home
RSS
When Christians become a 'hated minority'
Evangelical Christians say they are the new victims of intolerance - they're persecuted for condemning homosexuality.
May 5th, 2013
06:00 AM ET

When Christians become a 'hated minority'

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens.

During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him.

“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group.

We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot.

As proof, Sprigg points to the backlash that ESPN commentator Chris Broussard sparked recently. Broussard was called a bigot and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns homosexuality.

“In the current culture, it takes more courage for someone like Chris Broussard to speak out than for someone like Jason Collins to come out,” says Sprigg, a former pastor. “The media will hail someone who comes out of the closet as gay, but someone who simply expresses their personal religious views about homosexual conduct is attacked.”

When is disagreement hate?

Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Illinois, says Christians should be able to publicly say that God designed sex to take place within a marriage between a man and a woman.

“That isn’t so outrageous,” Litfin says. “Nobody is expressing hate toward homosexuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?”

But quoting the Bible doesn't inoculate anyone from becoming a bigot or hater, some scholars say. There's a point at which a Christian's opposition to homosexuality can become bigotry, and even hate speech, they say.

Crossing such a line has happened many times in history.

A literal reading of the Bible was used to justify all sorts of hatred: slavery, the subjugation of women and anti-Semitism, scholars and pastors say.

“Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief,” says Mark D. Jordan, author of “Recruiting Young Love: How Christians Talk about Homosexuality.”

“Some religious beliefs, sincerely held, are detestable. They cannot be spoken without disrupting social peace,” says Jordan, a professor at the John Danforth Center on Religion & Politics at Washington University in St. Louis.

The point where religious speech becomes hate speech is difficult to define, though, scholars and activists say.

The Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama is a nonprofit civil rights group that combats and monitors hate groups. Three years ago, it designated the Family Research Council, the group that Sprigg represents, as a hate group - a characterization the group stridently rejects.

Mark Potok,  a center spokesman, says there’s no shared definition of what constitutes hate speech.

“There is no legal meaning. It’s just a phrase,” Potok says. “Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder.”

'One of the most hated minorities?'

Intolerance may be difficult to define, but some evangelicals say they have become victims of intolerance because of their reverence for the Bible.

The conservative media culture is filled with stories about evangelicals being labeled as “extremists” for their belief that homosexuality is a sin.

Their sense of persecution goes beyond their stance on homosexuality. There are stories circulating of evangelical students being suspended for opposing homosexuality, a teacher fired for giving a Bible to a curious student, and the rise of anti-Christian bigotry.

A blogger at The American Dream asked in one essay:

“Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America?”

The reluctance of evangelicals to speak out against homosexuality is often cited as proof they are being forced into the closet.

Joe Carter, editor for The Gospel Coalition, an online evangelical magazine, wrote a blog post entitled “Debatable: Is the Christian Church a ‘Hate Group’?" He warned that young people will abandon “orthodox” Christian churches that teach that homosexuality is a sin for fear of being called haters.

“Faux civility, embarrassment, prudishness and a fear of expressing an unpopular opinion has caused many Christians to refrain from explaining how homosexual conduct destroys lives,” Carter wrote.

Some Christians fear that opposing homosexuality could cause them to lose their jobs and “haunt them forever,” Carter says.

“It’s easier to just go along,” says Carter, who is also author of “How to Argue Like Jesus.” “You don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. That’s a powerful word."

Edward Johnson, a communication professor at Campbell University in North Carolina, says we are now living in a "postmodern" era where everything is relative and there is no universally accepted truth. It's an environment in which anyone who says "this is right" and "that is wrong" is labeled intolerant, he says.

There was a time when a person could publicly say homosexuality was wrong and people could consider the statement without anger, he says. Today, people have reverted to an intellectual tribalism where they are only willing to consider the perspective of their own tribe.

“They are incapable of comprehending that someone may have a view different than theirs,” Johnson says. “For them anyone who dares to question the dogma of the tribe can only be doing so out of hatred.”

Sprigg, from the Family Research Council, says his condemnation of homosexual conduct does not spring from intolerance but a desire to protect gays from harmful conduct, he says.

Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the council, wrote in a council pamphlet that homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are straight men. He also wrote that gay men are also afflicted with a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and mental illness as well.

Sprigg says he does not believe homosexuality is a choice and that “personal testimonies" and "clinical experience” show that some people “can and do change from gay to straight.”

“Maybe we need to do a better job of showing that we are motivated by Christian love,” Sprigg says. “Love is wanting the best for someone, and acting to bring that about.”

'That's a lie'

Potok, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, has little use for the love Sprigg talks about.

He calls it hatred, and his voice rose in anger when he talked about the claims by Sprigg and other Christian groups that gay men are more predisposed to molest children and that homosexual behavior is inherently harmful.

He says the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t designate the Family Research Group a hate group because they view homosexuality as a sin or oppose same-sex marriage, Potok says. There are plenty of Christian groups who hold those beliefs but are not hate groups, he says.

A group becomes a hate group when it attacks and maligns an entire class of people for their “immutable characteristics,” Potok says. The Family Research Council spreads known falsehoods about gays and lesbians, he says, such as the contention that gay men are predisposed to abuse children.

“That’s a lie,” Potok says. “These guys are engaging in straight-up defamation of a very large group of people. There are not many things much worse than you can say in America about somebody than they are a child molester.”

Potok scoffed at Spriggs’ claim that the council and other evangelical anti-gay groups are victims of intolerance.

“That’s whining on the part of people who spend their days and nights attacking gay people and then some people criticize them and they don’t like it,” he says. “That’s pathetic. It reminds me of slave owners complaining that people are saying ugly things about them.”

What the Bible says

What about the popular evangelical claim, “We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin” – is that seen as intolerance or hate speech when it comes to homosexuality?

There are those who say you can’t hate the sin and love the sinner because being gay or lesbian is defined by one’s sexual behavior; it’s who someone is.

“Most people who identify as gay and lesbian would say that this is not an action I’m choosing to do; this is who I am,” says Timothy Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book.”

Beal, a religion professor at Case Western University in Ohio, says it should be difficult for any Christian to unequivocally declare that the Bible opposes homosexuality because the Bible doesn’t take a single position on the topic. It's an assertion that many scholars and mainline Protestant pastors would agree with.

Some people cite Old Testament scriptures as condemning homosexuality, such as  Leviticus 18:22 - “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” But other Christians counter by saying they are not bound by the Old Testament.

There are those who also cite New Testament scriptures like Romans 1:26-27 - “… Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men. …”

Beal, however, says Jesus said little about sex. And the Apostle Paul, who wrote Romans, was probably referring to male prostitution and men having sexual relations with boys, a practice in the Greco-Roman world.

“Paul does not understand genetics and sexual orientation the way we understand it now as something much more than a choice,” says Beal.

Some evangelicals say Christians can’t change their view of biblical truth just because times change. But some scholars reply:

Sure you can. Christians do it all the time.

Denying a woman’s ability to preach in church was justified by scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 - “… I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” But many churches have abandoned that teaching - and some scholars say a woman preached the first Christian sermon, when Mary Magdalene proclaimed that Jesus had risen.

