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May 11th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

My Take: ‘Gay Christian’ is not an oxymoron

Editor’s note: Justin Lee is the Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network and author of Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate.

By Justin Lee, Special to CNN

(CNN)–In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all.

My nickname was "God boy," and I was known for regularly preaching at my friends about social issues of the day. I dismissed their objections - and accusations of homophobia - as intolerance for my faith.

"I'm just telling you what God's Word says," I'd argue.

Years later I realized my mistake. What my peers most objected to wasn't my beliefs - it was my condescending attitude. I debated and preached when I should have listened. I thought that stating my position loudly and unyieldingly was a sign of strength. In the process, I alienated my friends.

I'm still an evangelical Christian, but one thing is now crystal clear to me. American evangelicals' bad reputation isn't just because of what we believe. It's mostly because of how we behave.

When ESPN commentator Chris Broussard was criticized for saying that openly gay NBA player Jason Collins was “openly rebelling against God,” some evangelicals argued that conservative theological views are no longer tolerated in America.

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But they're missing the point.

Broussard's language didn't just express a religious view about sexual morality; it referred to gay people in ways that were dehumanizing, reducing all gay people's lives to a single sex act. Other outspoken Christians routinely say even worse things, comparing gay people to pedophiles, for example.

No one is immune from criticism in a free country with diverse beliefs. But if Christians feel particularly singled out at times, I'd argue that our perceived lack of empathy for others is largely to blame.

I can often test a Christian's level of empathy by offering a single admission: When I was 18, I realized that I'm gay.

Empathetic Christians are typically intrigued by such a statement, even if they also question how a conservative Southern Baptist could also be openly gay. They want to know about my struggles, how my family and church responded, and whether I ever feel my faith and sexuality are at odds with one another.

I love these questions, because they show that the other person genuinely sees me as a human being.

But far too often, Christians respond not with curiosity and questions but with politics and preaching.

They quote Bible passages at me, make assumptions about my faith, or tell me why they’re opposed to same-sex marriage.

I'm no longer a person to them; I'm a symbol of a culture war. A battlefield. And when I don't want to be treated that way, they assume I'm turning away because I didn't really want to hear the truth.

This kind of behavior is why so many of my LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) friends want nothing to do with the church.

But it's not only them.

In my book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," I share the story of Cindy, a conservative evangelical mom whose life was thrown into turmoil when her son told her he was gay.

This wasn't a political question for Cindy; it was a personal one. But the dehumanizing rhetoric about gay people she heard from the pulpit made her afraid to talk to anyone at church about her son's sexuality.

Christians are not a monolithic group. I know many empathetic Christians, including many who speak up regularly for their LGBT brothers and sisters.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The loudest megaphones do not speak for the rest of us, but they are still loud, and legion. To them I say: Gay people are not an issue. We're people. Some of us are Christians, too. And if it disturbs you that I refer to myself as both gay and Christian, I invite you to take the time to get to know me, and read what I write. You don't have to agree, and you might think I’m a sinner, but at least you’ll see me as a human being.

Baptist minister and author Tony Campolo quips that Jesus entreated Christians not to "love the sinner and hate the sin," but to "love the sinner and hate your own sin."

Jesus saved his harshest words for the self-righteously devout and chose the outcasts and sinners as his closest friends.

Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Justin Lee.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Homosexuality • Opinion

soundoff (3,629 Responses)
  1. faith

    "Cluckles the Boneless Chicken Fails Miserably in his Attempt to Cross the Road
    God's game of hide-and-seek is totally necessary for the free will that you cannot possibly have if there is an omniscient god."

    lol

    May 13, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
    • faith

      if there is a god and he says to me, walk down the street backwards, naked, juggling 5 razor sharp knives and you can be my disciple and he's got a deal

      May 13, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      So God can be arbitrary or given to impulses impossible to understand and the believer must follow it's every whim?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • faith

      god has decided that i don't need to know some things. sometimes he answers with a yes. sometimes no, sometimes wait. sometimes he answers with silence

      he does all things well

      May 13, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • faith

      "Tom, Tom, the Other One
      So God can be arbitrary" do you think?

      or given to impulses impossible to understand
      impulses dorothy?

      and the believer must follow it's every whim?

      "every whim" y call god it?

      you have no proof god is an it
      or, if you do, feel free to share it with the rest of us

      May 13, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      What should I call God if not "it"?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Revelation 21:8 is a must read.

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Platypus Rex

      Actually, in the story of the Fig Tree, Jesus is very clear that if you pray for something and believe, you will absolutely get exactly what you pray for, including having a mountain throw itself into the sea.

      What you said is a rejection of Jesus – there is no "maybe" or "no." Christians like to say that cutesy little cliché, but the Bible says otherwise.

      It's one of the many reasons we cannot believe the Bible, by the way. A real god just could not be wrong like that.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • faith

      "Actually, in the story of the Fig Tree, Jesus is very clear that if you pray for something and believe, you will absolutely get exactly what you pray for, including having a mountain throw itself into the sea. What you said is a rejection of Jesus – there is no "maybe" or "no." Christians like to say that cutesy little cliché, but the Bible says otherwise. It's one of the many reasons we cannot believe the Bible, by the way. A real god just could not be wrong like that."

      that's a shame

      May 13, 2013 at 11:28 pm |
    • faith

      "Tom, Tom, the Other One
      What should I call God if not "it"?"

      call god it if u can prove god is an it is all i said

      May 13, 2013 at 11:31 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      "Jesus is very clear that if you pray for something and believe, you will absolutely get exactly what you pray for'

      You can bet that DIDN'T happen in Sandy Hook or Aurora.

      Get real. Face reality for once.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
    • faith

      "Observer
      faith,
      "Jesus is very clear that if you pray for something and believe, you will absolutely get exactly what you pray for'
      You can bet that DIDN'T happen in Sandy Hook or Aurora.
      Get real. Face reality for once."

      problem?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:47 pm |
    • faith

      there is no "maybe" or "no."

      someone said "maybe"?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      "problem?'

      HUGE PROBLEM for them. Surprised you couldn't figure that out.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
    • faith

      Observer
      faith,
      "problem?'
      HUGE PROBLEM for them. Surprised you couldn't figure that out.

      sambo doesn't think so.

      May 14, 2013 at 1:20 am |
  2. mama k

    HeavenSent wrote recently today about others lying (see last page or two). This was same article (page 4) from yesterday:

    ======================
    mama k: I'm still trying to figure this one out: "HS: "A dvocates of s ame-s3x m arriage have never been s uccessful at the b allot box when citizens were allow to cast their votes."" Does HS actually think someone prevented people from casting their votes in Maryland, Washington (state), or Maine?
    May 12, 2013 at 8:38 pm | Report abuse | Reply
    ======================
    (reply) HeavenSent: Open you eyes mama k and tell me what election day did this occur? Aaaaaaaah, no election, none, nadda.
    May 12, 2013 at 9:24 pm | Report abuse |
    ======================
    (reply) The Sad Floppy Life of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken:
    From Wikipedia: "Same-sex marriage in Maine became legal on December 29, 2012. The bill for legalization was approved by voters, 53-47 percent, on November 6, 2012, as Maine, Maryland and Washington became the first U.S. states to legalize same-sex marriage by popular vote." Got that date?
    May 12, 2013 at 9:47 pm | Report abuse |
    ========================
    (reply) HeavenSent: mama k, what about the other states that didn't vote them in either? Purest form of history being rewritten by the unbelievers and shoveled out to serve the lost.
    May 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm | Report abuse |
    ========================
    (reply) mama k: Well that's a different statement, isn't it? That wouldn't be your original: [
    HS: "A dvocates of s ame-s3x m arriage have never been s uccessful at the b allot box when citizens were allow to cast their votes." ] . . . now would it?
    May 13, 2013 at 8:47 pm | Report abuse |
    ========================
    (reply) HeavenSent: The only truth I can think of mama k, it must have been bad weather closing down the roads in Maine that election year. Either that, or most residents were on vacation.
    May 13, 2013 at 8:52 pm | Report abuse |
    ========================

    May 13, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, Jesus truth is what counts, Satan's lies are just that, lies

      Must read for everyone is Revelation 21.

