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 They claim that they’ve glimpsed heaven but survivors of near-death experiences face a surprising skeptic: the church.
May 19th, 2013
06:00 AM ET
Proof of heaven popular, except with the churchBy John Blake, CNN “God, help me!” Eben Alexander shouted and flailed as hospital orderlies tried to hold him in place. But no one could stop his violent seizures, and the 54-year-old neurosurgeon went limp as his horrified wife looked on. That moment could have been the end. But Alexander says it was just the beginning. He found himself soaring toward a brilliant white light tinged with gold into “the strangest, most beautiful world I’d ever seen.” Alexander calls that world heaven, and he describes his journey in “Proof of Heaven,” which has been on The New York Times bestseller list for 27 weeks. Alexander says he used to be an indifferent churchgoer who ignored stories about the afterlife. But now he knows there’s truth to those stories, and there’s no reason to fear death. “Not one bit,” he said. “It’s a transition; it’s not the end of anything. We will be with our loved ones again.” Heaven used to be a mystery, a place glimpsed only by mystics and prophets. But popular culture is filled with firsthand accounts from all sorts of people who claim that they, too, have proofs of heaven after undergoing near-death experiences. Yet the popularity of these stories raises another question: Why doesn’t the church talk about heaven anymore? Preachers used to rhapsodize about celestial streets of gold while congregations sang joyful hymns like “I’ll Fly Away” and “When the Roll is Called up Yonder.” But the most passionate accounts of heaven now come from people outside the church or on its margins. Most seminaries don’t teach courses on heaven; few big-name pastors devote much energy to preaching or writing about the subject; many ordinary pastors avoid the topic altogether out of embarrassment, indifference or fear, scholars and pastors say. “People say that the only time they hear about heaven is when they go to a funeral,” said Gary Scott Smith, author of “Heaven in the American Imagination” and a history professor at Grove City College in Pennsylvania. Talk of heaven shouldn’t wait, though, because it answers a universal question: what happens when we die, says the Rev. John Price, author of “Revealing Heaven,” which offers a Christian perspective of near-death experiences. “Ever since people started dying, people have wondered, where did they go? Where are they now? Is this what happens to me?” said Price, a retired pastor and hospital chaplain. A little girl’s revelation Price didn’t always think heaven was so important. He scoffed at reports of near-death experiences because he thought they reduced religion to ghost stories. Besides, he was too busy helping grieving families to speculate about the afterlife. His attitude changed, though, after a young woman visited his Episcopal church one Sunday with her 3-year-old daughter. Price had last seen the mother three years earlier. She had brought her then-7-week-old daughter to the church for baptism. Price hadn't heard from her since. But when she reappeared, she told Price an amazing story. She had been feeding her daughter a week after the baptism when milk dribbled out of the infant's mouth and her eyes rolled back into her head. The woman rushed her daughter to the emergency room, where she was resuscitated and treated for a severe upper respiratory infection. Three years later, the mother was driving past the same hospital with her daughter when the girl said, “Look, Mom, that’s where Jesus brought me back to you.” “The mother nearly wrecked her car,” Price said. “She never told her baby about God, Jesus, her near-death experience, nothing. All that happened when the girl was 8 weeks old. How could she remember that?” When Price started hearing similar experiences from other parishioners, he felt like a fraud. He realized that he didn’t believe in heaven, even though it was part of traditional Christian doctrine. He started sharing near-death stories he heard with grieving families and dejected hospital workers who had lost patients. He told them dying people had glimpsed a wonderful world beyond this life. The stories helped people, Price said, and those who've had similar experiences of heaven should “shout them from the rooftops.” “I’ve gone around to many churches to talk about this, and the venue they give me is just stuffed,” he said. “People are really hungry for it.” Why pastors are afraid of heaven Many pastors, though, don’t want to touch the subject because it’s too dangerous, says Lisa Miller, author of “Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination with the Afterlife.” Miller cites the experience of Rob Bell, one of the nation’s most popular evangelical pastors.  John Price ignored heaven until he met a woman with an amazing story. Bell ignited a firestorm two years ago when he challenged the teaching that only Christians go to heaven in “Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.” The book angered many members of Bell’s church as well as many in the evangelical establishment. He subsequently resigned. “Farewell, Rob Bell,” one prominent evangelical tweeted. “It’s a tough topic for a pastor,” said Miller, a former religion columnist for the Washington Post. “If you get too literal, you can risk sounding too silly. If you don’t talk about it, you’re evading one of the most important questions about theology and why people come to church.” If pastors do talk about stories of near-death experiences, they can also be seen as implying that conservative doctrine – only those who confess their faith in Jesus get to heaven, while others suffer eternal damnation – is wrong, scholars and pastors say. Many of those who share near-death stories aren’t conservative Christians but claim that they, too, have been welcomed by God to heaven. “Conservative Christians aren’t the only ones going to heaven," said Price, "and that makes them mad." There was a time, though, when the church talked a lot more about the afterlife. Puritan pastors in the 17th and 18th centuries often preached about heaven, depicting it as an austere, no fuss-place where people could commune with God. African-American slaves sang spirituals about heaven like “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.” They often depicted it as a place of ultimate payback: Slaves would escape their humiliation and, in some cases, rule over their former masters. America’s fixation with heaven may have peaked around the Civil War. The third most popular book in 18th century America – behind the Bible and “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” – was "Gates Ajar," written in the wake of the war, Miller says. The 1868 novel was “The Da Vinci Code” of its day, Miller says. It revolved around a grieving woman who lost her brother in the Civil War. A sympathetic aunt assures her that her brother is waiting in heaven, a bucolic paradise where people eat sumptuous meals, dogs sun themselves on porches and people laugh with their loved ones. “This was a vision of heaven that was so appealing to hundreds of thousands of people who had lost people in the Civil War,” Miller said. Americans needed heaven because life was so hard: People didn’t live long, infant mortality was high, and daily life was filled with hard labor. “People were having 12 kids, and they would outlive 11 of them,” said Smith, author of "Heaven in the American Imagination." “Death was ever-present.” The church eventually stopped talking about heaven, though, for a variety of reasons: the rise of science; the emergence of the Social Gospel, a theology that encouraged churches to create heaven on Earth by fighting for social justice; and the growing affluence of Americans. (After all, who needs heaven when you have a flat-screen TV, a smartphone and endless diversions?) But then a voice outside the church rekindled Americans' interest in the afterlife. A curious 23-year-old medical student would help make heaven cool again. The father of near-death experiences Raymond Moody had been interested in the afterlife long before it was fashionable. He was raised in a small Georgia town during World War II where death always seemed just around the corner. He constantly heard stories about soldiers who never returned from war. His father was a surgeon who told him stories of bringing back patients from the brink of death. In college, he was enthralled when he read one of the oldest accounts of a near-death experience, a soldier’s story told by Socrates in Plato’s “Republic.” His fascination with the afterlife was sealed one day when he heard a speaker who would change his life. The speaker was George Ritchie, a psychiatrist. Moody would say later of Ritchie, “He had that look of someone who had just finished a long session of meditation and didn’t have a care in the world.” Moody sat in the back of a fraternity room as Ritchie told his story. It was December 1943, and Ritchie was in basic training with the U.S. Army at Camp Barkeley, Texas. He contracted pneumonia and was placed in the hospital infirmary, where his temperature spiked to 107. The medical staff piled blankets on top of Ritchie’s shivering body, but he was eventually pronounced dead. “I could hear the doctor give the order to prep me for the morgue, which was puzzling, because I had the sensation of still being alive,” Ritchie said. He even remembers rising from a hospital gurney to talk to the hospital staff. But the doctors and nurses walked right through him when he approached them. He then saw his lifeless body in a room and began weeping when he realized he was dead. Suddenly, the room brightened “until it seemed as though a million welding torches were going off around me.” He says he was commanded to stand because he was being ushered into the presence of the Son of God. There, he saw every minute detail of his life flash by, including his C-section birth. He then heard a voice that asked, “What have you done with your life?" After hearing Ritchie’s story, Moody decided what he was going to do with his life: investigate the afterlife.  Raymond Moody revived interest in heaven by studying near-death experiences. He started collecting stories of people who had been pronounced clinically dead but were later revived. He noticed that the stories all shared certain details: traveling through a tunnel, greeting family and friends who had died, and meeting a luminous being that gave them a detailed review of their life and asked them whether they had spent their life loving others. Moody called his stories “near-death experiences,” and in 1977 he published a study of them in a book, “Life after Life.” His book has sold an estimated 13 million copies. Today, he is a psychiatrist who calls himself “an astronaut of inner space.” He is considered the father of the near-death-experience phenomenon. He says science, not religion, resurrected the afterlife. Advances in cardiopulmonary resuscitation meant that patients who would have died were revived, and many had stories to share. “Now that we have these means for snatching people back from the edge, these stories are becoming more amazing,” said Moody, who has written a new book, “Paranormal: My Life in Pursuit of the Afterlife.” “A lot of medical doctors know about this from their patients, but they’re just afraid to talk about it in public.” Ritchie’s story was told through a Christian perspective. But Moody says stories about heaven transcend religion. He's collected them from Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists. “A lot of people talk about encountering a being of light,” he said. “Christians call it Christ. Jewish people say it’s an angel. I’ve gone to different continents, and you can hear the same thing in China, India and Japan about meeting a being of complete love and compassion.” It’s not just what people see in the afterlife that makes these stories so powerful, he says. It’s how they live their lives once they survive a near-death experience. Many people are never the same, Moody says. They abandon careers that were focused on money or power for more altruistic pursuits. “Whatever they had been chasing, whether it's power, money or fame, their experience teaches them that what this (life) is all about is teaching us to love,” Moody said. Under 'the gaze of a God' Alexander, the author of “Proof of Heaven,” seems to fit Moody's description. He’s a neurosurgeon, but he spends much of time now speaking about his experience instead of practicing medicine. He'd heard strange stories over the years of revived heart attack patients traveling to wonderful landscapes, talking to dead relatives and even meeting God. But he never believed those stories. He was a man of science, an Episcopalian who attended church only on Easter and Christmas. That changed one November morning in 2008 when he was awakened in his Lynchburg, Virginia, home by a bolt of pain shooting down his spine. He was rushed to the hospital and diagnosed with bacterial meningitis, a disease so rare, he says, it afflicts only one in 10 million adults. After his violent seizures, he lapsed into a coma — and there was little hope for his survival. But he awakened a week later with restored health and a story to tell. He says what he experienced was “too beautiful for words.” The heaven he describes is not some disembodied hereafter. It’s a physical place filled with achingly beautiful music, waterfalls, lush fields, laughing children and running dogs. In his book, he