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When Christians become a 'hated minority'
Evangelical Christians say they are the new victims of intolerance - they're persecuted for condemning homosexuality.
May 5th, 2013
06:00 AM ET

When Christians become a 'hated minority'

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens.

During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him.

“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group.

We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot.

As proof, Sprigg points to the backlash that ESPN commentator Chris Broussard sparked recently. Broussard was called a bigot and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns homosexuality.

“In the current culture, it takes more courage for someone like Chris Broussard to speak out than for someone like Jason Collins to come out,” says Sprigg, a former pastor. “The media will hail someone who comes out of the closet as gay, but someone who simply expresses their personal religious views about homosexual conduct is attacked.”

When is disagreement hate?

Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Illinois, says Christians should be able to publicly say that God designed sex to take place within a marriage between a man and a woman.

“That isn’t so outrageous,” Litfin says. “Nobody is expressing hate toward homosexuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?”

But quoting the Bible doesn't inoculate anyone from becoming a bigot or hater, some scholars say. There's a point at which a Christian's opposition to homosexuality can become bigotry, and even hate speech, they say.

Crossing such a line has happened many times in history.

A literal reading of the Bible was used to justify all sorts of hatred: slavery, the subjugation of women and anti-Semitism, scholars and pastors say.

“Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief,” says Mark D. Jordan, author of “Recruiting Young Love: How Christians Talk about Homosexuality.”

“Some religious beliefs, sincerely held, are detestable. They cannot be spoken without disrupting social peace,” says Jordan, a professor at the John Danforth Center on Religion & Politics at Washington University in St. Louis.

The point where religious speech becomes hate speech is difficult to define, though, scholars and activists say.

The Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama is a nonprofit civil rights group that combats and monitors hate groups. Three years ago, it designated the Family Research Council, the group that Sprigg represents, as a hate group - a characterization the group stridently rejects.

Mark Potok,  a center spokesman, says there’s no shared definition of what constitutes hate speech.

“There is no legal meaning. It’s just a phrase,” Potok says. “Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder.”

'One of the most hated minorities?'

Intolerance may be difficult to define, but some evangelicals say they have become victims of intolerance because of their reverence for the Bible.

The conservative media culture is filled with stories about evangelicals being labeled as “extremists” for their belief that homosexuality is a sin.

Their sense of persecution goes beyond their stance on homosexuality. There are stories circulating of evangelical students being suspended for opposing homosexuality, a teacher fired for giving a Bible to a curious student, and the rise of anti-Christian bigotry.

A blogger at The American Dream asked in one essay:

“Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America?”

The reluctance of evangelicals to speak out against homosexuality is often cited as proof they are being forced into the closet.

Joe Carter, editor for The Gospel Coalition, an online evangelical magazine, wrote a blog post entitled “Debatable: Is the Christian Church a ‘Hate Group’?" He warned that young people will abandon “orthodox” Christian churches that teach that homosexuality is a sin for fear of being called haters.

“Faux civility, embarrassment, prudishness and a fear of expressing an unpopular opinion has caused many Christians to refrain from explaining how homosexual conduct destroys lives,” Carter wrote.

Some Christians fear that opposing homosexuality could cause them to lose their jobs and “haunt them forever,” Carter says.

“It’s easier to just go along,” says Carter, who is also author of “How to Argue Like Jesus.” “You don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. That’s a powerful word."

Edward Johnson, a communication professor at Campbell University in North Carolina, says we are now living in a "postmodern" era where everything is relative and there is no universally accepted truth. It's an environment in which anyone who says "this is right" and "that is wrong" is labeled intolerant, he says.

There was a time when a person could publicly say homosexuality was wrong and people could consider the statement without anger, he says. Today, people have reverted to an intellectual tribalism where they are only willing to consider the perspective of their own tribe.

“They are incapable of comprehending that someone may have a view different than theirs,” Johnson says. “For them anyone who dares to question the dogma of the tribe can only be doing so out of hatred.”

Sprigg, from the Family Research Council, says his condemnation of homosexual conduct does not spring from intolerance but a desire to protect gays from harmful conduct, he says.

Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the council, wrote in a council pamphlet that homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are straight men. He also wrote that gay men are also afflicted with a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and mental illness as well.

Sprigg says he does not believe homosexuality is a choice and that “personal testimonies" and "clinical experience” show that some people “can and do change from gay to straight.”

“Maybe we need to do a better job of showing that we are motivated by Christian love,” Sprigg says. “Love is wanting the best for someone, and acting to bring that about.”

'That's a lie'

Potok, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, has little use for the love Sprigg talks about.

He calls it hatred, and his voice rose in anger when he talked about the claims by Sprigg and other Christian groups that gay men are more predisposed to molest children and that homosexual behavior is inherently harmful.

He says the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t designate the Family Research Group a hate group because they view homosexuality as a sin or oppose same-sex marriage, Potok says. There are plenty of Christian groups who hold those beliefs but are not hate groups, he says.

A group becomes a hate group when it attacks and maligns an entire class of people for their “immutable characteristics,” Potok says. The Family Research Council spreads known falsehoods about gays and lesbians, he says, such as the contention that gay men are predisposed to abuse children.

“That’s a lie,” Potok says. “These guys are engaging in straight-up defamation of a very large group of people. There are not many things much worse than you can say in America about somebody than they are a child molester.”

Potok scoffed at Spriggs’ claim that the council and other evangelical anti-gay groups are victims of intolerance.

“That’s whining on the part of people who spend their days and nights attacking gay people and then some people criticize them and they don’t like it,” he says. “That’s pathetic. It reminds me of slave owners complaining that people are saying ugly things about them.”

What the Bible says

What about the popular evangelical claim, “We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin” – is that seen as intolerance or hate speech when it comes to homosexuality?

There are those who say you can’t hate the sin and love the sinner because being gay or lesbian is defined by one’s sexual behavior; it’s who someone is.

“Most people who identify as gay and lesbian would say that this is not an action I’m choosing to do; this is who I am,” says Timothy Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book.”

Beal, a religion professor at Case Western University in Ohio, says it should be difficult for any Christian to unequivocally declare that the Bible opposes homosexuality because the Bible doesn’t take a single position on the topic. It's an assertion that many scholars and mainline Protestant pastors would agree with.

Some people cite Old Testament scriptures as condemning homosexuality, such as  Leviticus 18:22 - “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” But other Christians counter by saying they are not bound by the Old Testament.

There are those who also cite New Testament scriptures like Romans 1:26-27 - “… Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men. …”

Beal, however, says Jesus said little about sex. And the Apostle Paul, who wrote Romans, was probably referring to male prostitution and men having sexual relations with boys, a practice in the Greco-Roman world.

“Paul does not understand genetics and sexual orientation the way we understand it now as something much more than a choice,” says Beal.

Some evangelicals say Christians can’t change their view of biblical truth just because times change. But some scholars reply:

Sure you can. Christians do it all the time.

Denying a woman’s ability to preach in church was justified by scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 - “… I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” But many churches have abandoned that teaching - and some scholars say a woman preached the first Christian sermon, when Mary Magdalene proclaimed that Jesus had risen.

