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May 11th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

My Take: ‘Gay Christian’ is not an oxymoron

Editor’s note: Justin Lee is the Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network and author of Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate.

By Justin Lee, Special to CNN

(CNN)–In high school, I was a Christian know-it-all.

My nickname was "God boy," and I was known for regularly preaching at my friends about social issues of the day. I dismissed their objections - and accusations of homophobia - as intolerance for my faith.

"I'm just telling you what God's Word says," I'd argue.

Years later I realized my mistake. What my peers most objected to wasn't my beliefs - it was my condescending attitude. I debated and preached when I should have listened. I thought that stating my position loudly and unyieldingly was a sign of strength. In the process, I alienated my friends.

I'm still an evangelical Christian, but one thing is now crystal clear to me. American evangelicals' bad reputation isn't just because of what we believe. It's mostly because of how we behave.

When ESPN commentator Chris Broussard was criticized for saying that openly gay NBA player Jason Collins was “openly rebelling against God,” some evangelicals argued that conservative theological views are no longer tolerated in America.

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But they're missing the point.

Broussard's language didn't just express a religious view about sexual morality; it referred to gay people in ways that were dehumanizing, reducing all gay people's lives to a single sex act. Other outspoken Christians routinely say even worse things, comparing gay people to pedophiles, for example.

No one is immune from criticism in a free country with diverse beliefs. But if Christians feel particularly singled out at times, I'd argue that our perceived lack of empathy for others is largely to blame.

I can often test a Christian's level of empathy by offering a single admission: When I was 18, I realized that I'm gay.

Empathetic Christians are typically intrigued by such a statement, even if they also question how a conservative Southern Baptist could also be openly gay. They want to know about my struggles, how my family and church responded, and whether I ever feel my faith and sexuality are at odds with one another.

I love these questions, because they show that the other person genuinely sees me as a human being.

But far too often, Christians respond not with curiosity and questions but with politics and preaching.

They quote Bible passages at me, make assumptions about my faith, or tell me why they’re opposed to same-sex marriage.

I'm no longer a person to them; I'm a symbol of a culture war. A battlefield. And when I don't want to be treated that way, they assume I'm turning away because I didn't really want to hear the truth.

This kind of behavior is why so many of my LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) friends want nothing to do with the church.

But it's not only them.

In my book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," I share the story of Cindy, a conservative evangelical mom whose life was thrown into turmoil when her son told her he was gay.

This wasn't a political question for Cindy; it was a personal one. But the dehumanizing rhetoric about gay people she heard from the pulpit made her afraid to talk to anyone at church about her son's sexuality.

Christians are not a monolithic group. I know many empathetic Christians, including many who speak up regularly for their LGBT brothers and sisters.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The loudest megaphones do not speak for the rest of us, but they are still loud, and legion. To them I say: Gay people are not an issue. We're people. Some of us are Christians, too. And if it disturbs you that I refer to myself as both gay and Christian, I invite you to take the time to get to know me, and read what I write. You don't have to agree, and you might think I’m a sinner, but at least you’ll see me as a human being.

Baptist minister and author Tony Campolo quips that Jesus entreated Christians not to "love the sinner and hate the sin," but to "love the sinner and hate your own sin."

Jesus saved his harshest words for the self-righteously devout and chose the outcasts and sinners as his closest friends.

Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Justin Lee.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Homosexuality • Opinion

soundoff (3,629 Responses)
  1. Chad

    @ME II "For many people, faith is earned. Should I expect less from your God?"

    =>are you talking about faith that He exists, or faith that He'll do something that you request?

    May 13, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • tallulah13

      Faith of existence is the first step, Chad.

      And not everyone is looking for supernatural favors. That's just the believers.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • .

      Gospel of Chad:
      (Updated list derived from history of Chad conversations.)

      Atheism:
      1. All atheists agree with everything Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins say, even if it is unrelated to atheism. Hawking and Dawkins disagree on free will, however, but you should ignore this conflict or any atheist who says they disagree.
      2. All atheists agree with one another on everything even if it has nothing to do with atheism. See #1 for models from which you can derive all their beliefs.
      3. The definition of atheist includes anything that any atheist I disagree with believes or anything I feel like tossing in there. Ignore any definitions in pesky places like dictionaries and philosophical encyclopedias.
      4. If one atheist somewhere on the internet said something, then, since all atheists agree with him/her, I can use that randomly selected example as an argument to address all other atheists.
      5. The definition of atheism includes not just materialism but strict deterministic materialism. Non-believers who might be Buddhists, believe in probabilistic physics, see consciousness as prior to the physical world, believe in, say, witchcraft aren’t really atheists.
      6. No atheist has ever read the bible. I mean, obviously, they’d be Christians if they had, right? OK, so a few have proven to me – OK, multiple times – that they have read the bible. See #11 (just lie).

      Free will:
      7. All people who use the term “free will” really mean the same exact thing by that term, which matches my personal use of the term “free will” (unless backed into a corner, then I just declare all other meanings irrelevant)
      8. Fatalism and determinism are the same thing. It has been pointed out to me that historically these terms have been used with different meanings, but I find it more convenient to make up my own definitions, as with atheism and free will.

      In fact, I brilliantly argued “If a person is a determinist, how in the world does deterrence even come into the picture? Determinists believe in an ever marching set of deterministic outcomes based on an existing set of antecedent conditions. Those conditions march back to the origin of the universe, no way to change the past, so no way to change the future. (On April 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm)

      After reading a bit more about fatalism and determinism I decided to change my tune to a claim that determinism leads to fatalism (and to pretend this was what I was saying all along). I’m sticking to reading easy pop philosophers, though, and selective websites on the topic as anything more complex makes my head hurt. I have read snippets from a couple of websites now so that ought to put me on par with people who’ve read dozens of books on the topic, understand neurobiology and have written on both the philosophical and cultural aspects of free will and people’s belief in the topic. Oh, yeah, I know what I’m talking about!

      9. A determinist cannot believe that humans can change. This would, of course, mean that nothing can change. Which would mean…oh…crud…better put my head back up my ass.
      10. A determinist cannot believe in punishing people for crimes. This is because…well…it doesn’t matter. Just keep repeating it.

      Telling lies:
      11. It is ethical to lie so long as it promotes Christian beliefs.
      12. Speaking of telling lies, a really good way to do this is to rephrase what your opponent says and then keep repeating the misquote in hopes that he or she will get bored and leave your lie as the last statement. Then you win. You can do this either by rewording as a supposed paraphrase or pulling lines out of context and reordering them. God really loves this and gives you extra endurance to sit at the computer all day and keep repeating it.
      13. One way to use this super endurance to your advantage is to keep posting the same questions over and over again even after they’ve been answered 50 times. Just pretend they haven’t been answered and act self-righteous about it. It’s really cool if you can ask this same thing on multiple threads and then claim it was never answered forcing people to waste time on the same thing over and over and over.
      14. In particular don’t forget that whatever someone says you can respond with “What investigation have you done into…”. Especially good is to ask what investigation was done into the truth of the God of Israel. When the non-Christian comes back to ask how much research you did to prove other gods aren’t real answer “I don’t need to do any because I proved the God of Israel is real and that negates all other gods”. When asked how you proved that repeat the words “empty tomb” over and over until divine light shines on the souls of the heathens.
      15. When they refuse to play your game or you don’t like the answer add some sarcasm, but use an emoticon to soften it so they’ll know your snide remarks are all in good fun.
      16. Consider asking completely nonsensical questions that can’t even be understood, let alone answered. Best yet include something the person didn’t say as a premise. For example, you might ask an atheist opponent “You say you like murdering small children on Wednesdays, could you explain how this fits with your beliefs about string theory?” Then when your question is ignored accuse the person of avoidance and make up wild hypotheses as to why they are avoiding you.
      17. Above all else keep asking questions while avoiding answering any yourself.

      Science, math and psychology:
      18. If one scientist says something that backs me, then I can assume all scientists agree with that statement.
      19. If atheist scientists say something, even if it is the view of the majority of people in that science, it should be ignored. See #11.
      20. Atheists are ruled by confirmation bias. I am free of it – it’s just great luck that everything I read and all the “data” around me confirm my strong religious convictions. See #19 on ignoring anything else.
      21. Infinity = all finite numbers according to the Chad. Thirty or forty years of constraint is the same as eternal torment.
      22. Rehabilitation and deterrence are the same thing. Yep…convincing a drug addict not to use drugs in case they are shot dead and getting them off the addiction would be the same by my wondrous Chad logic.

      General truths about the CNN belief blog:
      23. All non-believers are, by definition, idiots so you can use illogical arguments and they’ll just fall for it.
      24. If I post a quote that has a few key words in it from our discussion I can claim it backs my point even if it actually says the exact opposite thing from what I’m claiming. Atheists, as mentioned above, are too dumb to notice. Best yet is to post a link or reference a book which actually says the opposite of what I’m saying and just assume no one will look at it.
      25. There is a huge mass of fence sitters out there who are eagerly reading CNN blog comments in order to decide whether or not to believe in God.
      26. I will personally save all those mentioned in # 25 because I, Chad, am super smart. I know this because I get away with all the above mentioned lies and manipulations. Sometimes people think they are pointing these things out but they really aren’t. Or the stupid atheist masses aren’t reading them anyway.
      27. Phrase everything as if it’s a lecture so you look like you know what you’re talking about. See #23 about atheists being idiots and #24 about people not reading anything you post you’ll see that the silly atheists will fall for it every time. In particular they won’t look back to the earlier part of the discussion to see how I’m contradicting myself. This is very well aided by another tactic:
      28. As soon as you make an ass of yourself break the conversation into a new thread. That way all the newcomers (see #25 on how they are waiting to have their souls saved) will not bother to read back and see how ignorant you are.
      29. If someone points out to you that citing Wikipedia is not an adequate source for the discussion at hand you can always find a good undergraduate philosophy paper to cite instead.
      30. Never question another Christian no matter how incorrect or offensive their position.
      31. Just remember that you can define a term any way you want and you are always right!

      May 13, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Science

      Science

      Where are the ethics and morals......with a talking snake in the grass ........when the old pope toosed out,

      the angels with pitch forks...................was the other cult leader the red devil pi-ssed chad ?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "are you talking about faith that He exists, or faith that He'll do something that you request?"

      Just making a comparison that the "faith" that people have in another person is usually based on experience, i.e. they trust that person to act in a certain way.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • lol??

      "Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

      If you dumb as*s A&A's don't even know or want to know this, why don't you go find another humanoid group to hate?? Start a war, steal, kill, the usual.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • JMEF

      ME II
      You are of course right, I have "faith" that Chad cannot wait to drag out his oft posted BS of why the god of Israel can be anything but real.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      ME II, once again, you and I are in agreement. Faith in another person comes by repeated exposure to that person and the predictable outcome of those encounters. Hence, you will never have faith in God until you draw near to Him, encounter Him repeatedly and experience the consequences of life with Him. Good luck!

      May 13, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Chad

      @Chad "are you talking about faith that He exists, or faith that He'll do something that you request?"

      @ME II "Just making a comparison that the "faith" that people have in another person is usually based on experience, i.e. they trust that person to act in a certain way."

      @Chad "so you are taking about the latter.. faith that God will act a certain way.

      I agree, faith that God will act a certain way is based on experience.

      What are you doing to develop that experience? As you say, one cant have that faith, without that experience.
      Without spending time with someone, how can you have any track record of past experiences to draw upon?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      A lot of agreement, here. Faith in another being comes by repeated exposure to that being and the predictable outcome of those encounters. Hence, you will never have faith in invisible and undetectable unicorns until you draw near to them, encounter them repeatedly and experience the consequences of life with them. Good luck!

      May 13, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      It's great to develop relationships with invisible and undetectable beings. That's the way to get faith, for sure!!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • ME II

      @Bill Deacon,
      "... until you draw near to Him,..."

