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 Evangelical Christians say they are the new victims of intolerance - they're persecuted for condemning homosexuality.
May 5th, 2013
06:00 AM ET
When Christians become a 'hated minority'By John Blake, CNN (CNN) - When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens. During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him. “But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group. We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot. As proof, Sprigg points to the backlash that ESPN commentator Chris Broussard sparked recently. Broussard was called a bigot and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns homosexuality. “In the current culture, it takes more courage for someone like Chris Broussard to speak out than for someone like Jason Collins to come out,” says Sprigg, a former pastor. “The media will hail someone who comes out of the closet as gay, but someone who simply expresses their personal religious views about homosexual conduct is attacked.” When is disagreement hate? Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Illinois, says Christians should be able to publicly say that God designed sex to take place within a marriage between a man and a woman. “That isn’t so outrageous,” Litfin says. “Nobody is expressing hate toward homosexuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?” But quoting the Bible doesn't inoculate anyone from becoming a bigot or hater, some scholars say. There's a point at which a Christian's opposition to homosexuality can become bigotry, and even hate speech, they say. Crossing such a line has happened many times in history. A literal reading of the Bible was used to justify all sorts of hatred: slavery, the subjugation of women and anti-Semitism, scholars and pastors say. “Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief,” says Mark D. Jordan, author of “Recruiting Young Love: How Christians Talk about Homosexuality.” “Some religious beliefs, sincerely held, are detestable. They cannot be spoken without disrupting social peace,” says Jordan, a professor at the John Danforth Center on Religion & Politics at Washington University in St. Louis. The point where religious speech becomes hate speech is difficult to define, though, scholars and activists say. The Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama is a nonprofit civil rights group that combats and monitors hate groups. Three years ago, it designated the Family Research Council, the group that Sprigg represents, as a hate group - a characterization the group stridently rejects. Mark Potok, a center spokesman, says there’s no shared definition of what constitutes hate speech. “There is no legal meaning. It’s just a phrase,” Potok says. “Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder.” 'One of the most hated minorities?' Intolerance may be difficult to define, but some evangelicals say they have become victims of intolerance because of their reverence for the Bible. The conservative media culture is filled with stories about evangelicals being labeled as “extremists” for their belief that homosexuality is a sin. Their sense of persecution goes beyond their stance on homosexuality. There are stories circulating of evangelical students being suspended for opposing homosexuality, a teacher fired for giving a Bible to a curious student, and the rise of anti-Christian bigotry. A blogger at The American Dream asked in one essay: “Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America?” The reluctance of evangelicals to speak out against homosexuality is often cited as proof they are being forced into the closet. Joe Carter, editor for The Gospel Coalition, an online evangelical magazine, wrote a blog post entitled “Debatable: Is the Christian Church a ‘Hate Group’?" He warned that young people will abandon “orthodox” Christian churches that teach that homosexuality is a sin for fear of being called haters. “Faux civility, embarrassment, prudishness and a fear of expressing an unpopular opinion has caused many Christians to refrain from explaining how homosexual conduct destroys lives,” Carter wrote. Some Christians fear that opposing homosexuality could cause them to lose their jobs and “haunt them forever,” Carter says. “It’s easier to just go along,” says Carter, who is also author of “How to Argue Like Jesus.” “You don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. That’s a powerful word." Edward Johnson, a communication professor at Campbell University in North Carolina, says we are now living in a "postmodern" era where everything is relative and there is no universally accepted truth. It's an environment in which anyone who says "this is right" and "that is wrong" is labeled intolerant, he says. There was a time when a person could publicly say homosexuality was wrong and people could consider the statement without anger, he says. Today, people have reverted to an intellectual tribalism where they are only willing to consider the perspective of their own tribe. “They are incapable of comprehending that someone may have a view different than theirs,” Johnson says. “For them anyone who dares to question the dogma of the tribe can only be doing so out of hatred.” Sprigg, from the Family Research Council, says his condemnation of homosexual conduct does not spring from intolerance but a desire to protect gays from harmful conduct, he says. Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the council, wrote in a council pamphlet that homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are straight men. He also wrote that gay men are also afflicted with a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and mental illness as well. Sprigg says he does not believe homosexuality is a choice and that “personal testimonies" and "clinical experience” show that some people “can and do change from gay to straight.” “Maybe we need to do a better job of showing that we are motivated by Christian love,” Sprigg says. “Love is wanting the best for someone, and acting to bring that about.” 'That's a lie' Potok, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, has little use for the love Sprigg talks about. He calls it hatred, and his voice rose in anger when he talked about the claims by Sprigg and other Christian groups that gay men are more predisposed to molest children and that homosexual behavior is inherently harmful. He says the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t designate the Family Research Group a hate group because they view homosexuality as a sin or oppose same-sex marriage, Potok says. There are plenty of Christian groups who hold those beliefs but are not hate groups, he says. A group becomes a hate group when it attacks and maligns an entire class of people for their “immutable characteristics,” Potok says. The Family Research Council spreads known falsehoods about gays and lesbians, he says, such as the contention that gay men are predisposed to abuse children. “That’s a lie,” Potok says. “These guys are engaging in straight-up defamation of a very large group of people. There are not many things much worse than you can say in America about somebody than they are a child molester.” Potok scoffed at Spriggs’ claim that the council and other evangelical anti-gay groups are victims of intolerance. “That’s whining on the part of people who spend their days and nights attacking gay people and then some people criticize them and they don’t like it,” he says. “That’s pathetic. It reminds me of slave owners complaining that people are saying ugly things about them.” What the Bible says What about the popular evangelical claim, “We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin” – is that seen as intolerance or hate speech when it comes to homosexuality? There are those who say you can’t hate the sin and love the sinner because being gay or lesbian is defined by one’s sexual behavior; it’s who someone is. “Most people who identify as gay and lesbian would say that this is not an action I’m choosing to do; this is who I am,” says Timothy Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book.” Beal, a religion professor at Case Western University in Ohio, says it should be difficult for any Christian to unequivocally declare that the Bible opposes homosexuality because the Bible doesn’t take a single position on the topic. It's an assertion that many scholars and mainline Protestant pastors would agree with. Some people cite Old Testament scriptures as condemning homosexuality, such as Leviticus 18:22 - “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” But other Christians counter by saying they are not bound by the Old Testament. There are those who also cite New Testament scriptures like Romans 1:26-27 - “… Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men. …” Beal, however, says Jesus said little about sex. And the Apostle Paul, who wrote Romans, was probably referring to male prostitution and men having sexual relations with boys, a practice in the Greco-Roman world. “Paul does not understand genetics and sexual orientation the way we understand it now as something much more than a choice,” says Beal. Some evangelicals say Christians can’t change their view of biblical truth just because times change. But some scholars reply: Sure you can. Christians do it all the time. Denying a woman’s ability to preach in church was justified by scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 - “… I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” But many churches have abandoned that teaching - and some scholars say a woman preached the first Christian sermon, when Mary Magdalene proclaimed that Jesus had risen. Slaveholders in 19th century America justified slavery through a literal reading of the Bible, quoting Titus 2:9-10 – “Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything. …” And anti-Semitism was justified by the claims that Jews killed Jesus, such as Matthew 27: 25-26 - “Let his blood be on us and on our children.” Litfin, from Moody Bible Institute, acknowledged that the Bible once sanctioned slavery, but he said that practice was a “cultural expression” that changed over time. Evangelicals who oppose same-sex marriage by citing the Bible are on more solid ground, he says. “Marriage is a universal and timeless institution that God set up for maximum human flourishing. He set it up in the first book of the Bible with the story of Adam and Eve. It is consistent throughout the whole Bible. … Marriage is in a different category than those cultural things.” Public jousts over the Bible's stance on homosexuality rarely change people’s minds. What changes is when people get to know gay and lesbian people as friends and hear their story, says Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible.” “If you open up to that other person genuinely, you basically come to a point where you have to sacrifice them to your ideology or crack open your ideology to make a hospitable place for them,” Beal says. One Christian pastor who is gay says the uproar over the ESPN commentator’s comments can actually be good, because debates help settle moral disputes. “What appears to us as antiquated and prejudicial now was once a disputed issue that required debate,” says the Rev. Richard McCarty, a minister in the United Church of Christ and a religious studies professor at Mercyhurst University in Pennsylvania. Until the debate over homosexuality is settled - if it ever is - there may be plenty of evangelical Christians who feel as if they are now being forced to stay in the closet. Carter, the evangelical blogger, says he foresees a day when any church that preaches against homosexuality will be marginalized. Just as many churches now accept divorce, they will accept sexual practices once considered sinful. “It’s getting to the point,” he says, “where churches are not going to say that any sexual activity is wrong.” soundoff (10,982 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 Next »
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I'm all for disproving god exists, and opening the eyes of christians.
