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May 11th, 2013
10:00 PM ET
My Take: ‘Gay Christian’ is not an oxymoron
By Justin Lee, Special to CNN (CNN)–In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all. My nickname was "God boy," and I was known for regularly preaching at my friends about social issues of the day. I dismissed their objections - and accusations of homophobia - as intolerance for my faith. "I'm just telling you what God's Word says," I'd argue. Years later I realized my mistake. What my peers most objected to wasn't my beliefs - it was my condescending attitude. I debated and preached when I should have listened. I thought that stating my position loudly and unyieldingly was a sign of strength. In the process, I alienated my friends. I'm still an evangelical Christian, but one thing is now crystal clear to me. American evangelicals' bad reputation isn't just because of what we believe. It's mostly because of how we behave. When ESPN commentator Chris Broussard was criticized for saying that openly gay NBA player Jason Collins was “openly rebelling against God,” some evangelicals argued that conservative theological views are no longer tolerated in America. Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter But they're missing the point. Broussard's language didn't just express a religious view about sexual morality; it referred to gay people in ways that were dehumanizing, reducing all gay people's lives to a single sex act. Other outspoken Christians routinely say even worse things, comparing gay people to pedophiles, for example. No one is immune from criticism in a free country with diverse beliefs. But if Christians feel particularly singled out at times, I'd argue that our perceived lack of empathy for others is largely to blame. I can often test a Christian's level of empathy by offering a single admission: When I was 18, I realized that I'm gay. Empathetic Christians are typically intrigued by such a statement, even if they also question how a conservative Southern Baptist could also be openly gay. They want to know about my struggles, how my family and church responded, and whether I ever feel my faith and sexuality are at odds with one another. I love these questions, because they show that the other person genuinely sees me as a human being. But far too often, Christians respond not with curiosity and questions but with politics and preaching. They quote Bible passages at me, make assumptions about my faith, or tell me why they’re opposed to same-sex marriage. I'm no longer a person to them; I'm a symbol of a culture war. A battlefield. And when I don't want to be treated that way, they assume I'm turning away because I didn't really want to hear the truth. This kind of behavior is why so many of my LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) friends want nothing to do with the church. But it's not only them. In my book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," I share the story of Cindy, a conservative evangelical mom whose life was thrown into turmoil when her son told her he was gay. This wasn't a political question for Cindy; it was a personal one. But the dehumanizing rhetoric about gay people she heard from the pulpit made her afraid to talk to anyone at church about her son's sexuality. Christians are not a monolithic group. I know many empathetic Christians, including many who speak up regularly for their LGBT brothers and sisters. CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories The loudest megaphones do not speak for the rest of us, but they are still loud, and legion. To them I say: Gay people are not an issue. We're people. Some of us are Christians, too. And if it disturbs you that I refer to myself as both gay and Christian, I invite you to take the time to get to know me, and read what I write. You don't have to agree, and you might think I’m a sinner, but at least you’ll see me as a human being. Baptist minister and author Tony Campolo quips that Jesus entreated Christians not to "love the sinner and hate the sin," but to "love the sinner and hate your own sin." Jesus saved his harshest words for the self-righteously devout and chose the outcasts and sinners as his closest friends. Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Justin Lee. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor’s note: Justin Lee is the Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network and author of
Dehumanizing? Sin is not dehumanizing! We are all sinners. Being a Christian is a constant struggle. There is evil in the world tempting us every day. Chris Broussard was saying that the act was a sin. Just as the act of adultery is a sin. Christians are taught to hate the sin and not the sinner. And the Bible says that one sin is not greater than another. And that sin cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Thank God we have Jesus. He is the only way in. We are all sinners, Christians and non-Christians. So fight the good fight brothers! Believe in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will change your life!
Where in the Bible does it say to hate the sin and love the sinner?
"Christians are taught to hate the sin and not the sinner. "
Another illiterate Christian. Gandhi said that and he was a Hindu, it's not in the bible.
Thank God we have Jesus. He is the only way in
-----–
You must thank your lucky stars every day, that God placed you in an area of the world where you had access to christianity, and would be able to learn who Jesus is. Many of your human brothers and sisters in this world have no access to christianity, and don't know who Jesus is. I guess they are out of luck. Too bad for them God opted to place them in that particular corner of the world.
What I've always wondered is why do people feel they are accountable to their diety for someone else's behavior.
Actually, it's just plain fun to be vigilantes for Jesus.
Wondering,
There are teachers. There then must be the taught. How many taught will become teachers? How many teachers will refrain being taught the newness of one's ever evolving teachings?
Gubmint group think.
Wondering, Christians only sew His seeds of truth. Only Jesus can water a rock.
