June 11th, 2013
01:35 PM ET
Pope Francis: `Gay lobby' exists inside Vatican
By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
(CNN) - Pope Francis said a “gay lobby” exists inside the Vatican, a surprising disclosure from a pope who has already delivered his share of stunners, and a resurrection of church conflicts that had bedeviled his predecessor's papacy.
“In the Curia,” Francis said, referring to Catholicism’s central bureaucracy, “there are holy people. But there is also a stream of corruption.”
“The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there,” Francis continued. “We need to see what we can do.”
READ MORE: The pope said what? Six stunners from Francis
Hints that the Holy See contained a network of gay clergy surfaced last year in reports about a series of embarrassing leaks to Italian journalists.
The "Vatileaks" scandal factored in Pope Emeritus Benedict XIV's shocking decision to resign earlier this year, according to some church experts, as it impressed upon the 86-year-old pontiff that the modern papacy requires a vigorous and watchful presence.
Francis' enigmatic comments came during a meeting Sunday with CLAR, the Latin American and Caribbean Confederation of Religious Men and Women, who head Catholic communities of priests, sisters and monks.
The Chilean website Reflection and Liberation, which focuses on Catholic theology, first reported Francis’ remarks. The Catholic blog Rorate Caeli translated the report into English.
A Vatican spokesman told CNN, "The Holy See Press Office has no official comment on the private meeting."
Gay and lesbian Catholic groups did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
The Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests said, "structure, not sexuality, is the real issue."
"The church is a monarchy. Monarchs are unaccountable. So many monarchs are corrupt. This is true in both secular and religious institutions," SNAP said in a statement.
Other Catholics counseled caution about reading too much into the pope's remarks.
"We don't have any explanation of what 'gay lobby' means," said Rocco Palmo, a Vatican watcher who runs Whispers in the Loggia, a website on Catholic news and church politics.
"Naturally, some in the church will try to polarize or interpret this, but as the rest of us aren't pope, we still have to get further explanation," Palmo added.
Church experts say the Chilean report rings true since the wide-ranging conversation centers on concerns that Francis has made touchstones of his nascent papacy.
In contrast to the buttoned-up Benedict, Francis has earned an early reputation for speaking off the cuff, often ditching prepared remarks in favor of more informal conversations.
On Friday, Francis nixed his “boring” speech and instead took questions from young Catholic students. Asked by a little girl if he wanted to be pope, Francis laughed and said that only someone who “doesn’t love himself” would want the position.
Last month, the pope sparked a worldwide debate by suggesting that atheists might be able to earn a spot in heaven.
"He has said some things that would turn Benedict whiter than the papal vestments," Palmo joked.
Francis told the Catholic leaders on Sunday to focus on the poor, that the Vatican must be reformed, and joked that whoever wagered on his long-shot election as pope “won a lot, of course.”
But his comments on the "gay lobby" are likely to gain the most attention, especially in the West, where Catholic leaders have been mounting a fierce fight against same-sex marriage.
After Benedict announced his resignation in February, reports circulated that a “gay lobby” had forced his hand.
Cardinals appointed by the former pope to find the source of the leaks investigated high-level Vatican clergy involved in homosexual affairs who might have been vulnerable to blackmail, according to La Repubblica, a leading Italian newspaper.
La Repubblica reported that the cardinals found evidence of a “gay lobby” within the Vatican but gave few details about it.
"Some high level clergy are exposed to the `external influence' – what we would call blackmail – of lay people to whom they are connected through ties of a `worldly nature,'" La Repubblica wrote.
The Vatican blasted the newspaper reports as “unverified, unverifiable and completely false.”
Francis is one of the few Catholic leaders to have seen the Vatican report.
The so-called Vatileaks scandal led to Benedict's butler, Paolo Gabriele, being convicted on charges last year of leaking private papers from the the pope's private office. He was sentenced to 18 months in prison.
'Gay lobby' behind pope's resignation? Not likely
John Allen, CNN’s senior Vatican analyst, has said it would have been odd if the Vatican report had not considered the possibility that "insiders leading a double life," including sexually active clergy, might be vulnerable to pressure to betray the pope.
“It seems a stretch, however, to suggest this is the real reason," behind Benedict's resignation, Allen said.
In one of his first actions as pope, Francis created a council of eight cardinals, including Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston, to offer suggestions on reforming the Vatican.
“The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the congregations preceding the Conclave,” Francis said, referring to the meetings that led up to his election in March. “I also asked for it.”
But Francis said that he cannot promote the reform himself. “I am very disorganized,” he said, adding, “I have never been good at this.”
Instead, the pope said, he is relying on his eight appointed cardinals to move the reforms forward.
CNN's Richard Greene contributed to this report.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
I think you meant "scepter"... butt (ha!) I could be wrong.....
The gaystapo is everywhere. if your kids arent learning about their sick little hobbies you are a hate monger.
Don't look in the mirror.
And what's that buzzing sound you hear???
From the allness of absolute nothingness there came into being multiple confining variances of “Big Bang” phenomenon spatially placed throughout the vastness of nothingness. Big Bangs (plural) are events that have happened and are happening and will continue happening within the confining constraints of Celestially Spatial Nothingness.