However, we are not going to do that with bad arguments and flawed logic. Let's leave that to the theists.
People keep asking how the christian god would allow pain and suffering. There is an easy answer – it doesn't really matter. If you believe an ETERNITY of bliss or suffering is waiting for you in the next life, why get all bent out of shape over some pain for a few years now.
Think of it like getting a vaccination. You are probably willing to put up with a small injection and a sore spot for a few days to avoid a terrible disease, right? So why would god care if you suffer for a while here if you can earn an eternity of heaven later?
"So why would god care if you suffer for a while here if you can earn an eternity of heaven later?" Exactly, except there is no evidence that heaven or heII exist, so it's more like suffering for a while here for no reason.
@Alias,
some advice, you'll need to first learn Christian doctrine before you can attempt a refutation.
Perfect dodge, Chad!! Don't worry about the actual statement or rebuttal of it!
Keep up the great work for the atheist perspective by showing how stupidly a christian responds!
Start here:
"why would the christian god would allow pain and suffering"
=>see Genesis 3
pain and suffering exist because of the disobedience of man.
so, the questions are:
1. why did God allow man to be disobedient
2. why was the punishment what it was
you'll need to at least understand that much about Christianity to discuss it with Christians.
On the other hand, if you're just on a mocking, name calling trip, then proceed as usual.
"pain and suffering exist because of the disobedience of man."
so, the real questions are:
1. why is god making the rest of us suffer for something we had nothing to do with?
2. how can such a god be considered to be moral and reasonable?
I'll start...Chad has never debated honestly. I don't expect him to start now. For all of his knowledge of the Bible, he has never actually lived in a Christ-like manner, and thusly is a hypocrite.
I have only ever seen one, ONE Christian on these blogs that I can see has come close to the Christian I would emulate: Robert Brown. Chad doesn't come close to even being what I consider a Christian to be. If snark is Christ-like, Chad would win, hands down. If dishonesty is Christ-like, Chad would win, hands down.
Chad should be ashamed of the way he lies for Jesus. Sadly, he doesn't get it. Too proud.
Many Christians (especially Catholics) believe that pain and suffering are gifts from God to allow us to get a taste of Christ's passion. Mother Theresa put it thusly:
"Suffering, pains sorrow, humiliation, feelings of loneliness, are nothing but the kiss of Jesus, a sign that you have come so close that He can kiss you.”
no response to my inquiry Cpt? I'll infer you have none. Thank you.
Bill,
That's what I did for questions I asked you multiple times back on page 84....assumed you just had no response and saw the error of your position.
If there's anything Bill will never do, it is to see the error of his ways. He is firmly on the path to Hell.
You were wrong cheesy. That lengthy thread just played out. I challenged Cpt moments after his post and got no response. I reviewed the thread you're talking about and never saw anyone make any argument about the foundational goodness of gaay marriage. All I saw were diatribes against me having the audacity to question it.
equal rights for all? So no speed limits on slippery slopes?
"I'm all for disproving god exists, and opening the eyes of christians." I just want them to stop electing maniacs who try to pass Christian-sharia laws in my country. I don't even want them to doubt or question, just play by America's rules.
Tom says she knows gaay Christian couples. They just don't believe the tenets that I do regarding gaay marriage. I think that is fine. What I am asking for is an explanation of the tenet on which they hinge their case. I've just never heard anyone make the argument for Christian support of it.
"the foundational goodness of gaay marriage" Why do you hate gay people so much? Do they call to you in the night or something? "Come out, Bill, come out?" You act as if a couple of poufs picking out a sofa is going to bring Jesus crashing down in flames from heaven.
Believers are the ones making the extraordinary claims – they are the ones that need to provide the evidence to support those claims
"an explanation of the tenet on which they hinge their case. I've just never heard anyone make the argument for Christian support of it."
I'm not gay, but it goes about like this: God loves mankind. I am part of mankind. Therefore, God loves me. God loves me, and I am gay. Therefore, God loves his gay children too. You, of course, are an expert on how God doesn't actually love ALL mankind.
Bill, Most slippery slope scenarios are bogus. What do you see gay marriage leading to and what are the associated problems? I don't see how gay marriage affects the rest of us.
Bill,
My questions were honest questions, not diatribes.
First I did respond to your issue of what good gay marriage provides to society. I said for people who are gay that have children marriage can provide a more stable environment. I also pointed out that when the gov't treats people equally under the law that also benefits society as a whole. You responded to neither of my points other that chortling that "gay people are not able to have children", which is not only blatantly false, it is dodging the issue I raised in my honest response that you now frame as a "diatribe".
You also asked how gay marriage can be justified through the tenets of the Catholic church and I honestly asked why it needs to be for which you never responded.
I am very interested in your answers to these questions because either you think Catholic tenets should be the basis for at least some laws in a free society or you should be able to see that though you personally disagree with gay lifestyle, they should be treated equally under the law.
My azzumption, Bill, is that the Captain didn't see your query or didn't care about it enough to answer and did not care what you might erroneously infer from that lack of response. You do realize that even Captains have lives and things to do other than hover by their computers waiting for a moronic question from an idiot that even if answered incredibly would only be crapped all over and lied about? Oh wait, never mind, I doubt you are smart enough to know even that.
@Cheese "so, the real questions are:
1. why is god making the rest of us suffer for something we had nothing to do with?
2. how can such a god be considered to be moral and reasonable?"
=>good questions.
What would Christian doctrine claim?
@ Chad"=>good questions.
What would Christian doctrine claim?"
I have heard many claims of answers for these questions from Christians. Often they contradict each other or contradict other claims from the same CHristian "authority". Needless to say I have not heard any that actually answer the issue.
OK cheesy well enough. First, I only post the Catholic teaching as the background rationale for my argument. I'm perfectly willing for people to reject it and I don't think it should even dominate the political landscape. I am providing it as a template for how I wish someone could respond to my question.
To answer your reply. Discrimination, as you put it, does, in fat help society. We discriminate against people for any number of reasons by withholding privileges from them based on good reason. To base your argument on the complete removal of discrimination does nothing to provide a barrier against slippery slope scenarios that could then employ the same argument and I presume you are against some forms of marriage such as with children, animals or siblings, right?
Again, I'm not advocating Catholic thought become the law. I am saying that Catholic thought has well reasoned positions that inform the teaching. I don't see any of that thought coming from the other side, only a demand for "rights"
Moby Cpt may not care to to engage in a discussion beyond hurling an insult and running away. I accept that possibility.
Santa, I don't see gaay marriage as an entre to a slippery slope. What I am saying is that the argument that there should be no discrimination, if triumphant, can then be used for those slippery slopes. Therefore the cry to end discrimination is spurious. There has to be discrimination or we descend into anarchy. The question is where do we place the line? The argument can be about that, at which point anti-gaay marriage people have a position to defend. But, you cannot base gaay marriage on the elimination of discrimination because even gaay marriage supporter will want some discrimination. Or won't they?