"Only Jesus can water a rock."
I watered a rock just yesterday while hunting.
HeavenSent
" Christians only sew His seeds of truth."
Is that anything like threading cranberries and popcorn on a string for decorations?
Or do they just sew those stickery burrs to their hair-shirts or something...?
Stop trying to save Christianity from the Bible. It was an abomination to God in the Old Testament and it's an abomination today. it destroys the family unit. God is the same yesterday today and forever.
Please explain, in detail, how it "destroys the family unit". Additionaly, please tell us all exactly how anyone being gay affects you directly.
Which "God" did you have in mind? There have been so many...
.., being G-ay is what you own. Sewing His seeds of truth is what Christians are suppose to do so you don't fry for listening to satan's lies. We sew. His seeds fall on rock. Only Jesus can water you.
HeavenSent,
Sorry you missed this. Hypocrisy Test:
How many Christians who have divorced and remarried have you told to get a divorce again because they are living in ADULTERY?
See..............MOM AND DAD DID IT !!!
Scientists Identify Why Some Fathers Are Left Holding the Baby
Mar. 12, 2013 — A century old mystery as to why, for some animals, it's the father rather than the mother that takes care of their young has been cracked by researchers at the University of Sheffield.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312121842.htm
I wonder if "gay Christians" are also advocates of African-Americans in the KKK, or Jews in the National Socialist movement? I can think of no more flagrant act of mental retardation, then to BE a "gay Christian"!
You could leave the word "gay" out of your last sentence and get closer to the truth.
I can answer that one for them. Christianity is a stance on what diety exists if any do. It is not a hate group, much like Islam is not a terrorist organization. I am not trying to argue the point that any dieties exist, I will however argue the point that you either have been personally injured or have bought into the media hype.
Wondering,you listen to satan's lies too much. Jesus created All. He sent us a manual how to live life on earth in human form. It's called the Bible. Jesus had Holy Men scribe His truth. Jesus is the author. In the Bible, He explains His truth about Life and the hereafter. Have you read His letter to you so you can save your soul from being blotted out for eternity?
" Jesus had Holy Men scribe His truth. Jesus is the author. In the Bible, He explains His truth about Life and the hereafter. Have you read His letter to you so you can save your soul from being blotted out for eternity?"
That's why there were other books that were written by Holy Men about Jesus that were left out of the bible proves you're wrong.
fred, Jesus said we should share cats. I know which end I like best. You can have the rest.
Amen
hum?!...yes, it is an oxymoron....just like the whole article itself. Nice try guy.
Meanings of word oxymoron, if some one did not know.
Word Oxymoron.
Vowel o identifies quantification of a matter,
Letter X is invented to show unification, meaning tide to, coupled with.
Letter y represents will or desire of a noun.
Letter M represents, essence of choice of a person or a matter.
Vowel O identifies quantification of a matter.
Letter R identifies path or the way of a noun or a matter,
Vowel A identifies established or quantified in path.
Letter N always appears to indicate establishment of a matter or a noun.
Oxymoron, The one enshrined or quantified, established in secular ism, self center ism, and he is none other than a hindu atheist, ignorant self centered, using cover of religion to justify his hindu secular ism, self center ism,
Oxymoron= moron=pig= self centered = atheist = Lucifer-secular = self centered, one in hindrance to truth absolute, a hindu, other wise known as criminal.
Gary Busey at his best.
M is for the mental illness of religious people
O is for the oppression religion brings
R is for the repulsiveness of religious beliefs
O is for the oddity of their thoughts
N is for the nasty they all embrace
If somebody hasn't reported you to the proper authorities I'll do it now.... you are definitely one to be watched by the FBI/Homeland Security.
Go bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S!!, stay cute and cleaver, you're still going to fry if you don't smarten up and learn how to save your soul from being blotted out. NO eternity for you if you don't repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more.
Too much for you?
"ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more."
That's why you've been sinning all over this blog, what a hypocrite.
The Bible is NOT God's Word. It is man's word. Man wrote the Bible. Man compiled the Bible (and chose to leave some gospels out. Why?). Man edited the Bible. Man translated and interpreted and reinterpreted the Bible again and again over nearly 1500 years. Man is inherently flawed; therefore, the Bible is inherently flawed. You are preaching man's word, not God's Word.
keith, calm down. your anger and your error exceed all known knowledge.
Jim, Keith is exactly correct. Sorry.
anger? – did anyone read anger from keeth's post?
Another socie victim.
