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June 11th, 2013
01:35 PM ET
Pope Francis: `Gay lobby' exists inside VaticanBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - Pope Francis said a “gay lobby” exists inside the Vatican, a surprising disclosure from a pope who has already delivered his share of stunners, and a resurrection of church conflicts that had bedeviled his predecessor's papacy. “In the Curia,” Francis said, referring to Catholicism’s central bureaucracy, “there are holy people. But there is also a stream of corruption.” “The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there,” Francis continued. “We need to see what we can do.” READ MORE: The pope said what? Six stunners from Francis Hints that the Holy See contained a network of gay clergy surfaced last year in reports about a series of embarrassing leaks to Italian journalists. The "Vatileaks" scandal factored in Pope Emeritus Benedict XIV's shocking decision to resign earlier this year, according to some church experts, as it impressed upon the 86-year-old pontiff that the modern papacy requires a vigorous and watchful presence. Francis' enigmatic comments came during a meeting Sunday with CLAR, the Latin American and Caribbean Confederation of Religious Men and Women, who head Catholic communities of priests, sisters and monks. The Chilean website Reflection and Liberation, which focuses on Catholic theology, first reported Francis’ remarks. The Catholic blog Rorate Caeli translated the report into English. A Vatican spokesman told CNN, "The Holy See Press Office has no official comment on the private meeting." Gay and lesbian Catholic groups did not immediately respond to requests for comment. The Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests said, "structure, not sexuality, is the real issue." "The church is a monarchy. Monarchs are unaccountable. So many monarchs are corrupt. This is true in both secular and religious institutions," SNAP said in a statement. Other Catholics counseled caution about reading too much into the pope's remarks. "We don't have any explanation of what 'gay lobby' means," said Rocco Palmo, a Vatican watcher who runs Whispers in the Loggia, a website on Catholic news and church politics. "Naturally, some in the church will try to polarize or interpret this, but as the rest of us aren't pope, we still have to get further explanation," Palmo added. Church experts say the Chilean report rings true since the wide-ranging conversation centers on concerns that Francis has made touchstones of his nascent papacy. In contrast to the buttoned-up Benedict, Francis has earned an early reputation for speaking off the cuff, often ditching prepared remarks in favor of more informal conversations. On Friday, Francis nixed his “boring” speech and instead took questions from young Catholic students. Asked by a little girl if he wanted to be pope, Francis laughed and said that only someone who “doesn’t love himself” would want the position. Last month, the pope sparked a worldwide debate by suggesting that atheists might be able to earn a spot in heaven. "He has said some things that would turn Benedict whiter than the papal vestments," Palmo joked. Francis told the Catholic leaders on Sunday to focus on the poor, that the Vatican must be reformed, and joked that whoever wagered on his long-shot election as pope “won a lot, of course.” But his comments on the "gay lobby" are likely to gain the most attention, especially in the West, where Catholic leaders have been mounting a fierce fight against same-sex marriage. After Benedict announced his resignation in February, reports circulated that a “gay lobby” had forced his hand. Cardinals appointed by the former pope to find the source of the leaks investigated high-level Vatican clergy involved in homosexual affairs who might have been vulnerable to blackmail, according to La Repubblica, a leading Italian newspaper. La Repubblica reported that the cardinals found evidence of a “gay lobby” within the Vatican but gave few details about it. "Some high level clergy are exposed to the `external influence' – what we would call blackmail – of lay people to whom they are connected through ties of a `worldly nature,'" La Repubblica wrote. The Vatican blasted the newspaper reports as “unverified, unverifiable and completely false.” Francis is one of the few Catholic leaders to have seen the Vatican report. The so-called Vatileaks scandal led to Benedict's butler, Paolo Gabriele, being convicted on charges last year of leaking private papers from the the pope's private office. He was sentenced to 18 months in prison. 'Gay lobby' behind pope's resignation? Not likely John Allen, CNN’s senior Vatican analyst, has said it would have been odd if the Vatican report had not considered the possibility that "insiders leading a double life," including sexually active clergy, might be vulnerable to pressure to betray the pope. “It seems a stretch, however, to suggest this is the real reason," behind Benedict's resignation, Allen said. In one of his first actions as pope, Francis created a council of eight cardinals, including Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston, to offer suggestions on reforming the Vatican. “The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the congregations preceding the Conclave,” Francis said, referring to the meetings that led up to his election in March. “I also asked for it.” But Francis said that he cannot promote the reform himself. “I am very disorganized,” he said, adding, “I have never been good at this.” Instead, the pope said, he is relying on his eight appointed cardinals to move the reforms forward. CNN's Richard Greene contributed to this report.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I think he is confusing a "lobby" for a "club".
