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 Conservative Christians say their churches have been unprepared for cultural shifts on same-sex marriage.
June 28th, 2013
06:19 PM ET
Conservatives brace for `marriage revolution'By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - With its ivy-covered entrance and Teddy Bear bouquets, Arlene’s Flowers seems an unlikely spot to trigger a culture-war skirmish. Until recently, the Richland, Washington, shop was better known for its artistic arrangements than its stance on same-sex marriage. But in March, Barronelle Stutzman, the shop’s 68-year-old proprietress, refused to provide wedding flowers for a longtime customer who was marrying his partner. Washington state legalized same-sex marriage in December. An ardent evangelical, Stutzman said she agonized over the decision but couldn’t support a wedding that her faith forbids. “I was not discriminating at all,” she said. “I never told him he couldn’t get married. I gave him recommendations for other flower shops.” Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson disagreed, and filed a consumer protection lawsuit against Arlene’s Flowers. The ACLU also sued on behalf of the customer, Robert Ingersoll, who has said Stutzman’s refusal “really hurt, because it was someone I knew.” Among conservative Christians, Stutzman has become a byword - part cautionary tale and part cause celebre. Websites call her a freedom fighter. Tributes fill Arlene’s Facebook page. Donations to her legal defense fund pour in from as far away as Texas and Arkansas. “For some reason, her case has made a lot of people of faith worry,” said Stutzman’s lawyer, Dale Schowengerdt of the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal group. Those anxieties have only increased, conservative Christians say, since the Supreme Court struck down part of the Defense of Marriage Act and opened the door to gay marriage in California. Taking a line from Justice Antonin Scalia's sharp dissent, Southern Baptist scholar Albert Mohler said it’s only a matter of time "before the other shoe drops" – and the high court legalizes same-sex marriage from coast to coast. “Christians will have to think hard — and fast — about these issues and our proper response,” Mohler wrote on Wednesday. “We will have to learn an entire new set of missional skills as we seek to remain faithful to Christ in this fast-changing culture.” His fellow Southern Baptist Russell Moore put the matter more succinctly. “Same-sex marriage is coming to your community.” `The debate is over' Well before the Supreme Court’s rulings, many conservative Christians said they saw the writing - or the poll numbers - on the wall. Survey after survey shows increasing support for same-sex marriage, especially among young Americans. That includes many religious believers. Most Catholics and mainline Protestants, not to mention many Jews, support same-sex relationships, according to surveys. The bells of Washington National Cathedral pealed in celebration on Thursday. Even among those who oppose gay marriage, many think it’s a losing battle. Seventy percent of white evangelicals believe that legal recognition for gay nuptials is inevitable, according to a June poll by the Pew Research Center, though just 22 percent favor it. “The gay marriage debate is over,” said Jonathan Merritt, an evangelical writer on faith and culture. “Statistically, all the numbers move in one direction.” Young Christians have grown up in a far more diverse culture than their forebears, Merritt noted, and many have befriended gays and lesbians. Pew found that more than 90 percent of Americans overall personally know someone who is gay or lesbian, a 30 percent increase since 1993. “It’s far easier to wage war against an agenda than it is to battle a friend,” Merritt said. At the same time, many conservative young Christians say they’re weary of the culture wars, and of seeing their communities labeled “judgmental.” When Christian researchers at the Barna Group asked Americans aged 16-29 what words best describe Christianity, the top response was “anti-homosexual.” That was true of more than 90 percent of non-Christians and 80 percent of churchgoers, according to Barna. Tired of being told the country is slouching toward Gomorrah, many young Christians have simply tuned out the angry prophets of earlier generations, evangelical leaders say. “The shrill angry voices of retrenchment are no longer getting a broad hearing either in the culture at large or in the evangelical community,” Merritt said. But the battle over same-sex marriage is far from over, said Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage. “I don’t believe most Christians are going to give up the fight,” said Brown, who is Catholic. He said his movement includes many young evangelical and Orthodox Christians. “And they are more energized than ever.” Love thy gay neighbors Energized or not, conservative Christians must prepare for the moral dilemmas posed by the country’s growing acceptance of same-sex marriage, said Moore, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. “Is Your Church Ready for the Marriage Revolution?” Moore