Out of the chaotic celestial tranquility of congealing atomic cloisters came the earth, planets, moons and stars. We or rather, our physical bodies are the atomized byproducts of evolved creativities. God or no God, we are physically embodied, atomically built cellular cosmologies of ordered multi-dimensional chaos. Our physical makeups are more of spatial voids than atomically formed congenialities and yet one cannot see the spatial voids of atomized cosmologies.
For, do we not view things based upon celestial matters rather than atomic matters? To say that the Gods live deeply inside and upon the cosmologies of atomized creations might not yet be a socially acceptable perspective but I beg you to consider such a long thought out plausibility in rationalized micro and macro and mega cosmological reasonableness.
Celestially manifested life configurations are as byproducts of the atomically ordained orderliness. Wherever the planetary feasibilities become as a fundamental rationalism for the relativities of reasoned cellular evolutions by atomically congealing nurturing natures could very well have originated from within the body’s innermost living intellects of the superior kinds. Are these embodied innermost living intellects of superior origins to be called Gods or simply superior intellectual beings of the finitely small origins?
One brane assaulted another in an ugly rape outside our time and space. The unfortunate offspring, our Universe, was unwanted and abandoned. Those are our celestially sordid beginnings, lionlylamb. Face it and move on.
Are you reciting the verse of scripture where it is written, "Lo here or lo there it is!" followed with "The kingdom of God is within (inside) you"? (Luke 17:21 I think)
How about the pope and the church focus on,
♰ being godly
and not be distracted by sins.
Oh you mean like the sins of their priests raping children.
Unfortunately, the god that their holy book describes is a pretty terrible guy too, so that sure isn't good advice, g-string.
To funny Billy LL and lol?? dancing like chad.
Big Bangs (plural) are events that have happened and are happening and will continue happening within the confining constraints of Celestially Spatial Nothingness. Out of the celestial tranquility of congealing atomic cloisters came the earth, moons and stars. We or rather, our physical bodies are the atomized byproducts of evolved creativities. God or no God we are physically embodied atomically built cellular cosmologies of ordered chaos.
That's some real good non-sense right there!
Obama "mouths" that he is Christian i.e. believes in gay Gabriel and war-mongering Michael the Archangel and Satan. So when his leaves his post, he would be a good fit for the Vatican.
Oh! Oh! Gratuitous Obama slam! Gee! Stop the presses! "Reality" doesn't like Obama either! I'm beyond shocked!
Talk about a tenuous leap. Ridiculous.
Home schooled are we? Trying the giant stretch that Obama is responsible for Vatican policies is pernicious and sniffs of the deepest kind of ignorance.
Just a reminder that the gay issue is not restricted to the Vatican.
Reality, your posts are reminders that stupidity and arrogance aren't solely the province of HeavenSent and Chard.
Gays are bad, but if priests want to molest kids, we will turn the other cheek
HeavenSent is an abomination.
When Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which God said not to or you will surely die. It was a test of loyalty, because of what happened in heaven, Lucifer complained about Gods laws and started to spread lies about God to all the heavenly intelligences throughout the universe, in Revelation 12:7-9 says that war broke out in heaven; Michael which mean one who is like God, Jesus, and His angels fought against the dragon, which means Satan or the devil.fought against his angels, and prevailed not,;neither was their place found anymore in heaven. And that great dragon was CAST out, that old serpent, called the devil and satan, which deceived the whole world; he was CAST out to the earth, and his angels were CAST out with him.. You see Satan was once Gods right hand man, but he became jealous and wanted more than just being a servant for God, he wanted Gods position but not Gods loving character, in the book of Isaiah it tells us that Lucifer fell, How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high God. You see lucifer was not happy with which the position God have gave him, he wanted Gods job. So he started to spread lie about God to all the heavenly angels and deceived a 3rd of them to join him in his rebellion. We have made a video on this very subject, YouTube Cosmic conflict the origin of evil, by Dough Bachelor, Amazing!!!, plus also YouTube last day events of bible prophecy by the same man, catcher later.
"Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books". Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." 
Martin Luther once "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."
Cool story. You should copywrite it.
How cute...another christard shares his interpretation of the Giant Book of Fairy Tales.
If god is all powerful, why would satan try to fight him?
And where are all these other fallen angels? Is scientology on to something?
Why anyone would believe that Adam and Eve ever existed is beyond me, much less the rest of the nonsense you just posted.
My gosh, lol?? gets more bigoted and intolerant with every post. Is there anyone that lol?? won't slam?
Another christard talking out their ass about Lucifer...
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Clearly, "the LORD" felt threatened by the man and woman once they gained a bit of knowledge. I guess this would be either jealously, or a sinking feeling that he was about to become unnecessary.
JamesK, that verse in scriptures explain how Adam and Eve were first to be deceived (in this 2nd earth age) by satan's lies. What happened in the garden of Eden has happened throughout history. Man being deceived by satan's lies when they should focus on and trust Jesus' truth.
"You see lucifer was not happy with which the position God have gave him, he wanted Gods job."
Well seeing as only a 1/3 of the people of the planet actually even believe in your God that means Lucifer will have more people in his domain than your Gods. Your God will get about 2.3 billion and Lucifer gets 4.2 billion people so that means Lucifer wins.
"JamesK, that verse in scriptures explain how Adam and Eve were first to be deceived (in this 2nd earth age) by satan's lies. What happened in the garden of Eden has happened throughout history. Man being deceived by satan's lies when they should focus on and trust Jesus' truth."
