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Mormon Church 'satisfied' with Boy Scouts possibly lifting gay youth ban
The Boy Scouts of America has been considering a change in its longstanding policy against allowing openly gay members.
April 26th, 2013
08:20 AM ET

Mormon Church 'satisfied' with Boy Scouts possibly lifting gay youth ban

By Dan Merica, CNN
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Washington (CNN) – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said it was "satisfied" with the Boy Scouts of America’s move to consider no longer denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation.

In a statement Thursday, the Mormon church called the issue “complex and challenging” and said it believed the Boy Scouts were making “a thoughtful, good-faith effort” to address the issue.

“We are grateful to BSA for their careful consideration of these issues," the statement said. “We appreciate the positive things contained in this current proposal that will help build and strengthen the moral character and leadership skills of youth as we work together in the future.”

The Boy Scouts of America said last week it would consider a proposal that would no longer deny membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation but would maintain its ban on openly gay adult leaders. The organization's executive committee made the proposal.

"If approved, the resolution would mean that 'no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.' The BSA will maintain the current membership policy for all adults," Boy Scouts public relations director Deron Smith said.

The Boy Scouts proposal was anticipated after the group had punted on the issue in February. At the time, the Mormon church heralded the postponement, saying the organization had “acted wisely in delaying a vote on this policy issue until the implications can be more carefully evaluated.”

The Mormon Church has long been a supporter of the Boy Scouts, both in numbers and words. In 2011, Mormons represented 15% of the 2.7 million registered Boy Scouts, the single biggest group.

The church teaches that sex should be reserved only for a married man and woman, and congregants in violation of the church's teaching on sexual relationships can be excommunicated. Since gay people cannot be married in the church, any sex would be premarital and therefore sinful. Under these beliefs, members of the lesbian, gay and transgender community could be practicing Mormons as long as they are celibate.

Though the church’s doctrine condemning homosexuality has not changed in the last few years, and it remains opposed to same-sex marriage, some observers say the church is subtly but unmistakably growing friendlier toward the LGBT community, including voicing support for some gay rights.

Some activists pointed to the less public role in same-sex marriage ballot initiatives in 2012, a marked departure from earlier fights - such as California's Proposition 8 in which the church vocally supported the move to have same-sex marriage banned.

A statement in support of allowing gay children to join the Boy Scouts would be another step in that softening.

“The current BSA proposal constructively addresses a number of important issues that have been part of the ongoing dialogue including consistent standards for all BSA partners, recognition that Scouting exists to serve and benefit youth rather than Scout leaders, a single standard of moral purity for youth in the program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God,” this week's Mormon statement continued.

The Boy Scouts' proposal is expected to be presented to voting members at the organization's May meeting in Dallas. If the policy is approved, it will take effect January 1.

- CNN’s Katia Hetter contributed to this report.

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Belief • Mormonism • Politics • Sexuality

soundoff (1,554 Responses)
  1. Ben

    I hear that people up in Maine actually eat lobster. Why aren't you there protesting that biblical "abomination"?

    April 27, 2013 at 9:28 am |
    • lol??

      Look it up yasef.

      April 27, 2013 at 10:42 am |
    • Science

      Cheech & Chong Read the Bible

      Cheech and Chong read the bible for all to hear.

      http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/7e64d0be37/cheech-chong-read-the-bible?rel=featured

      April 27, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • Benjamind NetYahoo

      Good example, Ben.

      April 27, 2013 at 10:57 am |
    • lol??

      Example of what?

      April 27, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • .

      Short answer Ben, is "it's a new covenant. The one that says we don't have to follow the rules of the OT anymore, even though Jesus said they still apply. Except for the kill all the gays. I LIKE that one. Yeah, I cherry pick. So?"

      April 27, 2013 at 11:13 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Ben,

      Because according to believers lobster is yummy and being gay is icky....

      April 27, 2013 at 11:20 am |
    • Bob

      ., that's bogus. Your Christian book of nasty dictates to you that you do all manner of evil and stupid things, in BOTH testaments. Some examples straight from your book of horrors, a few from each nasty testament:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • Russ

      @ Bob & Ben:
      1) Read Acts 10. you're missing some basic things about what Jesus' sacrifice did for dietary laws.

      Here's a helpful article on the silliness of this whole "shellfish" argument...
      http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363

      2) the cross makes it clear that EVERYONE deserves death. and yet Jesus was willing to die for his enemies to make them family.

      the cross says two things very clearly:
      a) we are worse off than we want to admit (he had to die)
      b) we are more loved than we ever dared hope (he was willing to die in our place)

      April 27, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you pathetic fool. The whole Jeebus sacrifice thing is a load of steaming hooey for gullible and stupid folk.

      So, Russ, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Having a bad weekend isn't much of a sacrifice.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Russ, the whole sacrifice and resurrection tale simply makes no sense to me whatsoever. An omnipotent god wouldn't require a flesh and blood son to die for anyone's "sins." There is nothing remotely reasonable about the story that a man had to die to absolve us, yet we're going to hell anyway unless we believe in him.

      I don't mind that you believe. I just can't.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha.... *gasping for breath* ahahahahahahahahaha.... oh my... *wiping away a tear of laughter*

      So, let me get this straight.... the deity made this grand sacrifice of himself to clear up.... wait, wait, wait... trying not to laugh even more here..... he sacrificed himself for dietary laws??!! Soooo.... he wanted everyone to be free and clear to murder poor lobsters for their succulent flesh, but didn't give a hoot if people still wanted to kill gays.

      That. Makes. Sense.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • .

      Aw, Bob, don't you recognize sarcasm when you see it? (Notice the correct use of "aw", 'Dictionary'.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob & Cheese: funny how fluent you assume God's self-made nature is...

      Yes, God can do anything he wants – which should make you ask: why did he want to do it that way?

      it's not that God answers to the higher categories of mercy & justice. No, he DEFINES them. so, he acts in a way that is faithful to his own self-definition. In other words, what's so incredible about the cross & resurrection is what we learn about God there. Sure, we see how messed up we are (the truth, the justice we deserve), but more importantly we learn about a God who WILL NOT compromise justice.

      compare that with the subjective notions of justice that naturalism brings: namely that justice/morality changes. in other words, the Christian God definitively states that the killing of that 8 year old child is & ALWAYS will be horrible & unjust. naturalism must look and say: "well, morality shifts. we can say it's bad today... but one day we must concede it might be considered ok. maybe the bombers were right." is anything ALWAYS wrong? according to naturalism... no. racism, pedophilia, genocide, etc. all might one day be justified by such thought.

      moreover, an evolutionary naturalist MUST concede that any notion of 'justice' & compassion is simply a foil – a tool for propagation of the gene pool. all such concepts are simply there 'because you were programmed that way' for the sake of survival. but if that's the case, what are you saying about such tragedies like Boston? what do you say to the parents? "well, i do 'identify with your suffering,' but if we're really honest... your compassion is really just a result of your instincts. love – for that matter – is just an instinct that serves species survival. if you big picture this, it's the beauty of the 'Grand Design' at work, as Hawking would say..."

      you mock that God has self-defined, unchanging traits – but you have no such response to tragedy. it's just part of the system. not good. not bad. just part of 'nature' working things out. if not, tell me on what *basis* you think that 8 year old's death was a tragedy. careful now, your metaphysical skirt is showing...

      @ Cheesemaker: we've had this discussion before. you don't have to believe in the Trinity to understand this was not merely "a bad weekend." the fracturing of an eternal (read: transcendent, outside of space & time) relationship is categorically different than 'having a bad weekend' or even a bad life, for that matter.

      @ Tom: i appreciate your honesty. but why are you the one to dictate the terms? if – as the Bible claims – we are God's creation, isn't the entire thing (existence, etc.) really only understandable in the way he/she/it presents it?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: you clearly didn't read the article. blood represents life. God is teaching us something.

      no, animal sacrifices aren't sufficient to fix how we ruined ourselves. David knew that much. something greater had to come.

      your laughter reminds me of a child at a solemn event in a new cultural setting. you find it "funny" that people don't do things your way – but the adults around recognize that there is a solemnity to these things, even if they are foreign to their understanding. why not ask questions instead of mock what you don't understand?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      An eternal being would self-identify as 'everything'. Everything means good, bad, crass, polite, ignorant, knowing. In other words, neutral.

      An eternal being would have no morality sense it would have to punish itself constantly because it would constantly be breaking its own moral code.

      Again, believers need to come to grip with what they are saying when they try to define their deity as 'eternal.'

      April 27, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      If you think I was saying a lobster should be held up as some animal sacrifice, clearly you missed what I was saying.