It is twisted to justify hindu Mithra ism, racist savior ism by corruption of truth absolute by hindu atheist, crook self centered to hind fool humanity in to hinduism, racism.
mad; do not apologize, research.
mad; do not apologize, research
----
I have. Now it's your turn. You'll find that humans wrote the bible, every single word.
of course, men put down in written form those words inspired by their God
men put down in written form those words inspired by their God
---–
How do you know? Who told you?
Except, of course, that practically every scholar dates most of Paul's letters (which comprise the bulk of the N.T.) at approximately 15-20 years after Christ's death, which would make a fabrication of the names, places and events virtually impossible to avoid immediate, contemporary ridicule.
the men that wrote those words and gave credit to their Creator. and what man today would not take credit for the greatest literature ever penned? "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching etc." 2 Tim. 3:16,17
the men that wrote those words and gave credit to their Creator
---
LOL!!!!! Yes, of course. Look up the definition of the term "conflict of interest" and get back to us. You're a hoot!
hey guys, I only have a few more minutes so if you really want a serious and sincere discussion let me know but if just an argument then not interested but I will check back later and in the A.M. and look forward to sharing with you that which convinced me to change from the reasoning you share to the faith and hope I would like to share with you. thanks again, and peace. j
"greatest literature ever penned"
That alone is an oxymoron. Obviously someone has never read his bible or he wouldn't be saying such crazy stuff.
"hey guys, I only have a few more minutes so if you really want a serious and sincere discussion let me know but if just an argument then not interested but I will check back later and in the A.M. and look forward to sharing with you that which convinced me to change from the reasoning you share to the faith and hope I would like to share with you. thanks again, and peace. j"
Topher's leaving for work again.
hoot? resorting to childishness? I thought you were an educated person but I guess I was wrong. as I said I will check back later.
james
hoot? resorting to childishness?
----
Oh, relax, it means you're funny! You agreed that men wrote the bible, suggested they were inspired by God to write what they did, and the reason we know these men were inspired?.......they told us so! That's funny. Tomorrow, you'll tell us the bible is true, because it says so in the bible.
one more time since i said I would come back and I know it is wasted words but I know you do not understand but those of you who are wishing the demise of religion will get your wish. it is coming and I believe that only because of prophecies in the Book you condemn. you are living in a time like no other in history so "keep on the watch" since "there will be great tribulation such as the world has never seen" and unless you do more than "call" yourself a Christian" see Matt.7:21-23 then there is nothing I can do since.the religions of this world have already done their damage and they are about to be called to account. oh and please do not think I am about to do something, that work belongs to a much greater force thanks for the laughs. j
@james
You said, "one more time since i said I would come back and I know it is wasted words but I know you do not understand but those of you who are wishing the demise of religion will get your wish."
Unfortunately, there will always be a large section of the population that is simply unable to comprehend anything more complex than "goddidit". There will very likely still be religion and superstition around, hundreds, if not thousands of years from now. Religion will change, but the pool of sheeple from which to draw followers is deep and wide, and will remain that way.
You said, "it is coming and I believe that only because of prophecies in the Book you condemn."
Your fairy tale has been used to make the same failed predictions for 2 millenia.
You said, "you are living in a time like no other in history so "keep on the watch" since "there will be great tribulation such as the world has never seen" and unless you do more than "call" yourself a Christian" see Matt.7:21-23 then there is nothing I can do since."
Quoting your fable is only effective for the dimwits that actually believe it is anything but a fable.
You said, "the religions of this world have already done their damage and they are about to be called to account."
Oh, can they? When is christianity going to be held accountable for the evil that has been done in its name?
You said, "oh and please do not think I am about to do something, that work belongs to a much greater force thanks for the laughs."
Don't worry, I don't expect you to do anything. You seem to be more of the praying type, and not someone who actually does something that has a positive effect.
lin; unlike you who copies everything i left and has no other input except to criticize what others say. I have seen your comments and you are easy since nothing is easy.
Christians don't hate the sensually trodden upon. They feel sorry about this world's W h o r e d o m ways and many ever losing sight, lusting in the animalistic pleasures of man with man and woman with woman. Their intellectually invented sensualistic escapades come on as being threatening towards many a child's upbringing.
True, mostly all Christians see with little perceptivity regarding social trends around human animalisms of sensualist variations. For the W h o r e d o m ways of trendy animalistic perversions within mankind are wrought full of the depraved and lost ones seeking ever the instinctual rather than the mental bridges within the mutually conscientious kindred's of high social moorings. The W h o r e d o m domains of mankind will always be among us. Live with it rather than live against it.
This is your brain on religion. Any questions?
LL is the belief blog pseudo intellect just laugh at their stupidity and move on.
Hey LL........you like thre red devil and the horn don';t you ?
Uh oh- he threw up his word salad again – clean-up on page 13 – stat.