Chad and BD
Christ's teachings are not followed by the main religious organizations. Chad as a non-denominational Christian has a platform to express his views as flawed as they maybe. But Bill, is a devout member of the wealthy powerful RCC you have no right to claim you follow the teachings of jesus, you are not a Christian, you hold onto to the crutch because it lets you escape your crimes and live with yourself.
bill, If you mean discriminate as in recognize a distinction then although I'm not sure how that applies here I agree it is possible that would be something gays would want to retain.
@ Bill "OK cheesy well enough. First, I only post the Catholic teaching as the background rationale for my argument. I'm perfectly willing for people to reject it and I don't think it should even dominate the political landscape. I am providing it as a template for how I wish someone could respond to my question."
Do you advocate outlawing divorce because of Catholic teaching? What other behaviors that people are allowed to do in our free society but go against Catholic teaching do you want our legislators to craft laws against? Condom use? Or do you just argue that gay marriage is an extra special issue that should bend to your religious belief? Of course gay marriage cannot be intermeshed with Catholic teaching....I will ask again....WHY SHOULD IT BE?
@ Bill "To answer your reply. Discrimination, as you put it, does, in fat help society. We discriminate against people for any number of reasons by withholding privileges from them based on good reason. To base your argument on the complete removal of discrimination does nothing to provide a barrier against slippery slope scenarios that could then employ the same argument and I presume you are against some forms of marriage such as with children, animals or siblings, right?"
Yes we do discriminate in limited instances. But what is allowed for one ADULT, is also allowed for every other ADULT. Name something the gov't discriminates against that some adults are allowed to do but others are prohibited from doing? As you said when we discriminate it is based "on good reason" and yet all you provide as a reason to discriminate is religious belief. That is NOT "good reason". Children and animals are not able to "consent" so to use that as a slippery slope example is a non-sequitor and is completely dishonest.
@ Bill "Again, I'm not advocating Catholic thought become the law. I am saying that Catholic thought has well reasoned positions that inform the teaching. I don't see any of that thought coming from the other side, only a demand for "rights"
Yes you are advocating that Catholic though becomes law in this case. You say "Catholic thought has well reasoned positions that inform the teaching" and I couldn't disagree more. Their "thought" is based on dogma. The dogma is not well reasoned and you saying it is, does not make it so. Since you apparently are not wanting the gov't to legislate against contraception and divorce I can only conclude that you think THOSE Catholic positions are not based on sound reasoning, otherwise why wouldn't you advocate for gov't intervention for those situation as well?
BD Are you not afraid that the marriage of gay priests might become a problem? Cardinal O'Brien may have chosen to do so with one of the men he was attracted too if he was allowed to come out of the closet and not discriminate against a group that he was one of because of the dictates of the RCC. I wonder if the popes would agree to marry two of the clergy that lived and loved each other all their lives in the closest as a dying request? Who would that harm Bill?
I've posted this scenario a couple of times ... but have yet to get a solid answer. There seems to be a ton of xtians on this story ... maybe they can do better
Jim is a christian. He has accepted Jesus Christ as is personal savior.
He is a good man, never cheated ( or even thought about cheating ) on his wife.
He has raised two daughters in the faith and they, like him, are up standing believers in faith.
Jim volunteers at a food shelter one day a week and has done this for 15 years.
He is financially secure and could retire today comfortably, but even with this he donates a portion of his personal paycheck to numerous charities consistantly
Everyone likes Jim. Basically he is your model christian.
One day Jim goes the Doctor. The Doctor tells Jim that he has cancer and unless he starts treatment immediately he has only 6 months to live.
Why would Jim choose treatment?
Think about this
Jim is a believer. He knows that heaven is a better place than this current life.
He is financially secure. He has provided for his family. He has 6 months to get all of his earthly affairs in order and to say good bye to his family
This cancer is obviously god's will and god is calling Jim to heaven. Why seek treatment and defy gods will?
I answered this for you a month a go Maynard. Our lives are not our own to discard or even to neglect. We are stewards, of the life and gifts we have been granted for the duration of time God decrees. It is incuumbent on the Christian to recognize the dignity of life from conception unto natural death.
If you are merely trying to construct a parlor word game, that is one thing but you can google the catechism on the dignity of life if you have genuine concerns or feel I have represented Christina teaching poorly.
And Bill you know what you can do with that ..............I know you DO.
Very simple answer. Even a model Christian with a lifetime of belief under his belt is still human and still has at least a partially functioning prefrontal cortex. As such, he has doubt. Combine that with the very basic reason that all people are religious- the fear of death and you get someone who is doubting. Maybe only at a subconscious level, but he is questioning whether or not he really will find eternal bliss awaiting him after the cancer destroys his body. So human instinct to survive kicks in and he chooses to fight to the very end and endure untold suffering for the prospect of a few extra days or months.
In fact, a situation like this is pretty irrefutable proof that even the most religious are not really believers, they are simply afraid.
Maynard,
I'm not a Christian but I don't see a problem with this particular aspect of their belief system. If you say this about disease you would essentially be saying the Christian system requires inaction at any time for anything. They clearly believe that god expects actions and that, depending on the particular sect, either god or the devil has provided challenges. I'm not sure which part about it you find troubling? Or is this a big issue you would apply also to feeding oneself and other daily chores?
Chad/rachel, Bill HS what a TRIP to Grandma's house we go !
Oops ..........forgot ........trough the woods !!!
Well, there's that other story where a man is trapped by rising floodwaters on the roof of his house. "Save me, God!" he cries, and in his heart, he knows God has heard his prayer. Along comes a boat full of rescued neighbors, but he waves it off, shouting "God will save me!" He waits for an hour, and the water rises, and he's being rained on. Another boat comes along and he refuses it, and another hour passes. By now he can't sit down on the roof, and the water is ankle-deep, but when the Coast Guard chopper lowers a chair, he won't get in it, shouting "Don't worry, God's going to save me!" The chopper leaves, and the water washes him off the roof. As the water drags him down, he shrieks "Why didn't you SAVE me, God?" God replies "I sent two boats and a chopper. You wouldn't go."
The correct theological answer is that the diagnosis, not death, is a message from God. Take the chemo, share Christ's pain, and your reward will be more years with your family. You have a duty to the living.
Brother Maynard, I think you need to remember that religious people don't think straight.
They are schizoid delusional victims of brainwashing.
Here you are asking them a question as if you thought they couldn't twist things around to suit them no matter what it was – because that is what they can do very easily. With no rational basis for cognitive processing, they will all interpret and express their madness in individual ways.
In your question, you appear to be assuming that their beliefs are monolithic, yet it is always, always customized, not stratified.
So who, out of the 35 thousand-plus christian sects were you expecting an answer from? Or what? C'mon, bro, you gotta remember these are damaged people we're talking to here. Nothing about their beliefs is worth listening to, for it is all based upon insane bullshlt that doesn't make any sense. You should have argued the point you're trying to make instead of asking questions of crazy idiots.
Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear
these friends.
Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behaviour, each time expecting different results.
Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil," "the devil," "an agent of Satan".
And reality is Grandma is not coming back through the woods!
Peace
@Brother Maynard
I think the interesting thing from this scenario is not whether Jim should start chemo, but instead the consequences of either action. If he doesn't and he dies, many people would see that as a loss and no matter how at peace he was, it could cause people around him to have a crisis of faith (which I doubt is what god wants). On the other hand, Jim does start chemo, he's given 2 extra years of a hard painful life. He loses a lot of money on treatments and other special hospital stuff. He leans on his daughters and wife to take care of him and depending on their (very human ) reactions, it might cause strife within the family. Just getting cancer in general might cause the faithful to doubt amongst them in his family and group of friends as clearly prayers aren't helping cure his cancer. What about the crisis of faith that Jim himself would feel, and right before the end, potentially losing his spot in heaven and going to hell. Jim ends up dying after 2 years instead of 6 months and in that time has destroyed a good amount of what he built as a model christian.
