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 The Branch Davidians, a religious sect led by David Koresh, clashed with federal agents in 1993 in Waco, Texas.
April 28th, 2013
06:00 AM ET
When religious beliefs become evil: 4 signsBy John Blake, CNN (CNN) - An angry outburst at a mosque. The posting of a suspicious YouTube video. A friendship with a shadowy imam. Those were just some of the signs that Tamerlan Tsarnaev, accused of masterminding the Boston Marathon bombings, had adopted a virulent strain of Islam that led to the deaths of four people and injury of more than 260. But how else can you tell that someone’s religious beliefs have crossed the line? The answer may not be as simple you think, according to scholars who study all brands of religious extremism. The line between good and evil religion is thin, they say, and it’s easy to make self-righteous assumptions. “When it’s something we like, we say it’s commitment to an idea; when it’s something we don’t like, we say it’s blind obedience,” said Douglas Jacobsen, a theology professor at Messiah College in Pennsylvania. Yet there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter “There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Here are four warning signs: 1. I know the truth, and you don’t. On the morning of July 29, 1994, the Rev. Paul Hill walked up to John Britton outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, and shot the doctor to death. Hill was part of a Christian extremist group called the Army of God, which taught that abortion was legalized murder. Hill’s actions were motivated by a claim that virtually all religions espouse: We have the truth that others lack. Those claims can turn deadly when they become absolute and there is no room for interpretation, Kimball says. “Absolute claims can quickly move into a justification of violence against someone who rejects that claim,” Kimball said. “It’s often a short step.” Healthy religions acknowledge that sincere people can disagree about even basic truths, Kimball says. The history of religion is filled with examples of truths that were once considered beyond questioning but are no longer accepted by all followers: inerrancy of sacred scripture, for example, or the subjugation of women and sanctioning of slavery. If someone like Hall believes that they know God’s truth and they cannot be wrong, watch out, Kimball says. “Authentic religious truth claims are never as inflexible as zealous adherents insist,” he writes in “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Yet there’s a flip side to warnings about claiming absolute truth: Much of religion couldn’t exist without them, scholars say. Many of history’s greatest religious figures – Moses, Jesus, the Prophet Mohammed – all believed that they had discovered some truth, scholars say. Ordinary people inflamed with a sense of self-righteousness have made the same claim and done good throughout history, says Carl Raschke, a theology professor at the University of Denver in Colorado. The Protestant Reformation was sparked by an angry German monk who thought he had the truth, Raschke says. “Martin Luther’s disgust at the worldliness of the papacy in the early 1500s inspired him to become a radical revolutionary whose ideas overturned the entire political structure in Europe,” Raschke said. So how do you tell the difference between the healthy claims of absolute truth and the deadly? Scholars say to look at the results: When people start hurting others in the name of their religious truth, they’ve crossed the line. 2. Beware the charismatic leader. It was one of the deadliest terrorist attacks in Japanese history. In March 1995, a religious sect called Aum Shinrikyo released a deadly nerve gas in a Tokyo subway station, leaving 12 people dead and 5,000 injured. Two months later, Japanese police found Shoko Asahara, the sect’s founder, hiding in a room filled with cash and gold bars. Kimball, who tells the story of the sect in “When Religion Becomes Evil,” says Asahara had poisoned the minds of his followers years before. Asahara demanded unquestioned devotion from members of his sect and isolated followers in communities where they were told that they no longer needed to think for themselves, Kimball says. Any religion that limits the intellectual freedom of its followers, he says, has become dangerous. “When you start to get individuals who are the sole interpreters of truth, you get people who follow them blindly." Charismatic leaders, though, often don’t start off being cruel. Jim Jones, who led the mass suicide of his followers in South America, was a gifted speaker who built an interracial church in San Francisco that did much good in the community. Few people at the beginning of his ministry could predict what he would become. As time went on, though, his charisma turned cruel as he tolerated no questions to his authority and became delusional. “Charismatic leadership is important, but in healthy religions, there’s always a process where questions are encouraged,” Kimball said. Weaning followers away from corrupt charismatic leaders and bad religion can take years, but it can be done if one knows how to speak their language, says Ed Husain, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt will often deploy imams to reach out to young men in prison who have adopted “Islamism,” or extreme forms of Islam sanctioning violence against civilians, says Husain, who has written about Muslim extremism. These Muslim clerics know the Quran better than the extremists and can use their knowledge to reach extremists in a place that logic and outsiders cannot penetrate, Husain said. “The antidote to extremism is religion itself,” Husain said. “The problem is not to take Islam out of the debate but to use Islam to counter Islamism.” 3. The end is near. In 1970, an unknown pastor from Texas wrote a book called “The Late, Great Planet Earth.” The book, which linked biblical prophecy with political events like Israel’s victory in the 1967 Six-Day War, predicted the imminent return of an antichrist and the end of the world. Author Hal Lindsey’s book has sold an estimated 15 million copies and spawned a genre of books like the “Left Behind” series. Many people are fascinated by the idea that the heavens will open soon because the end is near. That end-times theology can turn lethal, though, when a follower decides that he or she will speed up that end-time by conducting some dramatic or violent act, says John Alverson, chairman of the theology department at Carlow University in Pittsburgh. “A religious terrorist mistakenly believes that God has ordained or called him or her to establish the will of God on Earth now, not gradually and not according to the slow and finicky free will of other humans,” Alverson said. Yet this impulse to see God’s intervention in human affairs now and not in some distant future can also be good, he says. There are vibrant religious communities that teach that political and economic injustice must be addressed now. Liberation theology, for example, was a movement among pastors and theologians in Latin America that called for justice for the poor now, not in some future apocalyptic event, Alverson says. “Hope is a good breakfast but not much of a supper,” Alverson said. “We can’t just live on the hope that justice will happen; we have to actually experience justice from time to time so that our hope can continue.” 