asked, while promoting a special session on homosexuality at the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting in Houston in June. Many evangelical pastors have seen homosexuality as a distant culture-war battle that’s fought far from the doors of the churches, Moore said. Now, it’s as close as their front pews. “I think it’s not so much that churches haven’t wanted to talk about it,” he said, “but they haven’t recognized how much the culture has changed around them.” The first step, said Moore, is learning to defend traditional marriage without demonizing gays and lesbians. Walking through Washington’s Union Station last Thursday, Moore said he saw several lesbian couples kissing in celebration of the Supreme Court rulings. “If we can’t empathize with what’s going on in their hearts and minds, we’re not going to be able to love and respect them.” Then come a host of secondary questions: How should conservative pastors minister to same-sex couples? Should Christians attend same-sex weddings? Should florists like Barronelle Stutzman's agree to work with gay couples? `Don't give in'  Florist Barronelle Stutzman. In the 17 years she’s owned Arlene’s Flowers, Stutzman said, she’s worked with a number of gay colleagues. “It really didn’t matter if they were gay, or blue or green, if they were creative and could do the job,” she said. Stutzman suspects that some of her eight children privately don’t agree with her on homosexuality, even as they publicly support her decision. Online, Stutzman has been called a bigot, and worse. She said she’s lost at least two weddings because of her refusal to provide services for the same-sex marriage. Conservative activists say her case is the first of what will surely be many more, as gay marriage spreads across the country. As she gets ready to face a judge, the silver-haired florist offered some advice for fellow evangelicals. “Don’t give in. If you have to go down for Christ, what better person to go down for?” soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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@faith,
"u reap what u sew"
No, you might *rip* what you sew (as with a seam-ripper tool), but the saying is, "you reap what you sow".
proof they delete my posts after they have been posted and read. thanks frayed
That post is still there (as of now), @faith - at 5:31 pm, but yeah, I made my reply separate just to see what happens.
Sure, it'll probably be deleted - do you *really* wonder why, though?
lol
There have usually been three reasons for getting married: love, secks, and money. Secks, a human need, is usually available. Love is harder to come by. But no government license is required for the first two. Heteros have spent the last fifty years insisting on this – "Its only a piece of paper." So why get married? Its the money. Gays want the monetary advantages of marriage. So already, gays are getting married for the poorest reason. This seems to take the sheen off the kumbaya moment liberals have been enjoying.
You have no idea why all gays are getting married. Yes, the main reason for many might be fiscal. But my guess is that just like others, gays are getting married for a variety of reasons.
There are multiple reasons behind getting married, whether you are straight or gay. Yes, some of those reasons are monetary. Some involve basic rights like immigration and visitation, not to mention parental rights and custody rights, etc.
The point is., it shouldn't matter what the reason is. All American citizens should be afforded the same right to marry for whatever reason they desire.
Gay couples get married for the exact same reasons as straight couples, yes, monetary advantages, custody issues, estate law, immigration for your partner, default medical status, court rights in legal defense and, if religious, to formalize a union. If any of those things are silly for gay couples, they are equally silly for straight couples.
{ ! },
So gays don't want to get married because of love?
Are you serious or just trying to be a comedian?
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!REMO_INVITE
u asked 4 it
"You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down." lol
deceitful practices
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!REMO_INVITE
u asked 4 it
"You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down." lol
deceitful practices
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
All of this centers around a persistent cookie called s_vi, which stores the visitor ID provided by Omniture's servers whenever a user first visits ...
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
2 late girls
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!REMO_INVITE
u asked 4 it
"You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down." lol
deceitful practices
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!REMO_INVITE
u asked 4 it
"You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down." lol
deceitful practices
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
All of this centers around a persistent cookie called s_vi, which stores the visitor ID provided by Omniture's servers whenever a user first visits ...