The real question you would have to ask yourself is if Jim, like Job, is a model christian and then horribly tormented and then killed in an agonizing way, what would god have to gain by destroying one of his followers?
For once, Bill Deacon is correct. A Christian would say your life isn't yours to throw away, and you should take a lifeline when it's offered. Christianity, ideally at least, is not a selfish religion.
Chad sez:
"In fact, a situation like this is pretty irrefutable proof that even the most religious are not really believers, "
The EXACT point I was attempting to make.
When push comes to shove ...the religious are NOT belivers
"A Christian would say your life isn't yours to throw away, and you should take a lifeline when it's offered."
And how do you know that chemo is the life line.
What if .. not unlike Job .. this is a test. Jim takes the chemo ... god knows that Jim does NOT have faith in god and punishes him for 2 years of pain dispair and self doubt then takes him. IF Jim had NOT taken the chemo god would have cured him completely via one of his miracles (sp? )
"Or is this a big issue you would apply also to feeding oneself and other daily chores?"
EXCELLENT point ... AND I think taken to an extreme one could apply this.
God cared for the Isrealites in the desert when Moses freed them. These people believed and god came through.
Why don't today's believers do the same thing?
"We are stewards, of the life and gifts we have been granted for the duration of time God decrees."
And getting cancer isn't a clear sign of god saying "times up" ?
One could even say god is being merciful by allowing Jim 6 months to get things totally in order for his family.
God could have just had a bus run over him.
Chad and Bill
For all creationists and ID believers...............IT only takes minutes to figure IT out. No fairy in the sky needed !
New Device Can Extract Human DNA With Full Genetic Data in Minutes
May 6, 2013 — Take a swab of saliva from your mouth and within minutes your DNA could be ready for analysis and genome sequencing with the help of a new device.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130506132100.htm
Chad actually got it, this time. God belief is just a product of primal fear. Well said.
Chad, please don't make accurate comments like this one in the future. We much prefer you to do your normal mode of operation and make christianity look absolutely ridiculous with your standard "arguments" and "apologetics" (lol). Please revert to misrepresenting the facts and lying about the data for your beleifs. We atheists need an example to point to as a demosntration of the pure idiocy that takes over the christian mind.
"In the best laid plans of history
Lie the ruins of the past
And a chronicle of suffering
Shows the mythic pall they cast
To believe is true religion
But to see is truth at last"
– Dr, Greg Graffin
"Religion may be the opium of the masses, but on some people it acts more like PCP."
A group attending a small jewish temple, were having a heated argument.
One elder said that it is our tradition that we recite this prayer while standing to show our reverence to god.
Another elder said that they should say the prayer while sitting to show their submission to god.
after much arguing they decided to ask the eldest of them all.
So they went down the road and asked the village elder.
Should we say this prayer while standing?
"No that's not the tradition".
Should we say this prayer while sitting?
"no...that's not the tradition."
Well what should we do...all we are doing is arguing about it.
"That's the tradition..".
There are lots of Jewish jokes. After a while you see some patterns in the underlying assumptions if you read enough of them.
They are horribly corrupted as a religion, a culture, and even Israel is run by schmucks. Most rabbis are as underhanded and sociopathic as one could wish if you wanted to make them look bad, because they will do all the work.
Their rabbis are as bad as Catholic priests. But, oy!, if you dare to point out their crimes they will scream they are victims.
Bullies playing teh victim card. The Jews do it. The RCC does it. The GOP does it. The rich do it. Most people who commit vicious crimes are also the most likely to pretend that they are the victims and deny any wrongdoing themselves. Oh, yes.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/05/08/stephen-hawking-backs-boycott-of-israeli-academics/2144289/
surprise, surprise...
Irrelevant. Unsurprising. Boring.
Chad seems to be under the mistaken impression that atheists revere Hawkins as much as Chad does. Nope. Most atheists couldn't care less. But then, that's Chad's failing: assuming he knows what atheists really think.
You think he's Richard Dawkins, don't you?
Chad
Yes, well Chad, you seem to have the capacity to find things on the internet that just delight you and Rachel and get great satisfaction on cut, paste and posting those articles; those that refute your BS, not so much.
Chad likes to dance ..............alot !
Geology works Chad !
Isn't it Dawking? Lol, I always do that...and I don't care about either of them...
Perhaps Chad has convinced himself that everybody must view Israel the same way he does and that Hawking, in having a political opinion, must base that opinion on physics, because Hawking is a physicist, or something stupid like that, and that all atheists, who Chad is convinced worship Darwin, Dawkins, and Hawking, should be shocked that the guy has an opinion about Israel. Or something. Chad is seriously twisted. A mentally ill troll who should live in a cave and stay off the internet.
His politics are irrelevant to the work he does as a physicist.
If your pastor/priest/shaman said that he hates Rice Krispies, would your choice of breakfast cereal change?
Who Cares?
Dyslexic doG has a good point. What better evidence that there is no god than the recent news from Cleveland.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
– Epicurus [341–270 B.C.
No, it just proves that the prayers of the Christian Castro Brothers were more pleasing to God than those of the Christian kidnapped girls. God has to choose sides in civil wars all the time so He just sides with the most powerful force.
...evidence? You don't know what evidence is!
After years of speaking with Christians, I find that for most of them, the foundation of their belief boils down to the fact that they can't imagine this world, this universe, being here by accident. It must have been created by something.
I have to ask then, who or what created God?
And if the answer is that God has always existed, then why can't the universe have always just existed?
Before your replies I would comment that a retreat into mysticism is the first refuge of the cornered fool. Also, try to offer something other than a Bible verse.
But whatever's true has always been true. Darwin didn't cast a magic spell that retconned us all into ascended primates, and Galileo didn't flatten the world and move the sun. How is it going to offend or upset God for us to just know the truth?
The most brilliant thing I ever heard said about Genesis was "It can't be true, but God wanted us to hear that story for some reason, so we make sure everyone knows it well."
thanks BC, for something original at least.
Why don't you study some Quantum Physics...pretty scientific..and maybe you can answer your own question...we are not here by accident.
"they can't imagine this world, this universe, being here by accident"
Their imagination is just not able to imagine it being here by accident, so they would prefer to imagine something more amazing, an entlty that has always existed, has no beginging or end unlike anything else in our known universe, can be anywhere and anything and knows everything and can never be wrong even if "he" (because obviously God would have a pe nis, there's no way God has a va gi na, am I right guys?...) wanted to.
So it seems like their imaginations are working just fine, so i'm not sure why they are incapable of imagining a natural origin instead of the supernatural. Maybe it just comes down to the evolved human trait of self preservation, we don't want to just die, we want to live on, be more than what we are, be special, be important, and that requires a God to be important to...
@DebATL
In order to use the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum theory to prove the existence of God, one must remove Omniscience as one of God's characteristics.
If God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then the principle of Schroedinger's Cat (a cornerstone for understanding quantum mechanics) becomes moot becuase there is always an observer.
The cat cannot exist in an uncertain state of flux – neither alive nor dead – because there is always an observer.
"The cat cannot exist in an uncertain state of flux – neither alive nor dead – because there is always an observer."
Oh, it could be worse than that. There are probably multiple layers of realities, in which thousands of versions of each of us exist, and all of them would be visible to God. When you die in a wreck, He shrugs it off because He can still see ten thousand of you doing well, so He doesn't need to interfere. But "you" never die in the wreck, because your consciousness switches to a track where you survived. This happens over and over and one day you are old and die in bed. So He's the omnipresent observer, but He sees the cat both alive and dead anyway.
Doc, that thing about there being an "observer" in quantum physics? Total bullshit.
There is no such observer requirement in physics. At that super-tiny resolution, it is our lack of proper tools that gives rise to this misuse of the language in describing quantum phenomena, not some mystical energy brought forth from using human eyeballs. Nope.
