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 The Branch Davidians, a religious sect led by David Koresh, clashed with federal agents in 1993 in Waco, Texas.
April 28th, 2013
06:00 AM ET
When religious beliefs become evil: 4 signsBy John Blake, CNN (CNN) - An angry outburst at a mosque. The posting of a suspicious YouTube video. A friendship with a shadowy imam. Those were just some of the signs that Tamerlan Tsarnaev, accused of masterminding the Boston Marathon bombings, had adopted a virulent strain of Islam that led to the deaths of four people and injury of more than 260. But how else can you tell that someone’s religious beliefs have crossed the line? The answer may not be as simple you think, according to scholars who study all brands of religious extremism. The line between good and evil religion is thin, they say, and it’s easy to make self-righteous assumptions. “When it’s something we like, we say it’s commitment to an idea; when it’s something we don’t like, we say it’s blind obedience,” said Douglas Jacobsen, a theology professor at Messiah College in Pennsylvania. Yet there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter “There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Here are four warning signs: 1. I know the truth, and you don’t. On the morning of July 29, 1994, the Rev. Paul Hill walked up to John Britton outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, and shot the doctor to death. Hill was part of a Christian extremist group called the Army of God, which taught that abortion was legalized murder. Hill’s actions were motivated by a claim that virtually all religions espouse: We have the truth that others lack. Those claims can turn deadly when they become absolute and there is no room for interpretation, Kimball says. “Absolute claims can quickly move into a justification of violence against someone who rejects that claim,” Kimball said. “It’s often a short step.” Healthy religions acknowledge that sincere people can disagree about even basic truths, Kimball says. The history of religion is filled with examples of truths that were once considered beyond questioning but are no longer accepted by all followers: inerrancy of sacred scripture, for example, or the subjugation of women and sanctioning of slavery. If someone like Hall believes that they know God’s truth and they cannot be wrong, watch out, Kimball says. “Authentic religious truth claims are never as inflexible as zealous adherents insist,” he writes in “When Religion Becomes Evil.” Yet there’s a flip side to warnings about claiming absolute truth: Much of religion couldn’t exist without them, scholars say. Many of history’s greatest religious figures – Moses, Jesus, the Prophet Mohammed – all believed that they had discovered some truth, scholars say. Ordinary people inflamed with a sense of self-righteousness have made the same claim and done good throughout history, says Carl Raschke, a theology professor at the University of Denver in Colorado. The Protestant Reformation was sparked by an angry German monk who thought he had the truth, Raschke says. “Martin Luther’s disgust at the worldliness of the papacy in the early 1500s inspired him to become a radical revolutionary whose ideas overturned the entire political structure in Europe,” Raschke said. So how do you tell the difference between the healthy claims of absolute truth and the deadly? Scholars say to look at the results: When people start hurting others in the name of their religious truth, they’ve crossed the line. 2. Beware the charismatic leader. It was one of the deadliest terrorist attacks in Japanese history. In March 1995, a religious sect called Aum Shinrikyo released a deadly nerve gas in a Tokyo subway station, leaving 12 people dead and 5,000 injured. Two months later, Japanese police found Shoko Asahara, the sect’s founder, hiding in a room filled with cash and gold bars. Kimball, who tells the story of the sect in “When Religion Becomes Evil,” says Asahara had poisoned the minds of his followers years before. Asahara demanded unquestioned devotion from members of his sect and isolated followers in communities where they were told that they no longer needed to think for themselves, Kimball says. Any religion that limits the intellectual freedom of its followers, he says, has become dangerous. “When you start to get individuals who are the sole interpreters of truth, you get people who follow them blindly." Charismatic leaders, though, often don’t start off being cruel. Jim Jones, who led the mass suicide of his followers in South America, was a gifted speaker who built an interracial church in San Francisco that did much good in the community. Few people at the beginning of his ministry could predict what he would become. As time went on, though, his charisma turned cruel as he tolerated no questions to his authority and became delusional. “Charismatic leadership is important, but in healthy religions, there’s always a process where questions are encouraged,” Kimball said. Weaning followers away from corrupt charismatic leaders and bad religion can take years, but it can be done if one knows how to speak their language, says Ed Husain, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt will often deploy imams to reach out to young men in prison who have adopted “Islamism,” or extreme forms of Islam sanctioning violence against civilians, says Husain, who has written about Muslim extremism. These Muslim clerics know the Quran better than the extremists and can use their knowledge to reach extremists in a place that logic and outsiders cannot penetrate, Husain said. “The antidote to extremism is religion itself,” Husain said. “The problem is not to take Islam out of the debate but to use Islam to counter Islamism.” 