      And where would that be?

      "... encounter Him repeatedly..."

      again

      "... and experience the consequences of life with Him."

      Has anyone ever experienced such consequences? Not just claimed to, but actually experienced them.

      "Good luck!"

      Thanks, you too!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • Science

      Well Bill ......DO NOT FORGET to take the other half with you.....................that red devil ok ?

      Thast is part of the deal is it NOT Bill ?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "Without spending time with someone, how can you have any track record of past experiences to draw upon?"

      I am not aware of ever avoiding any god. If He chooses not to introduce Himself, then I will happily spend time with Him, or Her.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "And where would that be?"
      @Chad "what does the bible say about where God can be found?
      A person can not rationally claim to have attempted to relate to the God of Israel, unless they have attempted to do so according to the doctrine laid out in the bible.
      right?

      It is irrational to say:
      Person 1: "Bill doesnt exist"
      Person 2: "?? sure he does"
      Person 1: "well, I've never seen him"
      Person 2: "he lives on Oak Street, have you been over there?"
      Person 1: "well, that's stupid, if Bill exists, he should adhere to my standard of establishing the reality of a person, which is that they have to come to my house at 4PM the first Monday of every month."
      Person 2:"well, dont you think it is irrational for you to levy that standard? Not every person that exists shows up at your house on the prescribed day and failing to do so doesnt erase their existence. If you want to know if Bill exists, don't you have to go looking for that evidence?
      Person 1: "you're a moron. Do you believe in unicorns??"

      May 13, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "I am not aware of ever avoiding any god. If He chooses not to introduce Himself, then I will happily spend time with Him, or Her."

      =>really?
      so you have actively sought to experience God thru prayer and the reading of the bible?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Chad often forgets (in addition to many other things) that many of us now free of the dead jew zombie death cult aka christianity actually allegedly spent a lot of time with his alleged god and alleged divine jesus when our parents forced us to attend cult indoctrination sessions, usually held on Sundays. The response from these childhood friends is the same now as then – silence!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • JMEF

      BD If someone does not believe your judgemental god exists how can they possibly experience its non-existence?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • lol??

      Cpt. Obvious, it's obvious you studied under the Beast's doctrines when it comes to UNICORNS. I've seen it over and over and over and over and over and the repeticion had its affect upon YOU.

      from wiki" ......Unicorns are not found in Greek mythology, but rather in accounts of natural history, for Greek writers of natural history were convinced of the reality of the unicorn, which they located in India, a distant and fabulous realm for them....."

      Aristotle, the evolutionist, thought they were cool.

      The Biblical context of unicorn is strength, not a Qweirdo pink light footed girly horse.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Chad

      @HotAirAce "many of us now free of the dead jew zombie death cult aka christianity actually allegedly spent a lot of time with his alleged god and alleged divine jesus when our parents forced us to attend cult indoctrination sessions, usually held on Sundays"

      you feel that "forced us to attend cult indoctrination sessions"
      is the same as
      "seeking thru active prayer and bible reading to discover if the God of Israel is real"

      are the same thing?

      I submit that sitting in a room being forced to listen to something you dont want to hear can hardly be considered an effort by yourself to discover if the God of Israel is real.

      I think you'll be forced to agree with that...

      May 13, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • Chad

      @JMEF " If someone does not believe your judgemental god exists how can they possibly experience its non-existence?"

      =>that is exactly what is known as confirmation bias. A belief on your part that God does not exist, the belief being established prior to any attempt to discover if indeed He does exist.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      At the time, it seemed normal, not forced, and in the earlier years, even something that we looked forward to, but now that we have grown up, we recognize it for what it was – forced indoctrination to meet other's expectations.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • Chad

      @HotAirAce

      have you actively sought to experience God thru prayer and the reading of the bible?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "A person can not rationally claim to have attempted to relate to the God of Israel, unless they have attempted to do so according to the doctrine laid out in the bible.
      right?"

      Only if you believe those are God's instructions. How do you know they are God's instructions? Because, God wrote them?

      "Person 2: 'he lives on Oak Street, have you been over there?'"

      False analogy. A street address is certainly within experienced reality and as such would ample direction in attempting to "spend time with" said person/being.

      The Bible is not asking us to go to an address, but to accept, without evidence, that some address exists, while simultaneously stating that such an address cannot be located by any means. Additionaly, the experience is also supposed to be accepted, without evidence.

      If you are saying to go to -100 East Nonexsitence Ave and imagine Bill being with me. That is not evidence.

      "If you want to know if Bill exists, don't you have to go looking for that evidence?"

      And what evidence would I be looking for exactly? Specifically. I'd like to know.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

      Funny, but that is the same way people "find" all the other gods too, Chad. Read the book of myth, use your imagination in prayer, and you will find Thor, Buddha, Yahweh, Jesus, Quetzlcoatl, Isis, whoever.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Chad
      I have ...many times. I get the same response from talking to a rock.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • Colin

      Chad, have you sought to experience Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, God, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac or Zaramama?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "so you have actively sought to experience God thru prayer and the reading of the bible?"

      Of course. I'm sure it would not be to your satisfaction. I'm sure that, to a believer, it was self-evidently insufficient. But, yes, I have read the Bible and prayed... to no effect, subjectively or objectively.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Not recently, but why would I? Nothing has changed with respect to the truth and validity of religion. There was no evidence when I was a child and there is none now.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      p.s. Mind you, lack of response is not the only reason I lake belief.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • JMEF

      Chad Just because you will not consider my extensive Christian education as suitable to your standards. A dozen years of Sunday school, multiple hours of boring sermons, selected reading of the bible, etc. Of course all the san and sandal biblical epics, for a while I thought Charlton Heston was god until I saw The Omega Man and realized he was a messiah figure an to top that off I am watching all 82 episodes of the Flying Nun for the third time. My standards as a deist are very high.
      PS: BD Frankie is going for some new saints, put in a good word for Sister Bertrille, she should fly in easily.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "A person can not rationally claim to have attempted to relate to the God of Israel, unless they have attempted to do so according to the doctrine laid out in the bible.
      right?"

      @ME II "Only if you believe those are God's instructions. How do you know they are God's instructions? Because, God wrote them?"
      @Chad "well, if you find a book on the ground and it says "rub two sticks together and this extremely hot thing will result and you can put meat on it and transform that meat from raw to a form that is much more fun to eat, and it will keep you warm if you put more sticks on it"
      if you find such a book.. it's pretty useless to say "well, that's nonsense.. I'm not even going to try it.. How do we know that the person who wrote it had any idea what was going to happen? Who is this guy?"

      try what the book says, if it works then either you are looking at an amazing coincidence, or the guy knows what he was talking about.

      ====
      @Chad ""Person 2: 'he lives on Oak Street, have you been over there?'"
      @ME II "False analogy. A street address is certainly within experienced reality and as such would ample direction in attempting to "spend time with" said person/being."
      @Chad "street address is exactly analogous to spending time with God in prayer and reading the bible. Exactly.
      To steal from Robert Brown, "does one go looking for evidence of a whale in the desert?"

      ====
      @ME II "The Bible is not asking us to go to an address, but to accept, without evidence, that some address exists, while simultaneously stating that such an address cannot be located by any means. Additionaly, the experience is also supposed to be accepted, without evidence."
      @Chad "that is absolutely incorrect, the bible says that nowhere. That's what you want the bible to say.

      Faith:
      A. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
      B. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

      ==============
      Faith has essentially two accepted usages in the English language; atheists In this case discard ‘A’ over ‘B’, then attack Christians in that context only, making a further critical and purposeful redefinition of the word “faith”, claiming that proof obviates it.
      Atheists claim that faith and knowledge of, or evidence of the existence of that which faith is being placed, are incompatible. This is patently nonsense in both current secular usage and biblical context.
      Secular usage: “faith” is an accepted concept in modern law. “Good faith”, fiduciary duty is ingrained in contract law, and nowhere does it require a lack of knowledge about the object in which faith is being expressed. “I have faith in John, he will do what he says”, it does not require that one has no knowledge of the true existence of John. Indeed it is nonsensical to have a faith in something you don’t know exists.

      Biblical context: “ And without faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11
      Which faith is being discussed? A faith for which there is no proof? Does proof obviate faith?
      Throughout the bible it is crystal clear that people, whom are commended for their faith, had ample proof of the existence of God PRIOR to their faith being commended.
      Abraham commended for his faith (Hebrews 11) had ample proof (God speaking to him).
      Moses commended for his faith (Hebrews 11) had ample proof (multiple miracles in Egypt, God speaking directly to him, etc, etc).
      In fact, NO WHERE in the bible is definitive proof of the existence of God EVER shown to obviate a person’s faith. Quite the contrary in fact, God promises to reveal Himself, and make Himself known to you if you search after Him. The biblical pattern is ALWAYS the same, God reveals Himself, then asks for a person’s trust in Him. That is biblical faith.

      There is simply no biblical support for proof obviating faith, or the faith that God desires requireing a lack of proof as to His reality.
      None..

      May 13, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • ME II

      D'oh!

      I do believe in lakes, honest I do.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • Chad loves his circular logic

      "There is simply no biblical support for . . . "

      The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true. Round and round we go!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "There is simply no biblical support for . . . "
      @circular logic "The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true. Round and round we go!"

      @Chad "you misunderstand my comment..
      What I am saying is that you can not build a case that the bible says that faith is only real faith if there is no evidence.

      atheists do that a lot, they make a claim that the bible says something, I say, "no.. the bible doesnt say that" and the response is "oh, chad says the bible is true because the bible is true"

      well.. no.. your comment is incorrect. What I am saying is that you cant build a case that the bible is saying what you are claiming it says.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • sam stone

      "have you actively sought to experience God thru prayer and the reading of the bible?"

      have you actively sought to experience God thru the injestion of Psilocybe?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "try what the book says, if it works then either you are looking at an amazing coincidence, or the guy knows what he was talking about."

      1) Your example has a very specific outcome that can be observed.
      2) It hasn't worked for me yet and honestly, although many claim otherwise, I see no evidence that it has ever worked.

      "street address is exactly analogous to spending time with God in prayer and reading the bible. Exactly.
      To steal from Robert Brown, 'does one go looking for evidence of a whale in the desert?'"

      You must have a different definition of "exactly", than I. I know what a street is and I know how to read a map. All due respect to Robert Brown, but I know what a desert is also, and what an ocean is.

      "that is absolutely incorrect, the bible says that nowhere. That's what you want the bible to say."

      Sorry, I was building on your analogy. It does not literaly say that, no, you are correct.

      "B. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

      I don't disagree. As I said, I was merely comparing the two.

      "Atheists claim that faith and knowledge of, or evidence of the existence of that which faith is being placed, are incompatible. "

      I don't know about "incompatible" per se, but once evidence is present, one can use the "A" definition instead of the "B" definition, right?
      However, I would not disagree, that if one had evidence of a god, that would not "obviate" a "Strong belief" in that god.

      Sorry, I didn't read the rest...

      May 13, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad ""have you actively sought to experience God thru prayer and the reading of the bible?"
      @sam stone "have you actively sought to experience God thru the injestion of Psilocybe?"

      @Chad "I'll take that to mean you never tried, just assumed from the outset that the God of Israel isnt real and just proceeded to mock those that believed otherwise.

      now, if you never tried, what do you base your disbelief on?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • LMAO!

      "The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true. Round and round we go!"

      LMAO! So true! LOL!

      May 13, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • sam stone

      "now, if you never tried, what do you base your disbelief on?"

      back atcha, chard

      May 13, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      It's easy to lack belief in invisible and undetectable beings.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, Will you be answering Colin's question? You've been asked many times why your god is more convincing to you than the thousands of others: each have as much evidence as yours; many have a significant following.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "try what the book says, if it works then either you are looking at an amazing coincidence, or the guy knows what he was talking about."
      @ME II "Your example has a very specific outcome that can be observed."
      @Chad "absolutely, and so does reading the bible and praying – seeking after Him."