The uncertainty is ours from a lack of proper tools. It is not predicated upon there being someone actually "looking" at a quantum event for there to be missing information. Information that exists and is predictable to a great degree.
This is not a crapshoot where your eyes have magical quantum powers. Just wanted to clear that up because so many people assume that the word "observer" means that an observer is required for these things to happen.
And guess where that leads? Yup. Crazed religious idiots thinking that their sky-fairy must be "observing" every quantum event and thus making it happen.
I hope you can see the seriousness of this problem. Whoever first started using the word "observer" should have been taken out and horsewhipped for using such a wrong-headed misleading word. They were probably religious, donchano.
Best thread we've had in a while.
cheers all!
Since I don't believe in Lucifer, I am not frightened of "it".
"She-hulk" is another matter:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2320807/You-wont-like-shes-angry-Police-hunt-woman-dressed-Incredible-Hulk-alleged-attack-outside-McDonalds.html
http://www.echoofeden.com/bias/lucifer/
what sort of loving god lets 3 young Cleveland girls spend TEN YEARS subjected to terror and torment at the hands of the Christian Castro brothers?
It was god's will and he likes to watch.
Its clearly because of the g@ys or he was in Africa feeding the hungry or too busy watching us m@sturbate.
I wonder how many times they prayed and was Jesus smiling from above?
The same one that stands by as children suffer and die. The same one that doesn't think twice about killing children. Don't take my word for it; read the bible for yourself.
"'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores." – Heinlein
`Maybe God made another bet with Satan and was just testing the girls' faith like He did with Job.
doc: "`Maybe God made another bet with Satan and was just testing the girls' faith like He did with Job."
to me that is just a cop out for when god fails; kindof like the saying "god works in mysterious ways",which is another way of saying "GOD FAILED".
Who are we to question God's plan?
"Who are we to question Gods plan?"
If there are any gods, what evidence do we have that they have our best interests in mind or care about us in any way?
@@Chad
According to you religious nuts, we have free will.
The problem is that, if your god exists and has a plan, then you most definitely do NOT have free will.
So which is it? Do you have the freedom to sin against a god that never appears nor tells you anything?
Or are you safe and warm inside your god's wonderful plan for you? A plan, I might add, that cannot be changed lest your Book of Revelation's series of events could not happen. Only certain things are supposed to happen, right?
Certain things means they cannot be changed. If they cannot be changed you have no flexibility, no free choice or free will.
Either you are a robot for your god, or there is no god. You cannot change anything in physics, in the whole universe, using prayer, prophecy, or any other BS characteristic of religious people.
Robot or your god has no power to change you. Get it?
"Who are we to question God's plan?"
If we are not to question "god's plan", what is the point of prayer?
@HeavenSent... thank you for the following quote. I have since looked more into don Juan (Nagual) and was pleasantly surprised by your unexpected choice of words.
“The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.”
Jesus commissioned us to go out and spread the Gospel, The Good News that the Messiah has come, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father and that we have forgiveness of sins through His blood that was shed on the cross.
He didn't tell us to go around picking certain sins to scream about and run around judging others until they would be petrified to ever try to come to Christ, let alone a church.
We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
We should stick to spreading the Gospel and let God be the final judge.
Just keep you God Spell off of OUR laws.
In other words, keep your delusion to yourself.
When it comes to freedoms, your opinion and gods have no bearing or consideration
I'm still waiting for you folks to produce even a shred of evidence supporting anything you say.
How does one still believe in the resurrection when no other exists in since christardation became popular?
Diane, please stop trying to spread your religion disease. The world would be vastly better without it, and you suck.
Jesus commissioned you did he?
you people are delusional!
Potential mental illness
.
Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear these friends.
Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behaviour, each time expecting different results.
Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil," "the devil," "an agent of Satan".
if god is omniscient, what is the point of evangelizing?
"He didn't tell us to go around picking certain sins to scream about and run around judging others" Right on. You were told to stand ready to witness, not to go out and convert the heathen with your sword. Be worthy of emulation.
Or better yet, become an emu. We need more emus.
Religionists never seem able to address the following fundamental questions when I pose them, and these questions based on real world facts are consistent with my belief that there is no god, and that all religions are nothing more than comforting narratives people choose to believe because they like one of them better than the alternatives.
• There is no evidence whatsoever any being one could reasonably call a god exists, so why should I believe one exists? Because a lot of people believe God or some collection of gods exist? People convince themselves into believing all kinds of stuff that isn't true. If I believed everything someone told me was true my head would explode.
With Christianity all the "evidence" ceased more than 2,000 years ago so now we're just supposed to take the word of people who lived 2000 or more years ago that it really happened. How convenient. Sorry, but that's not good enough. If there were a God and he wanted us to know he exists there would be some kind of evidence, even if it's only statistical evidence of some kind. There is nothing.
• There have been thousands of religions over the course of human history. Many of them are extinct now, but in all cases they had their devoted followers who believed in their gods just as much as Christians and other people believe in their gods today. Many of them have written works that form the basis of their religions.
Studying these various religions one quickly realizes these various narratives have nothing in common universally. If there were a God, why wouldn't all religions incorporate at least some truths about him, such as whether there is one God or a multiplicity of gods such as the Egyptians and the Greeks believed? Furthermore, were I to decide I wanted to believe one of these thousands of narratives, since none of them have any evidence to support them or suggest it's any more correct than any other, what rational process should I use to decide which one I should embrace?
In our present state the five senses control the mind and the mind overpowers the soul. This needs to be reversed. Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride are the five bad boys that keep us from the truth and their oposites should be embraced.
It is obvious that something more than matter exits since you have conciousness. This mind stuff must come from a higher dimension and even beyond that the true home of the soul resides. The human cells are completely different every seven years yet their is something that we perceive as ourselves that never changes. Religions should teach good moral values for the purpose of removing the veil that covers the soul. We should never judge others but only work on ourselves.
"In our present state the five senses control the mind and the mind overpowers the soul." There is no evidence for a soul.
"This needs to be reversed." Why when there is no evidence for a soul?
"Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride are the five bad boys that keep us from the truth and their oposites should be embraced." What part of his comment had anything to do with any of that?
"It is obvious that something more than matter exits since you have conciousness." No it's not obvious which is why there are so many theories on what being concious even means.
"This mind stuff must come from a higher dimension and even beyond that the true home of the soul resides." My goodness, aren't you just the jumpy little moron. Can't stand not understanding something so you just jump to any old random conclusion. I'm sure that's how all the great minds throughout history worked, Einstein just thought one day "You know what? Energy seems like it might be the same as matter going really fast, like light fast or something, quadrupled! No! Squared! Thats sounds about right! Okay, let's publish this!"
"The human cells are completely different every seven years yet "their" is something that we perceive as ourselves that never changes." Yes, quess what, science has shown an actual bioelectric current running in our brains that does not exist post-mortem.
"Religions should teach good moral values for the purpose of removing the veil that covers the soul." Again, why do you deem it so important to have an invisible intangible unverifyable "soul" when there is zero evidence of one?
"We should never judge others but only work on ourselves." Okay, i'm with you on this one, but it's pretty hard to work on yourself when you have all these religious nut jobs screaming about heIIfire and eternal torment in your ear.
Im against Gay marriage because I dont think anyone should go through that
Through what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCBiEIb2asQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drBze2m26qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J7eQMAbWT0
"Random Atheist
Bill, if you were to go ahead and just die in a fire, that would be okay with me. You don't really need my permission."
report this disgusting poster who would enjoy watching xtards burn alive. the boston terrorists clearly expressed their intentions b4 they exploded their bombs. our nazi god-haters do the same. it is pure hate speech. they don't make these threats against jews. contact homeland security immediately and the ADL
really?
First of all, the amount of hate on this blog makes these statements seem boring. Do you have any idea how many times I have been told that I will burn in hell?
Secondly, why would the ADL care if we all threatened christians? They only blacklist anitsemites.
