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 The Branch Davidians, a religious sect led by David Koresh, clashed with federal agents in 1993 in Waco, Texas.
April 28th, 2013
06:00 AM ET
When religious beliefs become evil: 4 signsBy John Blake, CNN (CNN) - An angry outburst at a mosque. The posting of a suspicious YouTube video. A friendship with a shadowy imam. Those were just some of the signs that Tamerlan Tsarnaev, accused of masterminding the Boston Marathon bombings, had adopted a virulent strain of Islam that led to the deaths of four people and injury of more than 260. But how else can you tell that someone’s religious beliefs have crossed the line? The answer may not be as simple you think, according to scholars who study all brands of religious extremism. The line between good and evil religion is thin, they say, and it’s easy to make self-righteous assumptions. “When it’s something we like, we say it’s commitment to an idea; when it’s something we don’t like, we say it’s blind obedience,” said Douglas Jacobsen, a theology professor at Messiah College in Pennsylvania. Yet there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter “There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Here are four warning signs: 1. I know the truth, and you don’t. On the morning of July 29, 1994, the Rev. Paul Hill walked up to John Britton outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, and shot the doctor to death. Hill was part of a Christian extremist group called the Army of God, which taught that abortion was legalized murder. Hill’s actions were motivated by a claim that virtually all religions espouse: We have the truth that others lack. Those claims can turn deadly when they become absolute and there is no room for interpretation, Kimball says. “Absolute claims can quickly move into a justification of violence against someone who rejects that claim,” Kimball said. “It’s often a short step.” Healthy religions acknowledge that sincere people can disagree about even basic truths, Kimball says. The history of religion is filled with examples of truths that were once considered beyond questioning but are no longer accepted by all followers: inerrancy of sacred scripture, for example, or the subjugation of women and sanctioning of slavery. If someone like Hall believes that they know God’s truth and they cannot be wrong, watch out, Kimball says. “Authentic religious truth claims are never as inflexible as zealous adherents insist,” he writes in “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Yet there’s a flip side to warnings about claiming absolute truth: Much of religion couldn’t exist without them, scholars say. Many of history’s greatest religious figures – Moses, Jesus, the Prophet Mohammed – all believed that they had discovered some truth, scholars say. Ordinary people inflamed with a sense of self-righteousness have made the same claim and done good throughout history, says Carl Raschke, a theology professor at the University of Denver in Colorado. The Protestant Reformation was sparked by an angry German monk who thought he had the truth, Raschke says. “Martin Luther’s disgust at the worldliness of the papacy in the early 1500s inspired him to become a radical revolutionary whose ideas overturned the entire political structure in Europe,” Raschke said. So how do you tell the difference between the healthy claims of absolute truth and the deadly? Scholars say to look at the results: When people start hurting others in the name of their religious truth, they’ve crossed the line. 2. Beware the charismatic leader. It was one of the deadliest terrorist attacks in Japanese history. In March 1995, a religious sect called Aum Shinrikyo released a deadly nerve gas in a Tokyo subway station, leaving 12 people dead and 5,000 injured. Two months later, Japanese police found Shoko Asahara, the sect’s founder, hiding in a room filled with cash and gold bars. Kimball, who tells the story of the sect in “When Religion Becomes Evil,” says Asahara had poisoned the minds of his followers years before. Asahara demanded unquestioned devotion from members of his sect and isolated followers in communities where they were told that they no longer needed to think for themselves, Kimball says. Any religion that limits the intellectual freedom of its followers, he says, has become dangerous. “When you start to get individuals who are the sole interpreters of truth, you get people who follow them blindly." Charismatic leaders, though, often don’t start off being cruel. Jim Jones, who led the mass suicide of his followers in South America, was a gifted speaker who built an interracial church in San Francisco that did much good in the community. Few people at the beginning of his ministry could predict what he would become. As time went on, though, his charisma turned cruel as he tolerated no questions to his authority and became delusional. “Charismatic leadership is important, but in healthy religions, there’s always a process where questions are encouraged,” Kimball said. Weaning followers away from corrupt charismatic leaders and bad religion can take years, but it can be done if one knows how to speak their language, says Ed Husain, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt will often deploy imams to reach out to young men in prison who have adopted “Islamism,” or extreme forms of Islam sanctioning violence against civilians, says Husain, who has written about Muslim extremism. These Muslim clerics know the Quran better than the extremists and can use their knowledge to reach extremists in a place that logic and outsiders cannot penetrate, Husain said. “The antidote to extremism is religion itself,” Husain said. “The problem is not to take Islam out of the debate but to use Islam to counter Islamism.” 3. The end is near. In 1970, an unknown pastor from Texas wrote a book called “The Late, Great Planet Earth.” The book, which linked biblical prophecy with political events like Israel’s victory in the 1967 Six-Day War, predicted the imminent return of an antichrist and the end of the world. Author Hal Lindsey’s book has sold an estimated 15 million copies and spawned a genre of books like the “Left Behind” series. Many people are fascinated by the idea that the heavens will open soon because the end is near. That end-times theology can turn lethal, though, when a follower decides that he or she will speed up that end-time by conducting some dramatic or violent act, says John Alverson, chairman of the theology department at Carlow University in Pittsburgh. “A religious terrorist mistakenly believes that God has ordained or called him or her to establish the will of God on Earth now, not gradually and not according to the slow and finicky free will of other humans,” Alverson said. Yet this impulse to see God’s intervention in human affairs now and not in some distant future can also be good, he says. There are vibrant religious communities that teach that political and economic injustice must be addressed now. Liberation theology, for example, was a movement among pastors and theologians in Latin America that called for justice for the poor now, not in some future apocalyptic event, Alverson says. “Hope is a good breakfast but not much of a supper,” Alverson said. “We can’t just live on the hope that justice will happen; we have to actually experience justice from time to time so that our hope can continue.” 