James don't bother with HeavenSent she's been proven wrong about her interpretations of the scriptures so much on this blog that it's actually become a joke.
Tom, you must have difficulty walking today, tripping over that big ego of yours. I know you post as Pete too.
"Tom, you must have difficulty walking today, tripping over that big ego of yours. I know you post as Pete too."
Tom is not me which means you're lying again.
Glenn, don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.
So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.
Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.
Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.
Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.
And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.
Jill makes far more sense than Glenn.
You're surprised that they have a gay lobby? The naked guys on the Sistine Chapel ceiling and all the flamboyantly overdone gold, silks, and velvet didn't clue you in? They've got a gay lobby, a gay foyer, most of the interiors of the cathedrals are pretty gay too...
They've been *FABULOUS* for over 1,000 years, girlfriend!
Ha! You made me LOL. Thanks 🙂
Well, Michelangelo was gay. It stands to reason.
Tim, some day you'll work on not having carnal thoughts.
How is Tim, commenting on the posted subject, mainly: gay people, being carnal? I should think one who eschews carnal thoughts wouldn't click on a story subject that deals with one aspect of sexuality, then.
That was funny Tim. Nice work 🙂
Bill Moyers recently interviewed Daniel Dennett, an American philosopher, writer and cognitive scientist whose research centers on the philosophy of mind, science & biology. Dennett holds a Doctor of Philosophy degree from the University of Oxford and is currently the Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy at Tufts University.
Dr. Dennett says that not for all, but for many, the dangerous thing about religion is that "it gives people a gold-plated excuse to stop thinking."
Here is one of the many excellent youtube videos of Dr. Dennett. (" Interview with Dennett on the Mind" – 4/8/2013)
Sorry Helen, I can't quite take a philosopher who's principle comment overgeneralizes a large section of Western philosophy and thought without even the pretense of offering an alternative. This is what passes for philosophy today?
Sorry, Bill Deacon, but maybe, just maybe, when someone so smart and highly regarded has a position that disagrees with yours, maybe you should summon some courage and re-examine your position and what Dennett has to say.
Take your fingers out of your ears and your nose, and the blinders off from around your eyes. Open your closed mind. Could do you a world of good.
So, Bill, what would cause you to take what someone else has to say seriously? Hopefully not merely agreement with your own view.
That was one of his generalizations in the Moyers interview (not the video above). You would need to pay a little closer attention to his research and methods, Bill, to understand how he has arrived at such generalizations.
The Cartesian Theatre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3a2FFoRpzQ
Free Will (Edinburgh University): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKLAbWFCh1E
Now here's a philosopher:
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.
G. K. Chesterton
I have no intention of digesting the man's life works to glean the synthesis of his thought. Perhaps a devotee could make a general statement about what he is for?
He is obviously very big on education, Bill. Dennett advocates, for instance, education about all major religions.
Well that's wonderful. Is he for apple pie too?
How does Chesterton address the ~40,000 different views of what is "right", Bill?
Bill Deacon, it's whose, not who's. Go retake fifth grade.
Bill, a question for you:
What would cause you to take what someone else has to say seriously? Hopefully not merely agreement with your own view.
Well ultimately he became a Catholic so I suspect his views on denominations were parochial. What he wrote is::
There has crept into our thoughts, through a thousand small openings, a curious and unnatural idea. I mean the idea that unity is itself a good thing; that there is something high and spiritual about things being blended and absorbed into each other. That all rivers should run into one river, that all vegetables should go into one pot - that is spoken of as the last and best fulfilment of being. Boys are to be 'at one' with girls; all sects are to be 'at one' in the New Theology; beasts fade into men and men fade into God; union in itself is a noble thing. Now union in itself is not a noble thing. Love is a noble thing; but love is not union.
He Bill Just takes a couple of chondrites to shake the faith out of a bible thumper , did it yesterday when one came
knocking at the door.
Or watch video on previous page.
Some of the things said by G K Ches are amazingly stupid.
Ed, what would cause me to take something someone else said seriously is not that I agree with it but that it "ring" true. Despite Helen's claim that Dennet id for education, not such a cutting edge idea; what I infer is that she means that education will lead to skepticism of religion. So, ultimately Dennet isn't really for education. He is for the type of education that supports his view that religion is for the dim.
Something stupid Chesterton said just for you Cpt:
People generally quarrel because they cannot argue
I can see why you would assume that of Dennett, Bill. Dennett does seem to value knowledge and insight gained by learning from the major religions – their tenets, values, moral code, history, etc. He also seems to see value in what can be seen as the common values between the various religions as considered by one's own individual's values. Perhaps everyone at times need to inspect their own set, and might only seriously do so when they set them side by side with others.
I am only going by his statement, which is why I have asked for something more definitive.
As an illustration, here is a quote by Shaw. A man I cannot ultimately agree with but I take this quote seriously:
Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week.
George Bernard Shaw
He makes almost the same statement Dennet does, but he doesn't tie it to religion. It is probably true that Shaw's statement is more accurate. It isn't religion that gives people license to stop thinking, people will use anything they can in order to stop thinking. Dennet might as well have said "A dangerous thing about television...: or "A dangerous thing about political parties..." He made a fundamental error in linking our lazy mental habits to religion out of his bias, not his science. I don't think Chesterton or Shaw would have been so simplistic in their logic and they both wrote in the last century, without the benefit of Dennet's educational opportunities.