And just so you can sleep tonighht – rest assured that the government does in fact monitor the internet.
Report them for what? What part of the terms of service were violated?
Guys just stop. There is no reasoning with the religious, you will go mad trying.
oh Wow, someone forgot to take their meds today!
"A detached att itude toward the problems of others is not illegal." – John Holbrook Vance
Nazis were/are Christian, faith. Jow do you keep missing this? Is there someplace I should report YOU for willful ignorance and ad hominems? Hypocritical of you, wouldn't you say??
how is this hate, filth?
–watching xtards burn alive. the boston terrorists clearly expressed their intentions b4 they exploded their bombs.
Are you calling yourself a Christard? And no, the Boston Monsters made no threat and gave no warning. Stop watching FOX before it sells you to a circus.
Red Rover............something NEW............you asked ..............faith.................with unicorn .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEowVBEQl88
https://www.zotero.org/colleengreene/items/XW3H99PB
Big Bang fvcking CIRCLE aye faith .
Science
Hey HeroesAre Rare..............deleting more comments aye?
Oh! by the way –
Sam stone, Science and the Doc all of whom think they're pretty sharp............ I've said what I have to say and I will NOT respond to ANY of your juvenile attempts to argue. Got it!
May 23, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Report abuse | Reply
May 24, 2013 at 7:09 am | Report abuse | Reply
Science
HerosAre Rare , faith the peach and chadie too you are so full of IT...............link below if you need help !
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/internet-explorer/internet-explorer-help#internet-explorer=top-solutions
Peace
May 24, 2013 at 7:33 am | Report abuse |
Science
HerosAre Rare...........urls got you science !
May 23, 2013 at 9:42 pm | Report abuse |
science
Test
May 23, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Report abuse |
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/comment-page-111/#comment-2365603
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/comment-page-111/?replytocom=2366231#respond
May 24, 2013 at 7:48 am | Report abuse |
Game over ......faith the peachy one chad too...........god(s) did NOT create US !
NO red horn-y devil either........ NEVER has been one.!
The DINOSAUR ?...............Chomp Chomp !...Evolution WINS hands down...time for the horn-y red devil to get the
HELL out of the way.....................Stem Cell research !
Allosaurus Fed More Like a Falcon Than a Crocodile: Engineering, Anatomy Work Reveals Differences in Dinosaur Feeding Styles
May 21, 2013 — The mighty T. rex may have thrashed its massive head from side to side to dismember prey, but a new study shows that its smaller cousin Allosaurus was a more dexterous hunter and tugged at prey more like a modern-day falcon.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130521152638.htm
PLUS
Better than Comedy GOLD................it is THE PEARLY GATES !.............what a JOKE !
to kevo.bx
Heaven for atheists? Pope sparks debate
By Dan Merica, CNN
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/comment-page-18/#respond
May 25, 2013 at 9:31 am | Report abuse |
faith
Science
to kevo.bx
Agree ...............mama k
A box does not work well for thinking.
Peace
Hey faith/chad... and sally too........Thanks have a great life.
http://www.wecanbeheroes.org/
http://www.caterpillar.com/Foundation
http://www.autismspeaks.org/
http://www.hlntv.com/clusters/salute-troops
https://www.zotero.org/colleengreene/items/5XRFKX8N
Heaven for atheists? Pope sparks debate
By Dan Merica, CNN
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/comment-page-44/#comment-2369235
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/23/the-money-man-behind-atheisms-activism/comment-page-77/#comment-2369249
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/21/who-hears-prayersforoklahoma/?replytocom=2369279#respond
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/19/proofs-of-heaven-popular-but-not-with-the-church/?replytocom=2366421#respond
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/09/rainn-wilson-has-faith-in-life-after-the-office/?replytocom=2359847#respond
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/
Peace
May 25, 2013 at 9:11 am | Report abuse |
May 25, 2013 at 9:16 am | Report abuse |
May 25, 2013 at 9:27 am | Report abuse |
science is a sick dog.................no but science and urls sank the ark aye ?
May 25, 2013 at 5:55 pm | Report abuse | Reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
http://www.unitedway.org/
Later faith have a great life.
Peace
I just wanted to say i was wrong yesterday.
Here is a link that names all kinds of religions that started after Jesus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_founders_of_religious_traditions
So, what was the point of asking the question in the first place?
It doesn't seem to relate to the article.
That is ok Bill ..............the fairy in the sky is wrong OK !!
I've seen Scientology and Elvis-worship begin in my lifetime. Did you know Elvis was the Messiah? True story, apparently.
Bill we aren't your priest.
Bill, if you were to go ahead and just die in a fire, that would be okay with me. You don't really need my permission.
Real BD here. It seems I provoked teh troll to do some research over my comment that there have been no Gods "invented by man" since Jesus. The troll posted several false attempts and this is another. It is a list of religions started since Jesus. Not the same as a God. IN fact one such religion listed is Kopism which is the belief that file sharing is sacred.
I stand by my comment. No Gods invented since Jesus
All gods were invented, by man.
Bill, I'm delighted that you think it's okay to lie for jesus. Keep it up.
@Bill Deacon (real or not),
"No Gods invented since Jesus"
That's kind of nonsensical isn't it. Have there been any Gods "invented" ever, before, during, or after Jesus?
@Bill Deacon,
Or perhaps you mean inventions like Xenu, FSM, or the Raelian Elohim?
If there were a god, he'd be embarrassed to have invented anything that led to offspring such as Bill Deacon.
@Bill,
I'm glad to hear you admit that Jesus is an invented God.
But no new "Gods" since Jesus? Not even Bahá'í?
There have been many Bill.
In WWII, a jeep was accidentally dropped on a S.Pacific island. Several years later, people found the tribe on the island. They had turned the jeep into a god...why?...same reason men make all gods...they did not have a reasonable explaination, so it must be a god.
@Richard Cranium,
Similar to the John Frum movement.
Me II
Exactly...good reference.
Ignorance is the root of all religion.
Bill Deacon
I stand by my comment. No Gods invented since Jesus
....
Do your research Bill.
Richard Cranium
Me II
Exactly...good reference.
Ignorance is the root of all religion.
................
Pretty much the root of it LOL
" No Gods invented since Jesus" Glad you admit Jesus was invented. Maybe there's hope for you yet, or for the person using your name today.
Nobody else is using my name. There is only one of me.
Yes, we are.
I'm not him. I'm the real BD.
That was somebody else.
Will the real Bill Deacon please stand up?
That's me! Ooo! What do I win??
He will stand up as soon as he is done with the chior "selection"
Chin up Bill. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Did a little research. To no one's surprise FSM and Jeeps are merely satirical or ridiculous. Bahai interested me though as I was not familiar with it. From the official international website they claim not a new God but a new messenger of God's word.
Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time. His essential message is of unity. He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion.
I'm also compelled to point out to the glib that my statement means "NO new God's invented sine the time of Jesus" Not that I admit Jesus was invented. You knew that but couldn't resist the dig, I get it.
Thanks Me II! I take it as evidence that people are listening. When I first came to the belief blog I thought it would be a place to dialogue with other faiths, find commonality and clear up bigotry and misunderstanding. Obviously I was wrong but I am still delighted to announce the Gospel, even in the face of such childishness.
I know plenty of intelligent christians, but my problem with Bill is that he says incredibly stupid crap that he should be ashamed of.
Such as?
@Bill Deacon,
Perhaps, I missed it, but what is your postulate supposed to support? If no god has been invented since Jesus, what is that supposed to mean?
p.s. What about Xenu and John Frum?
p.p.s. About FSM and Jeep, why exclude the satirical?
I'm not going to chase rabbit trails to verify the validity of each individual suspect ME. If you make a claim that any of these are God, I'll be glad to explore it with you. Is that what you are doing?
I just think it is interesting that when the argument is given that Jesus is simply another historical iteration of "God" from man's imagination that there haven't been any credible such imaginations in over 2000 years.