4. The end justifies the means. It was one of the biggest scandals the Roman Catholic Church ever faced, and the repercussions are still being felt today. In January 2002, the Boston Globe published a story about Father John Geoghan, a priest who had been moved around various parishes after Catholic leaders learned that he had abused children. It was later revealed that Catholic officials had quietly paid at least $10 million to settle lawsuits against Geoghan. Kimball says the Catholic scandal revealed another sign that a faith has turned toxic: Religious figures start justifying doing something wrong for a higher good. “The common theme was trying to protect the integrity of the church,” Kimball said of some Catholic leaders who covered up the crimes. “You get all of these rationalizations that we can’t let this scandal bring the whole church down, so we have to pay off this family and send the priests off to rehab.” Religion is supposed to be a force for good. Still, it’s common that everyone from suicide bombers to venal church figures finds ways to justify their behavior in the name of some higher good. Those rationalizations are so pervasive that religious movements that avoid them stand out, scholars say. Jacobsen, the theology professor from Messiah College, cited the civil rights movement. The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and his fellow activists renounced violence, even as they were attacked and sometimes murdered. “They were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in, but what’s incredible is, they practiced not retaliating when they suffered violence,” he said. “Those people really believed that God created everyone equal, and they were committed to the point of death.” In some ways, it’s easy to say we would never adopt a form of religion that’s evil. But when we use the word “evil” to describe those who kill in the name of their faith, we’re already mimicking what we condemn, Jacobsen says. In his new book, “No Longer Invisible: Religion in University Education,” Jacobson writes that calling a religion evil is dangerous because “bad or wrong actions can be corrected, but typically evil needs to be destroyed.” CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories “To label someone or something as evil is to demonize it, putting it in a category of otherness where the rules of normal life do not apply, where the end often justifies almost any means,” Jacobson writes. And when we do that, we don’t have to read about radical imams or look at angry YouTube videos to see how easy it is for someone to drift toward religious extremism, he says. We need only look at ourselves. soundoff (3,810 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Once a person is willing to throw away logic for fantasy and label it faith, all rules are out the window.
ALL religion is delusion. All religion is dangerous.
Ooh, what are the rule?
"But how else can you tell that someone’s religious beliefs have crossed the line? " We know this the same way we know other events have crossed the line. For example, the development of biological weapons by scientists. The development of nukes by same. The enslavement of masses of people by crass capitalism, the man-made famines under communism.
Fron faith: "akira the air head"...who she votes as one of the most likely to go on a murderous spree...
I suppose anyone who can write an easily comprehendable, lucid sentence would be termed an airhead by someone who is abjectly ignorant and the enemy of even rudimentary education.
As for its second patently absurd assertion, I think it will be far more likely that we read about faith committing some mass murder in the name of Christianity than me.
I think between the two of us, we know who qualifies as the "airhead". Hint: not me.
Akira : I think between the two of us, we know who qualifies as the "airhead". Hint: not me.
And yet, you claimed to know me, that I was a 44-yr old woman with a son and living in NY. Do all 'lucid' people have these wild fantasies?
How do we know they're "fantasies"? Just because you say so, Lie4ever?
Liver can't read!! "I suppose anyone who can write an easily comprehendable, lucid sentence"....fucking dumb bitch. Does lying for God like the rest of them here get you closer to Him? Hahahahahahaha!
@The real Tom : How do we know they're "fantasies"?
First, anyone who is in Charlotte, NC could meet me for lunch / dinner.
Second, since this has been put forth by your side, you should provide evidence that it ISN'T a fanasty – unless you want to fall prey to the first point mentioned in the article: '1. I know the truth, and you don’t.'
You saying Akira lives in Charlotte?? Or you do? Who the fuck cares what some lying christian thinks, anyway? You're a fucking sham who thinks UPC codes are the mark of the beast, hahahahaha!!!
Lie4Him, Given your record on this forum why are you surprised that the veracity of anything you write is questioned?
Why should I provide evidence, Lie? I didn't make the claim and I don't what "side" you think I'm on. Did you get lost on the way to gym class or something?
Just get the god damn list out lie 4 him
The article is basically calling for PREVENTION by reading warning signs of 'extremism,' and that is HIGHLY OBJECTIVE; I agree with that.
I believe what the author projected applies to any ideology and not just religion!
One more item I would like to add to this projection, since terrorism holds people captive, is "BEWARE OF THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME!"
I agree Vic. These signs can appear in any ideology. I can think of one or two that aren't religious.
@Vic,
"I believe what the author projected applies to any ideology and not just religion!"
Excellent point!
@ME II : "I believe what the author projected applies to any ideology and not just religion!" Excellent point!
Including humanism, atheism, etc?
I agree, also. These are exhibited by ruthless dictators to gain their stronghold on countries to ensure blind obedience, with the threat of death for dissenters.
We've seen this throughout history. And it keeps repeating.
how do those apply to atheism?
Only religion has the creator of the universe as the law giver. The book is divinely inspired. It is the unquestioned authority behind the religion that sets it apart from other ideologies.
@sam stone : how do those apply to atheism?
Let me quote:
“When it’s something we like, we say it’s commitment to an idea; when it’s something we don’t like, we say it’s blind obedience,” said Douglas Jacobsen, a theology professor at Messiah College in Pennsylvania.
How often have atheists on these forums have claimed that Christianity (i.e. something they don't like) required blind obedience? All the time.
Any religion that limits the intellectual freedom of its followers, he says, has become dangerous.
Atheists on these forums utilize mockery rather than facts to support their beliefs. According to the article, it is a dangerous path they are following, since it requires the hearer to stop thinking for themselves. Note, this does not include atheists who will utilize facts to support their beliefs – only those who resort to mockery and ridicule.
