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When Christians become a 'hated minority'
Evangelical Christians say they are the new victims of intolerance - they're persecuted for condemning homosexuality.
May 5th, 2013
06:00 AM ET

When Christians become a 'hated minority'

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens.

During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him.

“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group.

We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot.

As proof, Sprigg points to the backlash that ESPN commentator Chris Broussard sparked recently. Broussard was called a bigot and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns homosexuality.

“In the current culture, it takes more courage for someone like Chris Broussard to speak out than for someone like Jason Collins to come out,” says Sprigg, a former pastor. “The media will hail someone who comes out of the closet as gay, but someone who simply expresses their personal religious views about homosexual conduct is attacked.”

When is disagreement hate?

Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Illinois, says Christians should be able to publicly say that God designed sex to take place within a marriage between a man and a woman.

“That isn’t so outrageous,” Litfin says. “Nobody is expressing hate toward homosexuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?”

But quoting the Bible doesn't inoculate anyone from becoming a bigot or hater, some scholars say. There's a point at which a Christian's opposition to homosexuality can become bigotry, and even hate speech, they say.

Crossing such a line has happened many times in history.

A literal reading of the Bible was used to justify all sorts of hatred: slavery, the subjugation of women and anti-Semitism, scholars and pastors say.

“Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief,” says Mark D. Jordan, author of “Recruiting Young Love: How Christians Talk about Homosexuality.”

“Some religious beliefs, sincerely held, are detestable. They cannot be spoken without disrupting social peace,” says Jordan, a professor at the John Danforth Center on Religion & Politics at Washington University in St. Louis.

The point where religious speech becomes hate speech is difficult to define, though, scholars and activists say.

The Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama is a nonprofit civil rights group that combats and monitors hate groups. Three years ago, it designated the Family Research Council, the group that Sprigg represents, as a hate group - a characterization the group stridently rejects.

Mark Potok,  a center spokesman, says there’s no shared definition of what constitutes hate speech.

“There is no legal meaning. It’s just a phrase,” Potok says. “Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder.”

'One of the most hated minorities?'

Intolerance may be difficult to define, but some evangelicals say they have become victims of intolerance because of their reverence for the Bible.

The conservative media culture is filled with stories about evangelicals being labeled as “extremists” for their belief that homosexuality is a sin.

Their sense of persecution goes beyond their stance on homosexuality. There are stories circulating of evangelical students being suspended for opposing homosexuality, a teacher fired for giving a Bible to a curious student, and the rise of anti-Christian bigotry.

A blogger at The American Dream asked in one essay:

“Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America?”

The reluctance of evangelicals to speak out against homosexuality is often cited as proof they are being forced into the closet.

Joe Carter, editor for The Gospel Coalition, an online evangelical magazine, wrote a blog post entitled “Debatable: Is the Christian Church a ‘Hate Group’?" He warned that young people will abandon “orthodox” Christian churches that teach that homosexuality is a sin for fear of being called haters.

“Faux civility, embarrassment, prudishness and a fear of expressing an unpopular opinion has caused many Christians to refrain from explaining how homosexual conduct destroys lives,” Carter wrote.

Some Christians fear that opposing homosexuality could cause them to lose their jobs and “haunt them forever,” Carter says.

“It’s easier to just go along,” says Carter, who is also author of “How to Argue Like Jesus.” “You don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. That’s a powerful word."

Edward Johnson, a communication professor at Campbell University in North Carolina, says we are now living in a "postmodern" era where everything is relative and there is no universally accepted truth. It's an environment in which anyone who says "this is right" and "that is wrong" is labeled intolerant, he says.

There was a time when a person could publicly say homosexuality was wrong and people could consider the statement without anger, he says. Today, people have reverted to an intellectual tribalism where they are only willing to consider the perspective of their own tribe.

“They are incapable of comprehending that someone may have a view different than theirs,” Johnson says. “For them anyone who dares to question the dogma of the tribe can only be doing so out of hatred.”

Sprigg, from the Family Research Council, says his condemnation of homosexual conduct does not spring from intolerance but a desire to protect gays from harmful conduct, he says.

Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the council, wrote in a council pamphlet that homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are straight men. He also wrote that gay men are also afflicted with a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and mental illness as well.

Sprigg says he does not believe homosexuality is a choice and that “personal testimonies" and "clinical experience” show that some people “can and do change from gay to straight.”

“Maybe we need to do a better job of showing that we are motivated by Christian love,” Sprigg says. “Love is wanting the best for someone, and acting to bring that about.”

'That's a lie'

Potok, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, has little use for the love Sprigg talks about.

He calls it hatred, and his voice rose in anger when he talked about the claims by Sprigg and other Christian groups that gay men are more predisposed to molest children and that homosexual behavior is inherently harmful.

He says the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t designate the Family Research Group a hate group because they view homosexuality as a sin or oppose same-sex marriage, Potok says. There are plenty of Christian groups who hold those beliefs but are not hate groups, he says.

A group becomes a hate group when it attacks and maligns an entire class of people for their “immutable characteristics,” Potok says. The Family Research Council spreads known falsehoods about gays and lesbians, he says, such as the contention that gay men are predisposed to abuse children.

“That’s a lie,” Potok says. “These guys are engaging in straight-up defamation of a very large group of people. There are not many things much worse than you can say in America about somebody than they are a child molester.”

Potok scoffed at Spriggs’ claim that the council and other evangelical anti-gay groups are victims of intolerance.

“That’s whining on the part of people who spend their days and nights attacking gay people and then some people criticize them and they don’t like it,” he says. “That’s pathetic. It reminds me of slave owners complaining that people are saying ugly things about them.”

What the Bible says

What about the popular evangelical claim, “We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin” – is that seen as intolerance or hate speech when it comes to homosexuality?

There are those who say you can’t hate the sin and love the sinner because being gay or lesbian is defined by one’s sexual behavior; it’s who someone is.

“Most people who identify as gay and lesbian would say that this is not an action I’m choosing to do; this is who I am,” says Timothy Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book.”

Beal, a religion professor at Case Western University in Ohio, says it should be difficult for any Christian to unequivocally declare that the Bible opposes homosexuality because the Bible doesn’t take a single position on the topic. It's an assertion that many scholars and mainline Protestant pastors would agree with.

Some people cite Old Testament scriptures as condemning homosexuality, such as  Leviticus 18:22 - “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” But other Christians counter by saying they are not bound by the Old Testament.

There are those who also cite New Testament scriptures like Romans 1:26-27 - “… Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men. …”

Beal, however, says Jesus said little about sex. And the Apostle Paul, who wrote Romans, was probably referring to male prostitution and men having sexual relations with boys, a practice in the Greco-Roman world.