Slaveholders in 19th century America justified slavery through a literal reading of the Bible, quoting Titus 2:9-10 – “Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything. …” And anti-Semitism was justified by the claims that Jews killed Jesus, such as Matthew 27: 25-26 - “Let his blood be on us and on our children.”

Litfin, from Moody Bible Institute, acknowledged that the Bible once sanctioned slavery, but he said that practice was a “cultural expression” that changed over time. Evangelicals who oppose same-sex marriage by citing the Bible are on more solid ground, he says.

“Marriage is a universal and timeless institution that God set up for maximum human flourishing. He set it up in the first book of the Bible with the story of Adam and Eve. It is consistent throughout the whole Bible. … Marriage is in a different category than those cultural things.”

Public jousts over the Bible's stance on homosexuality rarely change people’s minds. What changes is when people get to know gay and lesbian people as friends and hear their story, says Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible.”

“If you open up to that other person genuinely, you basically come to a point where you have to sacrifice them to your ideology or crack open your ideology to make a hospitable place for them,” Beal says.

One Christian pastor who is gay says the uproar over the ESPN commentator’s comments can actually be good,  because debates help settle moral disputes.

“What appears to us as antiquated and prejudicial now was once a disputed issue that required debate,” says the Rev. Richard McCarty, a minister in the United Church of Christ and a religious studies professor at Mercyhurst University in Pennsylvania.

Until the debate over homosexuality is settled - if it ever is - there may be plenty of evangelical Christians who feel as if they are now being forced to stay in the closet.

Carter, the evangelical blogger, says he foresees a day when any church that preaches against homosexuality will be marginalized. Just as many churches now accept divorce, they will accept sexual practices once considered sinful.

“It’s getting to the point,” he says, “where churches are not going to say that any sexual activity is wrong.”

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Church • Church and state • Culture wars • Protest • Sex • Sexuality • Sports

soundoff (10,982 Responses)
  1. Dyslexic doG

    "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." – George H. W. Bush.

    oh you poor persecuted, hated minority ...

    May 6, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
    • Eric g

      It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks. You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get *NOTHING*! You lose! Good day sir!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
    • Eric g

      "George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd." – Sam Harris

      May 6, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • Shakingmyhead

      Sure all Christians are just like that man as all Islamists are like Osama Bin Laden, and all Venezuelans are like Chavez, and all Atheists are Satan. Argument holds not merit. Are you not able to paint the world in nothing but broad strokes? I also know how to pronounce nuclear correctly and I didnt vote for the man either. So how does your logic stand the smell test?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • Colin

      "and all Atheists are Satan". you realize we atheists think the idea of Satan is every bit as childish and silly as the idea of a god, right?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      George HW Bush was not only a terrible president, but the father of the Worst President Ever. Why would I care what that old crook had to say?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
    • Bible Clown©

      "Argument holds not merit." Brain holds not sanity? Cave man come to interwebs, make speech? Ook ook.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
  2. I AM A MAGICAL UNICORN

    Something really stinks about this article.

    May 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Science

      Like fish.................chomp chomp chomp !..........tcreationists

      Prehistoric shark captured on film

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mneDhOtVEQw

      May 6, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • Science

      Oops ..................creationists..the cults.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
  3. lionlylamb

    God is a reasoned God. God gives Life to all things atomically manifested by Godly powers that be; to become living entourages of celestial mobility wherever the gardening feasibility is an orientation of lively celestial creations by, for and from Godly manifestations within the chasms of atomic ordainments. We are just God's buildings wherein said buildings, God's families take up dominion and dare live within their creations manifestations, God's structural buildings of the atomized variables inside cellular structures within all things living upon the celestial shorelines of cosmologic wonders.

    May 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • Eric g

      ...........and, you had the salad, right?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
    • I AM A MAGICAL UNICORN

      I know who you are and what you did to your brother.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      it's like lionlylamb just took a handful of words and threw them against a wall ...

      May 6, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • Athy

      An attempted translation...

      God is a Godly God. He manifests his Godly powers that be; to become living discourages of celestial immobility wherever he damn well pleases. His minimal unfeasibility is an orientation of lively celestial creations for ungodly manifestations within the godly chasms of atomic firmaments. We are just God's godly structural buildings wherein said buildings we are. Godly families take up dominion and dare live within their godly buildings without water. God's structural buildings of the godly atomized variables inside cellular structures inside atomic quarks with their godly shorelines. We are within all godly things living upon the celestial shorelines of ungodly cosmologic wonders.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      What is, every word in a thesaurus, Alex!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • EnlightenedOne

      What you just said, was one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent comment were you close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may thor have mercy on your soul.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Athy,

      Although your Word is rudimentary a justification of wittiness, you talk of the ungodly and yet, there is nothing of godlessness to be fathoming in the ungodly within Life's framed perceptions of the God-filled variations of celestially acclaimed living organisms of cellular culpabilities all made out of atomic particulates, the very fabrics filling all voids and chasms of spatial relationships known of and yet to be viewed. What lays upon the insides is becoming made upon the outsides.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Brother Maynard

      An attempt at translation II
      And on the third day god created god and god saw the goodness of god. God said unto god " Go and be god for god is the light and the light is god. He whomever god said is good unto the goodness of god. " Then god became jealous of god and smote god onto god and spilled the blood of god onto the ground of god. "He whomever shall god smote; smotes god" And god carried the god winds from the north to push the god boats and god sailes to the far reaches of god world. God returned to god and god loved god -
      So sayeth god

      May 6, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • Peregrine

      LL- that's a whole lot of crazy for one paragraph.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      EnlightenedOne,

      1. The Atomized Cosmos
      Said Cosmos is made before all the other Cosmologies were made in manifestations of Genealogies relevant to cosmological orders of sameness in scalar receptiveness.

      2. The Celestial Cosmos.
      Made up of many atomized cloisters into and toward becoming celestial manifestations of solarized nebulas and galactic conditionings and is the compositionally structured thesis of the Celestial Chasms' Cosmologic Orders.

      3. The Biologically Cellular Cosmos
      These Cosmologies of Cellular Biologic Orders are found being firstly established as singularized cellular manifestations within the workings of all branches of Cellular Biologic Orders.

      Slowly pull the cart out of the muddiness and give rest to the horses.

      May 6, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • Athy

      Thanks for clearing that up for us, Lionly. We certainly do appreciate it.

      May 6, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
  4. Chad

    @Concerned Citizen " Religion has always been a tool to control the weak minded. "

    @Jim Jones You're gonna help yourself, or you'll get no help! There's only one hope of glory; that's within you! Nobody's gonna come out of the sky! There's no heaven up there! We'll have to make heaven down here

    @Mao Tse Tung "Religion is poison"

    @Joseph Stalin religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society.

    @Karl Marx "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.

    @Vladimir Lenin ""Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."

    Pol Pot: banned religion

    @Kim Il-Sung "My God is none other than the people. Only the popular masses are omniscient and omnipotent ad almighty on earth. Therefore my lifetime motto is: "The people are my God"

    tell me.. are you starting to see a pattern? Quite a list of people there. Those that would supposedly liberate man from the God of Israel have been histories most brutal killers./b>

    May 6, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Unbelievers have been lied to when trained to listen and abide in man made lies (traditions of men), which causes them to lose their soul versus Jesus' truth that will save their soul ...