describes encountering a transcendent being he alternately calls “the Creator” or “Om.” He says he never saw the being's face or heard its voice; its thoughts were somehow spoken to him. “It understood humans, and it possessed the qualities we possess, only in infinitely greater measure. It knew me deeply and overflowed with qualities that all my life I’ve always associated with human beings and human beings alone: warmth, compassion, pathos … even irony and humor.” Holly Alexander says her husband couldn’t forget the experience. “He was driven to write 12 hours a day for three years,” she said. “It began as a diary. Then he thought he would write a medical paper; then he realized that medical science could not explain it all.” “Proof of Heaven” debuted at the top of The New York Times bestseller list and has sold 1.6 million copies, according to its publisher. Alexander says he didn’t know how to deal with his otherworldly journey at first. “I was my own worst skeptic,” he said. “I spent an immense amount of time trying to come up with ways my brain might have done this.” Conventional medical science says consciousness is rooted in the brain, Alexander says. His medical records indicated that his neocortex — the part of the brain that controls thought, emotion and language — had ceased functioning while he was in a coma. Alexander says his neocortex was “offline” and his brain “wasn’t working at all” during his coma. Yet he says he reasoned, experienced emotions, embarked on a journey — and saw heaven. “Those implications are tremendous beyond description,” Alexander wrote. “My experience showed me that the death of the body and the brain are not the end of consciousness; that human experience continues beyond the grave. More important, it continues under the gaze of a God who loves and cares about each one of us.” Skeptics say Alexander’s experience can be explained by science, not the supernatural. They cite experiments where neurologists in Switzerland induced out-of-body experiences in a woman suffering from epilepsy through electrical stimulation of the right side of her brain. Michael Shermer, founder and publisher of Skeptic magazine, says the U.S. Navy also conducted studies with pilots that reproduced near-death experiences. Pilots would often black out temporarily when their brains were deprived of oxygen during training, he says. These pilots didn’t go to heaven, but they often reported seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel, a floating sensation and euphoria when they returned to consciousness, Shermer says. “Whatever experiences these people have is actually in their brain. It’s not out there in heaven,” Shermer said. Some people who claim to see heaven after dying didn’t really die, says Shermer, author of “Why People Believe Weird Things.” “They’re called near-death experiences for a reason: They’re near death but not dead,” Shermer said. “In that fuzzy state, it’s not dissimilar to being asleep and awakened where people have all sorts of transitory experiences that seem very real.” The boy who saw Jesus Skeptics may scoff at a story like Alexander’s, but their popularity has made a believer out of another group: the evangelical publishing industry. While the church may be reluctant to talk about heaven, publishers have become true believers. The sales figures for books on heaven are divine: Don Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven” has sold 5 million copies. And “Heaven is for Real: A Little Boy’s Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back” is the latest publishing juggernaut.  Colton Burpo says he saw heaven and describes the color of Jesus' eyes. “Heaven is for Real” has been on The New York Times bestseller list for 126 consecutive weeks and sold 8 million copies, according to its publisher. The story is told from the perspective of Colton Burpo, who was just 4 when he slipped into unconsciousness while undergoing emergency surgery for a burst appendix. Colton says he floated above his body during the operation and soared to heaven, where he met Jesus. Todd Burpo, Colton’s father, says he was skeptical about his son’s story until his son described meeting a great-grandfather and a miscarried baby sister — something no one had ever told him about. Todd Burpo is a pastor, but he says he avoided preaching about heaven because he didn’t know enough about the subject. “It’s pretty awkward,” he said. “Here I am the pastor, but I’m not the teacher on the subject. My son is teaching me.” Colton is now 13 and says he still remembers meeting Jesus in heaven. “He had brown hair, a brown beard to match and a smile brighter than any smile I’ve ever seen,’’ he said. “His eyes were sea-blue, and they were just, wow.” Colton says he’s surprised by the success of his book, which has been translated into 35 languages. There’s talk of a movie, too. “It’s totally a God thing,” he said. Alexander, author of “Proof of Heaven,” seems to have the same attitude: His new life is a gift. He’s already writing another book on his experience. “Once I realized what my journey was telling me," he said, "I knew I had to tell the story.” He now attends church but says his faith is not dogmatic. “I realized very strongly that God loves all of God’s children,” he said. “Any religion that claims to be the true one and the rest of them are wrong is wrong.” Central to his story is something he says he heard in heaven. During his journey, he says he was accompanied by an angelic being who gave him a three-part message to share on his return. When he heard the message, he says it went through him “like a wind” because he instantly knew it was true. It’s the message he takes today to those who wonder who, or what, they will encounter after death. The angel told him: “You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever.” “You have nothing to fear.” “There is nothing you can do wrong." |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I would like to know how non-believers and scoffers explain the prophecies that were foretold in the bible and are occurring today. How does that fit into the belief that God does not exist, or that He is not omniscient? Before you ask me which prophecies, let's start with the biggest signal of the times we're living in, one that began on May 14, 1948 when Israel became a nation once again. Stop arguing about God's existence, instead pay attention to the signs that are actually occurring in the world today and realize that this is not some fairy tale about simple good vs. evil, this is the ultimate battle for the salvation of humanity. That battle was won approximately 2,000 years ago on the cross by Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, it's up to you to decide which side you choose, God and heaven or Satan and hell, that's a simple yet crucial choice, the single most important choice all of humanity must make.
I guess that;s too much asking for an atheist. They don't have the brain power to do that.
how about a list of those prophesies?
"one that began on May 14, 1948 when Israel became a nation once again"
Exactly what bible passage said that the US would defeat Germany and repatriate Jewish refugees to Israel on exactly May 14th 1948?
sure, duracell....it takes lots of brainpower to fall to your knees and beg for forgivemess
How about THIS prophecy: There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock.
I would be happy to discuss the topic with you if I had the time, but I don't. There are several websites dedicated to answering your question, so I shall suggest that you use google. Good luck.
"God and heaven or Satan and hell, that's a simple yet crucial choice"
You forgot about Harry Potter, and Santa Claus, and Sasquatch, and Atlantis and Tinkerbell.
Personally, I'm going with Sasquatch.
Sasquatch would whoop jeebus' every day and twice on Sunday.
Simple, there are NO specific prophesies in the bible that have come true. NONE.
The people who wrote the NT knew what was in the OT so the prophesies that supposedly came true in the NT can be dismissed very easily.
Tell us one SPECIFIC prophesy that is coming true today. JUST ONE WILL DO.
Hey, Luis, if this is, as you claim, " the ultimate battle for the salvation of humanity", why doesn't God just snap his celestial fingers and make Satan and evil disappear? He's all-powerful, right? He can do ANYTHING, right? Not much of a battle, right?
Are you saying that your god can't save humanity?
Ha! What a wussy god!
how about the prophesy of the savior's return? how is that going, luis?
derp
"God and heaven or Satan and hell, that's a simple yet crucial choice"
You forgot about Harry Potter, and Santa Claus, and Sasquatch, and Atlantis and Tinkerbell.
Personally, I'm going with Sasquatch.
Sasquatch would whoop jeebus' every day and twice on Sunday.
This one sure doesn't have any PhD pf any kind. Sound more like a 6 grades school kid.
@ Derp: What about Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar man (not the wrestler). He fought Sasquatch, and won – ripped off his arm. I think he's the ultimate force in the universe. Not bad for 6 mil!
"derp
"one that began on May 14, 1948 when Israel became a nation once again"
Exactly what bible passage said that the US would defeat Germany and repatriate Jewish refugees to Israel on exactly May 14th 1948?"
The prophecies are not written to specifically tell you exactly when they will occur. But if you want the prophecy that speaks of Israel being on its own land again here it is.
Amos 9:14-15
New International Version (NIV)
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[a]
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.
I am done arguing here, this is pointless. All I can do is tell you that you are loved by God, the Creator of everything loves you. He knows you by name and truly wants you to know Him as He knows you. Jesus Christ said in John 14:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So go to Jesus, He'll answer all your questions, it's ok to have questions, but ask Him. He is the only one who could ultimately stop you from being a doubter.
Simple, there are NO specific prophesies in the bible that have come true. NONE.
Not exactly true. There have been prophesies foretold in the Bible, but they were written about after they already occurred. I guess it's okay to cheat when it's ordained by God.
"The prophecies are not written to specifically tell you exactly when they will occur."
Exactly, Luis. They're not specific about anything. So you can pretty much shoehorn anything in there and say, "SEE??"
Same holds true for Nostradamus and his predictions. If you want to see it, it's there. But in actuality, there's nothing.
Luis, If an omnipotent god gave that land to the Jews, why did he kick them out?
Luis, your claims of "prophecy" are a putrid pile of steaming bullshit. Anyone can say "bad stuff is gonna happen" (and myriad other stuff), and eventually enough stuff happens that something resembling their statement will happen. Claiming "prophecy" in that is total bullshit. That's a fair description of it.
Present any prophecy in the bible that has a modern date attached to it, wherein the bible said it would happen on that exact date, and then prove that exact event happened on the predicted date. Otherwise, again, you are just spouting bullshit and I'm calling you out on it.
If being an atheist resolve in believing in nothing but themselves and having nothing else to do other than just hanging around these blogs, sure sound like its a very sad and lonely life to me. Wow i forgot, they all have Degrees of some kind and PhD's. Very sad indeed.
Good response, Sue. You can also catch a whiff of Pascal's Wager from his "make a choice" garbage, but I agree with you, the stench of his other claims overwhelms that part.
MrNet, look in the mirror much? You moron.
"sam stone
how about the prophesy of the savior's return? how is that going, luis?"
Don't worry Sam, that'll happen soon. Sooner than you think, actually. I don't know the day or the hour and no true Christian can tell you that. But I'll go down this path with you for your sake. I have already stated that Israel became a nation in 1948, and I said that it was the biggest sign of the times. Psalms 90:10 says that a generation is 70-80 years. In Matthew 24 Jesus speaks of the signs of the end, and in verse 34 He clearly says that "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." He's talking about the generation that was being born at the time of Israel's repatriation. How long ago was that Sam? 65 years, I will not speak on specific dates but a rational mind can do math, and we are only 15 years short of the 80 year max for that generation, and His return will come as a thief in the night. Sam, think before you respond, truly think about what I'm saying. If you are truly curious and want to know the real truth then read Daniel, Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, read Revelation. Most importantly seek Him in prayer. It's not too late. I'll be praying for you.
One more prophecy that has not quite come, but is just around the bend. The strife in Syria that has been going on for 2 years now is not a coincidence. Damascus is claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and it is the capital of Syria. Keep watching the news.
Isaiah 17:1-3
A prophecy against Damascus:
“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
Hey, Luis – why would Christ come "as a thief in the night". Why wouldn't the Son of God come down on a lightning bolt, or surf down a rainbow, or appear in the skies over the entire planet.