Billy ...................is old news ...............you might learn something bill.
TV NEWS re:SEARCH : Search Captions. Borrow Broadcasts : TV Archive : Internet Archive
Bill: "He made a fundamental error in linking our lazy mental habits to religion..."
The topic at hand in the Moyers interview was religion, Bill. He is a cognitive scientist, and I'm sure he does notice the frequent tendency for many to suspend thought when it is often most needed, regardless of topic.
Then why not say something like "Despite misuse by some lackadaisical thinkers, religion provides values which can contribute to society"? Maybe there is a better statement in there somewhere but I'm sorry I still cannot give a lot of credit to the man when his philosophy is based on what is wrong rather than what is right.
Bill ...........what is right about se-x crimes and the RCC?
And Adam and the___________bone Bill...........bad philosophy BILL.
Or is that to simple to figure out BILL and do not forget the condoms deal BILL.
Sorry, Bill, that was not an example of one of the stupid things Chesterton said. You seem to confuse the stupid things he said with the smart things he said. That's a shame.
Re "rings true", that's quite the incredible hedge Bill and you are quite the slippery little eel. So sometimes you don't agree with what you think sounds true?
Nice slide, but you'll need to plug your nose when you slip yourself into a cesspool like that.
Guffaw. DillDoe imagines that what "rings true" for him is worthy of notice.
What fvcking arrogance.
Hi, I'm a disabled veteran that served in the US Army. I'm posting this aimed at all parties involved. First I'd like to say thank you for participating in your Freedom of Speech, you're welcome (if you are US citizens). Secondly, both sides are being crybabies here.
I'm an atheist, I was raised Christian, and my best friend is a youth pastor. While he reminds me of my former beliefs he respects my right to choose to believe whatever I chose to believe. He is not a hypocrit, nor am I. He is a good man and he tells people the same of me.
Lastly, most of you are p!$$ poor examples of whatever sect of Christianity you claim to represent. No where did Jesus say "Yea that guys, an atheist...so feel free to redicule him." And for the atheists: Since you supposedily believe in science and logic, does it make logical sense to generalize a whole segment (religious being exceptionally large) of a population of being narrow-minded and uneducated? Think on this ladies and gents...
Thank you for your service. To be fair, this is a backwater opinion blog on CNN, so it's not going to get much better than what you've already seen. Plenty of good theological discussions take place on the average, but, you get a polarizing article like this, and the trolls come in, and it all goes downhill. Mostly we're just amusing ourselves on lunch hour.
Red, "... does it make logical sense to generalize a whole segment (religious being exceptionally large) of a population of being narrow-minded and uneducated? "
Those that post on here tend to be science-deniers. Which really is a hypocritical position as they use the internet, presumably use cell phones, GPS, travel in cars, travel in planes, accept DNA evidence, accept atomic clocks, etc. etc. yet deny the vast amount of scientific knowledge that refutes a literal interpretation of the bible.
No worries it was a job. I only put that on here because the last time I inserted that I was an atheist I had a right-winger talking to me about how I was the problem and true patriotic Americans listen to the word and all that. When I informed him that I was a veteran and it's the reason I walk with a limp. His jaw dropped and he completely changed his tone as he was speaking of patriotism and he had never served.
I figured if I said "veteran" I wouldn't immediately be attacked for the other word I used (Atheist). But please continue I'm going back to work.
I retired out of the 82nd in 2010 with almost 25 years in.
Yes it makes sense to tell these people that they are delusional for believing in something for which there is no rational basis. If we don’t tell them then their own peer group sure wont.
Imagine No Religion 3: Peter Boghossian
Oops forgot to mention this takes longer than knocking a couple of chondrites together to shake someone faith.
But works too.
and this is surprising why?
You're right. It's not surprising to find that the Church has been infiltrated by Satan – so we have Gays; thieves and anti-Catholics within our Church.
Deal with it – the members of the Church are HUMAN – and humans are prone to the same nastiness and unnatural behaviour as anyone else.
Mind you , it doesn't help that Freemasons, Communists and Atheists spend a lot of time and money brainwashing young people – including Seminarians – into anti-church activities.
Lenin said that the Catholic Church was the ONLY threat to world wide Communism and Atheism and that it couldn't be damaged EXCEPT from the INSIDE.
OH NOOOO, SATAN!!!
Ah, you're killing me with this nonsense.
@ Sam – Did you flunk Physics?
Everything has an opposite: The magnetic poles / dark and light / matter and anti-matter, wet and dry, heat and cold, good and evil, God and Satan ...........you can 't have one without the other!
I'm surprised that even an uneducated atheist didn't know that!
Jesus. You HAVE to be a Poe, because otherwise my faith in humanity will be down several points.
Really? Cold is the lack of heat, not the opposite.
Ditto with light.
God and satan are not opposite. Unless you think they are equally strong .....
Ten Ways You Know you are an Atheist.
