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Mormon Church 'satisfied' with Boy Scouts possibly lifting gay youth ban
The Boy Scouts of America has been considering a change in its longstanding policy against allowing openly gay members.
April 26th, 2013
08:20 AM ET

Mormon Church 'satisfied' with Boy Scouts possibly lifting gay youth ban

By Dan Merica, CNN
[twitter-follow screen_name='DanMericaCNN']

Washington (CNN) – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said it was "satisfied" with the Boy Scouts of America’s move to consider no longer denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation.

In a statement Thursday, the Mormon church called the issue “complex and challenging” and said it believed the Boy Scouts were making “a thoughtful, good-faith effort” to address the issue.

“We are grateful to BSA for their careful consideration of these issues," the statement said. “We appreciate the positive things contained in this current proposal that will help build and strengthen the moral character and leadership skills of youth as we work together in the future.”

The Boy Scouts of America said last week it would consider a proposal that would no longer deny membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation but would maintain its ban on openly gay adult leaders. The organization's executive committee made the proposal.

"If approved, the resolution would mean that 'no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.' The BSA will maintain the current membership policy for all adults," Boy Scouts public relations director Deron Smith said.

The Boy Scouts proposal was anticipated after the group had punted on the issue in February. At the time, the Mormon church heralded the postponement, saying the organization had “acted wisely in delaying a vote on this policy issue until the implications can be more carefully evaluated.”

The Mormon Church has long been a supporter of the Boy Scouts, both in numbers and words. In 2011, Mormons represented 15% of the 2.7 million registered Boy Scouts, the single biggest group.

The church teaches that sex should be reserved only for a married man and woman, and congregants in violation of the church's teaching on sexual relationships can be excommunicated. Since gay people cannot be married in the church, any sex would be premarital and therefore sinful. Under these beliefs, members of the lesbian, gay and transgender community could be practicing Mormons as long as they are celibate.

Though the church’s doctrine condemning homosexuality has not changed in the last few years, and it remains opposed to same-sex marriage, some observers say the church is subtly but unmistakably growing friendlier toward the LGBT community, including voicing support for some gay rights.

Some activists pointed to the less public role in same-sex marriage ballot initiatives in 2012, a marked departure from earlier fights - such as California's Proposition 8 in which the church vocally supported the move to have same-sex marriage banned.

A statement in support of allowing gay children to join the Boy Scouts would be another step in that softening.

“The current BSA proposal constructively addresses a number of important issues that have been part of the ongoing dialogue including consistent standards for all BSA partners, recognition that Scouting exists to serve and benefit youth rather than Scout leaders, a single standard of moral purity for youth in the program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God,” this week's Mormon statement continued.

The Boy Scouts' proposal is expected to be presented to voting members at the organization's May meeting in Dallas. If the policy is approved, it will take effect January 1.

- CNN’s Katia Hetter contributed to this report.

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Belief • Mormonism • Politics • Sexuality

soundoff (1,554 Responses)
  1. Trance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKxk9TvyJrs
    `

    April 27, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
  2. The Lord doesn't take pleasure in you burning for eternity...turn from your wicked ways and live!

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Eze 18:21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

    Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

    April 27, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
    • Colin

      Well, why doesn't he turn off the ovens?

      April 27, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Yeah...infinite punishment for finite crimes is immoral. But even without the torture just the notion of having to endure existence for eternity sounds unbelievably boring. I don't think believers even give any thought to just how awful existing without end would be. Take any example of something you absolutely love doing. Perhaps you love golf. In heaven you can play golf on the most diverse and beautiful courses. Golf enjoyed for 10,000 years or a million until you have so mastered the game... a hole in one at every hole. At some point it has to get boring, even hellish. And you still have an eternity to go..it never ever ends. Seriously where is the appeal?

      April 27, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Science

      From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life

      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml

      April 27, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      @ AtheistSteve

      They have never had to put that much thought into the afterlife....they are only concerned with you obedience in this life, and use hell to scare you into line......they know fire hurts like hell after burning so many at the stake for a few centuries...so eternity in hell was born.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • fred

      Colin
      God has shown you the plan of salvation and it is very clear. Any ovens that are turned on are turned on by you. God is not a respecter of man and has set up a way for any that wish to enter into an eternal unity. You do not need to accept a gift as goodness simply is God and that does not change regardless of your thoughts or actions.
      One of the benefits of such eternal goodness is that by definition that attribute cannot toss Colin into the fire. You can choose to reject God and the offer which at a minimum (should you continue to reject with your last breath) would result in continuation of some form of nonexistence in Christ where believers find eternal unity. We are told that we do not know your final disposition. Hell is reserved for Satan and his demons not those without capacity to choose.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • fred

      Atheist Steve
      You error in that you think you can bring the things of this world in the coming kingdom. You cannot.
      You error in the thought that time and space consist of past, present and future in that kingdom.
      You error in that you do not comprehend soul and unity with the Father.
      You error in that we are in Christ when we are eternal not in our physical form or thoughts.
      You error in that such thought you have put out exists in darkness not the light.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      @R.M. Goodswell

      Yes well that fear tactic only works on those who believe. Hell is a poor deterrent for the unbeliever.
      What gets me is they seem so enamored of the idea of eternal life but haven't considered the implications.
      A few examples of what they expect are as follows.

      After you die you are reunited with loved ones.
      What about unrequited love? Will you be hounded forever by those you never really cared for but were completely infatuated with you? What about those you loved who didn't make it into heaven? Must you endure knowing they are being tortured unendingly and somehow feel good about it?

      All your questions will be answered.
      Anything you ever wanted to know about is revealed. Mysteries about the universe, the origin and meaning of life. How will it be to not have any curiosity about anything. Nothing to learn or ponder. How intellectually stale would that be?

      April 27, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • fred

      Atheist Steve
      I lost your post regarding meaning of life to the atheist. My reply was that the laws of scarcity do not apply to what is meaningful. Love is not a function of supply and demand or the passage of time. You can love at first sight or take years to develop the deepest of love yet it can be trampled on.
      Simply knowing this is the only shot you get does not change the purpose or meaning of existence. That purpose is the same regardless of the length of your personal life. You are either part of a purposed creation or an accidental universe.
      If you are part of an accidental universe then you are without purpose. Organic matter responding to chemical stimuli.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      @ AtheistSteve

      lol truly...

      Another thing they didn't consider is the unpredictable God they fashioned....I think such a being would keep the billions in heaven on their toes:)) He is enraged for minor infractions and not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed...such a being would be like living around the playground bully of your childhood......forever...sound like heaven to me:))

      April 27, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      I make no error fred.