To be as OBJECTIVE as the author is, we can not exclude Bill Ayers, the founder of the Weather Underground Organization, who killed innocent people in the name of communism!
Nor can we exclude Adolf Hitler, who was influenced, promoted and enabled by the National Socialist German Workers Party, aka the Nazi Party, who committed one of the WORST CRIMES against humanity, THE HOLOCAUST!
@Live4Him,
Atheism is hardly an Ideology. However, any ideology that shows these warning signs, is cause for concern, yes.
1) Most atheists, I think, are of the "weak" variety, i.e. not claiming to know the truth, just not accepting the claims of others.
2) Atheism does not have charismatic leaders, at least not at the level of Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. i.e. leaders capable of ordering death.
3) Atheism says nothing about "the end". Although according to scientific evidence it's still some billions of years away.
4) Atheism is not a philosophy nor an ethical system and therefore says nothing about "the ends" justifying anything.
Lie, are you claiming that religion DOESN'T require blind obedience?
Lie, how are atheists doing anything to their 'followers', when they don't have any such thing?
The problem has never been religion, but is and will always be an individual's intent to misuse religion for their own means. And that coincides with this article. The 4 signs are not what comes from a sacred text, nor from the message it brings; but from ones personal interpretation or misinterpretation to meet ones evil desires. With or without religion, the problem will always be there. Man will always have the ability to cause evil; religion is just becoming the scapegoat for it.
The best defense is a good offense. Now, I wonder what extreme ideology would want to make religion appear to be the exclusive harbinger of evil? Hmmm?
I don't know, Dill. I certainly don't. I know many people whose faith I admire. I don't find religion to be inherently harmful or evil. I do find some of its adherents to be, though.
Indeed. My theory is that it's personal harm that causes many who scapegoat religion to do so. Especially if this was at the hands of people close to the individual. That often requires the mind to rationalize why a person who's supposed to care about them behaved in such a manner. In many cases it's psychologically easier to look for a general environmental association than to acknowledge that the fault was in the person close to them.
The problem has never been guns, but is and will always be an individual's intent to misuse guns for their own means
You realize all 4 are soldily supported by the New testament, right? Hence Christianity is evil.
1) John 14:6
2) Matthew 14:13-21
3) Luke 21:31, Matthew 24:34
4) Christiniaty has ALWAYS held that the ends justifies the means. be it god drowing every living child in a flood, slaughtering the first borns of egypt, or anything they relata as going to happen in revelations. it is al lpredicated on the idea that their god is perfect, and by definition purely good. Being incapable of evil it means al lof their gods action must be good and fulyl justified since all humans are sinners worthy of death.
It's irrational to presume selective quotes from the Bible can be used to support your argument. That is called fundamentalism.
Isn't that the point Bill, these people use the bible to justify their actions and feel that the "laws of god" are more important than civil law.
I agree with Bill. You simply cannot pick out random verses of the bible without fully understanding what they mean, their context, etc. People who quote Old Testament passages such as the ones you provided as the way Christians are supposed to carry out their faith don't understand Christianity at all. What's more, you are providing false information to everyone reading because of your lack of knowledge. If you are truly someone who seeks the truth, I suggest you go sit down with a few pastors to get a better view of the bible and how everything fits together.
Santa, you can't single out religion as the source of the problem because PEOPLE are the source of the problem. They don't just use religion as the justifying means, they also use politics, personal experiences, anger/hate towards someone who is different or has wronged them, and more. As long as humans continue to be crazy (which will probably be forever), they will use any excuse to commit terrible acts of violence.
As a good student, you have read the reiterations of the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of religion. Therefore the seeds have been planted in rich soil. Go therefore and preach the truth to all nations, reiterating as you go amongst the lost, bred, born and brainwashed souls of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as Rational Thinking makes its triumphant return all because of you!!!!
There is no "right" religion. They are all just stories used to teach lessons. Taking them literally is very foolish.
"Sane Person
There is no "right" religion. They are all just stories used to teach lessons. Taking them literally is very foolish."
liar. no proof. 0
so, dorothy, how do handle your critics now? just a few too many to cry "i am a girl"
Why do you think everyone is a girl, asshole faith? Because they make so much more sense than your retarded drivel???
Bill Deacon
Stated...The truth is the truth whether everyone believes it or no believes it. ???
The truth is subject to change if the pope says that was old truth we are dropping it for this new truth , is that not how the RCC works, Billy? "The history of religion is filled with examples of truths that were once considered beyond questioning but are no longer accepted by all followers; inerrancy of sacred scripture, for example, or the subjugation of woman and sanctioning of slavery." The RCC took its time in getting its sh1t together and even today treat the women as second class.
It's not that the truth changed but that the people's understanding of it changed.
For example, the earth has always revolved around the sun - the TRUTH - but back in the day most people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. They believed the sun revolving around the earth was true, but in actuallity that was never TRUE.
I reiterate "The truth is the truth whether everyone believes it or no one believes it." demons have comprehension problems.
And of course, Dill, you think you know what the truth is, don't you? No ego problems there.
Bill Deacon
Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll.
More honest Billy would be...The truth is the truth if the pope tells me it is the truth or is written in the catechism and matters not if anyone else believes it. Better, more honest Billy?
I reiterate "The truth is the truth whether everyone believes it or no one believes it." demons have comprehension problems.
As do the pious
If you read closely and with an open mind when I post sam and tom, I never claim any special knowledge of ultimate truth. Typically I only offer clarification of the catechism when it is mis represented. Or, I submit the teaching of the church as a viable response to problems the world faces, since those are my beliefs (it's a belief blog).