Slaveholders in 19th century America justified slavery through a literal reading of the Bible, quoting Titus 2:9-10 – “Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything. …” And anti-Semitism was justified by the claims that Jews killed Jesus, such as Matthew 27: 25-26 - “Let his blood be on us and on our children.”

Litfin, from Moody Bible Institute, acknowledged that the Bible once sanctioned slavery, but he said that practice was a “cultural expression” that changed over time. Evangelicals who oppose same-sex marriage by citing the Bible are on more solid ground, he says.

“Marriage is a universal and timeless institution that God set up for maximum human flourishing. He set it up in the first book of the Bible with the story of Adam and Eve. It is consistent throughout the whole Bible. … Marriage is in a different category than those cultural things.”

Public jousts over the Bible's stance on homosexuality rarely change people’s minds. What changes is when people get to know gay and lesbian people as friends and hear their story, says Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible.”

“If you open up to that other person genuinely, you basically come to a point where you have to sacrifice them to your ideology or crack open your ideology to make a hospitable place for them,” Beal says.

One Christian pastor who is gay says the uproar over the ESPN commentator’s comments can actually be good,  because debates help settle moral disputes.

“What appears to us as antiquated and prejudicial now was once a disputed issue that required debate,” says the Rev. Richard McCarty, a minister in the United Church of Christ and a religious studies professor at Mercyhurst University in Pennsylvania.

Until the debate over homosexuality is settled - if it ever is - there may be plenty of evangelical Christians who feel as if they are now being forced to stay in the closet.

Carter, the evangelical blogger, says he foresees a day when any church that preaches against homosexuality will be marginalized. Just as many churches now accept divorce, they will accept sexual practices once considered sinful.

“It’s getting to the point,” he says, “where churches are not going to say that any sexual activity is wrong.”

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Church • Church and state • Culture wars • Protest • Sex • Sexuality • Sports

soundoff (10,982 Responses)
  1. mama k

    The poster "lol??" replied below, "I know you want the public to believe in Qweirdom".

    As another poster recent wrote: [ the word "behavior" leads one to believe that the scientific community and/or psychological community deems being gay a "state of mind' which is false. Both consider it a "way of life" or rather a naturally occurring matter of genetics. The church is welcome not to support those scientific facts – much the way Galileo was excommunicated for daring to reorder the planets with Earth not at the center. ]

    It seems that "lol??" has not kept up to date on current biological and psychological knowledge on the issue.

    =================================================

    Psychology

    The American Psychological Association states "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people", and says most people's sexual orientation is determined at an early age. Research into how sexual orientation in males may be determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises concerns about genetic profiling and prenatal testing."

    Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."

    The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

    "Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."

    Biology

    The following is from the article:

    Homosexuality ultimately a result of gene regulation, researchers find (12/11/2012 – LiveScience)

    [ The search for a "gay gene" may be off-target, new research finds. Another process called epigenetics that switches genes on and off may explain why homosexuality runs in families.

    Epigenetics are heritable changes caused by factors other than DNA. Instead of traits getting passed down through the genes, epigenetic change happens because of the way genes are regulated, or turned on and off.

    These genetic regulators may be the reason homosexuality persists in nature despite the fact that gay people are less likely to reproduce, suggests the new study published in the journal The Quarterly Review of Biology.

    "These things have evolved because they're good for the parents, but they sometimes, not [with] high frequency, but sometimes carry over" into offspring, study researcher William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, told LiveScience. In a male fetus, Rice and his colleagues write, an epigenetic change that benefited the mother may lead to "feminization" of sexual preference — homo- or bisexuality. The same may be true for epigenetic changes passed down by dad to a female fetus. (The terms feminization and masculinization of sexual preference refer to sexual orientation only — not to physical or personality traits of the offspring.)

    The findings add to past research suggesting gay men haven't died out, because female relatives of gay men tend to have more children on average than other females. The study researchers specifically found that two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

    Hormones, epigenetics and orientation

    Rice and his colleagues focused on epi-marks, which are molecular changes that act like temporary "switches" to turn genes on and off. If a gene is a blueprint, the epi-mark is the construction foreman who makes sure the product gets built. An epi-mark also determines when, where and how much a gene is expressed, according to the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis.

    These molecular switches are usually erased very early in the developmental process, but they can be passed down from generation to generation, too, Rice said.

    Some epi-marks are particularly important during fetal development, when they promote normal physical development in the sexes despite natural variations in testosterone during pregnancy. Researchers know that fetal exposure to too much testosterone can masculinize the genitals, brain or behavior of a genetically female fetus. Likewise, too little testosterone can make a genetically male fetus more feminized.

    But here's the catch: There's lots of overlap between the levels of testosterone male and female fetuses get exposed to. That means there must be another side to the story, Rice and his colleagues wrote.

    That side appears to be epigenetics, Rice said.

    "Early in development, we think these epi-marks are laid down so that girl fetuses will be relatively insensitive to testosterone and male fetuses will be relatively sensitive to testosterone," Rice said.

    Biological behavior

    Thus, if an epi-mark that kept a mother from getting exposed to high testosterone in development gets passed on to her son — the opposite sex — it could desensitize him to testosterone, contributing to his sexual preference for men. Similarly, if a male-specific epi-mark from dad gets passed to a daughter, it could "masculinize" her sexual preference, making her more interested in women.

    These findings could explain why twin studies show that homosexuality runs in families, but no "gay gene" can be found, Rice said. In identical twins, there's about a 20 percent chance that if one twin is gay, the other will be too. If genetic change were responsible for homosexuality, you'd expect a much higher match, Rice said. Epigenetics, however, can explain the heritability without the need for a specific genetic change.

    The hypothesis could be tested by examining epigenetic marks in parents of kids with gay versus straight offspring, Rice said. There are, of course, concerns that this knowledge could be used by parents who want to avoid gay offspring, Rice said, but that concern already exists around certain hormonal conditions in utero, which are known to contribute to an increased chance of offspring being lesbians.

    "That cat's already out of the bag," Rice said. He added that an understanding of the biological underpinnings of homosexuality could help emphasize that same-sex behavior is not "unnatural."

    "In fact, it's a major part of the natural world," Rice said. Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs, he pointed out. And 8 percent of male sheep show zero interest in fertile ewes, but get sexually excited by other rams. ]

    May 6, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • lol??

      "....................Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs,....................."

      Some chicks need a lot more help than others.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Sacred

      The poster lol?? is EXACTLY the type of "Christian" that spreads hate and bigotry. The poster lol?? is about as much of a Christian as Charles Manson is. The poster lol?? embodies absolute hate as an expression of absolute love.

      Need a poster child on how NOT to be a Christian? Look at the poster lol?? and Do the exact opposite. Hopefully the poster lol?? doesn't have any kids, because the poster lol?? would likely be very familiar to DCF.

      I wouldn't trust the poster lol?? to tell the truth about anything, let alone the word of our Lord. Poster lol?? has strayed far. Poster lol?? Is a shameful Christian.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • ..

      And naturally the only thing the twit got out of it is a joke. Surprised? We're not. Lol IS a joke. And a cunt.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Science

      Hey James Madison................religion has none it looks like.............with the comments on this blog.