Shame on those that discriminate or protest against gay people and thier seking equality.
http://www.advocate.com/news/world-news/2013/05/26/watch-russian-police-arrest-dozens-lgbt-activists-moscow-pride
Shame on you for having an unclean way of life.
No Truthful, you are the shameful one. Your Jesus weeps for you.
CNN, why are you bringing SNAP into this? Why are you conflating gay priests with the crimes of pedophiles which have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH EACH OTHER. To unnecessarily conflate the two is about the most offensive thing I can imagine you doing with this news story.
Any chance to flog that molestation horse, right? Stay class, CNN!
Gay=Pedophiles
They are both sick pervisions.
"Truth".
The TRUTH, which you apparently are clueless about, is that pedophiles can be gays or heteros.
The TRUTH, which you apparently are clueless about, is that more girls are molested by heteros than boys by gays.
Leave it to a numbskull to come up with "pervisions".
I agree with Truth, it is a sick perversion.
Truthful,
You and Truth need to skip the HYPOCRISY. When heteros no longer engage in any perversions, you will BEGIN to have some credibility. Until then, it's all hypocrisy.
If you're looking for hypocrisy you just need to look toward gay and atheists.
Observer
One third of sexual assaults are against boys and 92% of those perpetrators were homosexuals. If you consider only 3% of the population is male homosexual then you must call it as it is . 3% of the population is responsible for virtually all boys raped in our country.
Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984):
fred, you can find a refutation of your logic here: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm.
fred, you should also read: http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html. To summarize, Freund's research actually states the opposite of what you claim.
Want to kill your gay coworker? No problem. We have a verse for that.
Another nail in the lid of the coffin of the RCC !!! Once again, run Catholics before you are buried in the crumbling churches of "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) the eats away at the foundations of all religions.
An example:
AND THE INFAMOUS ANGELIC CONS CONTINUE TO WREAK STUPIDITY UPON THE RELIGIOUS WORLD:
Joe Smith had his Moroni. (As does M. Romney)
"Latter-day Saints like M. Romney also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."
Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;
Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tin-kerbell" got around).
Jesus and his family had/has Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented. (As does BO and his family)(As do Biden and Ryan)
The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.
Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie/horn-blowing thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.
Wowzee wowzee wuwu....
John 15:26-27
New International Version (NIV)
The Work of the Holy Spirit
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Sue, I a m wrong often. But God isn't.
The Apostles' Creed 2013 (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
(References used are available upon request.)
Austin
But what makes you believe so absolutely that you know what the Spirit's truth is? I could probably gather a dozen of you guys together into a room, all of you believing that you know the Spirit's "truth", and none of you would agree on everything. Face it, it's all just your personal opinions that your egos elevate to divine communication status. One big delusion of personal grandeur born out of mistaking some of your thoughts for contact with a god. Sad!
God isn't wrong, except when he created humans in his own image who so displease him.
Right, you are – God is ALWAYS WRONG!
And he may have messed up a little bit putting us in a universe that's winding down to oblivion.
... oblivion – actually that fits well with the Christian narrative
"the best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole.” – Arno Penzias (Nobel Laureate) in Schaefer, Henry F., Science & Christianity, p.49
Sue, I have data as evidence and proof of a prophetic supernatural God, and I cannot lie to y self or others about it. I have a responsibility to be honest and share. Furthermore if I am not a coward I would proclaimed the reality hat Gos supernaturally ga e me faith t
secular,
Christians believe God create man with free will. Thus man has the capacity to please or displease.
My heros in this life are the people the stories of the bible are about. And God is awesome. And he has interviened with man as a way to perpetuate our life in Him.
He is worthy of praise. He is faithful to forgive.
jboom
I think it is highly unlikely that god created man. I also think that forcing belief with the threat of hell or banishment from god's grace is coersion.
Secular,
For what its worth, I can respect your belief. Certain metaphorical language within the New Testament, taken literally, has created a false Gospel taught by many in the west that has led many away from Christ. Unfortunately, that is not the gospel preached by the traditional & ancient Christian Church.
should read 'fortunately'
jboom
For what it's worth – thankyou, and I respect you too much to respect your silly beliefs. I can accept that you believe, but I can't respect your belief.