      Matthew 23:29-36
      Matthew 27:20-26
      T itus 1:10-16
      1 S amual 8:4-9
      A cts 9:10-23
      Revelation 2:8-11
      Revelation 3:7-13

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      @Heavensent;

      Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Page 211. Line 14.

      Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Page 103. Line 47.

      Expelliarmus!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      kill anyone that doesn't believe in the christian god:

      Deuteronomy 13:6-10
      "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."

      May 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • Passion of the jesus

      Don't you get it? Quoting scripture means nothing.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • Passion of the jesus

      Dyslexic doG – LOL too funny

      May 6, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
    • Science

      WOW..................a match made in the fairy land..................HS and Chad ?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Richard Harris

      'atheism' is now officially known as 'hateism'

      May 6, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
    • Passion of the jesus

      Burn the heretics! Oh wait, you did.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Chad
      Except for Karl Marx (who was never the leader of a nation), every one of the people you listed built their own cults of personality.
      They tolerated no free-thinkers, enforced dogmatism and demanded blind obedience and obsequious submission from their followers.
      Each of these leaders wielded their people’s predilection for faith like a weapon.
      Any proposition that relies on faith can and will be twisted by unscrupulous individuals for their own gain. Its just far too easy to manipulate those who are willing to suspend critical thinking and accept something without evidence.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, Three of them were not referring to christianity so your "god of israel" was not even a consideration. You have establshed no evidence for said god apart from the clearly self-serving bible. Then we get to your sophistry where you post a c&p of collected nonsense saying that the bible is historically accurate when daily you get responses showing it is not.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • Pole dancing for Jesus

      Richard Harris is officially known as Dick Head.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • Richard Harris

      'atheists' are now officially known as 'hateists' and April 1st is now officially known as 'hatiest day'!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Chad

      @Doc Vestibule

      – histories most famous cult of personality leaders were atheist
      – histories most despotic, ruthless, controlling leaders were atheist

      those are just facts..

      May 6, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • sam

      Chad, you've been shot down with this BS argument so many times, it's not worth it to do more than point and laugh at you.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
  5. Eric g

    Was Jesus right or left handed?

    May 6, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      he didn't exist.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • Steve Wilkinson

      Never mind the FACT that 99.9% of secular or Christian scholarship disagree with you, huh? Heh.
      Do you have some evidence to support that claim?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
    • Eric g

      Shhhhhh...... You gonna scare the fundies away. What fun would that be?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • Passion of the jesus

      I don't know but I heard he had trouble holding M&Ms

      May 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Eric g

      @Steve: Careful Sir. You will be called out for references when you post statistics.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • Steve Wilkinson

      @ Eric g –

      True, though one usually isn't required to cite common knowledge. Heck, even Bart Ehrman wrote a book on the topic. I only know of one person who can loosely be considered a scholar, who believes Jesus didn't exist.

      May 6, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
  6. lamb of dog

    Mr Bill Deacon.
    Does society benefit from you treating others like crap?

    May 6, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      But the Bible says I can.
      It. Says. I. Can.
      That is exactly the same arguement used in this article. Thanks for getting us back on topic,

      May 6, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Bill. Separation of church and state. Plus the bible is not a great reference – it has been proven wrong on the really important stuff and unproveable on most others but the events described in those parts have not been seen since and are totally unreliable.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
  7. Bill Deacon

    I still havent heard one argument as to why anyone should be able to have the same rights I do. I am better than all, so I deserve more rights than the rest. How do I know this? It was written down by goat herders 2000 years ago.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Good translation.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      thanks fake BD

      May 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      As usual, those that steal a Christian's handle to write their babble is never cleaver, nor funny in what they post.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      never cleaver?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Wally and the Beaves long lost brother...thats why you never see him!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
  8. Bill Deacon

    I'll ask again :
    Why would society benefit from gay marriage?
    I do not accept these answers:
    I'm stupid
    The bible is stupid
    All members of society should have equal rights
    It is wrong to discriminate based on a religion that everyone does not believe in

    May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Plenty of business for wedding planners, florists, caterers, photographers, etc ... oh and divorce attorneys too!

      More money in the money-go-round. That's good for society right?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Why does society have to benefit?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      But seriously, you don't accept

      "All members of society should have equal rights"?

      I'm astonished. The 14th amendment does not apply to everyone. 'Separate but equal' is OK with you?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      As an atheist who likes to convert people, thank you for all of your hard work!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
    • sam

      It does zero harm. Ok? It doesn't need to benefit society, or you.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Just to be clear, my previous comment is missing a question mark. It should say:

      The 14th amendment doesn't apply to everyone? (Of course it does.)

      May 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Does society benefit from your hetero marriage? We can't turn this to taxes due to the fact that same gender couples also pay them; we can't turn this to children-once again, this isn't an issue. We can turn this to two people who love each other the same way you and your wife do, fighting to be recognized in what we should all hope is a better world than what we're seeing. How does gay/lesbian marriage directly affect your life? If you want a better world, you need to start by being happy for others and allowing them to be happy.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I'll accept the name stealing and derogatory comments to mean "We don't have a good case for it. We just want it and you have to give it to us or we'll call you names"

      I think my response to the question of "How would gaay marriage hurt traditional marriage?" Is this:

      There is a firm and philosophically mature rational for traditional marriage. As this debate has shown, there is none for gaay marriage. Therefore gaay marriage is a lower order construct than traditional marriage. To mandate equivalance of the lower with the higher by legalistic fiat does not elevate the lower, in so much as it degrades the higher.

      Shame too, I was really hoping someone had thought through the idea and wasn't just clamoring for their entiitlement

      May 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      i gave lots of legitimate reasons below. that businesses would greatly benefit is the most tangible. any business that had to do with weddings would make more money, thereby benefiting all the employees at those businesses. you have to admit that's true...? and don't use a silly comparison of g.ay marriage and drugs. one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. so you wanted a legitimate reason - i gave you several. do you now support g.ay marriage?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
    • CommonSensed

      OK BD...let's ask you this:

      Why does society benefit from monogamous marriage? Plenty of societies that have gotten along with polygamous marriage.

      What about marriages that a) fail b) don't produce offspring c) are forced – are those still beneficial for you?