3. The end is near. In 1970, an unknown pastor from Texas wrote a book called “The Late, Great Planet Earth.” The book, which linked biblical prophecy with political events like Israel’s victory in the 1967 Six-Day War, predicted the imminent return of an antichrist and the end of the world. Author Hal Lindsey’s book has sold an estimated 15 million copies and spawned a genre of books like the “Left Behind” series. Many people are fascinated by the idea that the heavens will open soon because the end is near. That end-times theology can turn lethal, though, when a follower decides that he or she will speed up that end-time by conducting some dramatic or violent act, says John Alverson, chairman of the theology department at Carlow University in Pittsburgh. “A religious terrorist mistakenly believes that God has ordained or called him or her to establish the will of God on Earth now, not gradually and not according to the slow and finicky free will of other humans,” Alverson said. Yet this impulse to see God’s intervention in human affairs now and not in some distant future can also be good, he says. There are vibrant religious communities that teach that political and economic injustice must be addressed now. Liberation theology, for example, was a movement among pastors and theologians in Latin America that called for justice for the poor now, not in some future apocalyptic event, Alverson says. “Hope is a good breakfast but not much of a supper,” Alverson said. “We can’t just live on the hope that justice will happen; we have to actually experience justice from time to time so that our hope can continue.” 4. The end justifies the means. It was one of the biggest scandals the Roman Catholic Church ever faced, and the repercussions are still being felt today. In January 2002, the Boston Globe published a story about Father John Geoghan, a priest who had been moved around various parishes after Catholic leaders learned that he had abused children. It was later revealed that Catholic officials had quietly paid at least $10 million to settle lawsuits against Geoghan. Kimball says the Catholic scandal revealed another sign that a faith has turned toxic: Religious figures start justifying doing something wrong for a higher good. “The common theme was trying to protect the integrity of the church,” Kimball said of some Catholic leaders who covered up the crimes. “You get all of these rationalizations that we can’t let this scandal bring the whole church down, so we have to pay off this family and send the priests off to rehab.” Religion is supposed to be a force for good. Still, it’s common that everyone from suicide bombers to venal church figures finds ways to justify their behavior in the name of some higher good. Those rationalizations are so pervasive that religious movements that avoid them stand out, scholars say. Jacobsen, the theology professor from Messiah College, cited the civil rights movement. The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and his fellow activists renounced violence, even as they were attacked and sometimes murdered. “They were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in, but what’s incredible is, they practiced not retaliating when they suffered violence,” he said. “Those people really believed that God created everyone equal, and they were committed to the point of death.” In some ways, it’s easy to say we would never adopt a form of religion that’s evil. But when we use the word “evil” to describe those who kill in the name of their faith, we’re already mimicking what we condemn, Jacobsen says. In his new book, “No Longer Invisible: Religion in University Education,” Jacobson writes that calling a religion evil is dangerous because “bad or wrong actions can be corrected, but typically evil needs to be destroyed.” CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories “To label someone or something as evil is to demonize it, putting it in a category of otherness where the rules of normal life do not apply, where the end often justifies almost any means,” Jacobson writes. And when we do that, we don’t have to read about radical imams or look at angry YouTube videos to see how easy it is for someone to drift toward religious extremism, he says. We need only look at ourselves. soundoff (3,810 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Until the left media publishes cartoons of Muhammed or a picture of Muhammad in dung I know they are still gutless.
Until you start your own political blog and do just that, you are still gutless.
I was reading it and thought of the left and Obama – charismatic leader whose followers have abandoned all skepticism and reasoned thought.
You need to look at your own party Miguel. Most of your party lost their reasoning when you allowed the Tea Party to dictate everything to the extreme. You lost Independents and moderate Republicans because of that.
I cane here to find out how many posts I would have to read before I found an off-topic, meaningless, stupid post. Only took one and it was yours. Congratulations.
Miguel, that's adorable. Now fuck off.
Gee, I think it is evil to have a religious hierarchy that excludes women based on gender. That rules out most religions right away.
I also think it is evil for any religious organization to take tax benefits and tell their members what and who to vote for.
We have some new pamphlets available in our church news rack including "Bible Bafflers," "Satan's B.oners" and "Good Grief, More Satan's B.oners" and for you teens, "It's Not Cool to Fry in Hell."
"Hill’s actions were motivated by a claim that virtually all religions espouse: We have the truth that others lack." Here we have the great paradox of religion. They cannot all be true. What is more likely, then, that there is only one true faith, and all of its followers are somehow "chosen" while everyone else is being duped? Or..... that we humans should exhibit a more humility and much less hubris about knowing the true nature of God, our universe, its origins, and try to learn something from the evidence that surrounds us? All of our human religions are wrong in some way, and its time for us to shed the arrogance and make peace with this reality. The truth, if we ever discover it, I'm sure will be far more astounding and awe-inspiring than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any of the other fairy tales that currently exist.
You find a close resemblance between religious fervor and violence.Are you purposely ignoring the social fervor, left and right ,of Christians and Muslims, by such butchers that visited us in the 30's to 50'S.There are uncomfortable people applauding the kind of bias you espouse with AP,Cnn,NBC and quite a few others.Consider today"s and Yesterdays"S mad men.They were were selected by the thinking man.
When religious beliefs become evil? Well, when confederates set aside their confederate flag and start wrapping themselves in the American flag and begin calling themselves patriots!
When anything espouses EVIL, it is NOT a religion - it is a CULT. That's how it should be labelled and then treated accordingly. If JIHAD is actually part of that "religion", then it should be designated a CULT. If only part of that religion says it's part of their religion, I'd be interested in how it go there and how to make it GO AWAY.
