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May 11th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

My Take: ‘Gay Christian’ is not an oxymoron

Editor’s note: Justin Lee is the Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network and author of Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate.

By Justin Lee, Special to CNN

(CNN)–In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all.

My nickname was "God boy," and I was known for regularly preaching at my friends about social issues of the day. I dismissed their objections - and accusations of homophobia - as intolerance for my faith.

"I'm just telling you what God's Word says," I'd argue.

Years later I realized my mistake. What my peers most objected to wasn't my beliefs - it was my condescending attitude. I debated and preached when I should have listened. I thought that stating my position loudly and unyieldingly was a sign of strength. In the process, I alienated my friends.

I'm still an evangelical Christian, but one thing is now crystal clear to me. American evangelicals' bad reputation isn't just because of what we believe. It's mostly because of how we behave.

When ESPN commentator Chris Broussard was criticized for saying that openly gay NBA player Jason Collins was “openly rebelling against God,” some evangelicals argued that conservative theological views are no longer tolerated in America.

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But they're missing the point.

Broussard's language didn't just express a religious view about sexual morality; it referred to gay people in ways that were dehumanizing, reducing all gay people's lives to a single sex act. Other outspoken Christians routinely say even worse things, comparing gay people to pedophiles, for example.

No one is immune from criticism in a free country with diverse beliefs. But if Christians feel particularly singled out at times, I'd argue that our perceived lack of empathy for others is largely to blame.

I can often test a Christian's level of empathy by offering a single admission: When I was 18, I realized that I'm gay.

Empathetic Christians are typically intrigued by such a statement, even if they also question how a conservative Southern Baptist could also be openly gay. They want to know about my struggles, how my family and church responded, and whether I ever feel my faith and sexuality are at odds with one another.

I love these questions, because they show that the other person genuinely sees me as a human being.

But far too often, Christians respond not with curiosity and questions but with politics and preaching.

They quote Bible passages at me, make assumptions about my faith, or tell me why they’re opposed to same-sex marriage.

I'm no longer a person to them; I'm a symbol of a culture war. A battlefield. And when I don't want to be treated that way, they assume I'm turning away because I didn't really want to hear the truth.

This kind of behavior is why so many of my LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) friends want nothing to do with the church.

But it's not only them.

In my book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," I share the story of Cindy, a conservative evangelical mom whose life was thrown into turmoil when her son told her he was gay.

This wasn't a political question for Cindy; it was a personal one. But the dehumanizing rhetoric about gay people she heard from the pulpit made her afraid to talk to anyone at church about her son's sexuality.

Christians are not a monolithic group. I know many empathetic Christians, including many who speak up regularly for their LGBT brothers and sisters.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The loudest megaphones do not speak for the rest of us, but they are still loud, and legion. To them I say: Gay people are not an issue. We're people. Some of us are Christians, too. And if it disturbs you that I refer to myself as both gay and Christian, I invite you to take the time to get to know me, and read what I write. You don't have to agree, and you might think I’m a sinner, but at least you’ll see me as a human being.

Baptist minister and author Tony Campolo quips that Jesus entreated Christians not to "love the sinner and hate the sin," but to "love the sinner and hate your own sin."

Jesus saved his harshest words for the self-righteously devout and chose the outcasts and sinners as his closest friends.

Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Justin Lee.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Homosexuality • Opinion

soundoff (3,629 Responses)
  1. faith

    "Observer
    faith,
    Are you saying that you are battling lung cancer right now?"

    have you studied 1 corinthians 12 -14?

    i don't claim 2 no how much time you have left

    May 14, 2013 at 11:44 pm |
    • Observer

      Corinthians contains such nonsense as "For if a woman does not cover her head (while praying), let her also have her hair cut off” so it's hard to take anything in it seriously.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, covering her head means to keep Jesus' truth in her mind.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      "Observer, covering her head means to keep Jesus' truth in her mind."

      So shaving her head would make it FAR more difficult to keep "Jesus' truth in her mind". So much for reason and logic. Like I said, Corinthians contains nonsense.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:25 am |
    • Athy

      The whole bible is basically nonsense. Why do so many people cling to it as if it were the most important thing in their lives? Serious delusions that must be stamped out.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:41 am |
    • faith

      "Athy
      The whole bible is basically nonsense. Why do so many people cling to it as if it were the most important thing in their lives? Serious delusions that must be stamped out."

      if u were not a fool, u would find out.

      the indescribable joy of being connected with the one it describes

      he proves he is real to everyone who seeks him with all of her strength and heart and soul.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:47 am |
    • faith

      it was cultural

      find a criticism and dwell on it with your whole being, please. that's all you're missing

      May 15, 2013 at 12:49 am |
    • Observer

      faith,

      Keep calling people "fools". Just more proof of hypocrisy.

      – Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with their brother or sister will be in danger of judgment. If they say to their brother or sister, ‘You idiot,’ they will be in danger of being condemned by the governing council. And if they say, ‘You fool,’ they will be in danger of fiery hell.” - Jesus

      May 15, 2013 at 12:52 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, I didn't read anger in her post. She used the description of what Jesus declared you to be.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:02 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Athy, you posted "The whole bible is basically nonsense. Why do so many people cling to it as if it were the most important thing in their lives? Serious delusions that must be stamped out."

      Answer: Your question should be, when will Jesus become the most important person in my life?

      May 15, 2013 at 1:06 am |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      You didn't read it too well.

      "if u were not a fool, u would find out".

      May 15, 2013 at 1:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, did you post your answer to your question to me on the Prophets and law in the NT?

      May 15, 2013 at 1:20 am |
    • Observer

      – Matthew 7:12 “Treat others as you want them to treat you. THIS IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT.” [Jesus]

      May 15, 2013 at 1:25 am |
    • Ninja DoomBunnies Are Go!!!

      In case you haven't figured it out, Observer, HavershamSent is into virtual S&M. She DOES want to be treated as bad as she treat others. It hurts so good to her.

      She is obeying that, in her perverse way!

      May 15, 2013 at 2:30 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you posted "- Matthew 7:12 “Treat others as you want them to treat you. THIS IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT.” [Jesus]"

      ANSWER: You'd get the true understanding of His words if you read the KJV, Other versions leave out important truth's of Jesus.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      HS, Who decided that the KJV was the definitive bible and if it is why do we still have other versions? Just shows how unreliable the bible is – first they evolve into so many versions that they have to standardize and then they can't agree and again evolve into multiple versions.

      May 15, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      In Santa we trust, the KJV allows the reader to search back to the scrolls to check for accuracy. Newer English versions lose important teachings that the reader doesn't realize there is missing truth.

      May 15, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ninja,

      Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

      Isaiah 5:20

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • The real Tom

      There's nothing "evil" about being gay. It's no more evil than being straight. Get over it, HS. Do you really think you're going to scare somebody straight with your silly threats? Has that EVER worked?

      May 15, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • Saraswati

      HS wrote: "Observer, covering her head means to keep Jesus' truth in her mind."

      Are you serious or joking HS?

      May 15, 2013 at 7:22 pm |
    • G to the T

      "ANSWER: You'd get the true understanding of His words if you read the KJV, Other versions leave out important truth's of Jesus" – Ah. A "KJV Only-ist". It never ceases to amaze me when christians claim the infalibility of the bible and then most of them cannot decide which one is the infallible one...

      May 17, 2013 at 10:54 am |
  2. Alias

    There are so many things the bible calls abominations, why do the christian ignore so many but cling so tightly their hatred of gays?

    May 14, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      How many times and how many ways does a Christian have to tell unbelievers that g-ays don't have the franchise on sin. Could it be, like your post, you start the dialogue?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • mama k

      That didn't really answer the question, did it, HS? Want to try again?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      "How many times and how many ways does a Christian have to tell unbelievers that g-ays don't have the franchise on sin'

      Standard Christian policy for hypocrites: "We are all sinners. Now let's ignore all my sins and my fellow Christians' sins and talk about others like gays or pretend the Bible mentions abortion"

      May 14, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, first, you have never met every Christian in the world. Therefore, your belief of what you think they say or don't say holds no water.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, you posted "That didn't really answer the question, did it, HS? Want to try again?"

      Answer: How many times do I have to post why I came on this blog. It has nothing to do with the sins of the world, it has to do with sociopaths of the world and what makes them tick and why they reject Jesus' truth.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      So with your totally ridiculous logic, you should never comment on atheists until you've met them all.

      Do you do any thinking at all before commenting?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
    • Athy

      Who the fuck is this Jesus fellow, and why do you think he tells the truth? Did he take a polygraph test? Enlighten us, please.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:20 pm |
    • mama k

      so HS, how can you find out "what makes them tick" if you don't engage and directly answer question?

      Want to try again?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:29 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I can't think of much of anything that originated with "Jesus" that can be shown to be true.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, you posted "so HS, how can you find out "what makes them tick" if you don't engage and directly answer question?

      Want to try again?"