      Not sure what your question is really driving at?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

      Proverbs 14:12

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I'm just posing a question i know you can't answer to my satisfaction.
      It's called a straw man agruement.
      I'm using it to make myself feel superior.
      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Bill: Traditional marriage doesn't so much exist any more.
      You still have not explained how your hetero marriage benefits society or how a same gender couples relationship directly affects you?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      I should have known there was some handle-stealing going on.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      "There is a firm and philosophically mature rational for traditional marriage",

      You forgot to add:

      "However, I will share none of these rational's, becuase I am just a christian biggot who lived by the words of 2000 year old goat herders. Well, just the words I like. Like im not going to wear mixed fabrics! F you god! I like Polly-Cotton blends"

      May 6, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Yes the handle stealing is only slightly more frustrating than the derision when it comes to a decent discussion. Common sense raises a good point. Why not polygamy? or why not ho mo s3xual marriage between celibate relatives? Why not any and all type of legal marriage? Does society have a vested interest in defining and fostering certain relationships in it's own interest? If not then anything should be permitted. If so, then gaay marriage should have to postulate why it is advantageous to society and it has not, at least not on this thread and in others I have searched. The whole argument is not based on why it is beneficial but rather that Christians and others are bigoted for opposing it and that is a subjective argument which doesn't carry any weight.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Yes, BS again with the name calling. You must understand that all you are doing is ratifying my point don't you? I posted a brief description of Christian support of marriage in teh very first post I made. iw ould gladly do it again here except for two points.

      A. You can easily read the catechism yourself to learn on your own
      B. You want me to post here for you so you can argue against it as if that will win your argument. But that is a logical fallacy. Gaay marriage simply has no foundational argument to support itself on.

      I must say, I am amazed, I had no idea your position was so indefensible. I really thought I was inviting a contest of ideas, not a contest of an idea and a non-idea.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • sam

      I never do take you seriously, Bill, but watching you use precious spelling like gaay and seex is making it easier than usual.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
  9. lamb of dog

    Interesting fairy tale.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
  10. yhura

    The first commands of the bible relate that the Creator is ONE and so must be HIS people. No contradictions in HIM. Therefore man falling for a bribe unto rebellion against Divine Order became an accomplice unto the author of hate. Whenever I read the bible, I only see a Creator in HIS love offering man the hope of forgiveness, calling mankind back to HIS PEACE Mankind turned away from Creator fell under the diverse spells of selfishly ambitious men whose goals have been to exploit territories and subsequently the minds of "citizens"; that constant warfare upholding unscrupulous lawless designs to this very day exist. Men have called it "The Fall". The bible calls it, "The Curse"... separation from the pure perfect initial will of One. The Savior comes that mankind may collectively discern beyond all the mass confusions of folk who for irrationally despising the initial truth, only pretend to want Peace. In that the Creator is One, it only stands to reason that HE will not be pleased till HE sees a world reVerently restored to a point of Divine ReFerence. Throughout ages, the concept of "Savior" does not imply nor create nor sustain contentious confusion; but comes to abolish it. That most have not discerned this, has left many indiscriminately without faith, without hope, easily victimized by pretender's suppositions in this wanton age. If humanity stopped blaming the Creator for the ills that men created, a world could suddenly become wise to realize what is necessary that a world could begin to love, cooperate and trust for genuine healing. I pray that upon this earth, HIS will be done. Which shall you say is the foundation of all being? Peace and Love Confusion and Chaos? Peace people!

    May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Eric g

      The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it. It began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven to the Dwarf lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine rings were gifted to the race of men, who, above all else, desire power. But they were, all of them, deceived, for another Ring was made. In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret a master Ring, to control all others. And into this Ring he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      thats funny eric I was thinking the same thing.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • sam

      Ha! Thanks eric.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      Thanks Eric. Classic!

      May 6, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Eric, haven't you read ...

      For I [am] the LORD, I change not; ...

      Malachi 3:6

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • Arthur Bryant

      Do you think writing your nonsensical drivel in pseudo-biblical language lends it credibility? FYI......it doesn't. It just reinforces a possible diagnosis of schizophrenia with religious ideation. Or maybe just plain stupidity.

      May 8, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
  11. Vic

    Dyslexic doG,

    That's the point doG! God always wanted to show man the curse of the Law and that it is not viable; therefore, we need Him to save us by believing in Him, hence FAITH!!! That is the New Covenant/Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!

    Jesus Christ spoke of that the Law would be binding until it is accomplished. That's why he accomplished it for us for no human can accomplish it!

    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf, died on the Holy Cross for the remission of our sins (became sin and curse for us) descended to hell and defeated death (keys of which were held by Satan,) rose from the dead on the third day bringing us eternal life and reconciliation with God the Father, then ascended to Heaven promising us the Holy Spirit and preparing the place for us.

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Fulfillment of the Law

    Matthew 5:17,18
    “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

    John 17:4
    "4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do."

    Hebrews 9:25,26
    "25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

    Becoming Sin

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    "21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

    Becoming Curse

    Galatians 3:13
    "13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—"

    Dying on the Cross & Deafeating Death

    John 19:30
    "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

    Romans 6:9
    "9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

    2 Timothy 1:10
    "10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

    Hebrews 2:14,15
    "14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives."

    Revelation 1:18
    "18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

    Rising on the Third Day

    Matthew 12:40
    "40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    1 Corinthians 15:4
    "4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

    Reconciliation

    Romans 5:10,11
    "10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

    2 Corinthians 5:18
    "18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,"

    Ascension into Heaven & Preparing the Place for us

    Luke 24:50,51
    "50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven."

    John 14:3
    "3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

    Acts 1:9
    "9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight."

    His work was Done!

    When someone finishes his/her work they sit down. After the Lord Jesus Christ finished His work, He sat down at the right hand of God the Father!

    John 17:4
    "4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do."

    John 19:30
    "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

    Mark 16:19
    "So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

    Justification & Salvation

    Romans 3:28
    "28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

    Romans 8:1,2
    "8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

    Romans 10:4
    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Galatians 2:16
    "16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

    Ephesians 1:7
    "7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"

    Ephesians 2:8,9
    "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    Acts 13:39
    "39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses."

    [All above Scripture is from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)]
    http://www.biblegateway.com

    May 6, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
    • meifumado

      Please stay away from children, You should not be allowed to own firearms.
      Please seek help.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • Eric g

      Sorry Vic. You have made a claim and have not satisfied your burden of proof. Please provide any verifiable evidence that your god exists. Without this verifiable evidence, all other claims are irrelevant, including any made in your bible.

      Your bible is not proof. Please Google "circular logic" before you try to use it.

      Please provide your evidence for verification.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      just ... WOW!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • Madtown

      The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf
      -----
      Everyone's behalf? Even all of the humans in the world, even today, who have never heard of Christ and don't know what christianity is? What good is all that scripture you posted to someone who doesn't know the bible exists?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Wowzers, what the hell is that? Please please please turn off your computer, pull your head out of your ass, get dressed, jump on the tractor and make your way to the local vet...once there ask him to perform a frontal lobotomy....you'll be all better after. 🙂

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Bob

      @vic-Well reasoned! well done!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Please stop quoting scripture, it's like copying and pasting a Mr Man book and using it's contents to prove your point, it means nothing. At least copy and paste from a DECENT work of fiction, we might get a good read out of it then, instead of just skipping the bs to the comment page.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      the bible supports slavery, the most evil inst.itution man has ever inflicted on man. slavery means degradation, it means a life of bondage, it means abuses of every kind, it means r.ape, it means murder, it means a short miserable life. and yet the bible supports slavery, offering rules on how much to pay for slaves, rules for selling your own daughter into slavery, rules for beating your slaves, rules for where to buy your slaves... how did god miss "thou shalt not own other human beings - there is no greater evil"? how did he miss that one... ? unless... the bible was not divinely inspired and just a book written by men that thought the sun revolved around the earth. wow! see how that suddenly makes all the fairy tale dribble in the bible make sense? no book from a supposedly loving and comp.assionate god would support slavery. the bible is a book of myth and superst.ition, not to be taken seriously.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Science

      Bull sh-it VIC

      Free speech helps to educate the masses..............POLITICIANS TOO !