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
2 late girls
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
All of this centers around a persistent cookie called s_vi, which stores the visitor ID provided by Omniture's servers whenever a user first visits ...
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
2 late girls
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
All of this centers around a persistent cookie called s_vi, which stores the visitor ID provided by Omniture's servers whenever a user first visits ...
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
2 late girls
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
liars
u reap what u sew
this will be the largest class action anti-terror free speech gig in history
To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. (5:48)
Who ever Moore is, of the Southern Baptist Convention, he doesn't get it. “If we can’t empathize with what’s going on in their hearts and minds, we’re not going to be able to love and respect them.” Dear Moore, we don't want your empathy. We don't want anything from you, and you have nothing to offer. We expect to be treated equally under the law, exactly like you are. You've shown your love and respect, and well, you can shove it!
I favor a return to the traditional definition of marriage.....like with Abraham. When his wife got old he got a stable full of concubines.
Or maybe we could go with the many wives of Solomon.
Marriage, like race, is societally defined. It is whatever we imagine it to be. But conservatives are not noted for their creativvity, just the rigid but vivid fantasy world they inhabit that is shuarply separate from reality here on earth.
I would never get in the way of a straight person's desire to have a polygamous marriage.
This is a tough call, but unfortunately it should only be hers to make. Every business owner has the right to refuse service to someone. I myself am gay and completely respect her decision, its hers to make, she shouldn't be punished for it. I don't expect many conservative Christians to be happy with the recent decision but it was made and we all have to live with it, myself included. I'm in a state that has marriage defined as between one man and one woman and am quite content with that law. I don't agree with how the gay community has gone about it and just shoved everything down everyone's throat and told them to deal with it and accept it. Its the same battle the blacks went through for years and when congress said you all have to play nice, it got real nasty for a long time and now, we have done the same thing to the Christian community and expect them to be happy about it. We need to respect them and their views just as much as we're asking that they respect ours or we will get nowhere.
You are most likely 100% wrong! Washington State prohibits discrimination based on orientation.
@Adam, if the local hospital chooses not to serve her is that OK? If the private apartment building refuses someone based on race is that OK? If every decent apartment complex in a segregation era refused housing to someone is that OK?
@Adam......Talk about stabbing yourself in the back! You have ZERO back bone. If slaves had the same mentality you have, blacks would still be in chains (in addition to others). Civil rights is not an debatable issue! Rights are rights i don't care who's happy or not. Tell them to grow up.
Adam
I do not believe that you are who you claim to be.
Switch "Gay" with "Black, White, Hispanic, etc" and it looks a lot like discrimination to me, so how is refusing service to anyone based on such inane terms not discrimination?
No one has answered this question I have asked for days; Since this women caused no actual monetary harm (damages) what should her fine be? I would fine her $5 unless the state can prove she caused actual monetary harm. (Than I would fine her 4 times the amount of the monetary harm she caused).
@jazz....................it's not about the money. It's about rights. You can't put a value on rights. Would you trade your rights for cash? Would you give up freedom for cash?
Hi Adam
As a closeted gay, Christian man myself, I have to respectfully disagree. There are innumerable inconsistencies in the way people, in general and Christians in particular, express their deeply held convictions. Please watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=striKP3A84w and answer this question: If this florist, as part of her personal religious beliefs, had refused business to the biracial couple in the video, would that have been acceptable on the grounds of freedom of expression of religion? (As an aside, I really wonder how much she vets her clientele: Would she, for example, deny flowers to a fornicating man buying for his live-in girlfriend or for Rush Limbaugh's almost inevitable 5th wedding?)
Furthermore, as far as civil liberties are concerned, one must realise that often, certain liberties must genuflect to accommodate a greater good. A case in point is that while the first ammendment generally allows freedom of speech, this right is waived in a court of law where people, in the interest of justice, are compelled to answer truthfully. Thus, I submit to you that the florist should be compelled, in the interest of equality of all citizens, to serve a customer, so long as his intentions after receiving the goods/services in question are honorable before the law (i.e. "not illegal" which is not always the same as "legal"), irrespective of her own personal convictions.