      The Big question is ETHICS ! does religion have any ?

      The Ethics of Resurrecting Extinct Species

      Apr. 8, 2013 — At some point, scientists may be able to bring back extinct animals, and perhaps early humans, raising questions of ethics and environmental disruption.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408165955.htm

      May 6, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      sacred of course you've never read no could understand Luke 11:14-23

      "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

      Amen,

      May 6, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Science

      HS + BS = BS

      May 6, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      "sacred of course you've never read no could understand Luke 11:14-23" Nope, we've all read that stuff. We don't believe it. Lord of the Rings is a great book, too, but there are no hobbits in reality. I can read it AND understand it, and I can even write books myself, but I don't gosh-wow and get converted every time I read a good book.

      May 6, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
  2. Cody

    I have to say. It is very annoying as a Christian when you get branded as a bigot or a hater, when in reality, you don't "hate" Gays, Bi's, or Transgenders. We disagree with their lifestyle because the Bible says, AND explains why it is wrong. If Gays, Bi's, or Transgenders are offended with that, then there are many Christian's who are willing to discuss it in a calm rational manner.
    Granted, there are Christians who take it too far. They get up on their soapbox and preach hellfire and brimstone for all who don't convert. Mind you, the Bible does talk about that. And yes I agree with it, but honestly, I can't change how a person lives. "I" as in me. I believe that only the Holy Spirit can, and all I am called to do is to share the Gospel message, and the Love of God. YOU DON'T DO THAT BY BEATING PEOPLE OVER THE HEAD WITH THE BIBLE!
    Do I believe that Gays Bi's and Transgenders are living in sin by their choice of lifestyle? Yes. Do I believe that they will go to hell if they do not repent? Yes. Do I believe that we should be using the Bible to cower people into coming to Christ? NO! That's not showing Christian love. And it's not the love shown to me who am just as guilty, just as sinful as any Gay, Bi or Transgendered person. I was saved through Faith in Christian who loved me, and everyone who would receive his gift, to die for us on the Cross for our sins.

    In regards to the whole debate. Who better to speak on this topic than a former Lesbian and stalwart defender of their beliefs. Check out these links with an open mind. She has a lot to say about her conversion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_YI6INTQU

    http://rosariabutterfield.com/

    May 6, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Cody

      -Faith in Christian- faith in Christ*

      May 6, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magical Underwear

      Cody – you used the term "choice of their lifestyle" in relation to gay people.So, obviously you believe that being choosing the se-xual orientation of being gay in a conscious choice. So, then, could you please explain exactly how and when you made the CHOICE to become straight? Flipping a coin in your room as a troubled teen, perhaps? "Heads, I give head. Tails. I like tail".

      May 6, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Disagreement is one thing. Religious types want the law to reflect their opinions, which is where the protests start.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      If you tell people they are wrong because of how they were born you are a jerk.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      "I have to say. It is very annoying as a Christian when you get branded as a bigot or a hater, when in reality, you don't "hate" Gays, Bi's, or Transgenders." Followed by a bunch of hateful stuff about them going to hell. Yeah, you must be annoyed ALL the time, hater.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Cody: Conversion does not work. She may well have been scared back in to the closet by the ignorant bigots she was dealing with but it's highly unlikely that she is no longer a lesbian. You state you disagree with the lifestyle...it's not a lifestyle any more than being hetero is a lifestyle.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      And I think bigoted Christians are a sin. However, I'm not asking the government to block your civil rights. You are free to believe your twaddle free of interference as it should be. Now leave everyone else alone and maybe I'll think a little bit more of you.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Rupert

      I like how you start by saying that you’re not a bigot, and then explain in detail that you are.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Unbelievers have been lied to when trained to listen and abide in man made lies (traditions of men), which causes them to lose their soul versus Jesus' truth that will save their soul.

      Matthew 23:29-36
      Matthew 27:20-26
      T itus 1:10-16
      1 S amual 8:4-9
      A cts 9:10-23
      Revelation 2:8-11
      Revelation 3:7-13

      They also don't understand the small g in scriptures pertaining to the word gods.

      Psalms 82:6-7

      6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
      7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.  KJV

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • I dont hate christians, just their behavior

      I hate the vile, reprehensible and disgusting things most christians do. Like trying to get their archaic, oppressive and dysfunctional rules to force everyone to live by their standards. I hate the way true christians will knife their best friend in the back if they imagine their god wants them to. I hate the way they twist and distort science, logic and reality, lying and misrepresenting anything they can lay their hands on in an attempt to swindle people into believing their religion is true.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      And every single psychiatric organization on the planet will tell you that "conversion" therapy does serious damage to people.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Darrin

      "We disagree with their lifestyle because the Bible says, AND explains why it is wrong. If Gays, Bi's, or Transgenders are offended with that, then there are many Christian's who are willing to discuss it in a calm rational manner."

      That's all fine and good, but my question is, do you use your position as a citizen of the U.S. to vote down the rights of those you disagree with? If you do it based on religious beliefs then you are not only "explaining" why you think it's wrong but you are "forcing" your religious beliefs on others.

      You should vote as a freedom loving citizen of a secular nation built for all Americans of every religion and you can "explain" to anyone who will listen about your opinions on who should or shouldn't sleep together, but when you whip out that unwashed and uncircvmcised sausage of faith and try stuffing it in everyone elses face by legislating your religious views, then you have crossed the line and do not deserve the freedoms that had been given you.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • Alias

      You were never a lesbian. You are more likely a victom of abuse who had a relationship with a woman because it was easier than being with a man.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • Adrian

      I too am curious as to when straight people decided to be straight. I mean, it has to be a defining moment as it is for gay people right? Maybe straight people decide to be straight on their 11th birthday or maybe their 14th? Maybe it was when they found a nudy magazine in dads special drawer. I mean, it's totally preposterous that straight people are born straight; it's a choice, darn you!

      May 6, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • faith

      You were never a lesbian.

      i'll defend you Cody you are a lesbian for sure.

      May 6, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Cody

      @faith: Haha thanks! But I think that would be rather hard seeing as I'm male. LOL
      Honest mistake. 🙂

      May 6, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
  3. Honey Badger Don't Care!

    “Nobody is expressing hate toward ho.mo.se.xuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?”

    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Nah, that’s not hate. It’s just taken out of context.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Ah but they will just say they are only doing what their god wants, so the hate is not hate if it is from their imaginary friend.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      It is not hate if the almighty creator is behind us...said Adolf

      May 6, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care!

      Yes TP,

      And the Euthyphro dilemma rears its ugly head again.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Russ

      @ HB & Truth:
      1) the original hatred is toward God. There's no more hateful thing you can do to someone than pretend they don't exist. Indifference is the final form of hatred.