      Answer: Are you stepping up to the plate mama k and admitting you are an antisocial personality or are you still on the g-ay issue? If it's my opinion about g-ay folks, my opinion has been posted more times than I care to count on this blog.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • .

      Ok I get it...HeavenSent and faith are the same crazy sociopathic whackjob. Bit.ch needs her head seen to.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:45 pm |
    • faith

      "Alias
      There are so many things the bible calls abominations, why do the christian ignore so many but cling so tightly their hatred of gays?"

      amen. let's focus on u

      c "the life of pi" yesterday

      May 14, 2013 at 11:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you posted "HeavenSent, So with your totally ridiculous logic, you should never comment on atheists until you've met them all.

      Do you do any thinking at all before commenting?"

      Answer: All the atheists that I personally know don't hate Jesus and never get into debates of why they don't have faith. They also don't have a hidden agenda that they are trying to make fly.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      . , you posted "Ok I get it...HeavenSent and faith are the same crazy sociopathic whackjob. Bit.ch needs her head seen to."

      Answer: Could you be anymore antisocial if you tried?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent

      "All the atheists that I personally know don't hate Jesus and never get into debates of why they don't have faith. They also don't have a hidden agenda that they are trying to make fly."

      Excusing the "debates" since this is a forum expecting debates, you are talking about most of the atheists and agnostics on here.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:58 pm |
    • mama k

      No, HS, my question goes back to the original question at the root post which you never directly answered. Maybe if you attempted a direct answer to that question, you could have avoided subsequent misunderstandings about said post.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:59 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      mama k, my answer is the first post underneath the question. Just because you don't like my answer gives you a "too bad for you" response.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you posted "HeavenSent, "All the atheists that I personally know don't hate Jesus and never get into debates of why they don't have faith. They also don't have a hidden agenda that they are trying to make fly."

      Excusing the "debates" since this is a forum expecting debates, you are talking about most of the atheists and agnostics on here.

      Answer: Again, you have me repeating my response on agnostics and atheist allowing antisocial personalities to move easily in your crowd as well as in society today. But, you are too caught up in ego to care.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:12 am |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,
      "antisocial personalities to move easily in your crowd as well as in society today. But, you are too caught up in ego to care."

      There are antisocial personalities everywhere. Domestic religious terrorists kill legal abortion doctors. The Phelps wackos disgrace America. Christian hypocrites try to force their religion on others and deny fellow Americans of equal rights.

      It works both ways. Get real.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:34 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, granted, antisocial personalities walk on all paths in life, your crowd gave them the excuse to stay lazy while they hide.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:36 am |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent,

      "Observer, granted, antisocial personalities walk on all paths in life, your crowd gave them the excuse to stay lazy while they hide."

      And your crowd gives them the excuse that killings and denying others their rights is being "righteous".

      May 15, 2013 at 1:41 am |
    • Mark From Middle River

      >>>"Domestic religious terrorists kill legal abortion doctors"

      Last abortion doctor that was killed was in 2009 and he was killed while in service at his church. Since 1993 only six have been killed. More people die in regular murders for Air Jordans. While all life lost is a tragic, when does it cross into terrorism?

      May 15, 2013 at 1:46 am |
    • Observer

      Mark From Middle River

      "While all life lost is a tragic, when does it cross into terrorism?"

      Terrorism is harming people with the intent of scaring others.

      May 15, 2013 at 2:07 am |
    • Ninja DoomBunnies Are Go!!!

      The threat is enough for it to be considered terrorist. For example, if Osama bin Laden or Jesus says "Do what I tell you or I will hurt you really bad for a long time", it's terrorism.

      May 15, 2013 at 2:32 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, you posted "Mark From Middle River,"While all life lost is a tragic, when does it cross into terrorism?" "Terrorism is harming people with the intent of scaring others."

      Question: Observer, you truly believe that terrorist are intending to scare others? Scaring others is the last thing on their minds.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
    • Saraswati

      HS: "How many times and how many ways does a Christian have to tell unbelievers that g-ays don't have the franchise on sin."

      We all get this as your claim. The problem is that many Christians do not take the same action regarding all sin. Why aren't Christians out there trying to enact laws that prevent divorced women from marrying, for instance? If your comrades actions actually followed their words we might believe them.

      May 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
  3. mama k

    I see from some of the comments and questions that some still don't have a basic education about homosexuality. Muslims lead the way as having the most uneducated, disenfranchising stance toward gays. But many Christians are not far behind. Just last week CNN reported some gays being arrested in Zambia which is a predominantly Christian nation.

    Christianity has always been conflicted on social issues, but this current hot topic really highlights the extremism within Christianity. One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one (over four million members) in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage. Thomas Jefferson hit the nail on the head over 200 years ago:

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    (from Notes on the State of Virginia, 1785)

    Some claim that Christianity and science are not incompatible, yet we find many who continue to ignore current scientific knowledge on the issue of homosexuality. Is the problem poor education, steadfastness to one's own flavor of biblical interpretation, or both?

    Whatever your religion, whatever your belief, with gay marriage coming quickly to the U.S., now is the time to at least have a basic education about homosexuality.

    The following is long, but note the quote from Professor MIchael King below in the section on psychology.
    ==========================================
    Psychology

    The American Psychological Association states "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people", and says most people's sexual orientation is determined at an early age. Research into how sexual orientation in males may be determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises concerns about genetic profiling and prenatal testing."

    Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."

    The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

    "Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."

    Biology

    The following is from the article:

    Homosexuality ultimately a result of gene regulation, researchers find (12/11/2012 – LiveScience)

    [ The search for a "gay gene" may be off-target, new research finds. Another process called epigenetics that switches genes on and off may explain why homosexuality runs in families.

    Epigenetics are heritable changes caused by factors other than DNA. Instead of traits getting passed down through the genes, epigenetic change happens because of the way genes are regulated, or turned on and off.

    These genetic regulators may be the reason homosexuality persists in nature despite the fact that gay people are less likely to reproduce, suggests the new study published in the journal The Quarterly Review of Biology.

    "These things have evolved because they're good for the parents, but they sometimes, not [with] high frequency, but sometimes carry over" into offspring, study researcher William Rice, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, told LiveScience. In a male fetus, Rice and his colleagues write, an epigenetic change that benefited the mother may lead to "feminization" of sexual preference — homo- or bisexuality. The same may be true for epigenetic changes passed down by dad to a female fetus. (The terms feminization and masculinization of sexual preference refer to sexual orientation only — not to physical or personality traits of the offspring.)

    The findings add to past research suggesting gay men haven't died out, because female relatives of gay men tend to have more children on average than other females. The study researchers specifically found that two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

    Hormones, epigenetics and orientation

    Rice and his colleagues focused on epi-marks, which are molecular changes that act like temporary "switches" to turn genes on and off. If a gene is a blueprint, the epi-mark is the construction foreman who makes sure the product gets built. An epi-mark also determines when, where and how much a gene is expressed, according to the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis.

    These molecular switches are usually erased very early in the developmental process, but they can be passed down from generation to generation, too, Rice said.

    Some epi-marks are particularly important during fetal development, when they promote normal physical development in the sexes despite natural variations in testosterone during pregnancy. Researchers know that fetal exposure to too much testosterone can masculinize the genitals, brain or behavior of a genetically female fetus. Likewise, too little testosterone can make a genetically male fetus more feminized.

    But here's the catch: There's lots of overlap between the levels of testosterone male and female fetuses get exposed to. That means there must be another side to the story, Rice and his colleagues wrote.

    That side appears to be epigenetics, Rice said.

    "Early in development, we think these epi-marks are laid down so that girl fetuses will be relatively insensitive to testosterone and male fetuses will be relatively sensitive to testosterone," Rice said.

    Biological behavior

    Thus, if an epi-mark that kept a mother from getting exposed to high testosterone in development gets passed on to her son — the opposite sex — it could desensitize him to testosterone, contributing to his sexual preference for men. Similarly, if a male-specific epi-mark from dad gets passed to a daughter, it could "masculinize" her sexual preference, making her more interested in women.

    These findings could explain why twin studies show that homosexuality runs in families, but no "gay gene" can be found, Rice said. In identical twins, there's about a 20 percent chance that if one twin is gay, the other will be too. If genetic change were responsible for homosexuality, you'd expect a much higher match, Rice said. Epigenetics, however, can explain the heritability without the need for a specific genetic change.

    The hypothesis could be tested by examining epigenetic marks in parents of kids with gay versus straight offspring, Rice said. There are, of course, concerns that this knowledge could be used by parents who want to avoid gay offspring, Rice said, but that concern already exists around certain hormonal conditions in utero, which are known to contribute to an increased chance of offspring being lesbians.

    "That cat's already out of the bag," Rice said. He added that an understanding of the biological underpinnings of homosexuality could help emphasize that same-sex behavior is not "unnatural."