Pretty convenient to just rename something when it turns bad, huh?
what make personal struggle (jihad) evil. even Christians go throw Jihad. what makes a cult is simple its, a charismatic leader.
if you worship a 1. dem-god, 2. an avatar, or a 3. human your in a cult
game time
the following people are worshiped, and have said this about them selves.
1. dem-god – i am the son of god
2. an avatar – i am god in the flesh fully god and fully man
3. human – I'm just a prophet
Stalin 1 & 3
Kim Il-sung 2
Jesus 1 2 & 3
Oprah 3
Shoko Asahara 1 2 & 3
Mohamed 3
Those four warning signs are present in all religions all the time....
The Bible is inherently evil ... it says to go WMD on any non Christian nations .
Oh just about everything is a sin. Have you ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we’re not allowed to go to the bathroom.
and to think that the Bible is a prank and that a good portion of the entire humanity fell for it... incredible!
There are not a lot of laws in the Bible. If you would read the Bible you would know that the laws are directed to particular groups and not to everyone. For example: When Abraham took his people to the wildnerness, they had certain food laws that are in the Bible that only applied to Abrahams people. It was not a law for us/ everyone.
yeah ... nice try ..
@Brandon
You got any scriptural references for that? Can you go through the entire 613 commandments in the bible and tell us which one each is?
read the book of Ezekiel .. where is says to go WMD on any non Christian nation .. or people he is saying exterminating genocide i ok
So much for the sake of forgiveness
The Bible also establish the basis for racism as it defines one people being better than anybody else
SO, yes, if God truly exists, the Bible was written by the devil, not by God
When is CNN going to grow a pair and talk about the evils of Islam. They wont because they are scared someone will kill them.
I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens, he came in peace and then died, only to come back to life, and his name was E.T., the extra terrestrial. I loved that little guy.
They do, but you want to persecute all Muslims for a group of extremists so you are ignorant of what CNN writes.
Came back to life after dying ???? B. S.
I cast thee OUT!!
CNN does not like Christians. They promote pro Muslim beliefs, gay rights, etc... and disrespect Christianity every chance they get. CNN could at least be equal to Christianity and stop reporting on only the bad aspects of Christianity.
@Brandon, you seem to have a selective view of what CNN publishes. Go back a month and see the amount of coverage CNN gave to the new pope. Little to none of that was negative. If anything, they down-played the link between the old pope and the child abuse cover up.
The examples in this article were cults. islam is a religion with millions of followers.
This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants, designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times, but first, let's pass the collection plate.
And evil and nontolerate.
You can believe your own faith is true and still be tolerant of others. Probably everybody has a slightly different perspective on these matters, because they are arrived at so personally. You can admire the faith of people who differ widely from yours, when you notice the work and sincerity they have undertaken and the joy they have arrived at. There is no inconsistency in holding firm to your beliefs and respecting those of others.
There are some of us who believe that respecting the beliefs of others is good and necessary (www.uua.org).
I like the article & think it's very well written. I think that 'Bad Sign #1' is probably the most important: "I know the truth & you don't". There is not one real historical religion out there (good luck arguing over that one) whose founder does not recognize the truth of religion in the past, & the truth of religion in the future. YET–nearly every follower of every religion whole-heartedly believes that he/she is "saved" & all others are "lost". This seems odd & counter-productive, as the avowed purpose of religion is to make the believer tolerant, truth-seeking & humble. If religion makes one smug & intolerant, then no religion would be preferable.
I do not know much about the details of many religions but the Christian faith I follow is not evil but some evil men and women do get in positions of leadership.
That your god would allow evil people, priests raping your children, etc. to run your cult should be a red flag that your cult is not divine in any way but a sham and a scam. Trying growing a brain.
JJ, God allows you to make the choice and if He did not you would complain about that. So be atheist and join that religion.
Well, evil tends to be relative, doesn't it?
So ezra....your god lets your priests make a choice on if they want to rape children or not. Your sky god gives them this choice? Does he give this same choice to the child? Of course you'll wiggle out of that one too. To support and justify the rape of children is the most repulsive part of Christianity. You're disgusting.
JJ, no one here even thinks about raping children so do no try a switch-e-roo on me because you not that good. You have a reprobate mind so it is like arguing with a stop sign. Enjoy!
Reprobate mind...let's see, who else says that on here...HeavenSent, is that you, you crazy old bat?
@ezra, I do know something about a lot of religions, both in terms of beliefs and histories. I find it odd seeing you comment on what you admit not knowing much about (odd because most people who post here won't admit that). Almost all major religions actually do have a single core belief that that Christianity states as "the golden rule". As an atheist, I don't believe atheism really is a religion, but most of us do subscribe to that as well.
JJ- Guess it boils down to free will vs. predetermination. If you believe in free will, then evil people will be able to do evil, and it's largely up to good people to try to stop them. If you believe in predetermination, then if people do evil, it's gods fault.
Healthy religions acknowledge that sincere people can disagree about even basic truths, Kimball says.
This an absolute claim!!!!
