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 Harold Camping, now 91, is the force behind Family Radio -- and a couple failed prophecies.
May 16th, 2013
07:00 AM ET
End times for doomsday-linked radio network?By Jessica Ravitz, CNN (CNN) - Dealing with a struggling radio business – this wasn’t the way it was supposed to be. By all his calculations, Harold Camping expected to be nearly two years into his Rapture revelry, hanging in heaven with God and the select others who’d been saved. But when his predicted and vastly promoted May 21, 2011, Day of Rapture came and went, and the end of the world on October 21, 2011, didn’t pan out either, Camping lost his doomsday mojo. It didn’t help that he had another knock against him, having made a similar failed prophecy back in 1994. By March 2012, the degreed engineer who’s spent more than a half-century studying the Bible admitted mistakes. He vowed to back off from the prediction business. Now it seems Family Radio, the nonprofit Christian radio broadcasting network Camping started in 1959, may be foundering, according to an investigative story recently published in the Contra Costa Times. Financial documents show that Family Radio's assets dropped by more than $105 million in less than five years, despite an influx of $85 million in donations over that time, the California newspaper reported. This, of course, was during the big push to spread the news about the end that wasn’t. The paper also said donations have tumbled nearly 70% since May 21, 2011, spawning layoffs of longtime employees. And saddled with loans, a dwindling cash flow and alleged mismanagement, the network was reportedly forced to sell off its three biggest stations. “You eliminate those three (FM stations) and, ultimately, the rest of it dies,” former employee Matt Tuter told the Contra Costa Times. “I believe they are killing it off.” All of these financial struggles, however, come as the network grapples with losing the voice of its biggest star - Camping himself. He suffered a stroke in June 2011. And though he remains involved and still serves as the network's president, the flagship show he hosted, "Open Forum," is only running previously recorded programs. It was through Family Radio – and its multitude of U.S. stations, satellite feeds, shortwave radio use, Internet reach and translation machine – that Camping’s teachings and 2011 predictions spread across the globe. His doomsday message was bolstered by a massive billboard campaign at a reported price tag of $5 million. There were also initiatives like Project Caravan, which dispatched teams of volunteers in RVs to warn the people. CNN hopped on board one caravan and traveled with faithful ambassadors who’d given up everything for this cause. The coordinator for Project Caravan, Ted Kim, left Family Radio soon after May 21, 2011. Once his ambassadors - still around and not raptured - had a place to go, he told CNN, his work was done. Even though he doesn't work there anymore, that doesn’t mean he’s lost faith in the mission. He still believes spiritual judgment occurred in 2011 and that the world’s physical destruction is near. Photos: Doomsdays throughout time Kim, who is now home schooling his children and caring for his mother, suspects the supporters who fell away had erroneously put more stock in Camping than they’d put in the Bible or God himself. But Tuter, the former employee who served at Camping’s side for years before he was fired in 2012, suggested to the Contra Costa Times that a demise of Family Radio may be deliberate. He said Camping made it clear to him in 1996 that he wanted the network to die when he did. "He was very specific he did not want it to continue," Tuter told the newspaper. He said Camping confided in him a week before going into heart surgery: "God raised up Family Radio just as a platform for me!" Tom Evans, who has taken over the network’s day-to-day reins since Camping suffered that stroke, could not be reached by CNN for comment. But he offered the newspaper a very different perspective than Tuter's. Evans said he hopes that Family Radio can move forward, leaving this end-of-the-world banter behind it. “We want to be a comfort and reminder of God’s strength and mercy,” he said. “In the end, our founding mission is to proclaim the word of God.” That mission, coupled with the network’s recent history, may not make them boom like they once did. But to Evans and those who are keeping the faith, neither should it portend doom.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Skipping knee bloodied and throbbing and perfect. Just enough for candy, lemonheads and redhots and bubble gum.
Trophies drip bike spills over and teases the bumper then bells and smells
Coke first, the cooler
Slide it, open it slam down your change
Fill your pockets
ride and laugh with perfection
Let's see.
The Bible itself claims that no human can or will ever know the date and time of the end of the world.
So, when a man claiming to be Christian studies said Bible carefully, for years, and claims to know the exact date and time of the end of the world, other Christians believe him?