    "In fact, it's a major part of the natural world," Rice said. Fourteen percent of Western gulls raise chicks in female-female pairs, he pointed out. And 8 percent of male sheep show zero interest in fertile ewes, but get sexually excited by other rams. ]
    ==========================================

    May 14, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Science

      mama k the little red devils and that damn beVrooooooom...............se-x education does it work for creationists

      and ID believers ?

      Peace

      May 15, 2013 at 9:45 am |
    • Science

      Oops.....................BedVroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom

      May 15, 2013 at 9:47 am |
  4. PRISM 1234

    There is no such thing as a "Gay" Christian, if he/she is practicing that lifestyle. It needs to be pointed out that one can have h-se-xual inclinations, but it is different from practicing it and claiming that there is nothing wrong with it. This kind of person will only sink deeper into depravity.
    Anyone who knows our Creator, the Father of Lord Jesus Christ and is born of His Spirit, KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS that to practice this lifestyle is abomination in His sight.
    We all as human beings are fallen creatures and we have sinful inclinations. If it were not for the grace and mercy of God we all would wallow in a pig-pan.
    But it is one thing to wallow in a pig-pan and pleading for help, wanting to get out, and yet another to justify oneself staying in one and loving the stench of it!
    God will never get someone out of a pig-pan if they love its stench and company in it, and so refuse to take His hand stretched out to them to get them out.... They will live and die there!

    May 14, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
    • tallulah13

      You're probably right about the bible condemning homosexuality, but kids keep being born gay, then getting indoctrinated from birth into christianity, so "gay christians" are a reality. They are actually more real than the god that hates them.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
    • Observer

      PRISM

      Skip the hypocrisy. You don't fully agree with the Bible when it comes to marriage and ignore all the HYPOCRITES welcomed by Christian churches. Get real.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tallulah, I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but, all infants are born from their mothers and don't have any concept about what they are, never mind that being attracted to one s3x or another. Therefore, can you refrain from posting lies that make excuses for your generation?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      You are guessing, deary! I Don't agree with many Christian Churches, neither do I go to any.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      HS. I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but all infants are born and don't have any concept about religion or god. Then the indoctrination comes.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • faith

      "indoctrinated" teletubby

      ain't she cute?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, did someone do something to your cornflakes this morning to make you so excited while posting?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • Observer

      PRISM,

      Are you going to try to claim that you believe everything the Bible says about marriage?

      Are you going to try to claim that you believe everything in the Bible or do you just pick and choose?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • faith

      "Observer
      PRISM
      Skip the hypocrisy. You don't fully agree with the Bible when it comes to marriage and ignore all the HYPOCRITES welcomed by Christian churches. Get real."

      thanks observer

      May 14, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • tallulah13

      HS, there is ample evidence to indicate that orientation is determined in the womb. On the other hand, there is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of any god. I realize it's pointless to point out the facts to one so obtuse as yourself, but I hate to see obvious lies go unchallenged.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      In Santa we trust, yes, our parents who loved us taught us Jesus' righteous truth. Too many children reject their parents love for them.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tallulah ,those professionals are telling your generation what you want to hear. Could it be, those professionals are cut from the same generational clothe as you? LOL.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • faith

      "tallulah13
      You're probably right about the bible condemning h om o s e x ua li ty, but kids keep being born gay, then getting indoctrinated from birth into chris tian ity, so "g a y chris tians" are a reality. They are actually more real than the god that h at es them"

      thank you teletubby. true

      May 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      Are you saying that you are battling lung cancer right now?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
    • faith

      "HeavenSent
      Observer, did someone do something to your cornflakes this morning to make you so excited while posting?"

      observers becomes several thousand gods when she's ignored. she gets downright nasty when angered. u b walkin on eggshells wit she in da room

      May 14, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
    • mama k

      So now HeavenSent, you initially denied that any state had enacted gay marriage as a result of a popular vote. When corrected you last said that voters in Maine were probably on vacation or the weather probably kept them from the polls. Would you say the same thing happened in Washington State and Maryland? Should we check the weather reports for those voting days?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      You were the one who posted the comments about dying of lung cancer. So does that apply to you or did you just take sadistic pleasure in reading about it?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Santa, you are wrong! We are born with the knowledge of God,....meaning, we have a sense of Presence of God all around us. That is being manifested by many children from early age. No doctrination or persuasion... just a sense of God's Presence. That is why satan is taking it upon himself to destroy children's innocence in times we are living in. He knows his time is short and desires to raise up generation for himself to follow him and heed to his demands/commands.
      Never before, since the Pre-Flood world, have children been so desensitized, so numbed, becoming so unnatural in every way. Even the physical development of children has changed drastically in last couple of decades. And you can be sure it is not because of what they eat, but becaue of what they take in into their minds, and what eventually becomes part of their physical and spiritual make-up. We don't live in normal world, or normal age. what we see today it was not seen since the Pre-Flood world, NOT on that scale as today. But the major characteristic of times we live in is the corruption of human character , on unprecedented scale. And corruption is irreversible. Only God, through Christ Jesus can redeem fallen human kind. And it is fo who-so-ever will . The rest is destined to perish. Do you understand that?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • faith

      "tallulah13
      HS, there is ample evidence to indicate that orientation is determined in the womb. On the other hand, there is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of any god. I realize it's pointless to point out the facts to one so obtuse as yourself, but I hate to see obvious lies go unchallenged." lol

      teletubby, r u in the mood 2 b humiliated again, 2nite? seems 2 me u r achin 4 a proper intellectual thrashin.

      btw, lil fellar, give it ur best guess. who was jesus Christ and upon what do u base your belief?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • Observer

      PRISM,

      Are you going to try to claim that you believe everything in the Bible or do you just HYPOCRITICALLY pick and choose?

      May 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      In Santa we trust, you posted "HS. I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but all infants are born and don't have any concept about religion or god. Then the indoctrination comes."

      Answer: I'd rather be indoctrinated into Jesus' righteous truth than indoctrinated into satan's unrighteous lies. So the battle continues.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      @observer
      i believe that the Bible is the testimony of God, our Creator about Himself and about condition of mankind. It is not a pretty book, it is a bloody book full of pain and agony. Man would have never wrote it. man does not want to see himself in the way God says that he is. But Bible is also the revelation of God's nature, much like ours, in feelings of love, anger and sorrow. But what is ultimately about is about God revealing Himself, explaining Himself and declaring Himself in the Person of his Son Jesus Christ. If anyone wants to know what God is really like, look at Jesus Christ, His son. The Spirit of God who is the Spirit of truth testifies of Him. No man (human) can know God apart from believing and acknowledging the testimony of the Spirit of God. They can us the Name of Jesus Christ, but never knowing Him So, according to the article written by this guy who calls himself a Christian, he does not know true Christ. If he did, he would recognize the testimony of the Spirit of Truth who testifies of Him and EVWERYTHING HE STANDS FOR. There is no mistake about it!

      May 14, 2013 at 11:32 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      m-t-s (meant- to- say)
      "They can use the Name of Jesus Christ, but never knowing Him."

      May 14, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • Observer

      PRISM,

      Since you support every word the Bible has about gays, do you support every word the Bible has about forcing r@pe victims to marry their rapist? Do you support slavery? Do you support discrimination against women and the handicapped?

      Or do you just hypocritically pick and choose quotes putting down gays while ignoring the Golden Rule?

      May 15, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • Ken

      PRISM 1234
      Then there is no such thing as a wealthy Christian, because Jesus certainly didn't approve of not selling all that you have and giving it to charity. Somehow, when they're all busy picking up the stones for gays, I seriously doubt that all the mega-church pastors, well-off Christian authors and musicians, and others living well above the poverty line even allow themselves to comprehend what Jesus had to say on that matter.

      17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
      19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
      22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
      23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
      Mark 10:17-25

      May 15, 2013 at 12:23 am |
    • tallulah13

      faith, if your opinion had any value at all, I'm sure I'd be devastated.

      HS: Denying that science which does not agree with what you want it to say is pointless and only highlights your dreadful ignorance. Verifiable science trumps your brand of superstitious idiocy, every single time.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:24 am |
    • redzoa

      "Pre-Flood world" – No such thing as a global flood . . . pure mythology, pretty much like the rest of the stories. Still, feel free to point to the oil/mineral companies who use creationist "flood geology" rather than mainstream geology to find reserves. Feel free to explain the ordering of the fossil record, i.e. first fish, then amphibians, then reptiles, then mammals, then birds, understanding that the creationist "ecozonation," "hydrodynamic sorting," and "floating biome" hypotheses offered to date, are facially without any evidentiary support and are self-contradicting in light of the order. One would think with their infallible biblically-supported models, creationists would be in high demand to apply their "science" to all manner of issues; however, it appears their only application is apologetics . . .

      May 15, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Ken,
      The rich man put his trust in his possessions. His wealth was his god. That is why Jesus described how difficult it was for a rich man to enter the kingdom. He told another about the man who had such a great harvest and he said I will tear down my old barns and build new, then called him a fool because that very night his soul would be required.

      Lay up your treasure in heaven. Your heart will be where your treasure is. What you have here can be gone tomorrow, including you.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Robert, Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:45 am |
    • sam stone

      is that what you do with your h-se-ual inclinations, prissy?