Caveat emptor (buyer beware) is a common law saying which I think applies more to the seller in this case. Before you open a business, realise that it may require you to take decisions that contravene your own personal moral code. The unfortunate/fortunate reality is that America is, for all intents and purposes, a secular state, and thus operates under secular principles which may or may not have had their roots in Christian ethics (that is irrelevant); therefore, any opposition to these principles must be attended to before entering into a legally binding contract with the state. I personally believe that this florist, with her actions spit in the face of the state, business ethics, a long-time and loyal client and the gently loving yet stern and discerning ethic of Christ.
AfricanAmerican912 – Thanks, you've given me something to think about.
Peter; Read your reply. Ok so being racist isn't a protected class. So can I assume that discrimination should only be actionable (i.e. one can sue), when one is a member of a protected class? Well isn't one's religion (or lack of) a protected class. e.g. if the flower shop women didn't sell to Muslims that would be actionable. Thus only the buyer has a right to class protection not the seller. HEY, I clearly understand why the law is set up that way. I just want people to openly admit they are denying the seller freedom's (i.e. that the buyers rights trump the sellers).
OK the supreme court made the (correct) ruling. We have gay marriage in 13 states and counting. Where's god outrage? Where's god signal showing how upset he is? Please don't quote the bible. Obviously it matters as much as a losing lottery ticket.
Please tell/show us how your hetero marriage is affected. Have you stopped loving your spouse? Have you kicked your kids out? Did your pregnant wife suddenly miscarriage?
Please ask your god to give a specific signal. Something simple like raise the dead.
Raising the dead is too mundane. I want to see an amputee grow their limb back.
How about having a handicapped person walk.
It is not possible for a god to have a "plan" for future people, if the same people have the "freedom of choice" to choose whether to commit r-pe and m-rder. Depending on on the choices made, the future population will end up having quite different individuals from the those in the original "plan".
Which is clear evidence that the key "supernatural" claims in the bible are all untrue and unreliable.
Here's a dose of reality for you folks. Gay marriage is advancing faster than any other civil rights issue in the history of this nation. In a few years, those of you who are fighting against it will be doing what those who stood against integrated schools are doing now. Lying about which side you were on.
Good, Gadflie. A classic quote which, with your kind permission, I would like to use myself (with appropriate credit, of course).
Why do Christians even bother to worship a powerless god?
You can say that about any religion. Why do Muslims worship Allah? etc. etc. The reasons are the same. #1 because they have been told to do this. #2 Money. If god were to kill the devil, why go to church? why worship? The money train would end. Simple as that.
And, #3, they are deluded by years of conditioning that their fictitious "god" truly is powerful. And they just cannot see the plain truth.
#4 They would feel foolish admitting that they believe in something that isn't real. (Especially after giving up their money)
Right you are, Ken. They have just too much emotional investment to admit they're wrong. It's a social thing; they can't admit to their relatives and friends that they've been wrong for all those years. So they can't stir the pot, so to speak. Personally, I never had the problem of changing horses midstream, but I can imagine what it must be like later in life.
Why are atheists always so angry about Christians? Geez, live and let live I say. It's funny, they are always saying how hate-filled and stupid Christians are but when I read the comments from atheists on subjects like this I always find them hate-filled and stupid too.
@sally..................Atheists aren't angry. We don't blindly accept what someone says. I question what other atheists say as well.
sally: when christians stop trying to legislate their beliefs, come back and talk to us
Unless you are under the age of puberty, "Why do people get married?" is a rhetorical question., and most likely trolling.
Such questoins would be more appreciated if you first responded to the many sensible and honest answers to your earlier similar trolling questions.
Marriage is a LEGAL matter with optional religious involvement.
Just like death. There's no obligation to have any kind of funeral service, just a requirement to dispose of the body under legal restrictions. You can have someone's body cremated without a church service, for example, but you probably can't bake those ashes into brownies for consumption after a church service.
