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 Conservative Christians say their churches have been unprepared for cultural shifts on same-sex marriage.
June 28th, 2013
06:19 PM ET
Conservatives brace for `marriage revolution'By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - With its ivy-covered entrance and Teddy Bear bouquets, Arlene’s Flowers seems an unlikely spot to trigger a culture-war skirmish. Until recently, the Richland, Washington, shop was better known for its artistic arrangements than its stance on same-sex marriage. But in March, Barronelle Stutzman, the shop’s 68-year-old proprietress, refused to provide wedding flowers for a longtime customer who was marrying his partner. Washington state legalized same-sex marriage in December. An ardent evangelical, Stutzman said she agonized over the decision but couldn’t support a wedding that her faith forbids. “I was not discriminating at all,” she said. “I never told him he couldn’t get married. I gave him recommendations for other flower shops.” Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson disagreed, and filed a consumer protection lawsuit against Arlene’s Flowers. The ACLU also sued on behalf of the customer, Robert Ingersoll, who has said Stutzman’s refusal “really hurt, because it was someone I knew.” Among conservative Christians, Stutzman has become a byword - part cautionary tale and part cause celebre. Websites call her a freedom fighter. Tributes fill Arlene’s Facebook page. Donations to her legal defense fund pour in from as far away as Texas and Arkansas. “For some reason, her case has made a lot of people of faith worry,” said Stutzman’s lawyer, Dale Schowengerdt of the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal group. Those anxieties have only increased, conservative Christians say, since the Supreme Court struck down part of the Defense of Marriage Act and opened the door to gay marriage in California. Taking a line from Justice Antonin Scalia's sharp dissent, Southern Baptist scholar Albert Mohler said it’s only a matter of time "before the other shoe drops" – and the high court legalizes same-sex marriage from coast to coast. “Christians will have to think hard — and fast — about these issues and our proper response,” Mohler wrote on Wednesday. “We will have to learn an entire new set of missional skills as we seek to remain faithful to Christ in this fast-changing culture.” His fellow Southern Baptist Russell Moore put the matter more succinctly. “Same-sex marriage is coming to your community.” `The debate is over' Well before the Supreme Court’s rulings, many conservative Christians said they saw the writing - or the poll numbers - on the wall. Survey after survey shows increasing support for same-sex marriage, especially among young Americans. That includes many religious believers. Most Catholics and mainline Protestants, not to mention many Jews, support same-sex relationships, according to surveys. The bells of Washington National Cathedral pealed in celebration on Thursday. Even among those who oppose gay marriage, many think it’s a losing battle. Seventy percent of white evangelicals believe that legal recognition for gay nuptials is inevitable, according to a June poll by the Pew Research Center, though just 22 percent favor it. “The gay marriage debate is over,” said Jonathan Merritt, an evangelical writer on faith and culture. “Statistically, all the numbers move in one direction.” Young Christians have grown up in a far more diverse culture than their forebears, Merritt noted, and many have befriended gays and lesbians. Pew found that more than 90 percent of Americans overall personally know someone who is gay or lesbian, a 30 percent increase since 1993. “It’s far easier to wage war against an agenda than it is to battle a friend,” Merritt said. At the same time, many conservative young Christians say they’re weary of the culture wars, and of seeing their communities labeled “judgmental.” When Christian researchers at the Barna Group asked Americans aged 16-29 what words best describe Christianity, the top response was “anti-homosexual.” That was true of more than 90 percent of non-Christians and 80 percent of churchgoers, according to Barna. Tired of being told the country is slouching toward Gomorrah, many young Christians have simply tuned out the angry prophets of earlier generations, evangelical leaders say. “The shrill angry voices of retrenchment are no longer getting a broad hearing either in the culture at large or in the evangelical community,” Merritt said. But the battle over same-sex marriage is far from over, said Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage. “I don’t believe most Christians are going to give up the fight,” said Brown, who is Catholic. He said his movement includes many young evangelical and Orthodox Christians. “And they are more energized than ever.” Love thy gay neighbors Energized or not, conservative Christians must prepare for the moral dilemmas posed by the country’s growing acceptance of same-sex marriage, said Moore, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. “Is Your Church Ready for the Marriage Revolution?” Moore asked, while promoting a special session on homosexuality at the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting in Houston in June. Many evangelical pastors have seen homosexuality as a distant culture-war battle that’s fought far from the doors of the churches, Moore said. Now, it’s as close as their front pews. “I think it’s not so much that churches haven’t wanted to talk about it,” he said, “but they haven’t recognized how much the culture has changed around them.” The first step, said Moore, is learning to defend traditional marriage without demonizing gays and lesbians. Walking through Washington’s Union Station last Thursday, Moore said he saw several lesbian couples kissing in celebration of the Supreme Court rulings. “If we can’t empathize with what’s going on in their hearts and minds, we’re not going to be able to love and respect them.” Then come a host of secondary questions: How should conservative pastors minister to same-sex couples? Should Christians attend same-sex weddings? Should florists like Barronelle Stutzman's agree to work with gay couples? `Don't give in'  Florist Barronelle Stutzman. In the 17 years she’s owned Arlene’s Flowers, Stutzman said, she’s worked with a number of gay colleagues. “It really didn’t matter if they were gay, or blue or green, if they were creative and could do the job,” she said. Stutzman suspects that some of her eight children privately don’t agree with her on homosexuality, even as they publicly support her decision. Online, Stutzman has been called a bigot, and worse. She said she’s lost at least two weddings because of her refusal to provide services for the same-sex marriage. Conservative activists say her case is the first of what will surely be many more, as gay marriage spreads across the country. As she gets ready to face a judge, the silver-haired florist offered some advice for fellow evangelicals. “Don’t give in. If you have to go down for Christ, what better person to go down for?” soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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You're gonna regret playin' around with mixing inter-specie DNA. Sounds like bestiality to me. It's like bringin' Asian carp to N america.