Pretty wimpy god you've got there.
Sure thing, Luis. Any minute now. Keep us posted.
Nostradamus made better predictions than any found in the Bible, and they're so cryptic that few people think that more than half a dozen are even remotely linked to historical events and figures. Also, there isn't any chance that Nostradamus was writing about current, or previous events, unlike biblical prophecy.
Luis, Why not quote Jeremiah 49? Oh I forgot there are no city walls to set fire to.
Hey Duracell. Stop chasing the bunny, your ey-seus never existed. He's a made up person, taken from other myths. In short, he's a phony.
"Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear
Hey, Luis – why would Christ come "as a thief in the night". Why wouldn't the Son of God come down on a lightning bolt, or surf down a rainbow, or appear in the skies over the entire planet.
Pretty wimpy god you've got there."
He comes to retrieve those who choose Him without having seen Him. Salvation is the term for it. Salvation from what? Two things actually, firstly those of us who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior are guaranteed to be safe from the tribulation that is coming upon the world. That tribulation is the wrath of God upon an unbelieving and unrepentant world. Second, salvation from the righteous punishment for sin, which is hell. People who are left behind after this first "thief in the night" event still have the opportunity to come to Him, but must still endure the tribulation. For those that live through this terrible period, which is called by God as the absolute worst from the beginning of time until then, and that there will never be another time like it. At the end of that tribulation period, which is a seven year period, God will indeed return in a very real and visible way. All of humanity that is still alive at that time will see Him. Not really a wimpy God, just very gracious, merciful, and unwilling that any should perish but willing that all come to repentance and acceptance of His Son Jesus Christ. That again, is where free will comes into play, you have to choose whether to accept Christ or not, the consequences of your choice are your responsibility.
"I have already stated that Israel became a nation in 1948, and I said that it was the biggest sign of the times."
So Luis, how many times do you get to fulfill a prophecy? Israel has been repatriated several times throughout history, from their captivity in Babylon to their scattering by the Romans. To claim 1948 was a fulfillment of prophecy is just plain idiocy, especially when you had the major players of the allied forces who knew of the prophecy and were trying to bring about biblical fulfillment in their lifetimes. It's called a self fulfilling prophecy and anyone who can't see this as such is a complete moron. I'm looking at you Luis. I've read the bible several times, I know it's contents, and you can take just about any scripture from Psalms, Daniel or Revelation and make up as many fulfilled prophecies as you can with Nostradamus. It's a game played by decievers and fools, I for one choose to be neither.
Keep on the good job Daniel, you really are helping the atheists case. I'm sure the readers will enjoy reading this. More power to you atheists.lol
God bless you guys, I see that you are set in your decision, but I hope you see the truth before it is too late.
Luis – you god is like a monstrous child – threatening death and destruction to those who don't like him, or believe in him. Listen – he's done a really, really, crappy job of providing reasons to believe in him. if I don't believe, it's because I'm using the brain that he supposedly gave me.
You do realize that if you had been born, say, in India, you'd be a Hindu, right? And you'd think this whole Jesus thing is a bunch of garbage, right? Your religion is simply one out fo thousands throughout history – destined to fade away.
Do you atheists realized how stupid you sound? You all act like a bunch a 5th graders.
Sigh. Let me guess: 'too late' = 'LAKE OF FIRE'.
Really, how old are you Sam?
MrNet, Stupid is believing the superstitions of bronze age sheepherders and feeling that they have any relevance in the 21st century.
"Do you atheists realized how stupid you sound? You all act like a bunch a 5th graders."
HAHAHAHA...too funny coming from the one who has an imaginary friend and quite obviously no job if he is able to spend this much time on a blog (or did McDonald's fire you for spending too much time on your knee's?). Typical christard hypocrite!
The only one looking stupid here is YOU....now be a good little troll and get back under your bridge!
"Don't worry Sam, that'll happen soon"
How do you know? Doesn't the bible say no one knows the day it will happen?
Atheists openly admitting to laugh and making fun of people here is the part i enjoyed the most. I'm sure the readers will be mature enough to make their own opinions about atheism.
pray for me, luis, i will think for you
"sam
Sigh. Let me guess: 'too late' = 'LAKE OF FIRE'."
In a word... Yes. But it's so much more than a lake of fire.
Here is a commentary about what Jesus had to say about the subject.
http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-did-jesus-say-about-hell.html
Who are these 'readers' you're so obsessed with, 'net? Go away, creepy little troll.
luis: proxy threats are nonsense.
Luis, your claims of "prophecy" are a putrid pile of steaming bullshit. Anyone can say "bad stuff is gonna happen" (and myriad other stuff), and eventually enough stuff happens that something resembling their statement will happen. Claiming "prophecy" in that is total bullshit. That's a fair description of it.
Present any prophecy in the bible that has a modern date attached to it, wherein the bible said it would happen on that exact date, and then prove that exact event happened on the predicted date. Otherwise, again, you are just spouting bullshit and I'm calling you out on it now.
"sam stone
"Don't worry Sam, that'll happen soon"
How do you know? Doesn't the bible say no one knows the day it will happen?"
Sam, I like you, you're smart and funny, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm glad that you think about what I say and ask excellent questions.
In fact the bible does say that no one knows the day or the hour but the Father only. Not even Jesus knew the day or the hour. He said this in Matthew 24:42-44 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
He also said in Matthew 24:32-35 "32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
Because I have learned to discern the signs, I can tell you that we are at the cusp of huge things taking place. Thanks for thinking, but please think of your eternal soul. I have nothing to gain from your decision. But you have everything to gain or lose.
That old "before it's too late" line is always a giveaway. Luis is not only stupid, but he's ignorant of Pascal's Wager too. What a dipstick.
Recent post by Luis contains an instance of the Secret Decoder Ring fallacy.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Awe how cute, sam's gained a new friend...one who quite apparently fails to read between the lines or comprehend the true meaning behind the question
luis: biblical quotes are only valid to those who accept the spurious authority of the bible
Can you atheists have anything else to do with your life. I don't comment much on these blogs, but i regularly read them. For the past 6 months i see atheists people with the same aliases hanging around almost like if they were spending all their life here. Are you atheists homeless and living under a bridge or what?
I had the same feeling. Maybe they're just some people who never grew up.
I think a lot of the atheists here enjoy debate and critical thinking and have come out of a religious lifestyle and so enjoy explaining the fallacy of religion and how to be free of it and think in more logical ways. Speaking for myself, I have three jobs, a thriving family, and I am involved in local politics, charity organizations, youth clubs, and local theater and music/studio productions. While I hold two degrees and two other certifications, many of the atheists here have PhDs and several advanced degrees and the like.
If you are so educated why are you spending your time on these blogs?
I was evicted from my spot under the bridge; had to move into a shoe box in the middle of the road. (And if you don't get that reference I feel for your lack of education and enlightenment).
Yeah, a lot of us DO post here. Why? because we see religion for what it truly is: the most violent, divisive insti-tution that humans have created yet, and we're speaking up to try to bring an end to it.
Do you have a problem with that?
Right 'cos the believers never try to push their religion and beliefs on the rest of us. They just quietly pray to their sky-fairy and keep their religion out of our lives, schools, laws.
I don't get it. If you hate religious people so much then why are you hanging around them on these blogs? Seems like you all have a serious problem with your own personal lives..
"I don't get it. If you hate religious people so much then why are you hanging around them on these blogs?"
We don't come here for the christards, we come here for the other atheists.
I am not wasting my time at all. I am providing a service to the community free of charge, and I enjoy doing it. Wouldn't you spend time helping others if you enjoyed it and it helped them and you and your larger community?
So that means even with all the Degrees and the PhD's that you all have are useless. Otherwise you would be busy doing something else other than losing your time here.
Proof that getting too much education is worthless. They're good example of this.
If you don't like seeing our comments because we all know that reality truly does scare you, there are more suitable websites to match your special brand of crazy-try FOX or maybe tune in to Pat Robertson. Personally I find it funny that people still believe the tripe from the buybull.
OUTRAGE!!!1!
Rule #1: never read the comments.
Why do you need PhD's for? if its only to hang over here. You people must have a very sad and lonely lives.
"I don't get it. If you hate religious people so much then why are you hanging around them on these blogs? Seems like you all have a serious problem with your own personal lives.."
Sometimes it's fun to head over to the "Flat Earth Believers Blog" and first ask them if they are really serious and then laugh in their faces when they try to say they really do believe the earth is flat. Then you might try to understand where they are coming from, how anyone today could believe such nonsense, and finally when you realize they have ZERO rational for their beliefs you can shake your head in disbelief. Oh, and it's also fun to do that on the CNN belief blog.
@Duracell
I already told you that I do not consider it a "waste of time."
I'm much more concerned with what I consider a waste of time than what you or any other christard considers a waste of time.
Good point MrNet.
@Daniel
So you openly admit that you atheists enjoys laughing at people and making fun of them? Wow, that will be very interesting for the readers to know that's what being an atheists is all about. You just helped yourselves in recruiting some more people after these allegations.
Ha ha ha ha ha, nicely said.
MrNet,
We all wish we could be half as clever and mature as you.You are a veritable fount of wit and wisdom. I don't know what we would have done if you hadn't come on in to open our eyes to our wasteful ways. I was just saying to myself the other day, "You know what this blog needs? Another smug cocksucker to post some judgmental shit that proves they have zero idea of what they're talking about. That, and maybe MORE bible quotes."
Thanks for partially granting my wishes.
@ Sam – Hey!!! I was about to say the EXACT same thing! Wow – must be a miracle – proof there IS a god.
The god of sarcasm, maybe!
Your educations and Degrees and also PhD's are worthless. I love the language you're using. The readers will find it very interesting. Viva Atheism lol.
@Attack – it was prophesied. Somewhere. I'm sure of it.
MrNet
Have you been to any Christian sites lately? Plenty of griping about nonbelievers and even other Christians going on there, and the language is a lot worse as well. The mods at those sites will ban an atheist for just asking questions, but won't say boo to some Christian saying the most disgusting things imaginable about gays, Democrats, atheists, Catholics, ... you name them, they hate them all. Pick the timber out of your own eye first, buddy!
Are you any better than them?
MrNet and Duracell appear to be the same adorable poe-troll. Protip: having two sockpuppets agree with each other on the same posts makes it obvious that they're sockpuppets. Kind of thought someone calling himself 'MrNet' would know that already.
Unless of course the 'net' refers to the butterfly kind.
Your failed attempts at some sort of social engineering project/boo hooing at the 'atheists' are boring at best. Run along and let the big kids talk.
Do you suffer from some kind of paranoia or something? How about some conspiracies along with this?
No, it's just sad that you're not quite smart enough to pull off something as basic as a sockpuppet.