      May 15, 2013 at 7:24 am |
    • Ken

      Robert Brown
      Nice sermon, but the point still remains that there are an awful lot of Christians living well above the poverty line, who like having their fancy cars and nice clothes, especially here in America. Lots even running churches who like to spend money on new buildings and the like. Wasn't Jesus speaking out to them?

      May 15, 2013 at 8:08 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Ken,

      Thanks, but I’m not qualified to preach. You have a valid point. While I have a below average income, compared to what Jesus was teaching I would be considered wealthy too. The poor in that day struggled to obtain food and shelter. We have a lot of things these days that we think of as necessities even though they are luxuries. There are plenty of folks who used religion in his day to enrich themselves and the same thing goes on now. They have received their reward.

      May 15, 2013 at 8:46 am |
    • Science

      Hey PMS 1234 ............you know thanks !

      Hey Bobie and As-stin Chad/rachel l4h fred Robert Brown loony bethany kev bx fred etc etc All creationists !!!

      Was the bible around back then ?

      Human Y Chromosome Much Older Than Previously Thought

      Mar. 4, 2013 — The discovery and analysis of an extremely rare African American Y chromosome pushes back the time of the most recent common ancestor for the Y chromosome lineage tree to 338,000 years ago. This time predates the age of the oldest known anatomically modern human fossils.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305145821.htm

      No god(s) needed or required to graduate from public schools in the US

      Remember : Adam had to POKE himself hard with his OWN BONE to create Eve.

      Peace

      March 11, 2013 at 7:06 am | Report abuse |

      May 15, 2013 at 7:24 am | Report abuse |

      https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/

      Messed-Up Bible Stories – 2 – Adam and Eve

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRGnPIlclps&w=640&h=360]

      Peace

      Bed Vroooooom !!! amd the old red devil and se-x.

      May 15, 2013 at 8:51 am |
    • Ken

      Robert Brown
      I think that you can pretty much count every major Christian public figure in that. What they don't get by way of financial gain they tend to get in celebrity, or getting off in the authority people award them. There's a youth minister out here who talks a good talk, but he must still pay a lot more in music, clothes, tattoos, and sports equipment than I ever did at his age, even adjusted for inflation. His dad has a big gun collection. If he sold it he could probably buy a new BMW. Selfish use of money, yes?

      May 15, 2013 at 10:10 am |
    • sam stone

      "Thanks, but I’m not qualified to preach."

      Yet you do

      Preachers should be ridiculed

      May 15, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • HeavenSent

      And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

      Mark 16:15

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
  5. Bostontola

    HeavenSent,
    "Bostontola, didn't you get the memo? You are the last generation."

    Heaven, don't you know that every generation of Christians for the last millennia and a half thought they were the last?

    May 14, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Hilarious. "The last generation." The idiot doesn't even know what generation any of us belong to. What a twit.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

      2 Peter 3:8

      Amen.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Which is meaningless in this context, you bozo.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The real Tom, if this earth age (the 2nd earth age that we live in today, the world was destroyed during the Katabole which you can read in 2nd Peter 3:6) being approximately 14,000 years old means that's it's only been 2 weeks for Jesus.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
    • Newsflash

      Two weeks?
      Darlin, the honeymoon is officially OVER.
      The groom is dead, the bride is a whore covered in blood and filth.
      Jesus ain't comin back, sweetie.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Newsflash, you posted "Two weeks? Darlin, the honeymoon is officially OVER. The groom is dead, the bride is a w hore covered in blood and fi lth. Je sus ain't comin back, sweetie."

      Answer: Your guy comes back first. Careful when fall ing over yourself when s atan pretends to be Jesus, that you worship.
      Jesus knows you and wrote about your fate in Revelation 21:8. P.S. I read to the end of His Story and you and your guy lose.

      May 15, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • sam stone

      HS: If you have a sidearm, in a fortnight, you could be on your knees pleasing jesus the savior, not jesus, the gardener...what are you waiting for? The joy of heaven awaits....

      May 15, 2013 at 7:26 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Ephesians 2:1-3

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
  6. HeavenSent

    Ad nauseum seems to be the unbelievers choice of weapons. That and the bully routine.

    May 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
    • The real Tom

      It's "ad nauseam," HS. And you ought to know.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Have you missed the posts by Chad, Vic, fred, etc.?
      You don't consider the threats in your posted quotes bullying?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
    • Bostontola

      HeavenScent,
      No weapons here, just argument. Christians do have a history of using weapons though.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • The real Tom

      I thought you were only going to "be here for a short time," HS. How can we miss you if you never leave?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I did what I had to do Tom, and just came back for a bit. That's not a bite from you.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Well, HS, you're the expert on adding nausea.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      tallulah13, why not post more for freedom of speech, while ignoring how our handles get stolen and you are there to witness it..

      May 15, 2013 at 1:50 am |
  7. Sherman Oaks

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otrqzITuSqE&w=640&h=360]

    May 14, 2013 at 9:21 pm |
    • mama k

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcHRRjsttOc&w=640&h=360]

      May 14, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • mama k

      This is the first time I've watched something from Professor Peter Millican. It is quite good.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
    • Science

      Messed-Up Bible Stories – 2 – Adam and Eve ...............The BONE !...........enjoy

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRGnPIlclps&w=640&h=360]

      Adam poked himself Chad !

      May 14, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
  8. faith

    i realize nazi god hating fascists cannot comprehend the following, but it is my duty to splain it to them again and again so they are without excuse.

    just cause somebody says, "i am a christian" don't necessarily make it so. dodo, repeat that 10 times in a row, 3 times a day

    (no wonder these idiots can't get out of their own way long enough to ask christ to save them)

    May 14, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • The real Tom

      And you are a fine example of your own law.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • Observer

      You are a constant example of someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't stick to the Bible. Well done.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:10 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Faith,
      Why do you think spewing insults makes your case? I'm atheist, not nazi, fascist nor a god hater. I don't hate Jesus any more than I would hate Thor ( or Sauron for that matter).

      May 14, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • Observer

      Bostontola,

      In possibly the most accurate statement faith has made, she said

      "just cause somebody says, "i am a christian" don't necessarily make it so" That explains why she does so many things that Jesus NEVER would have done. Hypocrisy is far too common for "Christians".

      May 14, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • faith

      dorothy, do you know what it is like to die from lung cancer?

      do u no what it's like to drown, slowly, as your lungs fill with blood over months?

      do u no what the last few weeks r like?

      constantly trying to catch your breath

      growing exhausted from the effort to take each breath because you can't use the oxygen you take in? blood fills and blocks the alveoli until you drown

      May 14, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • The real Tom

      My father-in-law died from lung cancer, ass wipe, so you can save your crap.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,

      Are you describing yourself right now?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bostontola, you posted "Faith, Why do you think spewing insults makes your case? I'm atheist, not nazi, fascist nor a god hater. I don't hate Jesus any more than I would hate Thor ( or Sauron for that matter).

      Question: Do all atheists say and believe the same nonsense when posting? Cookie cutting at it's finest.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
    • The real Tom

      HS, I cannot fathom what sort of profession you could possibly claim to have had. The words is "its", not "it's."

      Get a clue.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:09 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent

      "Bostontola, you posted "Faith, Why do you think spewing insults makes your case? I'm atheist, not nazi, fascist nor a god hater. I don't hate Jesus any more than I would hate Thor ( or Sauron for that matter)."

      I agree with Bostontola about this except that I'm an agnostic. Why is the TRUTH so hard for you to accept?.

      Question: Do all atheists say and believe the same nonsense when posting? Cookie cutting at it's finest.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The real Tom, thank you for playing secretary for me. Or, is that assistant?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The word you are looking for is "teacher", HS. Sadly, you are a poor student.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, you're confusing me with someone who wants to think backwards and make excuses for life.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:24 am |
    • fred

      HS, the confusion is all yours.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      fred is now the backup for babble.

      Ephesians 2:1-3

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
  9. faith

    the lying, frightened, cowardly nazi fascist god-haters cannot prove christ didn't live which i've known all along. they squeal like hysterical pigs when shown the blood of the savior of the world

    May 14, 2013 at 8:42 pm |
    • faith

      our little pigs prefer dirt and dung

      rather than to wash in his blood and be clean

      May 14, 2013 at 8:44 pm |
    • Observer

      Here's what the #1 Nazi of all time said:

      “May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”
      - Adolph Hitler, 02/01/1933

      May 14, 2013 at 8:49 pm |
    • faith

      i have a blank check with murdock's name on it.
      i filled it out for 27,000,000,000 bucks. all hers.
      she has to take it to cash it.
      she decided to flush it down the sow's toilet.
      she despised the color of the ink. it made her sick

      next!