      I am describing things that make us who we are. Our dreams, aspirations, goals and desires. If you divorce these things from ourselves then we aren't really us now are we? What is a soul if not our innermost selves?
      Also eternity is a description of time. Never-ending time. Are you suggesting we don't feel the passage of time in heaven? How is that any different from not existing at all?
      You claim everlasting life but fail to infuse it with anything even remotely connected to living. In fact you make so many claims about what awaits after death without any explanation of what that afterlife offers. Except for endlessly worshipping at the feet of your God of course. All you describe is metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, transcendental mental masturbation.
      Personally I welcome the oblivion that death offers. The natural end that gives the life I have now meaning and purpose. The alternative is unthinkably horrible. If we never die then our lives here have no meaning. 70 odd years compared to infinity is absolutely inconsequential. My life is precious and valuable precisely because it is finite. Your view obliterates that.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Well said, atheist steve. I would that all believers understand the simple-yet-true reasoning you share.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      @the opening post

      It seems to me that it would be silly for got to allow something which he does not take pleasure in. Stupid god, doesn't he know he can do away with hell, or that he might never have allowed it to exist?

      April 27, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • fred

      AtheistSteve
      " Seriously where is the appeal?"
      =>The appeal is the assurance that the thoughts you expressed do not exist and they exist without reference to time as we know it. The appeal is being loved and expressing love absent of time constraints. Locked in awe to what may seem an eternity on earth yet passes in an instant.

      =>on the flip side the Bible was putting across the notion that hell is the opposite of eternal life in unity with God. Adam and Eve had perfect unity then elected to step outside of that bubble in God where there was no death or pain. The world we know is that world and what God has provided is a way to get back into unity. Jesus said I am the way so there is a simply example or model of how to get on track. Not complicated.
      We further know that at the end of our life our soul will either rest in the presence of God (unity) or completely outside the presence of God. God is currently active in our world restraining evil. Existence completely outside the presence of God sounds like hell.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Pure silly mumbo-jumbo, fred. Humans do not have knowledge of any concept or action that is not bound by time. Our existence is one of change and growth and a beginning and an end. To ask someone to imagine otherwise is ridiculousness–either as a reward or a punishment. Silly Christians.

      And, why the fvck would god allow his creation to be so easily corrupted? Stupid. "Here, let me make this whole grand design trillions of light years across and spanning eons of time, but one wrong thought by one creation is all it takes to screw the whole thing up." Silly god.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • fred

      AtheistSteve
      "Are you suggesting we don't feel the passage of time in heaven?"
      =>not suggesting it simply rephrasing what the Bible says. Gods time is not our time and 10,000 years is as a day. In short there is a very different space and time outside our dimension. The Bible uses terms we can understand for heaven but few expect walls of jasper and streets of gold which were just expressions of great wonder that awaits. Jesus made it clear when he said we would be like him and we would be in Christ that you will not be playing golf or have to get a hole in one.
      =>Based on current scientific understanding causation could not be within our space and time dimension. Our concept of time is all we know and have known. I cannot imagine an alternate time and space because I do not have a reference point outside of that perspective. How can you really imagine being absorbed into an eternal state?

      Some religions offer planets to their members but the Bible basically says you won't believe your eyes.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • The Lord doesn't take pleasure in you burning for eternity...turn from your wicked ways and live!

      http://youtu.be/E15IC3YKv8g

      April 27, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      The God of the Bible is stone age thinking.....he acts in purely a stone age manner... complete with stone age rewards and punishments. end of story.

      Is why it is falling apart now...

      April 27, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      "If you are part of an accidental universe then you are without purpose. Organic matter responding to chemical stimuli."

      I am part of an accidental universe. My life has no purpose with respect to that universe. My life DOES have purpose with respect to the people I affect and those that affect me. I'm a human being not a cosmic entity. My concerns are worldly because those are the only concerns that matter.
      I get a particular kick out of the way you keep referring to love. Like it is some ethereal otherworldly aspect of our soul. Now you haven't presented a good case for a soul to begin with but love is merely a brain state. An emotion... and one that plays heavily into our evolutionary makeup and survival.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      =>Based on current scientific understanding causation could not be within our space and time dimension.

      So what? Because we don't understand what caused an event it is logical to assume god did it....and specifically YOUR god? I reject that out of hand.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • fred

      Moby
      Looks like we agree that the Bible is correct when it says we cannot know the ways of God. Certainly there is no reason to believe our time boundaries apply in Gods Kingdom.
      Given that the tree of knowledge was in the garden as well as the tree of life in the beginning before the fall of man is a good indication that either God knew man would blow it or blowing it is part of the process of eternal life.
      What difference is a trillion years relative to eternity?

      April 27, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      "Some religions offer planets to their members but the Bible basically says you won't believe your eyes."

      Yes Mormons are promised planets, but my question is this. What eyes? No physical body=no eyes. And eyes require a brain to convert the images to neural impulses we recreate as pictures in our minds. How does your soul "see, hear or feel"? And what do any of those terms mean without a brain to interpret them?

      April 27, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
    • fred

      Blessed are the Cheesemakers
      correct, I was not implying science predicts god is or is not needed in quantum cosmology or other pre big bang alternatives.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • fred

      AtheistSteve
      We cannot see it as Christ said we will see Him because we will be like Him and we are in unity with God only in Christ. The only thing stored up in "heaven" is love, joy, peace etc. that are the fruits of the Spirit. It would appear to be completely spiritual.

      non biblical speculation on my part: The soul is the accumulation of non physical attributes apart from the physical. We are spiritual beings having a physical encounter and the brain/organic chemical stimuli allows us to experience the physical. At the end of encounter our physical nature is of no further use. The being continues further encounters.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      "The soul is the accumulation of non physical attributes "

      Non-biblical or biblical it's ALL speculation. And what exactly are non physical attributes? Don't say love, joy and such because those are all linked directly to our brain despite what you claim about them being spiritual. What I'm trying to get across to you is this. If you strip away all the physical experiences of our existence what's left. I am the product of a lifetime of physical experiences. It's what makes me ME. Everything I've learned is a result of using my brain. In every measurable account I am a manifestation of my brain. If my brain is damaged my personality will reflect that change. I would become different from what I was before.
      If all the these physical aspects are discarded when we die and our soul is liberated then what of me is still there? Your vision has distilled away all the humanity out of what it is to be human.

      Yoda said: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." A poetic phrase to be sure but it is bereft of substance and meaning. And even those notable Star Wars characters had ghostly bodies much like their ones from life. If you take away all the physical aspects of our existence what remains is a pale and insignificant shadow of our true nature.

      April 27, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
  3. Why do I warn you?

    Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    April 27, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Answer

      Pathetic christard drivel.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • Bob

      Just more of Christian sky fairy being a murderous jerk again. Here's some more of that, straight from the Christian book of horrors AKA the bible, with a sampling of both testaments of that horrid book of fiction:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      *Quaking in boots*

      April 27, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
  4. lionlylamb

    Break you the bonds of infantile regressions which hold your compassions of loathing adoration for man to man or woman to woman. Seek therefor the bindings of opposing fledglings in order to attain a sanction of purity and wholesome love. Love not the tempters of facetiousness yet pay them their dues but do not linger too long within their encampments lest you become as them and are then lost into the darkness of the abysmal. Has not time itself been also as a friendly comforter in times of uncertainty pulling ever gently upon your cerebral minding ways? The physical acts dare binds up the sensual visions rendering caustic travesties to one and all that are complicit.