      ===
      @ME II "It hasn't worked for me yet and honestly, although many claim otherwise, I see no evidence that it has ever worked."
      @Chad "I think you can claim the first, but utterly impossible to claim the second.
      The first is tricky, I dont discount it (crying out and seemingly getting no response) as I have been there done that.
      What I will say is that according to the bible:
      If we seek after Him with our whole heart, He will be found
      God is strong in our weakness.

      so, and I apologize for this in advance, but this works: pray that God will give you a humble and contrite heart. In essence that God will break you down from self reliance and enable you to hear from Him.

      as I said, I have been there and done that. Read Psalm 51.

      Christianity isnt "fake it till you make it" or "believe it is true and it is". The God of Israel is REAL.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • .

      "Chad, Will you be answering Colin's question? You've been asked many times why your god is more convincing to you than the thousands of others: each have as much evidence as yours; many have a significant following."

      Chard skips over the hard questions because it doesn't fit their agenda on this blog. See the gospel according to Chad above.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • .

      "The God of Israel is REAL."

      WRONG!

      May 13, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Christianity is "fake it till you make it" and "believe it is true and it is". The God of Israel is demonstrably FALSE

      May 13, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Chad

      @Colin "Chad, have you sought to experience Azura Mazda..."

      =>no, as I have said a million times, I have a reason that I dont need to. Since the God of Israel IS real, then all the other gods are fake.

      Believers have a reason not to investigate the others.
      atheists can claim that that reason isnt real
      but
      atheists can't claim that the believers do have a reason and athests dont.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "The God of Israel is demonstrably FALSE"

      Please demonstrate it then.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • DavidTX

      @Chad ""Person 2: 'he lives on Oak Street, have you been over there?'"
      @ME II "False analogy. A street address is certainly within experienced reality and as such would ample direction in attempting to "spend time with" said person/being."
      @Chad "street address is exactly analogous to spending time with God in prayer and reading the bible. Exactly.
      To steal from Robert Brown, "does one go looking for evidence of a whale in the desert?"

      It's exactly analogous if you know the nature of God like you do a whale. The fact is, you do not. You imagine his nature with imaginings created here on earth, so you and everyone else on this planet assign your God very mortal features, a white beard, an all knowing face and apparently a cosmic penis as you keep claiming he is male. You have no idea where to look because the concept of God comes from nowhere but the minds of man and thus that is the only place one can seek him, through the writings and wonderings of humans, which is why there are so many writings about God, none of which confirm God and almost all of them conflict with eachother.

      Zoorbnoofer. Thats a new word that just came straight from the mind of man and it means that thing that resides in the darkest place inside our minds that all humans are afraid to look at and appears different for each human willing to take a good long hard stare at it instead of closing their eyes and turning their head in fear. Chads looks just like a picture of himself being wrong which is the thing he fears most so closes his eyes to the truth and cries himself to sleep each night.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Chad

      should have read:

      "atheists can't claim that the believers dont have a reason and athests do".

      May 13, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      The god of israel is demonstrably false in that he is a completely inconsistent character which precludes his existence. Or, if you prefer, the many fallacies in the bible show him to be either evil or a figment of fairy tale/imagination. It makes more sense to believe god is a figment of fairy tale or imagination than that he is evil.

      Demonstrated.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, How did you determine that there is a a god and that it is your god? There is no more evidence for one god than any other.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Jack Zoorbnoofer

      DavidTX said, "Zoorbnoofer. Thats a new word.."

      ಠ_ಠ
      wut

      May 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "absolutely, and so does reading the bible and praying – seeking after Him."

      What outcome would that be?

      "Christianity isnt "fake it till you make it" or "believe it is true and it is". The God of Israel is REAL."

      Well it sure does a convincing job of looking that way.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "The god of israel is demonstrably false in that he is a completely inconsistent character which precludes his existence."

      You mean he is inconsistent with his portrayal within the Tanakh? Then it sounds like you have a problem with that instead of God.

      "Or, if you prefer, the many fallacies in the bible show him to be either evil or a figment of fairy tale/imagination. It makes more sense to believe god is a figment of fairy tale or imagination than that he is evil."

      Again, the problem you seem to have is the fallibility of the text than that of God. Though you are making an error in trying to define a supposably infinite being with a finite text.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Not a GOPer and nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      I haven't slogged through 1000 posts, but rather than arguments orthogonal to the topic, let's discuss this question:

      "Is 'gay Christian' an oxymoron?"

      May 13, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • .

      "Though you are making an error in trying to define a supposably infinite being with a finite text."

      Prove this statement true.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      God is irrelevant because he is invisible and undetectable, so we certainly can't find out from him. The bible describes god as being perfect, good, holy, and just, and then goes on to describe the most horrific character imaginable. (What kind of terrorist azzhole allows a place of eternal torture to exist when he could eliminate it?)

      The god of israel is demonstrably false.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "absolutely, and so does reading the bible and praying – seeking after Him."
      @ME II "What outcome would that be?"
      @Chad "a certain experiential knowledge on your part that the God of Israel is real"

      =====
      @GOPer I haven't slogged through 1000 posts, but rather than arguments orthogonal to the topic, let's discuss this question: "Is 'gay Christian' an oxymoron?"
      @Chad "no more so than:
      "divorced Christian"
      "Christian that engages in adultery"
      "Christian that lies, cheats, steals"

      – As I engage in some of those behaviors myself, I dont condemn a gay Christian.
      – As I dont expect my fellow Christians to endorse or encourage my sinful behavior, neither do I think it correct to endorse or encourage gay behavior.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Not a GOPer and nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      "As I dont expect my fellow Christians to endorse or encourage my sinful behavior, neither do I think it correct to endorse or encourage gay behavior."

      Fair enough. Do you concur with the author's premise?

      Essentially that "Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good" and that evangelical Protestants need to turn down the public anti-gay rhetoric.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "a certain experiential knowledge on your part that the God of Israel is real"

      Sorry, but "experiential knowledge" is not very specific and it certainly can't be observed.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Chad

      @GOPer "Fair enough. Do you concur with the author's premise?
      Essentially that "Perhaps a lesson in Jesus-style humility might do us all some good" and that evangelical Protestants need to turn down the public anti-gay rhetoric."

      @Chad "I think that there is an inaccurate perception that the church has singled out gay rights as an object of criticism in large part because a small, vociferous minority is attempting to get everyone to endorse it as approved and acceptable behavior and baits the church.

      I also think that the church has focused on that, because few of them are gay, and all of them are cheaters/liars/stealers/adulterers.

      so the answer is, yes and no. We as Christians should be treating all sinful behavior equally, and a small minority is baiting the church.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad "a certain experiential knowledge on your part that the God of Israel is real"

      @ME II "Sorry, but "experiential knowledge" is not very specific and it certainly can't be observed."

      @Chad "A. We dont get to define what we will accept as evidence
      B. experiential knowledge IS knowledge
      C. "observed"? by who?

      kind of like:
      "I accept that Bob exists only if he comes to my house at 4PM and meets my wife and myself"
      Bob comes up to you in the supermarket and says "Hi, I'm Bob"

      you would be considered irrational to claim that Bob doesnt exist because he didnt adhere to your "existence protocol"

      right?

      May 13, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • @chad

      The god of israel claims he is the only true god, and makes several references to other gods in his fairy handbook.

      The god of Israel is demonstrably false.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • Chad

      "The god of Israel is demonstrably false."

      so, demonstrate it

      May 13, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      God's existence is irrelevant due to his invisibility and undetectability. There is no verifiable evidence for god because he either does not exist or he does not care to demonstrate his existence. After all, there's no disagreement among the various god believers over math or chemistry.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • @chad

      The bible claims that the god of israel created the universe including the earth and everything on it in 6 days, and the genealogy from adam to jesus puts the earth’s age at approximately 6000 years. Many independent fields of science puts the earth’s age at approximately 4.5 billion years, and the known universe at approximately 18.8 billion years.

      The god of Israel is demonstrably false.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
    • @chad

      *correction 13.8, not 18.8

      May 13, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cpt. Obvious "God's existence is irrelevant due to his invisibility and undetectability. There is no verifiable evidence for god because he either does not exist or he does not care to demonstrate his existence. After all, there's no disagreement among the various god believers over math or chemistry."

      =>so much irrationality in one statement..
      1. natural cant detect non-natural by definition, sonar cant detect light either.
      2. "no verifiable" is completely opinion on your part, made very weak by your admission that you have not attempted to seek to determine if God is real, choosing instead to start off with the assumption that He isnt.
      3. "there's no disagreement among the various god believers over math or chemistry" what do you think that implies?

      May 13, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Chad

      @chad "The bible claims that the god of israel created the universe including the earth and everything on it in 6 days, and the genealogy from adam to jesus puts the earth’s age at approximately 6000 years. Many independent fields of science puts the earth’s age at approximately 4.5 billion years, and the known universe at approximately 18.8 billion years."

      =>the bible makes a claim NOWHERE about the age of the earth.

      You want to infer that it does, because you feel that gives you something to criticize, but the reality is that it claims an age nowhere.

      right?

      May 13, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      1. Irrelevant. God cannot be detected; therefore, all statements or beliefs about him are mere azzumptions.
      2. I and many other believers have attempted to determine if god is real and have come to the obvious conclusion that he is invisible and undetectable and therefore all statements or beliefs about his existence or desires are azzumptions.
      3. If god were real and wanted to be verifiable he could make his existence and will as known and certain as the applicable (and therefore obvious) principles of math or chemistry. That god does not make his existence and will as known as math or chemsitry then he does not care what we azzume about him--or he does not exist.

      God's existene is irrelevant because he is invisible and undetectable. Demonstrated.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • Science

      But cod is good to eat chad................... with the pitch fork from your partner the red devil

      May 13, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • WASP

      @chad: " made very weak by your admission that you have not attempted to seek to determine if God is real, choosing instead to start off with the assumption that He isnt."

      1) how is our stand point any weaker than yours'?
      2) we don't assume, we evaluate. starting from a non-bias view; you begin with zero and work forward. haven't seen anything to move the needle to one yet.
      3) "you have not attempted to seek to determine if God is real"
      the samething can be said about you and the other millions of gods out there. when you find a way to test the other gods we will use the same method to test your god.

      until proven otherwise pink elephants and blue kangaroos are fantasy, so is god.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • @chad

      the bible makes a claim NOWHERE about the age of the earth.
      You want to infer that it does, because you feel that gives you something to criticize, but the reality is that it claims an age nowhere.
      right?

      No but it DOES contain the genealogy from jesus all the way back to adam, and ANY IDIOT can add up the years and arrive at the age of creation at approximately 4000 BC, which would make the earth approximately 6000 years old.

      You want to infer that it doesn’t, because you feel that it will be criticized, but the reality is that it claims exactly that.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:35 pm |
    • Not a GOPer and nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      "We as Christians should be treating all sinful behavior equally,"

      No argument from me there.

      "and a small minority is baiting the church."

      I'd say "the church" (or more accurately those Evangelical Protestant mouthpieces who confuse religion with politics) is baiting a small minority.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cpt. Obvious

      "light is irrelevant because it cant be detected by sonar"..
      1. dont think that makes any sense. do you?
      2. using that irrational logic to then validate the erroneous conclusion you came to as a result doesnt make any sense.

      You can claim that the God of Israel isnt real, but you can not claim that using a "detection methology" that by definition will not work, is a valid way to back up that statement.

      Your entire argument proceeds from "God is only real if we can use a scientific experiment to demonstrate it". And, that's nonsense.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • Chad

      @GOPer "I'd say "the church" (or more accurately those Evangelical Protestant mouthpieces who confuse religion with politics) is baiting a small minority."

      =>really? so this was a huge topic of discussion prior to the emergence of "in your face" LBGT?