Why would I "read with an open mind" the posts of someone who is so obviously not objective?
this articule was about "when religion becomes dangerous."
we haven't reviewed this topic since the waco tragedy. with everything going on with religious people being recruited to become "terrorists" this country needs to open it's eyes and see that religion isn't all dandeliones and butterflies there is a darkside to religion that can harm hundreds if not thousands of people as long as we ignore these signals we leave ourselves vunerable to "home-grown" terror threats.
i think this paper was long over due seeing we keep hearing about our own citizens getting recruited for these type of attacks because the ones on the outside can't easily get inside any longer to attack us directly; like in 9/11.
respect people being religious but observe them for extremeist statements against our nation.
Was that copied and pasted form Pilate's letter to Rome?
@bill: not unless pilate knew about september 11th 2001. 🙂
those are my true heartfelt words, i don't cut and paste unless it's too much to write while showing a point.
i don't plagerize. 🙂
Dandeliones for mommy – Toynia Edmond – PoemHunter.Com ??
i nominate sambo stoneho, tom the moron, observer, reality?, no-religion, right!, akira the air head, fsm, santa and invisible sky daddy. all equally dangerous, violent and aching to start killing christians
Hey Bill what about the facts ?
I nominate faith/lolly for fvcktard of the century. What kind of idiot thinks lying will make Jeebus happy?
Morning WASP
With sources bill ...............and not the bible ?
"Dandelions are especially well-adapted to a modern world of "disturbed habitats," such as lawns and sunny, open places. They were even introduced into the Midwest from Europe to provide food for the imported honeybees in early spring."
http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants.Folder/Dandelion.html
The Monroe Doctrine wasn't gud enuff to keep em out.
I will second that, "The real Tom". Truly an optimal selection.
faith: i don't want to kill anyone. fvck you are your persecution complex
i vote we start with faith first seeing "it" expects we atheists to act in such a way why disappoint. trust me "faith" the one that drops you isn't the one you feel. 🙂
faith
Most of the atheists here were once Christians, so why kill them before they have time to outgrow the delusion like we did?
wasp, I understood the context and didn't miss the references. However, without the incidents you listed, I could very easily see Pilate voicing the same concerns to his superiors 20 centuries ago. One of the things I think eludes atheists is that mankind has not "evolved" all that much since that time. Left to a subjective morality, we will degenerate.
Science, I'm all for the facts. Could you be more specific?
Hal 9001, still stuck in a dialectic world? You are the one that should know about the Boolean world.
Alas, even the firewall of the Monroe Doctrine didn't protect HAL 9001. Virus alert.
still trying to prove that objective morality BS, Billy?
You tell me, you stupid cunt. You don't posess any.
"WASP
i vote we start with faith first seeing "it" expects we atheists to act in such a way why disappoint. trust me "faith" the one that drops you isn't the one you feel." to hls and fbi
so, most animals here were reborners. lol
so, you no nothin. the 1 or 2 ( sorry, that is all there b. so, u r so stupid!!) who post as demon-possessed reprobates worship satan and always will
Bill Deacon................Adam and Eve suck the big one !
ed, without it the strong will prosper and the weak will be subjugated. We've proven it time after time.
Bill Deacon
Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll.
Why the fvck should anybody that is not into your delusion forgive you, the do as I say not what I do/did, pathetic hypocrite? The ugly history of the RCC can only be denied by the deluded.
Science, I've had some respect for your proclivity to post scientific links. So, I'm saddened to see you devolve into crudity. Maybe you just need to be part of the "in crowd"
At last we agree demon! No one who can't or won't accept forgiveness can forgive another.
As to the history of the Church, the board is full of reports of both the good and the bad. It's only closed minds that insist it is one or the other. The truth is that the entire history of western civilization revolves around Judeo Christianity. Kind of hard to sort out the good from the bad if all you have is subjective morality isn't it?
BD: "We've proven it time after time." [objective morality]
Nope. Nice try, though.
From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life..................you are really stuck in the soup ! Billie go learn something !
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml
No angels the pope kicked them off the team last year !
nope? That's your counterargument? LOL ok.
You're the one who mentioned objective morality has been proven again and again, Bill. So prove it if you can.
WASP what is this sh-it Billie is talking about ?
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/12/where-do-morals-come-from/#comments
Come on Billie what ? funny url's bill cool science !
Mr Bill Deacon .............do facts work when teaching children ?
these animals think they can threaten physical harm against americans with complete impunity.
You mean like Paul Hill did?
No tom, like Kermit Gosnell
So you can't figure out that they're BOTH guilty of murder? Idiot.
Gosnell wasn't abiding by the law. Neither was Hill.
You really are stupid.
Kermit gosnall is a monster...and thinking he is typical of abortion doctors is just as stupis as thinking all priests are pedophiles, Bill. Grow the fuck up. If you are SO against one, why did your SO have one??? Hypocrite.
The other question Dilly never answers is why he and his SO were fornicating in the first place, when they weren't married, and why he didn't try to prevent an unplanned pregnancy.
Kermit gosnall is a monster...and thinking he is typical of abortion doctors is just as stupis
tell us, what are most abortion doctors really like? obviously u no. go ahead. what do they do with the blood? the heart? the spine?
I'd have to say it was from ignorance and immaturity. By the grace of God, and the willingness to repent, I've grown past that. I pray that those who are, today, making the same mistakes I made, receive His mercy too.
Tom, you're the one who tried to use Paul Hill in order to skew faith's comment in your favor. I simply countered with Gosnell to illustrate either side can find examples. But, of course you win. You called me an idiot and that is just such a compelling argument, at least in your mind.
There is no fairy in the sky BILL !.....................Fadt !
Peace
Oh, poor little Dill. Wah, wah, wah.
Nobody has to do anything for faith/lollypo0p's posts to be "skewed." The fact that you agree puts you in the same league with the nuts.