“Paul does not understand genetics and sexual orientation the way we understand it now as something much more than a choice,” says Beal.

Some evangelicals say Christians can’t change their view of biblical truth just because times change. But some scholars reply:

Sure you can. Christians do it all the time.

Denying a woman’s ability to preach in church was justified by scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 - “… I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” But many churches have abandoned that teaching - and some scholars say a woman preached the first Christian sermon, when Mary Magdalene proclaimed that Jesus had risen.

Slaveholders in 19th century America justified slavery through a literal reading of the Bible, quoting Titus 2:9-10 – “Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything. …” And anti-Semitism was justified by the claims that Jews killed Jesus, such as Matthew 27: 25-26 - “Let his blood be on us and on our children.”

Litfin, from Moody Bible Institute, acknowledged that the Bible once sanctioned slavery, but he said that practice was a “cultural expression” that changed over time. Evangelicals who oppose same-sex marriage by citing the Bible are on more solid ground, he says.

“Marriage is a universal and timeless institution that God set up for maximum human flourishing. He set it up in the first book of the Bible with the story of Adam and Eve. It is consistent throughout the whole Bible. … Marriage is in a different category than those cultural things.”

Public jousts over the Bible's stance on homosexuality rarely change people’s minds. What changes is when people get to know gay and lesbian people as friends and hear their story, says Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible.”

“If you open up to that other person genuinely, you basically come to a point where you have to sacrifice them to your ideology or crack open your ideology to make a hospitable place for them,” Beal says.

One Christian pastor who is gay says the uproar over the ESPN commentator’s comments can actually be good,  because debates help settle moral disputes.

“What appears to us as antiquated and prejudicial now was once a disputed issue that required debate,” says the Rev. Richard McCarty, a minister in the United Church of Christ and a religious studies professor at Mercyhurst University in Pennsylvania.

Until the debate over homosexuality is settled - if it ever is - there may be plenty of evangelical Christians who feel as if they are now being forced to stay in the closet.

Carter, the evangelical blogger, says he foresees a day when any church that preaches against homosexuality will be marginalized. Just as many churches now accept divorce, they will accept sexual practices once considered sinful.

“It’s getting to the point,” he says, “where churches are not going to say that any sexual activity is wrong.”

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Church • Church and state • Culture wars • Protest • Sex • Sexuality • Sports

soundoff (10,982 Responses)
  1. Chad

    @WASP "humans have the greatest tool of any animal ever in the history of the world.......................we can imagine. we can see a house in our minds and then figure out how to build that house to make it real. that is what gave us the ability to understand how to turn wood in spears, bows and arrows, etc."

    =>the fascinating thing about you, is that you utterly fail to realize that your belief system claims that what you are saying is utter nonsense.
    Atheists believe that all there is, is the physical universe and the laws which govern it.

    thats IT, that's what you think. All there is, is the material universe and the laws that govern it. That IS the atheist belief system. Under that belief system, how can one possibly explain free will, imagination?
    impossible, cant be done.

    Do you have any idea at all how irrational your post is?

    “Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

    Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets
    . Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.”
    — Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design

    The idea is that “freedom” of the will is simply the fact that human behavior is unpredictable, and that this unpredictability is a consequence of the random character of “quantum processes” happening in the brain… To be subject to random mental disturbance is not freedom but a kind of slavery or even madness - (Professor of Theoretical Particle Physics at the University of Delaware, Stephen Barr, 178)

    May 7, 2013 at 11:47 pm |
    • Athy

      Nothing you said could possibly convince any reasonably intelligent person that there is a deity. You're grasping at straws.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • Chad

      @Athy

      you seem utterly determined to retain atheism despite all evidence to the contrary.

      why? Are you not willing to follow the argument where it leads?

      Why would you not read Antony Flews book? What do you have to lose?

      May 7, 2013 at 11:57 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Of course, no evidence to the contrary has ever been presented. Just lots of convoluted words and arguments 'cause there is not a shred of factual, independent, verifiable or objective evidence for any god.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:07 am |
    • Athy

      There is no evidence to the contrary. Not even a whit.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • JamesK

      Flew went senile before he died, didn't he? Couldn't remember the complicated science that had led him to atheism when he was younger, and then he fell in with that Christian guy who basically wrote his last book, the conversion one, for him. Guy used American words trying to sound like British Flew. I can't see how anyone could have been fooled by this.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • Reality

      What any rational human would do:

      Review the information starting with what is known about the historical Jesus if you are a Christian.

      Some starting references:

      o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.

      2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
      – a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication and a discussion of each–

      30-60 CE Passion Narrative
      40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
      50-60 1 Thessalonians
      50-60 Philippians
      50-60 Galatians
      50-60 1 Corinthians
      50-60 2 Corinthians
      50-60 Romans
      50-60 Philemon
      50-80 Colossians
      50-90 Signs Gospel
      50-95 Book of Hebrews
      50-120 Didache
      50-140 Gospel of Thomas
      50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
      50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
      65-80 Gospel of Mark
      70-100 Epistle of James
      70-120 Egerton Gospel
      70-160 Gospel of Peter
      70-160 Secret Mark
      70-200 Fayyum Fragment
      70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
      73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
      80-100 2 Thessalonians
      80-100 Ephesians
      80-100 Gospel of Matthew
      80-110 1 Peter
      80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
      80-130 Gospel of Luke
      80-130 Acts of the Apostles
      80-140 1 Clement
      80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
      80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
      80-250 Christian Sibyllines
      90-95 Apocalypse of John
      90-120 Gospel of John
      90-120 1 John
      90-120 2 John
      90-120 3 John
      90-120 Epistle of Jude
      93 Flavius Josephus
      100-150 1 Timothy
      100-150 2 Timothy
      100-150 T-itus
      100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
      100-150 Secret Book of James
      100-150 Preaching of Peter
      100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
      100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
      100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
      100-160 2 Peter

      3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
      – "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
      4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
      5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
      6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
      7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
      8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
      joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
      9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

      Added references are available upon written request.

      And one of the many results of such free and rational thinking:

      The Apostles' Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
      and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen

      May 8, 2013 at 12:10 am |
    • Ken

      JamesK
      What Flew claimed to be at the end was a deist, not a Christian. He denied the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, and any afterlife. I'm not sure about senility, but Flew did suffer from nominal aphasia which did affect his memory, so the charge that he simply lost the ability to hold all the science in his head is still a possibility. Too bad Dawkins or some other leading scientist never had the opportunity to debate him after the change. I would have been interesting to see if he could still articulate his arguments live.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:20 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Atheists believe that all there is, is the physical universe and the laws which govern it.