      My laughter reminds me of the laughter someone would use when another says something truly goofy.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you've really swallowed that Christian BULLSHIT in a big way. Look, again, the whole Jesus sacrifice story is complete bunkum. Do read, and try to comprehend for a change:

      Russ, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

      Not only that, but your book of horrors AKA the bible is severely contradicted by modern science, and the bible even contradicts itself in many places. Your whole religion is an utter farce, and you are more the fool for swallowing the steaming pile that it really is. You are a complete moron.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      If I define morality as X and then disobey that, that makes me immoral, right? So why then if your deity says killing is wrong, yet murdered the world, you try to hold it up as a paragon of virtue?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) you are still dictating terms for an eternal being. on what basis do you claim to be able to do that?

      2) yes, little kids often think new cultural experiences are 'goofy', because they lack the maturity to process them. i would expect an adult who realizes 2 billion people on the planet believe this to at least understand there is something bigger going on here – even if one disagrees with what is happening.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Russ

      Bob: there's 2000 years of scholarship to explore here – from Christians and non-Christians alike. the shallowness of your take, the broad brush with which you are painting, makes it clear that you'd rather jump on the Marshall Brain train than actually engage the content.

      yes, plenty of us Christians are idiots. but do some reading. there are intelligent responses to your shallow assessments & objections. there have been for MANY years.

      for example, check out Tim Keller's book, "Reason for God." Newsweek called him the CS Lewis of the 21st century. I expect you to balk at all of those categories, but the sign of a reasonable skeptic is to be equally skeptic of his own self-appraisals. are you willing to hear the best arguments from those with whom you disagree? if not, why?

      “In reading Chesterton, as in reading MacDonald, I did not know what I was letting myself in for. A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere — "Bibles laid open, millions of surprises," as Herbert says, "fine nets and stratagems." God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous.”
      -CS Lewis, former atheist

      April 27, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Russ ....................... about 7.2 billion humans on planet.............minus 2 billion = 5.2 billion numbers aye ?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "@ Cheesemaker: we've had this discussion before. you don't have to believe in the Trinity to understand this was not merely "a bad weekend." the fracturing of an eternal (read: transcendent, outside of space & time) relationship is categorically different than 'having a bad weekend' or even a bad life, for that matter."

      I really enjoy how it is often said ..."we can't know the mind of god"....and yet Russ, you have this completely intricate and detailed version of why this seemingly irrational and illogical myth....actually makes perfect sense. When you have to mentally contort yourself to make sense of the non-sensical nature of your god.... without a shred of proof that what you say is true.... it smacks of rationalization. Your answer makes my non-belief stronger. Even humans know that it is always best to keep things as simple as possible, the myth you are espousing is anything but simple and it just falls apart under scrutiny.

      And yes, when the creator of the universe has to die the same as anyone of his creations...and ends up ruling the universe afterwards, that IS just a bad weekend. That god couldn't possibly go through the anguish and uncertianty people go through, his "suffering" is not in the least bit impressive.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      What you are failing to grasp is that I am allowing your eternal being to be what you will not allow it to be: eternal, everything...

      I'm not trying to dictate terms to it, I'm not the one saying 'oh, it could do this or that or the other, but it can't or won't.' You are trying to dicate the terms to your eternal thing, not me. All I'm saying is that if it's everything, all the opposing forces cancel each other out and you are left with nothing. Or, rather, it would be in such opposistion with itself that it couldn't get anything done.

      2 billion leaves 5 billion who don't believe as you do. Yes, perhaps there is something bigger going on that you are unaware of.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Science: i did not say numbers make one right. but such large numbers should give one reason to pause & consider why.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Russ says: @ Tom: i appreciate your honesty. but why are you the one to dictate the terms? if – as the Bible claims – we are God's creation, isn't the entire thing (existence, etc.) really only understandable in the way he/she/it presents it?"

      I'm not "dictating" anything. I simply can't believe something that makes no sense to me. If you can suspend your disbelief, fine. I can't.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Science

      Like Damo said to faith somewhere................ to many rocks fell on your head too Russ .

      Peace

      Grains of Sand from Ancient Supernova Found in Meteorites: Supernova May Have Been the One That Triggered the Formation of the Solar System

      Apr. 19, 2013 — It's a bit like learning the secrets of the family that lived in your house in the 1800s by examining dust particles they left behind in cracks in the floorboards.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130422111246.htm

      April 27, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Cheesemaker: you said "without a shred of proof". that's where you fail to understand the Christian claims. we are not appealing to a myth. we are appealing to an historical event. it's good NEWS, not good advise (as every other religion wants to give). Jesus came. he walked the planet. it happened. even the most liberal scholars recognize Jesus was a historical figure. so the only real question is: what can we say & know?

      Check out Richard Bauckham's "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses" or NT Wright's "The Resurrection of the Son of God."
      Yes, the Trinity is preposterous as a made up concept... so why would Christianity BEGIN with monotheistic Jews shouting it to the rooftops... the last people on the planet in the 1st century who would have considered that a possibility? Christianity wouldn't have gotten off the ground if it weren't for an EVENT.

      As Yale scholar Kenneth Scott Latourette put it:
      "The more one examines the various factors which seem to account for the extraordinary victory of Christianity the more one is driven to search for a cause underlying them all. It is clear that at the very beginning of Christianity there must have occurred a vast release of energy virtually unequaled in history. Without it, the future course of the religion is inexplicable... Why this occurred may lie outside the realm in which modern historians are supposed to move."

      April 27, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Im still puzzled as to why you can dictate your terms to a deity, yet get in a bit of a tizzy when other people do this.

      Believers always dictate terms: Oh, he's all good, oh, he's perfect justice, oh, he can't stop bullets but he's all powerful, oh, prayers aren't wishes, but they are answered much like wishes. We can't know his mind but I know exactly what he is thinking in any given hour. He loves you, but he's going to burn you.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • Science

      Ancient Earth Crust Stored in Deep Mantle.........the fire pit of hell aye RUSS ?

      Apr. 24, 2013 — Scientists have long believed that lava erupted from certain oceanic volcanoes contains materials from the early Earth's crust. But decisive evidence for this phenomenon has proven elusive. New research from a team including Carnegie's Erik Hauri demonstrates that oceanic volcanic rocks contain samples of recycled crust dating back to the Archean era 2.5 billion years ago. Their work is published in Nature.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424132705.htm

      April 27, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Russ, you can posts all the quotes you want, but they're still nothing but opinion. There ere are just as many if not more people who disagree with those whose words you posted.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) on what basis are you claiming eternal entails everything? that's a pantheistic argument

      2) it IS dictating terms to say what the Objective can & can't do as a subjective agent. as one famous theologian said: "who can speak of God but God himself." The only way we can speak accurately of the Objective is if he/she/it REVEALS him/her/itself in a subjectively recognizable manner.

      3) as I said to Science: numbers don't make right – but they do make one pause to consider... something you were not doing.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Russ

      @ real Tom: some people don't believe we walked on the moon or that the Holocaust happened. Does that make those facts untrue? does saying "i can't allow for that" or "i just don't understand" make it untrue?

      Christianity is not coming to you as a philosophical concept. Jesus either did what he said & was who he said – or didn't. it's either an historical fact or isn't.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Science: you seem to assume all biblical Christians are young earth creationists. we're not.
      for those actually willing to engage the discussion...
      http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/Keller_white_paper.pdf

      and on what basis do you think the article you cited disproves a transcendent God?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Since I've met holocaust survivors and I saw the broadcast of the moon landing, Russ, I don't have to "believe" or "have faith" that they occurred. I don't see any evidence of god or the divine Jesus. If you do, great for you. I don't. I don't care if you believe or not. You're welcome to have whatever beliefs you wish. But don't bother attempting to convince me. You aren't that good at proselytizing.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: good question – why can *I* dictate terms? if accurate, it would make my argument self-refuting.

      as I said above...
      as one famous theologian said: "who can speak of God but God himself." The only way we can speak accurately of the Objective is if he/she/it REVEALS him/her/itself in a subjectively recognizable manner.

      do you understand that claim? if the Objective self-reveals (say, for example, enters time & space & speaks on His own behalf), then we do have a subjectively recognizable way to hear from the Objective. and obviously, the Objective would be the only real authority on the subject.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Science

      Have a great life RUSS

      Scientists Find Genes Linked to Human Neurological Disorders in Sea Lamprey Genome

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130224142915.htm

      Peace

      Facts work .

      April 27, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Ahhh, so now the numbers don't mean as much as you thought they did when you were trying to make your case.

      Well, golly, Russ... every believer thinks they can speak for their deity. So are they, including you, wrong in this belief?

      Ok, if your deity isn't everything, please provide it a list of things you will not allow it to be. Just be prepared to see certain other believers lovingly telling you that you are going to hell because you don't believe as they do.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Tom: as I've said two different times before now: numbers don't make right – but they should get you to pause & consider. Check it out. why do all these people seriously consider something so preposterous to your thinking? are they really just all idiots? maybe so... or maybe it's worth engaging a little more deeply to find out.

      yes, quotes do not ensure facts. so check into the facts. again, i'd encourage you to read Richard Bauckham's "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses" if you really want to dig in... or even his shorter, less scholarly work on that material "Jesus: a short introduction." Check out the scholarship. let's talk about the facts, as you proposed.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Science

      For fred and biggles...............

