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 The UK Church of Satan says it supports a variety of views on abortion. But is the church real?
July 9th, 2013
03:27 PM ET
Satanists square off on abortion (Yes, really)By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN)- Are Satanists for or against abortion? Apparently, there's a hot debate. A group calling itself the "UK Church of Satan" on Twitter says it's open minded, tweeting out "Why Wouldn't Satanism be pro-life?" on July 5. But the High Priest of the New York-based Church of Satan says it's squarely in the abortion-rights corner. How to settle this diabolical duel? Let's back up first. As Texas legislators debated a law last week that would restrict abortions in the Lone Star State, a group of abortion rights protesters tried to drown out a group of anti-abortion protesters at the state capitol by chanting "Hail Satan!" The phrase trended on Twitter. Megapastor Rick Warren rapped our wrists (and The Associated Press's, too) for not covering the "Hail Satan" serenade. Actually, pastor, our man Josh Rubin was on the ball. The UK Church of Satan (assuming it's real) jumped on the trend, tweeting on July 3:
Which raises the question: What does Satanism represent? We asked the New York-based Church of Satan, and we got an earful. First of all, Magus Peter H. Gilmore, High Priest of the Church of Satan, told us, there is no "UK Church of Satan." "I have not authorized any of our UK members to create such a thing claiming to represent our organization, its members and our philosophy," Gilmore said. "So, whoever is behind that feed is committing a fraud." Gilmore's group, which, unlike the UK church, has a website, also keeps a P.O. Box in New York City. (Radio City Station of all places. Watch out, Rockettes.) As a matter of policy, the Church of Satan doesn't give out exact membership numbers, the magus said, but it's in the thousands. "Our organization, founded by Anton LaVey in 1966, is worldwide," Gilmore told CNN in an e-mail, "and we have many members throughout the UK and none of them have heard of any self-proclaimed 'Church of Satan in England.' There was a hoax using a title like this a year or so ago as a political prank." We put the question to the UK Church of Satan, who said, "There is no 'UK' Church of Satan. It's worldwide. We represent and connect those followers 'in' the UK." We've followed up with more questions but haven't heard back yet. To be sure, the UK Satanists' tweets have been surprisingly unsulfurous. Take this one, for example:
Or this sweet-natured nugget:
This is a church that worships the Prince of Darkness? And who in hell is JMG? Getting back to abortion, here's what the supposed UK Church of Satan said:
Yeah, kinda, Gilmore told CNN. But there's much more to it than that. Many Satanists practice "rational birth control," saith Satanism's high priest, leaving matters of personal morality up to individuals. "We generally consider the use of abortion to be the purview of the woman whose body is carrying the child," Gilmore said. "We consider sexual experiences to be an indulgence between consenting adults that should be taken seriously, particularly when the possibility of pregnancy is concerned." But the magus didn't appreciate hearing the name of his lord taken in vain. "Shouting `Hail Satan!' to abortion protesters is both ludicrous and meaningless," said Gilmore, who's led the Church of Satan since 2001. "Only attention-seeking fools would do so." Unsurprisingly, Satanists take a strong stand on separation of church and state, believing the government "should be entirely secular." "So religion should neither force upon nor deny an abortion for any woman, in our thinking," Gilmore said. "Freedom with responsibility is the hallmark of civilized behavior to the Satanist." Now that that's settled, what's the Satanic stance on gay marriage? *** In a follow-up email, Gilmore made it clear that Satanists don't actually deify Satan. In fact, they're atheist, he said, and use Satan as a "symbol of pride, liberty and individualism." "If you chose to mock us, then you should have done so based on what our philosophy actually is, rather than on an assumed `horror film' stereotype," the magus said. Fair criticism. We'll try to improve our coverage of Satanism. Oh, one more thing. Gilmore said the Church of Satan does approve of same-sex marriage.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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The mind brightly beholding what the eye cannot discern.
I'll take things that are not real for $500.
So satanists are no different than other believers.
This is news?
exactly. all look same.
It's not news if you don't read it. What do the members of the church of satan believe, again?
Hello Johnny,
Our civilized potencies are morally constrained figments of personalized philosophies. Though the sons of God love a good fight now & then, we are their brunt's jokes in the fabrics of religious identities lingering animosities.
Atheists aren't that different from believers, either. We are all human beings.