Does this make sense to ANYONE?
Christian belief doesn't have to make sense ... it's just belief ...
Wait a minute, there are plenty of absurd things they believe in: resurrection; virgin birth; Noahs Ark; walking on water (we all know only Cris Angel can do that 😉 ); Adam and Eve....this one is no different in the grand scheme of it.
the bible itself doesn't make sense. none of it, not just the end times cr@p.
Religion in general: Does this make sense to ANYONE?
Arguing about what is or isn't intended to be taken as truth from any given holy book makes as much sense as arguing about whether or not the Hulk could beat up Superman.
The Hulk beat up superman, now that is absurd.
Yeah this is due to the unfortunate fact that most people claiming to be Christians have little to no knowledge or understanding of the Bible.
Apparently we didnt study the part of the Bible that states NOONE can know the time but the Father (God). This guy put himself ahead of God. Not a good move.
For someone that spent 50 years studying the bible, he must have missed the part where it says,..
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:36
...for someone who's studied any religion for any amount of time, the fundamental problem is in not realizing that any and all religions are pure fairy tales.
He predicted the end of the world but kept his businesses running. Does that tell you anything?
perfect!
The thing about these doomsday sayers that shocks me isnt that they exist or that some people follow and invest their whole lives in to it. What shocks me is these are the same people who will poo poo mankinds contribution to global warming as a fact and consistantly vote and speak out against REAL science. Here is the take away: Mankind, NOT god is deciding judgment over ourselves with our stewardship of this planet. Mankind, NOT god is kiling innocents, raping, stealing, robbing other men to compete on an over crowded planet. When everyone not just the "learned elite" understand we have to be responsible for our actions and not just rely on god to save us or place us in heaven or hell both of which cannot even be remotely proven to exist outside of a few old books written by MEN at some undetermined later time. Then and only then can we humans insure a spiritual and cooexistant/sustainable future for our children.
I have decided to convert from atheism to Solipsism. The ceremony is going to be a blast, I will be having all my friends and family over and un-validating their existence. Then it will just be a free-for-all. I will also be getting a tattoo of my own face on my ass.
LOL
FRAUD!!
All Christians know that God destroyed the Earth last year.
Come on folks, life ended in 2012, so please, let's get over this story and continue to enjoy our time Here in Heaven.
LOL
nice!
I'm down with that. Thx, sly!
truth, pretty good, I like that except not the true followers but the claimed and there is a big difference there but only for the future to judge. have to go but will check back, j
The self-sustaining stench of universal puke.
Star stuff, cereal boxes, decay.
Weeping over dirt. Laughing at miserable animated misery turned stoic and lifeless.
Would you have this pile over for dinner? No?
How about this dissolving goo from you know who?
it is an abortion
it brought evil from the rain forest to the streets of Boston
it is an underdeveloped sobbing heap
Huh? (child's voice)
Any chance you ate some moldy rye this morning?
I see you've met my mother-in-law.
Charlatan and Parasite.
Destroyed countless lives and SEVERLY damaged a lot of mentally ill people.
I hope his waning days are spent in agony, hopefully under indictment.
just another religious rip-off artist.
amen!
what does every single doomsday prediction have in common?
they've all been WRONG.
that's it.
But one day, at least one will be right, but of course for the wrong reason.
What the old saying about a broken clock?
but being wrong sure is a high paying job!
but what will the christians do when humans have left earth? if we have colonized other planets when the earth is "destroyed", it won't quite have the same impact.
There must be some failure to communicate.
"Sorry! The word "doomsday" doesn't occur in the KJV."
Why dontcha argue about the age of the earth or how many cows can dance on a needle's point??
LOL
Your lack of Biblical literacy is alarming in a zealot
Please review the definition of Eschaton and post an apology
Jesus told his followers he would come again before they died - he didn't. he was wrong.
Jesus = FAIL
DeMouth,
I already told you about the 1,000 year rule. See any end of time there??
"eschaton – (New Testament) day at the end of time following Armageddon when God will decree the fates of all individual humans according to the good and evil of their earthly lives"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eschaton
Bootyfunk sayz,
"Jesus told his followers he would come again before they died – he didn't. he was wrong........"