In hope of getting you to at least drop the adjestive 'silly', I would recommend the video "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" (1 hr video at amazon).
As I said elsewhere in this forum, its not a god of the gaps argument. Its not a 'can't explain it so it must be god' argument.
ID? Seriously...
The earth is in a cosmic shooting gallery, 80 tons of cosmic debris fall an the earth each year.
Life cannot exist in most of the universe. Most places kill life instantly. Not exactly hospitable.
On the earth volcanos, tornados, tsunamis kill millions of people.
The human eye can detect only a small part of the electomagnetic specturm.
Gasses that we can't smell can kill us.
There are many diseases that can kill us.
We have a pleasure center in the middle of a sewage system. (se.x referance)
Dolphins eat and breathe through different holes, so not an impossible design but we eat and breathe through the same hole, causing death by choking.
I could go on but it seems to me that the universe is hardly intelligently designed.
Austin: God is not wrong because god does not exist. Have another drink, boy
Austin: How do you know that you are not wrong as to the existence or the nature of god?
Austin has data....file cabinets and file cabinets full of PROOF of the god of the babble. Seems only fair, since babble is all we get out of him. He will not show anyone his data. He is a coward, and a liar....along with his ilk Gopher and Chard
Acutally, I'd aleady figured out that Austin is psychic! It was only his mistake the he attributed his visions to the wrong supernatural agency...
And that's the problem with these kinds of "proof"...
Secular, You are assuming I am trying to convince you of intelligent design. I was merely suggesting that watching the video "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" (1 hr video at amazon) might result in you dropping the adjective 'silly' from your prior post.
As I said elsewhere in this forum, its not a god of the gaps argument. Its not a 'can't explain it so it must be god' argument.
The Vatican needs to understand that they been gay people sense GOD created the world. There's lots of GAY priests in the any church around the world. But "so called religions" can't and won't except reallity. It doesn't say any where in the bible that a priest can't get married or be gay. MAN likes to lie and mistranslate the bible to their benifits and sets their own rules. GOD has no part in this. Like i said millions times over and over again i would rather kiss Martin Luther King hand then the so called pope. Becasue the vatican has many hittden secrets and lies. I believe in GOD strongly and I've always had faith in him. Becasue at the end GOD is not going to save the vatican to any natural disasters.
OK wazzup pop ? ... gays get to go to heaven too just like atheists !!!
The bible talks about the time of the end in Matthew..."..when you catch sight of the disgusting thing in the holy place". Welcome to the beginning of the end.The end of False Religion is at hand.
Well if they will let the church be openly gay maybe they will leave the little boys alone. Well we can hope.......
Your approach is doa
No... If they are gay, there will be more of it. What kind of priests do you think were molesting boys in the first place? Gay priests molest, gay priests don't pay attention to the ten commandments, gay priests are the problem, not the solution.
FEAR, SHAME and GUILT and COVER IT ALL UP, a standard response across the board with the "walking with god clerics" now forever walking with the common man–
Obviously ordination in any religion is not assurance of good behavior !!!!!
Neither is coronation!!! e.g. Henry VIII, King David.
Neither is marriage as 50% of those men convicted of pedophilia are married.
Neither is being elected president of the USA!! e.g. Billy "I did not have s-ex with that girl" Clinton, John "Marilyn Monroe" Kennedy".
Neither is possessing super athletic skill!!! e.g. Tiger "I am so sorry for getting caught" Woods.
Neither is being an atheist or pagan or football coach since pedophilia is present in all walks of life.
If someone is guilty of a crime in this litany of "neithers" they should or should have been penalized as the law dictates to include jail terms for pedophiliacs (priests, rabbis, evangelicals, boy scout leaders, married men/women, football coaches), divorce for adultery (Clinton, Kennedy, Woods), jail terms for obstruction of justice (Paterno et al, Clinton, Cardinal Law) or child endangerment (Paterno in abstentia, Sandusky et al, Lynn) and the death penalty or life in prison for murder ("Kings David and Henry VIII).
Being gay and being a pedophile are not one and the same. It is believed that many/most pedophiles do not have a definite or mature orientation. If you don't accept that, there are many more "hetero" pedophiles than "gay" pedophiles. But don't let facts get in the way of hating gays.