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:15 pm |
    • mama k

      Well I thought you were some Christian, or at least one that wouldn't avoid truth or facts, but apparently I'm wrong. Apparently to lie and try to weasel out of making false statements is an admirable thing to do for your Lord, which you have proven above. Okee dokee.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • lol??

      yer gubmint god, in charge of marriage, made it real easy for da wimen to say I ain't obeyin' nuthin'! Then they kill babies, too. Goes downhill from there. Don't blame the Creator. Gubmint is in charge of everything.

      May 14, 2013 at 2:01 am |
    • Science

      But Sara..................the POLITICIANS...............military and police forces should know the information and understand IT !

      https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/#comments

      May 14, 2013 at 6:39 am |
    • HeavenSent

      There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

      Proverbs 14:12

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
  3. -

    Samuel, when you see most of responses to your post, co/nsider the co/ndition of those who posted them. They are spiritualy dead.They have eyes, but see not, and they have ears but hear not.
    And pride keeps them in the co/ndition they are in...

    May 13, 2013 at 10:29 pm |
    • As he plummets down the cliff, Cluckles ponders the aerodynamic inefficiencies of boneless chickens

      Look! It's a genuine HeavenSent phony handle!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • .

      Is there any reason you are inserting / into common words such as 'consider' and 'condition'? Weird affectation.

      Oh, and its message is pretty stupid, too.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Cliff, I don't use dummy handles.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:30 pm |
  4. Chad

    "Gay Christian" is like
    Divorced Christian, lying Christian, cheating Christian, stealing Christian, bearing false witness Christian.

    I am guilty of many of those myself, but I dont ask the church to give those sins the stamp of approval.

    May 13, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
    • Athy

      I wouldn't like a gay Christian either. But it wouldn't be because he's gay.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
    • Observer

      Chad,

      So you don't see any difference in being wrong between: lying, cheating and stealing and two lovers having s3x in the privacy of their bedroom.

      Get serious.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
    • mama k

      Gay is not a choice. Education helps.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • Athy

      Chad is so narrow minded he can see through a keyhole with both eyes.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • Chad

      The issue isnt what I like or dislike, the issue is what God likes/dislikes.

      There is an objective morality, a morality that exists independent of our view of it.

      Look, this is not hate. This is asking people to investigate the reality of the God of Israel.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "The issue isnt what I like or dislike, the issue is what God likes/dislikes."

      And if you are unsure about what god likes/dislikes....just ask Chad.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, How can you claim to know what your god wants when the only reference book is incorrect in the foundational parts, unproveable but outlandishly far-fetched in the rest. Anything the bible says cannot be relied upon. No god has shown itself and there is no evidence of a god.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
    • .

      Now, why do you suppose God made humans born gay, Chad??

      May 13, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Chad wrote: "There is an objective morality, a morality that exists independent of our view of it.

      Look, this is not hate."

      When faced with scientific evidence that weakens a religions claims, it may not be hate but it certainly is selfish disregard for others that causes one to disregard realities and cling to outdated belief systems because they are convenient and changing is work. I've heard the same crap out of some old school (fundamentalist) Hindus on caste and out of followers of Falun DaFa on why helping others is bad...and it's still crap people cling to for their own selfish reasons.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:35 pm |
    • faith

      for it is god who is working and keeps working continuously in your heart to do what he wants

      May 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
    • Observer

      Chad,

      So tell us:

      Do YOU don't see any difference in being wrong between: lying, cheating and stealing and two lovers having s3x in the privacy of their bedroom?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
    • faith

      "In Santa we trust
      Chad, How can you claim to know what your god wants when the only reference book is incorrect in the foundational parts, unproveable but outlandishly far-fetched in the rest. Anything the bible says cannot be relied upon. No god has shown itself and there is no evidence of a god."

      lol

      May 13, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @.,

      A lot of these people (or at least Christian who accept that people can be born gay) think that god offer's everyone challenges and being gay is just one of those challenges. They're usually pretty sheltered folk and don't read or travel so they really are able to delude themselves into thinking that we're in this world where the challenges are equal for everyone in the Christian context.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • Bruce Almighty

      Chad, I think your God's objective morality is nothing more than you projecting your own morality upon your god. But, it is very easy to prove me wrong. If God's "objective morality" exists independently of yours, perhaps you can point out one or two areas where your morality and God's differs. So, where do they differ?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
    • Vic

      @mama k "....."

      Regarding Education, Science has NOT found any gene that causes h o m o s e x u a l i t y! As a matter of fact, Science has established that h o m o s e x u a l i t y! is epigenetic (non-genetic!) Furthermore, even if h o m o s e x u a l i t y! were genetic, that would be in direct conflict with Evolution for it would have become extinct long ago because of reduced reproduction!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • faith

      ".
      Now, why do you suppose God made humans born gay, Chad??"

      jesus, why was this dude born blind? who sinned, his mom, his dad?

      got it all wrong boys. neither

      May 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • mama k

      @Vic====================================================
      Psychology

      The American Psychological Association states "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people", and says most people's sexual orientation is determined at an early age. Research into how sexual orientation in males may be determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises concerns about genetic profiling and prenatal testing."

      Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."

      The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

      "Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."

      Biology

      The following is from the article:

      Homosexuality ultimately a result of gene regulation, researchers find (12/11/2012 – LiveScience)

      [ The search for a "gay gene" may be off-target, new research finds. Another process called epigenetics that switches genes on and off may explain why homosexuality runs in families.

      Epigenetics are heritable changes caused by factors other than DNA. Instead of traits getting passed down through the genes, epigenetic change happens because of the way genes are regulated, or turned on and off.

      These genetic regulators may be the reason homosexuality persists in nature despite the fact that gay people are less likely to reproduce, suggests the new study published in the journal The Quarterly Review of Biology.

      "These things have evolved because they're good for the parents, but they sometimes, not [with] high frequency, but sometimes carry over" into offspring, study researcher William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, told LiveScience. In a male fetus, Rice and his colleagues write, an epigenetic change that benefited the mother may lead to "feminization" of sexual preference — homo- or bisexuality. The same may be true for epigenetic changes passed down by dad to a female fetus. (The terms feminization and masculinization of sexual preference refer to sexual orientation only — not to physical or personality traits of the offspring.)

      The findings add to past research suggesting gay men haven't died out, because female relatives of gay men tend to have more children on average than other females. The study researchers specifically found that two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

      Hormones, epigenetics and orientation

      Rice and his colleagues focused on epi-marks, which are molecular changes that act like temporary "switches" to turn genes on and off. If a gene is a blueprint, the epi-mark is the construction foreman who makes sure the product gets built. An epi-mark also determines when, where and how much a gene is expressed, according to the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis.

      These molecular switches are usually erased very early in the developmental process, but they can be passed down from generation to generation, too, Rice said.