How dare Kimball not acknowledge that people disagree with hist statement and believe in absolutes
Yes, religion can turn evil. One example is liberal secular humanism and its oppressive and bigoted dogmas of political correctness.
Wow
Wow absolutely clueless.
And the Lord said, "Whack ye all the serpents which crawl upon their bellies, and thy town shall be a beacon unto others." So you see, Lisa, even God Himself endorses Whacking Day.
You are right on! If you do not believe you should see how many times you are called a bigot. Its their incantation when someone tells the truth about them.
Is this one of those immediately-biased, overly unnecessary attacks that the article is basically discussing? You know the truth and we don't, we're the enemy, all that jazz?
ANY time your beliefs state that your belief is the ONLY TRUE belief, and that you must convert others to your beliefs, is inherently evil!
Without the influence of liberal secularists in the past two centuries,ALL religions would be running amuck with murderous intent and their hands on all governments.Now wouldn't that be a wonderful god fearin' world to live and die in?
Aw, someone's been told recently to take down his confederate flag, huh? Stings a little?
Am I right in thinking you were home-schooled?
Great example, John. Two others are Christian fundamentalis and Jewish Hasidism, both of which espouse a politics of bigotry, isolationism, and exclusion of the other with the most arrogant righteousness imaginable. Another is Islamic fundamentalism with its politics of hatred and Jihad. ANY religion or philosophy can become evil and toxic if it adopts the view that it is the absolute truth and everything else is heretical.
You need to be more specific about the sort of political correctness you are referring to. If you are talking about strict segregation of church and state, you are need to understand that freedom of religion includes freedom from having someone else's religion imposed upon you. Any official recognition of religion disenfranchises those who are not believers.
When religious beliefs become evil? Well, when Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites revolt against each other because they just can't come to grips over why GWB and the GOP would invade and destabilize their country during peace times. Hey, the last time a western power invaded a country during peace time was in 1938 and 39 respectively when Nazi Germany invaded Austria and Poland. But to show they have no ill feelings towards the United States, the Sunnis and Shiites are sending a picture of their war ravished villages to the Bush library as a good gesture! O' and a pressure cooker!
This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants, designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times, but first, let's pass the collection plate.
Well if you can not stand by GWB why did you not stand in front of him. You are blowhard. In my area we call you someone with a bulldog mouth with a Chihuahua a$$....and very ignorant.
Ezra: in all other areas, you are called a douche.
How is it that:
A. When Muslim extremism turns evil isnt the title of the article?
B. An atheist (Jim Jones) is cited as an example of religious fanaticism?
The authors agenda is pretty clear.
Yeah well I am glad he is going after religious bigots like you. There is no God so deal with it. For one to claim that his is the one true God over thousands of other Godly deities in the world shows how selfish and immoral people like you are.
I cast thee OUT!
Because ANY religion has the potential to inspire violence and extremism, Chardo. What is so difficult for you to grasp? And stop already trying to pretend that Jim Jones didn't believe in a god. He did: himself. Sometimes you appear to have the same blindness.
Chad, There is no evidence that JJ was an atheist.
The real Tom he probably believes that Hitler was an Atheist too.
@Chad,
"[How is it that] An atheist (Jim Jones) is cited as an example of religious fanaticism?"
Because he isn't. He's cited as a charismatic leader.
"Charismatic leaders, though, often don’t start off being cruel. Jim Jones, who led the mass suicide of his followers in South America,..."
Additionally, regardless of his own ideology, communism, he incited/instigated religious fanaticism.
Chad, great observation.
Ah the irony! Blake posts a blog entry on when religious beliefs become evil claiming to know the truth and yet his very first point to bolster this claim is 'I know the truth and you don't' .Isn't that ironical?!?
The author says religion, not any specific religion, could be any cult or cult leaders from any where in the world not just your judeo/christian god's inspired cults. No wonder you cannot think outside the box with those blinders on.
Jones: Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist.http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/Tapes/Tapes/TapeTranscripts/Q622.html
Jim Jones was a pastor and founder of a church called the Peoples Temple. He led his entire congregation to South America where they could live according to their principles. He ended up convincing all 909 members of his congregation to poison themselves, including some 200 children. Get your facts straight before opening your mouth.
What the fvck is your problem, IAM?
Agendize, dismiss.....got it!....thanks for the comment....
Oops, my bad. I misread your post. Mea culpa.
I'm a agreeing with you real Tom. I was just saying that the fool above probably believes Hitler was an Atheist as well.
The potential for religious extremism isn't confined to Islam.
Did Jim Jones use his atheism to control the situation or did he use religious belief?
@Cheesemakers "The potential for religious extremism isn't confined to Islam."
@Chad "the VAST majority of religious violence today is from Islam. That simply can not even be argued.
===
@Cheesemakers "Did Jim Jones use his atheism to control the situation or did he use religious belief?"
@Chad "as an atheist, he used distorted "religious" concepts to pull people in then indoctrinate them in atheism.
@Logan "Jim Jones was a pastor and founder of a church called the Peoples Temple. He led his entire congregation to South America where they could live according to their principles. He ended up convincing all 909 members of his congregation to poison themselves, including some 200 children. Get your facts straight before opening your mouth."