    If we knew all things we would be Gods yet since we know little to practically nothing we are as feeble creatures living out the days foraging away our lives with nary much thoughts regarding Godly ideals. Infantile regurgitations of self-loathing are as far as the lowly children can muster up. As children bewailing their parent's dues, they become antagonistic and revel unjustifiably and become as uncaring juvenile delinquents. Social suffrage ideologies dare then becomes a child's societal parameters and their augmented self-sultriness issues around cultural ident ities are ever more meaningless toward their natured infantile wants.

    Infantile reverberations being always around are ever to be damningly found. Those who dawdle in instinctually overt castrating words are lowlife feeble mongers unworthy of anything that goodness envisions. Dare you to redress one's phylum trajectories away from implausible confining issues meant to be subversive and belittling to the self and to the others a wound of inflammability. Defamation of one's characters will ever become and always be done thru childish wayfaring issues meant to instill unvalued calamities of social unrest.

    We all are God’s chosen one’s ever to be taken by accounts of actionable tenures. Belief in a Holy God of immortality is not a hardened belief to be acquired yet for one to accept such an issue is where many seem to be failing. From such a failing come all mannerisms of the blame games ever to incite the wills of believers detracting wisdom upon the individual who dares to incite. Being immortal one dare should believe in Life to death and back to Life onward thru all eternities. My childish characterizations in my latter years give me peace where I had none to be had.

    April 27, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • The real Tom

      What happened to your "infantile" Lettuce Love, Love Let Us, Let Us Love drivel, you ninny?

      You are too stupid to be believed. Hom0s3xuality is not something anyone gets to choose. If it were, you could choose to be gay right now, you ignorant bonehead. Why don't you? Prove to all of us that you can be gay on a moment's notice, Loopy.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • Akira

      The only infantile thing here is your very skewed views on gay people.
      You couldn't be further from wrong if you tried, and I see that you are trying very hard.
      For all of your "wordy witticisms", you are completely ignorant in this area.
      (Shrug) Sorry.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Speaking of stupid. You don't even know who's pushing the gay agenda in this country and who cares less if gays burn in hell as long as they con you into believing it's natural, you were born that way.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Akira, so you'd rather stick your head in the sand, tell gay folks there is nothing sinful in their actions that will have them fry in hell when they leave this life? Oh yes, , selfish is as selfish does.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Tommie,

      Your insinuative ilk is duly noted as verbal junk. If linguistic filthiness is all you care muster, then bathe yourself in the lights of compassion and quit with your bigoted preying innuendos. The mind is a terrible thing to waste in selfish loathsomeness vented toward another.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      HeavenSent,

      Is it a wise thing to throw a bone of contemptuousness into the lakes of despair without first seeing the disparity issued by loathsomeness's tirades? Growing away from infantile regressive natures leaves many still in the social wombs wanting ever to relive their young fantasies of youthfulness ways. Growing within emotionally challenged mental aberrations is not an easy thing to do. I've spent years running away from my passing ways and until recently I began to accept my past misgivings. God knows well my past's ill-done deeds. Only by forgiving one's self of passing misdeeds and finding a better way to live will one know of God's Love and ever tendering ways.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • Science

      HS go pound sand !

      From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life

      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml

      April 27, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Have you turned yourself gay yet, loopy lion?

      April 27, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The real Tom, I'm glad you finally admitted that people turn themselves into what they want and that they aren't born that way..

      April 27, 2013 at 7:32 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Science, cough MamaK, no "peace message" in your babble.

      April 27, 2013 at 7:33 pm |
    • The real Tom

      So you've turned yourself gay, then, HS? Good to know. Have fun in the Castro.

      April 27, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I have no reason to live my life backwards and inside out.

      April 28, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, apparently you do, dear, since you don't know which end is up. But enough of that–I was talking about your s3xual orientation. Try to keep up, darling, or people will conclude that you've got Alzheimer's.

      April 28, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Be forced (so she thinks) to continue the lie or else get bullied, that a person is born that way so the individual gives away their responsibility of governing their life. If anyone doesn't agree with The real Tom he/she will bully them and bring in reinforcements (fake handles) to ensure the bullying continues from this obnoxious, lying, BAITER.

      LOL. LOL. LOL,

      April 30, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Science

      Hey HS ...........

      Holy Hallucinations 35

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XTCRdC8Dlo

      April 30, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
  5. lionlylamb

    If we knew all things we would be Gods yet since we know little to practically nothing we are as feeble creatures living out the days foraging away our lives with nary much thoughts regarding Godly ideals. Infantile regurgitations of self-loathing is as far as the children can muster up. As children bewailing their parent's dues, they become antagonistic and revel unjustifiably and become as uncaring juvenile delinquents. Social suffrage dare then becomes a child's societal parameters and their augmented self-sultriness issues around cultural ident ities are ever more meaningless toward their infantile wants.

    April 27, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • Akira

      If you think gay people are infantile and self-loathing, you'd be mistaken.
      If you are talking about yourself, well, I can't comment.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      Infantile regressions of adulthoods regarding physical characterizations of loathsome pleasantries hammer home the gay crowds justifications wants in the physically pleasing. Sodomy was and still is and will ever be the niches of adult orientated infantile regression.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.  KJV

      Proverbs 16:25

      Amen.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      LL

      This in an unnecessary wedge that we ll lose when we cut religion adrift for good...one of many many wedges in fact.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      R.M. Goodswell,

      Adult orientated mental regressions around remembrances dares to copulate the adulthoods lucidness. As time progresses onward from childhood, mentally regressive issues of remembrances tend to urge said person to relive their childhood fantasias. Being gay entails little about orientation but rather being gay is of regressive thought mitigations.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
    • Science

      Does HS have a WEDGIE ?

      It would be NICE......... but
      Maybe they should not have created the wedge !!!
      The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Insti-tute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Insti-tute manifesto known as the Wedge Docu-ment,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to defeat materialism, naturalism, evolution, and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic
      convictions.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

      April 27, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      who you spend your nights with has zero impact on me. Doesn't bother me a bit to see same s ex couples...shouldn't bother you either. There are so many bigger, more urgent issues facing humanity...namely Religion and its intrusion into Government. Religion and its stomping on the rights of people.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      R.M. Goodswell,

      What good things and issues come from sodomy? Surely you can tell us of sodomy's goodness! It is most assuredly truth that many hetero marriages end in divorces. What goodness comes from such issues? Still though God is not moved by peoples' misgiving ways. God's kingdom domains are made deeply seeded within all things celestial upon the atomic cosmologies dominions of which we cannot seem to fathom out rightly and with much appeal from the masses. Did not Christ jesus profess that, "The kingdom of God is within you"? Christ meant it literally that God's kingdom domains lay upon the insides of celestial tranquilities.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      LL

      So many horrific things go on in this world.... starvation, wars, the fleecing exploitation of the poor by the rich...
      And you want to focus on somebody else's bedroom?