      Some epi-marks are particularly important during fetal development, when they promote normal physical development in the sexes despite natural variations in testosterone during pregnancy. Researchers know that fetal exposure to too much testosterone can masculinize the genitals, brain or behavior of a genetically female fetus. Likewise, too little testosterone can make a genetically male fetus more feminized.

      But here's the catch: There's lots of overlap between the levels of testosterone male and female fetuses get exposed to. That means there must be another side to the story, Rice and his colleagues wrote.

      That side appears to be epigenetics, Rice said.

      "Early in development, we think these epi-marks are laid down so that girl fetuses will be relatively insensitive to testosterone and male fetuses will be relatively sensitive to testosterone," Rice said.

      Biological behavior

      Thus, if an epi-mark that kept a mother from getting exposed to high testosterone in development gets passed on to her son — the opposite sex — it could desensitize him to testosterone, contributing to his sexual preference for men. Similarly, if a male-specific epi-mark from dad gets passed to a daughter, it could "masculinize" her sexual preference, making her more interested in women.

      These findings could explain why twin studies show that homosexuality runs in families, but no "gay gene" can be found, Rice said. In identical twins, there's about a 20 percent chance that if one twin is gay, the other will be too. If genetic change were responsible for homosexuality, you'd expect a much higher match, Rice said. Epigenetics, however, can explain the heritability without the need for a specific genetic change.

      The hypothesis could be tested by examining epigenetic marks in parents of kids with gay versus straight offspring, Rice said. There are, of course, concerns that this knowledge could be used by parents who want to avoid gay offspring, Rice said, but that concern already exists around certain hormonal conditions in utero, which are known to contribute to an increased chance of offspring being lesbians.

      "That cat's already out of the bag," Rice said. He added that an understanding of the biological underpinnings of homosexuality could help emphasize that same-sex behavior is not "unnatural."

      "In fact, it's a major part of the natural world," Rice said. Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs, he pointed out. And 8 percent of male sheep show zero interest in fertile ewes, but get sexually excited by other rams. ]
      =========================================================

      May 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
    • mama k

      and Vic that post answers all of your concerns

      May 13, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • As he plummets down the cliff, Cluckles ponders the aerodynamic inefficiencies of boneless chickens

      There you go with your Satanic fact thingies again, mama! As we all know, Goid hates facts!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:50 pm |
    • faith

      y would god oppose ho m os x ua li ty?

      1. he's a sa di st.
      2. ain't no god
      3. he is a cruel.
      4. to make some people mi sera ble
      5. he ain't tellin
      6. he made people mal e and f e ma le and eu nu chs.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • faith

      "Observer
      Chad,

      So tell us:

      Do YOU don't see any difference in being wrong between: lying, cheating and stealing and two lovers having s3x in the privacy of their bedroom?"

      so, al things r naked and open unto the eyes of him with whom we have to

      May 13, 2013 at 10:55 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      Answer: for the same reasons he supports slavery and discrimination against women and the handicapped.

      Same level of morals.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:56 pm |
    • Vic

      @mama k "....."

      Your post is only a detailed discussion of the scientific research and findings regarding how h o m o s e x u a l i t y is non-genetic, and speculated to be by epi-marks but NOT determined yet!

      Didn't you read that?!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      Since you commented, please answer the same question.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
    • Just too funny

      Non-genetic epigenetic marks? You really want to go with that Austin, uh, Vic?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
    • Athy

      Chad, why do you think god would care about gays who don't hurt anyone? Doesn't he have more important things to do? Like prevent wars? Stop mass killings? Prevent floods and drought? You religies are so damn dense it makes me sick. You have no common sense whatsoever.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • faith

      "Athy
      I wouldn't like a gay Christian either. But it wouldn't be because he's gay."

      so, dorothy is a godaphobe

      May 13, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • Platypus Rex

      Since one cannot be afraid of things they do not believe exist, the proper term would be a "moronophobe."

      May 13, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • mama k

      OK, if we just look at wiki for starters:

      "In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype, caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence – hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above, outer) -genetics, some of which are heritable."

      So where did Vic get "epigenetic (non-genetic!)" from?

      I would think the expressions changes in gene expression and some of which are heritable keep epigenetics with genetics, right?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
    • The Floppy, Unimpressive Zombie Apocalypse of Boneless Chickens

      They could be Jesus' super-secret non-genetic epi-genetic doodads that he made while he was hanging in the tomb for a few days pounding brewskis and watching reruns of "Three's Company".

      May 13, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, you posted "Gay is not a choice. Education helps."

      Answer: Truthful education taught by Jesus gives the seeker wisdom. mama k, stop listening to satan's lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you posted to faith, "Answer: for the same reasons he supports slavery and discrimination against women and the handicapped. Same level of morals."

      Answer: Fools don't comprehend Jesus' teachings. You keep proving His truth.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • mama k

      Epigenetics is currently the closest fit as an explanation for homosexuality because it does address what we see happening in nature – something inheritable, but that doesn't seem to pass directly from one generation to the next, but that, as they say, is evidently early in life and, most importantly to note for the theist, * is resistant to change *. These attributes not only match what we see across many parts of the animal kingdom, but also would explain why some adolescents are so certainly so early in age about their sexuality. At this late date, if you are ignoring these obvious indicators that are really nothing brand new, then you have an agenda not based on knowledge and research, but fear and avoidance.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:37 pm |
    • Athy

      Mama, you're wasting your time on HS. Her reading skills are barely beyond Dick and Jane. And she probably thinks Spot is the devil in disguise.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • mama k

      thanks, Athy – actually that was just a continued response to Vic – I should have said @Vic in the past two responses before this one.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:06 am |
    • faith

      Observer
      faith,
      Answer: for the same reasons he supports slavery and discrimination against women and the handicapped.
      Same level of morals.

      c, dodo, u had the answer all along

      May 14, 2013 at 12:09 am |
    • Chad

      @Saraswati "When faced with scientific evidence that weakens a religions claims, it may not be hate but it certainly is selfish disregard for others that causes one to disregard realities and cling to outdated belief systems because they are convenient and changing is work. I've heard the same crap out of some old school (fundamentalist) Hindus on caste and out of followers of Falun DaFa on why helping others is bad...and it's still crap people cling to for their own selfish reasons."

      =>what' this???
      criticism?
      from a determinist?
      That's immoral, right?

      Does determinism have problematic moral implications? It is typically thought so. After all, it is thought that one can not be sensibly blamed or praised for one’s behavior. Suddenly, murderers, rapists, burglars, and fraudulent salesmen would not be blamed for their deeds; for their murders, ra pes, burglaries, and fraudulent sales are determined by prior conditions. It is typically thought that these are counter-intuitive implications of determinism

      interesting.. see Matthew 7:5

      May 14, 2013 at 12:13 am |
    • Chad

      @Bruce Almighty "I think your God's objective morality is nothing more than you projecting your own morality upon your god. But, it is very easy to prove me wrong. If God's "objective morality" exists independently of yours, perhaps you can point out one or two areas where your morality and God's differs. So, where do they differ?"

      @Chad'
      "A. even IF my will and Gods will coincided perfectly, that wouldnt mean objective morality didnt exist, it would just mean that I had the same concept of morality as the objective standard
      B. My will is so far from the perfect will of God, it isnt even on the map. I find all kinds of excuses for this, that and the other thing. Like many, I couldnt survive a day without a rationalization.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:18 am |
    • The Kill-Crazy Tuba Rampage of Barry Manilow

      Chad straw-mans out to determinism. Way to straw man, buddy!