The fact is that you don't like it when the faults of your own kind are pointed out to you. Cry me a river.
so, she means you
Me a murderer? The truth is yes. How about you tom? Any malice in your heart?
Washington Post: 260,000 died in 2011 Somali famine, new report says; half were 5 and under
By Associated Press, Updated: Monday, April 29, 9:28 AM
NAIROBI, Kenya — Officials in East Africa say a report to be released this week estimates that 260,000 people died in Somalia’s 2011 famine, more than double previous estimates.
billy clinton turned the other cheek pretending 800,000 rwandans weren't being massacred.
did u do anything to help?
one glance at heaven from heaven will destroy all thoughts and memories of the pain and misery of this fallen world. the devil and her angels remember–heaven, that is. everywhere else is hell compared to the beauty of that place. believe it or not, your choice
What did you do, faith??? Proselytize?? Shut up, you ungracious hypocrite.
The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. Mark 14:7
Many Christians, apparently, want to start helping the poor some time far into the future, but they die before that time comes, one supposes.
so, "Shut up,"
yea. so, that works
Precious angel, under the sun
How was I to know you’d be the one
To show me I was blinded, to show me I was gone
How weak was the foundation I was standing upon?
Now there’s spiritual warfare and flesh and blood breaking down
Ya either got faith or ya got unbelief and there ain’t no neutral ground
The enemy is subtle, how be it we are so deceived
When the truth’s in our hearts and we still don’t believe?
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see
My so-called friends have fallen under a spell
They look me squarely in the eye and they say, “All is well”
Can they imagine the darkness that will fall from on high
When men will beg God to kill them and they won’t be able to die?
Sister, lemme tell you about a vision I saw
You were drawing water for your husband, you were suffering under the law
You were telling him about Buddha, you were telling him about Mohammed
in the same breath
You never mentioned one time the Man who came and died a criminal’s death
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see
Precious angel, you believe me when I say
What God has given to us no man can take away
We are covered in blood, girl, you know our forefathers were slaves
Let us hope they’ve found mercy in their bone-filled graves
You’re the queen of my flesh, girl, you’re my woman, you’re my delight
You’re the lamp of my soul, girl, and you torch up the night
But there’s violence in the eyes, girl, so let us not be enticed
On the way out of Egypt, through Ethiopia, to the judgment hall of Christ
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see_r zimmy
Your taste in music sucks dead priests.
Since there's no music attached I can only guess you don't like the message tom. Now go ahead, cuss someone out. You know you want to.
So now you think you know what others want just by reading their posts? Gee, pot, meet kettle.
Oh, and Dill? Lyrics like that would make ANY melody suck. But then, Catholics don't know much about music anyway, so they can't tell.
so dorothy, not a dylan fan?
" I can only guess"
so, u can only guess?
so, no other options dorothy? so, i can only guess there r more
(i can't help it!)
the head korn welsh is some kind of reborner
Something takes a part of me
Something lost and never seen
Every time I start to believe
Something's raped and taken from me... from me
Life's gotta always be messing with me (You wanna see the light)
Can't it chill and let me be free? (So do I)
Can't I take away all this pain (You wanna see the light)
I'd tried to every night, all in vain... in vain
Sometimes I cannot take this place
Sometimes it's my life I can't taste
Sometimes I cannot feel my face
You'll never see me fall from grace
Something takes a part of me
You and I were meant to be
A cheap fuck for me to lay
Something takes a part of me
Feelin' like a freak on a leash (You wanna see the light)
Feelin' like I have no release (So do I)
How many times have I felt disease? (You wanna see the light)
Nothing in my life is free... is free
Sometimes I cannot take this place
Sometimes it's my life I can't taste
Sometimes I cannot feel my face
You'll never see me fall from grace
Something takes a part of me
You and I were meant to be
A cheap fuck for me to lay
Something takes a part of me
Boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Da boom na da mmm dum na ema
Go!
So fight, something on the...
Fight, some things they fight
So, something on the...
Fight, some things they fight
Fight, something of the...
No, some things they fight
Fight, something on the...
Fight, some things they fight
Something takes a part of me
You and I were meant to be
A cheap fuck for me to lay
Something takes a part of me
Part of me
Part of me
Part of me
LACUNA COIL. (GREAT GROUP)
"Heaven's A Lie"
Oh no,
here it is again
I need to know
when I will fall in decay
Something wrong
with every plan of my life
I didn't really notice that you've been here
Dolefully desired
Destiny of a lie
Set me free
your heaven's a lie
set me free with you love
set me free, yeah
Oh no,
here it is again
I need to know
why did I choose to betray you
Something wrong
with all the plans of my life
I didn't realize that you've been here
Dolefully desired
Destiny of a lie
[x2]
Set me free
your heaven's a lie
set me free with you love
set me free, yeah
Dolefully desired
[x3]
Set me free
your heaven's a lie
set me free with you love
set me free, yeah
You know...they always call them religious nuts, jesus freaks.
I've never heard anyone say atheist freaks.
How about coagulation freaks?
why be redundant?
Lol?? clearly has no idea how to use the word 'coagulation' correctly in a sentence.
maybe nationalization freaks?
Bill Deacon
Is irrelevant. Billy is an obsequious papal apologist troll.
Such hatred for atheists Billy so un-christian.
Reality freaks, reason freaks, logic freaks, common sense freaks, anti-fairy tale freaks
Sometimes they're called Jesus freaker.
"When religious beliefs become evil..." How about when they use an instrument of torture (a crucifix) as their symbol.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
how would u like to be crucified?
"....who hold the truth...."
Well, that leaves YOU out.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness
maybe we should switch to sonograms
This is partly why the claims that Acharya makes scholars to distance themselves from her.
Totally clueless !
The "wrath of god" is a bad joke, an empty threat
Run that by us in Boolean, S Stone, instead of the feminine XX dialectic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKxk9TvyJrs
'
Jesus' crazy brigade is out in full force this morning.