4. The end justifies the means. It was one of the biggest scandals the Roman Catholic Church ever faced, and the repercussions are still being felt today. In January 2002, the Boston Globe published a story about Father John Geoghan, a priest who had been moved around various parishes after Catholic leaders learned that he had abused children. It was later revealed that Catholic officials had quietly paid at least $10 million to settle lawsuits against Geoghan. Kimball says the Catholic scandal revealed another sign that a faith has turned toxic: Religious figures start justifying doing something wrong for a higher good. “The common theme was trying to protect the integrity of the church,” Kimball said of some Catholic leaders who covered up the crimes. “You get all of these rationalizations that we can’t let this scandal bring the whole church down, so we have to pay off this family and send the priests off to rehab.” Religion is supposed to be a force for good. Still, it’s common that everyone from suicide bombers to venal church figures finds ways to justify their behavior in the name of some higher good. Those rationalizations are so pervasive that religious movements that avoid them stand out, scholars say. Jacobsen, the theology professor from Messiah College, cited the civil rights movement. The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and his fellow activists renounced violence, even as they were attacked and sometimes murdered. “They were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in, but what’s incredible is, they practiced not retaliating when they suffered violence,” he said. “Those people really believed that God created everyone equal, and they were committed to the point of death.” In some ways, it’s easy to say we would never adopt a form of religion that’s evil. But when we use the word “evil” to describe those who kill in the name of their faith, we’re already mimicking what we condemn, Jacobsen says. In his new book, “No Longer Invisible: Religion in University Education,” Jacobson writes that calling a religion evil is dangerous because “bad or wrong actions can be corrected, but typically evil needs to be destroyed.” CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories “To label someone or something as evil is to demonize it, putting it in a category of otherness where the rules of normal life do not apply, where the end often justifies almost any means,” Jacobson writes. And when we do that, we don’t have to read about radical imams or look at angry YouTube videos to see how easy it is for someone to drift toward religious extremism, he says. We need only look at ourselves. soundoff (3,810 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKxk9TvyJrs
Hell is trivialized when it is used as a common curse word. To use the word lightly may be a halfhearted human attempt to take the concept lightly or to treat it in an amusing way. We tend to joke about things most frightening to us in a futile effort to declaw and defang them, reducing their threatening power.
There is no biblical concept more grim or terror-invoking than the idea of hell. It is so unpopular with us that few would give credence to it at all except that it comes to us from the teaching of Christ Himself.
Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus. It is this doctrine, perhaps more than any other, that strains even the Christian’s loyalty to the teaching of Christ. Modern Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesus’ own teaching. The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die. These graphic images of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?
I suspect they are symbols, but I find no relief in that. We must not think of them as being merely symbols. It is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image. If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain. That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols.
A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
No matter how we analyze the concept of hell it often sounds to us as a place of cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, we can take any comfort in the concept of hell, we can take it in the full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.
Perhaps the most frightening aspect of hell is its eternality. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, “Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.” (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries, 1991], 75.)
dodo, there is no hell. You're spending way too much of your time fretting about a silly figment of your imagination. Grow up.
Threats of eternal punishement betrays a weak arguement.
Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief. Understanding this is crucial to our drive to appreciate the work of Christ and to preach His gospel.
Summary
1.The suffering of hell is beyond any experience of misery found in this world.
2.Hell is clearly included in the teaching of Jesus.
3.If the biblical descriptions of hell are symbols, then the reality will be worse than the symbols.
4.Hell is the presence of God in His wrath and judgment.
5.There is no cruelty in hell. Hell will be a place of perfect justice.
6.Hell is eternal. There is no escape through either repentance or annihilation.
Biblical passages for reflection: Matthew 8:11-12, Mark 9:42-48, Luke 16:19-31, Jude 1:3-13, Revelation 20:11-15.
dodo, why should anyone rely on The Babble for anything when it has never been shown that The Babble is the word of some god? Without support for the truth of The Babble, hell is just some cult's bullsh!t threat to entice simple minded converts.
Explaining your weak arguement in great detail does not suddenly make it a good one
i love sam stone
all goes to the authorities and the ADL
"Blessed are the Cheesemakers
A god that would purposely kill everyone in Noahs flood would not have a problem with a little thing like a Tsunami.
Might makes right!"
ASK SAM THE STONE
Ask him what?
sambo wants xtards to shoot themselves in their heads and not one god-hating demon rebukes his fat behind
What in the world does that have to do with my post?
Rebuke him for what? He is not threatening anybody. He is merely pushing members of the dead jew zombie cult to think about what their beliefs really mean. If the ultimate goal is to be in the presence of some god and/or some dead dude named jesus, what's wrong with exploring how strong someone's beliefs are and how quickest to get there?
Religious types and all their leaders have avoided for years, making any attempt to justify the Tsunami massacres by the same loving god that was able to part the red sea.
Still no answer. So much for believing in that sort of god.
It has happened just as the evil maniacal god has planned. Wa ah ah ahhhhhh....
Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
faith,
Why not quote about judging others or the Golden Rule? They are far more important. Many Christians don't seem to be familiar with them.
This is incorrect. C.S. Lewis himself who was an atheist for much of his adult life before becoming a Christian writes extensively on this very topic.
To Tony:
This is incorrect. C.S. Lewis himself who was an atheist for much of his adult life before becoming a Christian writes extensively on this very topic
A god that would purposely kill everyone in Noahs flood would not have a problem with a little thing like a Tsunami.
Might makes right!
There is something i don't get from atheists. On one hand they say that there is no God and on the other one they are saying that a God who destroyed the whole world with a flood is a bad one. Which one do you believe in atheists?