      May 14, 2013 at 12:18 am |
    • faith

      Athy
      Chad, why do you think god would care about gays who don't hurt anyone? Doesn't he have more important things to do? Like prevent wars? Stop mass killings? Prevent floods and drought? You religies are so damn dense it makes me sick. You have no common sense whatsoever.

      why should god care about anything?
      who says gays don't hurt anyone?
      why do you think god is more concerned about gays than other evils?
      u r a believerphobe

      May 14, 2013 at 12:20 am |
    • Observer

      faith,

      "c, dodo, u had the answer all along"

      You're on the side SUPPORTING slavery and discrimination against women and the handicapped.

      So who's the dodo?

      faith

      Observer
      faith,
      Answer: for the same reasons he supports slavery and discrimination against women and the handicapped.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:21 am |
    • Chad

      @Athy

      you need to realize that the Judeo/Christian object of worship isnt man-made.
      Once you understand that, and start to understand what exactly God is doing in response to mankind's original sin, you'll gain a better understanding of why the world is the way it is.

      Making humans better is not Gods goal, saving us is.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:21 am |
    • Observer

      Chad,

      If God really cared about saving us, he'd reveal himself and save billions of people from going to hell.

      You don't think things through very well. That's probably why you skip out on questions.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:25 am |
    • The Kill-Crazy Tuba Rampage of Barry Manilow

      God made Adam and Eve so that they would sin. It was his plan all along. They had no choice. It was a set-up, a frame, so that he could impose a guilt trip on all generations to follow.

      Inherited guilt is a massively unjust concept, but It's the first thing God does with humans.

      It's just so obviously the invention of ancient peasants, not well-thought-out, unjust, cruel, ridiculous, and just plain silly.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:29 am |
    • mama k

      @Chad – a reminder about something I brought up before. What kind of determinism? Do we know everything there is to know about determinism?

      For instance, take John Martin Fischer, of UC, Riverside, who recently served as Western Division President of the American Philosophical Association this past year. He is credited with this notion of "semicompatibilism" which seems to be a branch of compatibilism, a branch of Soft Determinism. The idea of this semicompatibilism regarding morality is that moral responsibility is compatible with determinism, whether free will is present or not as noted here:

      http://www.thomsonedu.com/philosophy/book_content/0495094927_feinberg/introductions/part_4/Compatibilism/fischer.html
      ):

      [ traditionally ] determinism cannot be compatible with free will. In order to deal with this problem, Fischer proposes semicompatibilism. Semicompatibilism abandons regulative control (the sort of freedom that involves genuine access to alternative possibilities) and asserts that humans have only guidance control. (Guidance control, says Fischer, is a unique sort of causal connection one can have with the world. When one is driving a car in normal circumstances, one has guidance control; when one sneezes while driving and causes the wheel to jerk to the left, one does not have guidance control.) The Consequence Argument does not touch semicompatibilism, because the Consequence Argument rules out only regulative control, not guidance control. Yet semicompatibilism retains the central advantages of compatibilism: it allows us to confidently attribute moral responsibility to agents even if we are unsure whether determinism is true.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:48 am |
    • Science

      But Sara....... chad...........the POLITICIANS...............military and police forces should know the information and understand

      IT !

      https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/#comments

      May 14, 2013 at 6:54 am |
    • sam stone

      they do not the church's stamp of approval, chad

      they do need state approval

      and it is coming

      if it bothers you, fvcking choke on it

      May 14, 2013 at 8:11 am |
    • sam stone

      "The issue isnt what I like or dislike, the issue is what God likes/dislike"

      No, the issue is a delusional fvck purporting to speak for god

      May 14, 2013 at 8:13 am |
    • Chad

      @mama k

      =>if all that exists is the universe and the laws that govern it, what physical basis do you have to justify a belief in semi-compatibalism?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • mama k

      I didn't say I believed in semi-compatibilism, Chad, it's just a idea among many for determinism. I've not been shown any particular theory to be proven on the subject. If we already had answers to the question, then we might have something physical, right? But we don't have those answers, do we?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • Chad

      What the atheist doesnt have, is any possible physical justification for any type of non-determinism.

      none.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • mama k

      And what the atheist doesn't have, Chad are many of the same answers that theists claim to have for which, after all this time, they have yet to provide any proof. At least atheists are honest and comfortable in acknowledging and accepting what is unknown to us all.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Ah, Chad is confusing atheism (simply the lack of belief in gods) with deterministic materialism again. Sure a lot of atheists are deterministic materialits, but many others, including millions of Buddhists and non-deterministic physicists for a start, are not. For anyone who somehow missed it, Chad has been clearly informed at leat 100 times that atheism and deterministic materialism aren't the same thing. He's either got a serious learning disability (possibly related to genes that regulate confirmation bias susceptibility) or an assumption that people are so stupid he can get away with misrepresenting these ideas.

      May 14, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Oh, look again! Chad is for the 20th or so time trying to make the claim that a determinist can't criticize anyone although this makes no a scrap of sense. And yep, it has been explained already to him over and over in great detail bymultiple people. Is he actually incapable of learning or just a dishonest little pest with nothing better to do with his time?

      May 14, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Chad

      @saraswati

      A. determinism and atheism are two different concepts, as I have explained multiple times. However there is this (as I have explained multiple times, and you know already, but you persist as always.. I guess you think it makes good copy..)

      – since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to reject the existence of the soul
      – since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view the universe as impersonal, and entirely governed by physical laws only.
      – since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view all living organisms as merely products of the natural world, entirely governed by the physical laws.
      – since atheists reject the soul, they view a person as entirely comprised of the particles that make them up. Those particles interacting in a perfectly deterministic manner.

      so, atheism and determinism are two different notions, but an atheist has no physical basis for the justifying a belief in non-determinism.

      B. Determinism implies there is no free will. If there is no free will, how can you claim that someone is morally responsible for their actions?

      QED.

      May 14, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      @Chad

      On this issue. like all others WHERE YOU THINK IT WILL BENEFIT YOU, you oversimplify. (Of course, on other issues, WHERE YOU THINK IT WILL HELP YOU, you confuse and clutter and obfuscate).

      There are plenty of mechanisms that allow an atheist to believe in one of the many forms of free will.

      It is IMPOSSIBLE for a christian to believe in free will and the scriptures that directly contradict the existence of free will.

      The only hypocrite is you, moron. Too bad your bible is too inconsistent for you to believe all of it. You can blame your stupid god for writing such crap so ridiculous that a sensible person can believe all of it without being a hypocrite. Oh, and you're a pathological liar, too.

      May 14, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Science

      How did feathers evolve? – Carl Zimmer

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPLgfGX1I5Y&w=640&h=360]

      May 15, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
  5. Anon

    A gay christian is like being a black klansman. Just enjoy life without relying on backwards primitive desert myths.

    May 13, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
    • News for you

      I will date who I want, when I want, where I want. I will also pray to whom and what I want, when I want and where I want. I will have any interpretation of my own spirituality and my own love life and if you don't like it you can just keep on posting on belief blog because at the end of the day you are not living inside my mind..I am.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • The Stunningly Unfrightening Zombie Apocalypse of the Boneless Chickens

      You are indeed entitled to worship the invisible friend of your choice.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Destroy Religion NOW

      AAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!
      BONELESS ZOMBIE CHICKENS EVERYWHERE!!!
      AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
      (pass me the salt, would you? Thanks.)