Do you believe bigfoot exists? If not, why don't you believe?
That is the same reason I don't believe gods exist. Think about it. Both creatures are equally absurd to believe in without supporting evidence. At least bigfoot hunters aren't inherently against gay marriage.
Hairy butt
But I can understand how the beauty of the sciences – laws of physics, Einstein's relativity, Quantum physics, multiverse, modern day findings in microbiology, DNA, etc – can be created without bigfoot.
Created without God, not so much.
@jboom,
If we are just inventing facts without any proof, then why can't bigfoot create physics? It makes no difference what you think the universe SHOULD be. The universe just is the way it is. It is our job to discover how it is, not tell it how it is. Maybe 10 gods created the universe. Maybe it was a spider. Maybe it was a black hole. There are an infinite number of maybe's. You can't just pick one and declare it the winner for no reason. That is absurd.
The Bible is silent on gay marriage so your argument falls flat.
Gay marriage is probably no different than the majority of marriages that do not honor God. It is better to be right before God than to be married.
jboom
The agrurment from incredibility is not a valid argument. Just because you can't believe something does not mean it is not true.
fred,
"Gay marriage is probably no different than the majority of marriages that do not honor God."
God's idea of marriage is that it should be FORCED onto people.
Skip all the HYPOCRISY. You DON'T believe or support all of what God said about marriage.
@fred
So you don't think many Christians have a hatred for gays and gay marriage? That is absurd. Many polls have shown this to be a fact.
To those who hate the Bible is clear in that hate towards another is sin. So you are basically saying Christians sin which is a main theme in the New Testament and in the Old Testament the Chosen Ones broke the Law constantly. Nothing new here. The purpose of the Law was to expose the sinful nature of man.
Your polls simply validate another truth from the Bible.
Maybe the material universe existed for all eternity and is thus uncreated (eastern religions).
Maybe the material universe created itself out of nothing (Steven Hawking, atheists).
Maybe an uncreated Divinity created the universe (Christians, Jews, Muslims).
All three are matters of faith. However, evidence is really in favor of a rational intelligence behind creation.
For starters, see "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" (1 hr video at amazon), which essentially puts the ball in the court of materialists to show how their metaphysics are not matters of faith. And no its not a god of the gaps argument. Its not a 'can't explain it so it must be god' argument.
last post in reply to Jeff's bigfoot remark
fred,
The Golden Rule was what "the law and the prophets is all about".
Remember that the next time you HYPOCRITICALLY pick on gays while ignoring the FAR BIGGER problem of Christian ADULTERERS.
Until the mentally ill delusional believers prove that their so far unfounded gods exist, the ball remains in their court.
Not to mention the 700,000+ believers who have abortions each year in the USA, with none known to have been thrown out of their cult for breaking their charlatan's rules.
hotair,
OK, but give them a chance.
Watch the video and see if you hold as strongly to your atheism.
"Unlocking the mystery of Life" instant video at amazon
HotAirAce
Gays are not kicked out because they are gay. The gays at our church prefer churches that take the Jefferson Bible approach to controversial issues so they leave on their own. Those who remain stay sin free to the same extent the rest of us do (not very often)
so, fred is speaking for god now?
apparently freddie is yet another pompous fool who thinks they know the mind of god
jboom: how do you make the logical leap from a creator to a "god"?
Does it take a doctorate in theology to understand what the pope said?
A doctorate in theology is an oxymoron.
HeavenSent,,
Pregnancy requires an egg and sperm. The s-xual orientation of the contributors is not critical.
So it is TRUE or FALSE?
Observer, I'm not the one you need to ask why the aversion exists.
HeavenSent,
It's a simple TRUE or FALSE question.
Stumped?
That question is questionable.
Austin
What is the answer? Are you TOTALLY STUMPED, too?.
Observer, male producing live sperm(s) plus female producing live egg(s) is true for your answer.
HeavenSent,
That's right. The s-xual orientation of the contributors is NOT CRITICAL.
See? You may have learned something tonight.
Observer, I never answered the latter part of your question.
HeavenSent
"Observer, I never answered the latter part of your question."leazse
Are you actually admitting that you are that INCREDIBLY IGNORANT about biology?
Please take a beginner's class in Biology 101 or read "Biology for Dummies". How embarrassing for you!