      🙂
      no..

      May 13, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Light is detectable; god isn't. Thanks for making my point.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cpt. Obvious "Light is detectable; god isn't. Thanks for making my point."

      =>not by sonar 🙂

      May 13, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      No, Chad, I'm not saying whether or not god is "real." Learn to read.

      I'm saying that god's existence is IRRELEVANT because he is undetectable by any verifiable method. If a thing cannot be detected by any method which can be conclusively verified, then it's irrelevant. Your invisible sky wizard is irrelevant because he is undetectable.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Light is detectable and relevant. God is undetectable and irrelevant. Sonar's properties are a red herring, fishmonger.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      recap
      Chad: "well, if you find a book on the ground and it says 'rub two sticks together and this extremely hot thing will result and you can put meat on it and transform that meat from raw to a form that is much more fun to eat, and it will keep you warm if you put more sticks on it'
      if you find such a book.. it's pretty useless to say "well, that's nonsense.. I'm not even going to try it.. How do we know that the person who wrote it had any idea what was going to happen? Who is this guy?"

      try what the book says, if it works then either you are looking at an amazing coincidence, or the guy knows what he was talking about."

      ME II: "1) Your example has a very specific outcome that can be observed."

      Chad: "absolutely, and so does reading the bible and praying – seeking after Him."

      ME II; "What outcome would that be?"

      Chad: "a certain experiential knowledge on your part that the God of Israel is real"

      ME II: "Sorry, but 'experiential knowledge' is not very specific and it certainly can't be observed."

      Chad: "A. We dont get to define what we will accept as evidence
      B. experiential knowledge IS knowledge
      C. "observed"? by who?"

      ME II:
      A) Not sure what this means. Then who decides?
      B) I didn't say it wasn't. I said it is not a specific outcome, e.g. everyone's experience can, and most likely is different, e.g. eye-witnesses are not very reliable, etc.
      C) Your example of rubbing two sticks together would be observable by any unbiased observer... that would be acceptable.

      "I accept that Bob exists only if he comes to my house at 4PM and meets my wife and myself"

      Straw man. I never made any claim like this. In fact, I didn't agree with your analogy, let alone propose a "protocol".

      "you would be considered irrational to claim that Bob doesnt exist because he didnt adhere to your 'existence protocol'"

      1) I don't know of any "existence protocol", short of non-contradiction.
      2) It would be irrational to accept existence without any evidence or reason to think he may exist.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, Presumably you are saying that one had the appropriate tool on could find god. If so what is it that finds an undetectable thing, obviously faith alone is insufficient.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cpt. Obvious "I'm saying that god's existence is IRRELEVANT because he is undetectable by any verifiable method. If a thing cannot be detected by any method which can be conclusively verified, then it's irrelevant. Your invisible sky wizard is irrelevant because he is undetectable."

      =>so, that is an incredibly irrational thing to claim.
      If God IS real, you have a MAJOR problem coming your way. You can not possible make make that statement.
      right? That simply can not be argued, unless you believed in an argument that said "well, you werent detectable by my protocol, so I am justified in proceeding as if you didnt exist"

      do you think that is a good argument?

      IMHO, you better know if God is real or not. Saying that it is irrelevant because He cant be scientifically detected is a catastrophically weak argument.

      May 13, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • ME II

      Sorry, that probably should be:
      "2) It would be irrational to accept existence without any evidence or reason to think he does exist."

      May 13, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Not a GOPer and nor do I play one on TV

      @Chad,

      was .... "this was a huge topic of discussion prior to the emergence of "in your face" LBGT?

      If by "in your face LBGT" you mean the marriage equality movement, then, 'no'. But now it is.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      If something cannot be detected, there's nothing you can do about it and all azzumptions are just that. God is invisible and undetectable, so it is stupid to make azzumptions with no way to detect if the azzumptions are anywhere close to the truth.

      What's the difference between me owning an invisible and undetectable dragon and me not owning an invisible and undetectable dragon?

      And Chad, you honor me when you claim my reasoning is poor; I would be much more concerned if you thought it was sound because of the frequency and degree of your lies and distortions.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @ The Dot
      "Though you are making an error in trying to define a supposably infinite being with a finite text." Prove this statement true."

      Which part? That God is supposablty infinite? That the text is finite? Or that the person I was commnnting to was making a supposition?

      May 13, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I know you don't realize this, Chad, but what you've described is precisely what someone might come up with to frighten a child into behaving: If you are disobedient the boogeyman will come for you. And you'd better believe it or he'll come for you just for not believing.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • ME II

      @Cpt. Obvious,
      While I likely agree with your position, I don't think your logic is inaccurate.

      "God's existene is irrelevant because he is invisible and undetectable. Demonstrated."

      You don't know that God is undetectable. He has not been detected yet, but to claim He is not detectable at all, is not accurate. IMO

      May 13, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Sorry, boogeyman = the God of Israel®.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Cpt. Obvious- "God is irrelevant because he is invisible and undetectable, so we certainly can't find out from him. The bible describes god as being perfect,"

      I do not believe "perfect" was ever an attribute of God within the text. Besides, what you see as perfect for an infinite being is very subjective and based on nothing but ignorance right?

      I still say you have a problem with the text more than you do with God.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      What kind of stupid god would make himself not understandable in a text about himself and then judge people who don't understand him? The god of the bible is demonstrably stupid because god would not make such stupid mistakes as are found in the bible. I'd rather not insult such a stupid god by believing he was that stupid.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • Joe
      "IMHO, you better know if God is real or not. Saying that it is irrelevant because He cant be scientifically detected is a catastrophically weak argument." And using your imagination to say that it is there is a huge catastrophic! You better know if (Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan China (170): Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch'ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T'eng-k'ang, Chen Kao, Ch'eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch'ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch'ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T'i, Ch'ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch'an, Di Jun, Fan K'uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch'iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T'u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T'ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch'ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T'ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P'an Niang, P'an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch'uan, Phan Ku, P'i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch'ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T'ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T'ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts'an Nu, Ts'ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T'shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T'ung Chung-chung, T'ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T'ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch'ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch'iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T'ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhin, Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch'ang-O balto slavic: (125) Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt'ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb'a, Jedza, Joda-mate, Kaldas, Kaltes, Keretkun, Khadau, Khursun (Khors), Kostrubonko, Kovas, Krumine, Kupala, Kupalo, Laima, Leshy, Marina, Marzana, Matergabiae, Mat Syra Zemlya, Medeine, Menu (Menulis), Mir-Susne-Khum, Myesyats, Nastasija, (Russia) Goddess of sleep., Nelaima, Norov, Numi-Tarem, Nyia, Ora, Ot, Patollo, Patrimpas, Pereplut, Perkuno, Perun, Pikuolis, Pilnytis, Piluitus, Potrimpo, Puskaitis, Rod, Rugevit, Rultennin, Rusalki, Sakhadai-Noin, Saule, Semargl, Stribog, Sudjaje, Svantovit (Svantevit, Svitovyd), Svarazic (Svarozic, Svarogich), Tengri, Tairgin, Triglav, Ulgen (Ulgan, lgn), Veles (Volos), Vesna, Xatel-Ekwa, Xoli-Kaltes, Yamm, Yarilo, Yarovit, Ynakhsyt, Zaria, Zeme mate, Zemyna, Ziva (Siva), Zizilia, Zonget, Zorya, Zvoruna, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zywie Hindu (72): Aditi, Adityas, Ambika, Ananta (Shesha), Annapurna (Annapatni), Aruna, Ashvins, Balarama, Bhairavi, Brahma, Buddha, Dakini, Devi, Dharma, Dhisana, Durga, Dyaus, Ganesa (Ganesha), Ganga (Ganges), Garuda, Gauri, Gopis, Hanuman, Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha Japan (53): Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, Shine-Tsu-Hiko, Shoten, Susa-no-wo, Tajika-no-mikoto, Tsuki-yomi, Uka no Mitanna, Uke-mochi, Uso-dori, Uzume, Wakahirume, Yainato-Hnneno-Mikoi, Yama-No-Kami, Yama-no-Karni, Yaya-Zakurai, Yuki-Onne India (43) Agni, Ammavaru, Asuras, Banka-Mundi, Brihaspati, Budhi Pallien, Candi, Challalamma, Chinnintamma, Devas, Dyaush, Gauri-Sankar, Grhadevi, Gujeswari, Indra, Kali, Lohasur Devi, Mayavel, Mitra, Prajapati, Puchan, Purandhi, Rakshas, Rudrani, Rumina, Samundra, Sarasvati, Savitar, Siva (Shiva), Soma, Sura, Surabhi, Tulsi, Ushas, Vata, Visvamitra, Vivasvat, Vritra, Waghai Devi, Yaparamma, Yayu, Zumiang Nui, Diti Other Asian: (31) Dewi Shri, Po Yan Dari, Shuzanghu, Antaboga, Yakushi Nyorai, Mulhalmoni, Tankun, Yondung Halmoni, Aryong Jong, Quan Yin , Tengri, Uminai-gami, Kamado-No-Kami, Kunitokotatchi, Giri Devi, Dewi Nawang Sasih, Brag-srin-mo, Samanta-Bhadra, Sangs-rgyas-mkh, Sengdroma, Sgeg-mo-ma, Tho-og, Ui Tango, Yum-chen-mo, Zas-ster-ma-dmar-mo, Chandra, Dyaus, Ratri, Rodasi, Vayu, Au-Co African: 250 Gods, Demigods and First Men Abassi , Abuk , Adu Ogyinae , Ag, Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Ef�, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, G, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, Hbiesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Leb, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyamb, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui'goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru, Australian: 93 Gods, Goddesses and Places in the Dreamtime Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi, Buddhism: 10 Gods and Relatives of God Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O, Carribean: 62 Gods, Monsters and Vodun Spirits Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairm, Clairmezin, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aime, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sir�ne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka, Celtic: 166 Gods, Goddesses, Divine Kings and Pagan Saints Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D'Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu'Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady, Egyptian: 85 Gods, Gods Incarnate and Personified Divine Forces: Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth, Hellenes (Greek) Tradition (540 Gods, Demigods, Divine Bastards) Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros Native American: 711 Gods, Heroes, and Anthropomorphized Facets of Nature Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-a, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirap� , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolo
      May 13, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, The only reason religion and god have any relevance is because they have permeated our society and lives for historical reasons – i.e. before we understood that eclipses, thunder, lightning, etc. were not an indication of a god's displeasure.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      I do not have any problems with the following beings because there is no evidence that they exist:

      1. unicorns
      2. fairies
      3. gods

      May 13, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
    • ME II

      @Lycidas,
      "I still say you have a problem with the text more than you do with God."

      If He wants clarify things, I'm happy to listen.
      If we can't go by the supposed holy text, then what?

      May 13, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Matthew 5: 48 says that god is perfect. There are other scriptrues as well. Shameful that an atheist should have to tell you this.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • Lycidas

      ME II- "If He wants clarify things, I'm happy to listen."

      You would would you?

      "If we can't go by the supposed holy text, then what?"

      Does faith originate with texts?

      @Cpt. Obvious- "Matthew 5: 48 says that god is perfect. There are other scriptrues as well. Shameful that an atheist should have to tell you this."

      My apologizes but I was thinking more on the Tanakh since that was the texts we were talking about. But if you want to jump from one religion to another...eh..ok. Atheists sometimes have a bad habit of jumping from one faith to another when they are trying to make a point.
      Shame? I feel no shame nor see any reason to. But your concern is noted thank you.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • Lycidas

      I do not have any problems with the following because there is no evidence that they exist:

      1. Any love that Capt. Obvious's mother has for him.
      2. Any love that Capt. Obvious's supposed friends have for him.
      3. Any hate that Capt. Obvious's enemies have for him.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      I was always talking about the bible of which Matthew is a part.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • ME II

      @Lycidas,
      "You would would you?"

      What are you trying to say?