      Hey James Madison................religion has none it looks like.............with the comments on this blog.

      The Big question is ETHICS ! does religion have any ?

      The Ethics of Resurrecting Extinct Species

      Apr. 8, 2013 — At some point, scientists may be able to bring back extinct animals, and perhaps early humans, raising questions of ethics and environmental disruption.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408165955.htm

      The fact...............the earth is to old ...........time to EVOLVE !..................Creationists...........ID believers and christians !

      Ancient Earth Crust Stored in Deep Mantle

      Apr. 24, 2013 — Scientists have long believed that lava erupted from certain oceanic volcanoes contains materials from the early Earth's crust. But decisive evidence for this phenomenon has proven elusive. New research from a team including Carnegie's Erik Hauri demonstrates that oceanic volcanic rocks contain samples of recycled crust dating back to the Archean era 2.5 billion years ago. Their work is published in Nature.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424132705.htm

      Maybe they should not have created the wedge !!!

      The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Insti-tute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Insti-tute manifesto known as the Wedge Docu-ment,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to defeat materialism, naturalism, evolution, and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic
      convictions.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

      Dover Trial Transcripts............................................. FACTS.

      Below are the complete transcripts from the Dover Trial. Thanks to our friends at the National Center for Science Education for helping us fill in the missing transcripts.

      http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm

      Education works for children

      Where do morals come from?.............the answer is not the bible read and find out !

      By Kelly Murray, CNN

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/12/where-do-morals-come-from/#comments

      Gravity is not up for debate ! ............E = mc2..........(U–Pb).................two math formulas..........that do not lie or sin !!!...

      Peace.......

      May 6, 2013 at 8:39 am | Report abuse |

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Jesus the Christ

      Hey Vic,
      I can read a comic book series and find many reasons I'd like a particular superhero as a god. I could write down everything they say, all of their ethics, how they punish the bad guys, etc. I could model my life after this particular superhero and call myself a "good guy." This doesn't make the comic book series that I'm reading true. It doesn't make me good just because I follow the ideas set up by the superhero in the comics that I read. It just means that I chose to read and believe and put into practice the ideas that are in a simple comic book series.
      Your Bible is a collection of books that were written before and long after your Jesus supposedly lived on the earth. He did not personally write any of them. 4 of the books alone in the New Testament are the same story told from a different perspective, AFTER this Jesus fellow was long gone, and the Old Testament is the book of the Jewish people. Two different gods really; the old and the new testament's.
      Why do you try to force people to believe in your comic book series when there are plenty around that have better stories, better bad guys and better hero's? Maybe you ought to realize that the Christian bible is a very boring comic book that just doesn't interest thinking people.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Bob: What I said to Vic, I would advise you to follow.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      @Vic.

      Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Page 211. Line 14.

      Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Page 103. Line 47.

      Expelliarmus!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • Eric

      "Jesus sacrificed himself and died for the forgiveness of our sins".

      So say the Christians, thinking that will be compelling to those who do not believe. But please, just stop it, it's a totally pointless argument.

      I suppose that argument might possibly have some meaning to someone who already accepts that blood sacrifice, animal or otherwise, is meaningful in some way, but no non-believer is going make any sense of it.

      Also, Jesus came back, remember? He's god. He knows everything. He knew he was coming back. Where's the sacrifice? And Christians make it out like god gave up his son, forgetting the part that THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON. Nothing was given up.

      Just venting.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
    • Gabriel

      Eric – Yeah, Christians love John 3:16 about god giving up his one and only son, but that's never made sense since they're both part of the same being.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
    • Lawrence

      And the son came back pretty quickly, so what was it that god gave, exactly?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • yhura

      It is evident that as it is written, it is going to be a BIG SHOCK to mankind to realize that since pagan kings counted themselves gods, they would have counted any word relating authority greater than the contradictivediversitudes of man and their polytheist concepts of diety, to be blasphemy. What "law" did polytheist western revere? Consider that to this very day, they who make the laws of a diversely contentious society and they who enforce them are slang called, "Lawmen" or "The Law". When men make rules to break the rules of the Creator, it is false law, FLAW, lawLESSness, not lawFUL at all! A world filled with MISrepresentative mockeries against the will of ONE, is not wisdom nor absolution, but mass confusion. Sadly, an indiscriminate world has refused to acknowledge that its lack of discretion as to how this world shall at last be healed, is ignorance, not wisdom at all. Because pastors and rulers have not taught all that really is in the bible, hasty conclusions abound. 1Corinthians 3:18-4:5 in context of Isaiah 44:20-46:13 is a good reference to consider. There is no "new" covenant that allows man's vacillations. There is only the plan of the Creator to revive in the minds of HIS people what among the many contentious nations has been lost. Again, Jeremiah chapters 30-31 is another example. When the Savior Himself shall teach HIS laws upon the minds and hearts, then shall man be redeemed beyond the confusions of unscruplously undisciplined men; to according to sure knowledge become HIS people. The Gospel declares the supreme sovereignty of the Most High that reproves all the rulers. That is why to this very day, the truth of the Gospel remains a mystery to man. That is why the Savior reappears, to teach what men would not. No pluralistically contradictive system is lawful and true to the will of ONE. Woe to them whose lust for confusion leaves them in darkness.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Vic, great post.

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
  12. lamb of dog

    I serve my family. And my wife is glad that I have so much lust in my heart for her.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
    • meifumado

      If you wife is hot, others will lust after her, show us a picture!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      She is gorgeous and always will be. Sorry I dont think she would like that. And so what if other men look at her. I have no fear.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

      Galatians 5:16

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
  13. Doc Vestibule

    Perhaps the most difficult part of the Gay Marriage debate for the fundamentalists is that in every country where it has been legalized, people rapidly cease to give even the tiniest of s/hits.
    The "slippery slope" arguments have been proven null and void. No straight marriages have been nullified due to gay marriage, nobody is arguing for the legalization of pedophilia/bestiality/marrying inanimate objects etc.
    No church has been forced to perform a ceremony with which they disagree.
    After the initial celebrations by the rainbow triangle brigade, life goes back to normal for everyone.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
    • Eric g

      It's not about gay marriage. It's about the crumbling of their unsupported belief system. It's like the end of a game of Jenga. Eventually, it all falls down.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Religion is the biggest scam ever.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Galatians 5:16

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
  14. Steven

    This article is about how Christians have become a hated minority. So far, 6100 posts have done nothing but prove that point. So much for freedom of religion (or speech for that matter).