1. You were likely brought up a theist (probably a Jew or Christian if you live in the USA) and had to do your own thinking to rise above the beliefs that still occupy the mind of the believer. This usually involved being smart and working hard at school and college so as to get a good, accurate view of the natural Universe and overcoming significant social pressure to dumb yourself down and conform. In short, you had the guts to ask the hard questions and the brains to spot the weak answers. The more you came to understand the Universe, the less reason there was to believe in a god and the more you came to understand human nature, the more you understood why billions of us still do.
2. While rejecting the supernatural elements of the Bible, you nevertheless retain a large amount of the morality taught today by mainstream Christianity. To the extent you reject Christian morality, it is where it is mean spirited – such as in the way it seeks to curtail freedoms or oppose the rights of $exual minorities. In most other respects, your basic moral outlook is indistinguishable from that of the liberal Christian – you just don’t need the mother of all carrots and sticks hanging over your head in order to act in a manner that you consider moral.
3. You know a great deal more about the Bible than most believers. This is because you took the time to read it yourself and did not rely on the primary-color simple stories you learned in Sunday school. You have also probably done some research into the historical Jesus and have a good handle on where he REALLY fit in to the broader picture of the Middle East at the time. Needless to say, his miracles and other magic powers soon started to look pretty unlikely.
4. Your knowledge of basic science and history is much stronger than that of your average believer. You likely have a basic working knowledge of physics, astronomy, evolutionary biology and cosmology and a good idea of the history of life on this planet. This acc.umulated knowledge puts you in a position to judge the claims of the Bible in a critical light and they are almost always found wanting. To the theist, this makes you “elitist” and ‘arrogant”.
5. You relish your role as a religious minority in the USA, as this gives you an impetus to fight and you understand how others with unpopular, but doubtlessly correct views have felt throughout history. There is something altogether satisfying to you about having a deep conviction you are right and being viewed with disdain for your views by the errant majority. You feel a quiet confidence that future generations will look back on you as a member of a class of trailblazers, as religious supersti.tions go into inevitable decline in popularity.
6. You are likely more environmentally aware than your theist friends and colleagues and unlikely to fall for claims of industry and wind-bag politicians concerning the impact of man’s activities on the environment. You could no more act in an environmentally irresponsible manner because “god will keep us safe” than you could jump off a ship, believing King Neptune will keep you safe.
7. You generally have a live and let live atti.tude, but will fiercely defend against any attempts by theists to thrust their views on you or your children, directly or through control of school boards, the legislature or the executive. While you are prepared to debate and argue passionately with the theist on an intellectual level, you would never wish them harm or ill will. You know you are likely to be smugly told you will “burn in hell for all eternity” for your healthy skepticism. This highlights what you despise about religion, as you would not wish a bad sunburn on another, simply because they have a different religious view to you. You have never heard of an evolutionary biologist strapping a bomb to himself and running into a church yelling “Darwin-u akbar, Darwin-u akbar”.
8. You likely know more about other religions than your average theist. This makes you less fearful of them and enables you to see parallels. You realize that, if you were born in India, you would have been brought up with a totally different religion. You realize that every culture that has ever existed has had its own god(s) and they always favor that particular culture, its hopes, dreams and prejudices. They cannot all exist and you see the error all faiths make of thinking only theirs exist(s). This “rising above” the regional nature of all religions was probably instrumental in your achieving atheism.
9. You likely have a deep, genuine appreciation of the fathomless beauty and unbelievable complexity of our Universe, from the 4 nucleotides that orchestrate every aspect of you, through to the distant quasars, without having to think it was all made for you. You likely get more out of being the irrelevant ant staring up at the cosmos than you do in having to pretend that it was all made to turn in majestic black-and-white pirouette about you.
10. While you have a survival instinct, you cannot fear death in the way the theist does. You know that the whole final judgment story, where you may be sent to hell if you fail, is Dark Ages nonsense meant to keep the Church’s authority. You also know that you were dead for 13,720,000,000 years before you were born. It is impossible for you to fear death, for the simple reason that you know the capacity to feel pain, or to regret or fear itself dies. You will not even know you are dead. Fear of death is as meaningless to you as is the fear of a vacuum, the fear of not being born. You feel a lot more secure, and indeed a deep comfort, in this knowledge, than you would in trying to yoke yourself to some quasi-hope from Bronze Age Palestine that every part of your intellect tells you is untenable.
You forgot a few important things. You know you're an atheist when you're an hypocrite. When you whine about discrimination but turn around and humiliate others. When you call yourselves tolerant but your posting shows otherwise. When you have no compassion for others. And most of all when you're a good liar.
"You know you're an atheist when you're an hypocrite. When you whine about discrimination but turn around and humiliate others. "
No you can't handle that you've been posting lies and are being called on them. You also don't like that it's a fact that you have really poor spelling and grammar which is why you are being called out on them. You're the one that is whining.
Shut up, "Colin."
To summarize Colin’s ten ways you know you are an atheist
2. subjective morality
7. subjective morality
"To summarize Colin’s ten ways you know you are an atheist
2. subjective morality
7. subjective morality
To sum up Robert's post, pride!
it's "a hypocrite", not "an hypocrite". "An" is only appropriate when the "h" is silent and followed by a vowel. Wow, you didn't listen much in middle school, did you?
""To summarize Colin’s ten ways you know you are an atheist
2. subjective morality
7. subjective morality
To sum up Robert's post, pride!"
Oh and subjective morality for his lies.