      April 27, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • The real Tom

      He's fascinated because he admitted to abusing a younger male relative at one time. He is a doddering old fart who hasn't got a gray cell left.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      R.M. Goodswell,

      Humanities suffrage is due political waywardness and religious denials. Social injustices of immoral sanctimonies make for strange bedfellows. The haberdasheries of Life within the celestial confinements will never be without the Gods who inhabit the atomic cosmos living inside all things of celestial confinements. Celestial Life is the crowning achievements of the Godly who all live upon and within the atomic chasms of cosmology. Celestial Life is of Godliness husbandry. We all labor equally with the Gods for all such Life is the God's buildings to inhabit. Without the Gods there could be no celestial life.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "The haberdasheries of Life"

      The loon finds a word that sounds good to him and uses it to mean anything he chooses.

      April 27, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
  6. Reality

    Why we should not care what Mormons think about any subject:

    Bottom line: Mormonism is a business/employment/investment cult using a taxing i.e. t-ithing "religion" as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business. And the accounting books are closed to all but the prophet/"profit" and his all-male hierarchy.

    Tis a great business model i.e. charge your Mormon employees/stock holders a fee/t-ithe and invest it in ranches, insurance companies, canneries, gaudy temples, a great choir and mission-matured BYU football and basketball teams.

    And all going back to one of the great cons of all times i.e. the Moroni revelations to Joseph Smith analogous to mythical Gabriel's revelations to the hallucinating Mohammed !!!

    See p. 2 for added details about the assets and workings of the Mormon business cult.

    April 27, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      And Moroni Gave it to him in 16th century English no less.....well gave him the magic glasses anyway that allowed him to see it in Olde English....which he 'translated" behind a curtain and somebody else wrote it down. why the curtain? why did no other person actually see these gold plates? - given the size of the BoM..the plates would have been too heavy for one man... or two...could it be that there were no plates?...no couldn't be the case:)).

      April 27, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
  7. Damocles

    @russ

    Another thing.... if you told your kid he or she was a good for nothing, lying sack of crap that didn't deserve to live, would you be shocked that people came down a bit hard on you?

    April 27, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Damocles: you're hearing what I'm saying, but you need to go further with it.
      in order for me to say that to my kid, I'd have to be a hypocrite.
      no, instead I lead w/ the fact that *I* am the sack of crap that needed someone to die for me.
      the amazing thing is that he did... and if there's love like that *making* me valuable...

      you're hearing the judgment of the cross without holding it in tension with the grace that is even more prevalent there.

      April 28, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
  8. Bostontola

    Is there a moral issue with the fundamental Christian proposition?
    Accept Christ in this short life; if so you are rewarded with everlasting love, if not you are doomed to everlasting horror.

    The punishment seems so far out of proportion to the transgression it is immoral. I don't even need to include people that were not exposed to Christ, or children taught by their parents that another is the true god. It is morally wrong according to my sense of morality.

    April 27, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • lol??

      Claiming ignorance won't save ya. Pharisees are a dime/dozen, when da mob owns em.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • Bostontola

      lol??,
      You seem to ignore what a person states and reply to what you want them to have said. I purposefully ruled out ignorance in my point. I'll spell my point out to you:
      Not only do many religious people ignore facts when their beliefs are in conflict with those facts (example, evolution), but their own moral code contains deep inconsistencies. These are usually explained as "god works in mysterious ways" or "man's intelligence is not even a speck compared to god's". I'm afraid that doesn't do it when it applies to fundamental morals that are supposed to be part of the foundation of religion.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • lol??

      Evolution? That's pretend and way before the scientific method, Bozo. It goes all the way back to Aristotle, pre-science, Bozo.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Name calling? Shame on you.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • ME II

      @lol??
      "Evolution? That's pretend and way before the scientific method, Bozo. It goes all the way back to Aristotle, pre-science, Bozo."

      The ancient Greek version of evolution is as close to today's Modern Synthesis as bloodletting (humours) is to antibiotics (germ theory).

      April 27, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
  9. Colin

    The belief that an infitely old, all-knowing sky-god, powerful enough to create the entire Universe and its billions of galaxies, will cause people to survive their own phsical deaths and live happily ever after in heaven, if they follow some random laws laid down in Bronze Age Palestine = Judaism.

    Judaism + a belief that the same god impregnated a virgin with himself to give birth to himself, so he could sacrifice himself to himself to negate a rule he himself made = Christianity.

    Christianity + a belief that aliens from other planets mated with humans who will one day be gods, that Jesus and Satan were brothers, that the Israelis colonized America and that magic underwear will protect you = mormonism.

    I sometimes wonder if we really are advancing as a species or just layering our silly superst.itions.

    April 27, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      All religion: believe first, answers will follow as fast as they can be fabricated.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • mama k

      @TTTOO

      like!

      April 27, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • John Patterson

      Everyone must choose their own path and if you choose to believe there is no God, that is your choice.However, if you are wrong and there is a God and Christ is really the only way to achieve eternal life, then you are in deep doodoo. I choose to believe that Christ is the "way, the truth and the life", so if you are right,I am out nothing,but if you are wrong, you are out everything.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • JMEF

      Colin
      I asked Chad why god would bother knocking up Mary, a married woman after all and just create a grown man like he did with Adam, would have saved a lot of time and Joseph would not be wondering? No answer of course because that would not fit in with the messiah prophecy, more fake messiahs at the time than evangelists today.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • lol??

      "...............infitely old, all-knowing .............." Youse guys are tellin' me the universe is older than my car.

      Dude, Where's My Car?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • What IF

      John Patterson,
      " if you are wrong and there is a God and Christ is really the only way to achieve eternal life, then you are in deep doodoo."

      This is another tired repeti.tion of Pascal's Wager - thoroughly refuted since the 17th century.

      - What if the real "God" is Allah, or Vishnu, or Zeus, or Quetzalcoatl, or any of the other of thousands which have been dreamed up over the centuries? Some of them are very jealous and vengeful and will relegate you to nasty places for not worshiping them. You'd better cover your butt by believing in ALL of them and fulfill their wishes and demands.

      - What if the real "God" prefers those who use logic and reason and punishes you as a silly sycophant?

      - What if the real "God" detests those who believe something just to cover their butts in eternity?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • ME II

      @John Patterson,
      That is typically considered Pascal's Wager and there are many arguments against it.
      However, do you really believe that the only unforgivable sin is to use one's mental faculties and risk being wrong?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Damocles

      @John

      Funny you don't consider the option of: if I die and there is a deity, it will value my willingness to not take things without proof and say 'good job' and will beat the crap out of you for believeing out of fear.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
    • ME II

      @JMEF,
      The reason that I hear is usually something about Jesus being fully man or experiencing life as we do. Although, that seems like a quite elaborate scenario needed for an omniscient being to gain experience. {shrug}

      April 27, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • Colin

      John Patterson, to pick up on "What IF's post" your logic is called "Pascal's Wager."

