bad things cannot happen in the presence of God [unless God wants them to.]"

      April 24, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • For Nick Kading Christians

      Just accept it, God performs his miracles through nature, except when he doesn't and wants to use magic because he can do anything and he doesn't conform to the law, the law conforms to him, like that tight pair of pants that conform to his lower body... they let us know that it is a him...

      April 24, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • fred

      ME II
      "I would suggest that you just see God in things because you want to see God in things."
      =>significantly deeper than just wanting to see God in things it is a way of seeing things. It is a life perspective based upon God being with me and blessing others through me.
      =>I really want to do worldly things on occasion yet I see the event through Gods eyes and it becomes very clear.
      =>The reality is that God is real and transformed me. I cannot say if God changes the natural as we go though it or if it has already been played out and we just happen to make certain choices out of free will where we step into the present moment.

      "Perhaps, you meant that "bad things cannot happen in the presence of God [unless God wants them to.]""
      =>good and bad things happen in the presence of God because God is. The world is spiritual, it originated in spirit and by the spirit. With this understanding God is near and far in the same instant. God has infinitude and cannot be any closer or further than that at the same time. When you choose to push God away and deny the spiritual that is present you have not moved away from God. In Gods omniscience everything works to the good of those who believe.
      Child birth is painful but the joy is at hand.

      April 24, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      Ted Jones
      I take it on faith that God preserved and inspired what was written by Saul of Tarsus 20years after he saw the risen Christ as I do with what Moses wrote.

      As I mentioned before your faith starts in the word of man. Your faith starts at man

      April 24, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Seems like fred is ignoring me again. Is it because I called him out yesterday on once again being a dishonest ass? Or is it because I won't let him get away with the same refuted arguments and moronic fallacies.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:01 pm |
    • fred

      Ted Jones
      The worship of God / faith began long before the written word. Neanderthal even buried important provisions with their dead. You could claim that they did not worship but all indications are that modern man knew as does 98% of the world today that there is something more than chemical stimuli on organic matter to existence.

      I would have remained skeptical about the Word of God if the truths did not unfold. I called out to God and was given a Bible. Just as with Saul of Tarsus I had a conversion experience. We know these conversions happen all the time in similar fashion.
      Prayers were and continue to be answered but, you will point out there is no proof the answers are anything more than coincidence.
      Genesis we see God blesses Abraham with two sons Ishmael and Isaac. Promise is they will both be great nations with many children. Ishmael (muslims) would kick against Isaac (Jews physical line and Christians spiritual line grafted in) the chosen line of Christ.
      In the end times Christ and the faithful will be mocked and persecuted.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      fred, "we don't know" is always a better answer than "some god did it." Of course, you have to have a clear mind, free of belief in silly childish myths or parental indoctrination to understand this.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • fred

      Pascal's Wager would see a default to heaven as more logical than a default to hell.
      Jesus said some amazing stuff even to non believers. I would think his thoughts hold more weight than ours.
      Observable evidence abounds that the Bible is the living word of God that cuts to the soul of a man.
      Science has proven that if there is a God that God is not made of matter and energy that is known.
      Fine tuning makes accidental life mathematically impossible
      Science will not claim that evolution is unguided and has no evidence to support chance as a possibility.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      "Jesus said some amazing stuff even to non believers. I would think his thoughts hold more weight than ours."
      Yes, believe or burn forever. Such an amazing and original statement.

      "Observable evidence abounds that the Bible is the living word of God that cuts to the soul of a man."
      You've claimed that many times, but have never actually presented that "evidence".

      "Science has proven that if there is a God that God is not made of matter and energy that is known."
      Science does not deal with the question of god/gods, so that's just another flat out lie.

      "Fine tuning makes accidental life mathematically impossible"
      Fine tuning is a Begging the Question Fallacy. You frame everything so that you can define your god into existence, and use bad math and faulty statistics to support what you've decided you want to be true. It's pathetic.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • fred

      All I need is the fact our existence by random chance or accident is mathematically impossible. Now you can point towards an unproven multiverse that only brings the odds down slightly (unless there are an infinite number of universes) or just be honest for a change. Admit to yourself and others that your unknown must be supernatural.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:51 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      You telling me to be honest? That's rich. You, who refuses to actually address points, or the respond to posts fully. You, who consistently makes massive amounts of assertions with no backing. You, who run like a fucking coward when your dishonesty is pointed out. You, who even now cannot help but cherry pick responses, and not even address anything.
      You really have no integrity do you? You are just incapable of being honest in any way shape or form.
      Don't lecture me on being honest fred, because you're in no position to talk, and I'm more honest than you could ever be you pathetic little piece of lying shit.

      April 24, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • AtheistSteve


      The simple idea that we have an eternal soul, that we don't truly die is the one main reason that religion portrys this life as meaningless. We value things that are rare, limited and finite. Something that is abundant is cheap. Something that is infinite in supply is worthless. It requires rarity to make something special and precious. An eternal afterlife just sounds endlessly boring, stale quite frankily awful.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      "All I need is the fact our existence by random chance or accident is mathematically impossible."

      Clearly it is not impossible. Changes over billions of years have brought us to where we are. Please show your calculations or source for your "mathematically impossible".

      April 24, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • fred

      Even Stephen Hawking agrees with the mathematical impossibility of our existence and the fact alternatives such as multiverse and infinite spontaneous creation events are needed to establish a no god needed model.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      The same quote mine from Stephen Hawking doesn't prove your point. The fact remains, that you have yet to present any evidence to back up assertions you've made, and you continually avoid doing so. You're a liar and a hypocrite for your religion. Martin Luther would be so proud.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      My car is parked 3 meters from the side of my house. It is mathematically impossible for me to park it in the same spot tomorrow if measured to the nearest nanometer. Your point? You are playing fast and loose with statistics. Just how likely is it that the constant of gravity could be different than it is? What other examples of different measured gravity constsants do you have to compare it with? Hmmm. We have but one universe to observe and absolutely zero to compare it to. Good luck finding staitstics to back up our preposterous claims.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:21 pm |
    • fred

      Atheist Steve
      "The simple idea that we have an eternal soul, that we don't truly die is the one main reason that religion portrys this life as meaningless."
      =>Do you mean a worldly life is meaningless to religion because money, fame etc all are worthless? Because life is very meaningful as all was created to bring about life eternal. What does it prosper a man to gain the world but lose his soul.

      " It requires rarity to make something special and precious. An eternal afterlife just sounds endlessly boring, stale quite frankily awful."
      =>correct, that rarity is the timeless radiance of God. As Christians we are in Christ and like Christ when we are raised up. I doubt Christ is bored and as God who always was eternal we may just enter that state. Hard to imagine what a time line looks like outside of our only known fixed sequential periods of past, present and future. Sorry, I cannot wrap my head around that one as being a perceived short or long period of time. Consider how time flies when your having fun and drags when your not.
      Hell does not need to be fire it could be an endless boring state where you watch me endlessly fixed on the radiance of God.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:21 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      "Even Stephen Hawking agrees with the mathematical impossibility of our existence"

      Quotation please. The probability may be low given all of the variables and the multitude of planets without life but as we are here it cannot be impossible. If you have any evidence that a god did it please provide that because your stating that it is impossible without a god is not evidence.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:22 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      "Your preposterous claims."