High 5 "imagination",
The ventriloquists of our humane verbal fundamentalisms are but like lunacies of mental arborists who become jealous regarding differing sensualists whose only ills are to recreations of sensualistic pleasing outrightly set apart from the emotionally disturbed religious fundamentalists who seem to be fixated in their arbitrary mindset issues of straight lined sensualistic commonalities complacencies. We are all more than the products summations.
'lionlylamb2013
High 5 "imagination",
The ventriloquists of our humane verbal fundamentalisms are but like lunacies of mental arborists who become jealous regarding differing sensualists whose only ills are to recreations of sensualistic pleasing outrightly set apart from the emotionally disturbed religious fundamentalists who seem to be fixated in their arbitrary mindset issues of straight lined sensualistic commonalities complacencies. We are all more than the products summations.'
sorry but what do you actually hope to convey when you post such nonsense? because i can tell you that you come across as a real i diot witha thesaurus fixation.
Satan's not so bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo4XXm8OUP4
I see cnn, has reached a new low in meaningless and absurdity. Stupidest article i ever seen in my life, maybe cnn should send some of it -'journalists'. out broom sweep the parking lot, if they are so bored they have to publish something as retarded as this.
Hardly. You haven't been around here long enough.
i've seen articles just as stupid, like "Image of Jesus found on French toast" or "Statue of Mary cries tears of blood."
Bootyfunk – Look up Jack Traynor and Gabriel Gargam. 2 miracles at Lourdes that were examined by doctors who were not Christians.
Then look up the 'Miracle of the Sun' at Fatima, Portugal. Witnessed by 70.000 people! And before you say it – Portugal was a Communist/Atheist country at the time and almost all of the 70,000 were Communist/Atheist also.....................so no nonsense about "brainwashed Catholics etc etc please.
Just read those accounts and come back with the same trite disclaimers as you used here – IF you can.
The trouble with non-believers is they spout forth naïve statements with no FACTS to back them up.
and/or "Vatican: Pope John Paul II close to sainthood"
those "miracles" are all bullsh.it. how come god never cures amputees?
@AMGD,
I thought we were discussing stupid articles on CNN?
@Løki:
Gut gespielt!
'Then look up the 'Miracle of the Sun' at Fatima, Portugal. Witnessed by 70.000 people! And before you say it – Portugal was a Communist/Atheist country at the time and almost all of the 70,000 were Communist/Atheist also.....................so no nonsense about "brainwashed Catholics etc etc please.'
No they werent, the majority of the people there were believers who went there because of the claims. Mass hysteria events arent exactly unknown, and if you stand there staring at the sun then yeah you can expect something to happen to your eyesight, such as afterimages of the sun dancing across the sky as you move your eyes. There were also a number of people that claimed they saw nothing strange happen.
Ad majorem,
"Portugal was a Communist/Atheist country at the time and almost all of the 70,000 were Communist/Atheist "
Why do you lie about this? (well, I know *why*, but you really need to stop it)
This is interesting. The quandary is, I think, is that God exists, but Satan does not.
@rick: ummmmmmmm i would say re-read the first book AGAIN. 🙂
NO, you're wrong. Satan only exists because god does. I don't believe in a god...therefore I don't believe in a satan. Think about it...there is no satan other than in the bible. Satan is the christian devil. Each religion has it's own satan. Without religion there is no satan.
Why should we believe God exsists? Especially since Satan was mentioned in the good book. Same book that speaks about God.
I have no idea why some believe that in order for God to exist, Satan must exist, and vice-versa, but one is not a prerequisite for the other. In fact if Satan does exist, it means that God is not in full control. Either that or God has relinquished control over his creation in order to allow Satan to tempt, kill, maim, seduce, and otherwise bring evil into a world where it is neither welcome nor wanted. So if Satan exists and is allowed to do evil, who is to blame for that? Satan, or God? And no, don't come at me with the "free will" argument. If God ultimately punishes and banishes to hell all those who don't accept him, then where is the free will in that? And doesn't God know in advance who will ultimately be saved and those who won't? If God doesn't know, then what else does He not know, and what else can God not control?
Rick – the laws of Physics say that everything has an opposite:-
Magnetic poles
activity and inertia
hot and cold
dark and light
good and evil..............etc
So, by reason and logic – God IS and Satan IS.