Why is that ? Your god had Adam try out bestiality. When your stupid god didn't know, but discovered later. that "it was not good for the man to be alone", he had Adam try out all the animals and birds, "but none PROVED to be a suitable partner for the man". (Genesis 2:20)
EEeeeewwwwwwww, and you kinda added a few of yer own words.
I'm glad she took a stand for what she thought was right.
Gosh me too! I'm glad she took a stand for discrimination.
Moron.
Would you say the same thing if she denied service to an interracial couple? An African American couple?
So you're okay with breaking the law if you don't like that law? So if someone runs a red light and totals your car, you'd be okay with that if the driver really didn't believe that he should have to stop?
Would you say the same thing if she denied service to a KKK wedding? A Taliban wedding? Flowers for a NAMBLA convention?
Here's the thing:
Every time science has been wrong, it has been corrected by better science. The world remains scientifically explained.
Every time religion has been wrong, it had to be brought along kicking and screaming with a trail of dead bodies. Religion was left less complete.
All that is left for religion is morality, get out of the explaining the physical world business.
atheists have brutally tortured and murdered more innocent people in the last 100 years than were killed in all previous centuries.
Exactly. And this is how all Christian theology develops and evolves. It is all made up. To the extent church theologians “research” an issue, they simply look to the writings of earlier theologians who made something up. To the extent those earlier theologians researched anything, they looked to the writings of even earlier theologians who made something up. But at some point, no matter how far back we go, no matter how many theologians we pass through and no matter how honest, intelligent, pious or well lettered the original propagator of the idea was, at some point it is simply made up. Fabricated, albeit with the best of intentions and with the complete self-confidence that the fabrication is correct.
This is why they are still debating the same bullsh.it they did 2,000 years ago and why one can never build on religious doctines. Thet are never tested and leave us nothing. Medecine, engineering, physics, they all provide a foundation upon which subsequent work can proceed. Religion doesn't. The elevator of science ascends at an ever increasing pace. Religion is left in the basement chasing its own tail and sniffing its own backside.
actually
The christians first off have killed far more, ever hear of your brother in christ, Hitler?
There were some atheists that have killed, but it was not because of atheism...it was for politcal reasons to control the people. They felt they had to control the people, and religions needed to be removed to do that. It wasn't the atheist vs religion as the prime motivation, but the political reasons.
All Branches of Modern Science were founded by Christians!
All the Founders of the United States of America were Christians!
All US Presidents have been Christians!
All Members of Congress have been Christians! (one or two exceptions are ONLY recent!)
The vast majority of Americans are Christians!
The Largest Faith in the World is Christian!
and the list goes on and on and on ...
@Vic, please list what you consider to be branches of modern science.
Yes Vic, and they all had star signs, does that give astrology credibility? Yo ucan't put a person neatly into one camp or another when it comes to the thinking that drives religion or science. The vast majority of people (indeed everybody but atheists) employ both ways of thinking in different aspects of their lives. People who think with reason and logic switch it off the minute they walk into a church and accept the silliest, most fantastic of stories without a shred of evidence to back them up. It is this latter way of thinking that adds nothing.
Vic
Yes I'm sure your flawed list of lies does go on and on.
Most branches of both science and mathematics are based on knowledge older than your bible, from before the stories of previous gods were morphed into your christianity, so in reality what you are saying is all was based on mithra and horus.
Why do you keep posting ridiculous false statement after ridiculous false statement?
Vic, in fact, has no facts!
Let's start from the top:
False
False
False
... uhhhh, why continue?
@sara
Alchemy, voodoo, astrology, tea leaves and magic 8-balls.
"Vic" is, in fact, a "drive-by" liar!
@Damocles,
"Alchemy, voodoo, astrology, tea leaves and magic 8-balls"
lol...he'll have to come back with a listsomething like that. His best bet is to assume "modern" sciences are those that existed about 400 years ago and then carefully ignore any Jewish scientists involved. If you pick your "important" era with enough bias, and ignore all that went before and the numerous branches founded, mostly by atheists, in just the last century, you might make a case. Look silly and ignorant, but make a case.
I think Vic's June 29, 2013 at 11:03 am post puts to rest the "Vic = Chad" hypothesis; even Chad would stop-short of most of Vic's brazenly ridiculous assertions.
@Saraswati –
One word...Hippocrates.
Not all U.S. Presidents were Christians.
Vic
85% of the National Academy of Science are atheists.
You lose.
The Treaty of Tripoli explicitly stated this country was in way founded on Christianity, BY THE FOUNDERS.
I was put something else together but oh..wow..look what I found: a site from New Zealand!
Out of <professional curtsy, I delegate this part of the answer to that site:
http://www.christianity.co.nz/science4.htm
Let's all check it out!
I was putting something else together but oh..wow..look what I found: a site from New Zealand!
Out of <professional curtsy, I delegate this part of the answer to that site:
http://www.christianity.co.nz/science4.htm
Let's all check it out!
You're way behind, Vic! You, in fact, have already been caught in a bunch of falsehoods!
Yes, it's trial and error until science uncovers His truth.
@Vic –
One word...Hippocrates. And, using "christianity.co.nz" as your supporting reference, really? Come to think of it, that is something Chad would do. Hmm...
HeavenSent, in fact, doesn't realize that science has no interest in fairy tales!
I was putting something else together but oh..wow..look what I found: a site from New Zealand!
Out of professional curtsy, I delegate this part of the answer to that site:
http://www.christianity.co.nz/science4.htm
Let's all check it out!