      "Does faith originate with texts?"

      If not for the texts, would there be any knowledge of this supposed god?
      What's your alternative?

      May 13, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Moby Schtick- "I was always talking about the bible of which Matthew is a part."

      Ok, but I ws talking to the Capt about the Tanakh that does not have Matthew in it.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @ME II- "What are you trying to say?"

      In my experience, when ppl say they would be open to clarification..they usually aren't but are just so certain in there position that they feel safe to say that. If you are one of the rare ones that have an open mind, I apologize.

      "If not for the texts, would there be any knowledge of this supposed god? What's your alternative?"

      Well, the method of oral tradition seemed to have kept faith alive for most of human history. Also, I do not feel that any religious texts should be the begin all and end all of one's faith. Texts serve as a tool for one's spirituality but shouldn't be a person's spiritual crutch.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "I don't know of any "existence protocol", short of non-contradiction."
      @Chad "the bible defines as existence protocol, see Deuteronomy 4, Hebrews 10
      "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

      have you tried it?

      ===
      @ME "It would be irrational to accept existence without any evidence or reason to think he may exist."
      @Chad "I agree.
      but, we have reason, and we can experience evidence.

      but, without trying, you certainly cant claim none exists. You arent going to find a whale in the desert.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @Lycidas,
      I was earnest in my statement, but not necessarily how you read it.

      "If He wants clarify things, I'm happy to listen."

      I would be thrilled to hear from the source, whether I agreed or not, but clarification from others who claim to "understand", not as much.

      Oral tradition was mostly destroyed by print or at least printing and not really reliable anyway. If not for the text, I don't know how people today would even know of any particular god.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Oral tradition was mostly destroyed by print or at least printing and not really reliable anyway. If not for the text, I don't know how people today would even know of any particular god, creed, philosophy, science, history..etc.

      Most complex issues or topics probably requires some form of written language beyond oral retelling. That I agree with. But such topics can be passed down through oral tradition, even if they are not 100% reliable. If one is to consider Abraham was a historcal figure..then from his time to that of at least that of the Exodus/Joshua time period..then the faith was passed down primarily by oral tradition. Chances are that the majority of the faith in the history covered by the Tanakh was passed on to the everyday person by oral and not the written word.

      May 13, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      By "existence protocol" I assumed that you meant a proof of negation, which does not exist, except for contradiction. Your Biblical "protocol" is purely subjective and self full filling. If I seek with "all [my] heart and with all [my] soul" would that not imply that I already believed Him to be real. Of course, I find reason to believe Him real if I already believe He is real.

      "have you tried it?"

      Rhetorical BS, if I had tried the above, I would not needed to have tried the above, because I would have already believed.

      ===
      "but, we have reason, and we can experience evidence."

      I disagree that you have empirical evidence and 'experiential evidence' only works for the one having the experience. i.e. it's subjective.

      Therefore, I disagree that there is "reason" to believe.

      "but, without trying, you certainly cant claim none exists."

      I can certainly claim that you have not shown objective evidence.

      "You arent going to find a whale in the desert."

      I can if I put one there. That's a silly analogy. My ability to detect and identify a whale is not contingent upon my location nor whether there are whales present. Apparently, not so with God, because he is supposedly everywhere.

      Show one example of objective "spiritual evidence", and we'll have something to discuss. (I think it was you who used that term. If not, apologies.)

      May 13, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • ME II

      @Lycidas,
      I guess I wasn't clear. I'm saying that in today's world, few if any are going to learn of a particular god strictly by oral history. Most, if not all, introduction to religion will be done from text, if not directly, then indirectly. The text that you disregard, appears to me to be the only introduction people get any more.

      May 13, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • Lycidas

      ME II- "The text that you disregard, appears to me to be the only introduction people get any more."

      I have not disregarded any relavent text. The topic was about the God of Israel. From my experience that would aim toward the Tanakh (Old Testament). Now if the one I was talking with originally meant a more generic term like "God" then I could see the obvious inclusion of the New Testament.

      But back on the use of written texts. Yes, written texts are important but as I said, they serve as a tool and not an absolute within the faith. Many, oddly enough mostly atheists or fundies, think of the written texts as an absolute but I do not.

      May 13, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
    • ME II

      @Lycidas,
      "Yes, written texts are important but as I said, they serve as a tool and not an absolute within the faith."

      Fair enough. Perhaps I misunderstood.

      May 13, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II

      1. You want a existence protocol that can prove that God doesnt exist, and then when that can be shown it fails, proves God exists? (seems like an obvious dodge to avoid answering the question, "why dont you try and seek God?")

      2. You dont feel that seeking God is valid, because you claim one has to believe in Him before seeking Him? (seems like an obvious dodge to avoid answering the question, "why dont you try and seek God?")

      3. having an experience isnt by definition "subjective", any more than finding a tree in the woods while you are out hiking alone is subjective.. (seems like an obvious dodge to avoid answering the question, "why dont you try and seek God?")

      4. Claiming that someone hasnt shown objective evidence, because the way to determine if God is real is a one on one process seems like an obvious dodge to avoid answering the question, "why dont you try and seek God?".

      5 "I can if I put one there. That's a silly analogy. My ability to detect and identify a whale is not contingent upon my location nor whether there are whales present. Apparently, not so with God, because he is supposedly everywhere."
      A. indicative of your need to have God meet you on your terms
      B. the analogy would perhaps be better framed as "one doesnt attempt to detect light with a sonar", the point being you have to use the prescribed mechanism to get results.

      6. You are badly misusing the term "objective"

      objective(of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

      having an individual experience confirming the existence of God is objective.

      May 13, 2013 at 6:52 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Chad

      That's one of the most as.s-backwards posts I've ever seen from you, which is saying something because you are constantly writing those, but this one... well lets just say, ending on saying an individual experience is somehow objective... well that just takes the cake.

      Chad, twisting yourself into knots is only hurting you, it has in no way strengthened your argument.

      May 13, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
    • Chad

      Perhaps this will help:

      Objective: Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

      Subjective: Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions

      Experience: Practical contact with and observation of facts or events. Encounter or undergo (an event or occurrence).

      If I am out on a hike and meet another person, I am having an objective experience.

      I have this nagging sense that you, at the base of your belief about Christians, have this notion that "all Christians know that God doesnt exist, but they just "believe" anyway"..

      which, is not accurate at all.. Christians have met a "person" that you havent met yet.
      but will.

      May 13, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      "why dont you try and seek God?"

      A) As I said, I have. It didn't work. Obviously, you likely won't agree that it was a sufficient attempt, but how do you know? What objective criteria do you use?

      B) I see no reason to try any further as there is no objective evidence that indicates a god exists.

      "1. You want a existence protocol that can prove that God doesnt exist, and then when that can be shown it fails, proves God exists? "

      Are you claiming that a negative "existence protocol" exists? and that it failed? and such failur "proves" Gods's existence?
      What are you talking about exactly?

      "2. You dont feel that seeking God is valid, because you claim one has to believe in Him before seeking Him?"

      I don't feel that "evidence" that is predicated on belief is sufficient to warrent investigation, no. Otherwise, I would be hunting UFOs and big foot.

      "3. having an experience isnt by definition "subjective", any more than finding a tree in the woods while you are out hiking alone is subjective.. "

      The experience is absolutely subjective; no one else will ever have the same experience. The tree however is objective, i.e. anyone can check to see if it is a tree.

      "4. Claiming that someone hasnt shown objective evidence, because the way to determine if God is real is a one on one process "

      Not sure what you are saying here.

      5"A. indicative of your need to have God meet you on your terms"

      I would like some objective evidence, yes. That doesn't seem too much to ask.

      5"B. the analogy would perhaps be better framed as 'one doesnt attempt to detect light with a sonar', the point being you have to use the prescribed mechanism to get results."

      Okay, tell me what light meter to use, what reading I should find and why, and let's get started. Mind you, though, such things need to be rational, e.g. pointing a light meter at the sun and saying, 'see, God exists' is obviously incorrect.

      "6. You are badly misusing the term 'objective'"
      "objective(of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

      Try the rest of that OED definition:

      Definition of objective
      adjective
      1(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts:
      historians try to be objective and impartial
      Contrasted with subjective.
      not dependent on the mind for existence; actual:
      a matter of objective fact

      (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/objective)

      "having an individual experience confirming the existence of God is objective."

      What?

      I was talking about objective evidence, not experience. You had mentioned, "experiential knowledge", though I am not entirely certain what that is, but a purely subjective experience, i.e. no objective phenomena, does not qualify as objective evidence, because no one else can tell if it even happened let alone if it's true.

      Your example of finding a tree on a hike, is not a purely subjective experience. There would be objective evidence of that event, e.g. foot prints, mud on shoes, pollen/etc. on clothing, the tree itself.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:14 am |
    • ME II

      Reposting the last at the end. Currently pg 17

      May 14, 2013 at 10:19 am |
    • Chad

      @ME II "What objective criteria do you use?"
      @Chad "I dont have any, that's a question you'll have to answer for yourself"

      ===
      @ME II "I see no reason to try any further as there is no objective evidence that indicates a god exists."
      @Chad "define what objective evidence you would view as acceptable (that always kills that conversation 🙂 )"

      "1. You want a existence protocol that can prove that God doesnt exist, and then when that can be shown it fails, proves God exists? "

      ===
      @ME II "I don't feel that "evidence" that is predicated on belief is sufficient to warrent investigation, no. Otherwise, I would be hunting UFOs and big foot."
      @Chad "origin of the universe, origin of life, universe obeys laws, free will, Jesus. All of that is evidence, and it warrants investigation.

      ==
      the remainder of your post has to do with the nature of the experience.

      If you meet a person, that is an objective experience. God offers you no less an objective experience.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:46 am |
    • Paul

      Keep in mind that if you do exactly as Chad asks, and come to a different conclusion than Chad that just means you did it wrong.

      May 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm |
  2. Son of God

    I never came out of the closet and none of the guys ratted me out. Some of the forever hidden docu-ments in the Vatican catacombs would prove what I say is true.

    May 13, 2013 at 11:06 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      yes ... a man, who was never married, traveling around the country with 12 other men ... sounds gay to me.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Science

      Where are the ethics and morals....................with a talking snake in the grass ..............when the old pope toosed out

      the angels with pitch forks...................was the other cult leader the red devil pi-ssed ?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:19 am |
  3. Dyslexic doG

    We live in the USA where we are oppressed by much of the populous using the Bible and Christianity as justification for the oppression.

    Is it any wonder we comment on this bronze age, nonsensical voodoo the way we do?

    May 13, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Odd they think we go after just christianity which is untrue. We have an issue with any religious system , as they are all created by men...they think we are picking on them, when I have never seen one honest enough to defend their belief system. They get frustrated and then claim we hate them, when it really is the frustration of defending blind faith that THEY hate, and then reflect it on us.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • Topher

      Really? What is it that you'd like to do but can't because the Bible says you can't? How have you been oppressed?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:08 am |
    • tallulah13

      Bigotry based on mythology is wrong, Topher. If you had a single independent thought in your head, you could possible comprehend that.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • Topher

      Tallulah

      Can you answer my questions?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      REALLY??? We are posting under a blog talking about how gay people can't be married because of your religion and you ask me that question? Hilarious!

      There are countless ways your bronze age voodoo affects my life and my family's life every day. You suppress science, you oppress women. You bully and badger anyone not believing as you do. The list goes on and on ...

      May 13, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • sam stone

      gays cannot marry those of the same gender because folks like gopher refuse to allow them equal rights because it would be "endorsing their sin" or some other codeword for bigotry

      May 13, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • Colin

      Tropher. Areas where legislation is based wholly or partially on the Bible.

      1. Laws that prohibit or limit alcohol consumption on Sundays.
      2. Laws that try and limit the teaching of evolution in school.
      3. Laws that limit access to contraceptives.
      4. LAws that limit a woman's right to choose.
      5. Laws that limit gay rights.
      6. Laws that limit immunization against HPV.