    May 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      All religions are hated, Steve. The fact that its called a Minority, is laughable.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Eric g

      Wow. So, for believers to deny others rights because of their beliefs should be allowed, but for others to question believers about their beliefs should not be allowed?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
    • sam

      I know, right? I look forward to the day a christian can openly worship...oh wait. I mean, wear their religious symbols all over...wait. I mean, when are we going to get a christian presid –

      Dammit, if I try hard enough I'm sure I can find SOME way that christians are being persecuted. Give me more time.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
    • ME II

      @sam,
      ... when their allowed to discriminate freely.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      no one is putting you in jail for being prejudice or for expressing that view. you have that right - so stop crying.

      YOU are the one trying to suppress freedom of speech. you have the right to be h.omophobic and express your hatred and loathing for g.ays - and WE have the right to call you a bigot. see how that works? both of us can say what we want. nothing illegal on either side. but those of us that don't wallow in ignorance are also free to have nothing to do with you bigots. we have the right to let others know that you preach hatred toward our g.ay brothers and sisters. so cry more, you oppressed "minority". hahahaha.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Steven

      Are you kidding? The number of people who openly identify themselves as Christian in this country has declined drastically to the point where they are the minority. If you take a poll of 100 people in your office building, I guarantee you that less than 50 would openly identify as Christian. That's the sad truth. The other sad truth is that they are no longer vocal. People like you, who claim Jesus was a lich, are the vocal ones who influence what society thinks. The Christians that do so are viewed as conservative Bible-beaters who do nothing but slam their religion down other peoples' throats.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      Christians are NOT a hated minority.

      Christians are all delusional.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • ME II

      they're not their

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      John 15:18

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      It's about time atheists came out and started asserting themselves more, the days of christian torture and execution for heresy are over, its time to be heard.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Your reading skills need work.
      The article asks why people are so intollerant of the christian views concerning gay rights.
      He admits to being a bigot, but thinks it is okay because his bible tells him to be.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • sam

      @MEII – That is a damn shame, I mean, having that right taken away? It's got to be soul crushing. Discrimination is a god-given right and to deprive them of it is just inhumane.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Its a two way street now Steven..... and these are just words...truth for the most part. – freedom of speech.
      not so fun to kick the dog when he can bite you back is it?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      America has always been a terrible place for white, straight, Christian, land-owning males.
      They weren't even allowed to vote federally until 1776!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • Steven

      And just how have Christians "tortured" atheists?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • sam

      Steven, would you then say that basically christians have felt the need to closet themselves to avoid getting negative attention?

      That kind of irony is so good, it doesn't even need frosting.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Steven, open up a history book and read.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • Steven

      @Jesus was a lich: What page should I open up to? Just because certain people of a group do something does not indite the whole group. Do you want to hate all white people because only some of them owned slaves?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      Bill, here's the best reason of all why g.ays should be allowed to marry:

      marriage is a legal device, not a religious one.

      get married in a church with church approval but without a gov't issued marriage license = not legally married

      get married in a courthouse without church approval but with a gov't issued marriage license = legally married

      you can add ritual and ceremony to a marriage, but it's not necessary. marriage is a legally binding contract between two people - that's it.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      Steve wrote:
      "Are you kidding? The number of people who openly identify themselves as Christian in this country has declined drastically to the point where they are the minority. If you take a poll of 100 people in your office building, I guarantee you that less than 50 would openly identify as Christian. That's the sad truth. "

      obviously you need to take a basic statistics class. if you take 100 people and 49 are christians, 10 jewish, 10 buddhists, 10 animists, 10 muslim and 11 atheist - that does NOT make christians a "minority". the group that has the most members is NOT the minority. your argument shows only your misunderstanding of the terms you are using to make your "point".

      May 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • Jesus the Christ

      Get off the cross Steven, someone else needs the wood.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Steven
      Would you like to know what Christians have been doing to atheists for about 1500 years?
      You outlawed them from the universities, or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or other writing of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanized them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their crotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disemboweled them, hung them, burnt them alive.....

      Have you ever heard of The Judas Cradle? A Christian name for a Christian torture device used on heretics, blashphemers, heathens and atheists.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Not the people, Steven. The religion. And not just Christianity, all organized religion. People are infected by it.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Huzzah!

      At last we have reached the beginning of the end of evangelical Protestant hegemony in this country.

      Who'd have thunk it would be gays who drew the lightning.

      ... and white evangelical protestants are a minority – like adherents of all beliefs (and unbelief), at around 26.3%. If they are hated, it is only because of what they say and the way the behave to the rest of us.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • ME II

      @Steven,
      "The number of people who openly identify themselves as Christian in this country has declined drastically to the point where they are the minority."

      You must be joking. 78% of Americans identify as Christian. (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports)

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      And what was it, 46% believe the Earth is 6000 years old?? I mean LOL

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
  15. Bill Deacon

    Still looking for a positive argument for gaay marriage. Something besides "It's our right because we want it". 6100 comments and nothing but "The Bible is stupid"

    May 6, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      lamb of dog is most honest when he says "Lust is awesome" At least he knows who he serves.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • ME II

      If you limit the rights of one you limits the rights of all.

      OR

      "whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me"

      May 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
    • Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist

      What are the negatives?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD So why did you run away from the posts on p. 84, get to tough for you? Have to start a new thread, why? This is typical of most of your ilk, Topher and Chad are more adept than you are to be fair.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Tyler

      You give too much credit to the regulars here.Were you looking for a rational response to your question? Rationale is not a virtue of the regulars here. You see plenty of word vomit and/or impassioned responses laced with vitriol.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      @Bill
      what are your arguments (aside from God wants us to) for straight marriage? please list why straight people should be able to marry.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      how about the simple American right: "all men are created equal".

      May 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • sam

      Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

      May 6, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • Jesus was a lich

      Not just the right to marry another man but to also hold the same rights as a married couple of opposite gender.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      @Tyler. Most of the regulars here have lives and intellects that are out of your league. Mind your manners.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Ted, a negative argument is on like "We should have it because you are stupid" While it may be that I am stupid, that does nothing to advance your argument.

      ME comes close when he says "rights for one increase rights for all" I'm tempted to counter that a fish doesn't have the right to be a bird.

      As for "doing for the least of these..." That is taken out of context besides, we are trying to construct a debate without Biblical references aren't we? I mean otherwise, I think you ultimately lose decidedly. Do you really want to quote Scripture to support your position?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • mama k

      Bill – Blessed are the Cheesemakers earlier replied with:

      (Bill) "A. Again, governments can legalize anything they want. I am asking about the contribution a society built around gaay marriage will make to human kind. "

      (Cheese) The issue is not about what contribution (though I did address that). It is a question of equal treatment under the law....a concept that DOES benefit everyone.

      (Bill) "B. The happiness of those involved. There seems to be a convolution between happiness and pleasure in our society. If happiness or it's corollary lack of pain were our goals, shouldn't we legalize any manner of other behaviors?"

      (Cheese) Behavior that does not directly harm others should be legal. If you are going to argue that gay marriage somehow damages other individuals you need to make your case. That is a common arguement but I have yet to see anyone actually show causation of damage from gay marriage

      (Bill) "C. Gaay people can have children? "

      (Cheese) Yes Bill, gay people can have children, welcome to the 21st Century.