Just in case you missed it:
In his very helpful book, What If Jesus Had Never Been Born, D. James Kennedy gives a list of some of the outstanding Bible-believing scientists who gave the lead in founding the following branches of science. This list is worth repeating:
Antiseptic Surgery Joseph Lister
Bacteriology Louis Pasteur
Calculus Isaac Newton
Celestial Mechanics Johannes Kepler
Chemistry Robert Boyle
Comparative Anatomy Georges Cuvier
Dimensional Analysis Lord Rayleigh
Dynamics Isaac Newton
Electronics John Ambrose Fleming
Electrodynamics James Clerk Maxwell
Electromagnetics Michael Faraday
Energetics Lord Kelvin
Entomology of Living Insects Henri Fabre
Field Theory James Clerk Maxwell
Fluid Mechanics George Stokes
Galactic Astronomy Sir William Hershel
Gas Dynamics Robert Boyle
Genetics Gregor Mendel
Glacial Geology Louis Agassiz
Gynaecology James Simpson
Hydrography Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics Blaise Pascal
Ichthyology Louis Agassiz
Isotopic Chemistry William Ramsey
Model Analysis Lord Rayleigh
Natural History John Ray
Non-Euclidean Geometry Bernard Riemann
Oceanography Matthew Maury
Optical Mineralogy David Brewster
However, over the last 150 years the gap between science and Christianity has widened. The causes of this are many: science's share in the increased secularisation of Western society; prejudices and misunderstandings on both sides of the fence; the trend of increasing reductionism in science (reducing subjects to their ultimate units as in quantum mechanics and molecular biology) and so missing out on the bigger picture – to name a few.
factchecker, cough Tommy Tom, seek professional help for why you need to stalk me while using dummy handles.
@Vic – "All Branches of Modern Science were founded by Christians!"
Posting a list of scientists who may or may not have been Christians (and it's irrelevant) does not support your claim that "All Branches of Modern Science were founded by Christians!" I was quickly able to find several on your list who, while scientists and, probably, Christians, are not "founders" of any "branch of modern science".
You failed. Accept it.
Really-O?, scientists didn't pull concepts of what to search out of thin air. It's because of Jesus Christ that they search to uncover His truth. Meanwhile, you believed you derived from apes scratching their b-ts and wrote nothing, did nothing except swing from branch to branch.
Heaven Sent & Vic,
Your "God/Jesus" character sounds like 'he' is:
- Very stupid to not be able to communicate effectively to *everyone*. 2/3rds of the world does not believe your legend.
- An evil trickster, casting ambiguous trails of breadcrumbs (for what 'he' knows are hapless travelers); with some trails leading right over a cliff.
Many branches of mathematics were founded by muslims. Does that mean that Islam is correct?
Professional curtsy?
"A gesture of respect or reverence made chiefly by women by bending the knees with one foot forward and lowering the body."
I didn't know that there was actually a professional version.
Vic, most sciences began at a time when a person could be ostracized or even criminally prosecuted for lack of belief. Western society has spent much of the last 2000 years under the thumb of religion. It was politic to claim christianity, no matter what an individual actually believed.
And in the end it doesn't matter. Science builds on the previous generations. The scientists are secondary to the science. Any science that doesn't hold up to scrutiny is dismissed, period. Religion has never been able to make that claim.
professional courtesy
I realized the wrong spell checker pick too late and decided to ignore it. Sorry about that!
To HeavenSent, lol??, lionlylamb and ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION. Once again, you are wasting your time asking me questions and trying to engage me. I never, ever answer you for the simple reason that you are all batsh.it crazy.
This is not meant as an insult, I am not trying to be mean. I am making an observation based on the data I have. You are all barking mad. Fvcking crazy. So, please, save yourself the effort, I will not answer you or engage with you. I might as well try and argue quantum physics with a corgi.
Go away.
What will you do about your sin?
@other Colin. There is no such thing as siin. You might as wel lask me what I will do about my "pet ghost."
Duelling colins.
One would have to believe in sin and acknowledge himself to be sinful for your question to have any meaning, Colin(2).
Colin, you're in denial to think we have anything to do with your decisions in life, Tom.
Tom Colins? HeavenSent is, in fact, confused!
Multiple Sybils backing up the lies of Sybil. LOL too funny, yet sad.
What is sad is a liar who has been caught lying many times on the Belief Blog; who continues to lie and can never back up its claims; and in a cowardly manner hides behind its unfounded claims. That is, in fact, "HeavenSent"!
Tom, and all your dummy handles wouldn't know His truth. Too clouded by satan's lies.
Sorry, HeavenSent, fairy tales won't help with your paranoia; they won't help you fully understand current knowledge! We also know they contribute to your diarrhea of lying!
Again factchecker, cough Tommy Tom, seek professional help for why you need to stalk me while using dummy handles.
ScienceDaily: Your source for the latest research news and science breakthroughs - updated daily
Hey chavic.................what does Rachel say about you 2 timing with VIC ?
Origin of Life News
http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/fossils_ruins/origin_of_life/
factchecker Tommy Tom, no matter how many dummy handles you conjure up to support your lies. Fact is, you're a lying BAITER who's big ego made you the pathetic person you are today. Go humble as Jesus told us, and you too can know His truth and escape being enslaved by satan's lies.
Not the real HS. Fake, fake, fake.
The scariest thing you could hear from someone you love: "I love you because God loves you."
Lol..that'd be the end of any relationship I had, unless maybe it was a symptom of an elderly relative's dementia. Yep...scary. I can't believe people would put up with that.
I love it when a believe confidently declares that they believe in (their) god because science cannot definitively explain something to their satisfaction, such as the origins of the Universe. Their logic makes me laugh. They say "you can't explain the origins of the Universe" and then fill the gap with their god by saying "therefore (my) godf made it and he always existed. Problem solved.
But, of course, that solves nothing. All they have done is answered nothing. They could just as easily said the Universe was "always there." God is an unnecessary add on. A stop gap measure. In fact, God is not an answer for anything. It is a cop out, a shrug of the shoulders. When we attributesomething we don't understand to "God" all we have done is put a halo on a question mark and cowered away from the challenge.