I would like to see what scripture you are referring to, but nevertheless you have heard of one of the major doctrines of Christianity, the resurrection????
Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)
there ya go. Jesus was wrong.
@Dyslexic doG
You are a typical prideful atheist, unwilling to follow the Truth of Jesus. You should read His letter to us, the Holy Bible. My camel-toe skipped the reception but grabbed some cookies. Keep standing on the wrong side of the tracks and see where you spend eternity.
Amen.
terrible advice. there's no such thing as god. instead of spending energy on an invisible sky fairy that doesn't exist, spend that time actually going outside and helping your brothers and sisters.
HeavenSent is the typical arrogant Christian driven by cult mentality.
That's fake HS...it always starts with a normal comment, then a crazy one, then another normal (for HS that is, still crazy, but normal for her)...read between the lines (lies?)
Enjoy your god delusion.
Just keep it away from all the sane people please.
.
It has been proven that the Bible is 100% accurate in every way. Only the atheists on these articles would be so arrogant as to dismiss the Holy Father. My 12-year-daughter got her job back after the surgery. Follow the Truth of Jesus and be prideful no more.
Amen.
Post pics of said camel-toe.
nice try Fake HS. 😉
See?
bible accurate in every way = LOL!!!
the bible says the earth is flat. the bible has the wrong order for life appearing on the planet. the bible has talking donkeys and talking snakes. the bible has a guy living in the belly of a whale for 3 days like in Pinocchio.
the bible is a silly book of fairy tales. if you take it seriously,, you should have your head checked.
Some total idiot posted that the Bible has been proven to be 100% accurate. OMG, I laughed so hard my lunch spit out of my mouth.
Sorry, but the truth has time and time again proven the fairy tale book wrong.
That was too funny, that somebody is that deluded into their cult that they would make a statement like that.
Yawn. There is no "eternity". You are spending it in the same grave that I am. We who live in the reality based world are tired of you with your man in the clouds who watches everyone, getting tax breaks to continue to live in the fantasy world.
Phony heavensent, BAITER is, what BAITER does.
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Timothy 4:2
Amen.
people who listen to doomsday drivel are among the stupidest people in the country.
the pillars of the church are guilt, fear and ignorance.
Well, you got a load.
and a fanatical devotion to the pope...our four main weapons are.......
yes, and as usual, lol? is asking to have a load dumped on him.
amazing how if you walk around saying "the end is nigh" you are looked on as insane, but if you walk around saying that "God told you the end is nigh" people want to throw money at you and follow you to their own destruction.
What makes religious folks lose all sense of reality when the magic G word is invoked?
That's the nature of a self affirming delusion.
Explain group think and the dog pack phenomena. Demobocracy was shown way back in Sodom.
Childhood brainwashing
yeah, gotta go with religious brainwashing. hard to break the mental shackles.
You can only predict the end of the world so many times before everyone realizes you are full of it.
Not everyone...there are a lot of delusional people out there that always seem to believe these whack jobs.
How far in advance can you buy advertising space on his radio programs?...with the end of the world so close and all?
The world has ended many times. In fact, it ends approximately 250,000 times a day for select people. For other life forms the numbers are much higher overall.
AB
I would argue that there is a big difference between the world ending, and a point of view ending. Though no one would be able to experience this difference.
@Huebert
It impossible to validate anyone's existence anyway, so all of these questions are primitive expressions; fear of the unknown.
End of the world?? Is that what it was?? There's always the 1,000 year buffer of the millennial rule.
While it may be impossible to experimentally validate, existence is the most logical and useful as.sumption. And this is not an expression of fear, it is me playing a game.
Let's talk about Horus from Egypt in 3000 BC (Jesus is a copy of Horus), or Attis from Greece in 1500 BC (Jesus is a copy of Attis), or Mithra from Persia in 1200BC (Jesus is a copy of Mithra), or Krishna from India in 900BC (Jesus is a copy of Krishna), or Dionysus from Greece in 500 BC (Jesus is a copy of Dionysus) .... or any of the DOZENS of other gods predating the bronze age book character Jesus who were born of a virgin on Dec 25, traveled as a teacher, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, was killed and lay dead for 3 days and was resurrected.