      This is why it is a fallacy:

      a) Pascal's Wager assumes that there are only two options.

      b) Pascal's Wager assumes the Christian god doesn't care whether someone actually believes, or simply goes through the motions.

      c) Pascal's Wager discounts the price paid for belief before death.

      d) Pascal's Wager vastly overestimates the likelihood of the risk times the gravity of the risk.

      a. Positing only two options is ridiculous. There are, of course, thousands of possibilities when it comes to gods. Based on the evidence available for these gods, it is not reasonable to assume one is more likely than any of the others. To increase the odds of a positive outcome of this wager, the believer would have to believe in, and worship, every possible god, including the ones that haven't been invented yet. Aside from the drain on the available time, it presents the problem that quite a few of these gods are pretty selfish. They frown upon believers believing in other gods. In some religions that is enough to not be eligible for the reward (making the belief position a lose/neutral one).

      b. One cannot “choose to believe” something. That has to be an honest conclusion drawn from the facts. I could not “choose” to believe in the Hindu god Shiva or Leprechauns, for example, as that would make no sense. What I can do is SAY I believe or PRETEND to believe. But going through the motions and pretending to believe may fool your community, but it can't fool an all-knowing god. It is very unlikely that anyone would gain the ultimate reward for simply faking belief.

      c. The price paid for the belief position isn't nothing. It involves going through the rituals, day after day, week after week. It may have severe side effects on physical and mental health. $ex life may suffer for some, too.

      d. In estimating whether the cost of any given action is worth it, an evaluation of risk versus reward is in order. Here is where proponents of the wager say they have a leg up, as an eternity of perdition must be valued very highly. However if the concomitant likelihood is close to infinitely low, it balances out to close enough to zero to be ignored. If one were to take the believer’s approach, one should live about a mile down an abandoned coal mine, to avoid a very, very unlikely, but fatal meteor impact.

      When extrapolated to the extreme of a god, the math becomes meaningless. For e.g., if I posited a god a billion times more vengeful and gruesome than yours, would you drop your belief and run over to my super-god?

      So, nice try, but, I will no more believe in a Greco-Roman Jewish god than I will in an almighty Pink Cow on Mars out of fear that I might be wrong and invoke his ovine wrath.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      @ John Patterson

      No worries there – we re not wrong..... Your God is pure fiction.

      How do you believe in something you cant believe in anyway? ...you know...just so I can have all my bases covered....
      because clearly I can fool an omniscient supreme authority right?

      Look at the history of the entirety of humanity....from the start of recorded history down to today...then take a look at your chosen set of holy books.......If you are remotely honest with yourself, you ll realize your God is a fabrication that has been sold to you.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      hinduism denial of truth absolute GOD in secular ism, self center ism of a hindu atheist, ignorant self centered, GOD of Abraham is not a hypothesis, but a fact, truth absolute, constant. A Plane can not fly without its constant, truth absolute and a building can not stand without its constant, balance, constant, truth absolute. Truth absolute LORD GOD rules universe and any one dependent on truth absolute , constant to be can not be LORD or a GOD. A universal truth, hindus ignorant deny by their hindu atheism, ignorant self center ism.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Islam

      What failed with Judaism and Christianity that Islam fixed? -- the three of these religions have been fighting each other for 1300 years and change...and you are no closer to a resolution than you where in 680AD. all of you claim to have the true word of god.....think about it for a second....or even a minute.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      *were*

      April 27, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      don't click on Report Abuse button, people must read my posts.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Islam..

      Whoever is doing that most likely wouldn't bother to reply to you....and the only ones ive ever reported are the "I ve made $6745/month posts.

      no...I can take the hits no matter how offensive I may find them....and you and I were more or less on topic.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      R.M. Goodswell,

      Don't lie to me ass hole

      April 27, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Funny how that hindu fixation clears right up when you want to insult someone...:)

      April 27, 2013 at 7:30 pm |
  10. Colin

    Are there no rational believers left on this site? It's becoming boring. We need more believers to tangle with. Poor old Chad tries to fight the good fight, but never seems to get any support from his fellow god-heads.

    April 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Topher

      If you're looking for a conversation, I'm game.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • Colin

      Problem is, Tropher, you and I have danced this dance before. It always ends at the same place. Thanks buddy, but I would like some fresh blood.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • lol??

      Lucy got bored reflectin' light. You sir, are in what is commonly called a Mexican Standoff. Ain't the dialectic fun??

      April 27, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
    • Topher

      True, you're not going to sway me and I'm guessing you'd say the same thing. But at least the conversation is interesting.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
    • Colin

      Topher, how big is the Universe in your understandinjg. By that I mean; (i) how many stars are there in a typical galaxy; and (ii) how many galaxies have we thus far observed?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Topher

      The Bible says the stars are as numerable as all the grains of sand on the whole earth. How many is that? No idea. More than I can count. Why?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      I'll field that question Colin. The average galaxy has about 100 billion stars. The current estimate is about 200 billion galaxies and counting.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      And those are "low ball" estimates.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
  11. The real Tom

    LL just woke up from his coma. Wonder when he'll start yapping about "loving lettuce."

    April 27, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Akira

      In Chicago, there is a restaurant management company named "Lettuce Entertain You". Perhaps that's where he got this cute little quip.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
  12. Topher

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3jrcP-o6Vs

    April 27, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Science

      For fred and biggles...............topher chad too !

      Cheech & Chong Read the Bible

      Cheech and Chong read the bible for all to hear.

      http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/7e64d0be37/cheech-chong-read-the-bible?rel=featured

      April 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Topher

      Really? You want to use Cheech & Chong ... potheads ... as your defense? Dave's not here. And neither is your worldview. 😉

      April 27, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Science

      Have a great life topher

      Scientists Find Genes Linked to Human Neurological Disorders in Sea Lamprey Genome

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130224142915.htm

      Peace

      Facts work .

      April 27, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
    • Topher

      The Bible vs. Science Then vs. Science Now

      The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22) — The earth was a flat disk —The earth is a sphere

      Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22) — Only 1,100 stars —Innumerable stars

      Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7) — Earth sat on a large animal —Free float of earth in space

      Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews 11:3) —Science ignorant on the subject —Creation made of invisible elements (atoms)

      Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41) — All stars the same —Each star is different

      Light moves (Job 38:19-20) —Light was fixed in place — Light moves

      Air has weight —Air is weightless —Air has weight

      Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6) —Winds blew straight —Winds blow in cyclones

      Blood is the source of life and health (Lev. 17:11) — Sick people must be bled — Blood is the source of life and health

      Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Sam. 22:16; Jonah 2:6) —Ocean floor is flat — Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains

      Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16) —Ocean fed only by rivers and rain — Ocean contains springs

      When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Lev. 15:13) — Hands washed in still water — When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water

      April 27, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • Science

      Was the bible around back then ?

      Human Y Chromosome Much Older Than Previously Thought

      Mar. 4, 2013 — The discovery and analysis of an extremely rare African American Y chromosome pushes back the time of the most recent common ancestor for the Y chromosome lineage tree to 338,000 years ago. This time predates the age of the oldest known anatomically modern human fossils.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305145821.htm

      No god(s) needed or required to graduate from public schools in the US

      Remember : Adam had to POKE himself hard with his OWN BONE to create Eve.