@Chad "here are the facts:
By the spring of 1976, Jones began openly admitting even to outsiders that he was an atheist.
The Temple openly preached to established members that "religion is an opiate to the people." (Jones, Jim. "Transcript of Recovered FBI tape Q 1053." Alternative Considerations of Jonestown and Peoples Temple. Jonestown Project: San Diego State University.)
Accordingly,"those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment – socialism."
(Layton 1999, page 53).
In that regard, Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism."
(Jones, Jim. "Transcript of Recovered FBI tape Q 757." Alternative Considerations of Jonestown and Peoples Temple. Jonestown Project: San Diego State University).
@Chad ""[How is it that] An atheist (Jim Jones) is cited as an example of religious fanaticism?"
@ME II "Because he isn't. He's cited as a charismatic leader.
@Chad "dude.. what? charismatic religious eader you mean. You see any of the REAL examples of killer charismatic leaders (the atheist ones) in this article? (other than the erroneously listed Jim Jones that is..)
Yet there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence.
“There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.”
=====
@ME II "Additionally, regardless of his own ideology, communism, he incited/instigated religious fanaticism."
@Chad "how do you figure? Is the act or mass suicide automatically "religious fanaticism". That's nuts..
On the death tape, Jones urged Temple members to commit "revolutionary suicide".[132] Such "revolutionary suicide" had been planned by the Temple before and, according to Jonestown defectors, its theory was "you can go down in history, saying you chose your own way to go, and it is your commitment to refuse capitalism and in support of socialism
=========
@The Deceiving "The author says religion, not any specific religion, could be any cult or cult leaders from any where in the world not just your judeo/christian god's inspired cults. No wonder you cannot think outside the box with those blinders on."
@Chad "Histories greatest killers and best examples of cult of personality are atheist.
Why isnt that anywhere in the article?
Jim Jones
Benito Mussolini
Jeffrey Dahmer
Cho Seung-Hui (Va. Tech Gunman)
Kim Jong Il
Than Shwe is the 77 year old dictator of Myanmar/Burma
Napoleon Bonaparte
Mao Zedong
Pol Pot
Joseph Stalin
@Chad,
(sigh)
He was used as an example of a charismatic leader, as previously cited. I'm not sure what the other examples have to do with it.
He built his entire organization originally as a church, capitalizing (irony intended) on religion as means to fanaticism. In the end, the communist/socialist goal were brought into the open, after the his charisma and the religious fanaticism allowed him the near blind obedience of his followers.
While he apparently was not religious, it is seemingly undeniable that he used religion to gain power, hence "When religious beliefs become evil".
"The author's agenda is pretty clear."
So's yours, Chardo.
Sorry for the atrocious typing:
@Chad "the VAST majority of religious violence today is from Islam. That simply can not even be argued.
That doesn't refute my point that the potential is still there. I would agree that religious terrorism is dominated by muslims but religious violence is not confined to just terrorism. One example is the political situation in Uganda where they are trying to criminalize ho.mose.xual behavior and make it a capital offense based on their Christian belief. Teaching chldren that he.ll is real is form of abuse. If you don't think there are christians who justify personal violent acts because they think god is on their side you are not being honest.
@Chad "as an atheist, he used distorted "religious" concepts to pull people in then indoctrinate them in atheism.
Really? I have read and seen multiple accounts by witnesses who were there who never said anything about being 'indoctinated into atheism'. I think you should provide sources for you claim.
@ME II
=>A. if you do some reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple
you'll see that communism/socialism and a destruction of Christianity was the explicit goal as far back as 20 years before the massacre.
B. Listing Jim Jones as an example of a "charismatic religious leader" is an outright falsification. Were a Christian to make such a blatant error like that they would be publicly excoriated and rightly so.
Peoples Temple was a quasi-religious organization founded in 1955 by Jim Jones. By the mid-1970s it included over a dozen locations in California including its headquarters in San Francisco. Despite its public persona as a Christian church, Jones was in fact an atheist[1] who intentionally adopted the guise of an Evangelical Christian preacher in an attempt to destroy the Christian religion and replace it with Communist ideology.
@Chad "as an atheist, he used distorted "religious" concepts to pull people in then indoctrinate them in atheism.
@Cheese "Really? I have read and seen multiple accounts by witnesses who were there who never said anything about being 'indoctinated into atheism'. I think you should provide sources for you claim."
@Chad I guess you somehow missed that.
Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism."
(Jones, Jim. "Transcript of Recovered FBI tape Q 757." Alternative Considerations of Jonestown and Peoples Temple. Jonestown Project: San Diego State University).
I decided, how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church. So I consciously made a decision to look into that prospect. - Jim Jones
@ME II
in general, your attempt to claim that a charismatic atheist who infiltrates a church to convert its followers to atheism/marxism is somehow an example of "When religious beliefs become evil", is UTTER nonsense.
Chard: do you agree that JJ was charismatic? That he used religion to control people, even if he didn't believe it himself?
Apparently you think that including him in this article is somehow dishonest. Why?
"is UTTER nonsense." It most certainly is not.