He wants us to do it. We are capable. We are not robots. We are not forced to love God and other people. Satan choose to defy God and hate people. God lets him choose that and Satan will have to deal with all those consequences.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
"Rick – the laws of Physics say that everything has an opposite:-
So, by reason and logic – God IS and Satan IS."
By reason and logic they both might not exist.
@ Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam said: " Rick – the laws of Physics say that everything has an opposite:-
Magnetic poles
activity and inertia
hot and cold
dark and light
good and evil..............etc
So, by reason and logic – God IS and Satan IS."
Actually something tells me that God is not bound by the laws of physics as we understand them. Either that, or again God is not in full control because God is bound by the laws of physics. Either God is omnipotent and omniscient or He is not.
Who perpetrates evil in the world? Satan? No, it is humanity collectively, and people individually, that perpetrate evil on others. Man is dark-hearted enough to provide more than enough evil to go around without the necessity of an "opposite" to God. God is all there is, and evil comes into existence when we move so far away from God's love and compassion that we as individuals manifest its opposite – that is, we manifest evil. No Satan required.
@Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,
"the laws of Physics say that everything has an opposite:-"
There is no such law.
Cold is the absence of heat.
dark is the absence of light.
Gravity only attracts.
'Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
Rick – the laws of Physics say that everything has an opposite:-
Magnetic poles
activity and inertia
hot and cold
dark and light
good and evil..............etc
So, by reason and logic – God IS and Satan IS'
no they dont, the 'laws of physics' say no such thing. what are you on about?
Ad Majorem,
Isaac Newton, who described that "law", even though he was most likely a genius, was also hugely into occult studies - numerology and alchemy, etc. He died, though (aww!). I'll bet he could've figured out a way to come back and fill us in on all of that stuff... IF it were real.
Ad Majorem,
Harry Houdini, who could wriggle his way out of *anything*, PROMISED to come back and tell us (or his wife, at least) what's up. A no show.
@AD: "activity and inertia
hot and cold
dark and light
good and evil."
please stop you're killing me! i'm laughing so hard at your total ignorance my sides are hurting. XD
cold is the ABSENCE of heat
dark is the ABSENCE of light
the other ones are just plain WRONG!
"activity and inertia" huh? i'm guessing you're meaning potential and kinetic energy, both are energy one is involved in motion the other while something is at rest. inertia is what makes your head smash a windshield during a car accident; the car stops, inertia keeps your body moving.
energy has opposite attractive forces, positive and negetive. these two forces are what make weak and strong bonds inside an atom that allows energy to bind together to make matter.
for the love of christ, stop talking you are way too dumb for the internet. 🙂
WASP,
Otoh, @Ad Majorem is not alone - lots of folks share his/her ideas. It gives us a forum to discuss these things in real time, and not be accused of setting up strawmen. (unless he/she is a Poe; but I know what these religions adhere to and preach - all of these zealots can't be Poes)
Liberals kill babies as an offering to their god (themselves).
Satanists wait until after the baby is born.
kinda like the catholic church who covered up the crimes of child abuse..
How the heck did you survive childhood by being as stupid as you are?
or the church helping to spread HIV/AIDs by telling people not to use condoms. gotta breed new christian zombies after all...
Palin loving moron...
You don't have to be a liberal to respect reproductive rights. Also, if I jack it, am I committing genocide? Pro-life logic would imply that I am.
Hello Deep,
Humane rationalisms are intellectually contrived without emotional motives pinning blatancies toward religious waywardness issues. You emotionalism is faulty and your intellectual hindsight needs a little more grooming.
God tortures his enemies forever in a pit of fire even though he tells us to love our enemies. I guess he's the winner on this list.
@DeepeThought – Not really that deep. How about 'ShallowThought'?
No, Deepe, you're lying as usual.
There are no "babies" killed in an abortion. A fetus is terminated. That's the legal AND MEDICAL terminology.
Please stop lying, Deepe.
From the research I did on Satanism, most of them, in their core, are atheists. Instead of believing that some higher power is accountable for everything good (praise be to God), or bad (another term for this is "scapegoat"), they believe that they, themselves are responsible for the good and bad in their lives. They're pretty well grounded, and no, true Satanists don't sacrifice anything. It was one of 14 religions I've been researching most of my life. Theology is a very interesting topic.
Satanic principalities are a noteworthy underpinning within the framed structures of rationalized Christian barbarisms that dare feeds upon the non-intellectual perverts within the emotional fabrics of their Christian tribes that are portentous in their vile criticisms of Godly referendums.
principalities
portentous
Why do you use this word? I do not think it means what you think it means.