Definitely what the results of projectile-vomiting alphabet soup would look like.
the lone line I disagree with be the last as The Word and Writer of The Word of God and the Creator of The Word of God all indicate this lifestyle and those who demand it will be removed at a future time and all we can truly hope for is to live at the time past this event and be those who are truly blessed as those who are called Christians in the fullest sense and without hypocrisy in name and action.
See..............MOM AND DAD DID IT !!!
Scientists Identify Why Some Fathers Are Left Holding the Baby
Mar. 12, 2013 — A century old mystery as to why, for some animals, it's the father rather than the mother that takes care of their young has been cracked by researchers at the University of Sheffield.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312121842.htm
See..............MOM AND DAD DID IT !!!
Scientists Identify Why Some Fathers Are Left Holding the Baby
Mar. 12, 2013 — A century old mystery as to why, for some animals, it's the father rather than the mother that takes care of their young has been cracked by researchers at the University of Sheffield.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312121842.htm
Atheism is an oxymoron! We serve an awesome God. Thank you Jesus!!!
It would really help to know what an oxymoron is before you make a fool of yourself like that.
hy would anyone be so incredibly IGNORANT of psychiatry to pick a name to prove they know nothing about it?.
uh, methinks you should look up the definition of oxymoron, and maybe research how to actually use it
2 funny
Hah! Typical illiterate fundamentalist doesn't even know what the word means.
"Atheism is an oxymoron! "
And xtians wonder why non-believers think they are ignorant.
Uh maybe because they are?
oxymoron – a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness)
My favorite one is "Fresh Frozen Jumbo Shrimp" 🙂
Brother Maynard, enjoy those scavengers that clean the ocean floor while you can.
"Jesus is God" is an Oxymoron...
Not oxy, just a moron.
To some...
The A&A tent is big enuff fer you.
Still . . . having . . . trouble . . . making . . . sense . . .
Yes, and very well put! The battle for real Christianity is constant because humans have an innate need for witch hunting and hen pecking in it's most natural sense. If this issue is ever put to rest, another one will crop up to overtake society and test the faithful at heart. But Christ admonishes us to overcome the natural self in order to enter the Kingdom. Kind of puts the weight of responsibility on those who accuse over the accused, doesn't it?
R Burns Jesus-Barbie is "Don't Be How I Made You" Jesus.
Because your imaginary friend always shares your opinions.
Not when the accused are world class HYPOCRITES who don't practice what they preach but attack others.
Christians are just the salt. The rest are dead meat.
Come here and say that, lol-tard. I'll gladly kill you in self-defense and celebrate your death, you filthy piece of shit.
You lie Observer, it's you unbelievers that attack believers all because you love your sinful ways.
HeavenSent,
Don't be so brainless as to accuse others of lying when you have NO FACTS.
Hypocrisy Test:
How many Christians who have divorced and remarried have you told to get a divorce again because they are living in ADULTERY?
Practice what you preach? Get serious.
I'm afraid your assertions are correct, "Observer". "HeavenSent", in fact, has no facts.
I'm coming to the conclusion that g-ay folks, thou nice, are the most gullible of humanity that satan get's their attention at a very young age ... and they start their walk in his lies.
"I'm coming to the conclusion that g-ay folks, thou nice, are the most gullible of humanity that satan get's their attention at a very young age ... and they start their walk in his lies."
That's why it's actual heterosexual Christians that are supporting gay marriage.
FACTS are Observer, I've answered you numerous times on your exact misquoting of the same scripture. You lie because you want to lie.
HS, No comparison really – religion is a choice where they know they have to indoctrinate early. Why don't religions allow children to exercise the free will they tout so much and let the children research and choose a religion later?
fred, those young Christians, like you, never read or comprehended Jesus' truth.
"FACTS are Observer, I've answered you numerous times on your exact misquoting of the same scripture. You lie because you want to lie."
No, the proven liar on this blog is you.
HeavenSent,
Why do you LIE so much? You said you've answered this many times, so what was it?
How many Christians who have divorced and remarried have you told to get a divorce again because they are living in ADULTERY?
Number please and SKIP THE LIES.
In Santa we trust, I'll play your indoctrination game. It's better to be indoctrinated with Jesus' truth that allows you to live on earth as it is in heaven, then to onto eternity with Jesus, than to be indoctrinated with satan's lies that will get you to fry. No eternity for you.
"Why do you LIE so much? You said you've answered this many times, so what was it?
How many Christians who have divorced and remarried have you told to get a divorce again because they are living in ADULTERY?
Number please and SKIP THE LIES."
Lying for Jesus is a Christian trait, fred, Chad, lol?, HeavenSent, etc do it all the time as well as many others.