      2) the cross tells us we ALL deserve death on that basis. ALL of us. life is a gracious gift in the face of what we actually deserve. and yet beyond that – he was so loving as to take that death on himself. that's why we are called to love our enemies – because we to were once his.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • faith

      And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death their blood shall be upon them. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion their blood shall be upon them

      whew!

      lots a people should be getting stoned to death around here

      May 6, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • faith

      what do u get for su ck ing the bra ins out of a ba by?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • faith

      i think it is unfair. gays get stoned for one thing. heteros get both barrels for the slightest thing

      May 6, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • snowboarder

      @russ, there is no legitimate reason to believe any of what you posted to be true. the entire christian doctrine of gods failed human experiment is absurd.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magical Underwear

      @ Russ – A cross told you something? Hmmmm... And about that whole Jesus and the ultimate sacrifice thing. You have an all-powerful, all-knowing god, creator of the universe, who sends a tiny bit of himself to Earth in human form – Jesus – knowing in advance (omnipotent, right?) that this human will live for a few years, be killed, come alive again after 3 days, then ascend back to heaven to rejoin itself.

      That's not a sacrifice! That's Bill Gates lending me a penny for a second, knowing in advance that (a) he's getting the penny back and (b) he can make an infinite number of pennies. NO SACRIFICE.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • ..

      Faith thinks HETEROS are persecuted now! HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

      May 6, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      RussL Don't care what the cross is meant as, it's a torture device-apparently a living man was nailed to it and left to bleed out. There is one way out of this life regardless of how anyone of any belief looks at it and that is death, there is nothing after that can be shown with any evidence to exist. You believe that your imaginary friend's son came back from the dead after 3 days...could you please show us where else in human history this has ever happened and if you can't, then why do you believe your jesus was so special?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • Consider This

      A great place to look for good answers is at Whosoever.org It will give one a better perspective on things.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Tom

      @Russ

      Which god are you talking about. The fact, each individual has his own preceptions of god. There is no other persion in the universe that holds all of the exact beliefs about god in the exact same order of importance as you.; Therefore, all humans create their own god. I am sorry that your god feels a bit under appreciated. Perhaps you should make uip another one that more people can enjoy as much as you.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Badger, those scriptures are speaking about the 2nd death. The 2nd death is losing your soul after one has already physically dead.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Correction: after one physically dies.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Every person involved in rejecting (for whatever excuse they use) the truth of the Bible (Romans 1:18-25), and thus, the Truth of the Bible, God (John 14:6), will burn them forever in the lake of fire for hating Him so (Deuteronomy 32:39-41; Revelation 20:11-15)

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • ME II

      @Russ,
      "There's no more hateful thing you can do to someone than pretend they don't exist. Indifference is the final form of hatred."

      I can think of a lot more hurtful things to do, especially if that "someone" intentionally hides themselves and any evidence of themselves.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Russ, And all these years I've been offending pink unicorns! I feel terrible!

      May 6, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Russ

      @ snowboarder: as I told you the other day, read Richard Bauckham's "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses." Here's a scholarly work with ample *evidence* for you to consider.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Magic underwear:
      you're caricature fails to go far enough. if you're going to actually engage Christianity seriously, it's best to consider it on its own terms. the cross represents a fracturing of an eternal fellowship (the Trinity: 3-in-1, 1-in-3). As Soren Kierkegaard said: it's an "infinite, qualitative difference" between humanity and God. Jesus' sacrifice is not lending a penny from a rich man, it's a qualitatively different being sacrificing in a categorically greater way than we can fully fathom.

      what's the most valuable thing in existence? God. for *God* to make a genuine sacrifice... it's off the scale. and it's unlike any other religion in existence.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Truth Prevails: along with the book recommendation I gave to snowboarder above, I'd encourage you to read NT Wright's "The Resurrection of the Son of God" – a rather exhaustive scholarly work on the topic. Even if you just read a good scholarly review, it'll give you a lot of basic considerations you are missing.

      or to put it as Yale scholar Kenneth Scott Latourette did:
      "Why among all the cults and philosophies competing in the Greco-Roman World did Christianity succeed and outstrip all others? Why did it succeed despite getting more severe opposition than any other, why did it succeed though it had no influential backers in high places but consisted mainly of the poor and slaves? How did it succeed so completely that it forced the most powerful state in history to come to terms with it and then outlive the very empire that sought to uproot it? It is clear that at the very beginning of Christianity, there must have occurred a vast release of energy perhaps unequaled in our history. Without it, the future course of the Christian religion is inexplicable."

      May 6, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Tom: that's a non-sequitur.
      saying (basically) "no one has all the doctrine right" does not mean "all humans create their own God."

      Ludwig Feuerbach made your point more strongly by outright claiming "all theology is anthropology" – in other words: we all self-project our gods. But that necessarily ASSUMES there is no transcendent/Objective – a HUGE leap of faith (see so-called "strong atheism"). the Christian response (as well as many other religions) is: what if the Objective chooses to cross the divide & self-reveal? your assumptions exclude that possibility... and that's not even to begin to talk about the historic person Jesus.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Russ

      @ ME II: you didn't create yourself, yet you exist. no bit of science explains that (much less the underlying principles upon which science is based). on what basis do you claim there is *no evidence* for something transcendent?

      the Bible puts it this way: these things have been evident since creation, but since we our hearts are against God, we filter it out (Rom.1:20-25). Or "God has placed eternity in the heart of men" (Ecc.3:11), which is why we are constantly, failingly trying to fill our hearts with something less than the Infinite.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Santa: well, if pink unicorns were real, that would be quite an offense.
      and if so, they would be mere creatures.
      how much more if the One who made you is the One you are ignoring...

      May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care!

      "Why among all the cults and philosophies competing in the Greco-Roman World did Christianity succeed and outstrip all others? Why did it succeed despite getting more severe opposition than any other, why did it succeed though it had no influential backers in high places but consisted mainly of the poor and slaves?"

      Because the Roman emporer Constantine forced people to take on that religion so that he could more easily hold his empire together. Xtianity has been used throughout the ages as a way to consolidate and maintain power. YOU are the one that needs to read some history, and not these "scholarly" works as you put it.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care!

      "the Bible puts it this way...."

      When are you going to learn that the bible is a laughable joke? It is totally unreasonable to attempt to use the bible as a justification when talking to people who don’t believe in your fairy tales.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
    • fintastic

      @Russ.............. "There's no more hateful thing you can do to someone than pretend they don't exist."

      FYI Russ.............. we're not pretending.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
  4. Bill Deacon

    You're all right. I see it now.
    I'm just so used to seeing everything from the perspective of being right that I couldn't see any other point of view.
    Thank you all for helping me see how unchristian it is to descriminate.
    If you'll excuse me for a few minutes, I'm going to blow my dog and think about it.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      See.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Make sure you cup my balls. And I am planning dipping those into your mouth as well. I shaved last week.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Bill Deacon's dog

      You better swallow.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      He does.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Bill Deacon's Dog

      Bill lets me dry hump his leg when he is on his knees and Bill is on his knees a lot.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • fintastic

      "he'll stop when he's finished..."

      May 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
  5. cbsoxer

    Oh, poor Christians*. Killing and judging "for God" for millennia and now people are turning against them. If they followed the word of Jesus all the time, they wouldn't have this problem.
    *I refer only to the loud hypocritcal ones that make themselves beacons of intolerance, not the huge group of lovely people out there who just quietly live the way their conscience tells them too (which is what Jesus told them to do)

    May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • lol??