Have you had all the attention you hoped for, little man?
Ha ha ha ha, i'm really enjoying this. You atheists are so stupid. Hey Duracell are you me? Or am i you? Which one is it?
@Dead Battery – "So you openly admit that you atheists enjoys laughing at people and making fun of them? Wow, that will be very interesting for the readers to know that's what being an atheists is all about. You just helped yourselves in recruiting some more people after these allegations."
I openly admitted that I laugh at people who still think the world is flat and continue to reject common sense, logic and reason. I will now openly admit that I laugh at Christians, Muslims, Hindu's and any religious zealot for I believe they are rejecting common sense, logic and reason and deserve to be laughed at. It's not like laughing at someone who doesn't know they have toilet paper stuck to their shoe, it's like informing them they have the whole turd on their foot but they decide to ignore you anyway and just stomp off while the shlt splatters all over their clothes. There is nothing wrong with laughing at that.
MrNet/Duracell, So you think an education is not required for being on this board, and that atheists shouldn't be on this board. What does that say for your expectations for being a christian?
Daniel: Do you openly admit that christians enjoy endlessly bloviating empty proxy threats? That should give people a good look into the mindset of the christians
"In Santa we trust
How do natural disasters like the Oklahoma tornado fit into this free will thing? If you feel that your god is omnipotent then it stands to reason that your god caused, or did not prevent, the tornado, do you have an explanation for that? Is your god punishing the children and if so why? You claim that your god created the universe and all in it, yet you only credit god with the good things and blame someone else for the bad things. Why?
May 21, 2013 at 12:07 pm "
Your mistake is that you want to give people to both give credit and blame to God for anything and everything. God deserves the credit of creating a perfect world, Satan deserves blame for infecting that perfect creation with sin. The result of that sin is sickness, death, "natural" disasters, etc. God does not want these things to occur, these senseless deaths and violence that humans cause on each other. In Ephesians 2:2 it says "ruler of the kingdom of the air" in reference to Satan having limited power and freedom to do as he chooses, not because wants this to be so but because is God is allowing Satan to dig himself deeper into his grave. Ever since Adam & Eve sinned until today there has been a very real spiritual war for the souls of humanity. And one day soon this war will be over, it is up to each person to decide which side they will be on. Jesus came to die on the cross, to pay the debt each individual owes for their sin. These other things occurring are distractions Satan wants to use to take your focus away from yourself just as you have done. God wants each person to come to Jesus and ask forgiveness of their sins and acceptance of Jesus as their Lord and Savior so that one day all can inhabit the new perfect world He has been working on since the fall from Eden. You may scoff, and call me names, but I haven't said anything offensive, you asked for a real response, here it is.
God is not the cause of these terrible tragedies, 2 Chronicles 7:14 says "14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land." That's what must occur for these tragedies to cease, collectively we must return to God through His Son Jesus Christ. You have the free will to continue to ignore this plea from God, and nothing will change. Or you can choose to listen to His plea and humble yourself before Him and pray for forgiveness and healing. I hope this satisfies your quest for an answer.
"I hope this satisfies your quest for an answer"
It doesn't.
It is a laughable cop out that contradicts itself.
But thanks for playing.
You honestly believe that prayer can stop a tornado from happening? Because that is just plain silly.
God created everything, including Satan. God is omniscient, so he knows what Satan is going to do. God is omnipotent, so he has the power to stop Satan. Blaming Satan is like me blaming my fist for punching someone in the face: Jeez, Officer, it wasn't me! It was this dang fist!
Besides, read your precious bible, starting with Isaiah 45:7 – "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
There – your god said it. He creates evil.
Your god is a real Cvnt!
To Satan goes all of mankind's souls and to God goes all mankind's spirited beings!
I'm sorry, "Luis", but all that is unfounded.
Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear
God created everything, including Satan. God is omniscient, so he knows what Satan is going to do. God is omnipotent, so he has the power to stop Satan. Blaming Satan is like me blaming my fist for punching someone in the face: Jeez, Officer, it wasn't me! It was this dang fist!
Besides, read your precious bible, starting with Isaiah 45:7 – "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Did you read all of Isaiah 45? NO? Oh, then you missed the fact that God is talking about His mighty power. How about reading on? Isaiah 45:8-12
8 “You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.
9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’
11 “This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.
Luis:All spewing your buybull does is prove how gullible you really are.
Hey, Luis – read your bible – God creates evil.
Your god is a monster. What kind of sick, twisted person follows a god who gets his jollies from genocide, slavery, r-ape, child abuse and human sacrifice, then blames everyone else – Satan, his own creations – for that evil.
Your god is one sick mofo.
And here we have Luis retreating faster than an evangelical apologizing for adultery.
"God deserves the credit of creating a perfect world, Satan deserves blame for infecting that perfect creation with sin."
So who get's the blame for creating Satan? No, you know what, I don't want to hear another invented excuse as to how your God could be totally perfect and unblemished while still allowing the evil in the world to exist.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" – Epicurus approx 340 years before Christ. This question has a long history.
Luis
By your "logic" the places with the least sin would be the places least affected by natural disasters. It seems, however, that the areas commonly called the "Bible Belt" here in America are hit hardest by these disasters. How do you account for this?
Without God's Holy Spirit which by the way is spatial nothingness, cloven atomic cloisters would never have become formed let alone become the celestial manifestations of the stars, planets, moons and all other sorts of atomized creations all floating within the vastness of nothingness seas. God lives way beyond the boundaries of all celestial contrivances far and further away from this earthen vestige we call earth, even further away from mankind's potentials to venture forth into the nothingness regions of outward spatial accords.
Mankind is but a living celestial construct of atomic ordinances. From our celestial mainframes of atomized perplexities will mankind ensue Life-living practicalities. Celestially ordained and atomically structured are all cosmically profound structural engrams of living manifestations; all being held in God's Life-bonded considerations. Intra-terrestrially woven are all things of celestial considerations via atomic cloistering issuances of Godly constraints.
Just for grins – I took the last paragraph and rearranged the words in a totally random fashion.
constraints are structured structural ensue in living things Intra-terrestrially of considerations God's construct a celestial from woven of ordained atomized living Godly Mankind being all considerations. cosmically and manifestations; mankind issuances of perplexities Life-living atomic of mainframes Celestially practicalities. is of atomically celestial ordinances. engrams will celestial our Life-bonded via all cloistering all atomic held profound are but.
Makes just as much sense in random order – doesn't it?
As usual, Vic, your claims are nonsense, and you haven't presented any proof for your claims. Furthermore, the whole "Jesus died to save us" thing is a complete scam concocted by priests. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.
Now, since you persist in dumping bible quotes on us, let's take a look at what's really in your idiotic Christian book of nasty, in both OT and NT:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Bobble headed Bobbie,
Thanks but no thanks. I have enough religious truths of spatial relativisms to last me the rest of my Life here and of now times. May God find your misguided truths helpful and condemnation an arbitrary vestige within dehumanizing quagmires of serpentine gestations.
Reiteration of the ALREADY Answered Question & Beyond
A lot of people are confusing God's Foreknowledge/Omniscience with Predestination! God gave man FREE WILL and revealed His Natural Law to him to maintain order and live happy in this Life! It's up to man what to do with it! In the meantime, God, as He is Omniscient, foreknows what man will choose to do but He does not interfere with man's Free Will because He honors it! Contradiction would be if man was predestined to what he is to do, which is NOT the case!
To reiterate, Foreknowledge/Omniscience and Predestination are two DIFFERENT things!
Also, regarding time& realm, God is Eternal and Metaphysical! He is outside the realm of His Creation (this Physical Universe and Life in it) including time, and He is NOT subject to any of it!
Before the Dispensation of Grace (Salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ,) God intervened DIRECTLY to get His Message across several times but NOT to force people to believe NOR to interfere with FREE WILL!
He may very well choose to intervene however and whenever as He sees fit! That does not mean we can know all about it! As a human and a Christian, it is not my job to judge nor condemn anyone! If I were to judge or condemn anyone, that would be myself!
Related Previous Posts:
http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/22/science-seat-another-earth-called-a-certainty/#comment-138045
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/03/23/the-money-man-behind-atheisms-activism/comment-page-34/#comment-2237533
But to be saved and have Eternal Life, ALL what God wants from man is to BELIEVE!!!
!!!SALVATION!!!
John 3:16,17
"16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
http://www.biblegateway.com
How do natural disasters like the Oklahoma tornado fit into this free will thing? If you feel that your god is omnipotent then it stands to reason that your god caused, or did not prevent, the tornado, do you have an explanation for that? Is your god punishing the children and if so why? You claim that your god created the universe and all in it, yet you only credit god with the good things and blame someone else for the bad things. Why?
HEY VIC !!!
You do know the old pope kicked the angels with pitch fork off the team.....last xmas.........don't you Bill ?
All these years .Bill..............there are angels.....................then poof............go the red horn-y thingy too HA BILL.
Where are the fvcking morals there BILL or ethics ?
May 21, 2013 at 9:22 am | Report abuse |
Bill Deacon
You keep making some obscure reference to angels science. Would you care to make a lucid reference that I might respond to? I've given you the catechism on angels which is the definitive statement. Perhaps something you've read has led you astray.
May 21, 2013 at 9:33 am | Report abuse |
John
read the Seth Material. It makes much more sense than any religion.
May 21, 2013 at 9:35 am | Report abuse |
Science
Pope's book on Jesus debunks Christmas myths.....................which one where you BILL ?
By Laura Smith-Spark, CNN
(CNN) – It's Christmas, but not as you know it: a new book by released this week by Pope Benedict VI looks at the early life of Jesus – and debunks several myths about how the Nativity really unfolded.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/22/popes-book-on-jesus-debunks-christmas-myths/?iref=allsearch
May 21, 2013 at 10:17 am | Report abuse |
Science
Come on Bill the Cat got a hold of something..............or is it ht e beast ..............666 ?
May 21, 2013 at 10:37 am | Report abuse |
Science
Oops............the.................red horn-y devil comes from WHERE BILL ?
May 21, 2013 at 10:39 am | Report abuse |
Science
Education....................Bill ?
Moving forward CREATIONIST............chadieie too ............ you might want to take a blood test?
Scientists Find Genes Linked to Human Neurological Disorders in Sea Lamprey Genome
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130224142915.htm
Peace
Facts work .
May 21, 2013 at 11:02 am | Report abuse |
In Santa we trust sayz,
"How do natural disasters like the Oklahoma tornado fit into this free will thing?................" Genetics, from Genesis. You don't live in the garden no mo. Noticed??
As usual, Vic, the claims in your post are nonsense, and you haven't presented any proof for your specious claims. Furthermore, the whole "Jesus died to save us" thing is a complete scam concocted by con artist priests. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.