      Cheech & Chong Read the Bible

      Cheech and Chong read the bible for all to hear.

      http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/7e64d0be37/cheech-chong-read-the-bible?rel=featured

      April 27, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Russ, what is sufficient to constitute revelation? It seems that God leaves no traces that are clearly or incontrovertibly of God.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Russ

      @ the real Tom: so you saw the others... what about American history? or world history? if you only believe 'what you saw' firsthand, that leaves A LOT out. why do you believe in these other things? eyewitness testimony.

      there is no more well-attested ancient doc.ument than the Bible. it has exponentially MORE copies at MUCH closer dates to the source than virtually anything else in its time frame. again, that's a simple fact. but i don't think that's why you're objecting, is it? is it the mere idea of the miraculous that you discount?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      And so you dictate terms to your deity: It must exist outside of space/time, it must reveal itself to people, it must be a he.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) for the fourth time now, numbers aren't everything. but large numbers SHOULD be worthy of a pause to consider. i'd say the same about any other major religion... that's why i've studied them to some degree. but it sounds like you don't study those with whom you disagree very much...

      2) i've already told you twice that i don't dictate terms. God's self-revelation does. IF Jesus was who he said he was, his life, death & resurrection become the center of history & existence. if not, Christians are idiots. it's that simple.

      3) among the list of things God says he is not: evil, self-contradictory, changing, etc. but again: that's not MY opinion. you can read that in the Bible.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      I thought we had reached the point where numbers didn't matter, so the many copies of the bible are irrelevant. Oh, wait, if you are trying to make a point, then I guess they do matter... for now... until they don't fit with your point, then you can discard them. Carry on.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Science: here's a brief crash course for you to actually understand what the Bible is... since you're going with such scholars as Cheech & Chong...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkNa6tLWrqk

      April 27, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: why do you discount the Bible so readily? particularly the Gospel accounts? what do you make of first hand claims like found in Lk.1:1-3; 1 Cor.15:3-7; 1 Jn.1:1-3; etc.?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bob, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. Each truth that Jesus teaches has a subject, content, outcome (righteous versus unrighteous). With that now known, you own your ignorance of His truth.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Not evil? So murdering the world is a-ok?
      Not changing? Didn't we just have the good lobster/bad lobster conversation?

      And let's not forget, this is not the deity speaking, it's people speaking for the deity. Dictating their terms on how the deity is supposed to be *shrug* can't get away from that, Russ.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) again, i'm not dictating terms. God has given them. It's his Word. you don't have to hear from me. it's in the Bible.

      2) again with the broad brush. i didn't say it's an EITHER/OR on numbers. they are not complete proof in & of themselves (depending on the discussion: 2+2=4 is rather incontrovertible)... but they do warrant a closer look.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you have lots of the standard lines to dump on us but we've been through all this before. Since you can't present evidence, stop being such a blowhard. I say, enough is enough. Put up or shut up.

      The mountains of evidence incontrovertibly show your religious beliefs to be sheer bunkum, and the claimed characteristics for your god really are total bullshit. It really is time to just toss them. Into the dustbin of history, as they say, just like so many other sky fairy stories of the past.

      Do the world a favor and learn about science and specifically about evolution, and put aside your pathetic delusions. It really is high time.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      The Gospels you mention, Russ, shouldn't be discounted. They are refined works centuries in the making. They have a lot to say about what many people would like to be true about their God. They therefore have a lot to say about what people are like.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: you aren't reading the things I'm giving you. even just the brief article all this started with...

      1) not evil. just.
      as I said: the cross says EVERYONE deserves death. EVERYONE. life after telling the One who made us "screw you" is nothing short of gracious on his part.

      2) unchanging: his character. time is changing. we do different things. i love my children – but i don't react the same way to every thing they do. reaching up for a hug requires a different response than reaching to put your finger in a light socket. i will respond differently. but that's where the analogy ends... b/c i DO change. but God does not.

      your objection assumes that for over 3000 years, no one of the faith has noticed that. and yet God has been saying that for that long (according to the Bible: Num.19:23; Heb.13:8; etc.). again, if you're willing to entertain the notions deeper than looking for a surface level reason to dismiss the faith, there are long-standing answers.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      3) sorry – forgot your last comment above... people talking, not God.
      that's not the Bible's self-understanding.
      "thankful you received our words not merely as the words of men, but as they really are, the words of God" (1 Thess.2:13)
      "prophets spoke carried along by the Holy Spirit...." (2 Pet.1:21)
      there's more of that. Jesus himself quotes passages from 1000 years before and applies them to himself. read Psalm 22, for example. a rather clear description of Christ... written 1000 years before. are you claiming that was... just human insight?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      At any rate, the Bible is insufficient. If there is a God concerned with its relationship with us, its existence should be plain. Most unbelievers dispute that God exists rather than oppose God. An actual omnibenevolent God would have a world of followers simply because it is good, if only it were known to exist.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • Science

      Numbers and DNA work RUSS !

      Was the bible around back then ?

      Human Y Chromosome Much Older Than Previously Thought

      Mar. 4, 2013 — The discovery and analysis of an extremely rare African American Y chromosome pushes back the time of the most recent common ancestor for the Y chromosome lineage tree to 338,000 years ago. This time predates the age of the oldest known anatomically modern human fossils.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305145821.htm

      No god(s) needed or required to graduate from public schools in the US

      Remember : Adam had to POKE himself hard with his OWN BONE to create Eve.

      No god(s) needed................... Old. DNA works..................also catches crooks !

      Ancient DNA Reveals Europe's Dynamic Genetic History

      Apr. 23, 2013 — Ancient DNA recovered from a series of skeletons in central Germany up to 7,500 years old has been used to reconstruct the first detailed genetic history of modern Europe.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423134037.htm

      April 27, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: i gave you evidence. i gave you 1700 pages of scholarly evidence that is currently pressing on the fields of biblical scholarship (Christian & non alike). you come back with the same Marshall Brain links.

      seriously, i've watched Marshall Brain's videos. they don't really deal with the historic evidence. he's attempting to engage a theological discussion – yet he doesn't even engage the prevailing ATHEIST biblical scholars. he doesn't engage the scholarship at all.

      if you want to talk evidences, engage the scholarship. seriously, how long will it take you to look up some critical reviews on the books I gave you? at least then you'd be engaging the scholarly evidences... and not just shouting the same thing over again.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: "the bible is insufficient" according to what standard? it sounds a lot like you are dictating terms, similar to what Damocles has done in a more shallow way.

      let's go deeper. on what basis are you trusting the nature of your existence / access to objective reality... if there is such a thing? or to put it bluntly: where are you placing your faith/trust ultimately? your faculties of observation? a trust in logic as a skeptic?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • mama k

      I am in agreement with TTTOO, especially in consideration of Russ' "first hand claims" claim.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Oh, so the people that wrote the bible say in the bible that the bible is true. Shocker.

      Ahh, now you are taking topher's approach that murder by deity is justice.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Science: your criticism shows you are not hearing what I'm presenting. no, the Bible wasn't around millions of years ago. does that in any way discount it? no.

      again, the claim is not that the Bible IS God, but that the Bible is God's self-revelation. He created everything. he stands outside space & time ("I Am", we are becoming, etc.). He entered space & time in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. it's an historical fact. Christianity is not giving you a set of ethics to live out or rules to do; it comes to you not as advice... but as NEWS. God is, he came, what he did is what saves.

      for your argument to work, God would have to be from *within* his creation and only appearing later. that fails to understand the claim of transcendence. but that makes sense since your view of existence appears to be naturalism – you are self-projecting.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I know that the Bible was compiled and written by people. I know that it could have come into being exactly as it is if God does not exist – there are no implications regarding the existence of God associated with it.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Russ

      @ mama k: at least you are hearing the distinctive. everything rides on the question of the eyewitness accounts.

      if you really want to engage the scholarship, read Richard Bauckham's books. there are others before, but it's the best recent summary of the data & scholarship. these are firsthand accounts. don't just say "i don't think they could be..." engage the scholarship.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) any subjective agent has a circular point of departure in regard to objective reality... at least until you ENCOUNTER the Objective firsthand.

      what is shocking is your lack of self-awareness. you are equally susceptible to that criticism.

      2) murder is the *wrongful* taking of someone's life. who has the authority to do that? it's inherent to the word... the Author.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Science

      Not Me I do not need saving Russ !