      May 14, 2013 at 8:54 pm |
    • Mickey1313

      Faith you may not know how proof works. it is the job of those who with to show a fantastic theory, to show proof, not the ones who you are trying to convince. But when the only book one reads its the fairy tale of the bible,i expect there intelligence to be lacking

      May 14, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
    • faith

      "Observer
      The words of the top Nazi ever: “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.” – Adolph Hitler, 1936, Reichstag, Berlin"

      hitler said god existed. end of discussion

      May 14, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
    • faith

      "Faith you may not know how proof works"

      lol

      May 14, 2013 at 9:00 pm |
    • Observer

      faith,,

      "hitler said god existed. end of discussion"

      Proof that atheists aren't nazis, disproving your delusional babble. Well done.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • faith

      o murdie, for heaven's sake child. u have more faith in Christ than most consecrated believers.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, I find it ironic that Hitler was a Jew.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:03 pm |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent

      "Observer, I find it ironic that Hitler was a Jew."

      He was raised as a CATHOLIC.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, it's not healthy to believe lies.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:25 am |
    • Observer

      HeavenSent

      "Observer, it's not healthy to believe lies."

      Since you claim that the Bible has no errors, I'm sorry to hear your health must be so bad.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:29 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, my spiritual as well as physical health are perfect. Thank you.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • Science

      Recent search Chadie and faith..........HS TOO

      http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/5/5/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority#

      Front page there too billie and chadie

      Have not search for twitter ...........yet chadie

      May 15, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
  10. faith

    17 out of 54 nazi god hating fascists oppose gay marriage

    May 14, 2013 at 8:17 pm |

    • Was that a family reunion?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:19 pm |
    • faith

      your momma

      May 14, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
    • Observer

      The words of the top Nazi ever:

      “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.”
      - Adolph Hitler, 1936, Reichstag, Berlin

      May 14, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, don't you find it ironic that Hitler was a Jew and had all his family's paperwork destroyed? Mmmmhhhhhhhhhhhhh?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • G to the T

      HS "Hitlter was a jew" – Oh good. Now I know you're crazy and can proceed to disregard anything you post. Thanks!

      May 17, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
  11. faith

    the good news is god is love. the best news is, if u want to enjoy it, u must yield your well to him.

    sorry demons. u had ur chance.

    May 14, 2013 at 8:14 pm |
    • Bostontola

      My prayer to go:
      Since Faith has yielded his will to you, please give him spelling skill.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:18 pm |
    • faith

      he's looking for a 600 ft well with a gpm of 3 and 1/3

      May 14, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • The real Tom

      When are you going to start babbling about Korn again, doofus?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • Athy

      Oil well or water well?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:34 pm |
    • faith

      The real Tom
      When are you going to start babbling about Korn again, doofus?
      lil tom moron, i c u had a backbreaking day at work.
      dodo, cigarettes r killing u softly my sweet. your non-stop coffee consumption exacerbates your fatal addiction

      May 14, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
    • The real Tom

      So you're not going to yap about KORN yet again? Darn. I've been looking forward to hearing the saga again all day long.

      Now my evening is ruined.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
  12. faith

    Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

    he don't like u, dodo. brush your teeth

    May 14, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
    • Bostontola

      You see, this is the kind of intellectual repartee that keeps me coming back.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
    • Death to all religions NOW AND ALWAYS - AMEN

      I must admit that this level of discourse is amazingly complex and vastly entertaining. I may have to go pee.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:28 pm |
    • Death to all religions NOW AND ALWAYS - AMEN

      Okay, I went pee. LET THE DESTRUCTION COMMENCE!

      May 14, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
  13. faith

    "tallulah13
    You know why some ho mos e x u al s suffer? Because "good" christians make it their mission to make their lives hell.
    But generally, the openly gay people I've had the pleasure of being friends with are happy and content with who they are."

    teletubby
    the gay pals i've had hate b a d at hei s t s

    May 14, 2013 at 8:10 pm |

    • You've never had friends.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:13 pm |
    • faith

      You've never had friends.

      liar

      i am marrying me next Monday morning

      May 14, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I thought getting tossed inTO the eternal fires for eternity was torment?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
  14. Free thinking vs thinking freely

    When I think of freedom of thought I ponder the ability to be creative with philosophy and with my definition of "God" or "gods". I am free to change my mind, I am free to sort out of I am clear of my definition(s) or how real I want them to be or how accurate.

    If I am asked by an atheist what do you believe and why, now I am no longer free to think. Now I must be accountable in his eyes to him. I must defend my position.

    If I wish to do so, depending on what I've pondered then it can be a fun conversation about philosophy.

    The darker side is that he has said to me he does not trust me with my own thoughts, my own thoughts must now be subject to his evaluation and approval where before they were mine alone. I have lost my freedom to decide for myself. I have lost my freedom of privacy and enslaved myself to the idea that I must answer his questions.

    That is not freedom of thought...but it is freethinking.

    May 14, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • lol??

      2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
    • Death to all religions NOW AND ALWAYS - AMEN

      Here's something for you.
      You, having a religious belief, will constantly be called upon to justify your particular doctrine / worldview as part of your religion, which is shared to a greater or lesser degree by everyone who claims to follow your religion.
      Atheists, on the other hand, have no such problems. We are each individuals with no common belief.
      We have nothing but our own personal position to defend. You do not.
      You will stumble over this many times as you seek to defend your patently irrational and schizophrenic delusions.
      We, on the other hand, have no delusions regarding reality for the most part, and have no need to scramble to defend something that clearly does not exist.
      Did you never wonder why it was so hard to come up with answers as to your imaginary father-figure cult?
      That's why.
      We don't have made-up nonsense to stumble over. We have a better grasp on reality. Our opinions are OUR OWN.
      Yours, on the other hand, are the opinions of brainwashed people like yourself, so you have no mental basis for those opinions.
      You are brainwashed. You must escape the cult of fraudulent brainwashing if you want to think freely.
      But, yes, you are free to think as long as you are not then a danger to others. There are limits, you know.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • lol??

      Don't be celebratin' too hard, now. You might get a hangover.

      Pro 20:25 [It is] a snare to the man [who] devoureth [that which is] holy, and after vows to make enquiry.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:57 pm |
    • Free thinking vs thinking freely

      If I have been brainwashed then atleast I have done it to myself. I am free to be a theist or atheist depending on the day or the hour. I am limited to no one religion, no one philisophical posiiton.

      The harder one tries to defend these positions the less significant they become either way.

      Infact the very atheism you hold dear denies the existence of the johari window (unknown unknown) and you are now limited to never imagining something else.

      Everything you see around you got its start in imagination so who are you to downplay it?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • Free thinking vs thinking freely

      In short let me say it is not a matter of defending my personal position. It is an outright rejection of the idea that my position needs any defense at all, except for my own liking.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
    • lol??

      FTVTF sign on shows a respect for the dialectic that will make a slave out of ya.
      Imaginations?

      "Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

      May 14, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
    • Free thinking vs thinking freely

      Lol,God's opinion would be important only if there is one, if there is not one then no opinion matters save my own.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • Death to all religions NOW AND ALWAYS - AMEN

      So why come here if being asked questions bothers you so much? Are you a masochist like Chad?

      May 14, 2013 at 10:03 pm |
    • Ken

      Chad
      Would a human parent simply give up on some of his children as God supposedly does by not rescuing them from Hell?

      May 15, 2013 at 12:34 am |
    • Free thinking vs thinking freely

      I come here to illustrate a point to people that their thoughts are their own property. I come because I care.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:32 am |
    • Free thinking vs thinking freely

      Ken..if you choose to have a diety you will come up with your own answer, if you choose not to then the question is not relevant.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:40 am |
    • HUH!

      For one who does much pondering and dissecting the words "free(ly)" and "thinking", you have missed the fact that even though your thoughts, and someone else's thoughts are of importance, depending on the situation – as you say... both, his and yours don't mean anything if they don't line up with truth e. i. reality. The thoughts of some of the hippies way back then when they were tripping on L-S-D, were important and very real to them.
      So they stared at the sun with na.ked eyes, (the drug enabling them to do it) and became blind. Some went to the edge of a cliff thinking they can fly. They fell to their death. The point is, they all agreed with each other. Their agreement didn't enable them to look at the sun without getting blind, neither could they fly. That is the example of human thinking, or better said -man's opinion vs. REALITY, friend.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
  15. Ben

    God’s unfailing love for us is an objective fact affirmed over and over in the Scriptures. It is true whether we believe it or not. Our doubts do not destroy God’s love, nor does our faith create it. It originates in the very nature of God, who is love, and it flows to us through our union with His beloved Son. ~ Jerry Bridges

    May 14, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • Bostontola

      If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?

      May 14, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • Athy

      Why doesn't god make himself a little more visible to convince the doubters? Is he really that shy? The most logical answer: He doesn't exist!

      May 14, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • Chad

      @Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

      Socrates recognized the dilemma of a just God and sinful man. Comment to Plato ~500 B.C: "It may be that the Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how."

      When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do?
      nothing?

      atheists always refuse to answer that question.. I dont really expect you to.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:47 pm |
    • molly

      Who is Jerry Bridges?