      "..............not the huge group................." Group thinkin' again, groupie??

      May 6, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
  6. Jeff

    I read on here all the time about the intolerance of Christianity and the perceived mental weakness it must take to believe in God, yet a Christian point of view is quickly targeted and mocked without mercy. Tolerant? Doesn't seem to be the case.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • faith

      we drive them out of their little minds

      don't take much

      just mention coll ap sing skulls

      May 6, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • snowboarder

      when that view condemns others based on ignorance and supersti tion, it should certainly be called to task.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • Reality

      Covering all the points of views about religion:

      Only for the newbies:

      Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

      • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

      • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

      • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

      • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

      • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

      • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

      • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

      • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sihkism.

      Added details available upon written request.

      A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.

      e.g. Taoism

      "The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.

      Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother's womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. "

      May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • lol??

      Zero tolerance always was another simpleton solution from the libs, er commies.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • faith

      "snowboarder
      when that view condemns others based on ignorance and supersti tion, it should certainly be called to task."

      toots, would you mind asking someone who can read where it says that?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Madtown

      Well, when someone suggests that their religion is the "only correct" religion, and all others are wrong and all people who don't agree with them have some sort of punish coming, and when it's a fact that not all people in the world are even aware of their religion......we should be fairly intolerant of that type of behavior.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      Well, logic and reason clearly doesn't work with Christians, mocking is pretty much the only alternative left.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • snowboarder

      @faith, i suppose i can do your reading for you this time.

      "Broussard was called a b1g0t and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns ho m0s3 xuality"

      May 6, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
    • Brother Maynard

      so you want us to be "tolerant" of your intolerance ?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
  7. derp

    Conversation between god and a christard at the pearly gates.

    God: "what is up with all the hate?"

    Christard standing in front of god: "Well, your book says we should hate people who aren't like us"

    God: "What book?"

    Christard standing in front of god: "The book....the one you wrote that tells us what to do"

    God: "I never wrote a book"

    Christard standing in front of god: "Well yes, some other guys wrote it, but is your inerrant word".

    God: "If I didn't write, how is it my inerrant word"

    Christard standing in front of god: "Well, it says right in the book that it is your inerrant word"

    God: "But I didn't write it"

    Christard standing in front of god: " But the guys who wrote it said it was your word"

    God: "It wasn't"

    Christard standing in front of god: "oh, we didn't know that"

    God: "What makes you think I would write a book that compels you to hate other people?"

    Christard standing in front of god: "Dunno"

    God: "Doesn't that sound more like something Satan would do?"

    Christard standing in front of god: "Well, now that you mention it"

    God: "Take the down escalator".

    May 6, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • Jeff

      Hate? Where?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • derp

      "God hates f a g s"

      May 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • sam stone

      jeff: hate as in denial of equal rights

      May 6, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
  8. Helene

    turnabout is fair play.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • faith

      poor little thang

      world treat u mean? ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

      May 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
  9. snowboarder

    the very definition of privilege, when christians cry discrimination when relegated to the same status as all others.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • faith

      u should try it sometime

      feels great

      May 6, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • snowboarder

      @faith, that's what the pot heads keep telling me.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      Try what, crying "discrimination?" I bet it does feel good to you. To me it would seem nasty.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
  10. Bill Deacon

    Why is same seex marriage good for us all?

    Someone said that conversion is never made by attacking your opponent. They must be made to see the beautiful, understand the good and comprehend the truth.

    In Catholic teaching, marriage between one man and one woman is viewed as the image of God and His love for humanity. The Christian family is the model for society, through which individuals are valued and learn to serve one another. The character of each parent, intrinsic in their gender, is brought forward as a compliment, one to the other, for the benefit of children and thus, the benefit of society. Traditional marriage then, is good for us all. This is a simplified version of the social construct under Christian thought by which western society has evolved.

    I’ve heard any number claims from the other side something along the lines of “We have the right to have seex with whomever we want”. Though governments may legalize and tax gaay unions, I wonder; can anyone describe the philosophy by which same seex marriage is a viable construct for the benefit of society other than “Gaay people should get to do what they want”? I'm not asking what harm it will cause. I'm asking what good it will do.

    What is the underlying tenet by which a devout Catholic could discard the pronouncement of the catechism that hom 0s 3xuality, like other seexual sins, is gravely disordered and thus not good for society? If the argument cannot be made, I’m afraid we are at an stalemate. The fact that no such argument exist is what drives the hatred for Christianity. Given intractable and irreconcilable disagreement, we are left with no recourse other than demonization of the other side which ultimately will descend into civil conflict.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      I will answer.

      What good will it do? It will make society better as a whole, because we have treated our citizens equally and not caused them to feel marginalized nor vilified. We will become a more noble and better people through granting equality to all of our citizens.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • snowboarder

      thankfully, in this secular nation the anyone's opinion of the intention of god is irrelevant.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      The good it brings is the happiness of the individuals involved.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      What good does traditional marriage do Bill?
      Apply that answer to your question.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      Strengthening the bond between any couple adds stability to society. Also many gay couples adopt children creating stable families. I also agree that the simple act of not discriminating against our fellow citizens is in itself a value.
      The life of a minority is worth at least as much as yours so why should you have one single benefit more than them? Please explain.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      Also, since we do not live in the Vatican, who cares what the Catholic church cares about?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Not allowing gay people to marry causes people pain. Its not rocket science that happy people are more likely to be good people.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Madtown

      The Christian family is the model for society
      -----
      This is interesting. If the christian family is indeed the model for society, and Christ was God's only son, why wouldn't God have wanted Jesus to be married, so there could be a clear example of how we were all supposed to behave? If this is the way it's supposed to be, why wasn't Jesus married?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • ..

      Who cares what the catholic religion says? That has ZERO to do with civil marriage, which gay people most assuredly deserve.
      Want civil conflict? Keep marginalizing people that don't agree with your God. You're doing a fine job of dividing people. Cut the crap out.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Which God?

      So, BD, what about you gay priests? No, not the pedos that molest the boys, but the one who ARE gay.They are just not open because if the catholic faith stigma, but they are gay. The parishioners know it, they know the parishioners know it, yet no gives a ratsazz as the gullible lead the even more gullible. You are the worst kind of apologist, BD. You are like Topher, you squirm and dodge, and come up with everything under the sun but the fact that your are just apologising for your faiths fallicies.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Bill,

      Lots of problems with your arguement.

      1) Catholic teaching is fine for you, not everyone thinks it is a valid view. As citizens of a free country we shouldn't be made to subscribe to Catholics or Christians or Muslims version of what is good for society.

      2) Individual freedoms and our right to be treated equally under the law of the US is not based on what does everyone the most benefit. Though I CAN argue that treating everyone equally under the law does the most benefit for our society as a whole.

      3) To address your question directly....
      Gay people can have children.
      Marriage between 2 people created a more stable environment for children.
      Therefore gay marriage benefits our society.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • Alias

      As usual Bill, you are a close minded idiot.
      "The Christian family is the model for society"
      Christians do not own marriage. Your version of the ideal is not what everyone else should be required to do. This could also the model for a family of muslims, or athiests.
      Your statement that traditional marriage is good for us all is completely unfounded. Children are better off with love and support at home, but that does not require one man and one woman to provide the support and stability they need.