      May 13, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
    • faith

      "News for you
      I will date who I want, when I want, where I want. I will also pray to whom and what I want, when I want and where I want. I will have any interpretation of my own spirituality and my own love life and if you don't like it you can just keep on posting on belief blog because at the end of the day you are not living inside my mind..I am."

      that is fine. just don't preach that garbage at me girlfriend

      May 13, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • Anon

      News for you: Tell your god to go screw himself with a bible.

      May 20, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
  6. The real Tom

    Even Chard is not as disgusting as Heaven Sent. She lies, she judges, she condemns, she lies some more. She lies about what others have posted; she lies about what the bible says; she lies about her own failures and her own sins. She is the biggest hypocrite here.

    May 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • Confused

      I thought she was the biggest cameltoe here.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm |
    • The real Tom

      That, too.

      She's STILL lying. She's claiming I'm using other names because she can't bear the idea that anyone who posts here can see how many people are truly fed up with her and her lying. She lies about people using "dummy handles" because that's what she does. She has to. If she posted under HeavenSent every time, it would be obvious that she never leaves the computer to do anything else.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
    • Obviously

      She thinks other people do it because she does it.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • .

      The real dummy handle is HeavenSent. She's the biggest dummy I've ever seen!

      May 13, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • tallulah13

      HS really is a horrible, unpleasant person. I pity anyone who is forced to deal with her in real life.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Which is exactly why she was fired from her job. No one could stand to work with such a nasty person. Can you imagine her in an office? A lab? A school? A department store? I can't think of a single job someone like that could possibly do well. She was a miserable cow to everyone around her and finally got shown the door.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      HS is a zealot. Chad is dishonest. I find dishonesty more repugnant.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
    • The Stunningly Unfrightening Zombie Apocalypse of the Boneless Chickens

      Miss HavershamSent has no contact with the outside world anymore. She and her corpse pets live (okay, she only thinks the corpse pets are still alive) sealed behind the now-impenetrable walls of K-Tel products she has hoarded over the decades. It is virtually impossible to get into her trailer home any more, and she thinks that protects her from Satan.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, you know you posts lies and write under your dummy handles to bully your way through life. I'd say you prove what a BAITER is and does.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      tallulah13 believes telling her Jesus' truth hurts her iddy biddy feelings and confuses all satan's lies she hold dear to her stone heart. Boo, hoo, I'll throw you in a crying towel for all those fake tears you'll never shed.

      May 14, 2013 at 2:02 am |
  7. Justin Lee

    In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all. I have learned the error of my ways, and I have since matured into a Christian know-it-all

    May 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Justin Lee

      You said, "In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all. I have learned the error of my ways, and I have since matured into a Christian know-it-all"
      Growing older is mandatory, growing up not so much.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LinCA, Christians mature, unbelievers chronologically age. That's the difference between listening to Jesus' truth and spiritually growing versus listening to satan's lies, and being spiritually stunted on earth as you will be when you return to Jesus to hear His truth for summer school for 1000 years in Heaven.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
  8. TheRationale

    Here's how it goes. Anti gay Christians realize some "truer" message of God when they or someone close to them turns out to be gay. The "proper" version of Christianity magically changes.

    This is how it's gone with everything – Jews, slavery, women, science, the Bible being in something aside from Latin – you name it. And eventually a more enlightened and Jesusier interpretation is decided upon by the majority and that's what it is. Mind you the book "hasn't changed."

    Sensible people are atheists.

    May 13, 2013 at 8:57 pm |
    • ..

      What a sensible post!

      May 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      TheRatonale, as usual, you believe satan's lies and Christians hear His lies and tune them out by doing what we are suppose to do. Loving and following Jesus' truth. Therefore, NO cigar or eternity for you.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • ..

      As usual, MissHaverSent has satan on her mind, and ignores any coherent post that she doesn't understand. Stupid old hag.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:17 pm |
    • Athy

      You hit nail on the head, Rational. It'll be fun to watch how the mindless religies respond.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Miserable as usual Tommy Tom. No matter what dummy you hide behind can't disguise the venom you spew.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      TheRationale, correction, atheist are lost due to listening to satan's lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • Saraswati

      I have known many quite intelligent and rational Christians, but I don't believe I've ever met one of these who actually believed in Satan as anything more than a symbol for evil. It's funny, because I could imagine a perfectly sound system with two gods, Satan and "God,", fighting it out, but I guess the equality isn't acceptable to Christians so they have to trist themselves like pretzels to make the Satan thing work. Hence the utter loonies who go for this idea. It's a good thing Hollywood generally goes for what amounts to the epic 2 god battle story as that makes a much more interesting tale.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
    • mama k

      Oh Sarasw, I'm pretty sure the Christian religion is NOTHING without an honest-to-real Satan. One of the reasons is that several early apologists like Justin Martyr used Satan as a primary reason to explain away certain things to keep people from jumping ship.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, your Justin Martyr has no eyes to see nor ears to hear His truth. Like you, it's the blind leading the blind.

      May 14, 2013 at 2:05 am |
    • Saraswati

      @mama k,

      According to the mainstream (Gallup, Harris) polls about 30% of US Christians don't believe in Satan, and the oft quoted (but less well established) Barna survey finds a majority not believing in Satan. I'd have to say that most of the Christians with whom I have had discussions have thought of Satan as either symbolic or some sort of force or personification. It doesn't seem to be essential to their system to believe in Satan as a personal enti.ty.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:26 am |
  9. Observer

    The Bible verse you'll NEVER hear from Christian HYPOCRITES who pick on gays:

    – Matthew 7:12 “Treat others as you want them to treat you. THIS IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT.”

    May 13, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, that's love your neighbor as you love yourself. Christians are loving our neighbors. However, our neighbors are so into satan's lies you believe that when a Christian tells you Jesus' truth, it's hurtful. What is hurtful would be not telling you Jesus' truth.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:11 pm |
    • ..

      Lol@MissHaverSent. Satan around every corner. Must get crouded at her trailer.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • ..

      *crowded*

      May 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • Jesus

      The greatest trick the I ever pulled was convincing the world I am not Satan

      May 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      "Observer, that's love your neighbor as you love yourself."

      Ooops. Here's what the Bible actually says:

      TREAT others as you want them to TREAT you"

      May 13, 2013 at 10:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Q: How do you tell when an atheist lies?

      A: Their mouth is flapping with the wind.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
    • Athy

      Oh, HS, that is so funny! A very clever joke indeed! How do you come up with these little bon mots? Your IQ must be at least 80.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Athy, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!", William Shakespeare.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, reading scriptures from the KJV allows you the full meaning of His truth.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
  10. Science

    For ......you know .

    Scooby Doo on Zombie Island – It's Terror Time Again

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkNask_pMKo&w=640&h=360]

    May 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
  11. Dancing with words

    Okay, you don't like "love the sinner and hate the sin," how about, "condone the sinner not the sin "?

    May 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Contemporary Christians hijacked the phrase, and have been corrupting it ever since.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:12 pm |
    • Basically

      There is no sin. It's only your imagination.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Dance around all the man made lies you want, that quote isn't from Jesus.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:15 pm |
    • .

      Then why in the hell do you silly Christians keep using it to bash people you personally don't approve of??