      May 14, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Chad,
      When one of my kids does wrong, they are punished proportionate to the transgression. Your god's deal is so disproportionate, I claim it is immoral. If I don't accept your god in this tiny span of my life, I am sentenced to an eternity of horror. It is not compatible with a loving god, you explain that.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • Ben

      Chad actually can't explain anything using his religion. I think he knows that now, somewhere back in his twisting and turning brain. He might actually let go of his delusion soon, but that will be a struggle for him.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • redzoa

      "When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do?
      nothing?"

      I drown them myself or demand the other child to hack them and all their toys and pets to death with a short sword. I'm very godly in my merciful love . . .

      May 14, 2013 at 9:13 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Chad, when my siblings and I fought, we were punished by our parents. That's what good parents do. However, the punishment was temporary, because my parents understood that punishing for eternity is really just plain dickish.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
    • Hear This

      Chad,
      "When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do?
      nothing?
      atheists always refuse to answer that question.."

      What is the matter with you? I have seen atheists answer that question countless times on here (and elsewhere).

      May 14, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
    • Chad

      @Bostontola "When one of my kids does wrong, they are punished proportionate to the transgression. Your god's deal is so disproportionate,"

      @Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

      @Chad "ok, so your root post indicated "unconditional", which you now agree you dont do yourself..

      so, the issue is the degree?

      we dont know the exact nature of the-place-you-are-when-you-are-permanently-separated-from-God. My view is that coming to know what could have been, the pure love that God is, then being estranged from that for all eternity, IS the nature of that. That's all that it takes, and it's going to be horrific if you choose that route.

      in any case, it's good that you recognize the necessity and that God,by His very nature, must do something about our choices.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:01 am |
    • lol??

      tallulah13 sayz,
      Chad, when my siblings and I fought, we were punished by our parents. That's what good parents do. However, the punishment was temporary, because my parents understood that punishing for eternity is really just plain dickish."...........

      Have you seen what the educratists are doing these dayz??
      "Susan Lee Burke, the first-grade teacher charged with assaulting nine students at Greencastle Elementary School in Silver Spring, previously worked at Meadow Hall Elementary School, the principal of the Rockville school said in a letter to parents on Wednesday..........." http://rockville.patch.com/articles/teacher-charged-with-choking-students-taught-kindergarten-at-meadow-hall

      May 15, 2013 at 9:18 am |
    • lol??

      "A 6 year old kindergartener was handcuffed, arrested, fingerprinted, charged with a felon and sent to jail. Her crime? She had a temper tantrum at school. According to the news report, Desre Watson disrupted the class with a temper tantrum. When she would not calm down, stop crying or leave the room the police were called. Seems she threw chairs and hit a second teacher who came to help the first teacher handle the situation. Columnist, Bob Herbert, spoke to the Avon Park, Florida police chief, Frank Mercurio. Evidently arresting 6 year olds is common practice there.........."
      http://voices.yahoo.com/kindergarten-girl-charged-felony-299023.html

      Bye bye scholarship, welcome to braggin' rights.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:22 am |
    • ME II

      "in any case, it's good that you recognize the necessity and that God,by His very nature, must do something about our choices."

      What a childish and arrogant thing to say, typical.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:26 am |
    • JMEF

      Bostonia
      So Chad manages to get off the first twisting of another persons words to suit his ends. Well the lying and deceit will continue through out all his posts and Chad dragging out the ad hominem fallacy won't work because my statements are fact. Besides you being the good jesus freak that you are, are compelled to forgive me, the power of Christ compels you to turn the other cheek and forgive me my trespass. Damn, I feel better already, thanks.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:28 am |
    • midwest rail

      " "When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do?
      nothing?
      atheists always refuse to answer that question.."
      Clearly false. Chad, on the other hand, regularly ignores questions when the answer doesn't fit his narrative. Yep, still disingenuous.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:35 am |
    • fred

      Where do atheist get the idea God is not capable of administering perfect justice? There is fair treatment for all:
      Luke 12:47-48
      47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:40 am |
    • Saraswati

      "When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do?
      nothing?
      atheists always refuse to answer that question.."

      Right...anyone going to explain this to Chad for the 200th time?

      I'm not sure if we already have child psychology on the extensive list of fields of which Chad is completely ignorant. Over and over he demonstrates his bizarre belief that god given rules are the only reason for restaint or punishment despite decades of good data, much written by atheists, to the contrary. I'd like to think a few years of basic undergrad anthropology and psych classes could cure this sort of stupidity, but he's shown himself incapable of learning even the simplest things. Even if he's lying a lot of the time in how he presents the details he appears to believe a lot of his nonsense ideas about atheism, determinism, free will and such.

      I hate to bring this up because I don't like to mess up someone's research, but I have wondered sometimes if "Chad" is a fake identi'ty being used for some sort of online study. I understand that some people have unusual difficulty learning new ideas, but "Chad", with his constant repeti'tion of the same inaccurate information (often just copied and pasted) seems to exceed any real world cases. I have to say I'm not completely convinced an actual person could be this slow. Just wondering if anyone else has had the same question? There have been quite a few studies done using internet forums but in this case I don't know what you'd be looking for with a "Chad" or even whether such a study could get past a human subjects committee.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:08 am |
    • JMEF

      Saraswati
      Quite possible that BD could also be part of that type of study, when he comes on the blog with the obvious intention of pushing the RCC/Vatican agenda but does not make that fact clear until called out by another poster. Bill seems to be using many of the same techniques as Chad lately. Probably not a study but would be a good explanation of why they would bother.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:20 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Where do I have to study to learn that obvious intentions aren't clear until they're stated?

      May 15, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • JMEF

      BD You will admit that your conclusions were already preordained before you even had heard what others said. Why would you not answer David TX, for example?

      May 15, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Chad

      @ME II "What a childish and arrogant thing to say, typical."

      @Chad "actually, I think the post which fits that more is "@Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

      =====
      @Chad ""When one of your children strikes the other, what do you do? nothing? atheists always refuse to answer that question.."

      @Saraswati "I'm not sure if we already have child psychology on the extensive list of fields of which Chad is completely ignorant. Over and over he demonstrates his bizarre belief that god given rules are the only reason for restaint or punishment despite decades of good data, much written by atheists, to the contrary."

      @Chad "so you completely missed the point of the question,
      which was NOT "what are the benefits to the recipient in receiving punishment, or that God is the only definer of rules"
      but WAS: "why do you punish your children when they do wrong, but expect God to do nothing".

      hope that helps
      =======
      @JMEF

      no idea what you are talking about.. what ad-hominem?

      May 15, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      I expect visible and detectable parents to act as they feel is correct. I expect invisible and undetectable beings to act in accordance with their invisiblity and undetectability. Since nobody can prove that god is behaving at all in any way, then it's irrelevant to discuss differences between how a human acts and how god acts. Besides, it's always the christians that are saying god's ways are higher than our ways and we have no right to evaluate his judgments from his perfect perspective. If god is an azzhole and he is going to do his will regardless, then what I think is irrelevant.

      May 15, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Sure thing, fred.

      May 15, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • ME II

      @ME II "What a childish and arrogant thing to say, typical."

      @Chad "actually, I think the post which fits that more is "@Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

      So? Are you invoking the '.. but he did it first' argument?

      May 15, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Josh

      @chad, great analogy on the question of choices and consequences.
      Also, as the root post states, God's unfailing love originates in the very nature of God, who is love, and it flows to us through our union with His beloved Son

      May 15, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "So? Are you invoking the '.. but he did it first' argument?"

      =>sorta, but you also have to admit that he did back off from his earlier @Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"
      stuff, and I dont know how many times that has been addressed (and acknowledged by the atheist), but it'll come up again tomorrow in the same manner..

      May 15, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "=>sorta, but..."

      So, the ends justify the means now? As long as you look right in your own mind, it's all good. is that it?

      May 15, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • Chad

      actually, on further review, I dont think it is inappropriate at all..

      @Bostontola "When one of my kids does wrong, they are punished proportionate to the transgression. Your god's deal is so disproportionate,"

      @Bostontola "If god has unfailing love for us all, why doesn't he let all of us into heaven unconditionally?"

      @Chad "ok, so your root post indicated "unconditional", which you now agree you dont do yourself..

      so, the issue is the degree?

      we dont know the exact nature of the-place-you-are-when-you-are-permanently-separated-from-God. My view is that coming to know what could have been, the pure love that God is, then being estranged from that for all eternity, IS the nature of that. That's all that it takes, and it's going to be horrific if you choose that route.

      in any case, it's good that you recognize the necessity and that God,by His very nature, must do something about our choices.

      May 15, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "actually, on further review, I dont think it is inappropriate at all.."

      So, the ends justify the means now? As long as you look right in your own mind, it's all good. is that it?
      Meh...

      May 15, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • Chad

      I dont see any inappropriate means that need to be justified, do you?

      May 15, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • Rachel

      You tell 'em, Chad. That's me boy :-).