Observer, I don't know if you were born to hear this song.
In the year twenty-five twenty-five
If man is still alive
If woman can survive, they my find
In the year thirty-five thirty-five
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth
Tell no lies
Ev'rything you think, do and say
Is in the pill you took today
In the year forty-five forty-five
You ain't gonna need your teeth
Won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to chew
Nobody's gonna look at you
In the year fifty-five fifty-five
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you
In the year sixty-five sixty-five
You won't need no husband
Won't need no wife
You'll pick your son
Pick your daughter, too
From the bottom of a long glass tube
In the year seventy-five ten
If God's a-comin'
He oughta' make it by then
Maybe he'll look around himself, and say
"Guess it's time for the Judgement Day"
In the year eighty-five ten
God is gonna shake his mighty head
he'll either say,
"I'm pleased where man has been"
Or tear it down, and start again
In the year ninety-five ninety-five
I'm kind a wonderin'
If man is gonna be alive
He's taken ev'rything
this old earth can give
and he ain't put back nothin'
Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what? He never knew
Now man's reign is through
But through eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday
In the year twenty-five twenty-five
If man is still alive
If woman can survive they may find . . .
HeavenSent,
Read the words to the far-better and successful song "Imagine" by John Lennon.
Now, what are you going to do about your shocking lack of knowledge of simple biology?
Tommy Tom 101 for dummies, using multiple handles makes you look like a tryout for Sybil.
HeavenSent,
Are you going to take a beginner's class in biology or read a beginner's book so you won't be so clueless next time?
It's shocking that an adult knows so little about "the birds and the bees". Put the Bible down and read a science book.
Tommy Tom, cough, Observer, all your bullying techniques to get people over to your side of lies is a waste of time. Yours, as well as others. Understand one truth, many people wouldn't stoop to dealing, never mind, buying into your level of manipulation. The reality is, your technique only works with folks that live in ego.
HeavenSent,
You have made a total FOOL of yourself, not once but twice tonight. First of all you are clueless about basic biology and secondly you are a LIAR (so much for following the Ten Commandments) claiming I use multiple names.
I'll leave your embarrassment here so you can study basic biology and explain to God why you LIE.
Hopefully, tomorrow you will be smarter and much more honest. So much for your integrity today.
Tom, you proved yourself to be a liar. Sadly, lying is all you know. Lying and manipulating is your way of life. Placing the blame on others is why you remain spiritually stunted. Narcissism: Denial of the True Self. Alexander Lowen (Author) "life devoid of emotions is beyond imagination".
P.S. Have you figured out the acronym definition for BAITER.
Thank God we have a Pope who has the backbone to take on the gay fornicators.
With the thieves inside the temple itself, it is time to clean house and eliminate the spreading
cancer with a scalpel and a prayer.
Go get them Pope Francis, we've got your back on this one.
Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Moslems and Mormons know that gay coitus is a sin.
It is time to defend the family against filth.
Hey, Elmer Gantry, want to know something? You're full of crap. Shove your "gay coitus". You sound retarded.
Being gay is not a sin anymore than having blue eyes is a sin.
Fear is the mind killer. Douglas is pitifully afraid.
Some people will never get that memo, SHfO. Thankfully, they are a dying breed.
Thank God we have a fornicating Poe who's got the Pope's back.
Right on Doug!
"time to clean house and eliminate the spreading
cancer with a scalpel and a prayer."
Is this a suggestion to kill gay people? Not a very Christian wish.
When should this be done? At birth? Because gays are born gay.
Some people's fantasies are just...sick.
It is quite likely Pope-a-Dope Frankie is gay and intends to allow priests to come out of the closet.
Your hate is far more filthy. Funny how you ignore all parts of your great book about loving others and not judging. I'll bet there will be far more gays in Heaven before you ever get there.
I cannot decide whether Doogie is a troll, or a closet queen
Even the Pope admits there are gay lobbyists inside the Vatican. How that can be if the most holy of men are certainly expected to follow the word of God? You see how this religious argument is starting to become a house of cards as humans gain more knowledge and enlightenment? Love it.
Satan wants you to believe you are nothing but an animal. Do that and he will take over from there.
Evolutionist call themselves to be human, but believe themselves to be animals. secular, self centered by nature, just hindu lost cause.
The Bible says Satan fooled God into destroying most of Job's family and possessions to win a bet. He won.