Observer, there isn't a Christian I know personally that doesn't tell another when they sin (no matter what the sin is) their soul is in jeopardy of frying. What's your point, besides believing "g-ays" are the only sinners in town?
Spot, cough Tommy Tom. I've proven in my life telling truth is not easy to the liars. You'd rather join the lying crowd to get your way which is all vanity in the end.
HS, Even if eternity were an option, how do you imagine it to be? Sitting on clouds with no responsibilities, no work, plenty of food and drink. Christian rules presumably but which sect? Will we age? Do we stay at the age we die or does skyfairy have a reset button and if so to what age?
HeavenSent,
So in spite of MANY MANY TIMES telling gays how bad they are for their "abomination", you have NEVER picked on fellow Christians for their TEN COMMANDMENT sin of living in ADULTERY.
It's all pick-and-choose HYPOCRISY and you keep proving it over and over.
Here is your theology quiz for today. Make all the answers that apply:
1. What did Jesus call an abomination?
A. Gays
B. Divorce
2. What did Jesus say would keep you out of heaven?
A. Being gay
B. Being affluent
C. Praying and practicing your faith in public.
B and Greed.
And yes, the answers are all but gay. Jesus had nothing much to say about gay, but he was very down on divorce, affluence, and practicing your faith in public.
Yes, Christian hypocrisy is truly amazing.
Rollo Tomasi,
After 15 minutes, you still can't find a Christian who can answer the questions. Pathetic. Try again later and keep at it until you can find one who has read the Bible.
So what are the answers?
1. B
2. B, C
Rollo Tomasi, the gays were hiding in cave closets and afwaid to approach Jesus without a mob for their backup.
Observer, what is pathetic is that you unbelievers were conditioned to believe Jesus is made up by politicians to keep the masses peaceful, when in reality, you were conditioned not to believe by antichrists and you are too foolish to accept that you are allowing your soul to burn.
"you are too foolish to accept that you are allowing your soul to burn."
Based on your comments you don't know the bible very well, the one who will be burning in hell will be you.
HeavenSent
"Observer, what is pathetic is that you unbelievers were conditioned to believe Jesus is made up by politicians to keep the masses peaceful"
Total NONSENSE. Many nonbelievers got that way BECAUSE they read the Bible.
Try again. That was pathetic.
Oh HS is here – she still thinks no states have adopted gay marriage via popular vote. So misinformed. So sad.
Rollo...lets take the guess work out of it and go straight to the source: Mark 10:1-10
10 Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,[b] 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
You'll note that Jesus makes it clear that divorce is tantamount to adultery. You will also, note, however, the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman–no ambiguity there.
Were your reading skills better, Conversation, you would not that I did not mention gay marriage.
Rollo...didn't miss what you said...just took what you implied about being gay to the next logical step (that God approves of gay marriage).
A Conversation,
Why do you pick on gay marriage when there's little chance you agree with God's position on marriage like when he FORCED marriage on people?
@Observer...I don't pick on gay marriage–just responding to Rollo. Truth be known, gay marriage doesn't cause me to lose sleep, and I don't buy into the argument that it will the death of us all–and certainly not the death of my marriage. I see it as a sin just like taking God's name in vain (and I'm certainly guilty of that one).
And, I'm trying to recall where God forced marriage on anyone (not saying it didn't happen–just can't think of an example–perhaps you can refresh my memory and I'll respond).
A conversation,
The Bible FORCES marriage onto slaves, women who have been r@ped, men who's brothers died leaving a widow, etc.
Ah, I see–you lack cultural historical reference. For example...
Exodus 22:16, 17 reads: “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.”
In ancient Isreal, se.xual intercourse was marriage.
This verse tells us that ancient Israel had no concept of pre-marital se.x. Having s.exual intercourse with a virgin was an act of marriage, unless her father intervened. In other words, se.xual intercourse was marriage.
It is simply impossible to equate our current cultural understanding of marriage with with Old Testament Law and culture (particularly since it is not applicable, generally speaking, under Christian theology).
A conversation,
I see you and God lack compassion.
– Deuteronomy 22:28 “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and r@pes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels (about 1¼ pounds) of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.” [NIV]
ZERO CHOICE. The marriage is FORCED on the girl and her rapist. No divorces, no matter how badly the "seducer/rapist" treats his victim. He can beat her or do whatever he wants.
Can't get much more HEARTLESS than that.
"In ancient Isreal, se.xual intercourse was marriage.
This verse tells us that ancient Israel had no concept of pre-marital se.x. Having s.exual intercourse with a virgin was an act of marriage, unless her father intervened. In other words, se.xual intercourse was marriage.