Now, since you persist in dumping bible quotes on us, let's take a look at what's really in your idiotic Christian book of nasty, in both OT and NT:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Vic-Couldn't agree more with this post! Believing and accepting is the key!
How is freewill consistent with an omniscient god?
you have not answered that
you have just danced around it with some silly a$$ed scripture
answer the question directly
@I S w t "....."
I already answered that earlier with:
"..God foreknows everything, and as he created this universe and life in it and set them in motion, He lets them take their Natural Course! God executes His plans for whatever reason that we might not know about! I might not understand God's prudence but I don't question His wisdom while wondering about it!"
@I S w t "....."
I already answered that earlier with:
"..God foreknows everything, and as he created this universe and life in it and set them in motion, He lets them take their Natural Course! God executes His plans for whatever reason that we might not know about! I might not understand God's prudence but I don't question His wisdom while wondering about it!"
"God, as He is Omniscient, foreknows what man will choose to do"
And, because of god's omniscience, man cannot do other than what god knows he or she will do.
Therefore, no free will
Dance around that
Vic is a master of the dodge dance. Dodge, dodge, dodge, Vic.
For the Benefit of the Reader:
"A lot of people confuse God's Foreknowledge/Omniscience with Predestination! God gave man FREE WILL and revealed His Natural Law to him to maintain order and live happy in this Life! It's up to man what to do with it! In the meantime, God, as He is Omniscient, foreknows what man will choose to do but He does not interfere with man's Free Will because He honors it! Contradiction would be if man was predestined to what he is to do, which is NOT the case!"
&
"..God foreknows everything, and as He created this universe and life in it and set them in motion, He lets them take their Natural Course! God executes His plans for whatever reason that we might not know about! I might not understand God's prudence but I don't question His wisdom while wondering about it!"
&
"As a human and a Christian, it is not my job to judge nor condemn anyone! If I were to judge or condemn anyone, that would be myself!"
Answer the repeated questions!
For the Benefit of the Reader:
"A lot of people confuse God's Foreknowledge/Omniscience with Predestination! God gave man FREE WILL and revealed His Natural Law to him to maintain order and live happy in this Life! It's up to man what to do with it! In the meantime, God, as He is Omniscient, foreknows what man will choose to do but He does not interfere with man's Free Will because He honors it! Contradiction would be if man was predestined to what he is to do, which is NOT the case!"
&
"..God foreknows everything, and as He created this universe and life in it and set them in motion, He lets them take their Natural Course! God executes His plans for whatever reason that we might not know about! I might not understand God's prudence but I don't question His wisdom while wondering about it!"
&
"As a human and a Christian, it is not my job to judge nor condemn anyone! If I were to judge or condemn anyone, that would be myself!"
Answer the repeated questions!
I guess you missed the part about a lucid reference. Do other people understand your cut and paste communiques?
Vic, did the Pharoh have free will, or did god harden his heart so that he would not let the Jews go free thereby contradicting what you just wrote?
sam stone sayz,
"...........And, because of god's omniscience, man cannot do other than what god knows he or she will do....."
So what other would you LIKE to do outside of the eyes of God?? Pretend you are a god?? You are doing a swell imitation of that already.
Except Vic, that you're not answering the question. How is god's omniscience compatible with human free will. It's one or the other. Free will implies we can choose and therefore our actions are unpredictable; omniscience implies god knows what we will do and therefore our actions predictable. If our actions are predictable why do the concepts of sin, punishment for sin, and forgiveness for sin exist?
Santa, what's on your secret "to do" list that you don't want God to know about??
lol??....this discussion was about free will. now, go fvck yourself
Hey VIC ???
http://www.ibtimes.com/atheists-fight-gideon-bibles-books-christopher-hitchens-richard-dawkins-georgia-state-parks-1271125
sam stone sayz,
"lol??....this discussion was about free will. now, go fvck yourself"
Trying to control. Isn't that a god-like attribute??
lol?. End world hunger. Prevent all preventable disease. World peace. But the big guy upstairs just doesn't want it to happen. Seems he's pissed off about a talking snake and a truthiness apple that he created and being omniscient must have predicted the outcome but you know ego, power-trips, etc. get in the way of functioning relationships.
Santa, those are some mighty big secrets on your list. That's a safe place for em, though, at least from your customers.
December are you saying that anyone that does not know Jesus is not getting into Heaven?
No.
One of the things that the Oklahoma storms teach us is that we need to be ready for death whenever it may come. The only way to be ready is to repent of our sin and ask Jesus for forgiveness.
"Who's Jesus? Never heard of him."
– signed,
your human brother living in a primitive mountain tribe in Afghanistan
If you ask for forgiveness does that mean you won't die?
Forgiveness for what? I didn't do anything to be sorry for concerning Jesus.
Yes, some people do not know about Jesus, scripture addresses this. That is why Jesus asked his disciples to spread the good news of God's love.
some people do not know about Jesus, scripture addresses this
----
That's great. However again, how is scripture relevant to someone who doesn't know scripture exists? Why would someone prioritize your scripture above theirs, especially when they have no knowledge of yours? Wouldn't they just follow theirs?
What sins do you feel those children were guilty of?
Oh fricking wow...what the hell are all you christards smoking today?? Are you forgetting there were children in those schools?? What horrible sin could they have committed that they deserved this hand being dealt to them?? There were people who admitted to praying, there was a 72 year old man who was as devout as you and he's homeless now-what the hell did him and his wife do and why should they suffer for other people's failures??
If you don't understand what creates a tornado, say so and we'll be happy to point you to a website where you can learn all them but to invoke your imaginary friend and say he allowed this because of people making mistakes only stands to further our stance.
Or, perhaps you can grow a set and realize that bad things happen
If somebody has a real cure for cancer – you give it to them. They can continue to follow their black magic or whatever supersti.tious belief they have about curing illness. But it won't work like the real cure for cancer.
Jesus is like that real cure for cancer.
"Jesus is like that real cure for cancer."
I didn't know there was a real cure for cancer, I would think that would be big news...
Unless you meant he's like the cure for cancer that doesn't exist... now I see what you mean, yes I agree, Jesus is exactly like the non-existant cure for cancer. Got it.
They can continue to follow their black magic or whatever supersti.tious belief they have about curing illness
------–
Ah, yes of course. Only your way is the "real" way. The cure. All others are false cures. You know this because...............it's your way! The hilarious irony about you, is that had you been born in Saudi Arabia(something out of your control) you'd be a muslim, and would then believe that christians followed a false cure.
@Daniel
People have been cured of cancer. It is big news.
@Madtown
It is not my way. It is His.
@Madtown
It is not my way. It is His.
----
Your thick head is quite impenetrable. No, it's your way because it's the way you choose to follow. Why? You have access to it. If it's "his" way, you're suggesting it's the "only" way or the "correct" way, but that can't be true because many of your human equals have no access. Again, picture youself as having been born in Egypt. You'd be a muslim, and decry christians as following a false God. You, as a muslim, would also believe you follow "his way".
My way is not Jesus way. I had and continue to repent and change my ways to align them with His ways.
I was not born in Egypt. I am not a Muslim. Sitting around wondering about being something I'm not seems foolish.
That is like sitting around imagining what if I was born as a dog or a cat. What is the point?
I never said it was the "only" or "correct" way. It is Jesus' way.
The good news.
I am not a Muslim. Sitting around wondering about being something I'm not seems foolish.
-----–
I know, you're unable to comphrehend anything outside of your own little box. You can't fathom how there could possibly be other humans in this world who aren't just like you. But yet....there are. You can follow Jesus' way, again......you only know of this way because of the culture in which you were raised. It isn't the only path to follow, nor is it any better than any other path.
Vic, like most Christians, is a coward. He will go on dodging questions all day if you let him. Pin him down; repeat your question when he dodges it.
All Christians are cowards because they let Jesus take the punishment they deserve.
Joey
I don't know about it being cowardly, thou I'd certainly say it isn't fair. But thankfully, I'm the beneficiary of this kindness. And for that, I'm eternally grateful.
Topher, is that me?
It is certainly cowardly. But, Topher/Gopher will not admit it, primarily because he is a coward
topher acknowledges that he benefits from an injustice perpertrated by what he claims is a just being. of course, he cannot see the contradiction in it....
Sort of like the reciept of stolen property....."sure, it was someone else's motorcycle, but what the hell, i needed a new harley"
if topher/gopher or any of his ilk had any credibility, they would stand up and say "fvck this supposed sacrifice...if i am guilty, punish me"
but they won't.
topher/gopher is all about cowering before the big celestial pr1ck
Did someone say there was food and dogs in heaven. No cats. Good.
The heaven has strict immigration laws; I asked for an asylum but God did not grant me, so I had to come back to the Earth.
can we talk crushing skulls?
now kfc is raising boneless chickens
more dodo
these terrorists need to be locked up
That crack pipe must be over-loaded today! Time to put it down and pick up a science book.
o, Vic, why does your omnipotent sky jerk kill kids with tornadoes often?
One thing for sure all the prayers to stop in 1999 and 2003 didn't work since the tornado came back to the same area again, proving there is no God.
@Pete
You said, "One thing for sure all the prayers to stop in 1999 and 2003 didn't work since the tornado came back to the same area again, proving there is no God."
Actually, considering the remarkable overlap between tornado alley and the bible belt, there is a case to be made that all those christians in that area are worshiping the wrong god.
Tornados happen because of sin and the fall.
Topher
Tornados happen because of sin and the fall.
............
This must be a troll acting like Topher because even I dont think Topher is this clueless.
Why am I clueless?
@Topher,
"Tornados happen because of sin..."
How exactly does "sin" cause a tornado? (references would be appreciated.)
That is easy, Adam ate an apple 6,000 years ago, and god is still taking it out on children to this very day.
ME II
"How exactly does "sin" cause a tornado? (references would be appreciated.)"
Good question, dude. When Adam sinned, "the fall" happened. It didn't just corrupt man, but all of Creation.
"For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." Romans 8:22
That would include the weather.
In Genesis, God looked at His creation and called it "good." Which means before man brought sin into the world, there was no death of any kind. No killing. No eating animals. Animals weren't killing each other. There was no disease, etc, etc. But that all came to be after the fall.
@Topher
I'm sorry but you can't honestly believe that your loving god would completely ruin his entire creation over the bite of a single apple could you?
Please, think about this for a moment before you answer. Adam and Eve (somehow) escape gods notice long enough to eat a magical fruit that god left unguarded in his garden. God gets upset and wants to punish them and casts them out of the garden of Eden. At what point does it make sense for this loving god to then make this world a terrible place, full of disasters and hurt for thousands of generations all in punishment over a single act?
Why do you accept this?
@Topher,
". When Adam sinned, "the fall" happened. It didn't just corrupt man, but all of Creation."