Hello priestly Judas,
"These words" and not this word would be better received in your attempts to defame my staunch written verbalized vernaculars.
Just ignore LL's diarrhea word salads. He serves them up constantly but none of them make any sense.
It is a movie line. A very well-known one, and totally appropriate.
Are you some sort of search engine script or expert system? Because you're flunking the Turing test.
How is this story about Satanists squaring off on anything other than who is a legitimate Satanist? Lol
To all Satanists: This is how it ends for you and your god. Get out while you can!
Revelation 20:7-10
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
you forgot the part before that where jesus opens his daddy's seven seals and murders 2/3 of the human population. jesus releases death, famine, war, plague, etc., killing men women and children. next to god, jesus has the highest kill count in the bible.
amen.
if you subscribe to those myths. even most of the christians i know don't believe all that nonsense.
Gotterdammerung (Ragnarok) is nigh! It will be preceded by Fimbulvetr, the winter of winters. Three such winters will follow each other with no summers in between. Conflicts and feuds will break out, even between families, and all morality will disappear. This is the beginning of the end.
The wolf Skoll will finally devour the sun, and his brother Hati will eat the moon, plunging the Midgard (Earth) into darkness. The stars will vanish from the sky. The cock Fjalar will crow to the giants and the golden cock Gullinkambi will crow to the gods. A third cock will raise the dead.
The earth will shudder with earthquakes, and every bond and fetter will burst, freeing the terrible wolf Fenrir. The sea will rear up because Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent, is twisting and writhing in fury as he makes his way toward the land. With every breath, Jormungand will stain the soil and the sky with his poison. The waves caused by the serpent's emerging will set free the ship Naglfar, and with the giant Hymir as their commander, the giants will sail towards the battlefield. From the realm of the dead a second ship will set sail, and this ship carries the inhabitants of hell, with Loki as their helmsman. The fire giants, led by the giant Surt, will leave Muspell in the south to join against the gods. Surt, carrying a sword that blazes like the sun itself, will scorch the earth.
Bootyfunk..........now that's your choice which side your on and whether you choose eternal life or suffering and death at the hands of your god. Just like do you chose to walk out in front of a train today or not. Don't be stupid.
amen.
snowboarder............follow the crowd in disbelief and drown or get on the ship and find safety. But when it happens, and IT WILL HAPPEN, then don't whine and blame God because you were warned. Ever heard of Damascus becoming a ruinious heap. Coincidence? Think again! He's on His way back, the crowd and satanist will let you drown.
The train is visible, detectable, and scheduled. You can't compare that to god. lol
someone that wastes their life following a book of fairy tales talking about "stupid"? now that's funny.
free advice: live a good life, help your brothers and sisters when you can, think for yourself
don't need religion for any of that - in fact, religion hinders those goals.
Løki..........THE BLOOD OF YESHUA!
Nobody's forcing god to be an azzhole, here, and it's stupid to blame the people he's being an azzhole to.
@hunter, fear is the greatest tool of the religious. your deities don't scare me any more than anyone else's.
Given that you have exactly zero evidence AtheistHunter, that is a rather dubious claim – to say the least.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
sure there's proof. You can't see if you don't take your hands off your eyes. i could stand in the rain and yell that it is not raining but guess what, I'll still get wet. All of you are soaking wet!
Atheist Hunter,
It would take less than 5 seconds for God to prove to everyone he exists. That is asking too much of him to "save" billions and billions of souls.
snowboarder............oh you're scared alright. There is not other reason that atheists would spend all day on a religion blog. You know it's true and that you are a sinner headed to hell so you stay here in groups to try and make each other feel better about your sinful lives. the answer if Jesus! The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom! Wise up!
Holy St Michael, the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle
Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil – May God rebuke him we humbly pray –
And do you, O Prince of the Heavenly hosts, by the Power of God thrust down to hell Satan and all his wicked spirits who prowl the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.
There are verses in all holy books that are "consistent" with science, but that doesn't mean that everything in the book is accurate or that the statements are scientific. The Koran is just as "consistent" with science as that site claims the bible is. Heck, there are Mother Goose rhymes with some portions that are "consistent" with science.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam:
Message undeliverable. Addressee "Holy St. Michael" is not locatable. Please verify that the addressee exists.