      April 24, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Thank you for the wonderful example of exactly what I was talking about. Your dishonest tactics show how little backing you have, and how you need to try and co-opt anything to start your irrelevant tangents to avoid actually addressing anything.
      Pathetic fred.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • fred

      Atheist Steve
      In Santa We Trust

      I admit I am somewhat of a dummy when it comes to physics but this post does an excellent summary of the fine tuning argument:
      16 Reasons Why I Believe In God: (4) The Fine-Tuning of the Universe

      April 24, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      No fred.
      I mean life itself, not the trappings of material wants, is meaningless if it continues forever. Life is precious because it ends. Grief is meaningful because it reflect real loss. From your twisted point of view dying on my wedding day would be the greatest thing that could possibly happen because heaven is infinitely better than living with my future love. In fact everyone should be hoping for virulent cancer to quickly usher us into that eternal happiness. We should all be jumping for joy every time someone dies. Pleased in fact that the bombing victims have made the transition. But we don't do that do we? No we feel sad and sorry for them. And you know why? Because underneath it all we all do understand that death is final. We have invented a loophole to escape the awful truth. We live, we die, end of story.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred, There's nothing there to support your mathematical impossibility claim or that Stephen Hawking agreed. What Hawking said was that there is the appearance of fine-tuning not that fine-tuning occurred or was the work of a god. You know it all comes back to – the fact that you don't understand or can't explain doesn't mean that a god must have done it.

      April 24, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      fred, you know you are in trouble when not one of the other delusionals (Chad, Austin, Topher, Billy D. etc.) jumps in to help you out. How does it feel out there on the end of the plank, all alone?

      April 25, 2013 at 1:43 am |
    • Ted Jones


      Ted Jones
      The worship of God / faith began long before the written word
      Prove it? Where is the evidence prior to around 1500 B.C.?

      April 25, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • fred

      Tine tuning is well accepted in the scientific community as is the mathematical impossibility of life as we know it given what we currently know. The debate is not on the consensus of impossibility but reconciling that with the fact we exist. Stephen Hawking and associates believe multiverse and or spontaneous creation models provide a possible explanation to this impossibility without evidence only the hope (assurance in Hawking case) that a solution will be found.

      I am not capable of arguing the numbers and will accept that the scientific community consensus. Chad can and has debated such matters. The point is very clear that the consensus of science is our existence by chance or accident is mathematically improbable thus an unknown causation exists which will reconcile that which is self evident (we are here).

      Atheists cannot use science to prove causation and rely on faith just as believers do.

      April 25, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      "There is little or no archaeological or historical evidence to trace the Ancient Israelites prior to the 11th century BCE"
      To believe beyond this point does require faith in the writings of men. Fred, there is a reason why you must have faith.

      April 25, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      You keep saying the same thing with no evidence to back it up. As long as you continue to be dishonest, you will always be a joke here. Just another desperate, dishonest liar for your religion intent on "proving" yourself right no matter how little integrity it requires.

      April 25, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • fred

      Ted Jones
      The Fertile Crescent or cradle of civilization is the location of the Garden of Eden as described specifically in Genesis. Here Cain and Able were clearly in the Neolithic Revolution so that would put us about 11,000 BC when oral tradition passed on the knowledge of God. Prior to that we have Venus figurine at 30,000 BC and burial evidence of religion going back to Middle Paleolithic. Some would take this back 50-300 thousand years. Prior to the Fertile Crescent we do not know the specific form of religion so I lean towards 11,000 BC and the beginning of oral tradition of God.

      April 25, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • fred

      Ted Jones
      Are you suggesting Moses just got lucky when pinpointing the Garden of Eden? Just a coincidence that the fertile crescent is located there? Just a coincidence that the Garden of Eden location remains the focus of world powers and conflict of the two brothers Ishmael (Islam) and Isaac (Israel the name given to Jacob by God)? Just a coincidence that the sons of Ishmael are preparing a nuke to wipe the sons of Isaac off the map? Just a coincidence that the End of Days will be a uninhabitable land after fire rains down (nuclear?) ?

      April 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • fred

      Why don't you take it up with Stephen Hawking? :
      "A bottom-up approach to cosmology either requires one to postulate an initial state of the Universe that is carefully fine-tuned — as if prescribed by an outside agency — or it requires one to invoke the notion of eternal inflation, a mighty speculative notion to the generation of many different Universes, which prevents one from predicting what a typical observer would see." — Stephen Hawking and Thomas Hertog

      -.S.W. Hawking and Thomas Hertog, Populating the Landscape: A Top Down Approach (10 Feb 2006)

      April 25, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      You are confusing as sumption/faith as truth. There were advanced civilizations with writing and mathmatics prior to your cain and able dragging knuckles and grunting. If you actually believe the fantasy, cain went into the land of nod and got himself a wife. Your wandering jews didnt learn to write until Moses...again if you believe the bs. Your original writings were 1000s and 1000 of years and 1000s of year after the advanced civilization already established writing and mathmatics..... this gvies your fantasy very little credibility. I can write something today with hindsight and say yeah my history goes back to such and such date. As long as someone believes me I have credibility with them. You do realize there were stories of the origins of man in that same area well before the tribes were dragging knuckles....its called borrowing versions and changing them to fit your agenda... the jews had to have something to believe for self worth while wondering around the desert like idiots.

      April 25, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      And I will point out, once again, how you're being the dishonest little shit that you are. I am fully expecting you to not actually address this post, but that's just because you never do.

      1) An actual link to a direct quote would be nice, as well as the rest of what was said before and after. After all, you always say "context is important" when it comes to what your supposedly timeless unchanging god commands, so wouldn't the same hold true for what hawking said?
      2) You make a claim that a claim is "well accepted by scientists", and when asked to back that up, you give quote mines with no links from Stephen Hawking, as if every scientist must, by definition, agree with everything he says and accept it, which is not the case,

      You're pathetic fred. You continually show you have no integrity, and no basis for any claim you've made.
      As I said above, I don't really expect you to actually address this post. That would require a level of intellectual honesty and integrity that you just lack.

      April 25, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ted will burn and I will be smiling from above.


      April 25, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • fred

      Ted Jones
      "There were advanced civilizations with writing and mathmatics prior to your cain and able dragging knuckles"
      =>not that I am aware of any acceptable written language prior Egyptian hieroglyphics and even Indus script is not accepted as "writing" although incorporating glyphs.

      "Your original writings were 1000s and 1000 of years and 1000s of year after the advanced civilization already established writing"
      =>Moses was raised in the Pharaohs house and educated. It is assumed though not mentioned that the writing style and method was influenced by this education. We are speaking of a 1,200 year spread at best not thousand and thousands.

      "You do realize there were stories of the origins of man in that same area well before the tribes were dragging knuckles"
      =>Yes, and depending on your view oral religion tradition goes back 10,000 to 300,000 years.

      ".its called borrowing versions and changing them to fit your agenda."
      =>yes that happened then and now.

      "the jews had to have something to believe for self worth while wondering around the desert like idiots."
      =>It is proven and self evident that faith and hope go a long way in bringing anyone through life. Science is built upon consistent observable patterns. One consistent observable pattern is that People need God or a substitute for God(typically reflects the principles or truth of God) and form a belief that provides hope and assurance.