Colin, the evolution lie allows sinners to stay in denial.
Colin,
It's also a bit hypocritical. They don't understand how a computer and communication network works but they use it. Computers and networks come from stem not prayer.
Exactly.
Boston, you'd better explain "stem" to HS. It isn't very bright.
HeavenSent,
Is gravity a lie?
As always, HeavenSent, in fact, has no facts for its crazy claims.
Anything I can't explain indicates I'm a superior being from the real universe tripping on superbeing drugs.
As always heaven sent brings pertinent facts to the forefront
Of all things, gravity is something HS couldn't possibly deny. Big butts don't float.
And what will you do about your sin?
What will you do about yours? Bearing false witness is one of the biggies.
Bostontola, gravity was written in scriptures thousands of years before Newton tested the apples. He knew how to do the test due to Jesus Christ's truth in the Bible.
Watch out for fake "fact checker".
HeavenSent, in fact, continues to lie. After all, it's the biggest liar on the Belief Blog!
factchecker, you'd know which scripture told us about gravity if you had eyes to see His truth.
HS, The bible may note that the earth, moon, sun, etc. are connected – that's a long way off of explaining gravity. Remember for centuries religion held a geo-centric view and punished anyone who said otherwise; if they didn't understand that then they didn't understand gravity.
@heavenscent(smells like peanut butter and dog saliva)
Strange that you, the bible quote machine gun, can not come up with some gravity scripture.
HeavenSent, in fact, always hides behind "His truth" when it can't support ANY of it's claims!
Heavensent knows about gravity because it makes it hard for her to get out of the tub.
Tom
I'm going to have to go against you on that one...I think it is highly likley that HS does not know what a tub is.
@the real tom
Great! I'm picturing this oozing, gelatinous mass of tissue feebly kicking its half-formed flippers as it desperately tries to escape the tub.
@The real Tom – "...it makes it hard for her to get out of the tub."
I swear there is a pot of gold waiting for you in the entertainment industry. I suspect the Farrelly brothers and, perhaps, Stewart would pay handsomely for your turn of phrase.
Tom, now I KNOW what's wrong with you. PLAYING in traffic is hazardous to your well being.
Is HeavenSent attempting humor?
Really O,
2 Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
Amen.
Ah, HeavenSent now resorts to its usual mode of inquiry, validation and verification:
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YIj4rLYo0c&w=640&h=360]
@HeavenSent –
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
Bertrand Russell. Mortals and Others
Really-O?, no matter how many times they call you sunny, it will never make you bright.
HeavenSent obviously misses the opportunity it had to join the Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co., but it didn't do so well at the training sessions!
@HeavenSent – "no matter how many times they call you sunny, it will never make you bright."
Folksy, but I like it.
Really-O?, that was used before 1970 if you can research it today.
Bostontola, gravity was written in scriptures thousands of years before Newton tested the apples.
Isaac Newton didn't test apples. He wondered why an apple always falls perpendicular to the ground, thus inspiring his theory of gravitation.
Doobs, he still took the concept from Jesus' truth because he was a Christian that read the Bible.
No god(s) test.
HI,
When God got done with his killing spree, he had killed EVERY pregnant woman, child, baby, and fetus on the face of the earth.
Nice guy.
Yabbut, "God LOVES you." That's what they all claim.
It cracks me up-they were evil and would "destroy the world." So god beat them to it.
How does righteous judgement become a "killing spree" ? Try telling a Texas judge that the 500th execution of a Texas criminal amounts to a "killing spree". I've never heard anything as insane as this idiot observer. God is the final Judge and God has exercised His righteous judgement. So what!
To be pregnant with child means to believe in false gods/religions.
Colin
"How does righteous judgement become a "killing spree"
What were the sins of the children, babies and FETUSES that justified MURDERING them?
Wake up! Get real.
@heavenscent(smells like week old cabbage soup)
Da fvck are you talking about?
It is recorded in testament that all thoughts were continually evil. Evidence presented, verdict issued, sentence carried out. That is the Law. Don't like it? Tough, you will face the same Judge and you freely admit you know what the penalty will be. Get used to it.
Observer, who do you think you're kidding? You are pro-abortion to allow the killing of children.
The scariest thing you could hear from someone you love: "I love you because God loves you."
Tom, your lies from dummy handles to back up your lies is ridiculous.
HS is just trolling. It doesn't believe a word it's typing.
Observer
What will you do about your sin?
@CS
No, no, the scariest thing to hear is 'I'm going to love you like my deity loves people'. At that moment you should run reeeaaallly fast because that person is going to try and murder you.
Wait, wait, come back! These bullets I'm tossing at you with the help of this gun are only meant to show my love for you! Why are you running?!
Let's play loveflood... you lay down in a tub full of water and I hold you down until you can't take the love anymore! Fun, right?
What is sin, Colin?
Don't ask questions you already know the answer to. What will YOU do about YOUR sin?
@dumbcolin
The judge reached that descision after a trial. Was there a trial? Who was the defense attorney? What evidence was brought to bear? Who spoke for all the unborn children that died in the flood with their mothers?
This Colin is, in fact, all uptight because it believes in fairy tales!
The fairy tale of evolution allows sinners to deny their sins.
HeavenSent, in fact, can't support any of its claims! If there was a Belief Blog liar's club, it would be the President! (But it would obviously need a very keen administrative assistant.)
Tom. you should seek professional help for why you need to constantly stalk me.
Pre-flood genetics of the race was corrupted by the Nephilim to try and thwart the coming of the promised seed. Almost succeeded. This time around they are not needed with plenty of human volunteer Drs. Frankensteins.
Telling the end from the beginning
More like telling tales of topographic oceans. Keep yapping, little doggie.