All one need do is read this column and one could easily identify several madmen who hide behind a veneer of faith.
lol
The four horsemen of the zombie apolcaypse, as they are already dead from the neck up:
1) faith
2) biggles
3) lol??
4) Chad
ask the fbi
and homeland security.
Don't even bother responding to the Green Giant.
Jim Jones was an atheist.
Hard to believe that CNN/John Blake would go so far as to try and re-invent him to be "religious".
Pretty desperate tactic, very dishonest, very overt agenda..
By the spring of 1976, Jones began openly admitting even to outsiders that he was an atheist.
The Temple openly preached to established members that "religion is an opiate to the people." (Jones, Jim. "Transcript of Recovered FBI tape Q 1053." Alternative Considerations of Jonestown and Peoples Temple. Jonestown Project: San Diego State University.)
Accordingly, "those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment – socialism."
(Layton 1999, page 53).
In that regard, Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism."
(Jones, Jim. "Transcript of Recovered FBI tape Q 757." Alternative Considerations of Jonestown and Peoples Temple. Jonestown Project: San Diego State University).
Unless you consider atheism a "faith", this statement from the article is an outright lie
there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence.
“There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.”
Oh, wow...can't believe I left "No atheist has ever read the bible" off the Gospel of Chad list:
Gospel of Chad:
(Updated list derived from history of Chad conversations.)
Atheism:
1. All atheists agree with everything Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins say, even if it is unrelated to atheism. Hawking and Dawkins disagree on free will, however, but you should ignore this conflict or any atheist who says they disagree.
2. All atheists agree with one another on everything even if it has nothing to do with atheism. See #1 for models from which you can derive all their beliefs.
3. The definition of atheist includes anything that any atheist I disagree with believes or anything I feel like tossing in there. Ignore any definitions in pesky places like dictionaries and philosophical encyclopedias.
4. If one atheist somewhere on the internet said something, then, since all atheists agree with him/her, I can use that randomly selected example as an argument to address all other atheists.
5. The definition of atheism includes not just materialism but strict deterministic materialism. Non-believers who might be Buddhists, believe in probabilistic physics, see consciousness as prior to the physical world, believe in, say, witchcraft aren’t really atheists.
6. No atheist has ever read the bible. I mean, obviously, they’d be Christians if they had, right? OK, so a few have proven to me – OK, multiple times – that they have read the bible. See #11 (just lie).
Free will:
7. All people who use the term “free will” really mean the same exact thing by that term, which matches my personal use of the term “free will” (unless backed into a corner, then I just declare all other meanings irrelevant)
8. Fatalism and determinism are the same thing. It has been pointed out to me that historically these terms have been used with different meanings, but I find it more convenient to make up my own definitions, as with atheism and free will.
In fact, I brilliantly argued “If a person is a determinist, how in the world does deterrence even come into the picture? Determinists believe in an ever marching set of deterministic outcomes based on an existing set of antecedent conditions. Those conditions march back to the origin of the universe, no way to change the past, so no way to change the future. (On April 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm)
After reading a bit more about fatalism and determinism I decided to change my tune to a claim that determinism leads to fatalism (and to pretend this was what I was saying all along). I’m sticking to reading easy pop philosophers, though, and selective websites on the topic as anything more complex makes my head hurt. I have read snippets from a couple of websites now so that ought to put me on par with people who’ve read dozens of books on the topic, understand neurobiology and have written on both the philosophical and cultural aspects of free will and people’s belief in the topic. Oh, yeah, I know what I’m talking about!
9. A determinist cannot believe that humans can change. This would, of course, mean that nothing can change. Which would mean…oh…crud…better put my head back up my ass.
10. A determinist cannot believe in punishing people for crimes. This is because…well…it doesn’t matter. Just keep repeating it.
Telling lies:
11. It is ethical to lie so long as it promotes Christian beliefs.
12. Speaking of telling lies, a really good way to do this is to rephrase what your opponent says and then keep repeating the misquote in hopes that he or she will get bored and leave your lie as the last statement. Then you win. You can do this either by rewording as a supposed paraphrase or pulling lines out of context and reordering them. God really loves this and gives you extra endurance to sit at the computer all day and keep repeating it.
13. One way to use this super endurance to your advantage is to keep posting the same questions over and over again even after they’ve been answered 50 times. Just pretend they haven’t been answered and act self-righteous about it. It’s really cool if you can ask this same thing on multiple threads and then claim it was never answered forcing people to waste time on the same thing over and over and over.
14. In particular don’t forget that whatever someone says you can respond with “What investigation have you done into…”. Especially good is to ask what investigation was done into the truth of the God of Israel. When the non-Christian comes back to ask how much research you did to prove other gods aren’t real answer “I don’t need to do any because I proved the God of Israel is real and that negates all other gods”. When asked how you proved that repeat the words “empty tomb” over and over until divine light shines on the souls of the heathens.
15. When they refuse to play your game or you don’t like the answer add some sarcasm, but use an emoticon to soften it so they’ll know your snide remarks are all in good fun.
16. Consider asking completely nonsensical questions that can’t even be understood, let alone answered. Best yet include something the person didn’t say as a premise. For example, you might ask an atheist opponent “You say you like murdering small children on Wednesdays, could you explain how this fits with your beliefs about string theory?” Then when your question is ignored accuse the person of avoidance and make up wild hypotheses as to why they are avoiding you.
17. Above all else keep asking questions while avoiding answering any yourself.
Science, math and psychology:
18. If one scientist says something that backs me, then I can assume all scientists agree with that statement.
19. If atheist scientists say something, even if it is the view of the majority of people in that science, it should be ignored. See #11.