It is simply impossible to equate our current cultural understanding of marriage with with Old Testament Law and culture (particularly since it is not applicable, generally speaking, under Christian theology)."
They also had no understanding of sexual orientation or homosexuality.
mama k, you posted "Oh HS is here – she still thinks no states have adopted gay marriage via popular vote. So misinformed. So sad."
Question: What election was held last week? LOL. Note, all democrats are allowing you to fry, they only care about the god they worship.
fred, Notice it was a man with a woman.
My take: intelligent christian is an oxymoron (just like "intelligent" design by an imaginary magic being).
It's so amusing how people like Cheney, Portman, this author etc. only accept gays when it's in the family.
But that is how the bigotry will end for most: when they have to look at an actual loved one and decide if they are really as evil as their church has been propagandizing.
I agree, but many of us who accept gays don't have gays in the family.
Hmm. And yet, Charles Darwin was an Anglican pastor. Copernicus was a Catholic canon. Gregor Mendel was an abbot. James Maxwell was an evangelical. Max Planck was an elder in the Lutheran church. And that's only a very short list of very prominent scientists who were also devout christians.
You might want to rethink your bigotry.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, MagicPanties bought into the lie that he/she is the sharpest blade in the drawer.
"Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, MagicPanties bought into the lie that he/she is the sharpest blade in the drawer."
That's why you just proved MagicPanties is correct.
HeavenSent is not the sharpest bulb in the elevator short of a combination plate.
Miss HavershamSent does hit the nail right between the eyes, though.
fred, allow Jesus to explain His truth to you.
Isaiah 5:20
Amen.
Tim the Destroyer of Worlds is both friend and ally to the LGBT community. He despises those who seek to maintain social inequality, especially under the guise of religious duty. Ferretianism is the one true religion. Repent and secure your purple energy bubble! (banjoferret d c)
Hook up with the mormons. They have planets for gay couples to build cultures.
ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!!
I see from some of the comments and questions that some still don't have a basic education about homosexuality. Muslims lead the way as having the most uneducated, disenfranchising stance toward gays. But many Christians are not far behind. Just last week CNN reported some gays being arrested in Zambia which is a predominantly Christian nation.
Christianity has always been conflicted on social issues, but this current hot topic really highlights the extremism within Christianity. One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one (over four million members) in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage. Thomas Jefferson hit the nail on the head over 200 years ago:
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
(from Notes on the State of Virginia, 1785)
Some claim that Christianity and science are not incompatible, yet we find many who continue to ignore current scientific knowledge on the issue of homosexuality. Is the problem poor education, steadfastness to one's own flavor of biblical interpretation, or both?
Whatever your religion, whatever your belief, with gay marriage coming quickly to the U.S., now is the time to at least have a basic education about homosexuality.
The following is long, but note the quote from Professor MIchael King below in the section on psychology.
=========================================================
Psychology
The American Psychological Association states "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people", and says most people's sexual orientation is determined at an early age. Research into how sexual orientation in males may be determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises concerns about genetic profiling and prenatal testing."
Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."
The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:
"Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."
Biology
The following is from the article:
Homosexuality ultimately a result of gene regulation, researchers find (12/11/2012 – LiveScience)
[ The search for a "gay gene" may be off-target, new research finds. Another process called epigenetics that switches genes on and off may explain why homosexuality runs in families.
Epigenetics are heritable changes caused by factors other than DNA. Instead of traits getting passed down through the genes, epigenetic change happens because of the way genes are regulated, or turned on and off.
These genetic regulators may be the reason homosexuality persists in nature despite the fact that gay people are less likely to reproduce, suggests the new study published in the journal The Quarterly Review of Biology.
"These things have evolved because they're good for the parents, but they sometimes, not [with] high frequency, but sometimes carry over" into offspring, study researcher William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, told LiveScience. In a male fetus, Rice and his colleagues write, an epigenetic change that benefited the mother may lead to "feminization" of sexual preference — homo- or bisexuality. The same may be true for epigenetic changes passed down by dad to a female fetus. (The terms feminization and masculinization of sexual preference refer to sexual orientation only — not to physical or personality traits of the offspring.)
The findings add to past research suggesting gay men haven't died out, because female relatives of gay men tend to have more children on average than other females. The study researchers specifically found that two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.
Hormones, epigenetics and orientation
Rice and his colleagues focused on epi-marks, which are molecular changes that act like temporary "switches" to turn genes on and off. If a gene is a blueprint, the epi-mark is the construction foreman who makes sure the product gets built. An epi-mark also determines when, where and how much a gene is expressed, according to the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis.