Hotdogs,
You are the ones claiming that God torturously killed every pregnant woman, child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth.
Comments from atheists and agnostics concerning that is based on your belief that it actually happened.
And C. S. Lewis is a definitive authority on religion and the existence of god because? Last I heard, not a single believer has provided factual, independent, verifiable and objective evidence for any god or a divine jesus.
Seems his best credential is switching to being a believer, possibly because of old age and dementia setting in.
just wait until the man in the long black coat comes for you
Why do you fight something that you believe to be a fairytale? That's pretty insane to me.
Hotdogs,
The "fighting" comes because people who believe in that also use their book to HYPOCRITICALLY deny rights to others or to pick on pro-choice people by pretending the Bible ever mentions abortion.
What proof do you have to say that the bible is a fairytale?
Hotdogs,
"Why do you fight something that you believe to be a fairytale?"
Non-believers do not believe that a god or gods exist. Believers, however, DO exist, and their push to control many aspects of society according to their fantasies and superst'itions is what non-believers take issue with.
Hotdogs,
I'm not sure that your comment is directed to me, but I've never said the Bible is a "fairytale". It is a collection of many good morals that also contains errors, contradictions, hypocrisy and nonsense.
Have you ever heard of respect for other people point of view? Why do you bother to fight about something you don't believe in. If they are wrong, let them be. And if you are wrong so be it. It's not complicated.
There is something i don't get from atheists. On one hand they say that there is no God and on the other one they are saying that a God who destroyed the whole world with a flood is a bad one. Which one do you believe in atheists?
When I refer to God I'm In no way am I acknowledging his existence. I'm simply pointing out that if a god of such did exist, why on earth would you want to worship it considering how evil and immoral it can be.
Hotdogs
"Have you ever heard of respect for other people point of view? Why do you bother to fight about something you don't believe in. If they are wrong, let them be. And if you are wrong so be it. It's not complicated."
No one believes in the concept of the Golden Rule more than me. I wouldn't be on here if it wasn't for Christian hypocrites who ignor the Golden Rule and try to deprive others of equal rights or pretend the Bible condemns things (like abortion) that it never mentions. Talk about "respect"? Start with Christians and the Golden Rule.
Hotdogs,
It may be real difficult for you to understand but it is possible to take a fictional character and discuss the merits and ethics of actions described in a story.
I don't for a secong believe the god of the bible is any more "real" than Thor is. But even if that god was real I wouldn't worship him. It is a way to point out to people who claim that god is "all loving" really isn't.
Franks
Hotdogs,
"Why do you fight something that you believe to be a fairytale?"
Non-believers do not believe that a god or gods exist. Believers, however, DO exist, and their push to control many aspects of society according to their fantasies and superst'itions is what non-believers take issue with."
lol
all nazi-atheists push for the same legislation to set the oppressed free. they shoot any god-hater who don't believe people should be allowed to marry animals. they believe the age of consent should be discarded.
they try to convince xtards god ain't real so they will vote wit dem. but, enough is enough says sambo and they plan to use violence to end chritians
report each and every threatening, hate-speech post that saturate this pig-sty.
This is like a guy told me once that he bought a brand new corvette but he never showed it to me. I guess he probably lied. But am i to fight with him if he did or not. If he did then good for him and if he didn't then so be it. I'm not going to lose some sleep over it. Why does this tooth fairy god did to you so you're losing sleep over him. Or is it just a fixation that you have? Or is it like a h0m0phobe that is probably a gay person and not knowing or is afraid of his desire for other men. Does this means that atheists hate god to a point where they are afraid to admit that they love and believe in him?
"Does this means that atheists hate god to a point where they are afraid to admit that they love and believe in him?"
Nope. Only Christians and believers can hate God.
i'm sorry but, i have never heard a christian saying anything bad about God. I do hear and see some comments from atheists who does.
Hotdogs,
It would really be a waste of time for every atheist and agnostic having to start every comment with: "if there really was a God". It really shouldn't be necessary for you, should it?
I think it's funny Christians want everyone to pay attention to their religion, they want it included in laws and gov't and public school, they put up billboards and have TV channels dedicated to it. And then when atheists pay attention they say "you shouldn't even care, why not just ignore us".
I have read comments from both sides. I am not a scientist but i do know numbers. I have seen more negative comments from atheists than people who believe in a god. I have not been convince that atheist or agnostic people are fair when it comes to the meaning of the word respect of people opinions. I am sorry but atheists gave me a dim hope about their world of atheism. I guess i will pass on this one. Maybe next time if atheists people finds better ways to prove their point.
Hotdogs,
I think that most atheists and agnostics couldn't care less what religion you practice in your home or place of worship as long as "you" don't try to force it onto others. WE ALL should follow the concept of the Golden Rule, but it's more Christians than atheists who ignor it when it comes to others rights.
Sorry but i have not seen anyone forcing anything down your throat. But i have seen many attacks done by atheists on other people. I still try to figure out what was the cause of all this commotion. I'm afraid to have to say that, atheists by their own behavior have not give a clean representation of themselves.
Beliefs shouldn't get automatic respect, they have to stand or fall on their own merits. I can and do respect people that believe things to be true that are non-sense. I don't respect the belief though.
If your neighbor believed his thoughts were being stolen by satelites orbiting earth and therefor wears a tinfoil hat at all times would you respect that belief?
Hotdogs
"Sorry but i have not seen anyone forcing anything down your throat."
So you apparently have missed all the Christians screaming that we must have the Ten Commandments in every classroom. Apparently you missed all the Christians insisting we must have THEIR prayers at sporting events. Did you miss all the Christians calling doctors "murderers" based on a fantasy about what the Bible says? How about all the HYPOCRITICAL Christians denying equal rights to gays?