So, how exactly did "sin" "corrupt" all of "Creation"?
God looked at His creation and called it "good." Which means before man brought sin into the world, there was no death of any kind. No killing
---–
So, in the beginning, man was perfect?
Chuckles
"I'm sorry but you can't honestly believe that your loving god would completely ruin his entire creation over the bite of a single apple could you? "
It's not about the apple and I think you know that. It is about choosing self over God. Man doesn't want to be told what to do or what is right and so Adam chose to listen to Satan above God. It's rebellion.
"Please, think about this for a moment before you answer. Adam and Eve (somehow) escape gods notice long enough to eat a magical fruit that god left unguarded in his garden."
No. God knew what they were doing. And knew they would do it before they erred. It was part of the plan all along.
"God gets upset and wants to punish them and casts them out of the garden of Eden. At what point does it make sense for this loving god to then make this world a terrible place, full of disasters and hurt for thousands of generations all in punishment over a single act?"
First, all this terrible stuff ... man is to blame. God's creation was "good" until we caused the corruption. Two, it's not a single act. You and I sin every day. We've racked up an incredible amount of debt. Let's say you've sinned an incredibly low 3-times a day. That's more than 1000 sins in a year. Over a lifetime? More than 80000.
"Why do you accept this?"
Well, because it's true. But I know you don't think it is.
@Madtown
Of course man was perfect. God can't make anything less than perfect. He was perfect until he wasn't perfect, but that wasn't gods fault because he wasn't looking. I mean, it's so easy to understand right?
Gods everywhere except for, arguably, the most important part of human history where all of a sudden god isn't looking and man takes a bite of some fruit.
SHAME MADTOWN, SHAME ON YOU for having an ancestor at the beginning of human history doing something naughty. I hope a an earthquake happens in a third world country just to impress this point.
ME II
"So, how exactly did "sin" "corrupt" all of "Creation"?"
Not sure I understand your question. Are you asking for examples of the curse on creation? If so, I've already told you about death. That didn't exist before. Disease. Suffering. Are you familiar with entropy? It says everything is in a state of decay. EVERYTHING. Your house will need repairs. Your car will rust. Your body will fail.
LOL Chuckles! I nominate you for today's Excellence in Sarcasm award!
@Topher
"It's not about the apple and I think you know that. It is about choosing self over God. Man doesn't want to be told what to do or what is right and so Adam chose to listen to Satan above God. It's rebellion."
–According to the bible, man was only slightly smarter than your average bird, we had no knowledge of good and evil or knowledge of any kind, let alone "choosing self over God". The act described in Gensis is clearly more of a duping and accident rather than full on rebellion.
"No. God knew what they were doing. And knew they would do it before they erred. It was part of the plan all along."
–That's awful, seriously just sick stuff. If you had a dog and put him in a room with an extremely hot stove and placed a bone on top for him to get, left the room to allow him to burn himself and then threw him out on the street. How is that in anyway a good plan, or even a logical plan.
"First, all this terrible stuff ... man is to blame. God's creation was "good" until we caused the corruption. Two, it's not a single act. You and I sin every day. We've racked up an incredible amount of debt. Let's say you've sinned an incredibly low 3-times a day. That's more than 1000 sins in a year. Over a lifetime? More than 80000."
- A) sounds like god is to blame, seems pretty cut and dry and B) How exactly do I sin every day and how exactly does god give me an out to stop sinning? Seems like the sinning is occuring because I'm a live and the only way to stop is to die, but killing myself is also a sin so.... pretty much god puts everyone in an impossible situation and then demands we figure it out and still follow his rules AND we have to love him.
That's that worst case of an abusive relationship I've ever seen.
"Tornados happen because of sin and the fall"
Wow, that has to be one of the most uneducated reasons ever. Unbelievable how stupid you made yourself sound by saying that.
@Topher,
"Not sure I understand your question. Are you asking for examples of the curse on creation?"
No, I'm asking what the reaction is that "sin" causes on "creation" that corrupts it? How does "sin" interact with the natural world in such a way as to cause "corruption"?
Topher: I'm just going to add to this that there were innocent children killed last night and for you to say the tornadoes happened as the result of sin, I'd love to know exactly how horrible you think these children were that your vindictive god sent a horrible act of nature to kill them??? How the hell do you expect us to ever think anything good about your god, if as you believe this is his form of punishment??? What an ASS!
Death is such a big part of human existence that dust balls think it's natural and not an enemy.
"Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
@Truth
Here of course is the saddest thing that Christians are entirely comfortable with. They have no issues with children being killed by this natural disaster and blame it on you and I because of our disbelief. Somehow my disbelief in NorCal somehow effects the weather enough to send a gigantic tornado down on an elementry school in Oklahoma by simply believing it. Furthermore although my disbelief is an evil enough act to kill children, believers are powerless to use their belief for good by sending their good will to children in Africa magically getting food.
What Topher is pointing out is apparently disbelief has more power on earth to cause harm than belief on earth can cause goodness which leads us to wonder, how powerful is god that he can't fight our "evil" with his "good" and if he is powerful enough to do and chooses not to, who is he teaching a lesson to? Surely not the children in Oklahoma, surely not the parents of those kids. As a logical, thinking person I know that my feelings on a subject in no way effect the weather 100's of miles away so this act has taught no one a lesson and left a town in ruin.
"1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death."
Chuckles, if yer such a big man, YOU put death down.
@lol??
What? You mean like insult death? stop death? is death a physical object that I can set down?
You wanna be clearer kiddo?
But Topher don't you believe god started the whole process over with the 8 just people on the ark? Did not god kill off all the sinners at that time? Where in the bible does it say where Noah's family screwed up started sinning and started the fallen mankind again? Topher do you believe everything you are told by pastors?
Topher, dude...seriously. Holly sh.it, we're down to Chad.
Chuckles
"How exactly do I sin every day ..."
Have you ever told a lie? Stolen anything, regardless of value or how long ago? (downloaded music, taken change from your parents, a toy from a sibling, came in late to work or surfed the web while on the clock?) Have you ever said 'Oh, my G–!' or used His name to express disgust? Have you ever looked at a woman and had lustful thoughts?
"and how exactly does god give me an out to stop sinning?"
You don't stop sinning. I still sin as a Christian. The difference is a change of heart. I HATE it when I sin. And when I do it, I repent and ask forgiveness.
chuckles sayz,
"......As a logical, thinking person I know.........." So you wouldn't want me to influence you on how you wanna fight death. So you pick a way. Buy a shovel and dig some shelters in tornado alley?? Just a thought.
"I HATE it when I sin. And when I do it, I repent and ask forgiveness."
Let's change that to my stance. "I HATE it when I make a mistake. And when I do it, I apologize to the person offended/affected and make amends.
You make it sound like it's okay for you to sin as long as you pray it away later. That takes the responsibility off of your hands...no blood, so to speak..
JMEF
"Did not god kill off all the sinners at that time?"
No.
"Where in the bible does it say where Noah's family screwed up started sinning and started the fallen mankind again?"
You've never read the Bible, have you? What's the very next section of Genesis after the Flood?
"Topher do you believe everything you are told by pastors?"
I suppose it depends on the pastor. I trust mine. But it doesn't really matter what ANY pastor tells me if what he says isn't in scripture. What matters is what GOD says.
@Topher,
Not sure if you saw my question. I'm asking what the reaction is that "sin" causes on "creation" that corrupts it? How does "sin" interact with the natural world in such a way as to cause "corruption"?
"Why am I clueless?" – Topher/Gopher
I have wondered that, too. All I can figure out is that you have the bible jammed so far up your backside that it is preventing blood flow to your brain. But, you don't need it. All you need to do is cower
Truth Prevails 🙂
"You make it sound like it's okay for you to sin as long as you pray it away later."
That's certainly not what I mean to convey and I'm sorry if that's the case. The point is I understand it means to God when I sin against Him ... considering what he's done for me. It's NOT OK to sin. And "pray(ing) it away" isn't how it works. You must repent and trust in Christ to have your sins wiped away.
"That takes the responsibility off of your hands...no blood, so to speak.."
In a way, yes. Christ took the punishment for my sins. He paid my fine in His blood.
ME II
I'll have to get back with you on that one, dude. I honestly don't know.
Topher, "What matters is what GOD says."
.
Incorrect, it is what man says.
topher................you might enjoy this ?
http://www.ibtimes.com/atheists-fight-gideon-bibles-books-christopher-hitchens-richard-dawkins-georgia-state-parks-1271125
"Christ took the punishment for my sins. He paid my fine in His blood"
Yet you consider god to be merciful. Amazing what mental contortions you fvcktards will twist into
topher doesn't mind injustice, as long as he benefits
@Topher
You're avoiding the crux of my post. Why are you allowing for this god to call all the shots when so far his batting average is pretty low. He made a perfect creation and when that perfect creation somehow became imperfect, god decided instead of scrapping the whole thing, to eternally punish it with no hope of redemption.
This sounds like a horrible way to treat a creation simply because you're pis.sed at someone who's been dead for thousands of years. Why love a god who is so imperfect himself?
chuckles sayz,
".........no hope of redemption.........."
Yeah, you just wanna keep patchin' up the ol' Ford. Too bad the Big O didn't think your way instead of runnin' up the prices in the used car market. That being said the bennies of new can't be discounted.
"Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
@lol??
Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Is english your second language?
Chuckles
"Why are you allowing for this god to call all the shots when so far his batting average is pretty low"
Well, as God He'd be calling all the shots whether I "allowed" it or not. But I choose to follow Him because of how kind He has been to me. Everything I have is from Him. "And while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Despite my willful rebellion against Him for almost 30 years, He still made me the ultimate offer. He took my punishment so I didn't have to.
"He made a perfect creation and when that perfect creation somehow became imperfect, god decided instead of scrapping the whole thing, to eternally punish it with no hope of redemption."
With all due respect, you don't understand the Gospel. There IS hope. You and I deserve Hell because we've broken His laws. That SHOULD be our punishment. But God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell. So He took it upon Himself to take what we deserve. And three days after He died, He defeated death — not only proving that He is God, but ensuring us eternal life. And in response, all we have to do (and can do) is repent (not just saying we're sorry and asking forgiveness, but turning from sins) and trusting in Him is be and do what He claimed. That's all. What an incredible gift!
"Why love a god who is so imperfect himself?"
God is perfect. And just to punish you and just to forgive you. To reject His offer to wipe your slate clean is foolishness. Which will you decide?
You must repent and trust in Christ to have your sins wiped away
-----
"Stinks for me, I've never heard of this Christ person."
– yours,
a wonderfully kind, loving, intelligent, compassionate, talented, thoughtful human being who's every bit your equal, but has been placed by God into an Aboriginal tribe inhabiting a remote section of the Australian Outback, with no access to christianity.