These molecular switches are usually erased very early in the developmental process, but they can be passed down from generation to generation, too, Rice said.
Some epi-marks are particularly important during fetal development, when they promote normal physical development in the sexes despite natural variations in testosterone during pregnancy. Researchers know that fetal exposure to too much testosterone can masculinize the genitals, brain or behavior of a genetically female fetus. Likewise, too little testosterone can make a genetically male fetus more feminized.
But here's the catch: There's lots of overlap between the levels of testosterone male and female fetuses get exposed to. That means there must be another side to the story, Rice and his colleagues wrote.
That side appears to be epigenetics, Rice said.
"Early in development, we think these epi-marks are laid down so that girl fetuses will be relatively insensitive to testosterone and male fetuses will be relatively sensitive to testosterone," Rice said.
Biological behavior
Thus, if an epi-mark that kept a mother from getting exposed to high testosterone in development gets passed on to her son — the opposite sex — it could desensitize him to testosterone, contributing to his sexual preference for men. Similarly, if a male-specific epi-mark from dad gets passed to a daughter, it could "masculinize" her sexual preference, making her more interested in women.
These findings could explain why twin studies show that homosexuality runs in families, but no "gay gene" can be found, Rice said. In identical twins, there's about a 20 percent chance that if one twin is gay, the other will be too. If genetic change were responsible for homosexuality, you'd expect a much higher match, Rice said. Epigenetics, however, can explain the heritability without the need for a specific genetic change.
The hypothesis could be tested by examining epigenetic marks in parents of kids with gay versus straight offspring, Rice said. There are, of course, concerns that this knowledge could be used by parents who want to avoid gay offspring, Rice said, but that concern already exists around certain hormonal conditions in utero, which are known to contribute to an increased chance of offspring being lesbians.
"That cat's already out of the bag," Rice said. He added that an understanding of the biological underpinnings of homosexuality could help emphasize that same-sex behavior is not "unnatural."
"In fact, it's a major part of the natural world," Rice said. Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs, he pointed out. And 8 percent of male sheep show zero interest in fertile ewes, but get sexually excited by other rams. ]
=====================================================
"The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change." –Prof King
Bully commie mama Khrushchev.
chemically altered gene pools anyone?
Conspiracy theory, Bill?
names won't hide facts, lol??
Facts are fine commie K. It's the conclusions that are dangerous, dufus.
Jesus was a commie. The early Christians practiced communism using Jesus words to confiscate people's property.
If you didn't give every penny, they would kill you. Try reading the bible, lol-tard.
Physics, Chemistry and Biology are sciences.
Physiology is not a science but rather a subjective philology that changes every generation.
from anther thread faith
But Sara..................the POLITICIANS...............military and police forces should know the information and understand IT !
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/#comments
Mama, by your own statement, the science of which I am familiar with, an epigenetic marker can reduce testosterone sensitivity in a male fetus resulting in attraction to men. If so, then other testosterone inhibitors would produce the same result. Repeated test have shown that the use of oral contraceptives reduce the levels of intrauterine free testosterone. I guess big pharma doesn't care what you bath your babies in before they are born as long as the market holds.
"testosterone sensitivity in a male fetus resulting in attraction to men. If so, then other testosterone inhibitors would produce the same result. "
Erik
Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.
In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"
But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.
This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Do you have specific studies, Bill, that would indicate that specific correlation?
Hey Bill.........you like thre red devil and the horn don';t you ?
@Bill Deacon,
Interesting question. I don't know if the science is there, but if it were, what are ethics behind selecting an orientation for one's child?
Lee M, Morgan M, and Rapkin A. A preliminary study. J Seex Med 2011;8:213–218.
Monica Lee MD1, Melinda Morgan PhD2, Andrea Rapkin MD3,*
Article first published online: 18 OCT 2010
DOI: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02074.x
The Journal of Seexual Medicine
Volume 8, Issue 1, pages 213–218, January 2011
Whew thank god they still want to have seex!
ME II I don't think the mechanism for choosing gender is in place, as yet. I presume the Church would prohibit it since we are generally not in favor of humans as products. I am more concerned with the blind introduction of chemicals into fetal bio-chemistry as a driver in seexualization that contradicts gender.
What would be the ethics regarding oral contraception if it were determined that chemicals were altering our children gestation-ally?
mis-read your question. I thought you were asking about gender selection.
In an earlier thread on the topic of epigenetic markers I asked the question about how pro-gaay rights activists would respond if people started aborting babies that showed indications of same seex attraction. Would that change the landscape of the abortion debate if it became a gaay rights to life issue?
Bill Deacon,
"Whew thank god they still want to have seex!"
Nearly every human being wants to have seex. What was your point?