Have you been paying attention?
You said:Beliefs shouldn't get automatic respect, they have to stand or fall on their own merits. I'm afraid that sound a little extremist. It really look like jihads fighters ready to fight. That is probably the reason why you are tainting your image.
I haven't seen an atheist force anything down your throat either. Religion makes a claim. Atheism is a response to that claim. I don't think all believers are stupid. I think their claims are baseless and should be addressed as such. I don't attack people, I attack their arguements. Religion has set up a system where if their religious idea, belief or claim is attacked it is the same as a personal attack. You are a perfect example of that mindset. Theists want their religious beliefs to get a "free pass" in the marketplace of ideas (and make no mistake, that is what they are.....ideas)....to bad.
What exactly is "extreme" about arguing the merits of a belief? I am not saying believers shouldn't be allowed to believe.
I went back and read all the comments again. Not all the pages but only this one. If i do a calculation of all the comments made and then i compare who said what. I came to the conclusion that atheists people are really pushing hard on those who believe in some kind of deity or a god. I still see no point in fighting at about something atheists don't believe in. It remind me of someone outside trying to fight against the wind on a windy day. It just don't make sense at all. I believe scientists have better things to do. I don't believe scientists would lose that amount of energy that will lead them nowhere. Science is not about fighting against a fairytale, it is about exploring new ideas about sciences and discoveries.
I have honestly tried to explain it to you. Beliefs matter. Beliefs don't exist in a vacu.um. Beliefs inform our actions. I find it disingenious that believers claim that their belief is the most important thing in the world.....until someone stands up and criticizes it...then all of a sudden the belief shouldn't be important to the critic. You want religious belief to be given a special class of idea that is beyond reproach because somehow you have the idea the belief doesn't really matter. I am saying they do matter. Kind of an odd turn of the table don't you think?
The protests come every day from the religious, and they go something like this:
* "Why spend your time disproving God?"
* "Why not just let people believe what they want to believe?"
* "Why can't you leave religion alone?"
As one YouTube commenter said recently, "No one can explain to me why it is so important to convince theists to abandon their beliefs."
The answer is simple.
Religion permeates our culture, shows up on our doorsteps with literature, scriptures and threats of eternal dam.nation, influences our science books, contaminates our political systems, indoctrinates our children and postulates that its doctrine must be followed, lest we be destroyed in body, in soul, or both.
Non-believers are simply responding to the avalanche of religious messages that bears down upon us daily.
Religion gets carte blanche to be as vocal as it wants, to knock on our doors and accost us in our homes, in our places of work, in our personal and professional lives. Believers are charged with a life mission to preach, teach, disciple, shout it from the mountaintops and to "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Religion...is everywhere.
Ask yourself. When's the last time an atheist rang your doorbell with the Good News of Humanism? How often do you find Richard Dawkins books in the dresser drawers of your hotel rooms? When was the last atheist temple erec.ted in your neighborhood? Have you ever attended an atheist revival? Has atheism demanded 10% of your household income? How many dedicated atheist television channels come through your satellite dish? How many atheist verses were you instructed to memorize as a child? When's the last time someone thanked a FARMER (or even the cook) at the dinner table instead of God?
On a more radical front, what's the name of the last atheist who sawed the head off of an "infidel?" Or sentenced a shrouded woman to death for displeasing an oppressive husband? Or strapped explosives to his belt in order to kill hundreds in a public square? Or publicly hung a gay person for his lifestyle?
It's everywhere. Religion is a pounding drum that has gone mostly unanswered for a long, long time. And religion is not satisfied with merely existing quietly in the homes and hearts of the faithful. Its very nature compels the believer to proselytize, preach, promote, convince, convert and prevail. If you play on the team of the religious, your game plan is to stay, always, on offense.
Throughout our history, those who raise a simple hand of protest against these advances have been portrayed as the real problem. Religion has attempted to marginalize and defeat legitimate questions and concerns by indignantly portraying any resistors as misguided, immoral, rudderless, angry, miserable, lost and alone.
And when skepticism challenges wildly improbable (or impossible) stories found in the bible, the Qur'an and other holy books, the religious wail, "Why can't you just leave us alone?"
The irony is thick.
And religion impedes curiosity and inhibits learning, as the much-maligned Creation Museum proves. It stymies critical thinking. It stretches us to believe the unbelievable. And it poisons the foundational teachings we are using to train up the generations of tomorrow.
This is a counter-argument to ensure that the cacophony of superst.ition does not go unchallenged. And if your belief system is so undeniable, so factual, so provable, so real and so true, certainly it can withstand the opposing viewpoints presented here and elsewhere. Certainly, it can survive the acid tests.
Just remember. Religion began the argument. It amplifies itself before the world. And it threatens all mankind with punishment upon its rejection.
And as long as religion insists on fixing human beings who are not broken, we will respond with the evidence that we are not the problem.
Hotdogs,
"I came to the conclusion that atheists people are really pushing hard on those who believe in some kind of deity or a god."
They are pushing hard because believers are pushing hard against them to force their beliefs upon them. If Christians didn't do that, there would be far less push-back.
It appears that this is a one-way street to you. You apparently see no problem with believers trying to force their religion into schools, public events and laws, but see a problem when non-believers try to convince them of some of the folly in what they are using as logic to try to justify their actions.
The "elephant in the room" is that the implied bottom line from believers is that if you don't do exactly as they say, then you are such a lowlife that you deserve to spend eternity burning in hell. Sugar-coat it all you want, that is the truth.
AtheistsMorons,
"I refer to religious associations simply because they're the only one that does something for the needy people. All other charities are for other causes."