FSM is real, mock him at your own peril.
All is worthy of belief, all is believable, to the deranged and ignorant mind. – me
@Bill Deacon
"If you make a claim that any of these are God, I'll be glad to explore it with you. Is that what you are doing?"
Asking non-believers to present a new "God" that they believe in, seems counter-productive at best. For example, FSM seems as real as Yahweh to me.
"I just think it is interesting ... that there haven't been any credible such imaginations in over 2000 years."
I would suggest that this is primarily due to communication, not any Jesus effect. In essence, new religions and new gods crop up to explain the unexplained in the absence of alternatives, however if there is known religion/god available often that one is used or co-opted into the local culture. In other words, either make something up or borrow it from someone else.
This I think fits with that geographic distribution of religions and gods. China-buddhist, India-hindu, Australia-tribal gods, Native American-tribal gods, middle east-abrahamic, African-animist?. The John Frum movement, or cargo cults, are modern day example of this, where isolated communities were forced to explain new phenomena, cargo, without the easy availability of other religions.
However, I'm not going to debate this too vigorously. I'm not fond of rabbit trails/holes either.
Billie TOO !
GOOD NEWS...............faith the peachy one......chad too.......you know all creationists too......... story = truth !
http://www.ibtimes.com/atheists-fight-gideon-bibles-books-christopher-hitchens-richard-dawkins-georgia-state-parks-
1271125
Science books and education TRUMPS the 666 beast and the red horn-y devil !
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/
Have a great life.
Peace
PS...........by the way there has NEVER been a red horn-y devil.
Do a simple search for Prof. Higgs .............the church hates that .
In reference to:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/comment-page-94/#comment-2331859
Here is some of my reading more in the recent past:
“Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, (why) do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms?”
Charles Darwin
http://evolutionisntscience.wordpress.com/evolution-frauds/
http://scienceagainstevolution.info/v11i3e.htm
http://www.icr.org/article/evolution-biologically-impossible/
http://www.icr.org/article/biggest-problems-for-evolution/
Throughout my personal and professional experiences, I have come to the conclusion that even though Evolution/Abiogenesis is the official stand of the Scientific Community, it does not mean it is the prevailing hypothesis nor even personally accepted by scientists as the True Origin of Species/Life. I believe that the Scientific Community adopted Evolution/Abiogenesis as an accepted buffer until it arrived at the True Origin of Species/Life. That way, no one can have control over nor dictate what the Origin of Species/Life is.
Agree, more along the lines of a 'theory with the gaps'
Transitional fossils: ex: Tiktaalik, Ambulocetus, Arhcheoptyrx, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/fossil-evidence.html
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_02
The origin of life on earth is not the same as the origin of species and using a slash does not make your statements accurate, but misleading.
boy Vic did you show up fast.............
Update :
See for yourself below.................The fairy in the sky did NOT create us !!!
From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml
Monkey Math: Baboons Show Brain's Ability to Understand Numbers ..........E = mc2..............(U-Pb) numbers do not lie !
May 3, 2013 — Opposing thumbs, expressive faces, complex social systems: it's hard to miss the similarities between apes and humans. Now a new study with a troop of zoo baboons and lots of peanuts shows that a less obvious trait – the ability to understand numbers – also is shared by humans and their primate cousins.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130503132719.htm
OR.........take a ride on a DINO.
Fossil records are better to read than the nasty bible..................no god(s) required !
Oldest? New 'Bone-Head' Dinosaur Hints at Higher Diversity of Small Dinosaurs
May 7, 2013 — Scientists have named a new species of bone-headed dinosaur (pachycephalosaur) from Alberta, Canada. Acrotholus audeti (Ack-RHO-tho-LUS) was identified from both recently discovered and historically collected fossils. Approximately six feet long and weighing about 40 kilograms in life, the newly identified plant-eating dinosaur represents the oldest bone-headed dinosaur in North America, and possibly the world.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130507124800.htm
The Science Guy takes on creationism
CNN|Added on November 24, 2012
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/11/24/intv-nye-creationism.cnn
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/comment-page-95/#comments
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/07/biden-urges-faith-leaders-to-pressure-lawmakers-on-background-checks/#comments
For every new transitional fossil found creationists will cry that there are now MORE gaps in the record than before. That's like saying that, for every new piece placed in a jigsaw puzzle, two more pieces will be needed to complete it. Utterly ridiculous, of course.
The Dinosaur Valley, Texas hoax of human footprints supposedly being found side-by-side actual dinosaur prints. As though it weren't a simple matter to tell carved prints from real ones which compress layers in the rock. Still, people believe in this kind of thing. Sad!
http://antecessor.hubpages.com/hub/Creationist-Anti-Evolution-Fraud-Exposed-at-Dinosaur-Valley-Texas
Why aren't dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?
Vic: The Scientific Community and the research done by them is the best we have. Even without the fossil record, DNA alone shows Evolution to be correct. Science may not have all the answers to our beginnings but that does not mean a god did it.
"Science is questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may never be questioned."
Yo, Vic, how's that dinosaur saddle workin for ya?
Thought so.
Vic is one who thinks the Flintstones is based off of true history.
For the benefit of the reader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFLk9JS9oZ8
[
Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel, the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best-selling author of more than twenty books and has been interviewed on numerous national TV programs, including ABC, Fox, PBS, and CNN.
http://www.leestrobel.com/Bio.php
]
Strobel's arguments are the dumbest I've ever come across. They are easily refuted by common sense and minimal critical thinking, and there are many, many refutations across the internet. As most "atheists-turned-christians" he never expresses any sensible reason why HE was once an atheist and when he describes atheism, he uses silly strawmen and vacuous "logic." What a waste of time.
So Vic is Chad, eh? Lee Strobel behind the mask. Well, Lee, why show up here? Nobody gives a rip about your lies here.
Not surprisingly, people who "disbelieve" evolution have no idea what the theory actually states or what evidences are solidly in hand.
Vic
I checked out the livks you provided.
They are filled with false a$$umptions, and no actual data they generated themselves.
This is the work of psuedo-scientists, AKA creation scientists.
They are not credible at all as their presuppositions are flawed from the outset, their bias shows through
Do not try to pull the wool over the eyes of actual scientists.
Go back to your virtual bible world...you can't handle the truth.
@Cpt. Obvious,
Well said... obviously.
Atheist turned theist is enough to tell anyone that his opinion is going to be based on pseudo science. I expect that most theists believe the creation story, it goes hand in hand with the belief.
For Vic regarding his shill work for Lee Stroebel: go here and learn:
http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/
And here, Vic:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_doland/strobel.html
And here, Vic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4ot8eyf5qA
Just look at the first frame of Stroebel and you know he's a slick sales guy.
He's got the classic Christian overslicked hair thing and the shallow fist on hand action all going on, and oh that nice new-looking blue shirt that they gotta have. What a con artist. Cover your nose if you have to be nearby.
There can be no case for a creator until the existence of that being is established.
1. Define what your god is.
2. Define what your gods abilities are.
3. Provide verifiable evidence that this being exists.
4. Once existence is established, provide verifiable evidence showing intent and desire to create.
5. Provide verifiable example of a non-created universe for comparison.
It all starts with providing verifiable evidence that your god exists. Everything else is based on that.
We await your evidence.
"Throughout my personal and professional experiences, I have come to the conclusion"
Do tell. I bet you are a rocket scientist with multiple degrees, just like everyone else on the internet. And all by yourself, consulting only primary sources, you have made discoveries which invalidate all of modern geology? Don't be shy; publish it in a scientific journal after peer review. The essence of scientific discovery is replication, and as soon as others duplicate your findings, you will be more famous than Darwin. Hurray for you!
I'm not familiar with Lee Strobel, but is logical reasoning skills are clearly not the sharpest.
Those are two different things, you know. Find me the person who invented football/baseball while you are searching for "True Origin of Species/Life." Or pick me some apples/oranges off the tree. Or shut up/go away.