      That is just from my head. I'm sure there are more.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      I suspect that technically the intent was 'oppressed by believers of the Bible'.

      But, in essence, science in science class, gay marriage, stem cell research, women's reproductive rights, "blue" laws, etc.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, I realize that this is very difficult for you to grasp, but there is more evidence that homosexuality is innate than there is proof for the existence of any god. Therefore, when christians try to use their particular mythology to deny homosexuals their equal rights as Americans, or indeed as human beings, it is oppression.

      Get it?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Colin
      You missed some of the biggest
      The lie in god we trust on our money
      the changing of the pledge of allegience that refernces a god
      the laws still on the books in several states preventing an atheist from holding office
      the law in Arkansas that prevents an atheist from testifying in court.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Random Seed

      Colin, please provide links to the inside of your head so we can verify what you wrote. Thanks in advance. 😀

      May 13, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • JMEF

      Topher
      Funny that you would accuse me of setting up a rabbit trail on the subject of the Noah's Ark fable and come on here and ask a question of no relevance. If you are saying that Christians have never oppressed other groups you have zero knowledge of history or can reject all that disagrees with your bible. Don't forget to feed your pet dinosaur.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Colin

      Indeed RC, although I couldn't see the last two surviving a court challange.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Science

      RC.........the biggest lie almost............the money issue..........and the fairy in the sky did not create US

      Peace

      May 13, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Colin
      They were actually struck down in 1961 as unconst!tutional, but those are the ones still showing on the books, evidence of what was, and shows the fact that the christians do not seem to think they are forcing their religion on others.
      Before 1961, there were many, MANY others.

      Now if we could get our pledge back to all of the people, not just the ones that think there are gods, and remove the lie "in god we trust" from our money...then we will have put things back the way they were before they forced theor religion on all of us.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Yep

      Confronted with the truth, brave Sir Topher ran away.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • Typical Christian

      Luckily the bible says it is ok for me to kill gay people, if it didn't I would feel oppressed.

      May 14, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
  4. DR75

    I find it amusing that the great majority of the people who are posting on the Belief Blog are people who not only don't believe, but literally hate those who do believe. Even if I weren't a Christian, if I posted that I hate all gay people, or blacks, or hispanic, 90% of you would be up at arms calling me a bigot, or hate monger. However, let me post that I hate all Christians and most of you would cheer me on and more than likely agree with me. I say I disagree with the gay lifestyle because it goes agaisnt what they bible teaches and you call my hate monger or worse. Simpley because I stated an opinion. Never said I hate gay people, just that I dont' agree with the lifestyle and because of that I'm spewing hate. You, on the other hand, call my God immoral, and vehemently deny his existence because you can't see him. Some of you have even said you would be happy if all Christians just died or fell of the face of the planet. I don't understand why I am a hate monger for standing up for my beliefs but you are NOT for standing up for your non belief. If I express my opinion I'm wrong, I'm a hater and people hate me for it. But if you express yours, it's ok and it's even applauded by others. How is that not hate mongering?

    May 13, 2013 at 10:38 am |
    • sam stone

      "I find it amusing that the great majority of the people who are posting on the Belief Blog are people who not only don't believe, but literally hate those who do believe."

      I find it amusing that people cannot see the difference between criticizing a belief and hating the believer

      May 13, 2013 at 10:41 am |
    • sam stone

      "However, let me post that I hate all Christians and most of you would cheer me on and more than likely agree with me."

      Can you point out where anyone said they hate all Christians?

      "I say I disagree with the gay lifestyle because it goes agaisnt what they bible teaches and you call my hate monger or worse."

      You are free to disagree with a person's "lifestyle" based on the bible.

      We are free to tell you that we believe that the edited, translated iron age hearsay that you attribute to god seems rather outdated in the 21st century

      We get annoyed when Christians try to deny others civil rights based on THEIR reading of the bible

      May 13, 2013 at 10:46 am |
    • tallulah13

      Actually, you've confused disagreement with "hate". Most atheists really don't care what you believe, as long as you don't try to force it on others.

      And the reason we ask for proof of your god is because some christians are actively trying to keep a certain minority from receiving equal rights. It's rather silly to base discrimination on a fantasy, even a well-established one, don't you think? And if you look at all the hate proscribed in the bible - against gay people, "witches", disabled people, non-believers - then, yeah, it falls short of what most reasonable people would call moral.

      So please, stop trying to play the martyr. It's rather silly and completely unfounded.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • Observer

      DR75,

      "I say I disagree with the gay lifestyle because it goes agaisnt what they bible teaches"

      You don't believe everything in the Bible so why pick and choose and use the Bible as an excuse?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • ME II

      @Sam stone,
      +1

      @DR75,
      For a group that professes things like "Love the sinner, hate the sin", this would seem obvious.
      "Love the believer, hate the belief."

      "You, on the other hand, call my God immoral, and vehemently deny his existence because you can't see him."

      How is this hate?

      "Some of you have even said you would be happy if all Christians just died or fell of the face of the planet. "

      I agree that this is hateful and all should strive to get beyond this. And by all, I include Christians how are happy to announce that we are all going to be tortured for eternity for our supposed "sins". "Every knee shall bow", etc.

      "I don't understand why I am a hate monger for standing up for my beliefs but you are NOT for standing up for your non belief."

      If your beliefs include hateful opinions or behavior towards other, is it any surprise? Just because it is your belief, does not make the behavior okay. For example, honor killings are a belief of some groups.

      "If I express my opinion I'm wrong, I'm a hater and people hate me for it."

      Disagreement is not hate. I'd have to know the specifics though.

      "But if you express yours, it's ok and it's even applauded by others. How is that not hate mongering?"

      Expressing opinions is not inherently bad, but the opinion express may very well be. Again, I'd have to know the specifics.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • Madtown

      I say I disagree with the gay lifestyle because it goes agaisnt what they bible teaches
      -----
      Is it "hate" to go against the slave-owning lifestyle?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • lol??

      You have to understand that A&A's are EASILY amused.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • tallulah13

      Ah, I hate it when I use the wrong word. I didn't mean proscribed. I meant demanded. Stupid head cold.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      we live in the USA where we are oppressed by much of the populous using the Bible and Christianity as the tool of oppression. Any wonder we comment the way we do?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:57 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      It is unconst!tutional to legislate from your bible. Quit it.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • ME II

      @tallulah13,
      "Ah, I hate it when I use the wrong word"

      Hater!!

      jk

      May 13, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • tallulah13

      MEII: Haters gotta hate. 🙂

      May 13, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • WhenCowsAttack

      DR75-

      I don't hate you, I just disagree with your lifestyle. I find Christian "values" go against society's morals. Being Christian is a choice.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • LinCA

      @DR75

      You said, "I find it amusing that the great majority of the people who are posting on the Belief Blog are people who not only don't believe, but literally hate those who do believe."
      I find it amusing that there are adults who proudly proclaim to still believe in the Tooth Fairy, or some other imaginary creature. That I find it amusing doesn't mean I hate them.

      You said, "Even if I weren't a Christian, if I posted that I hate all gay people, or blacks, or hispanic, 90% of you would be up at arms calling me a bigot, or hate monger."
      You can be a bigot without being a christian. Being a christian just makes it easier. Claiming to be a christian gives you the protection of the first amendment to proclaim your fairy tale justifies your bigotry.

      You said, "However, let me post that I hate all Christians and most of you would cheer me on and more than likely agree with me."
      No. Hate is an emotion that gets in the way of a rational discourse.

      You said, "I say I disagree with the gay lifestyle because it goes agaisnt what they bible teaches and you call my hate monger or worse."
      Calling it a lifestyle shows the depth of your ignorance. Being a christian is far more of a lifestyle than being gay ever will be. You choose to remain blissfully ignorant and willfully accept the indoctrination of your cult. Being a christian is a choice, being gay isn't.

      If you feel that your fairy tale prohibits homosexuality, then you are free to not engage in it, but it has no jurisdiction over anyone who doesn't believe that nonsense. You are free to live your life according to that bullshit, you are not free to expect anyone else to do so too.

      You said, "Simpley because I stated an opinion."
      Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one, and you are free to have yours.

      You said, "Never said I hate gay people, just that I dont' agree with the lifestyle and because of that I'm spewing hate."
      You are entitled to your opinion. You are free not to partake in the "lifestyle" that you don't agree with. It is when you try to restrict others from having equal rights based on your fairy tale, is when you cross the line. It is then when you are spewing. If it's not hate that you are spewing, it certainly is ignorance.

      You said, "You, on the other hand, call my God immoral, and vehemently deny his existence because you can't see him."
      I don't know your god. There isn't a shred of evidence that sets it apart from the Easter Bunny. It is just as likely to be real as the Tooth Fairy. Odds are, it only exists in your mind. How "moral" or immoral" you make your god is entirely your doing.

      You said, "Some of you have even said you would be happy if all Christians just died or fell of the face of the planet."
      I'd like them to evaluate the core beliefs of their religion.

      You said, "I don't understand why I am a hate monger for standing up for my beliefs but you are NOT for standing up for your non belief."
      There is no rational reason to disagree with what you call a lifestyle. Your opposition to equality may not stem from your hate, but it most likely stems from the hate taught by someone you accept as an authority.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:07 am |
    • JMEF

      DR75
      Interesting that you could manage to use the word hate 10 times in one post. I think you doth protest too much. Throwing that word around as you do says more about you than the critics of all religions.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • lol??

      The mentality of the A&A's is EASILY observed by visiting any county park where the Qweirdos hang out. Joe citizen brings his family to see nature and Billy jr has to go, he says. So what happens?? Billy sees the gay graffiti in the restroom and needs a teaching moment from dad about wickedness.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:25 am |
  5. Vic

    This Mortal Flesh

    Abraham, the father of Faith and many nations, and the friend of God, was a liar!
    Moses, the father of Judaism, was a killer!
    David, king of Israel, was a murderer and adulterer!
    And the list go on and on..

    Why then did God reveal His messages through them?! The answer is SIMPLE!

    God imputes righteousness to people on the basis of Faith and NOT on the basis of works, since the beginning of time!

    This mortal flesh is corrupt due to the original sin, and it can never be clean, until the end of times!

    A Sinless Human is an Oxymoron; a Paradox!

    A lot of people who venture into the Bible, Christians & non-Christians, DO NOT UNDERSTAND the above fact, the Dispensation of Times and God's Ultimate Divine Intervention to SAVE this world!

    A lot of Christians turn into Pharisees (the originals of whom condemn and sentenced Jesus to death!,) whether in good faith or not!

    Therefore, it imperative for whoever hears the Good News of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to discern this truth:

    THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION

    John 3:16,17
    "16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

    Romans 6:23
    "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    [Scripture is from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)]
    http://www.biblegateway.com

    Reference:

    https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/comment-page-5/#comment-2337710

    May 13, 2013 at 10:33 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      What evidence do you have that your bible contains truth?...hint, the bible cannot be used to verify the bible.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:37 am |
    • Hartford

      Vic, Well researched , well written and cohesive in form and content. Well done!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:39 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      thank you for your book report, but what makes you think that has any relevance to the real world? It's not like any of your book's characters actually ever existed.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • Observer

      Vic,

      "God's Ultimate Divine Intervention to SAVE this world!"

      God could save the world by taking TWO SECONDS to announce worldwide "This is God. Follow my Bible".

      May 13, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      @Observer: well said!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • Madtown

      whoever hears the Good News of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to discern this truth: THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION
      ----------
      What about humans who have not heard the good news of Jesus, do they get the free gift? Or, are we just the lucky ones, more loved by God than other groups of our human equals?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • Vic

      @Observer

      God tests man by Faith! He reveals Himself to man through His Creation and Revealed Messages in order for man to BELIEVE.