Once again you have proven how little you know about the subject. Why not start doing some research so you won't continue to embarass yourself with your lack of knowledge?
Atheists like George Carlin and Bill Maher have been active supporters of Comic Relief USA which has raised over $50 million to help needy Americans.
Bill Maher is Agnostic
Truth,
Thank you for the correction. I based my comments on the many anti-religion comments he has made, but he officially calls himself an agnostic.
those who believe in imaginary men in the sky are delusional.
delusional thinking is a form of mental illness.
these people who profess these delusional beliefs should be prohibited from voting, serving on a jury, running for or holding any public office, purchasing or owning firearms, teaching public school, or having contact with any children under the age of 18.
tolerance of religious idiocy is worse than religious idiocy itself – and it has to end.
enough is enough.
Well you do know that "Darwinism" and most psychiatry science is based on Charle's Darwin who's pretty much a nut case right?
http://www.icr.org/article/was-charles-darwin-psychotic-study-his-mental-heal/
As they say it takes a fool to lead another...
mentally deficient retards like "r4t" are mired in their stunted understanding of darwinism, and demonstrate their complete lack of education.
for the good of humanity and future generations – these are the people who need to be sterilized.
again – tolerance of religious idiocy has to end... the sooner the better.
@The Anvil
You can't read neither can you? Ever heard the saying that says "If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say anything at all..."???
http://www.icr.org/article/was-charles-darwin-psychotic-study-his-mental-heal/
I know its a very complicated process but I'll break it down for you...
1>Highlight the link with the mouse
2>Right click and go to COPY
3>open a browser and click in the URL bar
4>Right click and go to PASTE
5>Press Enter
No I KNOW its alot of complicated information at once but take it one step at the time...
Your "source" is the Inst.tute for Creation Research?
Why not just use Ray Comfort's Banana arguement?
@Blessed are the cheesemakers
Would you prefer a quote from Darwin's own autobiography?
[quote]"Whilst at the day school, or before that time, I acted cruelly, for I beat a puppy I believe, simply from enjoying the sense of power; but the beating could not have been severe, for the puppy did not howl, of which I feel sure as the spot was near to the house.[/quote]
whenever anyone cites the institute for creation research, they show themselves to be incredibly retarded idiots who would best serve the world if they were to remove themselves from it.
the morons at the icr impoverish humanity and propagate magnificent stupidity.
it's difficult to look beyond the atrocious grammar that barely literate individuals like "r4t" spew, but when they immediately mention the icr – i just shut them off. people like this are simply beneath contempt.
tolerance of religious idiocy has to end – enough is enough.
Liars for Jesus
Sam the stone wishes all Christians nothing but the best. She is very sorry for the demented, twisted, evil, perverted, horrible, rotten, atrocious, belittling and untrue garbage that flowed from her enormous mouth. She apologizes for all her lying, evil, awful, immature co-big mouths who never asked her to shut up.
sam is hot dorothy
Atheist look at religion and find flaws... I'm starting to believe they truly descend from monkeys... All they do is look at others to find fleas...
True is I'd rather believe I come from a supreme being than a ass scratching monkey... I'd rather have hope than narcissistic tendencies toward self admiration and megalomaniac belief that I'm oh so great and intelligent when in reality science is still not capable of explaining why friggin got water freeze faster than cold water...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9358486/Royal-Society-of-Chemistry-offers-1000-for-anyone-who-can-explain-why-hot-water-freezes-faster-than-cold-water.html
If they can't explain the simplest things at they're reach how would they explain something beyond the realm of understanding...
Oh you're so special.. you want to feel so special. Have to accept a bs story to do so. Congrats.
"hot water freeze faster than cold water...'. .
Errrr. . . nope. Hot water has to reduce in temperature to reach the point where the cold water started and so both would be equal and the cold water has a head start. It's only at a faster RATE, not TIME
I'd rather believe that I'll live forever. Does that make it true?
See the main thing with Atheist is they are quicker to try to sound intelligent than to take a look and realize whats under their own eyes... I'll repost in hope this time Einstein over there learn to read...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9358486/Royal-Society-of-Chemistry-offers-1000-for-anyone-who-can-explain-why-hot-water-freezes-faster-than-cold-water.html
Have you read the winner's report? If yes, why do believe that the hot water / cold water question is simple?
@avoiceinmyhead so which one is it you believe in? Creation or Science? Creation says God took a eternal soul and "clothed" it in flesh and at the time of the death of the flesh the soul lives on...
Science "Rule of Energy Conservation" says an energy cannot be created nor destroyed it only changes state... an that at the most basic level human are made 100% from atoms which is 100% pure energy... So wait we're self aware beings composed at 100% from atoms which are pure energy...
Sounds like a cleaver way of saying the same thing as the bible doesn't it?
r4t,
You really aren't going to try to link science to a book that supports unicorns, non-consumed burning bushes, and the nonsense of Noah's Ark, are you?
I just don't get it. Atheists doesn't believe in a God. On the other hand they are using Bible events to prove a point.
@Observer
No I'm just pointing out the fact that a huge mother f'ing kaboum created everything as we know...
no one is claiming man descended from monkeys, r4t. try to get your story straight
"Bible events to prove a point."
To prove the absurdity of it maybe; to prove the contradictions within it maybe. Given that the bible is the only book christians have to prove their point/god, it is the only book we have to show how extremely crazy the belief can be and given that most christians never read it, they get their lessons from Atheists who have read it.
Faith: When you desperately want to believe something and can't come up with a good reason why.
Not always.