Cpt. Obvious.................the key is ALL VERSES CONSISTENT! Check it out, you are very wrong!
http://www.islam-watch.org/MohdZaidan/MZ_KoranContradiction.htm
'Atheist Hunter
......oh you're scared alright. There is not other reason that atheists would spend all day on a religion blog. You know it's true and that you are a sinner headed to hell so you stay here in groups to try and make each other feel better about your sinful lives'
uh huh, okaaaay then. no other reason why atheists would reply on a religion blog other than they know its true? interesting logic. If i posted on a holocaust deniers blog would that mean i think it was a hoax as well? or i post on a kkk blog that it must mean i really agree that whites are superior?
@hunter, we're here for the entertainment. no need to project your fear on us.
@Atheist Hunter – Awwwwwwwwwww. That is the sweetest story. As a wee lad, I would be nestled under my covers with my head poking out, thinking about that last verse, "...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
"forever........ and ever......" (sigh) - Isn't God the dreamiest?
"http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml – sure there's proof."
Nothing on that site would be considered proof, just excuses being made in an attempt to reconcile the bibles fiction with what we now know about the world around us. It's like saying that when Thomas Jefferson said "The glow of one warm thought is to me worth more than money." he was being divinely inspired to understand the bio-electrical activity in our brains that allow us to have thoughts. No, he was using a metaphor to describe an experience familiar to him, nothing more. And when the bible say's something about the weight of the wind it was bronze age herdsmen who had felt more than a few stiff breezes describing it, not divine inspiration from God letting those herdsmen know that air has a measurable weight.
You say you will never see if you don't take your hands off your eyes and yet refuse to look at the world from any other perspective than your own Hebrew God derived universe and you will make or accept any excuse that allows you to keep believing you are right.
@hunter: " There is not other reason that atheists would spend all day on a religion blog."
ummmm yes there is. my over paying job gives me loads of free time to just sit here nd mess with you folks. i get board of reading and playing games because i complete my tasks rather quickly, so yes i will enjoy my excellent check and enjoy messing with you lost sheep when i'm bored. lmfao
'Atheist Hunter
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
sure there's proof.'
sorry but were we meant to take that site seriously? Talking about trying hard to force a connection, they even try to claim a passage talked about hydrothermal vents, and that the word for dragon, with fire breathing and all, really means dinosaur.
You dont help your cause by directly people to such sites.
@Atheist Hunter,
"the key is ALL VERSES CONSISTENT! Check it out, you are very wrong!"
No, if taken literally, many verses are not consistent with science. The order and timing of the creation week does not match evolution and the fossil record, a global flood as described is not evident in the geologic record as would be expected, the stopped sun in Joshua's story would have caused major destruction that would be apparent in archaeology, etc.
ME II
There is no reason to expect a literal interpretation of the Bible to be correct for the periods prior to Abraham. In the old testament we see oral tradition that was passed along in a form easy to remember. In the New Testament Jesus made it clear he spoke in parables so only those inclined towards God could see.
That very truth is clear when we read the flood story as false because of current knowable geology which is limited to known physical laws. The same applies to Genesis.
@FRED: if the first chapter in a book is known to be fiction, then why on earth would anyone expect the rest to be NON-FICTION merely because a character in that same story said so? XD
if it starts out a lie, it's all a lie. 🙂
ME II
You forget the original deception which was belief in the natural (serpent) over the spiritual. Simple doubt that what God says is true allowed the natural into focus. The natural looked pleasing stirring desires previously unknown. Man now had the knowledge of Good and evil.
That deception is the same today as in the beginning where you for example see only the natural yet something else is about and you seek it or at a minimum curiosity is stirred. As in the beginning you must doubt the natural and look the other direction. If you are chosen then you will see it is the serpents deception (naturalism) that has kept you in the dark while the light of life is in the truth of God. This is why Christians see atheists as being lost and try to bring them back to reality.
WASP
I did not say it was a lie. Moses wrote to an audience and with a purpose onto God. The Word of God is not in the letters of the Bible but that which is spoken into your heart as you read. When one takes a literal approach to say the flood story it is not the Word of God. The Flood story is about how difficult it is in this world to remain faithful to God as the world carries on in its own desires and mocks Noah over 120 years while building a boat in a desert that has never seen rain. Judgment is coming to the mockers and those consumed with the things of this world and it will be sudden and final. There are only two types of souls those who find favor in the eyes of the Lord and the rest. Those who find favor are lifted above the storms of life under the watchful eye of God to the highest mountain (heaven).