      May 13, 2013 at 10:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Spot, I don't use that quote.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • Athy

      There are no quotes from Jesus. Except from my gardener who told me it's going to rain tomorrow.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:57 pm |
  12. Science

    See..............MOM AND DAD DID IT !!!.................fred .............not the red horn-y devil

    Scientists Identify Why Some Fathers Are Left Holding the Baby

    Mar. 12, 2013 — A century old mystery as to why, for some animals, it's the father rather than the mother that takes care of their young has been cracked by researchers at the University of Sheffield.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312121842.htm

    May 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Report abuse | Reply

    Science

    From another thread............

    But Sara..................the POLITICIANS...............military and police forces should know the information and understand IT !

    https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/#comments

    May 13, 2013 at 8:09 pm |
    • Science

      Oops missed podt damn thumb !

      May 13, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
    • Science

      Wow ...........2000 comments and evolving..

      May 13, 2013 at 8:17 pm |
    • koff

      Please hurry up and die.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:56 pm |
    • Science

      Hey koff............was it good ..............with that horn-y red devil ?....

      May 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
  13. Hodor

    what exactly is sin? how is being gay a sin? is being human a sin? is playing an instrument too loudly a sin? is it more than just some ethical violation? how does one know what is and is not a sin?

    May 13, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
    • Larry if Nazareth

      Sin is a theological concept. It is meaningless for seculars.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:45 pm |
  14. God says it is okay to hate and oppress

    Christianity sure has turned its followers into jackboot bigots.

    May 13, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Name call all you want. It will never negate the sins you refuse to relinquish.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:58 pm |
    • ..

      Can you give up your heterosexuality, MissHaversham? No? EXACTLY. Grow the hell up and get some education.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I've obtained my education and it doesn't consist of incorporating lies into my CV.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
  15. Observer

    For HeavenSent and all the other Christians who engage in pick-and-choose HYPOCRISY:

    – Mark 10:11-12 ““Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her and if she
    divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    Anyone ever hear a Christian tell their fellow Christians they should DIVORCE to get out of their continuous ADULTERY?

    May 13, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you'll grab at any straw than to focus on getting rid of your sins.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:01 pm |
    • midwest rail

      And contemporary Christians use gay people in exactly the same way, H.S. Constant condemnation, all the while ignoring their own transgressions. All in the name of "love".

      May 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      midwest rail, you own your own lies. I don't hate anyone.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Please show where in my post I mentioned hate. You can't, because I didn't. You own your own lies, H.S.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      I am neither gay nor an adulterer. Guess again.

      As usual, you have NOTHING to refute the TRUTH. I quoted the Bible and you can't handle it.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • ..

      Where in the hell did midwest say you did, Liarsham? He didn't. Can't comprehend the written word? We know who lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Here's the best part – H.S. will simply ignore being caught in a lie, and pretend it never happened.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      midwest rail, you posted that I "use" gay people. To use is to abuse which is hateful. I don't use or abuse anyone. Just because you don't want to hear Jesus' truth, doesn't mean that you don't need to hear His truth.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " To use is to abuse ...."
      Obfuscation in search of an excuse. Well done, hypocrite.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      midwest rail, I have the courage to be a Christian. Sorry that you don't want to make the grade.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Of course you do, you dishonest POS. You make them the villains in your little fantasy world. You need to make someone else the devil to make yourselves seem pure. You are such a disgusting, steaming pile, HS.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:26 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      midwest rail, just because I say what I mean and not what you want me to say, you accuse me of lying. Talk about being a bully, bully.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • Athy

      You don't need courage to be a christian. Lack of common sense really helps, though.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm |
    • midwest rail

      What you have is the gall to act in the exact same fashion as those you so freely criticize, and excuse your own behavior as somehow being "courageous". Laughably absurd.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm |
    • The real Tom

      No, HS. You're a liar. You have lied on here about yourself, you've lied about what others have posted, and now you're lying about your lies. You're pathetic.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom came out behind her dummy handles to spew her babble on her post. When are you going to get to Revelation 21:8 because Jesus is at the door Tommy.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm |
    • The real Tom

      The only DUMMY here is you, HS. This is the only name I use. I own it. Why don't YOU own your sh!tty, lying behavior?

      May 13, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • LinCA

      @HeavenSent

      You said, "I have the courage to be a Christian."
      It doesn't take courage. Believing the bullshit fairy tale is the easy way out. It doesn't require you to think. On the contrary, thinking is highly discouraged.

      Being a christian is for dimwits.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tommy,

      Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

      Isaiah 5:20

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, go fvck your "woe unto" crap, you cow.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      As usual, here comes the backups. Only liars need back ups.

      LinCA, I'd rather earn my courage listening to Jesus' truth than to stay lazy and cowardly, believing in satan's lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, are you a secular Jew that believes the man made lies of the talmud?

      May 13, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Are you an idiot? Oh, wait. I know the answer to that one. Listen, you ignorant tw@t, two of the finest, most loving Christians I've met are gay. They were married not too long ago in their church by a minister. They are so far beyond you and your hateful, lousy life that you don't even matter to them or anyone else who has real love for others.

      Go eat one of your dogs, you pr!ck.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • LinCA

      @HeavenSent

      You said, "I'd rather earn my courage listening to Jesus' truth than to stay lazy and cowardly, believing in satan's lies."
      There is nothing to be gained, let alone courage, by being spoon-fed the complete and utter nonsense. It takes courage to open your eyes and mind and learn about the real world. It takes courage to shed the infantile beliefs. Remaining blissfully ignorant is cowardly.

      Just FYI, your beloved satan is your god's right hand man. They are cut from the same (imaginary) cloth. They are also both equally real as the monsters under your bed.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, have you stopped twisting yourself into a pretzel? If so, I post Jesus' truth which is what we all need to hear. You just aren't used to His truth because you've been conditioned by satan's lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LinCA, utter nonsense is the big bang or evolution theories. Utter nonsense is to believe the lies you were born a certain way. Need I have to spit out all the babble you folks buy in to?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
  16. A viewer

    Is Austin here?

    May 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • Bugs

      No, you should have made a left toin at Albukoykee.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:50 pm |
    • tallulah13

      That was beautiful, bugs.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • Daffy

      No, no! I'm the star here!
      My contract spethifickally states I am to have top billing!
      Don't listen to Bugs, he isn't supposed to be here.
      Look over here, where my new friend Abdul has left me a present for my birthd–BOOM!
      ....
      Make-up! Freshen this up!

      May 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm |
  17. Proverbs 29:11

    🙂

    May 13, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • Randy

      That is a nice verse to memorize!

      May 13, 2013 at 7:39 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Proverbs 29:16 When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increaseth: but the righteous shall see their fall.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:55 pm |
    • The Distressing Inability of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken to Pull the Ripcord

      "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." Book of Shrubs 4:35-12

      May 13, 2013 at 7:58 pm |
    • Proverbs 29:16

      Good verse, Lionlylamb
      🙂

      May 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
    • John Cleese

      Good verse, Poor Cluckles. 🙂

      May 13, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
  18. NYC

    Illus.: “When Blind Eyes Were Opened”

    D.L. Moody, the famed evangelist, told this story at one of his meetings: One evening just before Christmas, a man was walking through the streets of an Eastern city. The store windows were all beautifully decorated, and he observed three little girls intensely interested in one of them. He discovered that the girl in the center was blind, and the others were trying to describe the beautiful things in the window. “Why,” they said, “can’t you see that Teddy bear and that doll? Just look at that pretty pink bow!”
    But the poor little girl stood with a blank expression on her face and could not appreciate the beautiful things before her. “Now,” said Moody, “this is an illustration of the effort we Christians are making to arouse the unconverted to an interest and delight in spiritual things. The reason we can’t do so is because the sinner is spiritually blind.” Moody had scarcely concluded when a reporter was on the platform asking him where he had heard that story. “Oh,” said Moody, “I read it in one of those daily papers. I have forgotten which one.” Then the reporter said, “I’m the one who wrote the story because I was there and saw the whole thing. I see now that I’m just like that little girl, spiritually blind.” That man was converted then and there.