      Not necessarily. I know several Atheist witches, for example. They certainly believe in a spiritual world, just not god. I also know an Atheist paranormal investigator. He doesn't believe in god, but he does believe in ghosts.

      An atheist, as you have been told repeatedly is someone who doesn't believe in god. The word does not imply any belief system.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:27 am |
    • Chad is stoopid

      Chad, that is not the "atheist belief system" as you so ignorantly put it.
      That is a scientific explanation.
      Atheism is ONLY the LACK of a BELIEF in any GODS you pathetically stupid troll.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:32 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Chad continues to deflect from his basic problem, his inability to prove any god exists, by chattering on about what he thinks atheists think and his perceived problems with atheist thinking. Just lots of words, smoke and mirrors – zero substance towards proving that his, or any, god exists.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:34 am |
    • mama k

      Chad on one level, I think we can look at free will and say that it is an illusion to all of us. Theists can't prove they have been granted free will and non-theists can't prove exactly what they perceive as free will either. But we all feel like we are experiencing the ability to have it. There seems to be a lot more to a perceived free will and different theories on determinism than just these somewhat casual considerations posed by Hawking and Mlodinow when it doesn't seem to be their main focus. Otherwise, I would guess they would have laid for groundwork on on what they meant by all the terms. For your new source, the problem there is that it sounds like the middle part of a thought. You should include what was around the Barr quote.

      Also, even if we consider free will an illusion, why should that eliminate imagination? Can't we think of imagination as being just other extensions of illusion?

      May 8, 2013 at 12:46 am |
    • mama k

      ( laid more groundwork )

      May 8, 2013 at 12:48 am |
    • skytag

      "Under that belief system, how can one possibly explain free will, imagination? impossible, cant be done."

      Sorry, but this is not even remotely a valid argument. First, you have no evidence supporting your premise that we have free will. It's entirely possible that our choices are solely the result of our brains processing large amounts of data gathered over our lifetimes and that process is unique in each of us because each of our brains is unique. However, this all happens in such as way as to give the appearance of free will, in much the same way as a computer can appear to be intelligent.

      As for imagination, that could easily be explained by our brains combining information and ideas in various ways until something meaningful and new it produced.

      The fundamental flaw in your argument, and it's a biggie, is the premise that we must always have an explanation for something. If you embrace that notion and we have no scientific explanation then you claim God is responsible. In point of fact, if we don't know what causes something, all you can say for sure is that we don't know what causes it.

      Over the course of human history there have been many cases where people attributed something to God, spirits, the devil, or some such supernatural power, only to have that explanation debunked when science found the real explanation. For example, people used to believe evil spirits caused diseases. We now know they are caused by bacteria and viruses. Mental illness has a scientific explanation now as well.

      There's no reason to believe imagination is any different. It could very well have a scientific explanation we simply haven't discovered yet. Free will may be nothing more than the appearance of free will.

      May 8, 2013 at 1:00 am |
    • skytag

      What if we don't have free will? What if our choices are nothing more than the end result of a complex process in which our brains arrive at a choice after analysin a lot of information collected over a lifetime. Because the process is so complex and so fast we see it as free will when it's actually just the result of a computer program in our brains spitting out a choice.

      May 8, 2013 at 1:05 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Re: super fast complex computer program vs free will, no problem, depending upon how you define free will. If free will is simply the ability to make a decision without regard to an alleged supernatural being, the mechanism of how decisions get made are irrelevant. If you buy into a theist's convoluted mumbo jumbo about their definition of free will, then I suppose being nothing more than a super fast computer is somehow degrading and a twisted rationale for a god, but of course, I don't so don't see any issues at all.

      May 8, 2013 at 1:21 am |
    • Ironicus

      Once you say you have free will, you cannot then turn around and say your god touches and affects everything large and small. That is just insane. Your brain is part of that "large and small" and therefore you have no free will whether a god exists or not.
      If you can admit that you do not have complete control over your body and mind, then we can move forward and you can shut up about that "free will" nonsense.

      May 8, 2013 at 2:54 am |
    • Science

      Update :for you chad/rachael .................and chapter 6^..............you know chad !

      Update :

      See for yourself below.................The fairy in the sky did NOT create us !!!

      Monkey Math: Baboons Show Brain's Ability to Understand Numbers ..........E = mc2..............(U-Pb) numbers do not lie !

      May 3, 2013 — Opposing thumbs, expressive faces, complex social systems: it's hard to miss the similarities between apes and humans. Now a new study with a troop of zoo baboons and lots of peanuts shows that a less obvious trait – the ability to understand numbers – also is shared by humans and their primate cousins.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130503132719.htm

      OR.........take a ride on a DINO.

      Fossil records are better to read than the nasty bible..................no god(s) required !

      Oldest? New 'Bone-Head' Dinosaur Hints at Higher Diversity of Small Dinosaurs

      May 7, 2013 — Scientists have named a new species of bone-headed dinosaur (pachycephalosaur) from Alberta, Canada. Acrotholus audeti (Ack-RHO-tho-LUS) was identified from both recently discovered and historically collected fossils. Approximately six feet long and weighing about 40 kilograms in life, the newly identified plant-eating dinosaur represents the oldest bone-headed dinosaur in North America, and possibly the world.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130507124800.htm

      The Science Guy takes on creationism

      CNN|Added on November 24, 2012

      http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/11/24/intv-nye-creationism.cnn?iref=allsearch

      See for yourself below.................The fairy in the sky did NOT create us !!!

      Monkey Math: Baboons Show Brain's Ability to Understand Numbers ..........E = mc2..............(U-Pb) numbers do not lie !

      May 3, 2013 — Opposing thumbs, expressive faces, complex social systems: it's hard to miss the similarities between apes and humans. Now a new study with a troop of zoo baboons and lots of peanuts shows that a less obvious trait – the ability to understand numbers – also is shared by humans and their primate cousins.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130503132719.htm

      OR.........take a ride on a DINO.

      Fossil records are better to read than the nasty bible..................no god(s) required !