      In general, if you can't see past your own biases and bigotry to see that a fair and just society where equal right for everybody is good for us all, there is no hope for you.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      " I'm not asking what harm it will cause. I'm asking what good it will do. " What "good" does any marriage do? Stable families tend to benefit society, no matter who is in them. They pay rent, buy groceries, pay taxes. Most of them are childless, so their taxes support your schools without straining them. What good does any citizen do? What good are YOU?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magical Underwear

      For those keeping score, Bill just got his AZZ handed to him on a plate by 12 very strong comments. Bill, hopefully you will look at those comments carefully, and then examine your beliefs, and maybe then you will see that the dogma you follow don't hunt no more.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • natas copus

      Did you ever consider that not everyone gives a flying fuck what the catholic teachings have to say? How is any of your business Bill?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Rupert

      Families existed long before your book of fables did, so tell me exactly how is the model for society?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Science

      To simple for Bill to understand the RCC is not the truth !..................the talking snake Bill?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      OK, getting past the "Who cares what Catholics think" responses, the answers seem to be

      A. It grants equality to a minority. I find this to be a legal equality as a gaay marriage will never be "equal" to a traditional marriage simply by virtue of the participants. Again, governments can legalize anything they want. I am asking about the contribution a society built around gaay marriage will make to human kind. Which leads to answer..

      B. The happiness of those involved. There seems to be a convolution between happiness and pleasure in our society. If happiness or it's corollary lack of pain were our goals, shouldn't we legalize any manner of other behaviors? Surely even gaay marriage proponents can think of some behavior they prefer to keep illegal that would bring some aficionado happiness.

      C. Gaay people can have children? This must be a new breakthrough in the biological sciences. As far as I know it still takes a male and a female to procreate. Of course with divorce and custody decisions, anything is possible and I am certain I read that somewhere a geneticist is working on the possibility of aseexual reproduction for humans. Is this the extension of personal freedom that secular feminism offers? If so, perhaps you can begin to understand why traditional minded people would want to hold the line

      May 6, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Use Your Reason and Compassion

      I like the approach of thinking about what good or harm a behavior or belief will do rather than using Bible texts when many people don't believe in the Bible as inspired or valid in the first place. So, to answer your valid question on what good will it do? Do you know how many teens are kicked out of their homes onto the streets by their parents when they find out the kid is gay? Do you know how many teens commit suicide rather than face the shame and rejection heaped upon them for being gay? Or how many are beat up or even killed? The good it will do is to reduce anguish and suffering. That should be important to everyone, regardless of their religion or lack of religion.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Please try to limit you response to support of gaay marriage instead of detracting from traditional marriage support. I think I made the Catholic point very well. I'm looking for a good argument in support of gaays, again something besides "It makes us happy"

      May 6, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • Alias

      Admit it Bill,
      You think gays are icky, and that is the basis of your reasoning.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Science

      Free speech helps educate the masses................POLITICIANS too !

      Do you have any Bill ?

      Where do morals come from?.....................not the nasty bible Bill.................read and find the anser !

      By Kelly Murray, CNN

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/12/where-do-morals-come-from/#comments

      May 6, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Science

      Oops................. answer !

      May 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Bill bleats:. Gaay people can have children? This must be a new breakthrough in the biological sciences.

      You are an idiot. Gays aren't sterile. They can and do have children. It isn't a requirement of marriage that anyone have children, and if gay couples decide to do so, they can use the very same methods straight couples use when the partners cannot conceive WITH EACH OTHER, dumbazz. They can choose a sperm donor, and egg donor, a surrogate.

      Grow up, Bill. Your view of the world isn't the only valid one.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      *shakes head*

      Amazing, Bill, truly amazing. You are given all kinds of fully valid and perfectly reasonable benefits that allowing marriage equality to gays would give society, and you have wormed your way around all of them.

      You're blinded by your hatred and intolerance and bigotry. You are NOT a good human being.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Thank you reason and compassion. I think those situation s you describe are deplorable and I would point out to you that the Catholic Church, in particular, is not anti gayy. As someone pointed out there are a great many gaay priests and no one thinks anything of it. I'm asking about the specific consequences to society that are contributed by traditional marriage and those that gaay marriage would provide. As yet, I haven't heard any.

      There are two issues with what you describe. The first is that even if gaay marriage is legalized, many people will still vilify gaays and those problems will not go away.

      Secondly, even if the government legalizes gaay marriage, religions, like Catholicism which reject it based on theological and sociological grounds will never accept it. Society will still be in conflict.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Dilly Dumbbell: I'm looking for a good argument in support of gaays, again something besides "It makes us happy"

      So no Christians get married solely because "it makes them happy"? Maybe they get married because they've knocked up their girlfriend by fornicating-like you did.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Science

      Or...................adoption always works............Bill !..............not bio though !

      May 6, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "There are two issues with what you describe. The first is that even if gaay marriage is legalized, many people will still vilify gaays and those problems will not go away.

      Secondly, even if the government legalizes gaay marriage, religions, like Catholicism which reject it based on theological and sociological grounds will never accept it. Society will still be in conflict."

      So what? Society is always in conflict about things. So? Why is that a big deal when we're talking about 10% or less of the population? There are some bigots who still oppose interracial marriage. Think we should forbid it because it "causes conflict"?

      When interracial marriage was first legalized, there were bigots who opposed it. Are there just as many now? Where do you get that crystal ball of yours that tells you that in 50 years there will be just as many people opposed to gay marriage as there are now? There aren't even as many opposed to it as there were 5 years ago, you dope.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • JMEF

      Wow, BD, running off at the mouth about s8xuality is like a celibate priest giving marital advice to a young couple who have probably been doing the deed for years. Please Bill understand that what is written in your dogma relates to your lot only, those that have been programed into the flock, leave the rest of the society to go through life with a different belief system or none at all. You should not have the audacity to pontificate to other than your own sheep.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Let me clarify, I am not proposing that Catholic teaching is the only way the world can be experienced. I am merely asking for a way by which an active gaay lifestyle can be reconciled philosophically to Catholic tenets, (which inform many Christian tenets at least on this point).

      So, far, I haven't gotten any answers that convince me gaay marriage is viable that do not include the dismantling of traditional marriage and it's underpinnings.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • mama k

      Bill: "religions, like Catholicism which reject it based on theological and sociological grounds will never accept it."

      How did the church ever come to terms with Galileo? How does it come to terms with any new knowledge that rubs against its tenets?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • The real Tom

      So, far, I haven't gotten any answers that convince me

      So? Again, why does anyone have to convince you? You haven't convinced me that your god exists. I am not opposing your right to worship as you wish. Why should you oppose gay marriage just because you're not convinced it will benefit anyone? If those who are gay believe they will benefit, who are you to tell them they won't? If the majority of people believe gay marriage will have no effect on traditional marriage, who are to claim it will? Where's your evidence?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Alias

      If you want to use your bible as a basis for this reasoning,
      Please tell me how society benefits from inter racial marriage?
      Eating Shellfish?
      Mixing cotton with other fabrics?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I understand that the religion I belong to only applies to me and I am not trying to paste it onto anybody. I only include the description as a back drop for the thought process. The continued string of derision of me as a Catholic or of Catholics in general doesn't advance an argument for your side. It only tells me you reject my side and I already know that.