20. Atheists are ruled by confirmation bias. I am free of it – it’s just great luck that everything I read and all the “data” around me confirm my strong religious convictions. See #19 on ignoring anything else.
21. Infinity = all finite numbers according to the Chad. Thirty or forty years of constraint is the same as eternal torment.
22. Rehabilitation and deterrence are the same thing. Yep…convincing a drug addict not to use drugs in case they are shot dead and getting them off the addiction would be the same by my wondrous Chad logic.
General truths about the CNN belief blog:
23. All non-believers are, by definition, idiots so you can use illogical arguments and they’ll just fall for it.
24. If I post a quote that has a few key words in it from our discussion I can claim it backs my point even if it actually says the exact opposite thing from what I’m claiming. Atheists, as mentioned above, are too dumb to notice. Best yet is to post a link or reference a book which actually says the opposite of what I’m saying and just assume no one will look at it.
25. There is a huge mass of fence sitters out there who are eagerly reading CNN blog comments in order to decide whether or not to believe in God.
26. I will personally save all those mentioned in # 25 because I, Chad, am super smart. I know this because I get away with all the above mentioned lies and manipulations. Sometimes people think they are pointing these things out but they really aren’t. Or the stupid atheist masses aren’t reading them anyway.
27. Phrase everything as if it’s a lecture so you look like you know what you’re talking about. See #23 about atheists being idiots and #24 about people not reading anything you post you’ll see that the silly atheists will fall for it every time. In particular they won’t look back to the earlier part of the discussion to see how I’m contradicting myself. This is very well aided by another tactic:
28. As soon as you make an ass of yourself break the conversation into a new thread. That way all the newcomers (see #25 on how they are waiting to have their souls saved) will not bother to read back and see how ignorant you are.
29. If someone points out to you that citing Wikipedia is not an adequate source for the discussion at hand you can always find a good undergraduate philosophy paper to cite instead.
30. Never question another Christian no matter how incorrect or offensive their position.
31. Just remember that you can define a term any way you want and you are always right!
How do you keep a wacky waco paranoid in line like janet reno? Was she untouchable?
You are a liar and a charlatan, respond with the ad hominem fallacy if you wish. Many of us would agree that the defense of your faith slipped into fanaticism some time ago.
One has to wonder why CNN repeatedly has John Blake write commentaries on the belief blog when he knows diddly squat about anything he writes.
Chad
That would make Jones a cult of personality type more in like with the Kims of Korea than your average American nonbeliever. Remember also that Jones ended up resenting the prominent American atheists of his time because they snubbed him. Seems pretty clear why they would.
@Ben "That would make Jones a cult of personality type more in like with the Kims of Korea than your average American nonbeliever"
@Chad "The Kims of Korea are also atheists, as were the other most famous cult of personality leaders examples like Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Mussolini. Please explain to me how it is possible to talk about the danger of cult of personality leaders and NOT mention that the most horrid examples of same are atheists, AND at the same time erroneously lump one of those atheists (Jim Jones) in with "religious" groups.
====
@Ben "Remember also that Jones ended up resenting the prominent American atheists of his time because they snubbed him. Seems pretty clear why they would."
@Chad "It is good to police ones ranks, but that doesnt make Jim Jones not an atheist, nor their categorization of him as "religious" any less erroneous.
@The Deceiving Chad "You are a liar and a charlatan"
@observer said I could use this quote from him, seems to suit the current situation nicely
"“Your ignorance in constantly calling people "liars" show that you don't have clue what the word means. Please get a dictionary and better education.”
Chad
You seem to be forgetting that personality cult leaders bear more in common with charismatic religious leaders than ordinary atheists. How can you possibly draw a line between average American nonbelievers and these dictators? Also, was Mussolini ever anything but a Catholic?
@Ben "You seem to be forgetting that personality cult leaders bear more in common with charismatic religious leaders than ordinary atheists"
@Chad "google "cult of personality", then count the number of atheists on the pages that come up.
case closed..
@Ben Also, was Mussolini ever anything but a Catholic?"
@Chad "well, easy way to find out. Do some research and you'll find that in his early twenties he proclaimed himself to be an atheist and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead.
Just for you chad
Holy Hallucinations 35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XTCRdC8Dlo
The Chard says: @Chad "google "cult of personality", then count the number of atheists on the pages that come up.
case closed.."
I love it. "Case closed." What a friggin' azztool you are, Chard.
Oops
Yeah, I've got to add "Case closed" to the list. As far as I can tell the idea is to add it when you have a half-assed argument that you know will get picked apart if the conversation goes on.
That list is going to be as long as your arm, Sara. I'm waiting for Chard to say something equally inane, like "Wake up, people!" next. What a clown.
@Saraswati "Yeah, I've got to add "Case closed" to the list. As far as I can tell the idea is to add it when you have a half-assed argument that you know will get picked apart if the conversation goes on."
=>so you googled "cult of personality" and didnt like the results...
and that triggered another ad-hominem..
as well, arent you a determinist? As such, what business do you have criticizing anyone for anything?
Dont you think that causal deterministic laws control the motion of atoms, and that everything – including human minds – consists merely of atoms in a void?
I'm curious, Chad. You're on about determinism and the immorality of criticism again. What is the origin of that? Is something you've come up with on your own?
Wow...13, 16, 17, 23 and 27. It's actually pretty good entertainment watching him try to build wobbly castles with his tiny little toolbox.
"Dont you think that causal deterministic laws control the motion of atoms, and that everything – including human minds – consists merely of atoms in a void?"
No.
And where you get such nonsense is a good question. I'm glad TTTOO asked you that. I'll bet you'll post some long-winded answer full of snark and slime and then accuse anyone who disagrees with committing the unpardonable sin of ad hominem.
@Tom, Tom, the Other One "You're on about determinism and the immorality of criticism again. What is the origin of that? Is something you've come up with on your own?"