Madtown
Ridiculous. Aboriginies have plenty of contact with Christians. And even if they don't, as people in other parts of the world, they will have no excuse. God has given them a creation and a conscience to know He exists.
Topher, if you believe you have free will is it not you calling all the shots? If god is calling all of the shots then you don't have free will at all, so which is it?
God has given them a creation and a conscience to know He exists
-----
Aboriginals are simply an example. Many remote tribes, and not-so-remote regions, have no knowledge of christianity, they follow other traditions that have developed within their culture. If you say "God has given them a creation and a conscience to know He exists", I actually agree with that. However, you seem to make the mistake of equating God with christianity, as if there's no differentiation. They are 2 independent notions, God and religion. If God has given a primitive tribe a notion of his existence, yet they know nothing of christianity, that means that God doesn't require them to follow the principles of christianity.
))Madtown
The Bible teaches in the passage in Romans that God will judge us by the light we have received.
Honestly, you need to worry about yourself. These other people you like to bring up can take care of themselves.
We are confident that God will not hold anyone accountable for any knowledge he did not receive. At the same time, the Bible emphatically states that Christ is the only sure way to salvation. Anyone who has heard of the saving grace of Jesus, and rejects it, would be thumbing his nose at God.
Good news is Jesus loved a lot of people while he was here. I'm sure he can even forgive and love those who thumb their nose at God. There is a lot of hope.
Jesus will take care of the Aborigines. He loves them.
So Topher, can you tell us which of the good citizens of Moore brought this upon their community, or is your god making them pay for other's sins?
Eh, Jesus pretty much says the opposite of your theory.
It was pretty common for people to go around after a tragedy looking for the person who didn't pray or angered the gods.
People who had an illness – It was thought that it was a punishment from God.
Jesus says this is not so.
the Bible emphatically states that Christ is the only sure way to salvation
----
Great, so? The bible is a creation of the human mind, not God. You think you'll special relative to other humans on earth that have never heard of christianity? God loves you more, so placed you in an area of the world where you'd know the "one true way"? Ridiculous. God being an amazingly powerful creative force, who created this entire universe and all life within, could easily craft a book and make it available to all of mankind, to serve as his word without humans writing it. Or, God could simply plant the knowledge of christianity in each of us when we're born, so we all knew of Jesus. He has not done this. What this clearly means, is that God does not care if we follow the traditions of christianity, and that Christ is not the only way. Unless you think you're better than many other people on the planet.....
Hmmmm... the way of Jesus Christ or the way of Madtown...
I... choose... Jesus. Yes. Thank God for Jesus.
Now, to carry on his message to others....
Hey, do what works for you. Find your own understanding of God that makes sense to you.
Pray on it. Ask God to show you the truth.
And don't worry so much about other people. You can only save yourself.
Ask God to show you the truth
----
Now you're starting to get it. That's the entire point, many people throughout history in different cultures have done exactly this..........but still have no knowledge of christianity. That is because it's not a universal truth, it's relative to culture. You certainly may choose Jesus, you do so because you have grown up in a culture where christianity is prevalent. Think about if you had been born in the middle east? You'd be a muslim, and you'd believe that the muslim way is the correct way, and you'd also believe christians have it all wrong. Interesting, huh?
I am encouraged to preach Jesus Christ. Not Christianity.
What if I'd been born a horse? What is your point? I was not born in the Middle East. I am not a Muslim. I know Jesus Christ is God's son – He was sent to save God's whole creation. If I didn't believe this I might as well be a Unitarian, pagan, atheist or Muslim. But God chose me. Not the other way around.
God bless.
What if I'd been born a horse? What is your point? I was not born in the Middle East. I am not a Muslim. I know Jesus Christ is God's son – He was sent to save God's whole creation. If I didn't believe this I might as well be a Unitarian, pagan, atheist or Muslim. But God chose me. Not the other way around.
------
I know, I know.....the world revolves around you, and you can't possibly imagine how any other human would have a different life experience than you. You "know" Jesus Christ is God's son?! And yet you still ask me what my point is?!?! Holy cow man! The only reason you believe Jesus is the "only son of God", is because you grew up in a culture with christianity!!! That is the point. "IF" you were muslim(try and show just a hint of imagination), then you would not believe this. Selection of religion is somewhat arbitary. Incidentally, I'd say we're all children of God. But, God "chose you". Yes, of course. You're so very special. Good grief. Thanks for the entertainment today...
And all the little antichrists are soooooo concerned about those that haven't heard the good news??? What's wrong with this picture for these dirt ball dust bags?? They show EXTREME circular reasoning, which of course they ACCUSE the brethren of. Christians know who the accuser is. Instead of being perplexed about the evil in the world, they propagate it.
Knowing right from wrong helped them ZIP. So there's yer answer.
HotAirAce
So Topher, can you tell us which of the good citizens of Moore brought this upon their community, or is your god making them pay for other's sins?
---------
It pleasse God to see suffering and death.
Fr. Thomas Keating, creator of the Snowmass Intereligious Conferences and the Centering Prayer movement, talks about religious traditions and churches as a necessary social step to, and support of, personal spirituality and encounter. But he also says that, once one has experienced deep encounter, whether in mystical experience or NDE/OBE, it is important not to abandon one's church. Instead, we need to inform our church communities about this step from faith to the experience of personal encounter. Meanwhile, there are indeed direct challenges posed by mystics and NDEs to certain dogmatic aspects as both today's spirituality and our advancing scientific understanding of our Universe take us to a new Copernican moment in our understanding of who we are, and of what we're a part. Here's a link to the recounting of my own NDE. http://excelsisdeoomnibus.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/woods-walking-10/
Christians, get your names off any church rolls and go underground. The nasties are lustin' after them and they're fully leavened anyway.
@Colin "So, by your logic, there must have been 5 women at the tomb. John really scr.ewed up then when he says MAry MAgdelene went there alone. Nice try......."
@Chad "oh.. bad boy.. tried to sneak that "alone" in there
no
John does NOT say she went there alone.
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance
perhaps an example from real life will penetrate..but I doubt it..
Boosting morale for a city in shock and mourning, President Obama went to Massachusetts General Hospital today to visit victims of the Boston
now... did he go alone?
Are you bedridden, Chard?
The real Tom...............do a seacrh on google............for this article ........When Christians become a 'hated minority'
By John Blake, CNN
.it might be the beast.........666.?
We aren't alone, am I Chad? 🙂
Education....................Bill and nclaw441.............and faith the peach !
Moving forward CREATIONIST............chadieie too ............ you might want to take a blood test?
Scientists Find Genes Linked to Human Neurological Disorders in Sea Lamprey Genome
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130224142915.htm
Peace
Facts work .
May 21, 2013 at 11:02 am | Report abuse |
May 21, 2013 at 11:09 am | Report abuse |
Gospel of Chad:
(Updated list derived from history of Chad conversations.)
Atheism:
1. All atheists agree with everything Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins say, even if it is unrelated to atheism. Hawking and Dawkins disagree on free will, however, but you should ignore this conflict or any atheist who says they disagree.
2. All atheists agree with one another on everything even if it has nothing to do with atheism. See #1 for models from which you can derive all their beliefs.
3. The definition of atheist includes anything that any atheist I disagree with believes or anything I feel like tossing in there. Ignore any definitions in pesky places like dictionaries and philosophical encyclopedias.
4. If one atheist somewhere on the internet said something, then, since all atheists agree with him/her, I can use that randomly selected example as an argument to address all other atheists.
5. The definition of atheism includes not just materialism but strict deterministic materialism. Non-believers who might be Buddhists, believe in probabilistic physics, see consciousness as prior to the physical world, believe in, say, witchcraft aren’t really atheists.
6. No atheist has ever read the bible. I mean, obviously, they’d be Christians if they had, right? OK, so a few have proven to me – OK, multiple times – that they have read the bible. See #11 (just lie).
Free will:
7. All people who use the term “free will” really mean the same exact thing by that term, which matches my personal use of the term “free will” (unless backed into a corner, then I just declare all other meanings irrelevant)
8. Fatalism and determinism are the same thing. It has been pointed out to me that historically these terms have been used with different meanings, but I find it more convenient to make up my own definitions, as with atheism and free will.
In fact, I brilliantly argued “If a person is a determinist, how in the world does deterrence even come into the picture? Determinists believe in an ever marching set of deterministic outcomes based on an existing set of antecedent conditions. Those conditions march back to the origin of the universe, no way to change the past, so no way to change the future. (On April 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm)
After reading a bit more about fatalism and determinism I decided to change my tune to a claim that determinism leads to fatalism (and to pretend this was what I was saying all along). I’m sticking to reading easy pop philosophers, though, and selective websites on the topic as anything more complex makes my head hurt. I have read snippets from a couple of websites now so that ought to put me on par with people who’ve read dozens of books on the topic, understand neurobiology and have written on both the philosophical and cultural aspects of free will and people’s belief in the topic. Oh, yeah, I know what I’m talking about!
9. A determinist cannot believe that humans can change. This would, of course, mean that nothing can change. Which would mean…oh…crud…better put my head back up my ass.
10. A determinist cannot believe in punishing people for crimes. This is because…well…it doesn’t matter. Just keep repeating it.
Telling lies:
11. It is ethical to lie so long as it promotes Christian beliefs.
12. Speaking of telling lies, a really good way to do this is to rephrase what your opponent says and then keep repeating the misquote in hopes that he or she will get bored and leave your lie as the last statement. Then you win. You can do this either by rewording as a supposed paraphrase or pulling lines out of context and reordering them. God really loves this and gives you extra endurance to sit at the computer all day and keep repeating it.
13. One way to use this super endurance to your advantage is to keep posting the same questions over and over again even after they’ve been answered 50 times. Just pretend they haven’t been answered and act self-righteous about it. It’s really cool if you can ask this same thing on multiple threads and then claim it was never answered forcing people to waste time on the same thing over and over and over.
14. In particular don’t forget that whatever someone says you can respond with “What investigation have you done into…”. Especially good is to ask what investigation was done into the truth of the God of Israel. When the non-Christian comes back to ask how much research you did to prove other gods aren’t real answer “I don’t need to do any because I proved the God of Israel is real and that negates all other gods”. When asked how you proved that repeat the words “empty tomb” over and over until divine light shines on the souls of the heathens.
15. When they refuse to play your game or you don’t like the answer add some sarcasm, but use an emoticon to soften it so they’ll know your snide remarks are all in good fun.
16. Consider asking completely nonsensical questions that can’t even be understood, let alone answered. Best yet include something the person didn’t say as a premise. For example, you might ask an atheist opponent “You say you like murdering small children on Wednesdays, could you explain how this fits with your beliefs about string theory?” Then when your question is ignored accuse the person of avoidance and make up wild hypotheses as to why they are avoiding you.