Satan's minions ensure the fool buy into their lies of evolution.
As usual Observer, you have it backwards. It was satan destroying Job, loosing his bet with God that Job would buckle under pressure and denounce God. Job never did. As usual, God is the winning team.
HeavenSent,
God's supporters believe the world is only thousands of years old. Talk about lies!
Suffer much do the children by their mentor's own doing.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
HeavenSent,
God let Job's family and possessions get ruined. He came out the loser here. How HEARTLESS can you get?
I thought that Satan was supposed to be a flatterer, corrupting people by stroking their egos? How is the switch from seeing yourself as modelled after the most perfect being imaginable to being just another creature living on the planet, sharing common ancestors with the rest, a play on people's egos? Seriously, that argument is exactly backwards.
It's you believers who have elevated yourselves above the rest of life on this planet, who imagine yourself in this special relationship with the most powerful being imaginable, and who believe that this being wants to be close to you forever. I can't think of a way to make yourselves mores self-important than that.
Why are Lyell and Hutton taking credit for the theory of uniformitarianism, when the theory of uniformitarianism was prophesied in 2 peter
Humans are animals! We're primates.
It is also written that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day in the kingdom domains of God.
lionlylamb
"It is also written that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day in the kingdom domains of God."
Yep. Apparently God is clueless about how long it takes the earth to rotate ONE TIME.
Austin – did you really think the early spammers didn't know how to ward off rational inquiry with fear to go along with the promised rewards? Oh how the masses fell in love with the fine print.
Austin
Still, the flood did come in Noah's lifetime, as promised in that story. 2 Peter was written later than most of the other NT books, so it's understandable that the author wanted to address this disappointment, but Jesus' promises did go unfulfilled during his lifetime, and continued to go unfulfilled through the next several hundred generations, and counting. This is a huge difference, yes? Why shouldn't people be skeptical?
Lionly lamb, can we get the commentary from you on that verse?
First off, the holy spirit is a sanctifying spirit that bears the truth, if it's true. Which it is, as He does bear the truth supernaturally
Second, prophecies are no subprime to a God who always was prophetic. He is risen, and His promises are being carried out. A kingdom is forming. He is calling out aphis kingdom. And so his promises can not be fulfilled until His spiritual seed is fully ripened. You are presently being called
Observer, why do you always go backwards when you lose? Remember, I told you about the 3 earth and 3 heaven ages in 2 Peter 3.
2 Peter. Ha. Biblical scholars can't even agree on who the author was.
unfulfilled promises?
Do you refer to his second coming?
HeavenSent,
It's a riot that believers have to pretend words don't mean what they do so that Bible passages won't look so ignorant.
A "DAY" is defined to be the 24-hour period that it takes the earth to rotate ONE TIME. Check a dictionary. PRETENDING that period is THOUSANDS of years just shows how desperate you are to make EXCUSES.
Austin method of Biblical validation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YIj4rLYo0c
Things we haven't experienced that we can count on...........being forgiven at judgment.
@Austin
"He does bear the truth supernaturally"
If Satan is trying to pass something off as "truth" he'd be communicating supernaturally as well, right? So the question remains: How can you be sure that you have the actual "truth" and not a Satanic lie? I don't know if Satan is real, but I do know that you are wrong in many ways, so maybe you have been listening to the wrong guy all along.
Magnus you are actually an animal...sounds like your satan is telling the real truth after all..
Observer, because you believe satan's lies is why you have it backwards.
HeavenSent,
What is the definition of a "day"?
You should be able to handle this. Use a dictionary if you need.
Islam.. you appear to be a few centuries behind other humans. even your christian friends..but heres a secret to share.. you are an animal, and also a human. I expect that if you look hard enough you will see no difference between an muslim human, and a Jewish human, or a christian human, or an atheist human. I hope that some day you will awake from your nightmare and walk with humanity again.
Austin
God forgiving you after you die is only a promise invented by men. Nobody knows what happens because nobody that was actually dead has ever reported what they saw. "Near death" doesn't cut it. Those people only appeared to die for a short time. They were never really completely dead.
Observer, cough, Tommy Tom, be grateful for the Jews and Christian that let you know the calendar is after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
HeavenSent,
Yep. Today is Wednesday, named after the God Woden. Tomorrow is Thursday, named after the God Thor. Ooops!