Though some of these intellectual giants did indeed desparately cling to their faith in atheism before becoming Christians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_nontheism
My point is that it goes both ways. Atheism is just as much a belief system as is Christianity. If anyone thinks otherwise, they are misinformed. Don't argue against strawmans!
jboom: Atheism is strictly the rejection of belief in a god/gods and pretty much anything supernatural. Atheists prefer to believe based on evidence not faith (belief without evidence). So while christians/theists may not care that what they believe is true, Atheists do care.
Educated Christians stand aright with the firm knowledge they their faith is not in opposition to science. These debates have been hashed through by prominent intellectuals in decades past and today as well (published in books and videos currently available). There are plenty of prominent intellectual Christians and prominent intellectual atheists who would recognize 90% of the stuff thrown out here as strawman arguments.
@jboom,
"My point is that it goes both ways. Atheism is just as much a belief system as is Christianity. If anyone thinks otherwise, they are misinformed. Don't argue against strawmans!"
I agree it goes both ways (though currently more toward atheism...may not remain). I also agree there are many intellectual Christians as well as atheists. However, I disagree that atheism *by definition* is a system at all. Various ideas often found in conjunction with atheism (materialism, humanism, Buddhism etc) are systems, but atheism itself, while often linked to these ideas is not a system...unless you count a single idea (or simply lack of belief, depending on definition) as a "system".
re: "Christians do not care if what they believe is true"
A jury may be split on a court decision. They all see the same evidence. They can come to different conclusions.
Likewise, the fully informed atheist and fully informed Christian are aware of the evidence and the arguments in the old debate over the existence or non-existence of God. They can come to different conclusions.
to saraswati – that post was to the OP
wish we could reply directly to the sub-repliers...
I call it a system but that is really besides the point I was trying to make that both are in the end matters of belief. To raise one over the other because of evidence does not hold water.
I don't mean that those beliefs are not informed by reason, but rather that reason, in the end is insufficient for either of them. In other words, there is no 'proof' either way. There is room for doubt.
AtheistsMorons,
"And by the way, stop spreading more lies than you already do. Bill Maher don't give money to kids or anyone else other than to atheists themselves."
Charities contributed to by Bill Maher:
Barbara Davis Center for Childhood Diabetes
Best Friends Animal Society
Comic Relief
Dogs Deserve Better
Global Green
Robert F Kennedy Memorial
Save the Chimps
Somaly Mam Foundation
The Humane Society
You obviously have no idea what the word "liar" means.
Does the word "TRUTH" mean anything at all to you? How about "INTEGRITY"?
Even if us, atheists, do contribute to the christards organizations they'll never appreciate it anyways.
We just tolerate their stupidity in their ignorance of the real facts.
Do religious organizations contribute to atheist causes?
This "atheistsmorons" nitwit, with the writing skills of a grade-school dropout, is a great testimonial to atheism. Keep up the great work, moron, you ignorant twit.
I find it interesting, in this rag owned by Ted Turner, who is known to hate Christians, that out of all the examples of bad behavior, the article is devoted almost entirely to Christian like cults or fallen Christians. In India, especially during their struggle for independence, Muslims and Hindus were responsible for the death of perhaps millions. Why no mention of that? Perhaps you would care to discuss Mohammed's successors, that bull dozed their way across Africa and Southern Europe, slaughtering a significant portion of the population?
WND EXCLUSIVE
Obama impeachment bill now in Congress
Declares president's use of military without approval 'high crime, misdemeanor'
Hold your breath.
AtheistsMormons,
Hope you got a chance to see famous atheist Penn Gillette on "Celebrity Apprentice" working to raise money tonight for his CHARITY which helps children with mental disabilities.
So much for any credibility for your mindless claims that atheists don't help charities.
Well i'll be damned, i can't believe an atheist finally did something good. Now let's hope this is not just a smoke screen to blind people from how evil atheists really are.
Morons
You seriously believed that atheists don't do any good? Maybe you will be damned.
It's obvious that you're not very skilled at trying to get a rise out of people.
How long have you practiced on this, christard? You aren't very good at it.
AtheistsMorons,
Obviously, you haven't done any research at all. Atheist Bill Maher has contributed to many charities.
So much for the truthfulness of someone who constantly and ignorantly calls everyone who disagrees "liars".
No way, you atheists are not doing goods, i've seen you many time bragging your atheists banners at a disaster event trying to recruit people and doing nothing to help for the ones caught in a disaster. You are too proud to move you lazy a s s e s to do anything. You're just standing there screaming bad words to the people who are helping the needy ones. You ain't doing anything good at all. Instead of trying to figure out how to feed those children in this country you prefer trying to figure how a planet 25 millions light years away from here is made of. You ain't doing or bringing any goods to this world. While you people keeps day dreaming, others are working their b u t t to fill the holes you are not interested to fill.
Atheists aren't like Christians like Fred Phelps and his church members with their banners at funerals.
Pointing out the insanity of religion, especially to the not-yet-indoctrinated young, is a great contribution to the general good.
Of course not, atheists are even worst than him.
Go for that christard offense. XD
tallulah, I think intolerance can come from anywhere. It starts from over-generalizing–about churchgoers, for example. I know dozens of regular churchgoers. A few are zealots, but most hardly speak a word about their worship or faith. You might not even know they are devout unless you got to know them after a while. By the way, I'm not a church member myself, never have been and don't foresee becoming one.
had enough dodo?
That was a poor performance. Your god is not satisfied.
http://youtu.be/HwMyjKQ725E
Hey Answer? Are you still replying to each and every post he's still making? You atheists with your paranoia will never stop to amaze me. lol
Still trying to get a rise. So hilarious.
@answer
No i'm still waiting for what is going to be the next lie you atheists will come out with.
Still trying.
Try harder.
Your sister is hot! XD
you failed, it's true she is lol
So you failed to nail her yourself. Ahh I feel your pain.
Nope, she said she's not interested in a atheist. She just don't want to live your unclean way of living.