      Tom, I'm certain that many Christian people do marry simply because it makes them happy, or at least they hope it will. I'm not talking about individual motives. I'm trying to discuss the foundational reason over which gaay marriage can be placed. You can't place it on Judeo-Christian foundations so what will you use?

      Stop ridiculing faithful people and give us your doctrine of secular, liberal, gaay feminist marriage.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Answer: There is none

      May 6, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "You can't place it on Judeo-Christian foundations"

      I most certainly can. There are many gay couples who are Christian. Just because their beliefs don't jibe with yours doesn't mean they're wrong.

      Furthermore, twit, I don't believe I mentioned Catholics at all, so can your self-righteous indignation, ya big wuss.

      You have yet to show how straight marriage benefits society in any way that gay marriage cannot. When are you going to do that? And don't bother with you idiotic argument that gays can't have children, because I 've already disabused of that fallacy.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "Answer: There is none"

      Glad you admit that there is no benefit to society that only straight marriage can provide.

      Now when are you going to realize that gay marriage isn't going to threaten traditional marriage? Do you really think that a straight couple will decide not to marry because their gay friends can?

      You must be suffering from dementia. Have you been checked?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD, lordy, lordy, you are not saying that catholic teaching is the only way. I call that BS, that is always exactly what you do in your posts, from female rights, to equal marriage, to contraception, to what laws the government can pass, to what the press/media are allowed to print about the RCC (favorable coverage good, unfavorable a media conspiracy), etc. you are so deeply deluded you cannot see the bias in your posts, quite sad.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "A. Again, governments can legalize anything they want. I am asking about the contribution a society built around gaay marriage will make to human kind. "

      The issue is not about what contribution (though I did address that). It is a question of equal treatment under the law....a concept that DOES benefit everyone.

      "B. The happiness of those involved. There seems to be a convolution between happiness and pleasure in our society. If happiness or it's corollary lack of pain were our goals, shouldn't we legalize any manner of other behaviors?"

      Behavior that does not directly harm others should be legal. If you are going to argue that gay marriage somehow damages other individuals you need to make your case. That is a common arguement but I have yet to see anyone actually show causation of damage from gay marriage

      "C. Gaay people can have children? "

      Yes Bill, gay people can have children, welcome to the 21st Century.

      "I am merely asking for a way by which an active gaay lifestyle can be reconciled philosophically to Catholic tenets, (which inform many Christian tenets at least on this point).
      So, far, I haven't gotten any answers that convince me gaay marriage is viable that do not include the dismantling of traditional marriage and it's underpinnings".

      1) Why does the gay lifestyle NEED to be reconciled philosophically with Catholic tenets? No one is forcing Catholics to get married to same gender people. No one is forcing the Catholic Church to recognize gay marriage. Heck the Catholic Church doesn't even recognize my traditional marriage and I am a confirmed Catholic.

      2) Please explain how gay marriage will dismantal traditional marriage? Be specific.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Excellent post, Cheese.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD. Stop ridiculing faithful people and give us your doctrine of secular, liberal, g@y feminist marriage. Doctrine belongs to you BD, you rely on what the hierarchy of the church tells you what to believe/think, the law dictates to people on what they can and cannot do. You are going to lose one state at a time when gay unions/marriage is made legal, sorry for you but that is happening now.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • Which God?

      Wait. B Deacon is living in SIN? He's not married and is for.nicating? With which hand? Oh, he has a girl friend who he is dragging into SIN as well. Nice guy. Guess he doesn't care about her "soul," just getting his rocks off. Hypocrite. BD, no a act of contrition will save you, as your contrition is momentary, and is blasphemy. You should confess to your priest that you are for.nicating, and will continue to do so. H3ll, just quit the catholic church as you obviously don't hold to its tenants.

      May 6, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Alias

      Bill,
      Your religion is not a valid excuse to descrimininate against others. Get it?
      The benefit to society is equal rights for everyone.

      May 6, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
  11. Uhypocryte

    Christians you are not being persecuted the people are just defending themselves from your persecution, you just dont like being talked back to.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Reason Rules

      It's like the bully on the playground who claims he is being "victimized" when the weakling actually fights back.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
  12. Neal Dakota

    Hm.
    http://goingtodamasc.us/why-the-marriage-debate-has-already-destroyed-us/

    May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • mama k

      The linked article may have a good point with ".. the spread of technology and social media we are now able to relay information and arguments faster than ever before causing the polarization of people to increase at never-before-seen rates."

      But it attempts to call for sensibility on the issue of gay marriage between the Christian right and what it calls the "Post-Modern Left". For the latter author seems mainly to call for a more intense reading of the Bible and for the "right" it has some recommendations, but it doesn't care to address one of the most troubling problems preventing any kind of decent understanding between various types of theists: lack of a basic education about homosexuality.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • lol??

      I know you want the public to believe in Qweirdom, mama K, but demonstrations are NOT required, 'specially repeatable, verifiable demonstrations and budgetary constraints might konflict yer desires. You've heard of the big black hole in the budget??

      May 6, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
  13. skytag

    I have been asked many times what I'll do if after I die I find myself standing before God being asked why I didn't believe he existed. My standard answer is that I'll ask him if it was so important to believe he existed why was he so careful to ensure there was no reason to believe he existed?

    The fact is that the only reason to believe in God is someone's word he exists. Not only is that not good enough for me, but even if it were, how would I know whose word to take? The Amish's, the Mormons', the Catholics', the Muslims', the Hindi's, the Jews', or perhaps that of someone who belongs to one of the hundreds of other religions?

    May 6, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      I plan to tell him "Fvk you for the mosquitoes and yellowjackets".

      That's about it.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Rupert

      I would ask him why he made me an atheist.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      I will tell him thanks for making mosquitos like my wife more.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • lol??

      "....My standard answer......"

      Get plenty of practice saying your lines. You don't want stage fright on opening night.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      I would ask who he thinks he is.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • faith

      u want a medal?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      The better question is why would I believe in such magical beings? A little evidence would be a good start.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • derp

      I'm gonna kick him in the nuts.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Out of the way Peck.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Is that you Zeus?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Are you fvcking with us?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      I wonder if I can ask more questions. He might appreciate some intelligent conversation for a change.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • biobraine

      I doubt an all powerful all knowing creator of the universe would care the slightest bit one way or another what we thought of it or if we even believed it existed. No other life form on this planet believes in any gods. God probably wouldn't torture them for eternity either.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      If I really thought there was a god who inflicted all this pain and misery on humanity, I'd be more interested in tracking it down and killing it before it invented any more diseases than I would be in "worshiping" it out of fear.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • fintastic

      Replace the word "god" with "monster" and you're on the right track

      May 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
  14. joldham

    People who bash Christianity and those who believe in Jesus Christ are the ones who can have their fun now and get strung along by the devil. Jesus said it the last hour even those who hate will call my name but it will be too late. remember, ETERNITY is a LONG TIME....Have your fun now, payment is at hand..