You Christians are not even original! What a joke!
You, sir, are a coward. The thing about athiests is that they love to spout their "clever" little sayings about how christians are crazy, stupid, ignorant, & dumb believers of a fantasy book character. You laugh at them & wish them harm & laugh harder when you see them fall & lose money. You are a coward because you will never say any of this to a muslim. You will show them respect & never post any negative comments or laugh at them because you know it may end with you having your head cut off. A christian won't hurt you & will still help you whenever you need it in any way they can. I am a christian, but I know I am not perfect. I am sick of little miserable cowardly people like you bullyinh christians for your entertainment. I won't be your target. If you ever say it to my face I will punch you out. At least. I will take my chances with God on this. One more thing you little pathetic wretch: Whats even crazier is a self afffirming athiest who can muster the strength & ignorance to believe that in this universe he is at the top of the food chain.
Muslims are just as dumb as Christians are. However, at the moment it is Christians that are ruining the country. When the US is more than 70% Muslims I will worry about them.
underdog, Most posters here and most articles relate to christianity so most of the discussion is about christianity. Your paranoia is unfounded, atheists see no evidence for any god. Glad to see the old christian adage of "turn the other cheek" is alive and well!
Yeah...I think UnderGod got his panties in a bit of a bunch.
What's stopping you "Dd"? You can win! or can you?
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/
Take the Zeitgeist Challenge $1000
All you have to do is take the various claims (that I will list below) concerning the similarities of Christ and other ancient gods that Zeitgeist makes, match them up to the text where it is claimed, and provide the specific quote and/or a link to the source, for example:
– List here the claim made by Zeitgeist:
– Here you might put the title of the text or glyph that is mentioned (for example: “Book of the Dead”, and the
chapter and verse if applicable.
– Here quote what is literally said in the source or why it is implied.
– Here you would provide a link to it on the web, if applicable.
Repeat this process for ALL the claims made by Zeitgeist and you WIN!!
Here is a link to a good website where you can find copies of many of the ancient texts where some of these claims would be found. Sacred Texts You could, of course, also use texts any other place you find them, as long as they can be verified.
There is only one reasonable ground rule:
Obviously, you would want to make sure the texts you quote from are valid, in that they are reasonably demonstrable to have been written before the time of Christ, only because the attempt by Zeitgeist is to show that the biblical story was “borrowed” from earlier myths.
The makers of Zeitgeist offer a list of sources for the claims they make, but they fail to list original texts, besides the Bible, in defense of them. So, it probably wont help you much, but it is available here. As you can see, Zeitgeist chooses, instead, to quote modern writers, of which the primary one seems to be Gerald Massey and Acharya S.
The following are the claims of Zeitgeist word for word:
HORUS:
Horus was born on December 25th
Born of the virgin
His birth was accompanied by a star in the east
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior
At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher
And at the age of 30, he was baptized and thus began his ministry
Horus had 12 disciples
Performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God’s Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, After being betrayed by Typhon,
Horus was crucified,
Buried for 3 days and
Thus, resurrected.
ATTIS:
Born of the virgin
On December 25th,
Crucified,
Placed in a tomb
And after 3 days, was resurrected.
KRISHNA:
Born of the virgin
With a star in the east signaling his coming
Performed miracles with his disciples
And upon his death was resurrected.
DIONYSUS
born of a virgin on December 25th
was a traveling teacher
who performed miracles such as turning water into wine
he was referred to as the “King of Kings,” “God’s Only Begotten Son,” “The Alpha and Omega,” and many others
and upon his death, he was resurrected.
MITHRA:
Born of a virgin
On December 25th
He had 12 disciples
And performed miracles
And upon his death was buried for 3 days
And thus resurrected
He was also referred to as “The Truth,” “The Light”
Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.
Jesus Christ:
Born on December 25th
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior
Let me be very clear, Im not looking for what people SAY it says in the ancient literature. There is an abundance of that available. I want to know where these people are getting their information because we can find no historical record of these claims in ancient history.
Send your submissions to us via our contact form. In the unlikely event of a winner you will be paid via Paypal.