"Chard: do you agree that he used religion to control people, even if he didn't believe it himself?"
=>no, the record doesnt show that.
Using religion to control means using "God wants you to do this" or "you need to do this to be a good religious person", that kind of thing.
There is ZERO trace of any of that in the accounts I read.
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/JonestownReport/Volume9/Brooks.htm
http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/jonestown.aspx
http://www.guyana.org/features/jonestown.html
He had an overtly marxist agenda from the beginning.
I decided, how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church. So I consciously made a decision to look into that prospect. – Jim Jones
Well he used religious belief to manipulate. No big news here. Faith healers, tele-evangelists, mega church leaders have been using peoples religious faith for their own purposes. Religion is used because "faith" does not require demonstration of truth and thus followers are already primed to belive absurdities, the step to atrocities is not a big one.
"Using religion to control means using "God wants you to do this" or "you need to do this to be a good religious person", that kind of thing."
Says who? You? Since when do you get to define words? Oh, wait. I forgot who I was responding to. You do it whenever it suits you as long as it supports your argument.
Is Chard one of the Club Stupid members who are always arguing that atheism IS a religion?
@Chad,
A) "In June 1973, Rep. George Brown (D-California) inserted a page-long tribute to Peoples Temple in the Congressional Record. Enti[]tled 'Peoples Temple Christian Church Supports First Amendment,'..."
(http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/PrimarySources/vol148p50.pdf)
I'm not claiming they were a religion just that they used it.
B) Who said, "charismatic religious leader"? I didn't, did I?
I don't think it is "UTTER nonsense" at all.
Wait for it....the ;):) and the =====> will start appearing any minute now.
@ME II "I'm not claiming they were a religion just that they used it."
@Chad "That was my point, Jones DIDNT use religion to control people. There is no evidence of that at all.
Seizing on the text string "Church" as evidence of "religious fanaticism" is pretty intellectually lazy on your part dont you think?
====
@Cheesemakers "Well he used religious belief to manipulate"
@Chad "no, the record doesnt show that.
Using religion to control means using "God wants you to do this" or "you need to do this to be a good religious person", that kind of thing.
There is ZERO trace of any of that in the accounts I read.
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/JonestownReport/Volume9/Brooks.htm
http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/jonestown.aspx
http://www.guyana.org/features/jonestown.html
He had an overtly marxist agenda from the beginning.
@ME II "Who said, "charismatic religious leader"? I didn't, did I?"
@Chad "are you seriously trying to make the case that the article DOESNT characterize Jones as a "charismatic religious leader"?
"Using religion to control means using "God wants you to do this" or "you need to do this to be a good religious person", that kind of thing."
Says who? Or did you just forget that I asked you that before? You don't get to define what 'using religion to control' means, Chard, no matter how much you wish you could.
@Chad
Whether or not Jones was actually an atheist (I know of no way to confirm those quotes, and you are notorious for quote mining and lying), in regards to this article it's completely irrelevant.
Jones was a nut job, and he gathered other crazy people around him using religion. Merely saying "oh he was misusing religion wah wah wah" doesn't change anything. The rhetoric is always that religion is a good thing, but people always ignore or brush off the evil that is directly caused by religion.
In your case, you just want to focus on the evils caused by religions that aren't yours, which adds having a double standard in addition to willful ignorance in this topic.
Chad,
This article is like you looking in the mirror. This is how you present yourself.
@Chads definition of "Using religion to control": using "God wants you to do this" or "you need to do this to be a good religious person", to influence the behavior of people.
what is yours?
cue ad-hominem attack.
"I don’t believe in any loving God" Jones
.
That is pretty accurate view of the OT.
Chad
When you continue to lie in your posts then resort to the ad hominem fallacy to defend the utter contempt people feel for you. Do you not get enough contempt at home?
"Richard Cranium
Christianity also teaches that your god created satan and turned him loose on the world. Which means your god is as evil as good, as hateful as loving.
There is a great deal of death, torture, slavery, mistreatment of women. You have cherry picked your bible. Even Jesus said the OT was still valid.
Read your bible if you want to try to talk about it, or better yet, put the bible down, and join us in reality."
.
Well said.
@Chad,
"Seizing on the text string "Church" as evidence of "religious fanaticism" is pretty intellectually lazy on your part dont you think?"
In June 1973, Rep. George Brown (D-California) inserted a page-long tribute to Peoples Temple in the Congressional Record. Enti[]tled “Peoples Temple Christian Church Supports First Amendment,” the tribute in the Record’s Extension of Remarks focuses on the group’s contribution of $4400 for the defense of Los Angeles Times reporter William Farr, who was threatened with imprisonment over his refusal to name his news sources.
“I would like to commend the Rev. James Jones, who is pastor of the church, and every member of his congregation for this outstanding demonstration of their commitment to the principles on which this country was founded,” the statement says in the opening paragraph.
The Temple reproduced the page and used it in its large press packet, along with complimentary letters from political and religious leaders, for public relations purposes. It is not known, however, why the Temple chose to excise Rep. Brown’s name from the first line of text.