      May 15, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • Ben

      Rachad? Chadel?

      May 15, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      So you bring up an analogy, if a child hits his/her sibling, should the parent do nothing.

      Lets think about what this means for a moment. If a one of my offspring hit another, I would sit them down and explain to them why hitting is bad. If that kid persisted in hitting, the punishment would increase. This is all in order to instill social rules we all have to live by in order to live peacefully with one another.

      Application of this with god however makes 0 sense. God has 1 singular punishment: hell. It's eternal and set at a later point, allowing the current behavior to persist until it's way too late. Furthermore, the threat of the punishment clearly doesn't stop bad actions from happening AND even if a person does realize that punishment is just around the corner and behaves, what's the end result? Still death which means that all of the behavior we learn to live by is thrown out the window and has no bearing on the afterlife.

      Think about this for a moment. Any lesson a parent teaches their children is so that the child will one day grow up, become a functioning , successful member of society and in turn have children and teach them lessons. This is however not the goal of god, his teachings in no way prepare us for the afterlife. Moreover, parents operate under the logical idea that punishments have to fit the crime. If you hit your brother, apologize and go to your room. If you make a mess, clean up the mess, etc... However for god, telling a lie is tantamount to murder, believing in Vishnu is tantamount to murder and yelling at mom might as well be considered murder and it all leads to eternal punishment that teaches the person being punished nothing but solely exists to constantly torture someone for no good reason.

      Please stop using analogies as to why god/men are the same as the parent/child relationship. They are nothing alike.

      May 15, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • Chad

      God doesnt put anyone in hell, they choose to be placed there.

      May 15, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, According to christians, your god created hell and chose to structure life so that only christians would avoid it. I don't see how anyone but your god would be to blame if such a place existed.

      May 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred "Where do atheist get the idea God is not capable of administering perfect justice?"

      Maybe the thousands of children that die daily from starvation.
      Maybe the thousands of children that die daily from preventable disease.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Chad

      @Santa

      What do you want God to do with people that refuse to be reconciled to Him, and choose to spend eternity apart?

      May 15, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      Chad, if hell exists, I don't want to go there. Yet apparently the only way to avoid it is if I believe in god.

      Action: Disbelief in god
      Punishement: Hell if I lack belief.

      Please tell me how this correlates to

      Action:Hitting a sibling
      Punishment: Going to my room for an hour

      A simple thought crime means I have to eternally suffer without learning a lesson vs. A physical action met with a finite punishiment intended to teach the lesson (don't hit).

      Can you honestly not understand how crazy it is for a god to dole out an eternal, horrific punishment like hell for simply thinking one way?

      May 15, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
    • Chad

      Act: rebelling from God
      Consequence: eternal separation

      God places no man in hell, they choose to go there.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, I believe that neither exist so it is hypothetical. You were saying that hell is not your god's fault and I don't see how you can say that as according to christian beliefs, it created the place and set guidelines on who would go there. You claim that your god is omnipotent and omniscient and as such didn't need to create hell or allow the talking snake to cause original sin. So I don't see how anyone else would be culpable for hell or its population.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      1. Eternal separation and Eternal damnation are two very different things.
      2. Why must it be eternal?
      3. My disbelief is an act of rebellion now?
      4. Disbelief has an incredibly easy cure, especially for an all-powerful being that wants to be worshipped and yet... here we are.
      5. What lesson can I learn from being eternally separated (or damned) by god? How can anyone else who's still alive learn from my story if there is no way you can know what happens after death until after you die yourself?
      6. Why must the punishment wait until years after the initial action? In your analogy punishment is swift and yet god has to wait until I croak before punishing me?

      May 15, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chuckles "Eternal separation and Eternal damnation are two very different things."
      @chad "really? How so?"

      @Chuckles "Why must it be eternal?"
      @Chad "it's your choice to make"

      @Chuckles "My disbelief is an act of rebellion now?"
      @Chad "yes"

      @Chuckles " Disbelief has an incredibly easy cure, especially for an all-powerful being that wants to be worshipped and yet... here we are."
      @Chad "the bible tells you exactly how you can cure your disbelief and experience the living God, yet you persist in refusing..."

      @Chuckles " What lesson can I learn from being eternally separated (or damned) by god? How can anyone else who's still alive learn from my story if there is no way you can know what happens after death until after you die yourself?"
      @Chad "A. when you have gotten yourself to the point of eternal separation, the lesson is over.
      B. “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
      22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
      25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
      27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
      29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
      30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
      31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
      - Luke 16

      @Chuckles "Why must the punishment wait until years after the initial action? In your analogy punishment is swift and yet god has to wait until I croak before punishing me?"
      @Chad "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance - 2 Peter

      May 15, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      1. Eternal separation is a jewish concept and amounts to limbo. It's boring and you are aware that there is a heaven but you aren't allowed in. Eternal damnation is active torture by the devil and is, supposedly, very painful. The christian concept is to rely on eternal damnation as a fear tactic.

      2. No, it's clearly gods choice. At any time he could make it finite. It's up to god and god alone.

      3. "the bible tells you exactly how you can cure your disbelief and experience the living God, yet you persist in refusing..."
      - The bible is clearly the worst method to cure disbelief, if it was so great, there would be no other religion than christianity. The onus is once again shifted to god for providing nonbelievers with something, anything, to cure disbelief in him. This is obviously incredibly easy to do, especially with an omnipotent god.

      4. "@Chad "A. when you have gotten yourself to the point of eternal separation, the lesson is over."
      - So the punishment is only doled out AFTER the lesson is over? How does that work or even make sense? Honestly, think about that for a moment then come back and give me a real answer.

      5. "@Chad "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance- 2 Peter"
      - And yet it's been years and I have not heard a peep from god so.... he's pretty slow. That's self-evident, you can attempt to screw with time and pretend that god is on god time and is never late or early, but always on time, but that's already Gandalf's line, so gods gonna need to find a new one without violating copyright.
      God is also clearly horrible at doling out quick punishment if punishment only comes decades after the action and only after death. That's slow by everyone's standards. So again, try and think and once you've done that, provide a real answer please.

      May 15, 2013 at 6:33 pm |
    • Science

      Recent search Chadie and faith

      http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/5/5/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority#

      Front page there too billie and chadie

      Have not search for twitter ...........yet chadie

      May 15, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • lol??

      Why y'all worried about hell??

      "Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

      See, no problem.

      May 15, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
  16. Ben

    “Most people, if they had really learned to look into their own hearts, would know that they do want, and want acutely, something that cannot be had in this world. There are all sorts of things in this world that offer to give it to you, but they never quite keep their promise.
    “At present we are on the outside… the wrong side of the door. We discern the freshness and purity of morning, but they do not make us fresh and pure. We cannot mingle with the pleasures we see. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so. Someday, God willing, we shall get “in”… We will put on glory… that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch.
    We do not want to merely “see” beauty–though, God knows, even that is bounty enough. We want something else which can hardly be put into words–to be united with the beauty we see, to pass into it, to receive it into ourselves, to bathe in it, to become part of it.
    –C.S Lewis

    May 14, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Ben,
      Some are able to pass into the beauty of nature in this life through understanding. I can tell you that by investing time in understanding mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. you are entered into a beauty experienced by few. Try it, it's worth it.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • Quip

      Bost.... How much time do you spend on all those academic pursuits you have listed? Or, have you mastered all those other faculties and have some disposable time to spend here?

      May 14, 2013 at 7:47 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip,
      Since the body of knowledge in these fields are growing at an accelerated pace, I can't claim mastery. I have taken undergraduate courses in all and graduate level courses in mathematics and physics. That is more than enough to appreciate the beauty in nature. With much less you would be able to appreciate it also.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
    • Quip

      Must admit , that appreciation is overwhelmingly contagious in that passion and exuberance expressed for all things you have listed. Now, may I ask what brings you here?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip,
      I stumbled on this blog a while back. The comments are quite polarized and there are many thoughtful contributors as well. The repartee is enjoyable.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:14 pm |
    • lol??

      2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • Quip

      I find it odd that a person whose academic interests lie outside of belief would come to a belief blog and brag about those other interests. I wouldn't go to the science blog bragging about how important it's to know about belief?!?

      May 14, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip,
      This is the belief blog, not the religion blog. I have many beliefs, just not a belief in any god(s).

      May 14, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
    • Quip

      No, I am not going to the sports blog to talk about science, if that earlier post was not clear enough.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
    • Ben

      Claiming that religion is outside the domain of science, and suggesting that scientists shouldn't be allowed to comment on it, seems a very dodgy way to defend religion. Desperate times for religion, I suppose.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:41 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip,
      In case I wasn't clear, while I have scientific interests, I also have non-scientific interests. Some may feel they can only explore a narrow slice of humanity. I'm not one of them.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:44 pm |
    • Quip

      None of your responses are relevant to the OP. Learn to be coherent.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:46 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip,
      Your closed minded view may not allow you to perceive coherence.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Quip, please read the last sentence of the OP and you'll see my first response is directly related.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:25 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bostontola, you should thank Jesus for that nature He created for all to enjoy.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Heaven,
      If I thanked Jesus, wouldn't Zeus get jealous?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
    • The real Tom

      If he created you, HS, I have nothing to be thankful for, except the fact that you don't live anywhere near me.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      What's missing in this discussion is the recognition that, as beautiful as creation and scientific discovery may be, temporal things are just that, temporal. What Ben is describing as the longing of man's heart is for the infinite, the eternal, therein lies true beauty. All else is just so much dust. The worship of the created in place of the creator is paganism.