WASP
Now, consider the atheist that looks to geology, hydrology, meteorology, physics etc. in order to discredit the Bible. Jesus said seek and you shall find. The atheist has found what he was looking for but that is not the whole story. There is a reason the atheist is looking to discredit and mock in contrast with a strictly scientific enquiry. An unbiased scientist would realize this oral tradition was put to writing 3,400 years ago as an teaching point to a chosen people not a lecture series at MIT.
The story is consistent with the Bible taken as a whole so there is no reason to doubt the teaching point for believers.
WASP
The first chapter? It starts with "In the beginning God" If you cannot understand that I agree with you, no sense going any further.
Next words "created the heavens and the earth". There is no Hebrew word for all known matter and energy so there remains theological debate over the two possible options for this phrase. I am not a theologian but I can see both possibilities neither of which impact the Word God is getting across so I ignore it. I understand how some old earth believers use this to justify a 13.8 billion year old universe, but that is not why the Bible was written.
The order of creation reads better as spiritual poetry which rings true yet I assume your issue is related to current physical and cosmological order:
Let there be light, let there be atmosphere, let there be vegetation, Let there be lights to serve as signs (sun, moon etc), Let the water and sky have living creatures, Let the land have living creatures of which man was the last created then God rested from creation.
I see no problem in the order of creation. We cannot argue about the nature of the light 3 billion years ago because we do not have the data.
'Let there be light, let there be atmosphere, let there be vegetation, Let there be lights to serve as signs (sun, moon etc), Let the water and sky have living creatures, Let the land have living creatures of which man was the last created then God rested from creation.
I see no problem in the order of creation.'
Except that land creatures came before 'sky creatures' you mean? or life in the seas before plant life on land?
Cedar Rapids
What? Genesis 1 order is; light, water/atmosphere, dry land, vegetation, visible solar system (sun, moon etc), water creatures, birds, land animals then man.
fred
"Now, consider the atheist that looks to geology, hydrology, meteorology, physics etc. in order to discredit the Bible."
Wrong. People look to to geology, hydrology, meteorology, physics etc. in order to find truth.
The problem is they find so many things that disagree with the Bible.
Observer
That is what I said. Intellectually honest people use science for its intended purpose. Atheists do not when they use science to mock and comment where it does not apply. Attacking the flood story based on science is like attacking Aesop's Fable The Tortoise and the Hare with scientific evidence related to the anatomic structure of a tortoise vs the hare. Nonsense.
fred,
"honest people use science for its intended purpose. Atheists do not when they use science to mock and comment where it does not apply"
So atheists are wrong to use the truths in geology, hydrology, meteorology, physics etc. to point out nonsense in the Bible?
Do you realize just how foolish your argument is? So it's not fair to bring scientific truth into Bible discussions. Get serious. Where else are scientific truths not allowed?
I did like your statement complaining about using scientific facts to mock the Bible.
No, fred. Your argument certainly doesn't hold water and your comparison can be eliminated as invalid. The latter fables that you reference, Aesop's, are not being claimed to be of actual events like your other fable, the bible-sourced one. Additionally, if beliefs do not stand up to the rigors of scientific investigations and reason, then one would reasonably think that it is the beliefs that should be in question, and severely so, more than the science.
Sue
I recall a study to see if serpents could talk and low and behold there was a debate between atheist and fundamentalist which finally broke down into God can do anything vs. physiology. Both miss the point of the Bible and completely failed to hear the Word of God.
The explanation of how evil came into our world had little to do with a serpent. The voice of a serpent to this day remains the best way to explain how doubt enters a soul that had no reason to doubt.
fred,
Let me get this straight:
You choose to believe the Bible when it picks on gays and choose NOT to believe the Bible when it talks about Noah's ark.
Is this correct? Yes or no?
Please try to answer and not run away as you often do.
Observer
The Bible does not pick on gays. There are fewer that 11 verses concerning homosexuality being sin. I don't see you demonstrating against Greeks because of their promotion of pederasty in ancient times. You are some hypocrite.
Why are you so hung up on gays? If you are concerned that you will not get into heaven because you are gay the Bible does not hold orientation against you. Orientation is not a prerequisite for the Kingdom of Heaven. It is you who rejects Christ not the other way around. Christ died to put an end to the eternal ravages of sin.
fred,
Sorry you totally failed to answer my question. Here it is again since you missed it:
You choose to believe the Bible when it condemns gays and choose NOT to believe the Bible when it talks about Noah's ark.