    May 13, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • Yawn

      Fiction is fictional. Only a scumbag like NYC would pass off fiction as truth.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:30 pm |
    • maybe . . .

      Austintatiousness?

      May 13, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
    • Athy

      That's how I feel when trying to explain the truth to a religie. Very frustrating.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
    • ..

      "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause." Same bullshit. Oooh. "Miracle On 34th Street."

      May 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Yawn,

      When you become all grown up, then and only then will you be able to play with the big boys! Grab your shifters men! Start out in first! Slam it toward second and end up pushing it toward third! Oh what a shifter we perceive!

      May 13, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • ..

      When you learn roper English and have master grammar and syntax, liarly, then you may attempt to tell another when they are acting juvenile. You are the worst of the lot, and you have a lot of competition.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      .., you posted "When you learn roper English ..."

      Answer: Kettle pouring babble from their spout.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm |
    • ..

      A missed keystroke isn't babble, you retard, but your bull and lionly's surely is.
      Answer: MissHaversent fail.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Did this "famed evangelist" have witnesses to his little tale? Because frankly this sounds like a badly scripted, cloyingly sentimental lie.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • Yeah

      I thought it was Marjoe Gortner who fleeced his flock with that one. Or was it Jim Bakker?

      May 13, 2013 at 9:41 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tommy, you tip your dummy handles all the time, e.g. "..,A missed keystroke isn't babble, you retard, but your bull and lionly's surely is.
      Answer: MissHaversent fail."

      Answer: Only BAITERs' can't focus on content. Always staying with the superficial aspects of life. I call you SDs,

      May 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Keep right on lying, HS. Nobody believes a word you type. I don't use any other names. You're just desperate and it shows. What a pathetic loser.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, playing Matty in Body Heat, she is relentless, she keeps on coming ...

      May 15, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
  19. mama k

    I see from some of the comments and questions that some still don't have a basic education about homosexuality. Muslims lead the way as having the most uneducated, disenfranchising stance toward gays. But many Christians are not far behind. Just last week CNN reported some gays being arrested in Zambia which is a predominantly Christian nation.

    Christianity has always been conflicted on social issues, but this current hot topic really highlights the extremism within Christianity. One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one (over four million members) in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage. Thomas Jefferson hit the nail on the head over 200 years ago:

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    (from Notes on the State of Virginia, 1785)

    Some claim that Christianity and science are not incompatible, yet we find many who continue to ignore current scientific knowledge on the issue of homosexuality. Is the problem poor education, steadfastness to one's own flavor of biblical interpretation, or both?

    Whatever your religion, whatever your belief, with gay marriage coming quickly to the U.S., now is the time to at least have a basic education about homosexuality.

    The following is long, but note the quote from Professor MIchael King below in the section on psychology.
    =====================================================
    Psychology

    The American Psychological Association states "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people", and says most people's sexual orientation is determined at an early age. Research into how sexual orientation in males may be determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises concerns about genetic profiling and prenatal testing."

    Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."

    The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

    "Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."

    Biology

    The following is from the article:

    Homosexuality ultimately a result of gene regulation, researchers find (12/11/2012 – LiveScience)

    [ The search for a "gay gene" may be off-target, new research finds. Another process called epigenetics that switches genes on and off may explain why homosexuality runs in families.

    Epigenetics are heritable changes caused by factors other than DNA. Instead of traits getting passed down through the genes, epigenetic change happens because of the way genes are regulated, or turned on and off.

    These genetic regulators may be the reason homosexuality persists in nature despite the fact that gay people are less likely to reproduce, suggests the new study published in the journal The Quarterly Review of Biology.

    "These things have evolved because they're good for the parents, but they sometimes, not [with] high frequency, but sometimes carry over" into offspring, study researcher William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, told LiveScience. In a male fetus, Rice and his colleagues write, an epigenetic change that benefited the mother may lead to "feminization" of sexual preference — homo- or bisexuality. The same may be true for epigenetic changes passed down by dad to a female fetus. (The terms feminization and masculinization of sexual preference refer to sexual orientation only — not to physical or personality traits of the offspring.)

    The findings add to past research suggesting gay men haven't died out, because female relatives of gay men tend to have more children on average than other females. The study researchers specifically found that two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

    Hormones, epigenetics and orientation

    Rice and his colleagues focused on epi-marks, which are molecular changes that act like temporary "switches" to turn genes on and off. If a gene is a blueprint, the epi-mark is the construction foreman who makes sure the product gets built. An epi-mark also determines when, where and how much a gene is expressed, according to the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis.

    These molecular switches are usually erased very early in the developmental process, but they can be passed down from generation to generation, too, Rice said.

    Some epi-marks are particularly important during fetal development, when they promote normal physical development in the sexes despite natural variations in testosterone during pregnancy. Researchers know that fetal exposure to too much testosterone can masculinize the genitals, brain or behavior of a genetically female fetus. Likewise, too little testosterone can make a genetically male fetus more feminized.

    But here's the catch: There's lots of overlap between the levels of testosterone male and female fetuses get exposed to. That means there must be another side to the story, Rice and his colleagues wrote.

    That side appears to be epigenetics, Rice said.

    "Early in development, we think these epi-marks are laid down so that girl fetuses will be relatively insensitive to testosterone and male fetuses will be relatively sensitive to testosterone," Rice said.

    Biological behavior

    Thus, if an epi-mark that kept a mother from getting exposed to high testosterone in development gets passed on to her son — the opposite sex — it could desensitize him to testosterone, contributing to his sexual preference for men. Similarly, if a male-specific epi-mark from dad gets passed to a daughter, it could "masculinize" her sexual preference, making her more interested in women.

    These findings could explain why twin studies show that homosexuality runs in families, but no "gay gene" can be found, Rice said. In identical twins, there's about a 20 percent chance that if one twin is gay, the other will be too. If genetic change were responsible for homosexuality, you'd expect a much higher match, Rice said. Epigenetics, however, can explain the heritability without the need for a specific genetic change.

    The hypothesis could be tested by examining epigenetic marks in parents of kids with gay versus straight offspring, Rice said. There are, of course, concerns that this knowledge could be used by parents who want to avoid gay offspring, Rice said, but that concern already exists around certain hormonal conditions in utero, which are known to contribute to an increased chance of offspring being lesbians.

    "That cat's already out of the bag," Rice said. He added that an understanding of the biological underpinnings of homosexuality could help emphasize that same-sex behavior is not "unnatural."

    "In fact, it's a major part of the natural world," Rice said. Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs, he pointed out. And 8 percent of male sheep show zero interest in fertile ewes, but get sexually excited by other rams. ]
    =====================================================

    May 13, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • Science

      News Release when will they understand the facts .......mama k ?

      3-D structure of the evolved enzyme (an RNA ligase), using 10 overlaid snapshots. In the top region, the overlays show the range of bending and folding flexibility in the amino acid chain that forms the molecule. The two gray balls are zinc ions. (University of Minnesota)

      University of Minnesota researchers unveil first artificial enzyme created by evolution in a test tube

      Media Note: To request high resolution images of Dr. Seelig and/or of a 3D structure of the evolved enzyme, please contact Matt Hodson at mjhodson@umn.edu.