    May 6, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      intelligent people arent scared of your nonsense.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Oh damn i better repent...

      May 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Eternity is a long time. NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO

      May 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Wait ETERNITY IS FOREVER. Im shaking in my boots.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      We're not too worried...your imaginary friend does not scare us.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • skytag

      No God, no devil, no afterlife. Eternity is indeed a long time, but you won't exist after you die so it won't matter to you how long it is.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      These people need professional help.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      Do you realize how silly you sound when you invoke the devil?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • sam

      Superstitious fear-mongering is always the best way to get people on your side. LOL

      May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • George Ferretti

      Eternity is a long time, funniest thing I've read this year.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Jesus was a false god, dead false god. Teal'C

      May 6, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Madtown

      "But, I've never heard of Jesus Christ, I have no option to follow him. What will happen to me, what will my eternity look like?"

      – signed,
      your human brother who God placed in an area of the world with no access to christianity

      May 6, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • faith

      ReligionIsBS
      intelligent people arent scared of your nonsense.

      rbs cries, shaking in her boots

      May 6, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • ..

      "Said how now side red nose show hair sofa ball toy rug skateboard shine lace piano basket." -any one of faith's posts. Makes about as much sense.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      You actually believe in the devil. You are funny. Do you believe the purple Teletubby has an agenda?

      May 6, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
  15. The End Is Near

    In Santa I please God because I dont want to go to hell. Hell is very real. I hope you see the light friend. It's not too late.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Threats of eternal punishment betrays a weak arguement.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      What

      May 6, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Hell is preached in many religions. how do you know you're pleasing the right god. What if you're praising a fake god and the real god is just getting madder and madder? have fun guessing which one is the real one. Ill save a seat next to the furnace for you.....coward.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • skytag

      Believing in something doesn't make it real.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Oh crap its real?? Hell is real????

      May 6, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Here does this make you feel better. I AM SCARED AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      No, it isn't. I hope that you see the light soon so you don't have to live in fear.

      By the way, if you are pleasing god because you're afraid of hell, those are selfish motives and guess what? Oh, that's right, you'll be going there.

      But never fear, my friend, because it isn't real. 🙂

      May 6, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      If it helps you can picture me running around in circles flailing my arms around over my head. AAAAHHHHHH

      May 6, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • sam

      So you believe out of fear? That's a terrible way to live.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      lolxtians

      May 6, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • faith

      not believing doesn't make him not real

      skytag
      Believing in something doesn't make it real.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Jesus: Yes hell is real...it's located in Michigan (http://www.gotohellmi.com/)

      May 6, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Bingo! And not beleiving in a purple flying elephant that orbits the moon doesnt make it not real either.

      You werent actually trying to use that as a point, were you? LOL

      May 6, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • skytag

      @faith: "not believing doesn't make him not real"

      Obviously, it's just consistent with all the evidence. Not believing in vampires, leprechauns and Santa Claus doesn't make them not real either, but I'm pretty sure you don't believe in them for the same reason I don't believe in God.

      Your comment is just more evidence that religion makes people stupid. Your logic is so flawed only someone who is desperate would use it.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      No hell is in Midland, Texas. I have seen it with my own eyes.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • faith

      "ReligionIsBS
      Hell is preached in many religions. how do you know you're pleasing the right god."

      i took a shot. what the hey?

      May 6, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      Yep, you still have time to become a Muslim and save yourself. Remember, words words words and a chapter reference, amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • The "end" has been near for the last 2000 years

      Jesus said it would happen with in one life time after his death. It still hasn't happened. I'm not holding my breath

      May 6, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • fintastic

      "santa"???

      May 6, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
  16. KZula

    Shouldn't this alarmist, cry-baby article that gives a voice to bigots be on FoxNews and not CNN?

    May 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
  17. I AM A MAGICAL UNICORN

    This is humorous. The minority? 76% of the people in this country identify themselves as "Christian." So, tell us more about this whole minority thing again. We're all ears. Made of cheese. Magical unicorn cheese.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • Truth

      But the majority has become a minority. Not by numbers but by political correctness

      May 6, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Lies

      The crow flies at dawn. East

      May 6, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Truth?
      Explain that.

      76% is a minority because 5 out of 3 americans don't understand fractions.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      "But the majority has become a minority. Not by numbers but by political correctness" Yeah, right. I'd lose my job if I were openly atheist. You are a liar.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • I AM A MAGICAL UNICORN

      Since when? Being PC is merely a matter of etiquette. It's not a standard of holding one group of people to speaking a certain way. It's a standard for everyone. They only feel like they're the minority because they're the biggest group of offenders, and finally, people are sick of hearing it.

      May 6, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
  18. sirhuxley

    The old "Christians are persecuted" nonsense.

    This is one of the most indoctrinated ideas that Christians impress on their children, that Christianity is "of the people" and that they are "persecuted"

    This is the very biggest lie that was ever told.

    Christianity exists to carry out the agenda of the Corporate Elite.

    Christian Churches pay no taxes! Fox News broadcasts the memes of Evangelical American Exceptionalism 24×7 !!

    Then we are to believe that Christians are "Persecuted Minority" ???

    That just because we aren't living under some Christian Sharia Law that they are Persecuted?

    Well, then, if this is what Christian "leaders" are now saying then, WE, the NONES, the ANTI-THEISTS, are winning.

    Because, clearly this is just what Christians love to hear! That they are victims, that they are Persecuted, that they are weak.

    They suck it up because THEY ARE victims, they are victims of Christianity.

    May 6, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • faith

      gee thanks. u had to go and spoil it for me and my corporate buddies, didnt cha?

      sirhuxley
      The old "Christians are persecuted" nonsense.

      This is one of the most indoctrinated ideas that Christians impress on their children, that Christianity is "of the people" and that they are "persecuted"

      This is the very biggest lie that was ever told.

      Christianity exists to carry out the agenda of the Corporate Elite.

      Christian Churches pay no taxes! Fox News broadcasts the memes of Evangelical American Exceptionalism 24×7 !!

      Then we are to believe that Christians are "Persecuted Minority" ???

      That just because we aren't living under some Christian Sharia Law that they are Persecuted?

      Well, then, if this is what Christian "leaders" are now saying then, WE, the NONES, the ANTI-THEISTS, are winning.

      Because, clearly this is just what Christians love to hear! That they are victims, that they are Persecuted, that they are weak.

      They suck it up because THEY ARE victims, they are victims of Christianity.

      May 6, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
  19. Justice At Its Best

    If some Christians feel they are a hated minority it can only be due to the hate they spew forth by maligning true Christian teachings which do not talk about hating others but to Love them as yourself. Love yourself first and then you can love others! But now they must surely know what it is like to be a hated minority as gays and lesbians have felt for so long a time! True Justice At Its Best!

    May 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
  20. Neb

    This was best said by God.

    " I didn't write the bible. You humans just claim I did to sell more copies. Using bible quotes to fight ignorance is kind of like punching someone with their own hand." – GOD

    May 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.