Tom, cough, Observer, Sybil, some day you'll stop listening to the lies in the toy room and come over to the true info sites.
HeavenSent,
Trying to change the subject fools no one but yourself. If you are accusing me of using multiple names (like "Tom"), you are a LIAR and God doesn't like LIARS. Read the Bible some day, as well as a basic biology book.
observer,
"... make excuses."
Consider the original Hebrew. And the writings of the early Church Fathers. They wrote in similar language. An 'old earth' interpretation of Genesis is not new.
Observer, cough, Tommy Tom, that's her gift. Matty knows the bottom line. She keeps on coming. LOL. Amateur.
Austin, by the way, great post.
Amen.
HeavenSent,
Pray that God doesn't judge you on whether you LIE or not. You'll be headed to hell If he does.
Get some sleep. Read a biology book in the morning and worry about your fate for lying. Good luck.
Who? Is he a character in Harry Potter?
Observer, cough Tommy Tom, cough wanna be or is it, have to be Sybil. I already posted my answer that I know you, I see right through you. I survived folks like you.
Tom, you proved yourself to be a liar. Sadly, lying is all you know. Lying and manipulating is your way of life. Placing the blame on others is why you remain spiritually stunted. Narcissism: Denial of the True Self. Alexander Lowen (Author) "life devoid of emotions is beyond imagination".
P.S. Have you figured out the definition for BAITER? No man can help you. Only God can save you if you ask Him. I'm praying for you that you will seek His help. God Bless.
knowing him is intimacy
in to me he sees
and loves me
a love i never new
his love changes all things
life begins
takes some of his kids 4rvr 2 begin to realize we r not hallucinating. nothin compares 2 his love. many of us only dreamed of something like it. many stopped by end of childhood
very hard 4 some 2 get it
A Jesus fetish. Sick.
That was great!
That is gross. Nobody should be sexually fixated on Jesus.
Oh yeah, now the Poop is going to say that all the child molestations were caused by gay men instead of just sick priests. ROFL! He obviously doesn't know a hint of psychology...gay men aren't attracted to children, they prefer men like themselves. Most cases of pedophila can be traced right back to a straight, sick individual.
Oh, and on the side, of course he's doing this since he was so angry at Argentina for legalizing gay marriage. Just goes to show that a Poop is a poop.
Do you mean, priests are not men?
Pope Francis hasn't said a word suggesting that gay = pedophile. Please don't suggest that he has.
c, difficult 2 surprise him with any topic. he invented secks and wants us to be thrilled with it. even says it is analogous 2 our relationship wit him. we b his bride. husbands to love wives as jeeeeeeeeebuuuuuuuuus luves you. awesome mystery and beauty. gave us ultimate pleasure and likened it 2 being one with him. sure enough. gaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwd nod his stuff
You need to commit suicide.
According to Christians, Jesus never even *had* sex; therefore, it is completely ridiculous to speculate that he invented something he never experienced.
What hath texting wrought...
Then why do many animal species take part in recreational (non-procreational) se.x? Seems to me an odd thing to give animals that same feeling of the love of christ (which is BIZARRE by the way = equating se.xual bliss w/the indwelling of god).
Do you know the best way to get a nun pregnant? Dress her up as an altar boy.
from but t s ex?
c, he sort a invented secks
thats good.
Jesus, you mean? Jesus invented sex?
Try that again in English.
Wait on it. Let's find out what secks is before we go any further with faith.
come on Tom it obviously takes two se.xual organs, that would be male and female. That is the definition.
Jesus most certainly did not invent sex. What an absurd notion.
no, austin, it b incredible
Austin,
Basic Biology 101. Pregnancy requires an egg and sperm. The s-xual orientation of the contributors is not critical.
Austin: incorrect.
Observer, excuses, excuses while having to pull in the op.posite s3x contributor to complete the equation.
Austin, two sexual organs? You mean you don't have a complete set?
Tom, Tom, the Other One, you're forgetting the equation that it requires 2 opposite s3xual organs to be fruitful and multiply.
HeavenSent,
Still TOTALLY STUMPED?
Yeah Tom, Tom, did you forget that? What on earth is wrong with you? sarcasm off
I think it's fascinating that you think sexual organs are opposed to one another. Cooperation is the key, HeavenSent.
Like clockwork Tommy, you place the blame on the wrong party. Can't Ty for playing, Sybil.