Trying to distance yourself from your own lust for your sister. Her t-w-a-t isn't on mind... how touching.
Religion is a grand SCAM and a SHAM! Reality and science RULES!
Science and faith need not be in opposition.
"For years, Consolmagno has heard all the arguments about science and religion. He is an astronomer and scientist. He has a masters and PhD and he has studied at MIT and Harvard. He's also a Jesuit Brother who lives in Castel Gandolfo, where the Vatican has one of its observatories. He says even though most scientist don't really talk about religion, it's usually always there, in the back of their minds. "
http://www.romereports.com/palio/where-science-meets-religion-vatican-astronomer-talks-about-meeting-point-english-9891.html#.UX3vgaLkuYA
Sure, scientists can go to church for the social aspects of it, and enjoy the music and meditation that comes with prayer, but can these same scientists theorize about God as scientists? Undoubtedly, many scientists are also superst.itious in other ways, but will they be writing any peer reviewed papers on these beliefs? People such as this compartmentalize their religious beliefs and do a pretty good job of keeping them out of their rational work.
Ben
Scientists and many leading intellectuals can and do theorize about God.
Many left their faith in atheism for Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_nontheism
They do not see science and reason as opposed to faith. Science and reason cannot prove/disprove atheism. Likewise, it cannot prove/disprove Christianity. In the end, both are belief systems.
jboom
That link lists converts, but it doesn't list any scientific theory about God that any of them actually did. It's like the old analogy that tons of doctors still smoke when they know full well that they can't justify it medically.
I'm not suggesting you or anyone else drop atheism because these intelllectual thinkers did, but rather to simply answer your question as to whether they have entered into debates on this topic. Yes they have written and spoken extensively on the topic. So for seekers of truth (be it an atheist or a Christian), there are deeper discussions, points and counterpoints that go well beyond many of the strawman arguments that are (disingenuosly?) tossed around on this forum.
Stupid article – all religion is evil!
Religion is the root of all evil. It's hard to find an act of violence that wasn't instigated due to somebody believing something different. On a much larger scale, show me a single war that wasn't tied to religion in some way. Good luck finding a single one. The idea of religion is sacred, it's the human mind that warps it and twists it to justify acts of cruel violence. The normal sunday churchgoer simply follows blindly while somebody is living a life of luxury benefiting from the stupidly and insecurity of others. That's not hope, that's not faith, that's completely messed up.
Show me a single kid in this pill popping kids generation that believe in God. You won't find a whole bunch of them, those who don't believe in God are involved in shooting others in schools and on the streets and other crimes around the country. Thanks to the atheists for brain washing them in schools.
AMoron is like a little jihadist troll. Any other nonsensical rants you think we need to hear?
Congratulations, Frank. You just espoused Sign #1 in the article: You claim to have the absolute truth that others lack. Your words: "Religion is the root of all evil." You know all the answers for everyone else. Impressive (not).
Maybe you can't see into the heart of billions of people you don't know. Maybe religion isn't the root of all evil. Maybe in tolerance is.
"simply follows blindly" <- strawman
List of prominent intellectuals, poets, philsophers, etc who were thinking atheists who became Christians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_nontheism
It's always entertaining to hear the people who so adamantly insist this is a Christian nation and yet have them tell us that apparently all the media and educators are not.
I think you're right, clinky. Intolerance is certainly a root of evil. And where does one learn intolerance? History shows that your local place of worship is a good place to start.
AM Azzhole, I wish reality was as you claim. We, "The Nones," are making great headway but unfortunately not at the rate you think. More often than not, those committing violence are believers. The Boston Bombers may not belong to your favorite cult, but they are/were fellow believers, praying to the same god as you and most believers – in other words, they are yours, not atheists'.
You have it all wrong Tal. Only atheists will spend their entire life searching for religious blog to bad mouth people. You won't see believers searching atheists website and bad mouthing them. So therefore intolerance are from atheists people.
A religious freak who can only try to get a rise out of his enemies. So funny.
Oh telling it like it is.. the christard way.
Ha ha ha ha, there you go again, as soon as you tell them atheists who they really are, they hurry up and click on Report Abuse, bunch of scary losers, they're afraid that to many people will wake up tomorrow morning and see this. Hypocrites that you are.
Oh the christard wants to preserve his christard way. How cute.
AtheistsMorons,
Speaking of HYPOCRITES, who was the person lying about atheists not contributing to charities (see Penn Gillette, Bill Maher, etc) and yet being a big enough world-class hypocrite to call others "liars"?
The hypocrites are you atheists and it's a proven fact, you have Report Abuse my posting. The only reason you hurry up doing it is simply because you are afraid. Afraid because you have something to hide, and that thing you're trying to hide is the nasty little world of lies you are spreading by pretending you are good for humanity.
Love the 'proven fact' christard spiel. Classic.
AtheistsMorons,
Speaking of HYPOCRITES, who was the person lying about atheists not contributing to charities (see Penn Gillette, Bill Maher, etc) and yet being a big enough world-class hypocrite to call others "liars"?
Still STUMPED?
And by the way, stop spreading more lies than you already do. Bill Maher don't give money to kids or anyone else other than to atheists themselves. And that goes to other atheists who are giving to charities. You know too darn well that you will never see an atheist helping a religious family. or any religious associations that bring helps for those in needs.
Ya the christards can do that for everyone.
Give me just one religious association that an atheists gave money to, bring me the fact of this if you can.
Ya let's see if we care about those religious freaks. We don't.
Shocker.
I give my charitable donations via richarddawkins.net who gives 100% of it to organizations that don't care or ask which cult(s) a person in need is a member of. And I don't get to claim a taxable deduction!