      Contacts:Matt Hodson, University News Service, mjhodson@umn.edu, (612) 625-0552
      Peggy Rinard, College of Biological Sciences, rinar001@umn.edu, (612) 624-0774

      May 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
    • Science

      Oh I see the old gray balls don't want to figure it out ?

      May 13, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • Science

      See..............MOM AND DAD DID IT !!!

      Scientists Identify Why Some Fathers Are Left Holding the Baby

      Mar. 12, 2013 — A century old mystery as to why, for some animals, it's the father rather than the mother that takes care of their young has been cracked by researchers at the University of Sheffield.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312121842.htm

      May 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Report abuse | Reply

      Science

      From another thread............

      But Sara..................the POLITICIANS...............military and police forces should know the information and understand IT !

      https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/#comments

      May 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k's babble refusing to admit that satan deceives the entire world and that's why we shouldn't listen and believe his lies.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:13 pm |
    • .

      HS x n = BS

      (for any value of n

      May 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
    • Science

      HS.............was it good ..............with that horn-y red devil ?

      May 13, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • ..

      Mama k needs to keep reposting until inbreds like MissHaverSent gets educated enough to know that "satan" has nothing more to do with people being born gay than "satan" has with her propensity to hoard cats.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • tallulah13

      chihuahuas, dude. Please don't drag cats into it. Miss Heaversham is far too controlling to have cats.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      You know the post is a lie when all the dummy handles come in to do their bully routine of forcing others who know Jesus' wisdom to believe in satan's lies that they hold dear to their rock hearts.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm |
    • Wonder wonder

      What makes your handle not a "dummy" handle?

      May 13, 2013 at 9:58 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      HS, How is asking for evidence of what you post bullying?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @HeavenSent,

      Could you just clarify the whole Satan's lies thing for me? Satan lies to trick people and those dumb enoguh to be tricked end up with him? I'm assuming, though, that your god doesn't punish just for gullibility alone. Is this another one of those deals where only those with the pure hearts aren't tricked? Then it seems that god wants these lies around to filter out the riff raff, right? So isn't it god's work to help spread the lies, and it's all ultimately god's doing, or am I missing some of the logic here?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Saraswati,

      And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

      Revelation 12:9

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Science

      Hey HS...............you better talk to the old pope he kicked the angels with pitch forks off the team last Xmas........

      ..........but the morals are where..............with a talking snake in the grass ?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:15 am |
    • Science

      Hey HS.............simple math.................ALL these years there are suppose to be angels with pitch forks..................

      then last Xmas................poof they are gone.............the old pope wiped them out !

      Well what about the children HS ..............no more angels ?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:24 am |
    • Science

      Here is the deal HS................there has never been any angels ............or is that to simple to understand ?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:52 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Science, you can't prove that. Funny though, scientists keep looking for the angels. They call them aliens.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
  20. 1Samuel

    While crossing the Atlantic on an ocean liner, F.B. Meyer was asked to speak to the first class passengers. At the captain’s request he spoke on “Answered Prayer.” An agnostic who was present at the service was asked by his friends, “What did you think of Dr. Meyer’s sermon?” “I didn’t believe a word of it,” he answered. That afternoon Meyer went to speak to the fourth-class passengers. Many of the listeners at his morning address went along, including the agnostic, who claimed he just wanted to hear “What the babbler had to say.” Before starting for the service, the agnostic put two oranges in his pocket. On his way he passed an elderly woman sitting in her deck chair fast asleep. Her hands were open. In the spirit of fun, the agnostic put the two oranges in her open hand. After the meeting, he saw the old lady happily eating one of the oranges. “You seem to be enjoying that orange,” he said with a smile. “Yes, sir,” she replied, “My Father is very good to me.” “Your father? Surely your father can’t still be alive!” “Praise God,” she replied, “He is very much alive. I’ve been seasick for days. I was asking God somehow to send me an orange. I suppose I fell asleep while I was praying. When I awoke, I found He had not only sent me one orange, but two!” The agnostic was speechless.

    May 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • Yawn

      When you don't have truth, invent a stupid story like this one and pretend it's reality

      May 13, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • ..

      What a bunch of pure, raw, unadulterated bullshit. This is just as bad as the squish kitty dreams, and have as much to do with God as a squashed cat does.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF FICTION

      Austintation ism

      May 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
    • Definition Time:

      Gnostic meaning to know
      Agnostic meaning to not know
      Atheist one who does not believe in a god or gods/supernatural due to no evidence
      Theist one who believes in a god or gods.

      btw: the fact that he happened to walk by and performed a good will gesture to an elderly lady is only a coincidence...story is a little far fetched though

      May 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      1Samuel, great post.

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Definition time, Jesus = truth about life and the hereafter.

      Revelation 21:8

      Amen.

      May 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm |
    • koff

      Anyone who has read books about ocean travel know that there are no secrets aboard a ship. Any woman would have been spied upon 24 / 7. Any prayers she said out loud would have spread like wildfire throughout the ship.
      So much for your "shocked agnostic" BS propaganda. Go die in a fire, liar.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:04 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So are we supposed to be inspired by your made up stories?

      Here's a religious story that really inspired me: In Brazil, a 9-year-old child became pregnant with twins after her step-father repeatedly raped her. Her 80-pound body could not safely support the fetuses, so her devoutly catholic mother and doctors decided that she must have an abortion in order to save her life.

      In response, the bishop who oversaw the area excommunicated the mother and the doctors. The vactican supported that decision. The rapist, however, remains in good standing with the church.

      And look: I even have a link to the story so you know it's true.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/world/europe/08vatican.html?_r=0

      May 13, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • Destroy Religion NOW

      From the NY Times article:
      “God’s law is above any human law,” Archbishop Cardoso said Thursday."
      ------------------------------–
      THIS is the attitude so many religious people have regarding laws throughout the world.
      It is the declaration of a criminal.
      It is a declaration that he will commit any crime and justify it later using his religion.

      This is why ALL RELIGION MUST BE DESTROYED.
      We all know that religious people all interpret their religions however they like whenever they want to justify any crime.
      We all know that they also use religion to avoid being held accountable for their crimes whenever possible.
      We also know that religions are nothing more than propaganda machines used to brainwash victims to turn them into slaves.
      Religious brainwashing turns most of them into brain-damaged cult members who are then defrauded and scammed as deeply as possible by those who profit from religion.

      "“God’s law is above any human law,”
      They intend to destroy every secular nation, strip everyone of every right, murder anyone they want, rape millions more children, extort, blackmail, defraud, terrorize, con, assault, harass, stalk, steal, lie, and cheat anyone they can get their hands on.
      They subvert the laws in every nation. Distort and destroy any rational framework of society they come across.
      To justify their crimes, they have thousands of excuses handy, no matter what the crime was.
      Excuses they made up using the fairy-tales of their religion, deliberately pretending that their god has commanded them to commit these crimes against humanity.
      But they've never heard from or seen anything real from their deities. They have to make everything up from scratch using their religious dogma as a catch-all excuse.
      There should be no religious freedom anywhere in the world. All religions should be destroyed for the brainwashing scams they really are.
      They will refuse to follow any law if they think their god supports their crimes.
      This is how terrorists work.
      This is how the vast majority of violence in the world HAPPENS.
      If you think your god is a sadist who thinks its okay to beat women and children to death, YOU WILL DO IT.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.