I am sorry UnderGod but it is obvious that you are a reviler, and they are specifically barred from heaven. Not my rules you understand but thought I would point that out.
"Even though he doesn't work there anymore, that doesn’t mean he’s lost faith in the mission. He still believes spiritual judgment occurred in 2011 and that the world’s physical destruction is near."
.
Batcrazy christian....like most
The underlying apostasy of the rapturists is the belief in rotating salvation and the circu*mcised are God's chosen. The Catholic apostasy is the Church replaced Israel and the Jews got saved their way, and the Church got saved another. BTW, church should not be a proper noun.
Carnal atheists believing themselves to be collectively mini-gods. Kick your pride to the curb and accept Jesus into your heart. The litter box is full but since it is frozen the cats don't notice. It is time for you to start your walk with Jesus.
Amen.
@Heavensent: since Jesus never existed, how can you have him in your heart?
Let's talk about Horus from Egypt in 3000 BC (Jesus is a copy of Horus), or Attis from Greece in 1500 BC (Jesus is a copy of Attis), or Mithra from Persia in 1200BC (Jesus is a copy of Mithra), or Krishna from India in 900BC (Jesus is a copy of Krishna), or Dionysus from Greece in 500 BC (Jesus is a copy of Dionysus) .... or any of the DOZENS of other gods predating the bronze age book character Jesus who were born of a virgin on Dec 25, traveled as a teacher, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, was killed and lay dead for 3 days and was resurrected.
are you going to ignore all this evidence? Is your denial that powerful?
I am an ignorant troll posting lies for jeebus.
This was good. Rather long, and he is not nearly as smooth or comfortable as some of the other speakers, but he is very thorough. There are a couple of key statements that he makes that I will try later to quote that are pretty powerful – one near the end dealing with fine tuning of the universe. I'd really like to get opinions from others here from both sides of the coin on the content of his presentation. I'm tied up quite a bit today, but will check back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcHRRjsttOc
Good stuff Mama k,
My favorite line was " I don't know and nor do you"
All in all really good points about the growth of the human brain and his points on the universe.
Thank you for the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otrqzITuSqE
:52 seconds in and the false premise is laid
"The onious of proof is on the ones of the motion not on those who are skeptical"
False. The only reason you can deny unprovablable position A is a belief in unprovable believe B
Example, if you went to the Middle East and said "There can't be just one true religion" nearly everyone would say "Why Not?" The reason you doubt Christanity's Belief A is because you hold unprovable belief B. Every doubt, therefore, is based on a leap of faith.
"My thesis is that if you come to recongnize the beliefs on which your douts about Christianity are based, and if you see as much proof for those beliefs as you seek from Christians for theirs - you will discover that your doubts are not as solid as the first appeared."
Reason for God Timothy Keller
It is not reasonable to ask for more evidence for one belief over another but that is often the case
Mike from CT is not very bright it appears.
8:18– Our senses are really unreliable guides to truth
If this was the case, then we should never get in a car again for we will hit the thing that our eyes tell us is not there.
Seriously if you believe the first statement, live it out and don't trust your senses. For you couldn't even post a response. For whatever you type out and shows up on the screen may not even be what you actually typed and thus you can't properly get your point across.
How did feathers evolve? – Carl Zimmer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPLgfGX1I5Y&feature=player_embedded
Sorry one more–
Again 8:08 "What we do know about modern physics is our intuitive notion of what makes sense is very unreliable guides of truth"
IF the above statement is true, then it can not exempt itself from it's own razor so if "What we do know about modern physics is our intuitive notion of what makes sense is very unreliable guides of truth" then we can not rely on the statement "What we do know about modern physics is our intuitive notion of what makes sense is very unreliable guides of truth" being true.
@Peter, since you are brighter than I and timothy Keller, and John Lennox and CS Lewis maybe you would like to explain your beliefs to us?
"All religions have some form of moral code, ok maybe not all".... but then I am going to continue as.suming the statement I made was true any way.... nice
13:xx "Morality does just fine without it "....... Except for Communist Russia, China, Cambodia, Nazi Germany, the French Revolution.