      April 25, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • fred

      Following is a direct link to Hawking alternative to the improbability of existence. I cannot paste his entire book

      On page 14 you should also note Pre-big bang cosmology assumes a fine-tuned initial state through singularity. This is common assumption in cosmology and I doubt a list of those who are in consensus would be of value if you do not understand the commonality of bottom-up approach in the field of cosmology in pre big bang alternatives.

      April 25, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      You brought a lovely misrepresentation of the paper. On page 14, Hawking is commenting on eternal inflation hypothesis, and pointing out that for it to make sense, you would need to assume "fine-tuning" at an initial point. If you were actually honest and read on, you would see that he continues on to criticize this method, and points out specific flaws.
      hawking is promoting top-down approaches for pre big-bang cosmology in this paper.
      So either you didn't read it fully, and merely quote mined to suit your own claims, or you are intentionally misrepresenting this paper, and are, as I have said, a liar for your religion. Which is it?
      Oh by the way, you have yet to address the second part of my post.

      April 25, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • fred

      As I said I posted that as proof bottom up fine tuning is generally accepted methodology.
      No, this article advances alternatives to that which is accepted by consensus (.i.e. top down view verses bottom up). The argument proposes the impossibility of life, given fine tuning, actually is correct given constant scalar fields save more in gradient energy. That is what is inconsistent with the amplitude for an expanding Lorentzian universe.

      In short Hawking is saying oops we need a new model if I plan to remain credible when claiming no god needed. Here are some alternatives

      April 25, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
    • Science

      Hey FRED............... maybe it is time to come out of the sand box ? Or you can pound sand your choice ?

      Surprising New Function for Small RNAs in Evolution.........time to pound sand maybe ?

      Apr. 19, 2013 — An international research team in including Christian Schlötterer and Alistair McGregor of the Vetmeduni Vienna has discovered a completely new mechanism by which evolution can change the appearance of an organism. The researchers found that the number of hairs on flies' legs varies according to the level of activity of a so-called microRNA.


      April 25, 2013 at 6:42 pm |
    • fred

      Perhaps I did not understand your question. Do you doubt fine tuning is an accepted fact or do you doubt the fine tuning argument proves our accidental existence is unlikely?

      April 25, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Generally accepted methodology for what? Complete speculation on pre Big Bang cosmology? Oh please, pre Big Bang cosmology is at best a mental exercise on what could be possible, and is in no way scientifically testable at this time. You're taking a methodology that some use, and pretending that all scientists are actually conducting tests and calculating probabilities on this. That's not science, that's just musings.
      Are you really trying to "prove" god through thought experimentation of those who are not even proposing these hypothesis for peer review? Really? Are you that desperate?

      At this point I'm actually doubting your ability to actually respond to actual points instead of constantly moving around everything once you're shown to not know what the hell you're talking about.

      April 25, 2013 at 7:17 pm |
    • .

      "Perhaps I did not understand your question. Do you doubt fine tuning is an accepted fact or do you doubt the fine tuning argument proves our accidental existence is unlikely?"

      OH look fred is using the very same arguments Chad was using I wonder why?

      Hi Chad having fun.


      Oh, wow...can't believe I left "No atheist has ever read the bible" off the Gospel of Chad list:

      Gospel of Chad:
      (Updated list derived from history of Chad conversations.)

      1. All atheists agree with everything Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins say, even if it is unrelated to atheism. Hawking and Dawkins disagree on free will, however, but you should ignore this conflict or any atheist who says they disagree.
      2. All atheists agree with one another on everything even if it has nothing to do with atheism. See #1 for models from which you can derive all their beliefs.
      3. The definition of atheist includes anything that any atheist I disagree with believes or anything I feel like tossing in there. Ignore any definitions in pesky places like dictionaries and philosophical encyclopedias.
      4. If one atheist somewhere on the internet said something, then, since all atheists agree with him/her, I can use that randomly selected example as an argument to address all other atheists.
      5. The definition of atheism includes not just materialism but strict deterministic materialism. Non-believers who might be Buddhists, believe in probabilistic physics, see consciousness as prior to the physical world, believe in, say, witchcraft aren’t really atheists.
      6. No atheist has ever read the bible. I mean, obviously, they’d be Christians if they had, right? OK, so a few have proven to me – OK, multiple times – that they have read the bible. See #11 (just lie).

      Free will:
      7. All people who use the term “free will” really mean the same exact thing by that term, which matches my personal use of the term “free will” (unless backed into a corner, then I just declare all other meanings irrelevant)
      8. Fatalism and determinism are the same thing. It has been pointed out to me that historically these terms have been used with different meanings, but I find it more convenient to make up my own definitions, as with atheism and free will.

      In fact, I brilliantly argued “If a person is a determinist, how in the world does deterrence even come into the picture? Determinists believe in an ever marching set of deterministic outcomes based on an existing set of antecedent conditions. Those conditions march back to the origin of the universe, no way to change the past, so no way to change the future. (On April 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm)

      After reading a bit more about fatalism and determinism I decided to change my tune to a claim that determinism leads to fatalism (and to pretend this was what I was saying all along). I’m sticking to reading easy pop philosophers, though, and selective websites on the topic as anything more complex makes my head hurt. I have read snippets from a couple of websites now so that ought to put me on par with people who’ve read dozens of books on the topic, understand neurobiology and have written on both the philosophical and cultural aspects of free will and people’s belief in the topic. Oh, yeah, I know what I’m talking about!

      9. A determinist cannot believe that humans can change. This would, of course, mean that nothing can change. Which would mean…oh…crud…better put my head back up my ass.
      10. A determinist cannot believe in punishing people for crimes. This is because…well…it doesn’t matter. Just keep repeating it.

      Telling lies:
      11. It is ethical to lie so long as it promotes Christian beliefs.
      12. Speaking of telling lies, a really good way to do this is to rephrase what your opponent says and then keep repeating the misquote in hopes that he or she will get bored and leave your lie as the last statement. Then you win. You can do this either by rewording as a supposed paraphrase or pulling lines out of context and reordering them. God really loves this and gives you extra endurance to sit at the computer all day and keep repeating it.
      13. One way to use this super endurance to your advantage is to keep posting the same questions over and over again even after they’ve been answered 50 times. Just pretend they haven’t been answered and act self-righteous about it. It’s really cool if you can ask this same thing on multiple threads and then claim it was never answered forcing people to waste time on the same thing over and over and over.
      14. In particular don’t forget that whatever someone says you can respond with “What investigation have you done into…”. Especially good is to ask what investigation was done into the truth of the God of Israel. When the non-Christian comes back to ask how much research you did to prove other gods aren’t real answer “I don’t need to do any because I proved the God of Israel is real and that negates all other gods”. When asked how you proved that repeat the words “empty tomb” over and over until divine light shines on the souls of the heathens.
      15. When they refuse to play your game or you don’t like the answer add some sarcasm, but use an emoticon to soften it so they’ll know your snide remarks are all in good fun.
      16. Consider asking completely nonsensical questions that can’t even be understood, let alone answered. Best yet include something the person didn’t say as a premise. For example, you might ask an atheist opponent “You say you like murdering small children on Wednesdays, could you explain how this fits with your beliefs about string theory?” Then when your question is ignored accuse the person of avoidance and make up wild hypotheses as to why they are avoiding you.
      17. Above all else keep asking questions while avoiding answering any yourself.