Did Peter just say marriage is like death?
Well, for some it may seem that way!
Like birth, death, adoption...
Why do people get married?
Angie,
If they follow the Bible, it isn't because they love each other at all (they might hate each other), but because God forces them to.
To fulfill themselves spiritually, emotionally and physically and to provide a haven and sanctuary for themselves and their offspring.
I always love how the atheist don't have a positive answer for their philosophy but are quick to distort and vilify the Christian view.
That's a damn good question! 🙂 All jokes aside, It's a business decision. There are certain rights, privileges and commitments that go with marriage. I wish more women would insist on marriage. It would give them more legal rights in the event of divorce.
"Love?" Really? Wow. I don't love it when Christians prove that they would rather pretend knowledge with supreme arrogance; I feel sorry for those individuals.
#1reason we got married, to spare our children from the hurt the largely christian society inflicts upon "bastard" children.
Bill Deacon
"I always love how the atheist don't have a positive answer for their philosophy but are quick to distort and vilify the Christian view."
lol. God commands that marriage can be forced onto people even if they hate each other.
Do you read a Bible at all?
@hot......I didn't get married for my child's sake. I got married in '96 at 32. It was time FOR ME AND MY WIFE. We had a daughter before and after we got married. I would love them both unconditionally whether we were married or not. Screw society. Republicans are trying to take away a woman's right to choose whether they are married or not. You can't do things based on society's view.
@angie: one word................................MONEY.
all the other "pretty" little reasons you marry, it basically boils down to MONEY.
I largely agree with you however I also believe that our children should not suffer when it is possible to do something easy, if not trivial, to prevent any harm. The point wasn't to cave in to society's views, it was to protect any children. And of course, we do all do many things because of society's views. Our body of laws represents society's views and almost everyone follows the law, therefore society's views.
@WASP.........I know some poor people that have gotten married. So money isn't everything. MONEY is the reason for pre nups.
@hot......................Society treats EVERYBODY like poop. We can't get gun control because people don't care. We have people against health care because people don't care. We had presidential campaign based on screwing poor people because he didn't care. People don't care. So why should you do things based on society's view?
Ken, I guess I'm just a dumazz Canuck that is lazy due to having reasonable (but not as much as I would like) gun control, reasonable (but not perfect) health care, without rampant (but some corrupt) political spending.
@hot.........You're not an dumbazz. You're hopeful. You see things a little brighter than most. I'm mad at democrats for being a va,gina and I'm mad at republicans for lying. You said you're a canuck, are you from Canada?
Flowers are the s-xual reproduction organs of plants, and many contain already fertilized cells.
Cutting flowers (as a requirement to offer them for sale for profit without selling the whole plant intact) is the equivalent of ab-rtion for plants.
Mary,
Just ask all your hetero friends who engage in sodomy.
Have conservative Christians ever considered defining marriage for themselves rather than others? They judge others and try to legally force their beliefs. How do you define "bully"?
Have conservative Christians ever considered defining marriage for themselves rather than others? NO
How do you define "bully"? Conservative Christian.
I hope she won't mind her husband stoning her or their daughters, without trial, if they are just accused of any inappropriate meetings with non family men.
Christianity is losing its grip on the weak-minded lawmakers of this country. I never thought I'd see it, let alone witness how fast it is happening. Sure would be nice to see Christianity relegated to community churches where it belongs. It has no place in the legislative process of our government.
I agree its happening faster than expected but one must also remember that the Christian as a major player in American politics is a somewhat recent event. Despite what many Christians would have you believe this country wasn’t founded by Christians. Many forget the original settlers came here to escape religious oversight. Our founding fathers were manly Deists, Free Mason and secularist with a few Christians. (look it up) Our currency didn’t always have “In God We Trust” on it and the Pledge of Allegiance didn’t have “Under God”. These were only added in the last hundred years or so by vocal minorities. Essentially the Christians took over our country the same way they are afraid Muslims are trying to.