      No god(s) needed................... Old. DNA works..................also catches crooks !

      Ancient DNA Reveals Europe's Dynamic Genetic History

      Apr. 23, 2013 — Ancient DNA recovered from a series of skeletons in central Germany up to 7,500 years old has been used to reconstruct the first detailed genetic history of modern Europe.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423134037.htm

      April 27, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Topher, you lie, why do you lie?

      I only needed to check the first item to confirm you are a liar – a circle is not sphere.

      And how are you doing on providing any real evidence for your alleged god and the the dead jew zombie myth? Your buddy Austin said within the last 24 hours he had proof but he has gone silent as usual. Faith too. Anyone else see a pattern here?

      April 27, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Topher

      This website makes a LOT of assumptions.

      "If two Y chromosomes carry the same mutation, it is because they share a common paternal ancestor at some point in the past."

      Now THIS I agree with. We are all descended from Noah and Adam.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      And to believe The Babble, only one assumption is required – that yet unproven supernatural beings actually exist. Hardly an assumption at all – NOT!

      April 27, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Speaking of Y chromosomes, Topher, there is a man in South Carolina who, along with a very few relatives in West Africa, has a Y chromosome that has so little relationship to yours (I assume) that his last common male ancestor with you lived over 40,000 years ago.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Science

      Well topher...............Adam and Eve and the origin story .......LOL

      April 27, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22)"

      Isaiah calls the earth a circle, not a sphere, and yes there is a Hebrew word for sphere, or ball.

      Jeremiah 33:22, God says he'll make David's descendents as countless as the stars. So where are these 70 se.xtillion people? (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/)

      The earth may "hang upon nothing" (Job 26:7), but since when do the heavens sit upon "pillars" (Job 26:11)?

      etc...

      April 27, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • Damocles

      @ME II

      Clearly you are taking those quotes out of context!

      April 27, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • Topher

      Did ANY of you watch the video? Or do you just want to go down rabbit trails?

      April 27, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • Science

      Old pink bunny rabbit aye topher !

      Thai Researchers Discover 100-Million-Year-Old Crocodile Fossile

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwD_hjq_V7U

      April 27, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Topher

      C'mon, dude. You've posted that video before. I read your links. The least you can do is watch mine.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • Science

      You have seen this too topher ?

      Surprising New Function for Small RNAs in Evolution.........

      Apr. 19, 2013 — An international research team in including Christian Schlötterer and Alistair McGregor of the Vetmeduni Vienna has discovered a completely new mechanism by which evolution can change the appearance of an organism. The researchers found that the number of hairs on flies' legs varies according to the level of activity of a so-called microRNA.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130419075909.htm

      April 27, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "Did ANY of you watch the video? Or do you just want to go down rabbit trails?"

      Normally, I don't watch the videos, because usually they are a sill waste of time. I have however now watched yours and sure enough it was a silly waste of time.

      If a professor at Tulane cannot respond intelligently to the student's questions in the video he should not be teaching anything related to biology.

      Mathematical odds? This is a red-herring because evolution is not random chance.

      Transitional forms? There are plenty of examples: ambulocetus, tiktaalik, Australopithecus, archeopteryx....

      Evolution is bankrupt? There is plenty of evidence for evolution:
      Fossils see above
      Biochemistry like Cytochrome c
      Biogeography like Marsupials, penguins, polar bears, etc.
      Genetics like ERVs, human chromosome 2, etc.
      Observation like nylon-eating bacteria, Lenski's e. coli experiments, etc.

      April 27, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Science

      topher ..............pounding sand aye ?

      From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life

      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml

      April 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
  13. lionlylamb

    Break you the bonds of infantile regressions which hold your compassions of adoration for man to man or woman to woman. Seek therefor the bindings of opposing fledglings in order to attain a sanction of purity and wholesome love. Love not the tempters of facetiousness yet pay them their dues but do not linger too long within their encampments lest you become as them and are then lost into the darkness. Has not time itself been also as a friendly comforter in times of uncertainty pulling ever gently upon your cerebral minding ways? The physical acts dares bind up the sensual visions rendering caustic travesties to one and all who are complicit.

    April 27, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Blah, blah, fvcking blah. Go back to sleep, you mentally ill doofus.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Bill

      I kind of hope you die soon, you are a real fvckwit.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Damocles

      @bill

      Ahhh... that made me laugh!

      April 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • psych ward staff

      He was doing so well once I had wired his mouth shut, but as soon as I gave him a breather, up comes the word salad again...

      April 27, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Infantile reverberations always around are ever to be damningly found. Those who dawdle in castrating words are lowlife feeble mongers unworthy of anything that goodness envisions. Redress one's phylum trajectories away from implausible confining issues meant to be subversive and belittling to the self and to the others a wound of inflammability. Defamation of one's characters will ever become and always be done thru childish wayfarers.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Akira

      "Redress one’s phylum trajectories away from implausible confining issues meant to be subversive and belittling to the self and to the others a wound of inflammability."

      This sounds amazingly like something Jill would write. Except Jill is more erudite.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
  14. Bostontola

    Russ,
    You need to be more careful about words.

    Example: "Take for example, this classic: "I only believe what can be empirically proven."
    That statement itself CANNOT be proven empirically".

    Your quote doesn't need to be proven. It is a statement of belief. Now a statement saying " only things empirically proven have existence" needs to be proved. Scientists limit their area of study to natural, observable phenomena. Why does that limit require faith? I don't think it does. You characterize science as faith in a method. I say science utilizes a method. No faith is required. The scientific method itself has evolved, it wouldn't have if it were a faith. Facts are in opposition to your assertions.

    April 27, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Sorry Russ, I meant this as a reply to the string below.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bostontola: good points (i think you got my intent on the example).
      but to be clear, i do not characterize science as a faith in a method.

      science is a discipline of human observation. i'm a fan of science.
      putting ultimate faith in science is not science, but scientism. not a fan of scientism.
      but those are two very different things.

      science does not at any point replace religion or ethics.
      scientism is a rival religion/philosophy.
      the problem for many here is conflating the two.

      April 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
  15. Just what is the penalty for "infringing" on the 2nd Amendment?

    Wouldn't it be considered treason? So Diane Feinstein and others should be tried and imprisoned or executed, right?

    April 27, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • The real Tom

      What "infringement"?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Are slander and libel laws infringing on the first amendment?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • .

      Lmfao! Infringment? There HAS been no infringment, you gun totin' hillbilly.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
  16. Bob

    "faith" and "Salero" are the same person, selling the same old god fraud.

    April 27, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • oOo

      .. and his panic ..

      April 27, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • .

      His panic is really, REALLY a dumb character. He should knock it off, unless looking like a dimwit is the goal!!

      April 27, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • The real Tom

      REALLY dumb is putting it mildly. The tool is STILL giggling about his own moronic pun.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
  17. Bostontola

    Atheists have no book or creed, yet some claim it is a religion.
    Atheists are under-represented in prison, yet some claim their morals are inferior or lacking.