      Science, math and psychology:
      18. If one scientist says something that backs me, then I can assume all scientists agree with that statement.
      19. If atheist scientists say something, even if it is the view of the majority of people in that science, it should be ignored. See #11.
      20. Atheists are ruled by confirmation bias. I am free of it – it’s just great luck that everything I read and all the “data” around me confirm my strong religious convictions. See #19 on ignoring anything else.
      21. Infinity = all finite numbers according to the Chad. Thirty or forty years of constraint is the same as eternal torment.
      22. Rehabilitation and deterrence are the same thing. Yep…convincing a drug addict not to use drugs in case they are shot dead and getting them off the addiction would be the same by my wondrous Chad logic.

      General truths about the CNN belief blog:
      23. All non-believers are, by definition, idiots so you can use illogical arguments and they’ll just fall for it.
      24. If I post a quote that has a few key words in it from our discussion I can claim it backs my point even if it actually says the exact opposite thing from what I’m claiming. Atheists, as mentioned above, are too dumb to notice. Best yet is to post a link or reference a book which actually says the opposite of what I’m saying and just assume no one will look at it.
      25. There is a huge mass of fence sitters out there who are eagerly reading CNN blog comments in order to decide whether or not to believe in God.
      26. I will personally save all those mentioned in # 25 because I, Chad, am super smart. I know this because I get away with all the above mentioned lies and manipulations. Sometimes people think they are pointing these things out but they really aren’t. Or the stupid atheist masses aren’t reading them anyway.
      27. Phrase everything as if it’s a lecture so you look like you know what you’re talking about. See #23 about atheists being idiots and #24 about people not reading anything you post you’ll see that the silly atheists will fall for it every time. In particular they won’t look back to the earlier part of the discussion to see how I’m contradicting myself. This is very well aided by another tactic:
      28. As soon as you make an ass of yourself break the conversation into a new thread. That way all the newcomers (see #25 on how they are waiting to have their souls saved) will not bother to read back and see how ignorant you are.
      29. If someone points out to you that citing Wikipedia is not an adequate source for the discussion at hand you can always find a good undergraduate philosophy paper to cite instead.
      30. Never question another Christian no matter how incorrect or offensive their position.
      31. Just remember that you can define a term any way you want and you are always right!

      April 25, 2013 at 7:24 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      Not sure why Chad wants to keep changing his name????????????????

      April 25, 2013 at 7:56 pm |
    • fred

      Ok, you are so far off I am not sure where to begin.

      Populating the Landscape: A Top Down Approach by S.W. Hawking and Thomas Hertog provided the summary of Hawkings unproven alternatives to the single universe, single big Bang theory currently accepted. If you want to argue against the big bang then it is you that has some strange unsupported idea regarding the construct of our known universe.

      The set of alternative universes in the landscape, with amplitudes presented in the abstract is what meets your statement of pre big bang musings. You have it completely backwards. It is Hawking who is attempting to justify the improbability of our existence with "musings".

      Now, the extent to which fine tuning argues for or against God is a matter of belief not science at this point. You must at a minimum acknowledge that it is a big clue and one more reason that argues for a supernatural position. Then again it is one more reason to be agnostic ................if intellectual honesty is of value.

      April 25, 2013 at 8:52 pm |
    • fred

      Just remember we are speaking about supernatural. Stop thinking in terms of God since that throws your grasp of reality in the trash. Once you acknowledge the possibility (actual reality based on known physical laws) that the unknown is supernatural you can begin to move forward. This meets your goal of no god needed.

      April 25, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • fred

      No matter how you try to spin the tales, the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible is a non-possibility.

      April 25, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Really? You're going with that pile of shit lie? The paper is on pre Big Bang Cosmological hypothesis you fucking dishonest tool. The fact that you continue to try and lie your way into being right is truly a testament to the depth of your complete lack of morality, as if your history of discussion tactics on this site weren't enough.
      To say that the paper is a "summary of Hawkings unproven alternatives to the single universe, single big Bang theory currently accepted." is such a dishonest statement that it's staggering.
      Big Bang is indeed a theory, but the single universe, single big bang scenario is a hypothesis, and Hawking is saying there are a few problems with that particular bottom up reasoning, and gives alternatives.
      I am really astounded at the level of utter dishonesty that you show once again, and wonder whether you really do think that lying for your god is a good thing.

      April 25, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • Peoria

      Hawaii, r u on the payroll of any group that pays you to be here? idiot don't you have a life, loser?

      April 25, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • oOo

      Actually, Peoria, although I can't speak for hawaii, I can say that, being retired, some days, I am on here quite a bit, so I can tell your suspicions are ill-founded.

      April 25, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • fred

      I give you a PDF of Hawking's easiest summary acknowledging how and why fine tuning creates a problem for the "no god needed camp" together with his basis for multiverse and 3 other viable alternatives and all you can do is stomp out of the room mumbling obscenities?
      The correct response would be "thank you, it is enlightening to see how the top minds arrived at their current positions on cosmological dynamics". Their work to date cannot establish nor is there any valid scientific evidence to support a no god needed position.

      April 26, 2013 at 1:47 am |
    • Science

      Fred here is the acrticle from cnn NO HEAVEN ! go pound sand fred !

      Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says updated Tue May 17, 2011
      By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen Hawking said in a newspaper interview this week. "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when...


      Learning is fun with facts.......................... and facts work when teaching children.

      Atheist Prof. Peter Higgs: Stop calling Higgs boson the ‘God particle’

      Professor Peter Higgs said recently that there is no God and so people should stop referring to the theoretical partial that
      bears his name as the “God particle.”


      April 26, 2013 at 3:36 am |
    • Science

      Hey Fred.................time to come out of the sand box maybe ?

      Surprising New Function for Small RNAs in Evolution.........time to pound sand maybe ?

      Apr. 19, 2013 — An international research team in including Christian Schlötterer and Alistair McGregor of the Vetmeduni Vienna has discovered a completely new mechanism by which evolution can change the appearance of an organism. The researchers found that the number of hairs on flies' legs varies according to the level of activity of a so-called microRNA.


      Source above better than te bible ! No god(s) needed !

      April 26, 2013 at 3:50 am |
    • Science

      And laws of association makes it part of the devil's cults too ...........does it not fred ?

      April 26, 2013 at 5:28 am |
    • fred

      In that same interview Hawking referred to his main agenda: I wrote the book because God did not create the universe, in what he said was an attempt to banish a divine creator from physics. I am certain you have picked up on these boards and in life that we are all agenda driven people.

      If you note carefully all of Hawking's alternatives that point to possible natural reasons for no god needed are not supported by acceptable evidence. The same quality of evidence you demand of my God is wholly lacking in all known spontaneous creation and multiverse alternatives.

      April 26, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • fred

      As to the God particle I agree with Peter Higgs not because the name began as an inside joke but because God is not of matter or energy that can be measured. At best mathematical extrapolation based on a quantum logical qubit state approaches the infinite attribute of God but that is about it. That should tickle your atheist heart since it is the equivalent of saying God only exists in the mind not a natural state.

      It should actually be called the anti-God particle because prior to mass being imparted from the strong force there exists a temporary state where mass does not exist in a vacua. You see, if God elected not to create He would have remained eternally in such an abyss. Fortunately for our universe or the billions of universes Hawking speculates exist God said let there be and there was.