      Peace

      April 27, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      So let's say people have been around for exactly 1M years and your deity decided to reveal itself exactly 6000 years ago. That's a way long time for the deity to just let people run around willy-nilly with no rules and regulations to follow. Was he busy? But, we are talking about a being that is out of space/time and wouldn't have these concepts so why bother anyway? One day, an eternity, it's all the same, right?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO:
      1) so you assume finding sociological means precludes an overarching metaphysical agency as well? that's like the History Channel trying to figure out how the 'Reed Sea' might actually have parted by just natural means. it still invites the questions about timing & uniqueness. at some point, it begins to be far-fetched in light of the necessary 'coincidences' presented in the narrative.

      2) the Bible WOULD NOT have come to us if the original hearers didn't believe this. you're not interacting with the claims of Lk.1 or 1 Jn.1 or 1 Cor.15. here are eyewitness statements within the lifetime of those who walked with Jesus. they are giving testimony & naming names in a society where correspondence & travel made checking the sources a readily available possibility. to claim they were somehow more gullible back then is ethnocentric & historically inaccurate.

      no, the harder thing to explain is how the same Hellenistic culture that gave us such intelligence as Plato & Aristotle and conquered the known world was itself overtaken within 250 years – WITHOUT cultural prominence or military force. it's the reason Kenneth Scott Latourette's quote above pushes on us... what explanation do you have for the rapid rise of Christianity *wthin the lifetime* of eyewitnesses & right after if these claims have no basis? why did Christianity get off the ground if – unlike many other religions – it is based on an historical claim (& not merely a set of ethics for 'being good'/earning favor with the deity)?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      And you have had your close encounter of the deific kind, right?

      Let's put an arbitrary number on the population of the earth at the time of the supposed flood: 50M. You are sure that all 50M save eight deserved to die?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: again you want to dictate terms. do you understand the problem with that?

      the question is not whether or not you *like* how God did it. the question is: did he really do that?
      if the resurrection happened, it doesn't matter if you *like* it. you've got to deal with the historical reality of it.
      if it didn't, Christians are fools, and should be pushed to the margins of society.
      so the only question that really matters here: did it happen?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • mama k

      "here are eyewitness statements within the lifetime of those who walked with Jesus"

      And exactly who wrote such statements? Is there unanimous agreement among scholars, Russ?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: no, that's not what i'm saying. ALL of them deserved to die.
      the cross tells us WE ALL do.

      you're hearing the claims of Christianity through other religions.
      Rom.3 says pointblank: there are NO GOOD PEOPLE. we all deserve death.
      God gives grace – common grace in being alive at all. saving grace in what Jesus did: dying in our place.

      no, the 8 on the ark deserved death as much as any outside.
      what's amazing is that the one man to ever walk the planet & not deserve to die, instead gladly took my place...
      not because i deserved it – but the exact opposite. i didn't. it's unfathomable love.
      God saves his enemies. i am a totally loved moral failure.
      that's grace.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Perhaps you can point out where I have dictated terms.

      And you dodged my question. If you believe the flood happened and wiped out the earth, how sure are you that all those people deserved to die?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • mama k

      Excuse me, Russ – for my question: authored, not wrote, otherwise one of the uneducated trolls like Salero21 here will chime in and say "a scribe, dummy".

      April 27, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Russ: "... what explanation do you have for the rapid rise of Christianity *wthin the lifetime* of eyewitnesses & right after if these claims have no basis? why did Christianity get off the ground"

      I don't dispute that Christianity got its start within the time frame you are referring to, but I wonder how much like your religion it was when those eyewitnesses were alive. What did those people believe?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • Russ

      @ mama k: good question.
      read 1 Cor.15:3-7. Paul is claiming Jesus appeared to all those people – referring to them largely BY NAME, and even claiming that he appeared to over 500 people at once.

      there is virtually unanimity that Paul is writing that within 15-20 years of Jesus' death. some might have died, but PLENTY would still be alive. you could go & check it out. especially the 500. "and were you there? did you see what he saw?"

      again, Christianity doesn't get off the ground if these claims have no basis.
      Over & over again the eyewitnesses say it: we were there. we saw. we touched. we heard.
      they all gave their lives for it. who willingly dies for a lie *you yourself* made up?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      So, if tyrants claim that they want to be closer to your deity and murder those they know deserve it, you have no problem with that, right? Excuse me, not murder, bring justice to.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles:
      1) you are still objecting to what God can & can't do ("murder", etc.). I'd press you to talk about the resurrection. It's certainly more at the heart of the matter – and a much more preposterous claim if you want to take a jab.

      2) i did answer your question. Rom.3 says ALL. it's quoting the OT. if you respond "but the flood is before those OT quotes," consider Gen.3: the Fall. EVERYONE deserved death as a result of the Fall. it's like a lamp willingly unplugging itself from its source of power. only God's benevolence doesn't wipe everyone out immediately.

      as i said before: the cross makes it clear...
      1) we are worse off than we want to admit (he had to die)
      2) we are more loved than we ever dared hope (he was willing to do it for us)

      April 27, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Another thing.... if you told your kid he or she was a good for nothing, lying sack of crap that didn't deserve to live, would you be shocked that people came down a bit hard on you?

      Accidentally posted this at the top. Carry on.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Two things:

      You called it murder, congrats.
      The fall could have easily been prevented, yet for some reason was allowed. Why?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: glad you see the historical progress of events.
      per your question about doctrine: even if you only allow the earliest books of the Bible by the most skeptical scholars views, the central teachings of Christianity are all intact.

      for example, Philippians 2 is a brief hymn Paul cites (think about it: pre-existing & known for him to cite it). and even among the latest dates, Philippians is within 30 years of Jesus' death. again, plenty of eyewitnesses alive to say: yes or no, that did or didn't happen.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • mama k

      Yes, Russ – I was really after the specific authors of John and Luke. Of course there has always been considerable controversy regarding the authorship of the gospels. And for Paul, he writes about claims of others for things he didn't witness, right? Do we have any of the accounts of the 500 in writings by named people to compare against what Paul was claiming?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: tyrants... now we're talking! you're accurately pressing what I'm saying.

      1) God's character is the issue. are we being faithful to God's character?

      God says we are not to murder. God does not act wrongfully – by definition. a tyrant, however, does err. and wrongfully taking life is not acceptable.

      what would be rightful? we get a hint in Rom.13: submit to the governing authorities... God has placed them (hard for my Obama-hating friends)... and he doesn't bear the sword for anything.

      a counterbalance exists thought: "we must obey God, not men" (Acts 5:29). we obey the governing authorities as long as they are not asking us to go against God.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      So, short answer is no, you wouldn't have a problem with a tyrant murdering as long as he could justify it to suit your needs. Afterall, how could you ever be certain one way or another that a deity didn't visit the tyrant in the night and tell him or her to murder. Sorry again, not murder, bring justice.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • Russ

      @ mama k:
      1) as much as John has been maligned by some who assume a more theologically rich presentation of events had to be a later date (as was prevalent scholarly thought for the last century or so), John clearly has firsthand knowledge of a pre-temple raising Jerusalem (AD 70). he cites the pool of Bethesda (Jn.5) and accurately describes it. something mocked until recently discovered & found just as he said it.

      then there's the new field of statistical analysis. only in the last decade have we had the ability to test the accuracy of name usage according to region. that's something that could not be fabricated by a later writer with no knowledge or exposure to the time & place. in all instances, the Gospel accounts pass with flying colors.
      [in case you want to go deeper in that new field, check out the video here...]
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5Ylt1pBMm8

      2) Luke was a companion of Paul, who readily interacted with multiple of the firsthand witnesses. Luke likely spent several years in Jerusalem as Paul's scribe while Paul was in jail (according to Acts). considering Luke's opening (Lk.1:1-3), it's hard to regard his accounts & their accuracy as anything else.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: no, exactly wrong. did you not hear the qualifiers, namely Acts 5:29?

      the definition of tyrant itself makes one objectionable according to biblical standards.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • mama k

      Yes, I've seen that video, Russ. I think it does make some good points against those thinking of an alternate gospel story taking place somewhere else – in northern Africa perhaps. But weren't there other theories about plagiarism at the time, not involving another location for which the early apologists like Justin Martyr still only cried diabolical mimicry? Still, aside from dispelling that notion, there is still the question of who actually authored these texts – still debated today.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • mama k

      And I understand about Luke, Russ. I can't help but think of Paul and Luke as the [ Joseph Smith & family & trusted servants ] of those times.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • Bob

      No, Russ, now you are being plainly dishonest. You have not presented one shred of verifiable evidence for your pathetic sky fairy tales. Either do so or just stop your incessant lying and your circular references. Put up the evidence or shove off. Enough already. Really.