      Oldest? New 'Bone-Head' Dinosaur Hints at Higher Diversity of Small Dinosaurs

      May 7, 2013 — Scientists have named a new species of bone-headed dinosaur (pachycephalosaur) from Alberta, Canada. Acrotholus audeti (Ack-RHO-tho-LUS) was identified from both recently discovered and historically collected fossils. Approximately six feet long and weighing about 40 kilograms in life, the newly identified plant-eating dinosaur represents the oldest bone-headed dinosaur in North America, and possibly the world.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130507124800.htm

      The Science Guy takes on creationism

      CNN|Added on November 24, 2012

      http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/11/24/intv-nye-creationism.cnn?iref=allsearch

      May 8, 2013 at 7:41 am |
    • Chad

      @JamesK “Flew went senile before he died, didn't he?”
      @Chad “nonsense refuted by Flew himself, Flew announced he was deist in 2004”
      in interviews: http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/
      in video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArU

      =====
      @Ken “What Flew claimed to be at the end was a deist, not a Christian”
      @Chad “correct, putting to death the nonsense argument that he converted because he was scared of dying.

      =====
      @mama k, @skytag

      That’s the “ignorance is bliss” defense (“we don’t have free will, but who cares?”). IF in fact you did believe, as you claim, that free will is an illusion, then why do you incessantly criticize me? Wouldn’t you merely accept me as executing deterministically as you would claim you are?
      Your posts are self refuting.

      =====
      @HotAirAce, @Athy “There is no evidence to the contrary. Not even a whit.”
      @Chad “that is nonsense, as always:
      Historical evidence
      – no historical detail in the bible has ever been proved to be incorrect
      – Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth
      – Historicity of the empty tomb
      – Origin of the disciples belief that they had met a resurrected Jesus, a belief they held so strongly that they were willing to go to their deaths proclaiming the truth.

      Scientific evidence for the God of Israel
      Fossil Record.
      From the late 1800's thru 1972 the notion of "Darwinian gradualism" held the world captive. The notion that purely random mutation preserved in the population by natural selection would produce a gradual change, which over time would create the complexity of life we now observe (phyletic gradualism).
      Then, in 1972 the publication of "Punctuated equilibria: an alternative to phyletic gradualism" by Stephen Gould (atheist) finally forced the scientific world to accept the reality that the fossil record does not show the gradual change over time that Darwin proposed.

      Instead, what the community was forced to acknowledge, is that the fossil record reflects stasis and rapid change.
      This supports the theistic evolutionist claim that God used natural processes to develop life on this earth, as pure chance can never explain the grand paroxysm of necessarily interrelated mutations that are required to occur to accomplish this rapid change.

      Origins of the universe
      For most of scientific history, the universe was thought to have always existed, directly refuting the theistic claim that the universe had a beginning, and a creator.

      Then, a series of discoveries resulted in a complete transformation of thought, we now know that our universe has not always existed, rather it had a beginning, confirming the theistic claim:
      – 1929: Edwin Hubble discovers red shift (the stars and planets are all moving away from each other. The universe is expanding in all directions)
      – 1965: discovery of microwave cosmic background radiation (the echo's of the big bang)
      – 1998, two independent research groups studying distant supernovae were astonished to discover, against all expectations, that the current expansion of the universe is accelerating (Reiss 1998, Perlmutter 1999).
      – 2003: Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin's Past-Finite Universe proves our universe had a beginning

      Fine Tuning of the universe
      In the past 30 or 40 years, scientists have been astonished to find that the initial conditions of our universe were fine-tuned for the existence of building blocks of life. Constants such as gravitational constant have been found, the variation of which to even the smallest degree, would have rendered the universe utterly incapable of supporting life.

      "There is now broad agreement among physicists and cosmologists that the Universe is in several respects ‘fine-tuned' for life". However, he continues, "the conclusion is not so much that the Universe is fine-tuned for life; rather it is fine-tuned for the building blocks and environments that life requires." - Paul Davies

      "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the mas ses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life - Stephen Hawking

      “As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. Dyson of the Insti tute for Advanced Study in Princeton

      ”The big bang appeared to be a very peculiar kind of explosion. Just imagine a pin balancing on its point. Nudge it slightly in any direction and it will fall. So it is with the big bang. A large universe sprinkled with galaxies, like the one we see around us, is produced only if the power of the primoridial blast is fine tuned with incredible precision. A tiny deviation from the required power results in a cosmological disaster, such as the fireball collapsing under its own weight or the universe being nearly empty” – Alexander Vilenkin

      Now, neither Davies or Hawking is a believer in God. They both believe in fine tuning, they just posit natural reasons for it.

      Evidence from human experience
      – Objective morality exists
      – Free will exists (it doesn’t in the atheist/naturalist/determinist view)

      May 8, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Hey Chad, since you're into posting arguments that have been debunked a thousand different times in a hundred different ways, why not go on and on and on about a flat earth and the arguments that attend that silly position? How 'bout it since the arguments are all defunct, anywa?

      May 8, 2013 at 11:07 am |
    • Chad

      @Cpt. Obvious

      "that's all nonsense" is not a refutation..

      May 8, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • Reality

      Refuting the empty tomb "thu-mptations" etc.:

      For more on the infamous Resurrection con, see Professor Gerd Ludemann's review in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, (Mark 16) and also http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb275.html.

      For more on the infamous Ascension con, see the same book, Luke 24:50-53 and http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb480.html

      So where are the bones???

      According to Professor JD Crossan's many exhaustive studies, they still are a-mouldering in the ground outside of Jerusalem or were eaten by wild dogs and are now cycling through nature's recycling system.

      And regarding the historical Jesus, scroll up the page and some added references for perusal.

      16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
      17. Diseases in the Bible:
      etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
      18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
      theologians, ethics, etc.
      religion-online.org/
      19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
      mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
      20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
      21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
      ntgateway.com/
      22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
      members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
      23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
      24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
      25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
      faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
      26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
      27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
      28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
      infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
      29. NT and beyond time line:
      pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
      30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
      harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
      31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
      32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
      33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
      34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
      35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus

      May 8, 2013 at 11:48 am |
    • Reality

      What we do know: (from the fields of astrophysics, biology, biochemistry, archeology, nuclear physics, geology and the history of religion)

      1. The Sun will burn out in 3-5 billion years so we have a time frame.

      2. Asteroids continue to circle us in the nearby asteroid belt.

      3. One wayward rock/comet and it is all over in a blast of permanent winter.

      4. There are enough nuclear weapons to do the same job.

      5. Most contemporary NT exegetes do not believe in the Second Coming so apparently there is no concern about JC coming back on an asteroid or cloud of raptors/rapture.

      6. All stars will eventually extinguish as there is a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the universe. When this happens (100 trillion years?), the universe will go dark. If it does not collapse and recycle, the universe will end.

      7. Super, dormant volcanoes off the coast of Africa and under Yellowstone Park could explode cataclysmically at any time ending life on Earth.