      What good is Faith if God were to show Himself?! That is an Oxymoron! That is like a teacher giving his students the answers to the questions along with the test!

      @Madtown
      We don't know everything about God's Divine Justice and how it works, and I am sure He is Just!

      May 13, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • ME II

      For many people, faith is earned. Should I expect less from your God?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • In Santa we trust

      Vic, Why are you sure it is just? Do you think it just that thousands of children die daily from starvation? Do you think it just that thousands of children die daily from preventable disease?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • Observer

      Vic,

      "What good is Faith if God were to show Himself?"

      To start off with, it would supposedly save BILLIONS and billions of people, not that God would care.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • tallulah13

      God likes to test men without actually showing up to class to teach them. The class is taught by grad students who just read their notes about what they think God is thinking (because he never showed up to their class either). A lot of people just take the class because it's an easy A.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Madtown

      We don't know everything about God's Divine Justice and how it works, and I am sure He is Just!
      -----–
      Actually, we really don't know anything about how God operates. Religions are man's attempt to create structure around a set of ideas of how we THINK God operates. We don't know. If God is just, and the christian way is the "only" way, then it would have to be available to every human on earth, without them having to go to extraordinary lengths to learn of it. Otherwise, God creates entire cultures with no hope of salvation, which isn't the least bit just.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:36 am |
  6. Dyslexic doG

    a couple of questions that Christians may be able to help me with:
    1. how do you know which passages of the Bible need to be obeyed and which can be ignored?
    2. what is the % of the Bible that must be obeyed and what % can be ignored?

    I would appreciate your candor. And once again I would comment that a retreat into mysticism is the first refuge of the cornered fool. And please try to offer something other than a Bible verse.

    Because it has to be all or nothing doesn't it? Either obey every line of the bible as God's word, or else admit that some lines can be ignored, and then the entire book is of dubious value.

    May 13, 2013 at 10:32 am |
  7. faith

    to be honest, i'm a little concerned that our nazi god-hating fascists are getting a little soft on their fiercest enemy. christians r 2 blame 4 everything and don't u 4get it.

    May 13, 2013 at 10:00 am |
    • midwest rail

      " to be honest,...."
      Honesty is the rarest trait among any of your posts I've seen.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:06 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Faith claims to be honest and then refers to nazi god hating fascists...as if faith knows any.

      honesty fail.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:34 am |
    • Observer

      If faith had honesty she'd admit that only believers can hate God. Apparently, that would require too much honesty.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • tallulah13

      Hey faith, why aren't you using your "biggles" screen name anymore?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:03 am |
  8. Thoth

    This, IMO is the problem with raising kids on religious dogma. They actually believe things to be truth which are merely conjecture from a very different period in human history.

    May 13, 2013 at 9:07 am |
    • faith

      amen

      May 13, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      amen!!!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:33 am |
  9. Science

    Are you sure ..............you ahappyfarmer ?

    May 13, 2013 at 8:59 am |
    • Science

      Oops for below.............that damn thumb.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:01 am |
  10. Ahappyfarmer

    I feel sorry that messages like this get out and it confuses Christians who don't have a good grasp on what it means to be Christian. I take this article as this. Don't believe what he is saying.

    May 13, 2013 at 8:32 am |
    • midwest rail

      What specifically in the article should be disregarded ?

      May 13, 2013 at 8:53 am |
    • mama k

      "what it means to be Christian"

      Which of the the over 40,000 sects, if any, is your affiliation when you make the statement above?

      May 13, 2013 at 8:59 am |
    • faith

      thought u'd never ask. 2day i'm announcing a new sect. number 40,001. it is called there is no proof fsm, santa, skydaddy and the tooth fairy ever lived. ergo, jesus is the big cheese, can u dig?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:04 am |
    • tallulah13

      Oh, goody. Another "true believer" who thinks that their interpretation (or the interpretation they were taught) is the only true christianity. That's rare. Like dandelions are rare.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:08 am |
  11. Science

    That red devil with the funky horns...........and his partner the fairy.........did NOT create US !

    The ORIGIN story is bullsh-it...............so is the bible............... nasty !

    From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2aOriginoflife.shtml

    Scientists have unearthed the first direct signs of cheesemaking, at a site in Poland that dates back 7,500 years.

    Human Evolution

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2cHumanevo.shtml

    May 13, 2013 at 5:40 am |
  12. Monika Evers

    Last week a friend of mine had to conduct her husband's funeral service at the church where he had been an elder for many years. I was confused like many who had travelled from far and wide to find no clergy presiding over this event. You see....their family had a 17 year old Christ-loving gay daughter who recently got thrown out of this church for bringing her girlfriend to Sunday service.

    I looked on as this brave women had friends come up a speak about her husband. An elder even stepped up but instead of honouring her husband we received a pitch on becoming a Christian...again I sat confused.

    Love one another, you will know us by how we behave with each other and those outside our faith.

    Afterwards I hugged the woman and ALL her kids and I affirmed I would see them at Christmas. (The kids had been wondering now that their father had died whether they would be welcomed to our Christmas event as they had been in the past. (sigh))

    My...our job is to love one another...and to trust that the The Holy Spirit will convict each person of this body of believers individually, in order to become His unblemished bride...in His way, in His timing. Our job is also to open our ears in order to hear from Him and then obey Him.

    My heart was heavy for more than one reason om that day.

    May 13, 2013 at 12:32 am |
    • Hmmmmm

      And you remain Christian after seeing this Christian atrocity, knowing full well it is being repeated all over the country?

      May 13, 2013 at 2:50 am |
    • Roger that

      Unfortunately for many, it takes a close family member coming out as gay before they realize how cruel and discriminating the Bible and members of faith can be. The Bible was written a long time ago in a primitive world, and is long passed its shelf life.

      May 13, 2013 at 6:53 am |
    • HotAirAce

      In the USA, about 3,700 abortions are performed per day, about 70% of which are had by members of the dead jew zombie death cult aka christians. Why don't we hear of about 10,000 believers being thrown out of churches each week because they've had an abortion?

      May 13, 2013 at 7:44 am |
    • DR75

      Believe it or not, there are Christians in this world that do not represent the whole. Just like there are people in this world that commit atrocities that do not represent the whole of their people. Islamic extremists do not represent the whole of Islam. The two Boston bombers do not represent the whole of Chechnya. We consider it a crime when people are discriminated agaisnt, but when it comes to Christians it's ok because they're a "cult" or whatever. Jesus taught us to "take the plank out of our own eye before dealing the the speck in my brother's." In other words, deal with your own sin first before to convict someone of there's. He even called us hyporcrites for doing so. Hypobrites exist in every religion, creed, race, gender, every country, state, city... you will never escape the hypocrites. My point is the actions of a few do not represent the whole. This is why Monika did not leave Christianity. Because she puts Christ above all else.

      May 13, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • lol??

      HotAirAce sayz,
      "In the USA, about 3,700 abortions are performed per day, about 70% of which are had by members of the dead jew zombie death cult aka christians......................................"

      Source, DORK??

      May 13, 2013 at 10:13 am |
    • midwest rail

      You've been given a source for the numbers repeatedly – but you, of course, disregard the link. Your dishonesty truly knows no bounds.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:16 am |
    • lol??

      Midwest Wail, yo wheels are off the track.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:25 am |
    • midwest rail

      Bullsh!t, and you know it. You dislike the source, so you disregard it. And it's a bit odd seeing YOU ask for a source, when you've been called on your made-up stories repeatedly, for which you NEVER have a link. You simply retreat into more lol?? babble which carries little weight, and less meaning. I got your link right here, you disingenuous twit.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:29 am |
    • lol??

      Source, Wail.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:36 am |
    • midwest rail

      See previous reply – you simply dislike the fact that you've been exposed, repeatedly, as a liar.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:41 am |
    • tallulah13

      Lolly is a troll, and a poor quality troll at that. We all know this.

      May 13, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • lol??

      Wail, quit wailing and give a SOURCE if you agree, ya little XX.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Guttmacher (sp?) Inst!tute. Used by both pro- and anti-abortion groups, but do go ahead and challenge them. And lol?? you seem a little sensitive about this topic – what's your problem?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Anyone else wonder why the azz known as lol?? has gone silent?

      May 13, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
  13. Observer

    Gay Christian is the same level of oxymoron as divorced-and-remarried Christian or tattooed Christian.

    May 12, 2013 at 11:57 pm |
    • The Embarassing Olympic Pole-Vault Efforts of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      Jesus says nothing about gays, but he goes apoplectic over divorce. Funny how Christians are dead silent about it as they get in line for their divorces.

      But then again, you can do anything as long as you play that get-out-of-hell-free card and repent right afterwards. It worked for the Son of Sam and the Mansong Girls, and it can work for you too!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • His panic

      As godly atheist, straight ho-mo or living dead!

      May 13, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • atomD21

      It is becoming disturbingly more common for compassionate Christian to be an oxymoron. Nowhere in the Bible were we given the authority or responsiblity to go on this holier than thou culture war we have so involved ourselves with in this country. In the 60's, it was civil rights and interracial marriage that the church was convinced would destroy the moral fabric of society. In the 70's, it was the hippie scourge and free love that would bring about the end of days. The 80's were just a mistake of a decade that brought about the moral majority and the strong political push in churches. the 90's and into now have had the church up in arms about abortion and the evil g@y agenda and how it is ruining morality and civilization. All the while, the world has been getting more and more divided and broken. It is truly a shame that a faith, supposedly based on the teachings of Christ who by example and parable taught us to love first and care for those who need it, would so readily turn a blind eye to the suffering all around it to instead defend people from whatever alleged "sin" the talking heads have deemed to be the flavor of the month.

      May 13, 2013 at 3:13 am |
    • Oxyclean™, Now 23% Better!!

      "Gay" is a word, in this case, describing the sxual orientation of the object, "Christian", which, in this case, is a word describing the type of religious cult this guy identifies with or the cult-oriented schizophrenic biases that probably dominate his thinking processes.
      They are not mutually exclusive, because delusional thinking and other forms of mental illness can strike anyone at any time, and anyone can be indoctrinated or brainwashed regardless of their sxual orientation.
      So it is not an oxymoron in the literal sense.
      Sxual orientation does not create mental illness nor prevent mental illness.
      Religion is mental illness.
      Neither does mental illness / religion cause sxual orientation.
      The two words describe different things and so are not contradictory in definition or scope.
      No oxymoron here.

      Just a mentally ill person who suffers from severe masochistic disorder who insists on remaining a member of an S/M cult at risk of his life. Probably suicidal, but real masochists want to suffer forever and not die. Religious beliefs are insane by definition. This guy is insane. Who cares about his sxual orientation just as long as it's done with other consenting adults?

      But can you trust insane people to follow any rules? Not if their mental illness is indicative of that sort of thing.

      Trust no religious zealot anytime anywhere.
      Neither Jew nor Christian nor Muslim nor Buddhist nor Hindu nor Sikh nor any of them.... at any time.
      Do the best you can, but realize they have lots of weapons and resources and are criminally insane.

      Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back!!

      May 13, 2013 at 7:03 am |
    • lol??

      Observer.
      Marriage is controlled, defined, regulated, taxed, studied, manipulated, hated, despised, codified, and totally under the power of your usurper god, the Diverse Beast. What better way to mess with the Master than to corrupt his help mete?? Yo bwain is showing stwain. PUblic Servants RULE!!

      May 13, 2013 at 10:23 am |
  14. lol??

    So the international, world wide, kingdoms and gubmints HATE the Creator of all things?? SAY it isn't so!!

    "Psa 2:1-2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], "

    May 12, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It isn't so.

      If you know the Creator of All Things please ask it to show itself. Also, it has some explaining to do.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • Paris Hilton Beyond Thunderdome

      It's impossible to hate what you don't believe in. Try hating Quetzlcoatl.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • Skiffle

      That's Harvey the Rabbit, HinduMolester. He is often mistaken for Jesus, but that's what happens when you are invisible and can only be imagined.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:49 pm |
    • faith

      "Tom, Tom, the Other One
      It isn't so.
      If you know the Creator of All Things please ask it to show itself. Also, it has some explaining to do."