      April 26, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      That's right fred, just continue to avoid the fact that the paper is merely a synopsis on pre-Big Bang Cosmology hypothesis, and an alternative method being proposed by Hawking. Continue to lie and hope that no one actually reads the thing in the hopes that you can continue to lie and delude yourself into thinking you're being honest.
      You're just getting more and more pathetic as the days go by fred, as all of your flawed arguments and dishonest tactics are exposed.

      April 26, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • fred

      "That's right fred, just continue to avoid the fact that the paper is merely a synopsis on pre-Big Bang Cosmology hypothesis, and an alternative method being proposed by Hawking."

      =>Great you finally read the whole paper. I recommend you hang onto it because the basics presented for the quantum
      annihilation of one universe and the quantum creation of another back in 2005 remains the core of current speculation (musings as you call it") that there is hope science can prove "no god needed". I would hope we could agree that at this point there is no valid scientific evidence that god is or is not needed.

      => Back to fine tuning at the bottom of page 3 note "Hence the evolution of pre-big bang cosmologies always includes a genuinely quantum gravitational phase, unless the initial state is extremely fine-tuned." Hawkings is arguing fine-tuning is not a requirement for our existence (as apologists suggest), i.e. the universe was created for man, rather a requirement for a genuinely quantum gravitational phase. That phase is the basis of multiverse and spontaneous creation.

      Look at all the research and note that fine-tuning is accepted. The issue is what to make of it.

      I would think you would be happy that Hawking has put a arrow in your quiver even though it is just "musings"

      April 26, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Do you even realize that you just refuted your own argument? You admit that this is all pre Big Bang Cosmology, and all hypothesis and speculation, then you take a single assumption within those speculations and pretend that it's some kind of "accepted fact"! HOW CAN AN ASSUMPTION WITHIN A HYPOTHESIS THAT CAN'T BE TESTED BE ACCEPTED FACT!?
      Seriously fred do you even fucking read what you're writing anymore?

      April 26, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      I don't even know whether talking to you is worth it anymore for me. You obviously don't care about truth, honesty, integrity, or anything like that. I've tried to correct you on science, logic, and fallacies. I've tried to get you to actually discuss things honestly, but you're just not interested in any of those things.

      April 26, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
    • fred

      I agree with you, no sense continuing any further dialog. You either through inattention or deliberate malice failed to notice fine-tuning is an accepted fact in Hawking's paper and not even debated anymore except as to what are the implications of fine-tuning are.

      April 26, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Yup, no point in talking to you anymore. No answers, just continuing to dishonestly reassert your position over and over.
      You do not care about what is true. You do not care about what is logical.
      All you care about is finding anything to twist to support your god claim, no matter how dishonest you need to be.
      I feel sorry for your fred. You are so brainwashed, and so dishonest that you will avoid anything.
      I'm done with you, and this thread will be a wonderful post to show exactly how dishonest of a person you are.

      April 26, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Science

      Sorry Fred you are Full of it

      I have a BIG chondrite that says so !

      April 26, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
  11. HeavenSent's Camel-Toe Diaries

    My camel-toe loves all people even if they can't get out.

    April 24, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Phony heavensent, your lust for unrighteousness knows no end. Thanks for constantly proving you atheists have no shame.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ha Ha very funny tommy tom (cough) scotty. Stealing my handle to tell the lies of satan (the devil) rather than believing His truth will get you to the bottom of the sea. My 12-year-old daughter reached menopause before I did. The path of the unrighteous leads to evil pancakes.


      April 24, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent's 12-Year-Old Daughter

      Mama I'm scared. I can't find the rock.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Phony heavensent, you posted while stealing my handle " HeavenSent, Ha Ha very funny tommy tom (cough) scotty. Stealing my handle to tell the lies of satan (the devil) rather than believing His truth will get you to the bottom of the sea. My 12-year-old daughter reached menopause before I did. The path of the unrighteous leads to evil pancakes.


      HeavenSent's 12-Year-Old Daughter

      Mama I'm scared. I can't find the rock."

      Answer: What part of NO shame do you not comprehend? No braking mechanism developed either. Poster punk for bad behavior of the atheists.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • Spell Braker...

      "No braking mechanism developed either."

      God damn braking mechanisms...

      April 24, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Those that mock their dead bones will burn for eternity.


      April 24, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • sam stone

      HS: Still got that Jeebus marital aid shoved deep up that weed patch between your legs? Amen

      April 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sam Stoner, this is for you Romans 1:17-32

      April 24, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • sam stone

      HS: This is for you "Fvck Off, Cvnt"

      April 24, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • sam stone

      HS: Jeebus is waiting for you. What are you doing down here? You could be slurping up the savior's gooey goodness in a fortnight. Do you have a sidearm?

      April 24, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
  12. Trance


    April 24, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
  13. Alias

    People who are alienated and feel alone, especially those with self esteem issues, can be influenced by any group that accepts them. This will include any church as well as the KKK, the army, skin heads, black panthers, gangs, various internet things, etc. If they have a hobby or find a sport they can play well that could also give them the self esteem they need.
    I want to empathise with this young man. I want to understand how another human being can turn into a child killing monster. I also know that once a dog has rabies, you have to put it down.
    Now, the question that a lot of people on this blog want to know is : Does Islam push disturbed children/young adults into 'evil' more than the other groups I named?

    April 24, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Turning children into killing machines?

      Paris Island.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Alias

      The fact that you would compare Paris Island to leaving bombs on street coeners tells me everything i will ever want or need to know about you.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Of course you object, you didn't even notice I said machines rather than monsters.

      You see the process is the same, with a few variations. Remove Nationalisim and introduce religion and you get the same thing.

      Young men go in, get trained, then indoctrinated, and then they kill other young men.

      Each side does the same thing.

      Old men start the wars, and have the young men fight them

      April 24, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Alias

      fvch you William
      I saw EXACTLY what you wrote.
      My father was a marine and a disabled veteran. Tell me William, who are these bomb makers protecting?
      There is a difference between defending your country and killing at random. Try to comprehend the different morals that are taught to our marines vs the terrorists. If you are so stupid and shallow that you think the two are the same you don't deserve the protection the marines provide for this country. Please relocate to your country of choice. Preferably one that defends itself with amoral idiots just like you.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @William, I think there's a big difference between a country defending itself from slaughter, economic enslavement or loss of lands than in people fighting over some belief system based on imagined gods and outdated science. Yes, military persons are always indoctrinated, but that's not inherently bad. There are situations, like military service, that call for group oriented thinking which may be inappropriate elsewhere.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • William Demuth


      Stick it.

      I have buried one with my own damn hands.

      War is war, we ALL fight it by whatever means we can.

      Perhaps a little less hatred taught to children, and these meaningless slaughter might stop.

      Be honest with yourself. Why did we invade Iraq? Half of America still says 9-11, and they didn't have a damn thing to do with it. Our leaders LIED to us, and we like the sheep we are, murdered whomever we were told to murder live on national TV.

      How many HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people did OUR children kill? A few old men tell a bunch of kids lies and then ask them to kill for them.

      Our whole premise for that war was proved as faulty as these two idiots justifications are being proven as we speak.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • Camel Toad

      " Tell me William, who are these bomb makers protecting? There is a difference between defending your country and killing at random."