Hey lol??.................goofy = LOL
Sequencing ancient calcified dental plaque shows changes in oral microbiota with dietary shifts of the Neolithic and Industrial revolutions
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v45/n4/abs/ng.2536.html
Tom, the river is called the Nile, not d'nile.
HS = senile troll.
The Nephilim were the "sons of god". Seriously, you never read your Babble.
The Nephilims weren't born of woman. How could they be sons of God.
Anybody who doesn't think the flower lady is guilty, should open their eyes and see where it leads: "No colored people served. No Irish need apply. Juden verboten." Discrimination in consumer services is illegal - we settled that 50 years ago. Of course we settled voting rights and abortion long ago, and now we're being forced to fight those battles all over again, forced by the same idiots like the flower lady. Because Stupid Never Dies.
Stupid might die a little if we continued to evolve toward more complex brains, but barring that we're looking at spotty and unreliable advances. We humans just aren't that bright.
Modern science wants the world to see with ancient eyes.That's progress?? It's actually copycattin' scripture.
lol?? is, obviously, a very confused individual.
Again from the cheerleaders at wiki:
"Evolutionary thought, the conception that species change over time, has roots in antiquity, in the ideas of the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese as well as in medieval Islamic science."
1) Science isn't dependent on when/where/how an idea originates, only the evidence which overwhelming supports the Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection. The advent of modern genetics has provided databases full of information that supports the current theory.
2) It seems like you don't have any trouble worshiping other antiquated views for a similar time period...
Hey lol??....................?...............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ?
DNA tests reveal Prince William's Indian ancestry
By Peter Wilkinson, CNN
updated 12:48 PM EDT, Fri June 14, 2013
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/world/europe/britain-prince-william-india/?iref=obnetwork
Prayer changes things,
Hi Prayerbot.
More lies from the prayerbot. WHy do you keep violating the 9th commandment?
Both claims are, in fact, false.
fact checker is wrong
Sock puppets such as "as always" are, in fact, without facts.
as always is wrong...see how simple it is to say no, when you don't actually say anything to refute it.
God is the one that is not healthy for children and other living things. The storybook tells you of when god wiped out all of the children and other living things.
Prayer and meditation are a great way to seek God.
I promise you, if you honestly want to know God you can find him. And not the American way. God's way. It is better. You don't need a PhD. Just willingness and humility.
In Genesis flood story, human beings were so wicked they were going to destroy themselves and the world without God.
And God provided a way out of that destruction. You wouldn't be here today if He hadn't intervened and provided a plan for Noah.
richard cranium is wrong
@hi
Sooo... the deity's awesomely brilliant plan to stop the humans from killing themselves was to kill all the humans??
Wait for it.....
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... *catching my breath* ....hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Perhaps your handle should be high.
and the sock puppets come out aye chad at the red mass.
It is religious belief which is child abuse. Even my twelve-year-old said so. And she's clearly smarter than...Oh, never mind.
HIGH: "You wouldn't be here today if He hadn't intervened and provided a plan for Noah."
See, when you make idiotic statements like that, you invite ridicule. You don't know anything of the sort to be true. You believe it and that is all. Nothing but faith. No facts. No evidence. Why do you have to lie about it?
– Damocles
Apparently you missed something important.
Human beings were on a path to destroy the world.
God stopped this, and saved some of the human beings.
But He allowed to floods to destroy the people lost to their evil desires.
If God hadn't stepped in, you wouldn't be here today.
God loves you.
What utter BS.
The poster "Hi", in fact, has no facts!
Here's how God treated CHILDREN AND OTHER LIVING THINGS:
Genesis 7:21 "And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings”
@high
Eight is not some, its a ridiculously small percentage of whatever the world's population would have been at that time. And riddle me this highboy, why wouldn't your benevolent deity take care of the problem before it got so out of control that it had to murder millions of people?
The love and acceptance of God is much greater than the love and acceptance of internet atheists.
Internet atheists spend way too much time insisting God doesn't exist. Why post here? Why not post on a science or evolution board? Why not actually practice what you preach?
What are you looking for?
God?
So murder is the new love and acceptance?
Hi, why do you post here where atheists and agnostics are free to tell you you're full of crap if you don't enjoy it? You can find lots of religious blogs that require you to log in and that discourage free expression. Go there if you're so annoyed.
It's none of your business why anyone does anything.
@ Hi. For the same reason doctors don't spend time with healthy people. If you want to change minds, and help elevate Christians out of their childish superst.itions, you have to confront the problem.
as always is as always lying
I am right. This god of yours is not healthy for children and other living things.
from your story book.
Genesis 7:21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
That would indicate that god is not healthy for anything alive...the alternative is that this god of yours does not actually exist.
:"And riddle me this highboy, why wouldn't your benevolent deity take care of the problem before it got so out of control that it had to murder millions of people?"
God didn't murder them. They died in a flood. He offered a way out to those who would listen.
It is the same today. God allows us to live for or against him, and we have to live with the consequences.
Sometimes God does interfere in our lives with a flood or something before we totally destroy ourselves.
God is sovereign. In the end He judges us, not the other way around.
So killing them in a flood was a loving act because they were "destroying themselves"? That's the stupidest explanation I've heard yet.
How dumb do you have to be to believe this crap?
Fun stories, "Hi"! Thankfully, you have no facts, otherwise that would be some scary shit!
:"Hi, why do you post here where atheists and agnostics are free to tell you you're full of crap if you don't enjoy it? You can find lots of religious blogs that require you to log in and that discourage free expression. Go there if you're so annoyed. "
Because the people here keep asking about God.
The internet atheists talk about God more than Christians on religious boards. Kind of ironic!
No, they're not 'asking' about your god. They're challenging you to make good on your ridiculous claims and stop using the bible as an excuse to discriminate against people you dislike.