Again Vic CAN you READ ?
Learning is fun with facts.......................... and facts work when teaching children. VIC.
Atheist Prof. Peter Higgs: Stop calling Higgs boson the ‘God particle’
Professor Peter Higgs said recently that there is no God and so people should stop referring to the theoretical partial that
bears his name as the “God particle.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/08/atheist-prof-peter-higgs-stop-calling-higgs-bosen-the-god-particle/
Pope praises science, but insists God created world updated Thur October 28, 2010
Stephen Hawking is wrong, Pope Benedict XVI said Thursday – God did create the universe. The pope didn't actually mention the world-famous scientist, who argues in a book published last month that the laws of physics show there is no need for a supreme... \
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/28/pope-praises-science-but-insists-god-created-world/
Science
Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says updated Tue May 17, 2011
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen Hawking said in a newspaper interview this week. "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when...
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/17/heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-hawking-says/
And where did the people in the land of Nod come from?
Cpt. Obvious
Strobel doesn't come up with his arguments by himself, he gets them from interviewing prominent Christians like William Lane Craig. If you want to criticize him criticize his ready acceptance of such wanting arguments. He's either not a very deep thinker, or he's seen the opportunity to write popular books to Christians, which he has, to his great profit.
Oh, I'm certain that they are ridiculously stupid arguments from other sources, but they're still stupid. I don't think Craig has used anything truly original, either, has he? Craig is just a master of topic organization and empassioned delivery.
Go to is Obama the Antichrist scoops.com see small TV. Jesus said his whole name in Hebrew, the look in your bibles. or...Is obama gay...3 lovers murdered...or...u tube New world Order. or u tube Obama saying I am a muslium =Amegetion...Where people start going against Gods laws, and we are seeing Muslims kill CXhristians, just like the Rev. in Iran = Amergetion
" is Obama the Antichrist " You mean, has he become so wildly popular that people actually consider him the new Messiah and are removing Jesus' picture and image from churches and replacing them with Obama's? This is only partly true; many Republicans DO call Obama "The Messiah." Google it if you think I'm lying. But his popularity is nothing like the prophecy of the Biblical Antichrist, as you know. Get help; you're a raving lunatic.
Are you ill? You seem irrational. Did you forget to take your anti-psychotic meds for the last few months? What is Amergetion, rhonda?
Stop doing research at imanidiot.com.
Wow, someone failed English class.
–Jesus said his whole name in Hebrew, the look in your bibles. or...Is obama gay.
Jesus' name in Hebrew is "obama gay?" Not in any Bible I ever heard of. Just shut up.
Anyone who believes Obama is the anti-Christ or even a Muslim is too dumb to be allowed out without supervision.
skytag: You understood that? I know 5 year olds who write better than rhonda.
Our environment creates us – some name their environment as god –
Our environment animates us, as we in turn animate our environment –
Those who establish a continuity with their environment, will excel –
Those who do not establish a continuity with their environment, will fail –
The atheists exist in their environment, as the religious exist in their environment – but the environments overlap –
Your decision making processes, will be constructed through comparison – comparison is the key to establishing perception –
Because of your decision making process, you will so perceive – you will perceive your environment – your environment that creates you –
Because of what you consume (physical / mental), it will make you, who you are – animated by your environment
Because of who you are, you will perceive, where you are, in Space and Time – animating your environment –
The religious environment is populated with god/gods and satan, and heaven, and hell, and other religious tenets. –
The atheists environment is not populated with god/gods and satan, and heaven, and hell, and other religious tenets. –
All the rest of the environment is the same for both
Thus, since the environments overlap, we all are affected by others' perceptions –
And too, we are affected by others' environments –
To co-exist, there must be toleration of other perceptions, and environments –
To co-exist, religions should not cause harm (physical or mental), or dictate policy, to non-religious –
And too, non-religious should not cause harm (physical or mental), or dictate policy, to religious –
Perceive beyond your environment – there is much common ground, and very minute actuality of differentiation –
– perceive the environment –
And you are full of SCOTUS poo poo. You have enough "free will" to be saved. Any more is a waste. God is efficient.
Atheist: "I just gave $50 to doctors without borders because they really do help those in need that don't have access to medical care otherwise and it's the right thing to do"
Christian: "I just gave $50 to doctors without borders because they really do help those in need that don't have access to medical care otherwise because it's the Christ thing to do"
See? You guys are so close already! Just agree to drop the reason for why you choose to be moral agents in this world, for the reason matters little when compared to the results you get from cooperation.
"God is efficient." lol!
"Hey, i'm really mad at these humans who aren't doing what I want, I think I'll get rid of them and start over. Now let's see, most efficient way to do that... Hmm, quick disease spread? Nah, to icky. How about a snap of the fingers and down they go? Nah, too easy.... I got it! I'll drown the entire planet for over a month including all those millions and billions of other creatures who have done nothing but exactly what I designed them to do!! Yeah! Now that's something an efficient vindictive p r i c k would do!!!"
If He hadn't of done it that way, THINKER, some idiot would have come up with the idea of more than one human race and use it for the basis of racism.
"If He hadn't of done it that way, THINKER, some idiot would have come up with the idea of more than one human race and use it for the basis of racism."
You can't be this stupid so I will just assume you are troll.
ol??
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
To all wasps,
Lazy and nutso?? Look it up yasef. Who made me yer n*i*g*g*e*r*???
This is a very misleadingly ti.tledargument as it has nothing specifically to do with Christians' as a group or that religion as any sort of 'minority'. Christians remain the majority religion in the US and it is only because a large section of Christians support gay rights that the pro-gay rights position is now a majority. This article is really about "How people, many of whom are evangelical Christians, who want to restrict gay rights and provide misinformation to gay youth, have become increasingly unpopular in the face of modern scientific evidence." But that doesn't make a very catchy ti.tle..
I think you could make it catchy-
"Americans turning towards reason and understanding: Bigotted sub-groups becoming unnacceptable"
Catchy and with a positive outlook.
@BRC, yep, that's a nice improvement on the original.
The original is a great ti*tle. It made me skip the article. Christians have ALWAYS been a minority. Narrow path, get it??
"Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
report sambo, anvil breath and the other nazi terrorists for their hate speech, threats of violence and terrorist behavior.
NOW
report me to jeebus.
You can report sam, the rest of us have no issue with him using free speech on an anonymous blog.
Keep your fantasies alive though, you only look kookier by the post and it provides humor.
come on, faith.....jeebus is a-waitin'.......heaven is within reach......
Dear FBI, please take a good long look at the irrational and probably dangerous person posting as 'faith.' We are fairly certain that she has fertilizer and a pressure cooker. We have already seen a lot of the fertilizer.
it's an easy litmus test to see if you are a Nazi Terrorist. First, do you swear fealty to the bible and swear to do what your white priest tell's you the bible commands, even if that command is to kill civilians? Good. And second, do you swear fealty to the Church, the protector of the bible and Christianity and will you be willing to do anything in it's defense, even give up your close relatives and family if they turn against the Church? Good. Then you are a Nazi Terrorist.
lol??,
Church is not a proper noun in the KJV. Understand??
This is easy. Why are christians becoming a "hated minority"? Because so many lack the ability to apply their beliefs in their own lives and leave other people alone! I support freedom of religion, and agree that everyone should be able to decide how (or how not) to apply their unique beliefs in their lives. The problem is that many (most) christians feel the need to make others apply those beliefs as well. Freedom of religion means you get to pick how you live – not how I live. Mind your own 40 acres and stop trying to legislate your beliefs, and watch how quickly people stop hating religion.
Mr. HogNwarts,
Yer gubmint god has more power than most Christians believe possible. You know 'bout super and turbo chargers??
when faced with reasonable arguments I just throw out some incoherent bible babble because we christians can't let sane talk like yours go unanswered!
Help, I stuck a turbo charger up my nose. Save me Jesus.