Simple Mike, I don't believe in god because I see absolutely no evidence that there is a god, but if you or anyone else wants to provide evidence to me that proves god is real then I would change my mind. However, until such evidence presents itself I will continue to not believe in any gods. The bible is not evidence of any gods, and the fact that Timothy Keller, or John Lennox, or CS Lewis believed in god doesn't prove that god is real either.
"We only have a sample of 1 how can we call a sample of 1 [out of billions of known stars] improbable"
Because that is the definition of the word of improbable
provide evidence to me that proves god is real then I would change my mind.
Something does not come from Nothing
Design points to a designer
The books in the Bible have internal consistency, archaeological evidence, and historical manuscripts of over 5000 that agree to a infinitesimal degree. Thus making the historical testimony of Jesus who is called the Christ highly reliable.
Alvin Plantiga has about 22 more proofs of evidence. Look for the "two dozen or so theistic arguments"
Now you would have to come up with a belief to disregard the historical evidence.
You can't know if something is improbable or not if you have only studied one of the billions of stars. It may be improbable, or it may not be improbable. There is no way to know until we have studied a whole lot more.
Since something can't come from nothing, where did god come from?
The bible is full of contradictions, and things that are not true. The fact that the people who wrote the bible knew the names of the towns and kingdoms around them in no way proves that Jesus is the son of god.
There is very little, if any historical evidence for Jesus, unless you just accept the Bible is true because it says it is.
Design points to a sh.itty designer.
"The books in the Bible have internal consistency, archaeological evidence, and historical manuscripts of over 5000 that agree to a infinitesimal degree. Thus making the historical testimony of Jesus who is called the Christ highly reliable.
Alvin Plantiga has about 22 more proofs of evidence. Look for the "two dozen or so theistic arguments"
Now you would have to come up with a belief to disregard the historical evidence."
From the world's largest research complex. The Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).
It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.
How did feather's evolved? Evolution.
"Feathers are gorgeous in their complexity, delicate in their Construction"
So who created this complex delicate design before they evolved?
See Evolution is fine, Evolution as origin is absurd.
"See Evolution is fine, Evolution as origin is absurd."
See Evolution is fine; god as the origin is absurd.
That's because you are confusing evolution with abiogenesis.
'False. The reason you doubt Christanity's Belief A is because you hold unprovable belief B.'
Sorry but that is false logic. The opposite of belief A is not belief B. If you want to make a claim for magical beings then you do indeed need to prove that. To suggest that such a claim somehow has carries equal weight to a non-belief in the claim simply by the nature of existing as a claim, is ridiculous. It would be like suggesting that my claim that a purple pixie called nigel lives under the president's desk and can only be seen on the night of a full moon by people that carry out the correct incantation is just as valid as those that say i'm a loon, and should be treated as being an equal point of view.
The person making the claim for the existence of something will always have the greater onus to prove that claim.
Feathers were not delicate or complex until they evolved to be delicate and complex. In fact, they probably didn't even start out as feathers at all.
@Peter, "Since something can't come from nothing, where did god come from?"
Sorry you rightly point out that I misspoke, something that *has a beginning* can come from nothing.
God is eternal.
"The bible is full of contradictions, and things that are not true. " would you like to discuss some, if I have time I will try to answer to the best of my limited ability.
There is very little, if any historical evidence for Jesus, unless you just accept the Bible is true because it says it is.
The writings in the Bible, which are also the writings outside the bible are accepted as true because they past the test of historicity. Internal consistency, contemporary writers, eye witness accounts, no opposition to those accounts.
So while you may find somethings difficult to accept, especially when starting from the presupposition that miracles can not happen, what evidence have you come across to dispute it's accuracy
Now Smithsonian/HAA likes to quote the end of the doc.ument however, if you read the entire doc.ument you will find a paragraph early
"On the other hand, much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical doc.uments as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient docu.ments in archeological work."
So all you have is scientist saying we can not prove history scientifically, which is a true statement. Science is based on repeatable experiment, history is not repeatable.
So he is correct we cannot "PROVE" the bible, but take heart, you can not prove that this is a dream, the matrix, that there is no life after death. You really can't prove anything. You can only make a judgement on the evidence provided. The evidence of the historical resurrection of Christ demands a verdict
Hope that helps...
Cedar, grow up.
" If you want to make a claim for magical beings then you do indeed need to prove that."