      It's shocking the lengths that you will go to to try to sustain your silly Christian pyramid scheme, but I suppose that is how you lot have sustained your disgusting blood cult for so long.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • Damocles

      @russ

      Ok, so a two-bit tyrant, or government official comes up to you and says he or she has been ordained by the deity to rule as they see fit. Now, your Rom quote makes it clear that your deity has placed him or her in charge, why I bet that he or she will trumpet that claim the whole time they are in office. Your argument against him or her bringing justice, I mean murder, to those of other nations would be.... what, exactly?

      April 27, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • Russ

      @ mama k: there will always be those willing to debate the facts on any topic so broad sweeping in its affects. let's have the intellectual integrity to note there is no such thing as a neutral perspective here. i believe it was author Anne Rice who pointed out she'd never seen a field where there were scholars who hated their own subject matter. as if anyone would go into Shakespearean studies hating the field... point being, there is so much more at stake here. the debate will rage on.

      however, the facts are potent. the new statistical analysis alone presses out any consideration that these Gospels were (as some, like Bart Ehrman, have claimed) far removed from the source. that changes the discussion from redaction criticism to final form – from "these parts can't be right" to "what is it claiming?"

      as for Justin Martyr, late in his life parallels exactly when the 'second generation' heresies/copycats (like Gnosticism) began to arise. i think even the latest dates for the NT books places them all written by AD 120 (a date with which i'd personally disagree). but Justin Martyr lived to see Christianity's explosive growth lead to copycats – regardless what one makes of his diagnosis of *why* those arose. the copycats clearly have a later date. the biblical accounts do not.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I do not know if the content of Philippians, particularly 2:5-11, evolved along with the Christian religion. Neither do you, Russ. The earliest manuscripts of writings anyone attributes to Paul are 2nd century.

      But Paul is an interesting choice: not an eyewitness of any part of Jesus' life, he had the most influence over the early development of Christianity I would say.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: since you are clearly not willing to look up these things yourself, here's a brief article on NT scholarship and the available texts. a quick perusal (90 seconds) will be eye-opening.

      http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2012/03/21/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/

      April 27, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: Rom.3 equally calls them to justice. to appeal to that to kill someone else fails to see their own need for grace. and furthermore, it ignores the REST of Romans, in which Christ is presented as the Savior & Lord.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: you are mistaken on your Pauline scholarship. Virtually no one disputes it is both authentic & therefore clearly before AD 64 (roughly Paul's date of death). Moreover, almost all place it in the early 50s. even wikipedia can tell you that...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians

      April 27, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: it's a similar story with Philippians. probably one of Paul's last letters, but again not doubted – and easily within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
    • Damocles

      So no real argument aside from 'golly, that's not what I see when I read the bible.'

      April 27, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: YOU posed the question in which the tyrant appealed to the Bible as authoritative.
      YOU asked what biblical response there was. I gave one, answering your request.
      then YOU object that the bible is not authoritative? it was YOUR premise.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      We may not be talking about the same thing, Russ. What Paul thought and wrote, not what is in even the earliest manuscripts and certainly not what wound up in your Bible. I believe the earliest fragments of Philippians are 4th century. Do you know that it is just as Paul wrote it?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. You and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: and BTW, that's not a hypothetical. it happened.
      look up the German Confessing Church – one of the few groups that openly stood against Hitler.
      Dietrich Bonheoffer & Karl Barth are examples (though they took different paths in responding).

      April 27, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: i'll give you the same overview article on text criticism. it's clear you are assuming things that are not the case.
      http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2012/03/21/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/

      per Philippians the Philippians passage itself, here's Gordon Fee on Php.2:5-11, one of the leading scholars in the world on Philippians. he notes it is clearly Pauline & accurate.
      http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/bbr/philippians_fee.pdf

      April 27, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: i've given you both entire scholarly books as well as links to articles. i've encouraged you to (of your own accord) look up critical reviews of said resources. there is 2000 years of scholarship to peruse... but instead of taking any of those avenues, you want me to recount thousands upon thousands of pages on this blog?

      i've given you the resources. it's clear you won't believe me no matter what i say. i'm not going to take hours to prepare an essay for you to throw it aside as "not scholarship" if i did – despite the fact that i've pointed you to the scholars in the field.

      stop parroting Marshall Brain & go read – even go read the critics of the stuff i've given you. the conversation won't go forward until you've got something other to say than just "but Marshall Brain says."

      April 27, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "@ the real Tom: so you saw the others... what about American history? or world history? if you only believe 'what you saw' firsthand, that leaves A LOT out. why do you believe in these other things? eyewitness testimony.

      there is no more well-attested ancient doc.ument than the Bible. it has exponentially MORE copies at MUCH closer dates to the source than virtually anything else in its time frame. again, that's a simple fact. but i don't think that's why you're objecting, is it? is it the mere idea of the miraculous that you discount?"

      You have no idea whether the bible is accurate or not, Russ. If you believe it is, great for you. I don't believe that Jesus was divine or that he performed miracles. I don't really care how many people believe it.

      You seem to think that you can "reason" me into having faith and believing something I find absurd. I cannot force myself to believe, Russ, no matter how many others do, unless there's more substance than you have thus far provided.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "stop parroting Marshall Brain". Why? You're parroting those who support your beliefs, Russ.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • Russ

      @ the real Tom: you're right – i cannot "reason" you into my faith. but i can make reasonable replies to unfounded or inaccurate assertions.

      1) you clearly didn't read the link i gave you. again, look at the *evidence.*
      http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2012/03/21/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/

      2) Marshall Brain is not a biblical scholar. he runs a TV show & a website.
      ironically for you, there ARE scholars with whom you might agree. but you don't seem to know that.
      that's my point; go deeper. if you're going to be 'reasonable' as you seem to want to be... check out the evidence.

      in other words: parroting scholars is good scholarship. parroting TV show hosts is not.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • The real Tom

      I know there are plenty of scholars with whom I agree, Russ. Why would I bother to cite them for you? It's a waste of my time. I'd rather ride my bike in the sunshine than sit here and read your posts.

      I don't believe in your god. I don't need to defend my lack of faith or belief. I don't need to look at "evidence" of the sort you are talking about, because if it were compelling, everyone would believe it. There are just as many people who don't as there are who do.

      I'm just not that interested in arguing with you about pinheads and angels, particularly with someone who is bearing more and more of a resemblance to Chad.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Then does Mr. Fee know what Paul thought and wrote? Can Mr. Fee conclude from it in a way that he could not conclude if God did not exist that God does exist? I don't think he has what he needs, or would even if he had Paul's original letters. Mr. Fee (and you and I) don't have the privileged position in time of Paul, or of an eyewitness of the events of Jesus' life, that made it possible for them to know that God exists if what they experienced was sufficient for that.

      Thanks for the reference, BTW. I did read it.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Russ

      @ the real Tom: sounds a lot less like thoughtful reflection & a lot more like oversimplification...

      at no point did i talk about angels dancing on a pinhead. that's immaterial.
      if Christ rose from the dead – a historical event of God declaring himself, his intent, & the nature of our existence – have the integrity to recognize that has much broader implications.

      many people disbelieve the facts on many different things. but if something's a fact, does not believing in it make it unfactual?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: then now we are no longer talking about scholarship (which readily supports what I've been claiming), but rather your willingness to believe the content of those claims. that's a different matter than historical veracity, isn't it?

      do you discount the miraculous at the outset? if so, why?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Russ

      Discount the miraculous? Yes. Primarily because the only example of the existence of the miraculous is entirely textual. Stories. No modern day equivalent exists. No video, no scenes or locations with evidence to be examined.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Russ, I think "the miraculous", miracles, should be defined as impossible events. Wildly improbable things do happen that don't point to the existence of God, so only impossible will do. In general, it is proper to discount impossible things at the outset.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Russ says: many people disbelieve the facts on many different things. but if something's a fact, does not believing in it make it unfactual?

      And many people believing something doesn't make it factual.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "do you discount the miraculous at the outset? if so, why?"

      What do you think const itutes "miraculous", Russ?

      April 27, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "the real Tom: sounds a lot less like thoughtful reflection & a lot more like oversimplification.."

      And what you call "thoughtful reflection" is what amounts to mulling over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, Russ.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:45 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: as I said to you on the other thread...
      copying & repasting an unsubstantiated argument doesn't suddenly make it a good one.

      April 28, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Atheist Steve & TTTOO:
      to discount the miraculous at the outset is not a philosophical commitment, not a scientific one.

      first, the miraculous: David Hume's version of this popularized it – and has been repeatedly debunked. if you discount something at the outset, your purposefully filter out any data to the contrary. stating the improbable is impossible is not based on evidence, but presuppositions.

      second (& as an example), in light of the last 30 years of science (particularly chaos theory & quantum physics), discounting something because it is highly improbable would mean completely dismissing those fields of study. do you equally disregard chaos theory & quantum physics? ironically, Stephen Hawking's entire argument for "something out of nothing" in "Grand Design" DEPENDS on the improbable happening.