If you can't take it, leave.
So Tom what will you do about your sin?
God is light (good). There is no darkness (evil) in Him. Perhaps his mere presence destroys darkness.
When He came to save His creation, all the darkness drowned. But every single person in the light survived.
@IamthenewdefinitionofhighbecauseImsohigh
Seriously?
First you say it didn't kill them, they died in a flood it sent. Riiiggghhtt.
Then you say basically 'oh, my deity needs to send a flood every so often to remind people it's a vindictive little thing'.
You are magically stupid.
@stupidlyhigh
Murder is wrong goofball. We punish those that murder. Weird, right?
hi
"God is light (good). There is no darkness (evil) in Him. Perhaps his mere presence destroys darkness.
When He came to save His creation, all the darkness drowned. But every single person in the light survived."
Seriously, you don't even understand your own religion nor your god.
God is as evil as he is good, as male as he is female, as dark as he is light as much hate as he is love...he is all things , remember? And there apparently were less than 10 people that were in the light when god sent a flood murdering everyone else? God created your satan and your hell knowing full well the consequences, why do that if he is "all good and no evil"...that makes no sense, as does any of your posts.
Phony heavensent has to write to ensure satan's lies of dung keep flowing.
The real Tom, idiotic statements belong to you and all your dummy handles.
HeavenSent is, in fact, no only the biggest liar on the Belief Blog, but all the most paranoid poster!
Richard Cranium, you don't get it. Allow me to spell it out for you. Only evil believes God to be evil because He's wiping you out.
Tom as factchecker, make like a tree.
HS
I get it far more than you appear to.
Your god allegedly created everything, including good and evil, created your satan, knowing full well the consequences. Your god is OK with anything satan has done, or ever will do, for he certainly knew what would happen when he created him.
Why is it that you can't see that...it is a central theme in your story book. God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, and is all things.
Richard Cranium, where do you get the false information? It's already written, God sentenced satan to perish and all those that follow his lies.
Richard Cranium, the world we live in is a test from God to find out who is going to follow Jesus' truth so we can dwell with Him through eternity. All evil doesn't make it to eternity. Unbelief of His truth is evil.
:Richard
Riiiight! I'm sure an angry-sounding internet atheist who rejects Jesus Christ knows more about my religion than me.
Are you serious? Do you realize how arrogant that appears?
HS
You state belief, not truth.
I do not believe your version of your religion.
If you have anything other than an old book that has been proven wrong in many areas, please feel free to present it.
HS
Where am I "angry sounding"?
:Richard
You sound angry when you claim all your beliefs are based in logic and reason.
While the beliefs of those people you dislike are not based in logic and reason. People like me ignore logic and reason to reach our conclusions.
That seems pretty arrogant to claim some exclusive access to logic and reason.
Sorry, people who believe in God use logic and reason, too.
Besides, there is more to life than logic and reason. That is why God is concerned about our hearts, not just our minds.
You also sound angry when you accuse others of lying, when simply you just don't agree with them.
And when you accuse others of breaking commandments you sound angry. And hypocritical. Are you sure you are not a fundie Christian? You sure act like one some times!
Hi
I did not make that claim. I made the claim that yours is NOT based in any logic or reason...if it was there would be no reason for faith. I made no claim to my beliefs, but since you addressed it, ,y beliefs are based in what we know to be, and I have no issue saying I do not know when I do not know. Religions like to claim to know , when they cannot possibly, man's own imagination responding to man's own ignorance, which is where all religions come from.
And how is that angry sounding?
It would take a great deal to make me angry, and really only can be accomplished by people who know me.
Sorry I misunderstood you. When someone claims to know more about me (from just postings on a message board) I think that sounds like they are angry.
Because it is completely unreasonable.
I have faith in God to get me through this life. I use logic and reason to believe in God. They are both gifts from God.
Human beings are more than just the product of logic and reason.
Life is way more beautiful than that.
Get off the computer and spend some time in nature. See the wonders of God.
It is quite logical and reasonable to expect there is more to life than meets the eye.
I can't deny that.
hi
"I have faith in God to get me through this life. I use logic and reason to believe in God. They are both gifts from God."
incorrect. Logic and reason would indicate Not to believe without evidence, otherwise you would then believe in all of the thousands of gods and every other whim like the toothfairy and the Great pumpkin, logic precludes you from believing without evidence.
"Get off the computer and spend some time in nature. See the wonders of God. "
I am only on the computer while at work, and am in the middle of processes running I have a few moments to indulge myself. I otherwise I do not go on the computer I also see many wonders, but I wonder why you attribute these wonders to a god that you cannot possibly know exists. That is like saying Go and see the wonders that the Great Pumpkin has bestowe upon us...again, you are confusing logic with belief.
Nope. Belief in Jesus Christ does not logically mean I would believe in thousands of gods or the toothfairy. Belief for me is based on my real life relationship with Jesus. I don't have that with the thousands of other gods. This isn't something I just read about in a book.
That is completely illogical. Especially when he clearly asks us not to believe in such things.
You've demonstrated unreasonableness above.
And now being illogical.
I think it would be wise to stop listening to you now!
Good day.
"I think it would be wise to stop listening to you now!"
In other words, "Hi" is confused by logic. It's easier to believe in the make-believe when reality doesn't come knocking on the door.
Eh, I can point out believers that demonstrate a better grasp of logic than you. There are great scientists that believe in God. You claiming they are illogical would look foolish (that is why you post on a CNN Message Board and they get paid to write in scientific journals).
Tallulah
Clearly another who does not understand what logic is. Thinking that belief in the supernatural somehow is logical is instant logic fail. While I understand they believe, they don't understand that faith itself is illogical, by definition, otherwise there would be no reason for faith in the first place.
hi
By all means, please lay out the logic that gets you to the conclusion that your god exists.