Ok prove that you can live with moral absolutes without a moral law giver. Or prove any one, just one, of your beliefs. Don't think that what you choose to live your life on requires more or less weight, because at the end of the day you still have to defend the belief of the rejection of overwhelming reliable historical evidence.
You are the 3rd grader who plays the I am rubber your glue game, except the problem is you are probably older than that now.
"It would be like suggesting that my claim that a purple pixie called nigel lives under the president's desk and can only be seen on the night of a full moon by people that carry out the correct incantation"
No it is not because you do not have a historical testimony from over 500 eye witnesses.
"The person making the claim for the existence of something will always have the greater onus to prove that claim."
You didn't read the first post did you, so why would you read this. But your claim that a claim is false still puts you in a position to support your rejection. The claim that "There can not be a god" is the claim you are making.
You can't run around the yard, saying "not ahhhn"
Discuss biblical contradictions with someone who claims that there aren't any, no thanks. Anyone who has read the bible with an open mind will tell you that there are contradictions and outright falsehoods in it. The fact that you have read the bible and refuse to admit that means discussing it with you would be a waste of both of our time.
NO Mike the claim that he is making is that there is no reason to believe what you are claiming do to the fact that their is zero evidence to support it, and that is all the support needed to reject a claim.
@Peter, I am sadden by your responses. if indeed "Anyone who has read the bible with an open mind will tell you that there are contradictions and outright falsehoods in it. "
Shouldn't you be more helpful in pointing these out so that we are all better from it. Is that not the end goal to get people away from falsehood?
"fact that their is zero evidence to support it,"
Why do you not consider the historical testimony of Christ as no evidence? Surely there is evidence as with any other historical claim. To claim there is NO evidence is just dishonest, what you mean to say is looking at the evidence you chose to dismiss it.
But please I will try to answer the doubts you have about the scripture please don't make me go through the 700 objections that someone else has. For those have already been addressed.
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Mike, I don't have any doubts.
Then what do you believe with regards to the meaning of life and how you live your life. And what is the mountain of evidence that what you believe is correct?
Mike from Ct
Why do you think there is a "meaning of life"?
I live my life as all social animals have for millions of years. We get our morality from our animal ancestors...it literally is in our DNA. People then took those moralities and put them in your book, not the other way around.
I would have to agree with Cranium, I don't see why people think there is a meaning to life. Life is whatever you make of it.
Richard, Are you proposing that all people are equally moral by virtue of genetic coding? Or are some people inferior morally by that coding? What then shall we do with those who fail to measure up? Maybe we should codify our morals into, say a book somewhere, and train our best and brightest to teach others about it.
Bill, not everyone has equal morals. Like most things that are the result of evolution morals would best be graphed using a bell curve. Some people have super morals, others horrible, but most are somewhere in between. We have codified our morals into the laws you see today.
" as all social animals have for millions of years"
So do you kill your mate after s.ex like the praying mantis, or your first born male child like the hippo attempts to do?
You are correct it is "in our DNA", I wonder who put it there. It is almost as if you agree with God on this point.
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20, ESV)
Now the issue is if it is in our DNA, but yet we differ so much which values are correct and which are incorrect. Did not the Nazi's have DNA
If Life is what you make of it, then Hitler lead a more productive life than all of us, why stop him
As Bill already touched on, it can't be relative all the way down. For if "Life is whatever you make of it." but then answer the question "Is there someone in the world doing something you believe is wrong despite their beliefs" as a yes, then morals can not be relative.
Morals can not be fully equated to law either, for Nazi Germany had laws, you must wear this star. Alabama had laws of segregation. But as MLK pointed out their is a law that is above the law of the great state of Alabama.
Again what standard do you use or compare against to call something just or unjust?
You do need something to compare against. You can not call a line crooked without having in your mind what a straight line looks like.
The underpinning idea of morality is a bell curve draws the faith assumption that we are at right end of the curve to determine if it is correct or not. A very unprovable faith as.sumption.
Mke Ct
You are trying to reduce this to your own myopic point of view. You should study genetics, epi-genetics, anthropolgy biology etc.
You have reduce the information down to a ridiculous point by removing many facts.