    I can understand suspending pure rationality to believe in a beautiful loving god that hasn't been disproved, but why suspend rationality with respect to the objective, observable world? Enjoy your god, but please pay attention to facts, you'll enjoy the natural world as well as the supernatural.

    April 27, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bostontola: as I said to you before...
      Nietzsche said: "it is STILL a metaphysical faith that underlies our faith in science." (my emphasis)

      science is not faith. i have no problem with science.
      but we're not talking about science. we're talking about your FAITH in science...
      which notably IS metaphysical (i.e., SUPERnatural)...

      your criticism of the metaphysical is self-refuting. pot, meet kettle.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • The real Tom

      No faith is required in science.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • oOo

      "which notably IS metaphysical"

      Don't leave out "spooky physics" or Russ thinks you missed something in the recipe.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Damocles

      Yes, please explain how someone has faith in science.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Russ,
      I'm sorry, but I can't follow your argument or discern your point. Nietzsche is a philosopher, he doesn't deal with facts at all. Fact 1: atheism is not a religion. Fact 2: atheists are not more criminal than religious people. Some on this blog take the opposite position on these facts as axioms in their arguments. Why?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • lol??

      A&A's have a cause. It's antichrist in nature.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Lol??,
      Your assertion is false since atheists don't believe in Christ or anti Christ, but even if your premise were true, having a cause does not imply a religion. There are lots of causes out there.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • Russ

      Science *presupposes* metaphysics. it takes certain things as a given.
      Did you not learn in your science classes that science operates based on 'methodological naturalism'?
      that's a philosophy, people. Nietzsche is not out to lunch here. he's one atheist calling out other atheists.

      Take for example, this classic: "I only believe what can be empirically proven."
      That statement itself CANNOT be proven empirically. it is self-refuting.
      And often, it is the primary sentiment of naturalists.

      if you don't recognize you are doing metaphysics, you will criticize others for doing the SAME THING you are doing.
      it's self-refuting.

      Science is a discipline of human observation. FAITH in that discipline is not science, but scientism.
      and look up the definitions for faith. atheism (in its various forms) certainly qualifies for most definitions.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • lol??

      Bostontola, you are a natural excuse maker. Try something more original.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • lol??

      B sayz,

      "..................Atheists are under-represented in prison.............." Slippery folk.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
    • .

      ...Or they commit less crime, idiot. Looks as if the "I got GAWD" defense isn't working.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • oOo

      Many things grew out of a historical metaphysics. In a large part because back when everyone was afraid of their shadow, so many more things were lumped into the category. The useful things, science has used to its benefit. But it has obviously moved beyond much of the silly spooky stuff. Comparing types of empirical proof to saying a statement cannot be empirically proved is true, but to a degree of absurdity to make a point. This would be similar to Chad pigeon-holing the definition of something like atheist to Webster's dictionary – it serves no purpose for discussions her among those who understand the different flavors.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • The real Tom

      lolly doesn't understand what Bostontola posted.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • oOo

      correction – for discussions here among

      April 27, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • lol??

      A problem occurs at the end of Jesus' 1000 year reign. Slippery folk.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Russ

      @ oOo:
      that's historically inaccurate & rather ethnocentric. to claim (as you are) that people back then were all just gullible fails to recognize that modern skepticism traces its roots to this very Hellenistic culture to find its proponents.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • .

      If you're talking about the Christians who are the majority in prisons, lolllly, yeah they're slippery folk. They had a lousy lawyer.

      April 27, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. You and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: as I posted on the other thread where our conversation began...

      @ Bob: i've given you both entire scholarly books as well as links to articles. i've encouraged you to (of your own accord) look up critical reviews of said resources. there is 2000 years of scholarship to peruse... but instead of taking any of those avenues, you want me to recount thousands upon thousands of pages on this blog?

      i've given you the resources. it's clear you won't believe me no matter what i say. i'm not going to take hours to prepare an essay for you to throw it aside as "not scholarship" if i did – despite the fact that i've pointed you to the scholars in the field.

      stop parroting Marshall Brain & go read – even go read the critics of the stuff i've given you. the conversation won't go forward until you've got something other to say than just "but Marshall Brain says."

      April 27, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 27, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Science

      Russ and you too lol??

      From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life

      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml

      April 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • Ellen

      Bob, the case that it appears that Russ is trying to make to you is that he has thousands of pages of material that he can reference that support his case. However, if I could try to help here, that just sounds like an appeal to authority, albeit maybe a bit veiled but still wrapped with "scholarly". In a similar vein, I'm sure that any one of us could find perhaps millions of pages of scientific papers that support evolution and other key scientific breakthroughs that blow away pretty much any religion. Regardless, volume and fighting over numbers of pages isn't the answer. If Russ can't tell you what his "testable evidence" is, and I don't think opinion papers count as that, then I almost hate to say it but Russ does not appear to have a maintainable position here.

      April 27, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: copying & repasting an unsubstantiated argument doesn't suddenly make it one.

      @ Ellen: good point. which is why I referenced the fact that this conversation (which has been quite lengthy) is ongoing on a different page – where I *have* been posting those arguments.

      no, the goal of citing scholarship is not merely an appeal to authoritarianism as it is to point out how lacking in substance Bob's argument is. *I* offered to him the fact that there are scholars he might actually somewhat agree with – but, as I expect him to find, even they point out the hollowness in his current argument.

      point being, in attempting to re-create the wheel (as he is), he's unnecessarily re-tracing paths that have already been thoroughly dealt with. but he appears unwilling to move forward in that discussion. just go check the other thread & you'll see what I mean (even if you still disagree with my contentions).

      April 28, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Science: you continue to respond in ways that make clear you are not hearing the substance of the argument.
      science *CANNOT* speak to metaphysics – it *presupposes* it.
      just go read the criticisms against Hawking's "Grand Design" – from BOTH theists & atheists.
      Hawking gets especially mocked for attempting to claim quantum physics brings something out of nothing.

      for example...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Design_(book)#Critical_reactions

      and here's a particular scathing review from "The Economist"
      http://www.economist.com/node/16990802
      "Once upon a time it was the province of philosophy to propose ambitious and outlandish theories in advance of any concrete evidence for them. Perhaps science, as Professor Hawking and Mr Mlodinow practice it in their airier moments, has indeed changed places with philosophy, though probably not quite in the way that they think."

      April 28, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • Bob

      Russ, you get an award for the biggest wimp out of the day, you despiicable coward. Again, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods and false claims already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 28, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bob: you're making me look like a prophet. copy, paste, copy, paste.
      do you have any other response? can you cite a source besides Marshall Brain?

      April 29, 2013 at 8:26 am |
    • The real Tom

      That's not all he's making you look like, Russ.

      April 29, 2013 at 8:31 am |
    • Science

      Hey Russ..........share this Sunday when you attend mass .........help the real world !

      Learning is fun with facts.......................... and facts work when teaching children.!