@Robert Brown. What is objective morality?
Stop schooling me, it shows only one thing, that you're only 12. Go back playing with your video games.
I have a little touble with number 10. While, I don't FEAR death, I am kind of sad that out of the infinite amount of time allotted to the universe, I only get the equivalent of about a split second on Earth. Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna live a hundred thousand more years and grow giant bug eyes, nor can I afford a larger forehead - but I'd at least like to see us get off this planet. I wouldn't mind proof of life on another planet either. It would be pleasing to watch the Vatican try to squirm their way out of that sticky situation. Organized religion has always been about the money. Their revenue stream would run a bit drier if living organisms were found elsewhere.
"Stop schooling me, it shows only one thing, that you're only 12. Go back playing with your video games."
Thanks for demonstrating you're the hypocrite.
Colin, apparently you hit a nerve.
11 – theists immediately start posting quotes and scriptures from the bible to back up their beliefs and an atheists demise
"Go back playing with your video games". That isn't even a sentence. Are there any believers on here who can speak English. This moron can't.
"I wouldn't mind proof of life on another planet either. '
Did you see this article?
Perhaps Sam. It would be good to get an articulate rebuff from a believer. All I have had so far are insults.
I think Colin hit many of the nails on the head. It's not exact as to how every atheist becomes an atheist but I think over all it has the gist of it.
@Pete -I don't think "pride" is really the word you were looking for as it's not always a negative thing. If you are saying it's prideful to stand on your own two feet and make decisions based on actual research and study instead of just trusting some guy who makes his living getting up in front of people on Sunday mornings to convince them to keep coming to hear him speak and to give more to his Church, then chalk me up as prideful I guess.
Pride: A feeling of pleasure from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is associated, or from qualities or possession. Verb: Be especially proud of a particular quality or skill.
Synonyms – noun: arrogance – haughtiness – vanity – conceit
I know you were meaning "proud" as arrogant and haughty but you are far from the truth. The true arrogance in this universe is claiming to know who built it and then claiming you have a direct line to said creator and that you know what he wants for all humans so you are going to try and force that theology on everyone else whether they like it or not.
Who let the 5yr olds near their mommy's iPad?
Sorry Pete, that was meant for Robert as I see you were only replying to his comment.
Do you have any examples of atheists being a hypocrite? Surely in this context that would mean they pray etc. when claiming atheism.
Atheists do not have a lot of tolerance for the religious pushing their beliefs onto the rest of us; other than that I doubt there's much difference from believers.
Do you have any examples of atheist lies? Presumably you refer to the science that disproves your creation myths. Just because you deny it doesn't make it a lie. Unless you have some proof of a god.
Collin, well said. I see most of the believers have just replied with thier usual insulting and, lets face it, thoughtless manner to anyone who disagrees with them. This exposes thier real thought processes very nicely.
Still a snivelling sycophant, Robert?
Did you learn this self loathing from your parents?
Did they from their parents, etc?
Were your ancestors slaves who accepted the massah's religion?
@ Robert Brown – Excellent post. Well said. Now Pete – our little 7th Grader – will post a list opposing what you said!
Atheists are Soooooo predictable!
Objective morality = The Word of God
"@ Robert Brown – Excellent post. Well said. Now Pete – our little 7th Grader – will post a list opposing what you said!
Atheists are Soooooo predictable!"
How many handles are you going to post under. Keep demonstrating you don't have a clue what being a hypocrite means.
Robert: How fvcking objejctive is the "word of god" when there are tens of thousands different churches?
You really are a toady, aren't you?
"Objective morality = The Word of God"
You would have to prove your God exists in order for that to be true and there is no such proof.
In those items that I labeled pride you will find the word “know.” Pride being trusting in your flesh. So, if Colin knows better than God, I believe according to Gods word that he is proud. He is trusting in his flesh.
I do believe in God and if you think that is arrogant, it is ok with me. I would force you to believe if I could, not because I want power over you, but because I have firsthand experience with the judgment and correction of God. It is terrible thing to fall under the judgment of God.
" It is terrible thing to fall under the judgment of God."
Fear sells and makes you delusional.
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
It's a good thing there is no god. I would hate to live in such a totalitarian regime and am not too fond of force.
Robert: That is why all the christian churches agree, because the word of god is objective, right?
Mean old God, telling us to love him and each other.
Robert: How is prayer NOT blasphemous? If god has a plan, the person doing the praying is purporting to know better than god, no?
Do you buy pants with reinforced knees for your begging sessions?
"Mean old God, telling us to love him and each other."
And stone disobedient children
God knew from the beginning that man would "sin", right?
So, this loving god wants to punish people for what he knew they were going to do from the beginning
Spiritual Stockholm Syndrome....you desire eternity with a being from whom you have to be "saved"
I suppose this kind of slavery is passed down from one toady to another
Compulsory love – kind of an oxymoron, and seriously flawed.
2 Peter 1:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
If God says it is sin, it is sin. I am sure those who say some things are ok, that God calls sin, have their reasons. The reasons don’t change what God thinks.
You know what god thinks?
Here is a hint......your babble was written, translated and edited by man.