      So: do you discount chaos theory & quantum physics? if so, on what basis? if not, why allow the improbable there & not elsewhere?

      April 28, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Russ

      @ the real Tom:

      1) I didn't claim that numbers make something a fact... but it should make one pause to more closely examine.

      2) the resurrection: now you are purposefully misrepresenting me. i already answered that objection when you raised it before. obviously the number of angels on a pin (something YOU brought up, not me) has much less implications than a man claiming to be God then rising from the dead & calling all of humanity to follow him.

      the former is merely ethereal speculation without any real command over your life. the second one demands a response – whether mockery or complete surrender.

      April 28, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Russ, I did say impossible, not improbable. Misreading and then misrepresenting what someone says is on the order of what your bush league colleagues do. I've read a fair bit of your stuff, I know you have more on the ball than that.

      April 28, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you get an award for the biggest wimp out of the day, you despiicable coward. Again, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods and false claims. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 28, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: I appreciate the back-handed compliment...

      Nonetheless, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. on what basis do you distinguish miracles as not merely improbable yet utterly impossible? i think you may be putting yourself in the same conundrum as so-called *strong atheism* (namely, making a claim that requires omniscience).

      April 29, 2013 at 8:14 am |
    • Bob

      Russ, you get an award for the biggest wimp out of the day, you despicable coward. Again, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods and false claims already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up, coward.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 29, 2013 at 9:55 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I said miracles should be by definition impossible. I alluded to the reason: the improbable occurs all by itself, no gods required. If God transcends natural laws, or even reality, then if miracles are to be taken as traces of God's activity they should reflect that transcendence.

      April 29, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: so your reasoning for deeming the miraculous impossible is because you think miracles are 'unnatural' (I recognize you didn't use that term, and i want to accurately represent you, but i think that's what you're saying)? doesn't that just press the discussion back a level to what defines natural?

      for a naturalist, that's a given (the exclusion of the divine). but for a theist, that's NOT a given. as a matter of fact, a theist (in most forms) considers ALL of nature (physics, science, etc.) as manifestations of God's *ongoing* upholding of existence. as such, the miraculous is simply God choosing to operate by different means than his own norm.

      i know the latter may sound preposterous to a naturalist, but i'm not asking you to agree with it – but rather to see that the philosophical discussion is what dictates a definition of 'nature/natural'. in other words, the "given" to which you are appealing is NOT such a given in this discussion in which we debating *that very thing.*

      without understanding that distinction, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy – because your answer is dictated at the outset by your presuppositions (when the presuppositions *are* the center of this discussion).

      April 29, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you pathetic fool. The whole Jeebus sacrifice thing is a load of steaming hooey for gullible and stupid folk. Grow some courage and start accepting that obvious point, or just shove off, you coward.

      So, Russ, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 30, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
  2. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things.

    April 27, 2013 at 5:39 am |
    • biggles

      I love dodo

      April 27, 2013 at 6:25 am |
    • Science

      Morning biggles evolution changes things ........... not prayer !

      April 27, 2013 at 7:17 am |
    • Science

      For what...................... ? Make sure to read what the pope said !

      Where do morals come from?

      By Kelly Murray, CNN

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/

      Learning is fun with facts.......................... and facts work when teaching children.

      Atheist Prof. Peter Higgs: Stop calling Higgs boson the ‘God particle’

      Professor Peter Higgs said recently that there is no God and so people should stop referring to the theoretical partial that
      bears his name as the “God particle.”

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/08/atheist-prof-peter-higgs-stop-calling-higgs-bosen-the-god-particle/

      Pope praises science, but insists God created world updated Thur October 28, 2010
      Stephen Hawking is wrong, Pope Benedict XVI said Thursday – God did create the universe. The pope didn't actually mention the world-famous scientist, who argues in a book published last month that the laws of physics show there is no need for a supreme... \

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/28/pope-praises-science-but-insists-god-created-world/

      Science

      Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says updated Tue May 17, 2011
      By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen Hawking said in a newspaper interview this week. "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when...

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/17/heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-hawking-says/

      April 7th, 2012

      08:32 PM ET

      The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/07/the-jesus-debate-man-vs-myth/comment-page-137/#comment-2281915

      Make sure to read comments

      April 18, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Report abuse |

      Breaking News

      NASA: Three planets found are some of best candidates so far for habitable worlds outside our solar system.

      http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/planet-discovery/index.html

      April 27, 2013 at 7:48 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      actions cause change; prayer wastes valuable time.

      instead of hoping for people to have a better life, which is all that prayer is, you should go out and make it happen. go out and actually help people. this requires actions, not prayers...

      April 27, 2013 at 8:13 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded.

      April 27, 2013 at 10:20 am |
  3. Trance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKxk9TvyJrs
    ,

    April 27, 2013 at 4:58 am |
  4. Lou

    A great era for gay dudes recruiting the young stuff.

    April 27, 2013 at 3:09 am |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Recruiting? That would imply that being gay is a choice, which it isn't, so there is no recruiting involved.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:55 am |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Actually...Lou

      The openly gay people ..id say 99.9999% of them, you could leave your kids with without worrying that they ll be preyed upon.

      The predators are a COMPLTELEY different animal....and chances are they are already where they can get at your kids and you ll never know it.

      April 27, 2013 at 7:06 am |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      *completely*

      April 27, 2013 at 7:08 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      sounds like you're biting, Lou!

      April 27, 2013 at 8:14 am |
  5. Bob1god

    Since when, does the Moron church have a seat at the table!

    April 27, 2013 at 2:29 am |
  6. lol??

    "Born gay." The idea that hom*)se*xuality is genetic, or at least biologically predetermined and unchangeable, has received a great amount of media coverage presenting it as "new scientific fact." What is often not known is that this "born gay" idea is not new, not proven, and frequently contradicted by what the researchers actually said. At least as far back as 1899, German researcher Magnus Hirschfeld regarded hom0se*xuality as congenital – meaning, "born that way" – and he asked for legal equality based on this thinking.

    April 27, 2013 at 1:37 am |
    • .

      Thanks for proving the point that they are born that way!!
      And it HAS been proven! Yay equality!

      April 27, 2013 at 2:24 am |
    • lol??

      Proof? I see dude, the same type of proof that there ain't an "I AM". You are quite the thinker.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:59 am |
    • HateIsNOTaFamilyValue

      H o m o s e x u a l i t y is considered a normal and unchangeable part of human s e x u a l i t y by the following medical and mental health associations: The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the Canadian Psychological Association, and the National Association of Social Workers.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:52 am |
  7. Where is your God now?

    Your husband takes you to the company Christmas party. You have long been jealous of his very attractive co-worker Genevieve, and your jealous imagination suspects there is a spark between them. You dress to the nines and look great. The moment comes to say hello to her. She is beautiful, charming and smells intoxicating. You break a heal just as you reach to shake her hand. You spill your drink on both Genevieve and your husband. They look at each other and giggle, holding the gaze a bit too long.

    April 27, 2013 at 1:21 am |
    • Dippy's sub

      It's "heel." Not "heal."

      April 27, 2013 at 11:20 am |
  8. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Ken, you're not different. You are a plain ol' dirtball dustball. You inherited dirt.

    What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?..

    April 27, 2013 at 12:30 am |
    • midwest rail

      It's always gratifying to watch lol?? hallucinate in public.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:14 am |
  9. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    "Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

    When women rule over the men, they kill the children and let allah take over. He'll make em wear a veil fer sure...

    April 27, 2013 at 12:29 am |
    • mama k

      Wow – this is like a collection of lol??'s "Best Of", I guess. He should write them all down in a book and then eat the book so as to make some kind of fuel from it.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:54 am |
  10. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Well.akira, ya saw what they did with keynesian bankin' and barney franksterism housing. Enjoy chewin' on inflation...

    April 27, 2013 at 12:26 am |
  11. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Send the loudmouth gays to a bath house so they can clean up...

    April 27, 2013 at 12:24 am |
  12. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Mormons house their wives separately so they don't sync up...

    April 27, 2013 at 12:22 am |
  13. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Put a whole lotta women together in a convent and their lunar cycles will sync. They only need a chasti*ty belt 25% of the time..

    April 27, 2013 at 12:20 am |
  14. lol??

    Why don't the Qweirdos just create their own church and scout org? Who's stoppin' em?

    April 27, 2013 at 12:18 am |
    • The real Tom

      Why don't African Americans just have their own schools? Their own scouts? Who's stopping them?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:21 am |
  15. Reality

    Why we should not care what Mormons think about any subject:

    Bottom line: Mormonism is a business/employment/investment cult using a taxing i.e. t-ithing "religion" as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business. And the accounting books are closed to all but the prophet/"profit" and his all-male hierarchy.

    Tis a great business model i.e. charge your Mormon employees/stock holders a fee/t-ithe and invest it in ranches, insurance companies, canneries, gaudy temples, a great choir and mission-matured BYU football and basketball teams.