      Atheist Prof. Peter Higgs: Stop calling Higgs boson the ‘God particle’

      Professor Peter Higgs said recently that there is no God and so people should stop referring to the theoretical partial that
      bears his name as the “God particle.”

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/08/atheist-prof-peter-higgs-stop-calling-higgs-bosen-the-god-particle/

      Now the question is .........do they have the ethics needed to carry out that mission ?

      April 29, 2013 at 8:36 am |
    • Bob

      Russ, you get an award for the biggest wimp out of the day, you despicable coward. Again, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods and false claims already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist. Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up, you coward.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 29, 2013 at 9:50 am |
    • Russ

      @ Science: go read the Economist article I posted above. your citations show you still are not hearing the argument. I'm telling you we're arguing about the foundation of the house & you keep posting articles about the color of the dr.apes.

      April 29, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Russ, the problem is that bob is so committed to his opinion that he cannot see the context under which he has formed it. As I understand your contention, or more correctly as I see the context by which it is argued against, you are not making an argument against science at all. Quite the contrary. What you are attempting, quite accurately, to show is that whether specific exercises in science prove valid or fail, is that scientism is a philosophical belief that science, in and of itself is sufficient to answer ALL questions. When a theory fails, science discards it and stipulates, "we may know that in the future". Faith in science, in that case becomes "religious" in nature, even more so when the flawed science is adhered to dogmatically. Religion and science, as has been repeatedly pointed out are not conflicting disciplines. They respond to different questions from different perspectives. Religion can fail when it externally imposes doctrine onto empirical matters and science fails when it presumes that with enough data, "goodness" will result.

      If I heard you correctly, I just wanted you to know that someone did.

      April 29, 2013 at 11:39 am |
    • Bob

      Russ, you get an award for the biggest wimp out of the day, you utterly despicable coward. Again, enough of your bullshit spew and your falsehoods already. Put up the evidence or cease and desist.

      Again, you and I can both go on all day citing references that the other will not agree with. Let's make this simple:

      Present your testable evidence, in your own words, for why you believe in your ludicrous, murderous, vicious sky fairy stories. So far, you have not been able to, and you have dodged that request in myriad slippery ways, you coward.

      Enough already. Your incessant blathering about your silly god fable is merely tiresome. Put up or shut up, you pathetic coward.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 30, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
  18. tallulah13

    The trolls are out in force. I wonder if there really are that many losers posting here, or if it's just one really inspired loser.

    April 27, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • lol??

      doesn't take much to lead the lost.

      April 27, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • No T13, the only losers are you, TP, and TTPS

      Lake of Fire=Loser's destiny

      April 27, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • common sense

      who the F died and made you an authority on anything if there are any stinking, gutter slime trolls around here you'd be the #1 candidate.

      April 27, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • The real Tom

      Well, looky there! It's common stupidity spewing all its love and compassion.

      April 27, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      When all else fails resort to threats....it is like a child on the playground who threatens another kid with "my dad will beat you up"...

      "My god is going to beat you up....na, na, na"

      April 27, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Hm. I still can't tell how many loser trolls there are. I guess I'd have to pay more attention to them to discern how many, but frankly they're just not that interesting.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • .

      Out of 600 comments 400 by one band of trolls.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
  19. faith

    "You would think the Lord's wrath would be more focused on those countries for his Friday Fry Day..." dodo

    why don't u apply for the god adviser position? u have much to offer him and u do it all day anyway.

    April 27, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Your god sure could use one, most people (including his believers) have better morality than what is attributed to him.....

      April 27, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Bob

      "faith" and "Salero" are the same person, selling the same old god nonsense.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • .

      We already know faith and biggles are one in the same inbred hiller.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
  20. Dictionary

    In an effort to appear superior, real Tom does not always get it right,often is in a "supine" posture......

    April 27, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • The real Tom

      Aww, poor Salero. You finally managed to look up the word, did you? Now tell us all, what is "supine ignorance", you dipsh!t?

      April 27, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • Dictionary

      Awe honey is anger your only confirmation of your significance? What a pity

      April 27, 2013 at 11:33 am |
    • The real Tom

      Look up "awe," darling.

      April 27, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • The real Tom

      By the way, dumbfvck, why would I be angry? I'm having a blast watching you trip over yourself. It's a way to spend a few minutes chuckling at a kid who is bored and lonely and can't get a girl.

      April 27, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Dictionary

      I see..so verbal bully and a superior sense of correct grammar on some lame blog is your form of recreation, again a pity

      April 27, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • faith

      dodo don't get angry.

      she resides on a higher plane of existence than all others. she is basically angelic in nature and must be vigilant as she judges everyone beneath her se so she can offer helpful darts of hate and force u to grow and become more divine as she requires

      April 27, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • faith

      notice how condescending she is.

      "The real Tom
      Aww, poor Salero. You finally managed to look up the word, did you? Now tell us all, what is "supine ignorance", you dipsh!t?"

      April 27, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • The real Tom

      Does it sting, honey-pie?

      April 27, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Dictionary

      Beyond making sure we all spell check and develop syntax correctly, Tommie girl snipes at others without even using her said intelligence for informed discussion. Her reasoning is we are far to puerile and beneath her to waste her time,yet she prowls this blog as her self admitted recreation!

      April 27, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • The real Tom

      Yup. Got a problem with that?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • lol??

      Diction,

      There is a very good reason the Lord ordered the women to obey their hubbies. He knows His creatures.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • The rebels will be purged

      TTPS, Are you aware that those who bully kids who commit suicide are being held accountable? Are you proud to be a bully? Does it give you a sense of superiority over others? Our lives are a wisp of smoke in the air. Here one second-gone the next. Do you really find the lake of fire to be that appealing? If you don't repent of your wicked ways, that is exactly where you are going.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Is that so? I guess you would know. If your girlfriend is inflatable, of course you have dominion over "her."

      April 27, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • The real Tom

      How many different monikers are you planning to use today, honey-bunch?

      If you don't like my posts, don't read them. See how easy that is?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Dictionary

      You have revealed more about your character than you know Tommie girl. Your anger and lack of basic respect for your fellow man is evident. You are nothing more than an arrogant bully, and by self admission, you don't care. Got it, that is why I have profound pity for you

      April 27, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • Bob

      "faith" and "Salero" and "Dictionary" look to be the same person, selling the same old god fraud (and doing a rather poor job of it).

      April 27, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Goshers, I'm just overcome by emotion at your kind words, sweet cheeks!

      You seem to have a problem figuring out how to use the "off" button. Do you listen to songs you don't like? Read books you hate? Watch movies you abhor?

      April 27, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Yeah, he's pretty lame as trolls go.

      I guess it's that "supine ignorance" and 'awe' that get him all scrambled.

      April 27, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Akira

      "Supine" must have been today's word on Dictionary's "Word Of The Day" calendar.

      April 27, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • Science

      I will post 1 video to yiour 2 Russ

      History Channel's "The Bible" Parts 3 & 4 – In Under 11 Minutes!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTRn28iZD_g

      April 27, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Science

      Wrong place but 2 with one stone works I guess Russ too !

      April 27, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.