      8. Many of us are part Neanderthal and/or Denisovan especially those of European descent. (Find out for $199 and a mouth swab sent to the National Geographic Genealogical Project.

      Bottom line: our apocalypse will start between now and 3-5 billion CE. The universe apocalypse, 100 trillion years if it does not recycle?

      May 8, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Bill

      Chad I follow your argument, and it is stupid and leads me to believe that you don't know what you are talking about.

      May 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • My Dog is a jealous Dog

      I don't care if free will is an illusion or not – I'm still going to do what I want to do. I may be deluding myself into thinking that I made a choice, but it really doesn't matter to me.

      The idea that free will is an illusion is not going to make me believe in fairy tales. I don't know what you intend to prove or how it makes any difference at all.

      You are very skilled at intellectual masturbation.

      May 8, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Correct, Chad

      However, when it has been demonstrated to you time and again and over and over and over–to be nonsense–yet you keep posting it as if it hasn't been soundly refuted, is pure stupidity. You do stupid sh!t and you're stupid because you continue in ignorance even after having been shown true wisdom. Your method refutes your message, and I'm thrilled that you think you're effective in your efforts and continue to undermine your position over and over and over, here. Thank you!!

      May 8, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Chad

      The video you trot out as proof that Antony Flew refutes atheism...have you actually watched it?

      It is chopped all to hell...the 'interviewer' leads and helps him with his answers.

      'His' book was actually written by an evangelical, Roy Abraham Varghese – with another guy, Bob Hostetler – rewriting the whole thing for 'readability'.

      All his correspondences with the media, NY times etc. came from Varghese acting as his proxy...kind of convenient, no?

      If the man wasn't compromised, why in the hell would he need either of these two clowns to write a book? look at his list of books man!

      Stop with the Flew line – absolutely shameless...by them ..and by you.

      May 8, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
  2. Colin

    It seems to be generally true that; (i) a person's belief in the Bible is inversely proportional to how aware they are of how the collection was written, compiled and passed down through history; (ii) the strength of a person's belief in a god is inversely proportional to their knowledge of science and natural history; and (iii) a person's dependency on the Bible for moral guidance is directly proportional to their propensity toward violence and the subjugation of others.

    It this tome really was divinely inspired, would we not reasonably expect the exact opposite in all three areas?

    May 7, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      You need to rewrite that, Colin.

      May 7, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
    • Foxy knoxy is innocent

      What about jodi Arias?

      May 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
    • Athy

      There's no need to rewrite Colin's post. If you don't understand it, go back to school. And stay awake this time!

      May 7, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • skytag

      I'm an atheist, but I don't believe any of those things are true.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • lol??

      Yes, a closer look, maybe as close as a colonoscopy.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      Athy
      ಠ_ಠ

      May 7, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
    • lol??

      Ragging on the false prophets left you wide open to destruction on your backside from the Beast (gubmint). This shows novice style thinking in your fight against evil and disaster.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:48 pm |
    • Chad

      @Colin

      if you really understood and embraced atheism, you would understand that your criticism of anyone, for anything, is immoral.

      you arent atheistic, you're anti-theistic..

      May 8, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • >

      @chad

      Agreed.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:31 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Whether Colin, or anyone else, is atheist or anti-theist is not relevant to theists proving anything about their unsupported, delusional beliefs. This is just another Chadism – whenever possible, deflect attention away from the insane beliefs of the dead jew zombie cult.

      And for what it's worth, all believers should feel free to label me an atheist or an anti-theist – whatever makes you feel better – I readily admit to hating all religions equally.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • VertIcicle

      Athy, I am one of Colin's fans. He makes some small errors in spots and it is hard to read. I'm not going to parse it out because I know Colin is more than capable of seeing what needs to be done. k?

      May 8, 2013 at 1:37 am |
    • Ironicus

      Naowww I know Colin is smarter than that. I'm guessing he tossed that word salad out and ran away to do other stuff.
      "Generally true" – whaaat is that boolsheet, holmes? You got to avoid that sheet, esse.

      May 8, 2013 at 3:23 am |
  3. Douglas

    Out, Proud and Celibate!
    A Declaration of Independence from fornication.
    Thank you brave LGBTQ pioneers for rejecting the urge to sin and delivering on the promise of celibacy!
    Open the doors of the church to the LGBTQ celibates...call them the sons and daughters of God!

    May 7, 2013 at 10:29 pm |
    • Colin

      What's the Q?

      May 7, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      wut
      ಠ_ಠ

      May 7, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • Douglas

      Questioning

      May 7, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      ಠ_ಠ

      May 7, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • mama k

      Congrats to Delaware today, yet another state legalizing gay marriage! I would imagine churches such as United Church of Christ and ELCA will begin performing gay marriages there.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:19 pm |
    • Saraswati

      LOL, any idea how stupid this sounds from an obviously straight person? It would sound stupid from anyone, but I've never seen anyone here but straight folks saying this looney. If you of Bill or whoever really want to push this silly crap you probably need to pretend you're gay though I very much doubt in you ignorance you'll pull it off. Or...even less likely...find an actual gay or lesbian spokesperson. Good luck.

      May 8, 2013 at 5:12 am |
    • sam stone

      Doogie is a voice from deep in a closet

      May 8, 2013 at 9:23 am |
  4. faith

    larry and i plan on honeymooning in hawaii

    May 7, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • Austin

      are you really? Congratulations!

      May 7, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • faith

      cnn is culpable 4 each threat posted by the god-hating Nazi fascists

      May 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • skytag

      faith, that comment is more evidence that religion makes people stupid. I don't know anyone who hates God. Atheists certainly don't because that would involve hating something we believe doesn't exist. Atheists have no feelings at all about God for this simple reason.

      I don't hate your imaginary friend. I don't even hate Christians when they act like Christians. I often find them to be rather arrogant and obnoxious when they act as if they're superior to anyone who doesn't believe what they believe even though they have no evidence whatsoever to support what they believe.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • skytag

      faith, I haven't seen anyone here making threats, so perhaps that's another form of delusions from which you suffer. In any case, why would you care about threats? Won't your God protect you from harm? And if he doesn't, won't you be blessed if you're reviled and persecuted for your beliefs? What do you have to lose? Or could it be that deep down you don't believe and that stuff you profess to believe?