I will show you where it is flawed.
and by the way hi,
I have been paid quite a bit for all of the science that I have published. My work is in many fields of science. Have any one of your science friends try publishing a logical essay proving the existance of any gods...they would be laughed out of the scientific community.
If god created human, who (or what) created god?
Humans.
Read the book God is.You'll be appraised of any further information on a need to know basis but frankly you ain't that important.
God has always existed.
Our world is limited. And was created for us.
God dwells outside this world in eternity.
It is beyond human understanding. Our mortal minds can't adequately comprehend an eternal, infinite, limitless existence.
dick head is right humans create gods but "G" GOD IS and has always been.
Who created God? God's mom and dad of course.
jason
Your evidence is?
The existance of any gods is just a hypothesis, since there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, it can't even qualify as a theory.
my evidence is I've met God and He is everything He says He is and more.
jason
Ahhh...anecdotal evidence, which is no evidence at all. Try again.
those God loves God calls sorry about you looks like you're out of trys
I don't think Jason has to prove God to you. Why would he? He can honestly explain his evidence for believing in God, and you are free to accept or reject it.
Who are you to establish the guidelines on how God should and shouldn't reveal himself to us? Do you think you are a god or something?
If you honestly want to know God and not just know about Him, perhaps we can help you.
If you honestly just want to insist on how right you think are, I doubt anyone can help you.
Then you and jason should stop claiming you have evidence that he exists. If you believe, fine. Don't claim you have facts.
jason, in fact, demonstrates no evidence here.
It's best to chalk it up to crazy talk.
@high
How in the world do you know so much about something that you just said can't be known??
High as a kite, as always.
God is a fictional character, like Darth Vader or Voldemort.
@jason
Seek help. Seriously.
Do you think God smiles at the internet atheists that spend so much time on a faith and belief blog... talking about God?
hi
I simply asked for evidence of this alleged god. There is none, anywhere. Just like there is no evidence of any of the other thousands of gods.
I don't think a god worth the name would be concerned with internet posters.
If your god is busy smiling or reading here, he's an idiot.
@IflyhighcuzIcantdealwithreality
Ask jason, he seemingly has met the deity, had coffee and danish with it and then played a few rousing games of putt-putt with it.
There is, in fact, no facts about any gods, Hi. So why try to pretend there is something that is like a human, with human emotions?
LOL (Damo's post)
Me, too. Damo should have a special on HBO.
🙂
:Richard
I have evidence.
God exists. And just because you don't know this doesn't make it any less true.
You seem to want evidence you can possess and control. That is not God.
hi
You claim to have evidence, yet you do not present it. Is it because you know I will shred any thing you present because you know there is no logic or reason behind your alleged evidence? You know that such "evidence" will not stand up to scrutiny?
Of course... you have faith, and faith is not evidence. Actually faith is the ability to ignore facts and leap to a completely illogical and unreasonable conclusion based on nothing. You must ignore logic and reason in order to have faith, otherwise there would be no need for faith.
SO are you bold enough to present this "evidence"? I would love to show you exactly where your evidence is not, and where you made the error in logic.
"Hi", in fact, has no facts AND no evidence. Pretty dumb!
High's response:
You can't have my super-duper nifty evidence for a deity because you can't see it, it's all in my mind, but it's there I tell you! It's there!!!
*puff puff* Wait, what were we talking about??
:Richard Cranium
Do you honestly and truthfully want evidence of God?
Because it actually looks like you just want to prove that you are right and insist you know what motivates me.
You are wrong about me.
I can help you find God. Are you willing to humble yourself?
@ "High"
Cute. Why are there so many people on here that resort to changing a person's alias into some kind of slur or demeaning phrase? Am I trying to have a discussion with 4th Graders?
Hi
I simply , again, ask for evidence. I searched for god for decades and either he completely ignored me all that time, or he does not exist,
Tell me , why do you not believe in the thousands of other gods?
You realize further that when you say the names of the days of the week, or the names of planets, many towns, cars, candy bars...all these things that are named for many of the other gods that you are violating one of your gods top 10 no-no's right?
Please...your evidence...and show your work.
@ Richard Cranium
I'm sure a God of grace and mercy can overlook me being taught that a certain day is named "Monday" by our society.
I don't place "Monday" at the center of my life or pray to "Monday" or seek to do "Monday's" will.
Nobody but God and Jesus Christ has kept all the 10 Commandments.
If you want evidence I suggest you find some believers you know and ask them. They have evidence for believing in God. If you don't like that evidence, fine. Why keep asking me for evidence? What are you looking for?
I think God wants you to know Him. Not just know about Him.
Don't deny your sins. Deny yourself. Repent.
God is real.
Honest.
There is evidence of you being wrong today. Maybe this is where you can start to admit some of your defects?
When a Christian claims to have evidence but doesn't, is that a lie?
I have to to, but I know how much you like evidence.
Here is evidence of you being wrong:
-–
Richard Cranium
First off, no one at CNN would sign off with "Yr hmbl srvnt".
Secondly, since all it takes is an email address to log on,
you could block one email account and I could then just create
a dummy email on many sites for free, and start posting again.
This is not a representative for CNN.
Nice try though.
June 29, 2013 at 12:04 pm
--
Can you admit where you were wrong? This can actually be a good first step in searching for God. Good luck on your search!
"I have to go"
I wouldn't believe if I didn't have evidence. There are plenty of intelligent and scientific minds that see evidence of God.
An internet atheist not seeing or realizing that evidence doesn't make it any less true. Keep searching.
@Hi
What is the evidence, then? Those scientists and professionals that think the universe is evidence of god believe in different gods and doctrines, so the "evidence" really isn't since it does not demonstrate that one god is true and the others false. Get it?
@Hi,
CNN's David Burke confirmed his ident'ity in less than 30 minutes, with a couple of hundred keystrokes.