17. Above all else keep asking questions while avoiding answering any yourself.
Science, math and psychology:
18. If one scientist says something that backs me, then I can assume all scientists agree with that statement.
19. If atheist scientists say something, even if it is the view of the majority of people in that science, it should be ignored. See #11.
20. Atheists are ruled by confirmation bias. I am free of it – it’s just great luck that everything I read and all the “data” around me confirm my strong religious convictions. See #19 on ignoring anything else.
21. Infinity = all finite numbers according to the Chad. Thirty or forty years of constraint is the same as eternal torment.
22. Rehabilitation and deterrence are the same thing. Yep…convincing a drug addict not to use drugs in case they are shot dead and getting them off the addiction would be the same by my wondrous Chad logic.
General truths about the CNN belief blog:
23. All non-believers are, by definition, idiots so you can use illogical arguments and they’ll just fall for it.
24. If I post a quote that has a few key words in it from our discussion I can claim it backs my point even if it actually says the exact opposite thing from what I’m claiming. Atheists, as mentioned above, are too dumb to notice. Best yet is to post a link or reference a book which actually says the opposite of what I’m saying and just assume no one will look at it.
25. There is a huge mass of fence sitters out there who are eagerly reading CNN blog comments in order to decide whether or not to believe in God.
26. I will personally save all those mentioned in # 25 because I, Chad, am super smart. I know this because I get away with all the above mentioned lies and manipulations. Sometimes people think they are pointing these things out but they really aren’t. Or the stupid atheist masses aren’t reading them anyway.
27. Phrase everything as if it’s a lecture so you look like you know what you’re talking about. See #23 about atheists being idiots and #24 about people not reading anything you post you’ll see that the silly atheists will fall for it every time. In particular they won’t look back to the earlier part of the discussion to see how I’m contradicting myself. This is very well aided by another tactic:
28. As soon as you make an ass of yourself break the conversation into a new thread. That way all the newcomers (see #25 on how they are waiting to have their souls saved) will not bother to read back and see how ignorant you are.
29. If someone points out to you that citing Wikipedia is not an adequate source for the discussion at hand you can always find a good undergraduate philosophy paper to cite instead..
30. Never question another Christian no matter how incorrect or offensive their position.
31. Just remember that you can define a term any way you want and you are always right!
Do not be afraid, Chad, did not pass the background check and does not have any guns, although he does have a fine collection of Bowie knives and machetes.
That is a false equivalence. It is expected that the POTUS has an entourage. John mentions MM in a context where it is clear that she is the only person at the tomb. According to you, this was the most important event in human history, the resurrection of JC.
Here is a better equivalence that might help….but I doubt it.
“We know the defendant shot the victim because MM saw him do it.” Now how many people saw him do it? There is no need to go on and say “and nobody else, if the context is such that the other three people would have been mentioned.
reading comprehension is not something they taught dorothy in first grade, though she says she was quite the genius.
There is Chadie...............where is the peach ?
http://www.ibtimes.com/atheists-fight-gideon-bibles-books-christopher-hitchens-richard-dawkins-georgia-state-parks-1271125
@Colin "That is a false equivalence. It is expected that the POTUS has an entourage. John mentions MM in a context where it is clear that she is the only person at the tomb."
@Chad "whoa.. quite a series of speculations there!
all fail..
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance
Boosting morale for a city in shock and mourning, President Obama went to Massachusetts General Hospital today to visit victims of the Boston
I went to the Monterrey Jazz Festival last year (Doesnt mention that his wife went as well..)
I know you want desperately need to create a contradiction, but do you honestly think that you'll succeed where countless thousands over the past two thousand years have failed?
The text simply doesnt say if anyone went with Mary
The text does not say Mary went alone.
Phrasing that kind of statement, when in fact more than one person went, is very common today.
QED
I Witnessed the crime against the name of the New York Mets last night... Between the bad pitching, nightmare relief, sloppy fielding and too much to eat, I left RFK last night feeling like I had been poisoned. Pounded would be an understatement. And by the wimpiest guy in our school. Massacred actually, 12- 4. I just hope we live. I can't decide if I should go to tonight's game, I may end up permanently damaged. I try to find a high note, but after what I saw last night, it is tough. Really tough. I can't decide if my lingering stomach ache is from the giant hot dog or from how painful the beating really was. Or the fact that our lead in the NL East is now as skinny as Nicole Ritchie when we need it to look more like Britney.
Please come back New York Mets, I miss you. - JILL GREENBERG
very common...
how can u tell when sambo/dodo murdock is posting?
The Jackdaw
When he is banging Mary.
lol
rectum sidearm tall building fetish girlfriend
blah, blah, fvcking blah – faith
"sam stone
blah, blah, fvcking blah – faith"
its widdle fatty sammy. yo girlfriend, what it is, yo?
rectum aching? sidearm sally
o, por baby
c u been workin hard. good girl.
If we have already learned to love ourselves, others, and God with all our hearts and souls, then we really can do nothing wrong.
Why do I have to love god?
Thats a bunch of garbage. You are wasting your love on a diety that does not exist and people do terrable things out of love every day. Get your head out of the sand.
And I also don't think one can "learn to love".,,,,
@VidiSensiVici
You said, "If we have already learned to love ourselves, others, and God with all our hearts and souls, then we really can do nothing wrong."
Loving imaginary creatures is not required for, and often detrimental to, loving others.
Blessed are the Cheesemakers sayz,
"Why do I have to love god?"
So you can be schmarter than a plain ol' dust ball?? Why do you ask? Why do you ask here?? Why cheesie??
I bet you "love" yourself often.
Religion should not be taken too seriously. It is a decent source of moral guidance; all religions are that is. But taking it literally and insisting that going to church and being pious is going to make you immortal and better than other people is kind of missing the point. Too much will poison your way of thinking.
sam the sham runs like a cheetah. watch.
"decent source of moral guidance"
really? how so, sidearm santa? lol
The Jackdaw
Religion should not be taken too seriously. It is a decent source of moral guidance; all religions are that is. But taking it literally and insisting that going to church and being pious is going to make you immortal and better than other people is kind of missing the point. Too much will poison your way of thinking."
@Jackdaw – religion "is a decent source of moral guidance". Really???? Such as slavery, ra-pe, and genocide is okay? That gay people are abominations? That black people are inferior? That women are inferior? That you'll be rewarded if you die a martyr in Holy jihad?????
Religion is a horrible source of moral guidance.
People have evolved to have an inherent moral compa-ss. Religion, more often than not, messes with that compa-ss.
I said it CAN be a source. There are a few gems of insite among the mounds of garbage. And most of that is misinterprited intentionally to fit the needs of those who run around with it. As I said, I'm referring to all religions, not just the shallow western ones.
faith: still on yer knees, pleasing the boys?
@Jackdaw; Sorry, but you said it "IS", not it "CAN" be. That is why I took issue. Let me ask this: is there any moral teaching that must by necessity be conveyed only via religion? For example, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" does not require the trappings of religion.
@ Magic Underpants:
Nope! I do not believe it necessary, it’s just there and not 100% wretched, just mostly wretched.
dodo,
this is what i mean. is stupidity required for nazism?
"Richard Cranium
Vic
Either god has foreknowledge, or men have free will. It is an impossibility for both to be true."
that's right chrome dome. genius at work.
I guess the reason you lol so much is that no one else has a clue what you're talking about.
Tom, I'm beginning to suspect the interminable lol's are an homage to alter ego.
Does anyone have any idea what the idiot's talking about, midwest? What is it with copying and pasting others' posts in a reply and responding with nothing at all, or 'lol', or 'c u p', or 'dodo', or 'nazi'?
Is it some teenybopper who's being home-schooled because of mental illness?
Just a gut feeling that this is lol??'s twisted idea of parody. Nothing concrete, just a strong feeling.
Don't trust your feelings, rail. Ain't me.
faith is just knockin' r cranius' degree from the Frankfurt School, which anybody with a bwain would do.
Not buyin' it, lol??. Your admiration for disjointed, delusional ramblings ( complete with the childish w's in place of r's ) points in one direction only.
Possible versus Impossible.
If I presented you with a small opaque bag and said it contained an unknown number of dice and asked you the following question.
Is it impossible to roll a 21 with the dice in this bag?
The answer of course is NO. There might be 4 dice. With 4 dice I could roll any number between 4 and 24 so 21 is indeed possible.
How about if I ask is it POSSIBLE to roll 21 with the dice in the bag? The answer is YES but here the situation is conditional. If there are only 3 dice then in this case rolling a 21 is indeed impossible.
The idea here is that while it is OK to say that something is not impossible it doesn't naturally follow that it is possible. What IS possible is conditional on extra information not required when we say something IS NOT impossible.
Thus it is not impossible that a god exists. But we require more data to conclude that it is possible that a god exists.
Tracy is great
Matt too....never miss that program.
If I roll the 3 dice twice or the 1 die 4 times, it's possible.
Just sayin'.
WhenCowsAttack
You only get one toss of the dice.
Bending the rules is a Christian ploy. Just see how they jump through hoops to make their square Bible pegs fit round holes.
Data can only be gathered if the right methodology is used. Didn't someone say "God doesn't play dice with the universe"? You're dice analogy is fundamentally flawed because you are using a logical argument derived from the material world in the assumption that logical proofs apply to that which is unknown. Logic is certainly one tool that has been used to study and understand the phenomenal world but in order to engage that which is unknown for the purpose of extracting data some consideration must be given to choosing a suitable methodology. Unconventional proof requires unconventional methodologies and therefore, some experimentation may be necessary. Before plunging into an unknown, it would be best to develop a theoretical approach to the object of study. In this context a review of literature is generally done which would include subjective experience as well as any partial proofs that have been suggested. Assimilation of the whole would eventually suggest a pathway to approach the investigation. Since God is a transcendent concept, and the quest is to explore that which is transcendent, anything that has been reported to enable transcendent experiences in a raw review of world literature might provide a plausible theoretical approach. When you exclude drug induced experiences or mental disease you will soon find that the concept of transcendent experience is well known and that there are various means to explore it. There is no simplistic argument that can be made to prove or disprove the existence of God because the dynamic of the entire concept of God is inherently infinite. The only way to approach it is from the bottom up, i.e., starting with the subjective experience, defining the physiological effects as far as possible, examining the behavioral changes and emotional outcomes in human subjects, understanding the paradigm of spirit and matter which includes the concept of body and mental energy, experimentation with subtle forces that entrain and transform consciousness into a reliable and repeatable channel of information gathering, and then finally building a schema or schematic representation of that which was previously unknown which would then serve as a platform to launch investigations into deeper questions.