      (Bill) "I am merely asking for a way by which an active gaay lifestyle can be reconciled philosophically to Catholic tenets, (which inform many Christian tenets at least on this point).
      So, far, I haven't gotten any answers that convince me gaay marriage is viable that do not include the dismantling of traditional marriage and it's underpinnings".

      (Cheese) [ 1) Why does the gay lifestyle NEED to be reconciled philosophically with Catholic tenets? No one is forcing Catholics to get married to same gender people. No one is forcing the Catholic Church to recognize gay marriage. Heck the Catholic Church doesn't even recognize my traditional marriage and I am a confirmed Catholic.

      2) Please explain how gay marriage will dismantal traditional marriage? Be specific. ]

      Still no response to this, Bill???

      May 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD, no actually the bible is not stupid, as a group of fictional stories it is rather quite good with a lot of boring bits included. It is the people that believe it to be the "truth" that are quite stupid.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      JM didn't run away. Do you ever leave a thread? Never? I lost track of it so I reposted the question. Have to say I still haven't seen a good precept on which to position the argument. Do any same seex marriage supporters have an interest in toning down the rhetoric and advancing the "beauty, goodness and truth" of their position?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • mama k

      Bill: "religions, like Catholicism which reject it based on theological and sociological grounds will never accept it."

      How did the church ever come to terms with Galileo? How does it come to terms with any new knowledge that rubs against its tenets?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      @Bill
      g.ays should be allowed to marry for the same reasons straight people should - because they are in love and want to celebrate their union as a couple, because they want the same rights afforded straight couples, because it would be fantastic for our economy as all businesses related to weddings would see an increase in business (including churches as venue rentals), because g.ays are normal human beings that should receive the same rights as straight people, because it's the right thing to do ethically... the list goes on.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • sam

      The only thing I can now see in Bill's posts is 'gaay seex'. LOL

      May 6, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Psalms 73

      Amen.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      "The bible is stupid" sounds a pretty convincing argument to me. Factually correct at least. There was another thread where you couldn't enumerate why "traditional" marriage was superior. Thoughts?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      OK mama and cheesy. My response is actually the same for both your salient points:

      "Gays can have children" Of course they cannot. They can only take possession of children. Custody and procreation are different things. Because gaays cannot cooperate with the divine in the creation of life and therefore in the furthering of creation itself, it is inappropriate to use the term "have" when what is meant is either conceive or acquire. Of course one gaay may have a child in union with an opposite seex partner but then we move to the divorce debate which is beyond the scope of this discussion.

      Secondly, I have already conceded that governments have the authority to legalize any and all behavior they wish too. I am asking for the philosophical grounds on which gaays can state that their union is a positive and contributory device for society. It's all well and good that you want to sleep with whoever you want to sleep with but why is that a positive mechanism for the rest of the world?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      @Heavensent. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Page 211. Line 14.

      Expelliarmus!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Booty your argument are some of the best I've seen you make but they still miss the mark. "It's good for business" doesn't hold water. Legalized drug use is good for business. Should the Supreme Court legalize heroin?

      Celebration of their love and union. Again, I'm all for that but why does that require marriage? I suspect you are talking about tax benefits under U.S. revenue codes. I have no problem with that either. I wish the government was completely out of the marriage business.

      What cannot be demonstrated is why gaay marriage is good for anybody other than the participants and those who want to emotionally support them.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD. The same could be said for celibacy, could it not? Why not make your priests eunuchs and remove all temptations?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Quantifiable

      Bill D
      You will know the effects this(gay marriage) has on society like you know the impact divorces have on society,at that point the impact on future generations will be irreversible.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Bill
      " I am asking for the philosophical grounds on which gays can state that their union is a positive and contributory device for society."
      One of the arguments normally used against is "they can't be parents" – true, they can't both be the biological parents. Does that mean that opposite secouples who will not have children should not marry? Or those that adopt? Or those that will not have children together? I don't see the church making such a fuss in those cases.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Santa, if you missed my first post, I gave a synopsis on Catholic though about marriage. Catholic thinkers have expounded on why one man, one woman marriage is good for the wedded, their children and society as a whole. We reject other forms of seexual expression as disordered. I'm looking for the equivalent argument for gaay marriage. Why is it good? What does it yield?

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Bill,

      Sacramental marriage in the constructs of the church is one thing and perfectly reasonably for adherents of Catholicism.

      It has nothing to do with civil marriage, except that as a convenience, civil marriage paperwork is conducted at the same time as the sacrament.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Santa, your reverting to arguing against situational conditions in some traditional marriages instead of advancing your own cause. The pope would tell you that even hetero couples who apparently cannot conceive still fit the pattern of those who can, or something close to that. Their "relation" still contains the intrinsic opportunity to procreate even if other conditions render it improbabe.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      GOP, I agree. I'm not making a case for law. I'm asking a question of philosophy and sociology. No one seems to be willing or able to answer it and the focus is on winning the "right" within our present legal system without any justification from the philosophical angle.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Quantifiable. SO TRUE. We will have to wait a generation or more to find out that the Church was right, once again

      May 6, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
    • Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist

      Bill Deacon

      Ted, a negative argument is on like "We should have it because you are stupid" While it may be that I am stupid, that does nothing to advance your argument.
      .
      Who said I am trying to advance my argument? You said you are looking for a positive argument. Am I understanding that you know of no positive argument and only know negative?????? If so, what are your negative views? Please clarify

      May 6, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
    • ME II

      @Bill Deacon,
      "I'm tempted to counter that a fish doesn't have the right to be a bird."

      But a fish should have the right to be a fish and likewise for a human. If we do not treat all equally then we treat none equally and it may be you who is next treated unequal.

      I did not see your argument for pro-hetero-marriage, but I can't think what wouldn't apply for other forms of marriage. Even an obvious gambit of reproduction can be supported via adoption, surrogacy, in vitro, etc.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      @Bill Deacon
      Booty your argument are some of the best I've seen you make but they still miss the mark. "It's good for business" doesn't hold water. Legalized drug use is good for business. Should the Supreme Court legalize heroin?
      *** bad argument. you are comparing something that has been proven to cause detrimental damage (heroin use) to something that has never been shown by a legitimate scientific agency to show any damage whatsoever. in fact, the APA and EVERY other psychological association around the world has said being g.ay is normal. so it's your argument that misses the mark. prove that being g.ay is "bad" for someone. drug use has zero to do with g.ay marriage - that's called a false comparison, a logical fallacy. you need to show why g.ay marriage would be bad for business as opposed to straight marriage being good for business. please, show your evidence.

      Celebration of their love and union. Again, I'm all for that but why does that require marriage? I suspect you are talking about tax benefits under U.S. revenue codes. I have no problem with that either. I wish the government was completely out of the marriage business.
      *** well, we found something we agree on. MARRIAGE should be a private celebration of a couple's union, in whatever manner they wish, religious or not. CIVIL UNION should be a legal binding, for straight or g.ay couples in order to receive the legal benefits afforded to longterm couples. one should have nothing to do with the other, for g.ays or straights.