      May 7, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      "god-hating" = believer
      Only believers can hate a god.
      Nazis = Christians
      The Nazis were Christian ultra-nationalists. They loved Jesus so much they wanted to kill the Jews who killed Jesus.
      Fascism = Police state political system
      The Nazis were fascists due to their religious and ultra-nationalist fervor.
      ---
      I do not see anyone threatening you, much less any 90-something geezer Christians with bad German accents.
      You are going to Hawaii? Enjoy getting groped by the TSA. The Christian Fascists are already in charge. You're welcome.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      I now a few god-haters, they call themselves Maltheists. They believe god exists, but is evil. I don't know any that post here.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:30 am |
    • skytag

      VertIcicle, the Nazi's hatred of the Jews was more political and cultural than religious.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:30 am |
    • VertIcicle

      Yet they still had to overcome the religious restrictions on not only killing, but attacking "God's Chosen People" despite being worshipers of Jesus whose whole existence, authority, and god is based upon the Jewish religion and culture.
      We still see this sort of schizoid behavior in Christians today depending on what sect they are following.
      If your holy authority comes from the god who chose Jews, who raped a little Jewish girl who then gave birth to Jesus, who is supposedly the basis for all of Jewish culture, then killing Jews had to be done with that authority – a major schism in religious reasoning was needed.
      Catholicism is anti-Jew. Lutheranism is also, I would imagine but I haven't heard of many Lutheran pogroms against Jews unless you include the ones by Lutheran Nazis.
      These days, the US protects Israel. The Vatican does not. Politics and religion are not exclusive when most politicians are religious and we see religion corrupting politics for all of recorded history.
      Had any priest come out to oppose the Nazi party on religious grounds, they would have disappeared from view very quickly. Religion is a form of politics. Delusion used as a mind-distorting weapon / tool against the ignorant.
      To invade and kill everyone around you, as Germany did, required nothing more than propaganda.
      Sure, some of it was purely non-religious in tone, painting Jews however they liked, but the intent and goals of the propaganda were religious. Straight from the Vatican, I expect. Forcing Jews to convert is a religious thing.
      Targeting Jews by Nazis were supported by their pastors and priests, who exhorted them to go out and kill.
      Once you think you have the ultimate god on your side no matter what you do or what happens to you, murder, lies, propaganda, raping, pillage, and all that stuff become extremely easy and HOLY.
      The Reich is a Christian vision of a Holy Roman Empire for modern times. The smell of burning flesh still taints the walls of the Vatican. Ultranationalist fervor was taken to such extremes because it was religious in nature. The Holy Germanic Empire was being born. They thought they were glorious and holy soldiers for God. Exceptions exist, I'm sure, but it was a religious mania – to "bring the Gospel to All Nations" you first had to conquer them. Germans thought they were better Christians than their neighbors, more holy than God's own chosen holy Jews, and the Final Solution is a religious "solution" to the religious "problem" of the Jews themselves.
      To wipe out a whole hated and vilified sector of the population you need more than just politics, you need the backing of the religious leaders, or they would oppose you at some point and ruin everything.
      If there had been a Christian opposition to killing Jews, either on secular or religious grounds, driven by the priests, Germany would never have been able to pull it off the way it did.
      A culture filled with Christians and you don't think they weren't making religious excuses and justifications for what they did and said? Are you serious? Please. Just stop trying to make Nazis out to be non-religious. They though their god was supporting everything they did so nothing was too extreme for them, do you see? I hope you get it.

      May 8, 2013 at 1:10 am |
    • Ironicus

      @VertIcicle
      That is way too big for most of these trolls. They have the attention span of SQUIRREL!!...dogs on meth.
      One or two sentences. Twitter wins the debate.

      May 8, 2013 at 2:58 am |
  5. Vic

    In reference to:

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/comment-page-92/#comment-2331203

    The reason I ask these kind of questions is to try to understand how Evolutionists reason their Evolution Hypothesis!

    If Evolution and Natural Selection were true, people in cold climates would have retained their fur while people in warm/hot climates have lost it! Yet, in reality, there is absolutely no distinction between people based on climate when it comes to body hair! Furthermore, hair and fur are two totally different things!

    The same thing goes for size/stature, flight, amphibia, ..etc. Throughout human history, people in different areas in the world needed different environment based capabilities to survive; e.g. some needed to be bigger and stronger, some needed to fly, some needed to breathe in air and underwater, ..etc. Yet, in reality, all people have the same set of functions and capabilities regardless of the geographical area they are in!

    Last but not least, why did Evolution and Natural Selection stop at all?!

    ..
    Related Previous Post:

    http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/15/science-seat-you-could-have-been-a-furry-beast/comment-page-2/#comment-136408

    May 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Why would you think it has stopped?

      Evolution occurred. It is occurring. It will continue to occur.

      May 7, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Why should anyone answer you here when it is clear you have not read for comprehension the answers already provided at the original location?

      May 7, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • Thyme

      While microevolution is observable, there is no scientific evidence for macro evolution .

      May 7, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • Athy

      People living in cold climates emigrated there from warm climates after developing methods of survival there; e.g., warm clothing, fire, shelter construction. There was no need to evolve, except for lighter skin to reduce heat loss. Read, read, read.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • Ironicus

      READ MOAR

      May 8, 2013 at 2:59 am |
  6. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

    if you say it loud enough you'll always sound precocious.

    May 7, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
  7. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

    Even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious,

    May 7, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
    • Good God!

      Is summer break already here?

      May 7, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
  8. .

    original Dorothy
    absolutely terrifying
    Terrifying is the Good "Christian"
    who calls everyone juvenile names, whether they believe in God or not. Terrifying is that this is typical of what I see at church...and faith seems to think this is perfectly justifiable Christian behavior. Wanna know why churches are hemmoraging younger members? Because of snarky, mean, intolerant hypocrites just like faith. Go to hell, faith. You're on your way anyhow.

    May 7, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
    • Dorothy

      step off. Have you hear of righteous indignation? People have emotions for a reason . Since anyone with a faith from God "needs to be medicated" then we understand that we are dealing with a spiritual smothering devils cult. The circle seance of flesh tearing tormentors.

      How can we butter that up for ya? Is it respect that you are after? Whos respect are you after? a bunch of God rejectors or God himself?

      May 7, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
  9. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

    Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
    I AM SMART!!!

    May 7, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
    • Why?

      For being pretentious?

      May 7, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
  10. Dyslexic doG

    from the Bible:

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.
    – Deut 13:7-12

    Get to work Christians. Every word of the Bible must be obeyed right?

    What a joke!

    May 7, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
  11. Dyslexic doG

    from the Bible:

    Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. – 1 Corinthians 14

    Know your place Christian women. Every word of the Bible must be obeyed right?

    What a joke!

    May 7, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
  12. Dyslexic doG

    from the Bible:

    If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
    – Matthew 18:7-9

    Get to work on yourselves Christians. Every word of the Bible must be obeyed right? Every word Matthew wrote was a true quote from Jesus' lips right?