Why should an atheist give money to a believer cult when they can donate to independent charities – not guides needed or wanted? But you seem to think you have a point, so please demonstrate the opposite – that believers give to atheist charities.
So you don't know where the money you gave went to right? And do you seriously think Dawkins is giving that money to buy the needs for people who has lost their house and entire belongings in a hurricane? Or to the kids the can't afford having 3 meals a day? Give me a better one than that. Nasty little lying r a t
I would LOVE a guarantee DISCLAIMER that an organization is a RELIGIOUS organization so I can avoid giving my contributions to them.
So now you admit it? Bunch of nasty little evil liars. This is why you losers are Reporting my post as Abuse because i keep catching you red handed in you lies. You are not only an hypocrites bunch but also liars and good at twisting facts. Nothing is more evil than you people are.
AtheistsMorons,
"Give me just one religious association that an atheists gave money to, bring me the fact of this if you can.'
lol. So after losing the argument about atheists contributing to charities, now it's contributing to religious associations.
LOL. This is a riot.
Troll harder christard.
All you're capable is generating the christard thinking. Promoting the all proven point that religious people are s-c-u-m.
You're the best at giving people more viewpoints to further themselves away from you freak and your freak culture. I am congratulating you for helping us. Keep posting.
I refer to religious associations simply because they're the only one that does something for the needy people. All other charities are for other causes. Like you lying atheists are only making donations to atheists associations only your your own purpose and not for the cause of others purpose. You will only support yourselves. On the other hand, religious associations disregards whether you're black or white or even atheists, they don't focus on how a planet 2500 light years away from here is made of. Their purpose is to help the people on this planet, not the planets out there.
You freaks believe there are other planets out there? Shocker.
Next thing you'll accept the universe.
Control yourself Answer, you're little atheist brain is starting to lose some marbles. Take a hold of you. 🙂
Take a hold of you? Does that make sense in your fantasy land?
Are you even capable of communicating?
I trust that richarddawkins.org deploys any monies they receive according to their statements. If you think they are liars or fraud is taking place, please give your evidence to the responsible authorities. I can't imagine the level of glee believers would express if it was proven that fraud had taken place. Unlike believer cults, such as the RCC, I don't believe richarddawkins.org is covering anything up. But do continue to spread your unfounded bullsh!t. . .
Sure i can communicate, but you seem to be loosing communication with reality ha ha ha
Oh look at the freak mention reality. That's funny.
Go away with your so called Richard Dawkins association. Just call them up tomorrow if you can and ask them if they are giving away money to people in a crisis situations in this country, and then you'll come back to me.
Ya that's a name you freaks don't want to hear. Don't want to hear it at all. Just too bad.
@ Answer
Is taking two Midol and changing diaper make you feel better now?
" I can ignore that name because my freak religious ways allow me to, like with reality."
Now the christard wants to associate drug use into their opponents. How cute.
Try harder. Do everything you can. I've heard them all.
Ok it's getting late and you lying atheists are getting boring. And i have to go to work tomorrow, unlike you atheists losers who have no jobs or a life. You should get out of your parents basement and do something with your life and please stop be supported by your parents, aren't you too old for that? Have a good atheist night. lol
Now the getting late.. farewell ... run.
Typical. No staying power.
Just fvck off for good.
From givingaid/richarddawkins.net (not .org as I stated above in error):
"Doctors Without Borders relies on private donations for 90% of their funding. All donations that the Richard Dawkins Foundation receives via Non-Believers Giving Aid will be donated to Doctors Without Borders – nothing is removed for overhead. Please help us with whatever you are able to give."
Why don't you believe this?
Let's see if this freak keeps the same handle for the next time. I would not be surprised at a new name to do the same sh!t.
Oh and one more thing before i go, don't forget to click on Report Abuse so the moderator will delete my posting before people who woke up see all of this and realize about the bunch of nasty little evil liars you people are. You would be giving us a very opportunity to find out that you are getting these posting delete because you are hypocrites and are having something to hide. Ok have a good atheist night.
What a paranoid fvck wit.
If anything CNN should enshrine the whole series and make a piece for the world to see. See the way the religious cretins do their talks. It'll be a real treat.
AtheistsMorons,
I have no idea who, if anyone is getting you deleted, but if you had more maturity you'd know there is a code of conduct on here and when you mindlessly call people "liars" and other names, you have crossed the bounds especially when you are wrong.
Why not spend time doing some research for a change? It would cut down on your many erroneous claims.
Signs #1 and #4 sound like virtually all of the atheists who regularly post on CNN's Religion Blog. "We have all the final answers for everybody" and "Every religion must be purged to save humankind" is all you ever hear from them. Those stances align perfectly with "I know the truth, and you don't" (see sign #1) and "The end justifies the means" (see sign #4). The atheists on CNN are halfway to crazy. Gives you something to think about.
You have that right. I must add that they also always either calling everyone a bigot or a troll if you don't agree with them.
What "means" do you suggest we're employing? All atheists here do is point out the faults in religious beliefs. If that results in people realizing for themselves that their religious beliefs aren't worth keeping anymore then is that really too radical, especially when we ourselves are testament to the fact that people do realize this for themselves all the time?
Morons
If you are a bigot, if you have a negative att.itude towards people because of who they are as opposed to what they believe, then we call you one. Simple enough?
Why the Waco photo?
Koresh could have walked out anytime he wanted. It was his ammo that blew up. He preferred that all the children stay inside and die with him. Another Jim Jones.
Evil is a mostly religious concept. I wouldn't call religion evil. I would call religion misguided, dishonest, and dangerous. It's a bit frightening how many people walk this nation with a horrible torture device swinging from a chain round their neck. They worship death as the greatest and most sought after experience of their lives, often leaving them with little respect for this life.