(of course there *is* the possibility that he is a just highly skilled hacker, but I think we have somewhat sufficient evidence that he is the CNN co-Editor)
Perhaps your "God" character could take a few pointers on ident'ity verification from David Burke...?
p.s. Don't you think that a real god would be at least as smart, efficient and effective as David Burke?
p.p.s. Yoiks, his name is "Daniel", not "David". My apologies for my mistake.
Zombie nation, zombie tribe
No place to run
No place to hide
And the band droned on.
So proud to live, so proud to die
Just another blood stain on the highway of life. You are deeply disturbed seek help.
Tom, get your anger under control or the court will order you to take anger management classes for which your big ego will deny any truth to its validity as well.
Uh oh, I'm now realizing that HS is yet another flunkie from the Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. training bootcamp.
HS=stupid troll
How clever, not. DUMMY HANDLES BACKING UP LIES.
Last April astronomers from all over the northern hemisphere traveled to Alaska to observe the meteor showers. Sarah Palin was easy to spot as she was the only one with an umbrella.
Ok...that one was funny, but you really need to look into this obsession you have with her.
I was invited to a meteor shower, and I couldn't figure out what I should bring as a gift.
Because children deserve genuine scientific knowledge not religious nonsense.
The lies of evolution is taught to ensure folks can stay in their denial.
the atheist does not believe in God because he sees no physical evidence.However, you see all kinds of evidence and choose to ignore it.You limit your intelligence and restrict your ability to know God in all his mysteries.
HeavenSent is the one who, in fact, has been caught lying on many occasions.
What lies of evolution? Are you really so ridiculous to not see evolution is as real as DNA.? You can trace evolution right through any and all DNA.
Please be specific as to which lies of evolution you are refering to.
We don't know how the universe began. We have theories, but all are unproven. It appears that a "big bang" started it all, but appearances can be deceiving.
In 600 years everything we know about the universe will look as silly as it did 600 years ago, when the world "appeared" flat.
HeavenScent is a hypocrite, as are all religious fundies. If they were in prison and DNA (which proves Evolution) could get them out, they would use it. They are too stupid to get why it's true, but they would use it.
Evolution allows those living in denial to not understand they are living a lie.
DNA evidence was perfected to be a witness to Jesus' truth.
If god created human, who (or what) created god?
Evolution can be considered obsolete and you can forget: "Evolutionary thought, the conception that species change over time, has roots in antiquity, in the ideas of the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese as well as in medieval Islamic science." Just a dream and no concept of DNA, dudes. wiki Oh, oooooohhh, micro vs macro!!
Lazarus didn't evolve out of the grave.
HeavenSent's claims are, in fact, false.
factchecker, cough Tom. You need help with your obsession of stalking me.
Wow HS...............you polka about as good as chavic.
No god(s) needed to polka with chavic.
Austin
ok, going back to the night i had a dream that i was walking through a pitch black forest, and i saw an A frame cabin. so i knocked it was cold out. and this lady opens up the door and lets me in and says, "i have two kids", and one was dead but its spirit was in the corner of the room (couldnt see it) and it started singing in a dual tone voice and the singing inverted my body.
well that day this little white kitten was on my porch, and in the dream when i was inverted by the demonic voice, the kitty ran underneath with blood gushing out of it.
i woke up and went outside , and i knew this was a demonic dream, and the cat WAS DEAD, iT WAS RAN OVER AT THE END OF THE DRIVE WAY.
You need your own experience , with the Holy Spirit. Ask God.
Tom, all you unbelievers enjoy while you can. Jesus is at the door and Justice came in last December while all you fools were snoozing.
Stupid troll.
The sin of anger (aka wrath) is blinding you Tom.
HeavenSent, every other word you type is either "satan's lies" or "denial."
Do you really think anyone is going to change his mind because of your wailing? You've been writing the same sorry crap for months. Has anyone ever said you were convincing? Persuasive?
Get a clue. You are hurting your own cause.
I concluded HeavenSent was a troll a few weeks ago. He's really waybeyond plausible ... and I try pretty hard to give most people the benefit of the doubt.
Tom
HS reminds me of the street preachers in various cities...no one ever stops to listen to them, and no one even makes eye contact with them....It is obvious to everyone that there is a great deal of mental illness going on there.
HS is a morbidly obese, trailer park queen from Canada. I thought that was well established.
You know, Sara, I really think you're probably correct. HS is just a troll. Whoever is posting under the name isn't the original, who probably left some time ago. This POS is a poser.
Get a clue yourself Tom. You are responsible for not believing as well as the other unhealthy vices you refined that are listed below for destruction..
Revelation 21:8
But the f.earful, and u.nbelieving, and the a.bominable, and m.urderers, and w.horemongers, and s.orcerers, and i.dolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Amen.
Silly troll.
Sybil Tom and her dummy handles to pretend she has friends to back up her cough his lies. You're beyond boring with this routine.
HeavenSent is, in fact, a sill troll.
HeavenSent is, in fact, a silly troll.
I'm pretty sure HS is a troll, and lol is the silly troll. Maybe a distinction without a difference.
Sybil Tom, to have real friends, you have to be a true friend. To be a true friend, you need to follow Jesus.
"HS is a morbidly obese, trailer park queen from Canada."
Hey...that's offensive to Canada. Can we not locate her/him to some trailer park in NC or Southern Alabama or maybe she/he's actually from Afghanistan?
HeavenSent,
Why would you think you can get into heaven when you constantly LIE about Tom and me being one person?
Answer please.
heaven is not gained by works but by grace through faith in the eternal Son of God
Observer, which character of Sybil do you play?
Observer, this HS is just some bozo playing you. It's a troll and not worth the time it takes to respond to it.
Of course sinners living in satan's lies to create denial, hate Jesus Christ's truth that bursts their bubbles.