(http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/PrimarySources/PTCongressionalRecord.htm)
Are you seriously trying to say that anyone actually stated "charismatic religious leader" as you quoted?
@ME II
A. LOL
B. So, you're just ignoring the stated activities and goals of the "temple", none of which included anything "religious", and you're going with misleading titles?
C. I guess what continuously astonishes me about you and others, is the disingenuous posts you do, that one being an excellent example, while simultaneously accusing me of same, but never being able to cite and example.
D. Are you seriously trying to say that this article doesnt characterize Jones as a "charismatic religious leader".
really?
When religious beliefs become evil: 4 signs
2. Beware the charismatic leader.
Yet there are ways to tell that a person’s faith has drifted into fanaticism if you know what to look and listen for, say scholars who have studied some of history’s most horrific cases of religious violence. “There are a lot of warning signs all around us, but we usually learn about them after a Jim Jones or a David Koresh,” said Charles Kimball, author of “When Religion Becomes Evil.”
...
Charismatic leaders, though, often don’t start off being cruel. Jim Jones, who led the mass suicide of his followers in South America
cue: disingenuous "well, it doesnt explicitly use the words "charismatic religious leader"
"what is yours?"
Where is your definition coming from, Chard? Where is it written that using religion to control people always involves telling them a god wants them to do something? You just want to use the definition you made up for the term "using religion to control" because it suits you.
The guy used religion to control people. There's nothing false about that. Cue emoticons and smiley faces.
"cue: disingenuous "well, it doesnt explicitly use the words "charismatic religious leader""
Gee, that sounds like the kind of thing you would do, Chard. In fact you have done so in every discussion you've had with anyone.
Why does it bother you so much that the words "religious fanaticism" appear in this article, Chard? Are you really going to claim that there are no fanatical Christians? Really?
Cue 🙂 and @ and ====>
@Chad
I'm wondering, what is the point of your current useless argument?
hawaiiguest
@Chad
I'm wondering, what is the point of your current useless argument?
.
Making a great example what the article talks about.
"Jones would repeatedly cite that passage to paint Jesus Christ as a communist, while at the same time attacking much of the text of the Bible.[13]"
That is using religion and god .
Looks like Chad ran off when the discussion took a turn he didn't care for.
The real tom
Right, Topher did the same thing, down his hole, these christian apologists seem to be a special class of invertebrates, funny how they all have that in common.
Oh, he's busy spinning his little rolodex of topics and will pop up with the same old arguments about some other bugaboo of his and be 🙂 and @ and ======> shortly, I'm sure.
@Chad,
"So, you're just ignoring the stated activities and goals of the 'temple', none of which included anything 'religious', and you're going with misleading ti[]tles?"
I was simply demonstrating that they did in fact use, at least the guise of, religion for their purposes, as demonstrated by their explicit use of those lables in a "large press packet". If you want to claim that they weren't a 'true' church, then go ahead, but they seemed happy to claim exactly that.
"I guess what continuously astonishes me about you and others, the disingenuous posts you do, that one being an excellent example,..."
I don't think it is disingenuous. It directly supported my point that he used religion for his own purposes. This is shown by their willingness to publicize themselves as a "church". Now, that church may not fit your definition of a religion, but they did use it.
Are you claiming that the People's Temple had no association with religion whatesoever? The evidence would seem to disagree:
"The Temple's religious message transitioned during this period, to one treading between atheism and the subtle notion that Jones was a Christ-like figure.[15] While Temple aides complained privately, Jones said that the new message was needed to foster members' dedication to the Temple's larger goals.[15] Jones maintained such implications until the mid-to-late 1970s"
In 1961, Jones claimed he had had a vision of Chicago coming under a nuclear attack
The Temple distributed pamphlets in cities along the route of these fund raising trips bragging of Jones's prowess at "spiritual healing", while not mentioning the Temple's Marxist goals.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple#cite_note-raven166-34)
@Cheesemakers "Jones would repeatedly cite that passage to paint Jesus Christ as a communist, while at the same time attacking much of the text of the Bible.[13]" That is using religion and god .
@Chad "well, if anyone that talks about religion "uses religion" then of course every single atheist in history has "used religion" to further their aim.
That type of logic leads to incorrect conclusions along these lines:
– atheist "religion is bad"
– theist "oh really, why?"
– atheist "well, religion is used to all kinds of horrific ends"
– theist "oh really? how?"
– atheist" "well, stalin, mao, pol-pot, jim jones all used religion and look at that!"
– theist "hunh?"
– atheist "see? that's why we need to outlaw religion! See all the bad things it does!"
utter nonsense.
@ME II
I think your definition of "religious" is overly broad to say the least
@Chad,
"I think your definition of 'religious' is overly broad to say the least"
I would agree that mine does not seem to match yours.
"utter nonsense." Yes, Chard, your post was utter nonsense. Jim Jones and David Koresh did more than just "talk about religion."
Really, are you going to claim there are no Christian fanatics whose beliefs are dangerous? Really?
There goes Chad lying again. The only people who try to use what Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot did to generalize a certain people are religious people arguing against atheism. Chad has used this multiple times, and will generalize atheists all day long, but when an argument comes up where religion has a direct causation with evil deeds, he will spin in circles.