    And all going back to one of the great cons of all times i.e. the Moroni revelations to Joseph Smith analogous to mythical Gabriel's revelations to the hallucinating Mohammed !!!

    April 27, 2013 at 12:03 am |
    • The real Tom

      Why we should care what Reality posts about a subject:

      April 27, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • Reality

      See p. 2 for added details about the assets and workings of the Mormon business cult.

      April 27, 2013 at 7:31 am |
    • The real Tom

      Number of people actually going to p. 2 to read Reality's interminable spew: 0

      April 27, 2013 at 11:21 am |
  16. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Inheritance is an alien concept to Qweirdos and Socies.

    April 26, 2013 at 5:36 pm They just like to squirt..

    April 26, 2013 at 11:52 pm |
    • mama k

      Well aren't you the popular one.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • Akira

      Yeah, those lesbians are "squirting" all over the place. Yeesh.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:09 am |
  17. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Qweirdos delete the next generation..

    April 26, 2013 at 11:51 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Wish someone would delete you. It would be a favor to us all.

      Meanwhile, people continue to be born gay. See if you can figure out how that occurs, idjit.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
  18. lol??

    lol??
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Gays don't care about the next generation. Send the fairy boyz to the girls scouts. Problem solved and mommie approved. Worked for the catholics..

    April 26, 2013 at 11:49 pm |
  19. The real Tom

    The real reason LionlyLoser is so h0mophobic is that he is afraid of his own predilections. He knows he likes men. He's terrified of the fact. He claims he's "resolutely hetero" because the only way he can manage not to act on his desires is by pretending he doesn't have them.

    April 26, 2013 at 11:31 pm |
    • Austin

      I had a dream that there were demons that were dressed in drag and they were standing there hurling insults at people . They have a powerfully vicious mentality.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:37 pm |
    • The real Tom

      You had a dream? No! You're kidding? REALLY? Gosh, I don't know ANYONE who has EVER had a dream! What an exceptional person you must be.

      Why haven't you told anyone about your recent dreams, you little dick?

      April 26, 2013 at 11:40 pm |
    • Akira

      Gay people are not possessed by demons; they are born that way.
      I had a dream that one day everyone would be accepted for who they are instead of their gender preference, and that bigots would go the way of dinosaurs. I hope my dream was a "revalation."

      April 26, 2013 at 11:41 pm |
    • Austin

      Do you understand what demonic oppression is?

      April 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Yes, Austin. You've given us all an example of one by posting your idiocy.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • Akira

      Do you not get that they are BORN that way, Austin? That science and neurological study has PROVEN it? Do you honestly believe that demons attached themselves to a baby as soon as s/he slid out of the birth canal? Seriously?

      Oh, my. I have read that people trying to get over an addiction will, in turn, get addicted to religion and go just as overboard with it, but really, this is beyond the pale.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:46 pm |
    • mama k

      LOL. Oh I just sat down and read about Austin's dream and nearly blew a mouthful of soda on the monitor. I think some kind of bugs are crawling in Austin's ears at night and chewing up what brain he has left.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:48 pm |
    • The real Tom

      I think you nailed it, mama k.

      Austin's mommy must have to wash his sheets daily with those wet dreams of his.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:51 pm |
    • Austin

      No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

      We all have a trial given to us by which we can utilize resurrection power and freedom, a promise, or by which we reject God and choose rebellion. H.omo fornication is a s.exual sin. Nothing more, nothing less. Immorality is a serious sin. The entire book of revelation harps in immorality.

      rev 3:21

      To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:59 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, bullish!t, Austin.

      When are you going to stop your stalling and post one of your dreams so we can see it "come true", you delirious wad of goo?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • Austin

      You lefties have a club hobby, the unbelief hobby, and youn like to say " they were born that way". And you are doing yourself and others harm by this unbelief.

      Resurrection power and freedom is a promise and fact. You are commanded to rent. Immorality is a serious habitual lifestyle.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • Austin

      I'll let you all know when I have what I think is a vision. Tell James randi I'm ready.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:04 am |
    • The real Tom

      "You are commanded to rent."

      I am? Nay, I was commanded by the tax gods to buy, Austin. Sorry about your lot in life.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:05 am |
    • The real Tom

      "I'll let you all know when I have what I think is a vision."

      Yeah. Like one of an ABOVE GROUND POOL. That was SURELY a "vision."

      April 27, 2013 at 12:07 am |
    • Akira

      Gay people deserve the same exact civil rights afforded to everyone under our Constitution, without interference from any organized religion. Period.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • Austin

      Oops ha. Commanded to repent. Akira no one is born Gay. Have you ever heard of a gay baby? Me neither.

      Deaf baby, retarded baby? Autistic? Yes. Gay........no.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:09 am |
    • The real Tom

      Austin, you are so dumb is criminal.

      Did you ever hear of a straight baby?

      Stupid ass.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:10 am |
    • Austin

      #1I dreamt about the tile patio , a huge and beautiful rock tile with wide grout and a beautiful pattern and color, ater i had entered a stone arch entrance. There was an arm reaching into a whole, a whole chizzeled out of the ground. and the arm pulled out a leather bag full of gems. wrote these down in the middle or the night half asleep. The next day....I kept reading my bible.......

      Jeremiah 43:8-13
      New American Standard Bible (NASB)
      8 Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying, 9 “Take some large stones in your [a]hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick terrace which is at the entrance of Pharaoh’s [c]palace in Tahpanhes, in the sight of [d]some of the J.ews; 10 and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, “Behold, I am going to send and get Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and I am going to set his throne right over these stones that I have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

      #2 the next night I dreamed that i was being attacked by a motorcycle gang and that the leader of the gang had a huge animal horn, att.atched to his seat. he could not even sit on his bike. he was trying to run me over. they were a rebel gang.
      the next day, i had finished reading Jeremiah and gotten into Lament.ations

      ◄ Lament.ations 2:3 ►

      New International Version (©2011)
      In fierce anger he has cut off every horn of Israel. He has withdrawn his right hand at the approach of the enemy. He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire that consumes everything around it.
      ◄ Lament.ations 2:17 ►

      New International Version (©2011)
      The LORD has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his word, which he decreed long ago. He has overthrown you without pity, he has let the enemy gloat over you, he has exalted the horn of your foes.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:13 am |
    • The real Tom

      Austin's definition of a VISION: any dream that contains ANYTHING he happens to see the next day. He'll soon have a VISION about cornflakes and he'll know it was a MESSAGE FROM GOD because his mommy will serve him cornflakes for BREAKFAST THE VERY NEXT MORNING! Probably while he's floating in an ABOVE GROUND POOL!

      April 27, 2013 at 12:14 am |
    • The real Tom

      "an arm reaching into a whole, a whole chizzeled out of the ground."

      God obviously fvcked up when he made your head, Austin.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:15 am |
    • Austin

      Akira, the world is beyond being a religious state. M mand do you eve hear me engage in politics? No, because if I wasn't living in the us, I would excercise my freedoms that the us pretends to give people that are God given freedoms.

      I don't care about politics.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:15 am |
    • Akira

      Austin, that was so patently ridiculous, I can't even give a coherent answer because I am laughing so hard.

      Tom said it. I don't have to.
      Educate yourself. Read something besides your Bible. It can't explain what science hadn't yet proved, as it was written before the technology was discovered...yes, dear, people ARE born gay. Oh, my.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:16 am |
    • The real Tom

      "No, because if I wasn't living in the us, I would excercise my freedoms that the us pretends to give people that are God given freedoms."

      Where did you get these notions, Austin? They're so dumb they sound like things a 9-year-old would say.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:19 am |
    • mama k

      Yes I believe they are, Akira. I think they will prove that out within my lifetime and I am not a spring chicken.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:21 am |
    • Austin

      Tom, a hole and yes it was a vision, just like dreaming about a house and pool that was a blueprint that was shown to me 2 days later. The pattern here is obvious . They were legitimate supernatural visions. I dreamed, point blank, about the hole in the ground and the hiding place, and about the animal horn, two nights in a row 2 revelations about details about Gods word that I hadn't read yet, did read the next day, and didn't know a single detail about.

      That is a supernatural miracle. And the holy spirit reveals Gods word as truth. glory to God. He is risen.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:22 am |
    • The real Tom

      Austin, you are such a tool that you would make the most ardent believer vomit.

      You never had a vision in your sad little life any more than you ever had a date that didn't require a pump. You're just plain addled. Nothing more. Your diatribes about gays just gives anyone reading here more evidence that you're a dimwitted, delusional nut-bag who should have been involuntarily committed years ago.