Good questions, Bill. Regarding characteristics knowledge before birth – if people starting learning that much about an unborn child, then there is likely to be a whole host of issues and other things they would learn that would bring a much more general ethical question into play I would think – just guessing of course. And regarding chemicals affecting testosterone, etc., that is interesting. Perhaps that too will someday see some better regulation because of again – possibly a number of generally unwarranted effects. But we do know that aside from such relatively recent data, that homosexuality has existed naturally in many parts of nature besides humans for millennia.
mama k needs to read Jesus' truth.
Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 5:20
Amen.
As a Catholic, we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory. God wants all of his creation to return back to him and live holy lives for that was what we were meant to be from the beginning. We were meant to be holy and good. We can be the best version of ourselves if we allow the penetrating love and grace from God to transform us from within. Through God's grace sin is forgiven and we are taught to love one another as ourselves and learn to take accountability for our own sinful actions. Instead of rebelling towards the one who loves you and created you in his image, maybe it's time for us with humility to return to our Lord who wishes to give us peace and love.
God Bless,
You sound like a really stupid piece of shlt, Jon. What's wrong? Can't your god talk to anyone? No? Gosh what a shock.
We were meant to be holy and good
----
Don't fall prey to the guilt that religion wants you to believe about yourself. I'm sure you have many good qualities, as does everyone. You are, as God designed you to be. Everyone is.
Jon Matthew, Amen.
To all the unbelievers who allow satan to whisper lies into your ears Isaiah 5:20
Da gubmint's view of marriage is 2 captains in the co*ckpit. Da hell with the next generation passengers.
In 1980 a study was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry which stated that eleven former ho mose xual men became heterose xuals "without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy" through their participation in a Pentecostal church.[
you're out of date once again. stuck in old science much?
mama k, the new science designed by PT Barnum whannabes, giving lip service for whatever anyone wants to hear? LOL.
30 years ago? Wouldn't be surprised if they "spontaneously" converted due to death threats.
One study 33 years ago? really? How about every study since then confirming the opposite. talk about living in the past
Actually those gay men went to the Pentecostal church out of confusion over what "speaking in tongues" actually meant. Let's just say they were very disappointed to find it wasn't as exciting as they had imagined, so they went back to the Village.
It would be interesting to follow up on that *huge* sample of people from over three decades ago to see if it stuck.
I'm absolutely sure that it was not due to any influence other than church attendance and prayer. No nasty threats of hell, no sobbing relatives, no shaming, no endless, exhausting multi-day revivals, nothing like that. Just fellowship and prayer.
Cluckles
Is that you AB best wit on the blog, at least 20 that got me LMAO.
@ Cluckles
This time it was both your name and your post. Too funny.
All g-ays can tell Jesus they can't handle their sins and turn it over to Him. He promised us that he would handle our burdens when they become overwhelming and when we humble ourselves to ask Him to remind Him of His promises.
Dr. Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead state regarding various cultures: "If hom ose xuality were significantly influenced by genes, it would appear in every culture, but in twenty-nine of seventy-nine cultures surveyed by Ford and Beach in 1952, hom ose xuality was rare or absent."[
wow – your science is long overdue for a rehaul
Atheist Hunter,
Millions of gays say they were born that way. Please list your background as a MIND READER so you can claim you know they are all lying.
People named after zits are f"d up in the head. Who want's to be named after a zit? Why wouldn't they change their names to something non-gross?
As a geneticist, replace the word "ho mose xuality" with "red hair" and you'll see how silly that statement is. What journal was this published in?? I'm assuming it wasn't a genetics one!
HEY AH
1952..............where is the purple dino ?
Observer, only your generation of g-ays bought into the lie that you were born that way. This lie will keep you in your sins and never work on dumping those sins out of your life. Who's zooming who?
Actually, Observer, Esau could have made the same claim. "You knew I was a f'up, God, tain't my fault. It's yers." What does any of this matter?? The gubmint god of the A&A's is handling it. No tears from me for a burning gubmint pharisee.
HeavenSent,
I'm not gay. Ooops! That's okay, you haven't said much else that was right either.
"only your generation of g-ays bought into the lie that you were born that way"
Erik
Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.
In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"
But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.
This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
'Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that hom.ose.uality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no hom.ose.xual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that hom.ose.xuals are 'born that way.'"
What's amazing about this is that these folks really don't realize how dumb this stuff makes them sound. They might as well all put on T-shirts with "I failed high school biology" across the front. And then when you read these Christian websites you find the same folks wondering why their kids leave the faith as soon as they go away to college. Hint to fundamentalist loonies: your kids realize you're a bunch of nitwits after their first semester of classes.