=>you havent heard of the debate free will vs determinism?
you should do some reading up on it:
fascinating problem for the atheist
-if you believe in free will, how can you possibly provide a natural explanation for it?
-If you dont believe in free will, why are you getting so angry at other people? Are they not just executing along in a deterministic manner?
The question of free will is one which has been hotly debated for millennia. Some people believe that humans have the capacity for free will – the ability to choose their actions without being forced to follow a certain course by either by the influence of others or by natural laws. For many theists, free will is regarded as a special gift from God. The notion of human free will is also an important premise for a lot of what happens in human society – in particular, when it comes to our legal system. Free will is necessary for the notion of personal responsibility. If people do not have free will, then it is difficult to argue that they are personally and morally responsible for their actions – and if that is the case, how can they be punished for their misdeeds? In fact, how can they be praised for the good things they do, if those actions were not also freely chosen?
Others, however, argue that if the universe itself is deterministic in nature, then human actions must also be deterministic – thus, modern determinism tends to be an outgrowth of modern science. If human actions simply follow the course of natural law, then it is difficult to hold that those actions can be "freely" chosen. Those who advocate determinism run into something of a contradiction, however, when they try to argue their point with those who argue for free will. If it is true that nothing is freely chosen, then those who believe in the existence of free will do not do so by choice – so what is the point of trying to convince them otherwise? Indeed, what is the point of trying to convince anyone of anything if all events are determined?
@ Saraswati I don't need to define free will since Christians are the one introducing it. I don't believe in it and don't use the term except in discussions about how it is meaningless. It is a filler word used for pragmatic reasons much as "common sense". For Christians to use it they must define it as existing outside the normal flow of determinism and something more than random or probabalistic events.
January 15, 2013 at 7:41 pm
"Some people believe". Which of these words do you not understand, Chard? "Some" doesn't mean "all". "Believe" doesn't mean that it's a fact.
These aren't facts, Chard. They're opinions.
@real Tom,
He's not capable of getting it. Really, he can't. It's the most extreme case of confirmation bias I've ever seen and I don't think he has the ability to ever see around it.
It seems that Chad thinks of determinism as being like particles in a box. One cannot hold heat accountable for moving from a source to a sink. He thinks he can hold up a God that can comprehend a Universe full of agents of free will, but can't imagine a Universe deterministic but running as a program that even in its entirety can't predict its future state.
Well, then, he has no creativity or imagination.
And in other news, water is wet.
"It seems that Chad thinks of determinism as being like particles in a box."
=>I thought that @saraswati had a good definition
@Chad "You seemingly have determined that all animals/humans are essentially the same as rocks..."
@ Saraswati Yep, more or less, though I don't use the exact terminology you use in the rest of the sentence regarding determinism, but lets go with "close enough". We are conscious rocks in this particular regard.
January 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm
@Chad, "You'll need to define "free will", and "no free will""
@Saraswati "I don't need to define free will since Christians are the one introducing it. I don't believe in it and don't use the term except in discussions about how it is meaningless. It is a filler word used for pragmatic reasons much as "common sense". For Christians to use it they must define it as existing outside the normal flow of determinism and something more than random or probabalistic events. Note that you already stated "I would agree that without free will, punishment is immoral." so I think we can assume we are referring to the same pragmatic usage of the term.
January 15, 2013 at 7:41 pm
I am curious about this, Chad: can you show by any means that whenever you've made a choice that it was possible for you to choose otherwise?
Free will is probably impossible to prove, no matter what you pick that can always said to have been deterministically done.
However, if you actually DO believe in free will, why are you critical of theists?
Chad
Sh1t man, you think I used the scam of christianity to achieve my goals, dead wrong. I believe in the
empty tomb
crucifixion and resurrection
theistic evolution
intelligent design
that the universe had a beginning
the zombie wine to blood, wafer to flesh ritual
Did I miss anything? We are all in heaven come join us, eat the nightshade berries.
@CHAD: "Free will is probably impossible to prove"
we have been through this "free will" is easier proven than your god.
free will (example one) i reach out and slap you.
two possible situations:
1) god deemed i should slap you in his plan.
2) i have free will and slapped you just because the impulse from my brain made it to my hand then my hand reached out and connected with your face.
see free will proven, god fails.
@WASP "see free will proven, god fails."
@Chad "if you believe you have free will, by what natural, physical mechanism is this possible?
that's the problem with an atheist who believes in free will, that notion is irreconcilable with a deterministic material universe.
Chad has a problem with rational thinking. He gets an idea, perhaps reads an opinion, then decides it's an immutable fact simply because it agrees with what he thinks. It's rather foolish of him, because he is easily proven wrong, but he refuses to recognize the truth.
I can't decide if Chad is a highly dedicated troll, if he is simply irrationally arrogant, or if he really is as mentally ill as he presents himself.
@CHAD CHAD CHAD................(SHAKES HEAD.)
we have been through this over and over. determinism is as follows per defintion.
DETERMINISM:1
a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws
b : a belief in predestination
2: the quality or state of being determined
PREDESTINATION:1: the act of predestinating : the state of being predestinated
2: the doctrine that GOD in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation.
-now then. this fits more with your GOD complex than with a knowledge driven atheist seeking answers and believeing that we make the future.
personally i'm only destined to do one thing and that is die at the end of my body's ability to survive in this hostile eviroment we call EARTH.
oxygen is corrosive, friction destroys tissues in the joints, loss of bone and muscle density impairs ability to move/ escape danger, etc etc etc. the earth isn't perfect for human life, it's lethal to our lives. at only 20% oxygen, 79% nitrogen, and 1% other gases what we breath in alone causes damage to our organs and if you have that mixture a higher pressures it turns poisoness to our bodies.