      That would be true IF the bomb makers were only selling the bombs to those whom they support, the problem is they "support" profit more than any one nation thus they sell their violent wares to the highest bidder for fear of displeasing their true God, aka The Free Hand of The Market...

      April 24, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • Alias

      But they had weapons of mass destruction and aided and abetted terrorists

      April 24, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Whether the motivation is Religious Jihad or Nationalism, the means of turning children into killing machines are basically the same.
      If you think Marine Corps basic training is about anything other than tearing down recruits' egos to rebuild them as part of a killing collective, you've never seen basic training.
      Each recruit relearns EVERYTHING about living. For example, while eating, they can only use their right hand while the left has to stay directly on the knee, and eyes must stare directly at the food trays. They must re-learn how to walk, talk and breathe as the Corps dictates.
      The process of reconstructing recruits and molding them into future troops is based on building a team that sees itself in opposition to those who are outside of it.
      It is what military historian Christian G. Appy dubbed the "solidarity of the despised."
      After the initial dehumanization and reconstruction, troops learn how to hate.
      Drill Instructors indoctrinate recruits to dehumanize the enemy in order to train them how to overcome any fear or prejudice against killing.
      During Vietnam, the enemy in was simply a "g.ook," "di.nk," or a "slope." Today, the enemy is a "rag head" and "sand ni.gg.er".

      That the end result is a soldier who defends the honour of his country is beside the point.
      Indoctrination is indoctrination. The same principles can be (and are) applied to para-military extremist groups.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Of course we knew they had weapons.
      All Bush had to do was look at the bills of sale.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Sadaam Hussein was considered a valuable ally to the United States for quite some time.
      He wan't any less a brutal dictator in 1989 than he was in 2001.
      Can you give a specififc example of how he aided and abetted terrorists?
      And if he did, how is it qualitatively different than when the US trains and arms dissidents in South America and the Middle East to overthrow democratically elected governments as they have done time and again over the last 75 years?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • Alias

      @billy Demuth, you moron
      We invaded Iraq for several reasons. Every intelligence agency onthe planet believed Sadam had WMDs, becaused he had used them before. I'm so tired of you brain dead democrats calling everyone liars. It all started with Bill Clinton lying, now you want to try to make us all seem as stupid and immoral as you.
      If you feel so bad about Iraq, go there and do something to help those poor people. Not that they want or need help from a retard like you.

      April 24, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
  14. Jim

    Maybe all it would take for them to strap on the vests is for them to suddenly lose the power they currently enjoy due to their numbers? Faced with ever-increasing numbers of nonChristians you can almost feel the panic creeping into the Christian Right. Desparate people do desperate things.

    April 24, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      You can feel things in others? Amazing super power

      April 24, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Timothy

      What would Christmas be if it was celebrated at home with family and not a commercial enterprise we all must put up with for several months each year? Would it's value to those who observe it be lessened with fewer advertisements and holiday themed music being pumped into every mall?

      If Christ is real then none of that should matter, it would be as powerful and meaningful with no fan fare what-so-ever, but for some reason many Christians fight for their right to shove their faith in everybody's face proclaiming a war on Christmas each year when anyone suggests they keep their personal faith holiday at home.

      How does this relate? Well Muslims in this country are told in no uncertain words to keep their faith to themselves and at home so they feel like their is a war on their faith which means those unstable persons, usually males between the ages of 16 and 28, who can become easily radicalized by their version of Fox News like their "Inspire" magazine.

      So whats the answer? If we ask them to keep their faith at home then we should at least do the same ourselves and let everyone live in peace with no religion lording it over the others. I know that's hard to do when each side says they are the ones with the truth and the right and God on their side, but it is the only way besides all out violent conflict.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll...etc.
      Interesting that young men and boys were the victims of the RCC crimes and cover ups worldwide. That Bill can't judge the feelings in others, whether abused children or young pregnant girls that were denied contraception shows how amazingly callous he and his religion can be.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I agree in principle at least with you Timothy. A more internal, reflective and reverent practice of Advent and Christmas would be refreshing in our materialistic society. If that were then extended into a deeper devotional life as Christians throughout the year, day by day, through Lent and Easter, I believe we would see more authentic conversion of lives and less strife in our neighborhoods.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Who was denied contraception demon? Where I live it's available on every street corner at little or no cost. What the church teaches is that if you have a proper regard for the value of your body and spirit that you won't prostiitute yourself in order to "feel" like another person loves you when, in truth, you are merely an object of their own gratification. If the young woman you mention could realize that truth, she wouldn't need contraception.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll...etc.
      How out of touch you are with reality Billy. I think you should check into the closest monastery where you could pray and follow your catechism to your delude hearts content.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • Science

      Bill and what did the old pope say back in 2010 ?...................clue CNN ran an article on it !

      April 24, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Pope Benedict acknowledged that the use of contraception could be a default mechanism to protect people from rampant disease caused by immersion in a society where women are treated as mere objects. This is a sort of consolation position the pope took ,recognizing that some people are not able or willing to accept the broader teaching that seexuality is somehow more meaningful than what we have allowed it to become. The fact that he made such a statement, first of all, counters the claims by some that the pope is against contraception, to begin with and secondly shows, once again that detractors of the Church teaching are only partially informed and draw conclusions that reinforce their prior belief

      April 24, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Mark 7:5-23


      April 24, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Science

      What about that other issue Bill about what created the universe ? You know the old pope is full of it on this don't you ?

      Pope praises science, but insists God created world updated Thur October 28, 2010
      Stephen Hawking is wrong, Pope Benedict XVI said Thursday – God did create the universe. The pope didn't actually mention the world-famous scientist, who argues in a book published last month that the laws of physics show there is no need for a supreme... \


      April 24, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll...etc.
      Where women are treated as mere objects. You mean in an organization that does not allow women a voice to address their needs but must toe the line of the hierarchy, where could that possibly happen in a modern cult?

      April 24, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The male is the glory of God, but the female is the glory of man (1 Corinthians 11:7). They are similar, but not the same.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Ted Jones

      Bill Deacon

      .......... If the young woman you mention could realize that truth, she wouldn't need contraception.
      And if people were true in their faith, they would not rely on modern medicine or doctors.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Ted Jones


      The male is the glory of God...

      Well jesus was into dudes...makes sense

      April 24, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ted, Romans 1:17-32 was written about folks like you.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
    • sam

      HeavenSent: this was written for people like you.

      ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
      .........."...\.......... _.•´

      April 24, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sam, you just proved Romans 1:32 to be true. Thanks for playing.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Both Bill and HeavenSent on the same thread? The pure ignorance arrogance, and stupidity is starting to become overwhelming.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • sam

      There is nothing that can prove bullshit quotes from your idiot book to be true. Run along, you crazy old bat.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Once again hawaii takes a stand for... well for nothing

      April 24, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      And will you once again run like the coward you are once it is pointed out that you have stated that you understand why the Catholic church has a papal order to keep molestation cases away from the proper authorities and continues to shuffle priests around? You're pathetic Bill. Nothing but immoral apologetic bullshit.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal troll...etc.
      And Billy once again defends the crimes of the RCC and the subjection of the female laity. Nothing new from Billy.