      May 15, 2013 at 9:48 am |
    • Science

      Hey Bill................playing with your devil and the BedVroooooooooooooom.

      How OLD is that with the RCC Bill?

      May 15, 2013 at 10:00 am |
    • JMEF

      BD Would it not be a more fulsome statement on your part to include according to the catholic catechism and RCC dogma and dictates? That was rather an artful escape when backed into a corner yesterday, you have learned well from Chad, quiet applause.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:07 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Not sure what I "escaped" we had a three day long discussion, during which I learned that:

      No one is proposing that gaay marriage is equivalent to holy matrimony and, in fact, that argument cannot be made.
      Support for gaay marriage is based on politics, not theology or philosophy
      Ending discrimination is a subjective endeavor.

      As to the beauty of nature, I think you are right, the catechism is succinct:

      319 God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. That his creatures should share in his truth, goodness and beauty – this is the glory for which God created them.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • Ben

      Nothing is holy. Holy is an absurd concept invented by religious charlatans who wanted to protect their fraud from discovery.

      May 15, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
  17. Saraswati

    And Minnesota has joined us in the 21st century...

    May 14, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Shocking considering they still vote for people like Michelle Bachman, but I guess it just means that you can't stop progress!

      May 14, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
    • .

      They had to legalize it for her – she's already married to a gay person.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • Sciernce

      It is also the state where they have evolution in a test tube.................U of M.

      Peace

      May 14, 2013 at 7:06 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @.

      ZING!

      May 14, 2013 at 7:06 pm |
    • Science

      And the Mayo Clinic.......Rochester MN...........Heads of State go there.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Sara.................a friendly reminder about chadie..........

      https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/29/my-take-if-you-hear-god-speak-audibly-you-usually-arent-crazy/comment-page-87/#comments

      To funny !

      Peace

      May 14, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • Science

      Way to funny look who shows up above...........the devil has him by the .................funny stuff.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:55 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Sara

      The comments keep coming from chadie above ..........what can you say ?

      Have fun Chad

      May 15, 2013 at 9:16 am |
  18. Of sins and sensualities

    Love the sinner loathe sins

    May 14, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • Of sins and sensualities

      Love the sinner and love not the sins.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Love the believer; hate the belief.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " Love the sinner, hate the sin." Also known as "The Big Lie" as practiced by contemporary Christians.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "Sin" is a disgusting concept that promotes guilt, fear and ignorance - which also happen to be the pillars of religion.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • Bostontola

      If all Christians followed love the sinner, there would be little to no animosity towards Christians.

      Love the religious, ignore religions, fight imposition of religious belief, defend secular society.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • lol??

      Bootyfunk sayz,
      ""Sin" is a disgusting concept................."

      So what's with all the laws you keep havin' yer servants pass?? Spreading guilt around??

      May 14, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
    • Jesus is DEAD FOREVER because of DEATH

      Death is nothing. A cessation of existence. There is no sin, no god, and no Jesus. He will never be coming back.
      boohoo poor christards

      May 14, 2013 at 10:08 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Hate the fact that a cult condemns natural human relationships on the basis of a book of myths. Love that our secular society is seeing through the ancient lie and are making this nation fair and just, one step at a time.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

      Proverbs 14:12

      Amen.

      May 15, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
  19. derp

    Telling atheists that we are going to spend eternity in hell is like telling christians they will spend eternity in Atlantis.

    Neither of us believe in them.

    May 14, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
    • Thinking about it

      Fake hell threat....real law suit threat.
      I think I'd prefer their hell to yours.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      derp, atheists don't spend eternity in hell. Only one group of people spend eternity in hell. The rest get blotted out.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
  20. Bostontola

    Looking at the majority positions of Americans under 25 years old for gay marriage, marijuana legality, etc., the Christian churches will be much less full. Imagine in just 2-3 generations.

    May 14, 2013 at 6:02 pm |
    • Hodor

      hopefully the churches will all have been changed into soup kitchens and homeless shelters by then, actually serving a meaningful purpose

      May 14, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • Colin

      We can only hope they are empty. The Jewish Zombie superst.ition is dying, just not fast enough for my liking.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:33 pm |
    • lol??

      Pwogwessive dreamin'.

      "Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof."

      May 14, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Probably just one generation, if you look at what's happened in Europe. Churches will have to change radically to stay relevant.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:50 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      churches = bastions of ignorance

      hopefully in the future, they will become places for communities to meet without the supersti.tion + magic.

      May 14, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
    • lol??

      Free abortions??

      May 14, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • sam

      @Sara – but if they do that, they're basically admitting they had it wrong in the first place, really. That's a tough sell.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • lol??

      Nah, you'll have the Christians in work camps before you gas em . DHS will need a roof over their heads. Do you actually think anybody will care about rights under martial law?? That goes for you, too, ladies.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Athy

      I think two or three generations ought to do it for most of the country. The churches just have too much legacy invested to change quickly enough to head it off. Of course the slower folks in the bible belt will take a few more generations probably, but they'll eventually get there too.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • lol??

      If you think the rich are gonna share the booty, I got a bridge for sale.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • midwest rail

      You've been selling bridges since the day you started posting here.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:42 pm |
    • Bostontola

      lol??,
      I am familiar with your bridge for sale, it's the the reward of heaven in the next life at the price of my slavery in this life.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
    • lol??

      Yeah Bos, your servants have been buyin' plenty of shares for ya. On credit.

      May 14, 2013 at 7:53 pm |
    • Bostontola

      lol??,
      I have no servants, and am no ones servant.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
    • Heathen Mike

      Athy, Da*mn! I'm in the bible belt! Oh well. I guess that explains my participation in this never-ending Blog that keeps restating the same points. So here I go again....
      Bostontol, you rock! Bill D, you're an idiot. lol??, I know, based on your snide comment about me, that you felt neglected when I earlier took issue with "faith" and HS and ignored you, . So to answer you, Yes, I do feel better, thank you. And by the way, one of the convenient things about debating as a "non-believer" is that we don't really have to claim to be loving and respectful to be true to ourselves. I think I usually (not always) do anyway, but WE're not the ones claiming to loving witnesses for Christ. Christian Bible thumpers, on the other hand, are supposed to model your behavior after Jesus, who taught that love is the paramount principle and that evil should be met with kindness, "turn the other cheek," etc. But lol?? is so full of snarky pis*s and vinegar as to beg the question "What the heck happened to Christ-like love?" Oh, and incidentally, one of the dumbest things on this blog thread is the drumbeat of scripture quotes thrown up here to try to debate people who, by our own admission, don't consider the bible any sort of divine or infallible text. Duh! There you go, lol??, I mean you. You might as well argue that the fact no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq "proves" Hussein was hiding them. Its about as accurate. Oh wait, lol??, I bet you think that last part was probably true!

      May 14, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
    • lol??

      So whatdya doing here Mikey?? Trying to usher in a new world order?? Poor ol' USA, had such a fine triune beginning with checks and balances and all but the pwogwessives sank her with leavening, fixin' things. That's a favorite mob sayin', "The fix is in!"

      May 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm |
    • Athy

      Sorry, Mike. There are exceptions, even in the Bible Belt.

      May 14, 2013 at 8:31 pm |
    • Heathen Mike

      Athy, I agree with your assessment. Of course, I exclude myself from it, so I don't take it personally. : )

      Let's all just sit back and wonder as "lol??" spreads some more of that trademark "love of Jesus!" Apparently, it includes talking like Elmer Fudd. But wait! Where's the scripture quote? I feel cheated!!

      May 14, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Be vewwy quiet. lolly's huntin' wabbits.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bostontola, didn't you get the memo? You are the last generation. Read your outcome in Revelation 21:8 if you don't repent for your sins, ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more.

      May 14, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      HS, You're posting about bullying from atheists. I haven't seen any but I do see you quite frequently posting threats about a fiery lake of burning sulfur. You don't consider that bullying?

      May 14, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Santa, your perception is off and of course, backwards. Warning folks about reality of what will be is not a threat. It's reality.

      May 14, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • fred

      HS, it's not even a concealed threat so I don't know what the fuss is. God is the bully not us.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:21 am |
    • Ed

      Cheery start to the day to see HeavenSent accusing someone else of having something backwards. Irony in such extreme can be very funny.

      May 15, 2013 at 10:23 am |
    • HeavenSent

      More babble from unbelievers.

      May 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.