      What cannot be demonstrated is why gaay marriage is good for anybody other than the participants and those who want to emotionally support them.
      *** all reasons (aside from silly religious views) that straight people should get married can be directly applied to why g.ay people should get married. list why straights should be allowed to marry - same reasons g.ays should.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist

      Bill Deacon

      GOP, I agree. I'm not making a case for law. I'm asking a question of philosophy and sociology
      ...................
      Isnt that just mind masterb_tion when dealing with issues of rights and laws. Shall we discuss the question of philosophy and sociology regqarding the price of tea?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • mama k

      Bill, perhaps gay marriage introduces more "order" for that segment of the population. But you really didn't answer my question – as knowledge changes, how does the church come to terms with it? Isn't that a big part of the problem on this issue – that we know much more now about why people are gay and that it is a continuous naturally-occurring segment of the human population? That this was not understood when tenets were developed?

      May 6, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD, p84, You stated Catholic teaching is not the only way. I call BS that is exactly what you do in your posts, from female rights, equal marriage, to contraception, to what laws the government can pass, to what the media are allowed to report on about the RCC (favorable coverage good, unfavorable coverage a media conspiracy), etc. you are so deeply deluded you cannot see the bias in your posts.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist

      Bill Deacon

      Quantifiable. SO TRUE. We will have to wait a generation or more to find out that the Church was right, once again
      .....
      and the relevance of the church in these matters??????????

      May 6, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
  16. Bootyfunk

    i have bad news for anyone that's had his nuts crushed or his wiener severed. you are not welcome in the house of the lord:

    Deuteronomy 23:1
    "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

    guess d.ickless men trying to go to church was a major problem in those days.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      It actually was Booty...due to generally poor hygene, peoples penis' would get infected and in some cases, rot off.

      This is what in part led to the practice of circ u mcision, cutting down on infections.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • meifumado

      Those poor misunderstood unichs.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      eunichs were castrated...they rarely removed the penis.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      that's an urban legend. around the world most men are not circ.umcised. there is not a world epidemic of men's p.enises rotting off. that's just not true.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
  17. Dyslexic doG

    These are quotes from the Bible. The book every Christian must Obey. The book that is the word of God:

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. – Isaiah 13

    Or this:

    Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. – Hosea 13

    Or this:

    Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. – Numbers 31

    So Christians, you just keep telling yourselves this isn't just a book written by bronze age barbarians... your loving God wrote this book.

    What a joke.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • Reality

      Things change:

      New Torah For Modern Minds

      “Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob•a•bly
      Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).

      The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.

      The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."

      May 6, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      lol.

      christians say, "the bible is the PERFECT word of God!"
      modern science has proven it not to be in numerous ways.
      christians say: "well, ummm, sure there are a lots of errors and sure a lot of it is admittedly fairy tales - but the bible is to be taken seriously!"

      LOL!

      May 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      dog, take your complaints to your bosses. Those scriptures are written to the Jews, who were under God's law.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
    • SCOTTY

      HEAVENSENT I'M GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR POSTING PRIVILEGES

      May 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
    • Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist

      HeavenSent

      dog, take your complaints to your bosses. Those scriptures are written to the Jews, who were under God's law.
      .
      .
      Clearly the post went overher head. lol

      May 6, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LOL scotty (cough Tommy Tom), such as printing your messages that my posts are in review. Review of what? Any post in opposition of yours???? That ego of yours sure is fragile.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ted Jones the crusader not for khrist, clearly you don't know how to put one foot in front of the other without your marching orders. This too will go zoom, over your head.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
  18. Bootyfunk

    i have bad news for orphans - you are not allowed to go to church. b.astards are not welcome in the house of the lord:

    Deuteronomy 23:2
    " A b.astard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

    sorry, children without fathers - no place for you in christianity.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bootyjunk, you always misquote and leave the lesson learned out of scriptures because you've never learned the lessons.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      HS: So explain to us what it means...you seem to know the correct interpretation, enlighten us with your vast knowledge...this could be cheaply entertaining.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I tried to post the truth about those scriptures already, but, that post was blocked, as usual. Keep it simple stupid is the mantra on this site.

      May 6, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
  19. Bible Clown©

    It amazes me that so many Christians allow their violent urges to confront and touch gay men to lead them into seriously unChristian behavior. Stop doing that; everyone can see what you are thinking.

    May 6, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Your handle was a good choice. Clown is the correct name for you.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
  20. Dyslexic doG

    Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. – 1 Corinthians 14

    Know your place Christian women. Every word of the Bible must be obeyed right?

    What a joke!

    May 6, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • Reality

      And not forgetting that other "religion":

      o Islam gives women almost no rights and treats them like fodder for the male species as so bluntly noted by Aya-an Hi-rsi Ali in her autobiography, In-fidel.

      "Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circu-mcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hi-rsi Ali escaped – and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

      ref: Washington Post book review.

      some excerpts:

      "Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly be-aten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their scre-ams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

      "The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had cas-tes. The Untou-chable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were unt-ouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were tou-chable: we to-uched them see? but also hor-rifying to think of yourself as un-touchable, des-picable to the human race."

      "Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were ki-lled by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exa-ggerating."

      "The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Som-alia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feu-dal mind-set based on tr-ibal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypro-cricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

      More on the treatment of females in Islam:
      Islam’s widespread practice of amputating the cli-to-ris and sometimes part or even all of the vul-va from the ge-n-ita-lia of Muslim women, affirmed in a had-ith by Mohammed himself, most likely also traces back to the founder’s deliberate abuse of se-x to lure pagan males into his cu-lt. The more the male s-ex drive is purposefully aro-used, the more the female s-ex urge may have to be proportionately suppressed, lest org-iastic he-ll begin to spread.

      Consider then what frequently happens when even a modestly clothed young Western woman walks alone in broad daylight down a street in, for example, a non-Westernized area of a city in Pakistan. Muslim men around her can see her face, hair and neck—maybe even her ankles. Some of them perceive that much exposure as intent on her part to a-rouse them. The fact that she is not accompanied by a male relative confirms their susp-icions. Knowing that she, a Western woman, has not been subjected to that cruel amputation which Islam forces upon millions of Muslim women, some males may even imagine that she must feel s-exual desire for them.

      They tend also to perceive themselves as not responsible to exercise decent social restraint. Rather she is responsible not to tempt them! Whatever lewd thing Muslim men around her say, do or feel as a result is regarded as her fault alone. . . .
      During a major upheaval in Indonesia in the late 1990s, s-ex-crazed Muslim men gang-ra-ped dozens of Chinese women in shops, homes and even in the streets, shouting in Arabic, “Allahu Akbar!” (God is great!)*
      *http://www.colorq.org/humanrights/Indonesia/Jakarta.htm

      May 6, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • Mark

      So how about state laws that don't make much sense? How about in New Jersey where it is against the law to “frown” at a police officer? Or Iowa where One-armed piano players must perform for free? Get off your high horse you idiot.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Mark
      Challenge the laws...get them changed.
      the bible is supposed to be the unerring word of god, so get your women in line.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
    • Mark

      And how many times has that worked for you Richard? You have about as much chance of changing law as I do of changing the Bible.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Eve was deceived by Satan and therefore, Eve deceived Adam.

      May 6, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.