      April 24, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      You must have missed the part where the words understandable and explicable were differentiated from the word excusable. I think it was in eighth grade. Your constant petulant harping on an issue that you cannot substantiate with comparable data sets from other organizations not only undermines your attack on the Church, it doesn't move other conversation about other matters (such as the present topic) forward either. You are guilty of what one poster informed us earlier today is known as over generalization. It's a great tactic for shouting down people whom you disagree with, just has no honesty about it.

      April 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll...etc.
      LOL, pot calling the kettle. You run out your stats on child abuse as if that makes what happened in the crimes and cover ups in the RCC more acceptable, pathetic. Then you blather on about how much charitable work the RCC does compared to others, totally false. In both USA States and countries that have the lowest church attendance the per capita aid donations are the highest. You know why Billy because the funds are not siphoned off to keep the princes of the church and hierarchy living the high life. Gates, Buffet and now Bloomberg will do more in their lifetimes for mankind than the RCC has done in 2000 years. You pious lump of sh1t.

      April 24, 2013 at 5:35 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      HS. As the list includes " Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," AND "Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, "

      I'd say that pretty much covers the whole human race, so there's no room for your smugness – you have the same fate as us whether that is the reality or the biblical delusion.

      April 24, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Are you talking about that moronic self-admitted survey that you've been bandying about as if it were an objective survey of all priests? Pathetic. And you still have not actually said they should be held accountable. You make excuse after excuse after excuse for the criminal actions of your masters.
      Stockholm's Syndrome anyone?

      April 24, 2013 at 7:47 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      Tell me, does it ever get tiring making excuses for evil deeds done by your masters? Do you have any integrity or humanity left after your obvious indoctrination?

      April 24, 2013 at 8:13 pm |
  15. Colin

    William said it. It is this same feeling of inadequacy that drives the god nuts in the USA, too. They are richer, better educated and have less of a persecution complex than many Muslims, so they are hardly likely to strap on a suicide vest, but the underlying lack of self esteem does seem to motivate many fundamentalist Christians.

    I have often wondered whether deep feelings of s.exual inadequacy or a total lack of any s.ex drive also motivates many religious people to turn to their sky-fairies. They certainly seem hell bent on regulating s.ex among the entire population to the point of making it boring.

    April 24, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • Bob

      Colin, that's interesting and I think you are correct. In regard to demographics, and aside from inadequacy, another point that Christopher Hitchens and others have made is that Christians in the US (or god nuts anywhere, for that matter, and as you describe them) aren't necessarily uneducated or unintelligent, but that they are good at making excuses to shield themselves from the obvious fictions of their beliefs.Sort of a combination of willed ignorance and overall dishonesty in the face of ready observables that incontrovertibly show their beliefs to be complete nonsense.

      April 24, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Colin, you seem intent on a misrepresentation. I suggest reading John Paul II's theology of the body after which you may have a better appreciation of the Catholic teaching on the broad spectrum of human seexuality. Or please feel free to remain in ignorance and promulgate it.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • Colin

      Would that be the same John Paul II who opposed condom use despite the spread of AIDS, opposed any contraception use despite millions of unwanted pregnancies and oversaw a Catholic Church marbled to the rafters with pedophiles and their protectors?

      April 24, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Well, again, you express contempt prior to investigation. Simply because you feel, without substantiation I might add, that certain policies might be more viable doesn't give you license to miss represent the well developed and intrinsically accurate policies of the Church. I am simply challenging you to educate yourself on the supporting arguments for the Church's positions before you malign them but I suppose that is too much effort for a colossal intellect such as yourself.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • Billy

      "they are good at making excuses to shield themselves from the obvious fictions of their beliefs."

      Child 1: "Ha ha!! Billy still believes in Santa Claus! He's such a baby! Ha ha! Billy is a baby! Billy is a baby!!"
      Billy: "No I don't, I don't beleive in Santa Claus or his elves, and your Jesus isn't real eaither!"
      All other children on playground: "What!! Oh My God! He just said Jesus doesn't exist, he's gonna burn!! Billy's gonna burn! Billy's gonna burn!!"

      April 24, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • Colin

      Bill, please feel free to educate me on whatever in that report you feel is pertinent to our discussion. The RCC still to this day maintains positions on se.xual activity that are patently ridiculous, including

      1. No use of condoms to prevent the sp-read of se.xually transmitted diseases.
      2. No use of oral or any other contraception by women (or men) who do not want children.
      3. No s.ex before marriage
      5. No se.x by consenting gay couples
      6. No masturb.ation

      And, each of the above beliefs is based on nothing more than wishes they impute too the Judeo-Christian sky fairy. It is silly, primitive nonsense at its worst. It would be mere foolery, but for the fact that it causes real harm, especially in parts of the World where the RCC still has power over large numbers of people.

      So, go ahead, Bill, tell me what I got wrong and enlighten me about what JP II has said on the topic of s.ex that is inconsistent with the above positions or otherwise undermines my comments.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • Science

      Bill and what did the old pope say back in 2010 ?...................clue CNN ran an article on it !

      April 24, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll...etc.
      Policies of your beliefs, policies of your cult, policies the majority of your laity don't even follow, so pray tell why should any one outside your cult educate themselves on the BS coming out of the Vatican or your mouth? No one gives a sh1t what you believe, get over yourself.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Why would anyone rely on an unmarried celibate priests's musings about s3xuality? That would be like believers relying on my musings on imaginary friends, which they should do of course.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      HotAirAce, the roll of the church is to ensure Jesus' truth is taught.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Hot Air, the roll of the church is to ensure Jesus' truth is taught.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • Busy Baker

      " the roll of the church is to ensure Jesus' truth is taught."

      Would that make it a "sinnah-man" roll, then?

      April 24, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Spell Braker... Roll Player

      Yup, their "roll" is to try and get as many coins out of your pockets as they shift you side to side...

      April 24, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Science

      Hey HS where is the truth in what the pope said in 2010

      Pope praises science, but insists God created world updated Thur October 28, 2010
      Stephen Hawking is wrong, Pope Benedict XVI said Thursday – God did create the universe. The pope didn't actually mention the world-famous scientist, who argues in a book published last month that the laws of physics show there is no need for a supreme... \


      April 24, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Stephen Hawking , another know nothing atheist who will learn Jesus' truth when he goes back to Him. 1000 years of summer school if in store for nonbelievers.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Colin, I don't see by the manner of your posting and the history of things I've seen before that you have a genuine interest in this discussion. I believe your opinions are already set. However, I would like to suggest that you approach the teachings of the Church from a different angle, just for your own enlightenment. Catholic do not see the teachings on human seexuality as repressive or controlling. We see them as edifying the relationships under which seexual expression is appropriate. If you have the capacity to open your mind far enough to conceptualize how the teaching shows the path to faithful, monogamous, disease free, properly proportioned seexuality, you might have a more balanced response to Catholics. Otherwise you take the easy way out and label us a gay hating and seexually repressed. I'm simply trying to tell you that your bigoted stereotype is ill informed so that you might be able to have a more intelligent discussion of the topic. Perhaps that's too much to expect. If so, I apologize and will look elsewhere for conversation. If nothing else I would thinnk you would want to follow Sun Tzu's advice to know thine enemy. Otherwise you are battling your perception of those you oppose and not your true opponent.

      April 24, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Here is the most concise single statement from the book which I thin captures the essence of the theme. For further elucidation, you'll have to read the manuscript.