And, the quotes from it are only valid to those who accept the dubious authority of them
God’s ultimate plan is to remove evil from his universe. Where did evil come from? We have only small glimpses of the source in the word, but it all appears to stem from pride. God created angels before he created us. Some seem to have more power than others. The being known as satan or the devil was a very powerful angel who rebelled against God and started a war in heaven. He wanted to take God’s place. Battles are won and lost. The war continues, which side are you on?
"If God says it is sin, it is sin"
But you are dealing with what god said. You are dealing with what man said
you are NOT dealing with what god says
The bible was written, translated, and edited by man. The men who wrote it were inspired and led by God. It is the written word of God.
"God’s ultimate plan is to remove evil from his universe"
"it all appears to stem from pride."
like knowing the mind of god?
"God created angels before he created us.Some seem to have more power than others. The being known as satan or the devil was a very powerful angel who rebelled against God and started a war in heaven."
Of course, none of this can be substantiated
"which side are you on?"
I am on the side of reason
We are diametrically opposite
"The men who wrote it were inspired and led by God. It is the written word of God"
If it is the written word of god, why are there so many interpretations?
Is god that poor a communicator, or is it the translation across time and languages and cultures that is the problem?
Robert: Is god so impotent that he cannot crush satan?
if the people who wrote the bible can claim to be inpired and led by god, why can't everyone else?
it's amusing to see to what lengths the pious will go to justify their own fantasies
"God’s ultimate plan is to remove evil from his universe. Where did evil come from? We have only small glimpses of the source in the word, but it all appears to stem from pride."
So nothing existed before God, and God created all things, but this evil stuff, it must have some other source that's just not clear yet...right Robert? Another great example of moronic religious thinking.
Why don’t you believe in God?
Have you read all or part of the bible?
Have you attended church?
Are you a “former Christian?”
"God’s ultimate plan is to remove evil from his universe."
Yet "evil" still exists, right?
god sure screwed the pooch on this, eh?
Why don't I believe in god?
I find the whole notion to be absurd
I have been to church....as a child was a member of a Orthodox Church
Why do you believe?
I have not read the bible, I have not read the koran, I have not read the bhagavad-gita, i have not read the upanishads, i have not read any of the supposedly holy books
Maybe someday you will come to the point where you can see God as a possibility.
I believe because I have met God, we are acquainted.
I highly recommend reading the bible, nothing wrong with a little reading.
Really, Robert? What does god look like?
Is he tall or short?
Fat or skinny?
What color hair does he have?
Is it long or short?
Is he tan or nordic, or black, or oriental?
I highly recommend a handful of psilocybin. It will blow that religiious doctrine out of you
I do not believe you, Robert, when you say you have met god; I also would not believe someone who said that they had met the Tooth Fairy--for the same reasons.
does god look more like george burns, or willem dafoe?
where did you meet god, robert? was it at a church, or a bonfire, or a NASCAR event?
come on, robert....we are anxious to know this so we don't mistake him for that guy on the street with a sandwich board who keeps on yelling "repent!" before he tries washing your windshield for spare change
does people challenging your statements make them hard to justify?
i do see god as a possibility. it is one i reject as fanciful dreaming. can you see the possibility of no god?
are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to have a hissy fit and take your toys and run home because those bad old unbelievers don't hop like trained dogs at your flimsy argument?
There are a lot of things people want to know about God, Robert. Since you've met God, perhaps you know. The incarnate God is said to have been tempted and felt all of the same biological demands that we all do. Though perhaps celibate, was Jesus gay, or was he somehow spared all that?
Sorry I missed all your questions earlier I was away from the computer for a while.
When I posted that I had met God and was acquainted with him I meant that in a spiritual sense. My conversion or salvation experience was the first and there have been several since. These also serve as the reasons for my belief in God.
I was recommending that you read the bible because it contains the directions for you to seek God. By the way denying his existence is not one of the directions.
I simply cannot force myself to abandon reason and believe in something that makes no sense to me. I cannot believe there is some omnipotent creature in charge of the universe.
Tom, Tom, the Other One,
Jesus was tempted as we are, but he never yielded to the flesh. He wasn’t spared the temptations that all humans have, he was able to subdue the flesh with the spirit. I think he was celibate and not gay. He was without sin. Peace.
The real Tom,
Is it the idea of an all powerful God being in charge of the universe that doesn’t make sense to you? Or, is there something else about the idea of God that doesn’t make sense to you?
How would you suggest I suspend all rational thought and simply believe in an invisible fairy who judges people for not believing in him?
The real Tom,
So, you are ok with the idea that the universe began to exist and continues without God?
Nothing wrong with being skeptical, I just think that if you intend to seek God, starting with the premise that God is a possibility may be helpful. Would you have to suspend all rational thought to consider God as a possibility?
If you can get to the point where you can consider God as a possibility, then you may be able to get to the point where God will find you. We seek, he finds. I have to go now, maybe we can discuss some more later if you are of a mind to.
"So, you are ok with the idea that the universe began to exist and continues without God?"
Of course. It's managed to do so since before men arrived to invent him.
robert: how do you differentuate seeing god in "a spiritual sense" from seeing god "in a hallucinatioin"?
"Jesus was tempted as we are, but he never yielded to the flesh."
Quoting stories to those who do not accept the supposed authority of those stories is only so effective as a discussion technique.
robert: were you raised in a christian family?
robert: have you ever seriously considered the possibility that there is no god?
robert: please answer my questions
Seriously, Robert, if you have not ever considered the possibility of no god, can you claim that you are seeking truth?