    What a joke!

    May 7, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      How does a limb or an organ cause someone to sin? Is The Babble saying that they have minds of their own?

      May 7, 2013 at 9:41 pm |
    • Jesus

      Well I can raise the dead but I can't regrow limbs, who do you think I am, an all powerful God or something? Those punishments mean permanent maiming so even if you repent you are shlt outa luck...

      May 7, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
  13. Dyslexic doG

    From the Bible:

    If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall ... say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death.
    – Deut 21

    Get to work on your teenagers Christians. Every word of the Bible must be obeyed right?

    What a joke!

    May 7, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • skytag

      No, much of the Old Testament is not to be followed. Stop being a jerk.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
  14. Dyslexic doG

    Actual quotes from the Bible. The book every Christian must Obey. The book that is the word of God:

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. – Isaiah 13

    Or this:

    Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. – Hosea 13

    Or this:

    Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. – Numbers 31

    So Christians, you just keep telling yourselves this isn't just a book written by bronze age barbarians... your loving God wrote this book.

    What a joke.

    May 7, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • skytag

      I think pretty much all Christians believe that those admonitions no longer apply after Christ was here and give them new laws to follow. Using Old Testament scriptures like this is lame for that reason.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Ironicus

      I agree. Most I have seen are in complete denial and only cherry pick anyway. You can't reason with most of them, really.

      May 8, 2013 at 3:17 am |
  15. R.M. Goodswell

    Fiction novels, our ability to write them, to create fantastic worlds- i.e. star wars, Game of Thrones etc. didn't just start in the last 100 years or so..humans have always had this ability.. You can track the technological progress of humanity by our fiction. The limits that we can imagine.

    Christianity, Islam, etc. are exactly that works of fiction, Heaven, Valhalla, , any otherworldly paradise....just fiction like Star Trek. and limited to the technology of the day.....that's why the holy books read like they do.

    Hard to give up a money maker – many jobs based on Religion.... truly sad.....

    No humans = no gods

    Peace All – and take care.

    – matt

    May 7, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      Amen!

      May 7, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • Athy

      Well said, R.M., but don't capitalize religion; it doesn't deserve it.

      May 7, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Gschutz

      If you are familiar with Greco-Roman myths and legends you will notice that the gospel accounts and New Testmament letters are not written like them. They include details and specific people from certain places; and they were written too soon after the events to be myths (Paul's letter to Phillipi about 15). They, unlike myths are written like reportage of events. So either they are an actual account of Christ or magically, these writers invented the literary genre of modern realistic novels.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:14 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Given that there is no factual, independent, verifiable or objective evidence for any god or a divine jesus, most likely it's not the former.

      May 8, 2013 at 12:26 am |
    • faith

      is that right?
      very interesting.
      never thought of it quite like that.

      i agree.
      out of nowhere
      and
      from nothing,
      here we are!
      pretty cool
      can u dig it?

      May 8, 2013 at 12:39 am |
    • faith

      absolutely. there is no evidence for gawd. heck, i could make this place. ever seen the amazing krezkin? i taught him everything. he never even said thanks.

      no signs of intelligent life. no signs of nothin really. the sun? big deal. my first cousin luigi made a nuclear bomb once. granted, he had tools and materials and a manual and years to do it, and he made alot of mistakes (killed 72,000 people because he sneezed at the wrong time–hey, nobody's perfect) but heck, if he can do it, y do we need fsm to make a universe!? ridiculous

      May 8, 2013 at 12:49 am |
  16. Horrible and embarassing

    I feel so sorry for my friends that I grew up with that are/were nice Christians. Seeing the monstrosities commited by churches worldwide gives me the horrors to no end. It's an embarassment and a travesty that bears no resemblence to the world I grew up in. What the hell happened to religion it's like the dark ages all over again.

    May 7, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Bullsh!t beliefs and their associated cults are not sustainable. Knowledge and time causes all of them to implode eventually. The dead jew zombie death cult has had a better run than most, but it's beginning to fall apart.

      May 7, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
    • faith

      "HotAirAce
      Bullsh!t beliefs and their associated cults are not sustainable. Knowledge and time causes all of them to implode eventually. The dead jew zombie death cult has had a better run than most, but it's beginning to fall apart." lol

      May 7, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • faith

      original Dorothy

      "Horrible and embarassing
      I feel so sorry for my friends that I grew up with that are/were nice Christians. Seeing the monstrosities commited by churches worldwide gives me the horrors to no end. It's an embarassment and a travesty that bears no resemblence to the world I grew up in. What the hell happened to religion it's like the dark ages all over again."

      absolutely terrifying

      May 7, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • skytag

      HotAirAce: Some religions die out and some thrive. Religions that require sacrifice of their members and rely heavily on rituals seem to survive better than others. Christianity thrives because it offers a comforting narrative and the Kool-aid comes in every flavor imaginable. Whatever you want in a religion some flavor of Christianity offers it. There will always be a market for a comforting narrative among those who find reality too harsh.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      Religion has always been like this. Your rose-colored glasses are on too tight.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      The only thing keeping the dead jew zombie cult alive is new adherents in third world countries with high birth rates. It's only a matter of time before they figure things out.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • faith

      skytag
      HotAirAce: Some religions die out and some thrive. Religions that require sacrifice of their members and rely heavily on rituals seem to survive better than others. Christianity thrives because it offers a comforting narrative and the Kool-aid comes in every flavor imaginable. Whatever you want in a religion some flavor of Christianity offers it. There will always be a market for a comforting narrative among those who find reality too harsh.

      thank you

      May 7, 2013 at 11:10 pm |
    • skytag

      I think we all have some sanitized view of the world in which we grew up, sheltered from the harsh realities by parents and ignorance. "The good old days" weren't usually as good as we remember them. Remember, Christians started the KKK. Nazi Germany was predominantly Catholic.

      Religions are just group of people who subscribe to a particular God narrative, and human beings aren't really as nice as we'd like to think. By and large I think religious people are better than average; not because of any divine influence in their lives, but because by their nature religions attract people who want to be good people and believe the religion they choose can help them achieve that goal. Still, they're still human, which is why some are wonderful people and some are real turds. Some are genuine and some are hypocrites. They are who they are regardless of their religious beliefs.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:29 pm |
    • faith

      i liked their hats

      skychief
      I think we all have some sanitized view of the world in which we grew up, sheltered from the harsh realities by parents and ignorance. "The good old days" weren't usually as good as we remember them. Remember, Christians started the KKK. Nazi Germany was predominantly Catholic.