      In Theology of the Body John Paul II relates that God is a communion of love and that we are destined to share in that exchange of love. God imprinted in our bodies and seexuality the call to participate in a "created version" of His eternal "exchange of love." God created us male and female so that we could image the love within the Trinity by becoming a sincere gift to each other. Then seexual love becomes an image of the giving and receiving love in the heart or inner life of the Trinity. This understanding of marital intimacy helps us appreciate John Paul II's view that human seexuality within marriage is far greater than one can imagine.

      April 24, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • The Demon Deacon

      Bill Deacon
      Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll ....etc.
      Why do you not get it Billy? Two thirds of the people in the world do not give a good god damn what your church or catechism states or what the supposed vicar of Christ on earth thinks. You just can not stop the proselytizing, do you get a few bucks a head for every sheep you bring in?

      April 24, 2013 at 5:46 pm |
    • ME II

      @Bill Deacon,
      "Then seexual love becomes an image of the giving and receiving love in the heart or inner life of the Trinity."

      Just out of curiosity, why didn't God make three genders?

      April 24, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
  16. William Demuth

    Same things apply to Christianity, Inner City Gangs, Cults, Biker "Clubs", and the Republican Party

    Lost people looking to belong, willing to throw their brain in a blender.

    We are better off without their ilk, the sooner they are dead the better off we all are.

    April 24, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • HeavenSent

      William, try His truth on for size. It's easy to do evil (unrighteousness) with no restraints. It takes courage and patience to do good (righteousness).

      April 24, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Bob

      William D is right on, and the 'truth' of HeavenSent's fortunately fictional sky fairy is that her Christian book of nasty has it demanding murder and other horrid acts from sheeple like her. See here, from both OT and NT:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

      April 24, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Bob, I've already answered your same post several times in another article. I suggest you read what I wrote instead of insisting that I didn't answer.

      Apostle John ("the disciple that Christ loved") said:

      1 John 2:21-23

      21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
      22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
      23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


      April 24, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • BU2B

      HS, your quotes do nothing to address Bob's post.


      April 24, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      BU2B, are you blind? Or, do you see what you want to see? I posted the answer to his same post several times in another article plus, I'm answering why he doesn't believe aka breaking the chains ... if you noticed that little diddy at the bottom of his post.. Yes, the blind leading the blind into the ditch.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Pete

      HeavenSent, all you have posted are a few meaningless lines from a meaningless book.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Pete, then you won't comprehend Psalms 53 and 19 either.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      " then you won't comprehend Psalms 53 and 19 either."

      A quite old and sometimes effective tactic – declaring that those who do not believe your story are 'fools'. Nobody wants to be considered 'dumb' for not seeing the Emperor's new clothes, or a 'bas.tard' for not seeing the Sultan's new turban, or a 'cuckold' for not being able to see the Miller's gold thumb.

      Even Joseph Smith used it when he gathered his 'witnesses' to his golden plates. He told them that only those with 'true faith' would be able to 'see' them.

      The old Middle Eastern Hebrew guys who originated those Bible stories were quite adept at manipulative mind-games.

      April 24, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Pete

      Wrong, HeavenSent, I could comprehend them. I would read them, comprehend them, and then declare them meaningless. The fact that you can read the bible and not find it useless means that you are the one that can't comprehend it.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      HS: Is the bible the word of god?? I ask because you stated that the Gospel John said something...now if those are the words of John, then the bible is not the word of god.

      April 24, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      A Frayed Knot, the Bible is His truth of life and the hereafter. Holy Men inspired by Jesus scribed His truth so men (meaning women too) would know why we are here on earth, as it is in Heaven. Jesus is the author.

      Pete. the Bible is the most fascinating book ever written. If you find it useless, that means you reaped what you sewed.

      Truth Prevails, read what I posted to A Frayed Knot

      April 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • sam

      HS – it's hard to believe you have a good wifi connection out at your trailer. Is it dialup, maybe?

      April 24, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sam, still practicing Romans 1:32 I read.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      HeavenSent seems to be back with a vengeance. So intent on spreading stupidity and division. Just like the bible. Full of nothing but hate, and stupidity.

      April 24, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      H-guest, you should read Romans 1:1-32 too.


      April 24, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest


      As I've told you before, I've read the bible back to front multiple times. It's total crap. You just enjoy posting verses because you don't have to think. It's laziness and fear that holds you to your religion.

      April 24, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
  17. trigtwit palin... America's favorite tard baby


    April 24, 2013 at 10:34 am |
  18. STFU

    What changes them? I tell you what changes them Mr Ballen; muslim parents in this country are facing the biggest problems that their kids don't become burger eating, beer drinking, pot smoking MTV kids, so they encourage their kids to attend mosques, early on, and guess what who preaches them? f king hate spewing madrasa grade anti-American mullahs, Imams.

    April 24, 2013 at 10:13 am |
    • Big Shiz

      Your a ignorant bigot.

      April 24, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • STFU

      I have never seen such a hard words for your brother Mohammad A. Dar of Pakistan aka ISLAM FOUNDATION... so who is the ignorant bigot here?

      April 24, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      big idiot

      To correct your illiterate statement "you're an ignorant bigot"
      Is english a second language for you?

      April 24, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Big Shiz

      Who the Fuk cares how I spell your. I'm not Muslim stfu. I just hate your hate mongering. That's what's wrong with people in this country,we always need someone to hate. It's the Muslims,It's the Christians,the Jews,the atheists,anyone the believes in religion,the blacks,the whites,the Latinos. People with hate in there hearts like Yall are the problem.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      People love throwing around the word hate. It is most often inappropriate.
      I have been called a hate monger for correcting horrendous english.
      I have been called a hate monger for asking questions.
      The thing I don't like is all of these religions based on ignorance. Hate is too strong a word.
      How is asking a question hate mongering?

      I do not hate. I do want to stamp out ignorance where i see it, and I see it in religion.

      April 24, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Big Shiz

      Ignorance is in anyone trying to change what people believe in. Sound familiar richard?

      April 24, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      You are even ignorant of what the word ignorant means.
      Religions are built on ignorance. People asked themselves questions they did not know the answer to. They should answer we do not know.
      Grandpa, where does lightning come from.
      well, there is someone who lives up in the clouds and when he is angry with us he throws lightning down, the sound it makes are his pets howling.

      Same type of crap continues and continues until it is in the form of the bible. I skipped a lot of step because I know you can't comprehend it.
      That is how cults start, then become religions when enough people believe, and it gains false credibility. 2000 years later and religions still hold no real answers, they only prolong ignorance. That is not to say there isn't a cetain amount of widom there as well, but no more than any work of the social sciences, no gods required. It is mans wisdom, dumbed down as they attribute it to gods.

      April 25, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
  19. Bob

    There's a sucker born every minute... and there's a sky fairy cult just waiting to reel the suckers in.

    April 24, 2013 at 10:13 am |
    • Sylvester McMonkey McBean

      No matter where you live there's some religious nut job fishing for recruits. Keep seeing the differences instead of the similarities and those who profit off conflict will continue to prosper 🙂

      April 24, 2013 at 11:50 am |
  20. Ghostriver Studios

    Reblogged this on Ghost River Studios Blog.

    April 24, 2013 at 10:00 am |
    • Rupert

      Reblogged your reblog on the Who Fucking Cares Blog!

      April 24, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.