I didn’t say I had seen God.
I was raised in a Christian family.
I don’t think I could go so far as to say that I have seriously considered the possibility that there is no God. I have had doubts, but every time I have had doubts my faith has been reaffirmed.
How could I disregard all the experiences I have had with God?
"How could I disregard all the experiences I have had with God?"
How could you see it as anything other than a mental regurgitation of what you grew up believing?
look up "confirmation bias".
it is hardly surprising that a person who grew up in a christian family to see god as the christian one.
hold the presses.....hindus see god as hindu culture directs, muslims see god as the muslim culture directs, etc.
do you see a pattern here?
robert: if you believe in god, fine. if you feel you have met god, awesome. they are PERSONAL experiences that mean nothing to anyone else.
robert: those experiences mean something to you, but they are not evidence of a god any more than dreaming about bugs bunny is evidence that he is real
The Gay Lobby is where the gay people have to wait before seeing the Pope. It's across the hall from the Straight Lobby.
I heard they were putting in a new Hobby Lobby
I hang out at the "who gives a ratshit about the pope" bar. The lobby is for neophytes.
The Gay Lobby is squeezed right in between a Hobby Lobby and a Chick-fil-A... (and loving it!!)
OK,, I laughed out loud
Aha, that was pretty good.
Gay Lobby, Straight Lobby but co Celibate Lobby, I guess they are all getting a bit on the side whether man or woman.
LMAO!! Awesome !!!
lets say the church is wrong by forcing celibacy on its priests. lets say the church is wrong in very many things. ok. why would you join VOLUNTARILY an order and refuse to abide by its principles? and why would anyone wanna start a lobby that is against certain vows he took?
Because there are devils.
Evelyn: They are as imaginary as gods
Why on earth gay people which are also atheists that hate God so much turned around and invaded the Vatican, why is there so many gay in there?
"Why on earth gay people which are also atheists that hate God so much turned around and invaded the Vatican, why is there so many gay in there?"
Another uneducated Christian, there are thousands of gay Christians plus there is even a story on this blog about a gay Lutheran bishop. What an idiot.
I hate god like I hate the tooth fairy. It's hard to hate something that does not exist.
Uneducated? Well if there is so many type of gay people, then that means it's a good sign. When there is divisions among a certain group that' simply mean they will turn out to be an instinct species sooner or later.
"Uneducated? Well if there is so many type of gay people, then that means it's a good sign. When there is divisions among a certain group that' simply mean they will turn out to be an instinct species sooner or later."
You just proved you're really uneducated.
And where is the proof of that?
Careful or SA may pull the "NEE" punch.
"And where is the proof of that?"
"certain group that' simply mean they will turn out to be an instinct species sooner or later."
Seriously dude look at what you wrote it doesn't make sense because of your stupid spelling errors.
Well you seemed to have understood the meaning of my post anyhow, otherwise you wouldn't have replied to it. lol
Gay people aren't going to go "instinct" until straight people stop having gay kids.
"Gay people aren't going to go "instinct" until straight people stop having gay kids."
Then there is the fact that gay people have been a part of humanity all along and they haven't gone extinct.
There's very REAL infiltration from Communists, Atheists and Freemasons who spend a lot of money befriending young people – especially Seminarians – to undermine their beliefs and do what Lenin said...................................the Catholic Church is the ONLY threat to world Communism and Atheism but it can't be damaged from outside – only from within! And that's what they're doing.
Freemasons do the same but it's to promote the New World Order.
Jesus said "The gates of Hell will NOT prevail against the Church" That's why Atheists and the rest hate it. But I tell you now – you're going to be disappointed. Who needs false pride and non-beliefs when we have Almighty God?
oh and the pope isnt gay? really? He sure dresses funny, and the gay one before him with the little red shoes... YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
if praying to win a battle works then why don't both sides win? because prayers are nothing more then wishes and they as useful as washing your car on a rainy day.
"Like washing a car on a rainy day"?
Well, if you would direct your prayers to the right person(Jesus Christ) , you wouldn't be so wet.
"Well, if you would direct your prayers to the right person(Jesus Christ) , you wouldn't be so wet."
Like Tim Tebow right?
"Like Tim Tebow right?"
He's a jerk and I can't believe the Patriots signed him.
Prayer saved Europe from being overrun by the Moors at the battle of Lepanto in the middle ages. The European Christians' armada was vastly outnumbered and still won. God always wins battles in the end.
"God always wins battles in the end."
That's why it states in the bible it had to wipe out the planet because he didn't make his creation pure enough and screwed up.
LET's Religiosity Law #12 – The Patriots are the best football team in the NFL. This law cannot be impugned.
Also, they didn't "sign" Tebow... He is on the tryouts roster.... If he can't stop being a crappy QB, or willing to move to another position. BB will cut him....
gee, steve, thanks for telling us who the "right person" is
"God always wins battles in the end"
Yep, as timely as the return of the savior.....annnnnyyyyy time now
Bellicheck is smart, he signed Tebow to be the team Chaplin on the off chance that god is real. It would seem to be worth at least a million a year to get god on your side if he is real.
Let the witch hunt being?
As usual, RCC, you are truly pathetic.