      Just find a hole and stick your head in it. Stay there. Permanently.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:26 am |
    • mama k

      I think I told you this before, Austin. I don't believe your dreams and I don't believe you. But if the risen Lord happens to float over your way sometime, send him over to my place because I'm going to read him the riot act and then put him to work around my place before sending him off to fix do some other things. I think after my place, I'll have him meet with some engineers and make sure these highway bridges are in good order.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:29 am |
    • Austin

      Freedom in truth . Goodnight.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:31 am |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, shove it up your ass, Austin. You wouldn't recognize truth if it walked up and kicked you in the nuts. I'm with mama k. I don't believe a word you type, you fraud.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:36 am |
    • Austin

      You don't believe what......l? Clarify what you don't believe? Be specific.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:37 am |
    • The real Tom

      Be specific? Why would anyone bother? What part of "I don't believe you" is so hard to grasp?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • Akira

      I cannot stand when people use God to hide behind their innate prejudices and bigotry. I understand a true belief; I truly do.
      It's the hate speech and the divisiveness that gets me; the name calling about people who were born that way.
      Biblical bullies, I call them.
      I can't abide a bigot.
      There ought to be a law, lol.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:42 am |
    • mama k

      That's funny – "freedom in truth". For the fundie theist, truth is always conflicting to someone else's version of "truth"; and in so constantly pursuing it, and all the while pretending that the conflicts aren't there, more and more barriers are built in attempting to more clearly set one's notion of "truth" apart from the others. "Fencing-one's self in" is what it is, not freedom.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:42 am |
    • mama k

      (And I'm sure Austin knows a lot about fences.)

      April 27, 2013 at 12:43 am |
    • Austin

      It happened again, and again, and again, and again, and then there was the dream about the blueprint that came 2 days later, than a week or so later the kid said He dreamed about going around and looking for a light in people's eyes the morning after I asked myself if they had the light in their eyes..he didn't know the bible , and he didn't know my thoughts.

      Now do you remember the cat dream?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:45 am |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, shut the fvck up about the stupid cat dream and the light in the eye dream and the blueprint dream and the ABOVE GROUND POOL dream, Austin, you witless boob. Not one of them is a vision or has the slightest meaning to anyone with a brain.

      Everyone has read about your idiotic nightmares and nobody is impressed. Nobody is converting. Nobody is falling on his knees. Get over yourself, dude. You're just not special at all.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:48 am |
    • mama k

      I remember it, Austin, but sorry, I put it away behind my memory of counting ceiling tiles in my doctor's office when I was four years old.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:49 am |
    • Austin

      Akira you create the obvious Delia with the unforced lie that they were born that way. Then you emotionally go on a bigot tandem. That's your act. And I accept people period. But not the sin . Especially a se.xual perversion. That is unacceptable and it is going way to far for you all to be reinforcing sin. You should be ashamed of yourself and sp should hom.o se.xuals. And fornicators, and people who jerk to Po.rn. All the same deal. Immorality. Serving sensual desire is a shallow life. It is the an thesis of spiritual love. There are many imposters.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:52 am |
    • Akira

      "
      You lefties have a club hobby, the unbelief hobby, and youn like to say ” they were born that way”. And you are doing yourself and others harm by this unbelief."

      I am flabbergasted that you think belief in God has anything to do with whether or not a person is born homosexual or heterosexual, Austin.
      That is like saying belief in God affects whether you are born male or female.
      Open a different book, kiddo.
      Belief in God is all fine and good, but your notion that belief or non-belief has anything to do with biology is patently ridiculous.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:52 am |
    • The real Tom

      More claptrap and drivel from the nut-job. Nobody cares what you believe, Austin, when you show yourself to be so ignorant of real truth. Research shows you to be completely wrong concerning s3xual orientation. That you continue to believe crap rather than learn is a symptom of your fear.

      Grow up.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:56 am |
    • mama k

      Austin Translator: "demonic opression" ==> sex depravation

      No wonder you're having nutty dreams.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:59 am |
    • mama k

      oops ( oppression )

      April 27, 2013 at 1:01 am |
    • mama k

      LOL – not what I meant – let me do that one again:

      "demonic oppression" ==> sex deprivation

      April 27, 2013 at 1:04 am |
    • Akira

      I have no act, Austin. What you see is what I am.
      The facts are in about being gay, and unfortunately for you, it isn't a choice to be born gay any more than it is a choice to be born straight, male, or female.
      Continuing to stubbornly insist otherwise what has been empirically proven makes one look really, really silly.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:06 am |
  20. Douglas

    Thank you BSA for continuing to protect our youth.

    There is too high a risk for repeating the nightmare of male on male molestation of boys by leaders
    if we open the lid of Pandora's box.

    The BSA were burned when they unbeknowst had gay leaders in the ranks who stealthily took advantage of access to young, prepubescent and post-pubescent boys for a fornication feast.

    A line has been drawn in the sand. That will never happen again.

    Allowing gay boys into the scouts will provide them an opportunity to round out their outlook on life
    and see that there is hope for change just up ahead.

    April 26, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, boo hoo hoo, Doogie. Your cause is lost.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Akira

      Pedophiles prey on children.
      Homosexuals do not.
      Learn the difference, bigot.
      http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/pedophilia_and_molestation.htm

      The harm of your conversion therapy:
      http://www.businessinsider.com/ex-gay-activist-reportedly-gay-again-2013-4

      People are born with their gender preference. Get it?
      Time you came to terms with whatever is bothering you so much about gay people, whose lives impact yours NOT AT ALL.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
    • Douglas

      @The real Tom,

      Tom,

      I don't think our cause is lost.

      Many churches, synagogues and mosques are rallying to defend the family against the introduction
      of gay marriage as a religious rite. No church/temple/mosque can be forced to deconstruct its
      belief system and Holy Books to satisfy the political agenda of a fringe few.

      Obama wasted precious political capital on gay marriage with diminishing returns.

      Meanwhile, the economy is in shambles and our national security has been penetrated by
      a blowback operation supported by the very same terrorists that we have bankrolled in Chechnya,
      Libya and Syria. Gay marriage should be and will soon become a low, low priority as the economy and national security
      crumble while men rejoice at the prospect of "legalized" fornication.

      This country needs a leadership enema to clean out all of the fornication and filth clogging the national mindset.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • Austin

      They are both perverts and both se.xually deviant.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "Many churches, synagogues and mosques are rallying to defend the family against the introduction
      of gay marriage as a religious rite."

      Nobody gives a ripe fvck, Doogie, what your church or any other says about gay marriage. Nobody needs a church's say-so to marry. What they DO need is the law. Tough t i t t y for you and Austin. You'll just have to screw each other in secret.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • Douglas

      Akira,
      LGBTQ have the right to question and change the preferences they have chosen.
      If we can help them in the decisionmaking process that is a good thing.
      People can make choices of their own free will.
      They have the right to jettison LGBTQ lifestyles if they choose...and many are doing just that...without your interference.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • The real Tom

      So Akira is "interfering"? What the fvck are YOU doing, Doggie Doo?

      April 26, 2013 at 11:44 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "Meanwhile, the economy is in shambles"

      Oh? Gosh, my portfolio is at an all-time record for profits. The market is up. Sales of homes are on the rise and so are the prices.

      Where do you live? Not here, apparently. Poor little you.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:46 pm |
    • Akira

      I will repeat my post:

      Pedophiles prey on children.
      Homosexuals do not.
      Learn the difference, bigot.
      http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/pedophilia_and_molestation.htm

      The harm of your conversion therapy:
      http://www.businessinsider.com/ex-gay-activist-reportedly-gay-again-2013-4

      People are born with their gender preference. Get it?
      Time you came to terms with whatever is bothering you so much about gay people, whose lives impact yours NOT AT ALL.
      You are seriously messing with people's psyche's here, Douglas; you don't know the irreparable harm you are doing to people because YOU choose to unnaturally tamp down your natural sexuality by any means possible.
      You are a bigot, and a religious one at that, which makes you doubly repugnant.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:54 pm |
    • mama k

      A "fornication feast"? Is that a new kind of cat food from Purina? Just exactly what the hell is wrong with you, Douglas?

      You have no friggin idea what you're talking about. You live in the past; hang on outdated, bigoted studies and have this strange fascination with what goes on in people's bedrooms. Screw you and the horse you rode in on. We'll see you at the polls or at the other end of the court decisions, which ever come first. While we're waiting on that, we could see anywhere from two to a handful of more countries legalize same-sex marriage.

      April 26, 2013 at 11:59 pm |
    • .

      Tom, if I had to guess where Dougie DoWrong lived, it would be in some trailer park compound surrounded by all of his extended family, surviving on spam and pork and beans while awaiting the gay apocalypse. Friggin weirdo.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • The real Tom

      I doubt the screwball could buy a trailer. It's probably rented.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:03 am |
    • mama k

      "surviving on spam and pork"

      You might cause him to wince when you say that. There may actually be a porcine component to the "extended" family.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:12 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.