      LORD, reveal yourself to everybody but tom the moron. thank you, amen

      May 13, 2013 at 10:09 am |
    • lol??

      Why do the heathen rage?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:34 am |
  15. faith

    god is closer to ho mos exuals than to most religious phonies or the "fir e ins urance" type of christian. g ays are already so brok en out of sh ame and guilt, they have a special place in his heart. they are perfect candidates to receive and to enjoy his love. to know intim ately the love of the god man. no one else loves as he loves. no one can satisfy the longing for real love like he can.

    May 12, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • faith

      our mis sion, task, function, job–whatever, is not to try to change whom and what they love or desire. the christian's sole and most important task or function or role-whatever word fits best- is to love them and everyone as he loves.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      You really need to get out more. Meet some gay people who are quite happy and centered as they are.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The only openly gay person I have encountered who is unhappy with their his or her life is Douglas, right on this blog. And I'm pretty sure Dougy is just a troll, just like faith.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Akira

      I've never seen a person more uncomfortable in hizzer own skin than Douglas.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • faith

      and that makes no difference. with all they have had to endure, whether they are well-adjusted or not, many hom o se x uals know what it means to suffer, to be lonely, to feel rejected, out of place, like they didn't fit in-and if not, that is great.

      but for those who know what its like to be an outcast, she, you, have a special place in the heart of the son of man. he came for the unpopular, for the odd ball, the one who can't measure up. the chronic failure and underachiever. his heart longs for the friendless, the unconfident, the social butterflies. for he was rejected and he identifies with the lonely and the broken hearted. a man of sorrows. no matter who you are or have been. all human beings cry out for love. there is a god-shaped vacuum within us and nothing and no one can fill it except him. and when he does, the sense of companionship and the realization that we are loved for who we are is the most extraordinary and wonderful thing many have ever known. it is like being in a dream, but you are awake.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:24 am |
    • tallulah13

      You know why some homosexuals suffer? Because "good" christians make it their mission to make their lives hell.

      But generally, the openly gay people I've had the pleasure of being friends with are happy and content with who they are.

      May 13, 2013 at 1:17 am |
    • faith

      "tallulah13
      You know why some hom ose xuals suffer? Because "go od" chr istians make it their mis sion to make their lives he ll.
      But generally, the openly g ay people I've had the pleasure of being friends with are happy and content with who they are."

      lol

      May 13, 2013 at 9:56 am |
    • tallulah13

      Poor Lolly. Why post when you have nothing to say? Do you troll for attention just to remind yourself that you are alive?

      Have you ever considered that the reason that you don't have any friends is because you are an annoying tool?

      May 13, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • faith

      "Tom, Tom, the Other One
      You really need to get out more. Meet some gay people who are quite happy and centered as they are."

      lol

      May 14, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
  16. Reality

    From the topic:

    "I'm still an evangelical Christian, but one thing is now crystal clear to me. American evangelicals' bad reputation isn't just because of what we believe. It's mostly because of how we behave."

    Actually, it is about 50/50:

    Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

    Current problems:
    Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    May 12, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • faith

      as an insider, i have to agree. every strong christian leader from the last 3 centuries has manifest all the dsm-v criteria for every mental illness recognized. sad but true. however, none is 1/1,000,000th as ill as dodo.

      May 14, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
  17. Vic

    CHRISTIANITY

    Adam brought sin into the world. With sin came death and separation from God. Jesus Christ took away the sin of the world and brought us eternal life and reconciliation with God the Father.

    Romans 5:12-21
    "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    Jesus Christ spoke of that the Law would be binding until it is accomplished. That's why he accomplished it for us for no human can accomplish it!

    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf, died on the Holy Cross for the Remission of our sins (became sin and curse for us,) descended to hell and defeated death (keys of which were held by Satan,) rose from the dead on the third day bringing us eternal life and reconciliation with God the Father, and then ascended to Heaven promising us the Holy Spirit and preparing the place for us. Since that, we are in the Dispensation of Grace.

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Fulfillment of the Law

    Matthew 5:17,18
    “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

    John 17:4
    "4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do."

    Hebrews 9:25,26
    "25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

    Becoming Sin

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    "21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

    Becoming Curse

    Galatians 3:13
    "13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—"

    Dying on the Cross & Deafeating Death

    John 19:30
    "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

    Romans 6:9
    "9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

    2 Timothy 1:10
    "10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

    Hebrews 2:14,15
    "14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives."

    Revelation 1:18
    "18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

    Rising on the Third Day

    Matthew 12:40
    "40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    1 Corinthians 15:4
    "4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

    Reconciliation

    Romans 5:10,11
    "10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

    2 Corinthians 5:18
    "18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,"

    Ascension into Heaven, Promise of the Holy Spirit & Preparing the Place for us

    Luke 24:50,51
    "50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven."

    John 14:3
    "3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

    John 14:16-18
    "16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
    18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also."

    John 14:26
    "26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

    Acts 1:9
    "9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight."

    His work was Done!

    When someone finishes his/her work they sit down. After the Lord Jesus Christ finished His work, He sat down at the right hand of God the Father!

    John 17:4
    "4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do."

    John 19:30
    "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

    Mark 16:19
    "So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

    Hebrews 1:1-3
    "1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"

    Justification & Salvation

    John 1:16,17
    "16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

    John 3:16,17
    "16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

    John 12:47
    "47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

    Romans 3:28
    "28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

    Romans 5:6
    "6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

    Romans 6:23
    "23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    Romans 8:1,2
    "8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

    Romans 10:4
    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Galatians 2:16
    "16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

    Galatians 4:4,5
    "4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

    Ephesians 1:7
    "7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"

    Ephesians 2:8,9
    "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    Hebrews 10:10
    "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

    Acts 13:39
    "39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses."

    [All above Scripture is from the New American Standard Bible (NASB)]
    http://www.biblegateway.com

    May 12, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
    • The Ineffective Revenge of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      Quoting a bunch of biblical quotes to people who think the Bible is gibberish – yeah, that will work.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
    • Paris Hilton Beyond Thunderdome

      Well at least VicAustin isn't telling us about his squishkitty demon dreams.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      All above Scripture is from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) and is not supported by any verifiable, objective, factual or independent evidence, nor is any other version of The Babble.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It all seems so unnecessary, Vic. Have you ever wondered if God actually likes us. I don't mean love as in "God so loved the world..." Does God actually like people? Could God actually be like one of us? Drive around in an old Delta 88 with a couple of friends, some nice girls from the neighborhood, a few J's and a bit of Meyer's Dark with Coke in the little bottles (Mexican is best, they use real cane sugar).

      May 12, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
    • Athy

      Please, oh please, if there really is a god deliver us from the damn bible quoters.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Vic

      This post is for Christians & non-Christians!

      May 12, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
    • Akira

      Christians and non-Christians? You mean, as in everyone?

      May 12, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • tallulah13

      For some people, the only way they can feel important is to quote something they consider a higher authority. It's rather sad, but I guess if you are unable to conjure up anything compelling of your own to say, it's a viable option. Pointless, but viable.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • Athy

      I have no intention of reading that bullshit.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Vic

      Yes, Akira, it is for everyone.

      It is phrased like that for a good reason! I'll leave it at that.

      May 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • tallulah13

      And the reason that Vic phrased it that way? To make himself sound important!

      May 12, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • Science

      And it is all BS Vic.

      May 13, 2013 at 5:36 am |
    • Science

      Foot note............ethics + morals = really tough on religion and the bible VIC

      May 13, 2013 at 6:45 am |
    • sam stone

      "Adam brought sin into the world"

      "Sin" is a man made concept, designed to control the gullible

      May 13, 2013 at 7:41 am |
    • sam stone

      biblical quotes resonate only with those people who accept the supposed authority of the bible

      May 13, 2013 at 7:44 am |
    • Science

      Remember Vic............the old pope kicked the angels with PITCH FORKS out of the cult last xams.

      Was the red devil pi-ssed off Vic .....do you know ?

      May 13, 2013 at 10:07 am |
  18. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Just as some people are gay, some people seem to be wired to believe. It's not too surprising that these traits occur together occasionally. It is sad, though. Believers live a sort of lie, failing to acknowledge, even to themselves, that they are just different from other people. Perhaps gay believers can help the rest understand that belief is not a choice and that a properly diverse society includes all sorts. Hug a believer and let her or him know that we can all be friends.

    May 12, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
    • Saraswati

      That really is one thing I think the happy and contented non-believer has to recognize: for some people there may be no way to be happy without religious belief. To take that away from them is just like some fundamentalist Christian efforts to take marriage away from gay couples. But just because some poeple need religion, doesn't mean they need a dangerous and hurtful form of religion. And that's where there's room to improve things.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      You may want to examine the connection you make that belief results in happiness or at least the expectation of happiness. Most Christians do not operate under that illusion.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • ME II

      @Bill Deacon,
      They didn't seem to be making that connection to me. I thought they were just saying that for some, religion is necessary for happiness, not that it is sufficient.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:13 am |
  19. UD

    Loree never quite made it to the dining room. When Alfonzo found his boyfriend’s scarf, the drinks flowed and the blood spilled. Repurposing the doors as wall art saved some cash though so we made bail.

    May 12, 2013 at 10:21 pm |
    • The Ineffective Revenge of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      I see Lyingly Lame has some real competetion in the "Crappiest Writer" category.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • UD

      @The Ineffective Revenge of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      You called me a "writer" !!

      May 12, 2013 at 10:28 pm |
    • The Ineffective Revenge of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly a shot rang out.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
    • jc (just curious)

      When do shots not ring out "suddenly"?

      Slowly, a shot rang out
      Softly, a shot rang out

      May 13, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • tallulah13

      The shot rang out in a casual manner so as not to disturb anyone.

      May 13, 2013 at 11:16 am |
    • They Seek

      Like mad ferrets they scrambled over bushes, under fallen logs, around every obstacle, clawing their way towards him, their eyes glowing orange with rage in the dying light.
      Ice water seemed to flush through his bowels as the fear rose up within him. His limbs began to shake and he felt weak.
      He tried flinging sticks and stones at them, but their eyes just glowed brighter. Nothing he did made any difference.
      They were too strong, too filled with rage.
      The blood spattered everywhere, his screams echoing in the desolate forest. They ignored his cries as they began to feed, ripping out his guts from between his ragged hands, pulling his organs out one by one to be torn to bits and swallowed whole.
      In minutes there was nothing left but bloody smears on the grass. They moved on to the next target.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • What happens when you have a committee of writers

      It was a not-too-dark and only moderately stormy night, the kind of night where melba toast would be appropriate. Softly shot plopped out in a casual manner so as not to disturb anyone.

      May 13, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
  20. HeavenSent

    For many deceivers are entered into this world through Jesus. You can become wealthy in the feline ways of our savior. I usually can top up from the collection plate myself if I'm quick.

    Amen

    May 12, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I really don't see HS as a cat person. They're far too independent for her liking. I see her as a chihuahua hoarder. The little teacup kind. They'd quiver in fear at her every word.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • The Ineffective Revenge of Cluckles the Boneless Chicken

      I figured her for having a poodle that died years ago and was still laying there, and Miss HavershamSent thinks it is still alive, just pining for the fjords.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent's Camel-Toe Diaries

      It wasn't the first time I heard the puppy whine and felt the shaking, but only the kittens fed that night. And ol' Andy was never heard from again.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • Akira

      Miss HavershamSent....that made me do a spittake with my water...lol!

      May 12, 2013 at 10:35 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Okay, maybe she thinks that her chihuahuas are cats. Also, Miss HavershamSent? Comedy gold.

      May 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.