      Religions are just group of people who subscribe to a particular God narrative, and human beings aren't really as nice as we'd like to think. By and large I think religious people are better than average; not because of any divine influence in their lives, but because by their nature religions attract people who want to be good people and believe the religion they choose can help them achieve that goal. Still, they're still human, which is why some are wonderful people and some are real turds. Some are genuine and some are hypocrites. They are who they are regardless of their religious beliefs.

      May 7, 2013 at 11:45 pm |
    • VertIcicle

      All religious people are mentally ill. Not every mentally ill person is religious. Extreme behaviors, such as sociopathic and psychopathic behaviors, can be motivated by religious delusions which are a cognitive disorder.
      When you have a cognitive disorder that distorts your perceptions, your thinking processes, and the motivations that arise from these, people who can see your disorder for what it truly is will diagnose you as mentally ill to some degree.
      If you think that having a mentally ill person in charge of your nuclear arsenal is okay, then you must be thinking religious freedom is okay.
      Religious freedom is only the freedom to be insane. That should be taken out of our Constitution. Our laws are not religious laws here. Our country is not a theocracy. Ritual raping of children, murder and torture of anyone young or old, pillaging victims, destroying their ability to fight back through psychological terrorism is how religion accomplishes the personal goals of those who benefit by it. Do you benefit from religion? Maybe you're part of the problem, deluded or not.

      May 8, 2013 at 2:16 am |
  17. faith

    "Dyslexic doG
    There is a book about an amazing person named Harry Potter. It tells of all the miracles he performs. There are wise men and disciples that travel with him and reference to life after death in a heaven type place. There is evil and fighting and temptation. The book is about the same thickness as the bible, and it is written by someone with a far better knowledge of the world than bronze age goat herders living in the desert.

    By Christian logic, because science can't PROVE that Harry does NOT exist, he must exist and we should worship him ...?"

    of course he exists. duh. 3 of my little brothers saw him on bourbon st b4 the big parade. he was signing autographs.

    May 7, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
    • faith

      17 guys from the 1st regiment, who claimed to have helped her write it, were shot to death when each of them refused to call the biggest hoax since FSM

      May 7, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • faith

      my cousin s. h. harmon lll edited the thing but he told congress he never thought a soul would buy it. he's under house arrest. apparently the government is taking the threat seriously. harry didn't respond to repeated attempts to reach him. we heard rumors he plans on making a statement when the hoard of reporters backs off and stops demanding that he share his version of this breaking news story

      May 7, 2013 at 8:45 pm |
    • faith

      all over the world, god-hating Nazi fascists r pointing their fingers at each other for allowing this new god to make the scene and ruin their plans for their next big fund raising event, "let's everybody hate a christian 2day! can u dig it?" many ticket holders r demanding their money back and r said 2 b flocking to harry's mansion on east van buren

      May 7, 2013 at 8:51 pm |
    • biggles

      This just in from haley scomitts who is making the scene on the scene. Go ahead Haley, what can u tell us? Well, it is all speculation at this point but sources close to the new god say she's got a great sense of humor and is taking all the fan fare in stride. We are getting late breaking reports, also not verified, that Nazi sympathizers aka the god-haters, are running around naked screaming, I didn't mean it. I was only joking. Apparently some new mantra they've begun using. Back to you

      May 7, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • biggles

      Thank you baily. Now to Bob loves more, what can you tell us Sweet Old Bob aka S.O.B. Frankly the situation here is one of utter chaos. The god-haters are weeping and yelling and howling like wild animals. A woman claiming to know something about this group says that are freaking out over lost revenue. She was hit over the head with a picture of Hitler and 87 Nazis carried her away. Hold on. Rocks and glasses of kool aid

      May 7, 2013 at 11:33 pm |
  18. mama k

    Congrats to Delaware on becoming the 11th state to legalize same-sex marriage today.

    May 7, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • Roger that

      Another cheerful day at Westboro.

      May 7, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
    • lol??

      You posted on the wrong blog.

      May 7, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
    • lol??

      Dontcha think this is gonna make all the Qweirdos that never bothered to get a license feel kinda icky?? This is rather late in the history of the humanoid race. That's a lot of guilt and shame.

      May 7, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
    • Roger that

      lol??,

      Why don't you go play on the Fox News blog?

      May 7, 2013 at 8:39 pm |
    • Akira

      What is a "Qweirdo"? I have never heard of this word before. Do explain it, lol??.

      May 7, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
  19. lol??

    Hey A&A's haven't had enuff of trashing the blog yet today?? Why not just grab a BBQ sandwich, some chips, some old TN sippin' whiskey and curl up to a gud movie, say like,

    SURVIVING THE GAME ??

    May 7, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • midwest rail

      No thanks. I prefer popcorn while watching you hallucinate in public.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • Science

      Better go help Chad ..........he is stuck in the Jell-o again lol??

      May 7, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
  20. Maunalani

    That an age of persecution is upon believers was clear when the Democrat Party vocally rejected God at its national convention last year. Hearing God being booed down 3 times by the delegates while watching it on live TV was a chilling and surreal experience.

    May 7, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Please explain how your interpretation of what happened equals "persecution" ?

      May 7, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • Akira

      Some of the delegates did that.

      And they didn't storm the stage with torches and pitchforks. This analogy doesn't hold water. Sorry.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • sam

      Yes, that's exactly it. Some delegates booed, and therefore, the end is coming. Maybe you guys should start digging some kind of underground railroad now, to escape.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • Chuckles

      What a horrible feeling to live in constant fear that at any moment an angry god will come out of no where and kill everyone because he said he would thousands of years ago.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • sam

      @Chuckles – he'll be doing it out of love, though, so it's ok.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
    • Saraswati

      They weren't booing god they were booing the undemocratic forced mixing religion and politics against the obvious will and votes of the group.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Maunalani

      You said, "That an age of persecution is upon believers was clear when the Democrat Party vocally rejected God at its national convention last year."
      They put your imaginary friend back in their platform after your ilk started crying about it. They buckled and forced the rational faction of the party to suffer under the delusion of the religious.

      It's OK, though. Those of us that have the ability for rational thought realize that it's all bullshit anyway. Our time will come. Soon (but maybe not soon enough) your imaginary friend will be relegated to where it belongs. It'll be nowhere to be found other than in the history books and the minds of simpletons.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:28 pm |
    • Akira

      Truly, if that was what you term a "a chilling and surreal experience", you have a very low threshold for surrealism...I suggest getting out into the real world more. Perhaps a children's cancer ward would bring you some perspective.

      May 7, 2013 at 7:53 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.