Pathetic Chad, truly pathetic. Your lack of integrity really does know no bounds.
Martin Luther would be so proud of you right now.
Religious – relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.
..............
I would say the actual definition is broad regardless whether Chad accepts it or not
faith
the AnViL™
biggles = bigot
there is NO god. you are an idiot and should be sterilized. it is my sincere hope you have no contact with children – and if by chance you do – you should be restricted access to children immediately. tolerance of religious idiocy is coming to a swift end...we are reporting all posts that are filled with hate and make threats against christians to the president and congress and all national media outlets. CNN encourages these animals, like dorothy, to spew hate speech while blocking posts that support faith. enough is enough
sam
THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS? LOL Wow, give me a break. Time to fill out the Butthurt Form and submit it in triplicate.
sam stone
Pompous pious fvck Marriage equality is coming. If it bothers you, you can either put on your big boy pants and accept it, or you get get on your knees with your sidearm and go meet jeebus. Either way works for me
sam stone
we are just attacking the pompous fvcks who purport to speak for god, doogie
sam stone
Well, we know for certain that no one speaks for god more than iron age sheep molesters, eh?
sam stone
nicetry: oooh, proxy threats of hell. pretty scary, for those who believe such tripe. interesting that you wish to spend eternity with a being from whom you have to be "saved". sort of like a spiritual stockholm syndrome. anyway, get back on your knees, b1tch
sam stone we are just attacking the pompous fvcks who purport to speak for god, doogie.
sam stone
Amen? Pompous pious fvck Marriage equality is coming. If it bothers you, you can either put on your big boy pants and accept it, or you get get on your knees with your sidearm and go meet jeebus. Either way works for me
so, dorothy displays no violent tendencies or the propensity to angry outbursts. so, just keep reporting the demon possessed garbage to the fbi and hls
Once something has been approved by the Government, it’s no longer immoral.
Faith, you phone is being wiretapped even as we speak. Thanks for the heads-up. We'll be keeping an eye on you.
so, why hide, dorothy?
So there's hope for NAMBLA?
so, where is murdock, girls?
THE FOLLOWING IS PASTED FROM THE ARTICLE ABOVE. THE FOLLOWING DESCRIPTION ALSO FITS MAINSTREAM AMERICAN EVANGELISM NEARLY PERFECTLY
1. I know the truth, and you don’t.
On the morning of July 29, 1994, the Rev. Paul Hill walked up to John Britton outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida, and shot the doctor to death. Hill was part of a Christian extremist group called the Army of God, which taught that abortion was legalized murder. (AND SO THE REVEREND CONTRADICTED ANOTHER COMMANDMENT AND MURDERED SOMEONE ELSE, WHAT A GREAT EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW!, A TRUE CHRISTIAN!)
Hill’s actions were motivated by a claim that virtually all religions espouse: We have the truth that others lack.
(AND MOREOVER, THOSE WHO ESPOUSE THIS NOTION MAKE THIS KNOWN TO ALL OTHER PARTIES AT ALL TIMES. IN FACT, CHRISTIANS ENTER CONVERSATIONS WITH THIS BELIEF. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "PRE-SUPPOSITIONAL THINKING, AND IT IS THE FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN EVANGELISM)
Those claims can turn deadly when they become absolute and there is no room for interpretation, Kimball says.
(OR WORSE, THEY CAN NOT TURN DEADLY AND JUST BE NEEDLESSLY DIVISIVE AND SOCIALLY REGRESSIVE AND MANIFEST AS BIGOTRY, LIKE WE HAVE IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW)
“Absolute claims can quickly move into a justification of violence against someone who rejects that claim,” Kimball said. “It’s often a short step.”
(AHH IT'S TIME FOR EVERY CHRISTIAN'S FAVORITE UNIVERSAL JUSTIFICATION STATEMENT. EVERYBODY, TOGETHER NOW, "IF GOD IS FOR US, WHO CAN BE AGAINST US!" SOMEWHERE RAY LEWIS AND THE CONQUISTADORES ARE SMILING)
Healthy religions acknowledge that sincere people can disagree about even basic truths, Kimball says.
(MAYBE THE HEALTHY RELIGIOUS PLACES SHOULD TO MORE TO SHUT UP THE NOT-SO-HEALTHY ONES)
The history of religion is filled with examples of (CRUSADES AND) truths that were once considered (RIGHTEOUS AND) beyond questioning but are no longer accepted by all followers (THROUGH THE MIRACLE OF THE DISCOVERY OF FACT): inerrancy of sacred scripture, for example, or the subjugation of women and sanctioning of slavery.
If someone like Hall believes that they know God’s truth and they cannot be wrong, watch out, Kimball says.
(THIS IS AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF NEARLY EVERY MAINSTREAM EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN, AND THEY ALL KNOW IT)
“Authentic religious truth claims are never as inflexible as zealous adherents insist,” he writes in “When Religion Becomes Evil.”
(AND SO AMERICAN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOW BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT SORT OF CHARACTERISTICS THEY HAVE IN COMMON WITH AL QUEDA)