Is this correct? Yes or no?
Please try to answer and not run away as you often do. If you are going to run away, then good night.
Observer
It is not necessary to believe Noah's ark was made out of gopher wood in order to be right with God and remain in the presence of God.
The Priests in Jesus day were blasted by Jesus for adding all sorts of conditions and restrictions onto that which God commanded. I have no doubt this is a pattern of man that is not limited to religion. God did not condemn the Hebrew for slave ownership that was cultural in its day but did condemn abuse and those who abused. Love God Love your neighbor keeps it all straight.
@fred, Are you saying God doesn't condemn slavery as long as it's "cultural"?
Observer
"You choose to believe the Bible when it condemns gays"
=>you error is that you are a hypocrite. You are the one picking on gays. The Bible condemns all mankind for all have fallen short of the Glory of God. What part of that do you not understand? If you want to be honest and attack the Bible do so because it condemns everyone regardless of orientation.
=>I cannot agree with something you make up and the Bible never says.
"choose NOT to believe the Bible when it talks about Noah's ark."
We do not know anything about the days of Noah other than remnants of a symbolic picture language that brought the story forward and was recorded by Moses in about 1,400 BC. Jesus gave us a clear picture of what that was all about as did others say Peter for example 2 Peter 2:4-6:
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample to those that after should live ungodly;
Saraswati
No, God works through people where they are in their time and place not where they should be. Slaves and Bond servants were part of the labor force in the day. God told the Hebrew not to oppress slaves as the nations around them did and reminded them of their suffering as slaves under Egyptian oppression for 430 years.
fred,
Really simple questions and you are totally stumped. See if you can answer it:
Do you choose to believe the Bible when it says gays are abominations? Yes or no?
Do you choose to believe the Bible when it gives the details of the Noah's Ark story? Yes or no?
This shouldn't be so tough for you. Either you do or you don't.
So what are the answers? Please don't hide . See if you can FINALLY answer the questions..
@fred, So are you saying then that God does condemn slavery, even if it is cultural?
Observer
"Do you choose to believe the Bible when it says gays are abominations? Yes or no?"
=>I am trying to help you break through the wall you have built up that keeps you from understanding the truth. Read carefully. You have turned the Bible completely backwards either intentionally or by denial of the truth.
Only three times can we possibly infer gays as an abomination out of the 89 times "abominations" are addressed in the Bible. In all cases it is inferred as to pattern and whether or not it is an abomination is dependent on many factors. You cannot pick and choose verses to suit your slant out of context. All laws fall under two specific commandments. Orientation does not violate either commandment. Keep in mind it is you who have picked up and associated gays with abominations, not me and not the Bible.
=>Let me say it again the Bible does not say being gay is an abomination. If you expect me to paint gays with the same broad brush you do I cannot. Each individual is unique with purpose onto God. When you reject God the result is an abomination which manifests itself in many forms. I am not about to guess which form you have in mind.
=>I say NO to your improper pick and choose and assuming you are implying that gays are less then because of who they are then I also say NO gays are not an abomination based on your definition.
abominations
@fred, let's skip some of the loaded terminology. Do you think it is wrong, according to the bible, for two people of the same se.x to live together in a loving and se.xual relationship?
Observer
"Do you choose to believe the Bible when it gives the details of the Noah's Ark story? Yes or no?"
=>There is not enough information provided in the Bible or other evidence to reach a conclusion about many of the details. I believe those parts I understand based on what Jesus, Prophets and the apostles stated which confirms what the story is all about. I do not understand for example where all the pitch and gopher wood came from etc. but that does not change the story. I understand only God could create such a construct as the flood since it cannot happen based on what we know.
Yes, I believe with an *
I thought sin is an abomination to God, fred. Perhaps you mean homosexuals are not exceptionally abominable when compared to the rest of us who are also by nature sinful and unclean.
fred,
"Keep in mind it is you who have picked up and associated gays with abominations, not me and not the Bible."
Leviticus 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”
OOOPS! Do you read the Bible at all?
Still stumped?
Do you believe everything the Bible says about gays? Yes or no?
Do you believe everything the Bible says about Noah's ark? Yes or no?
Why are you so stumped about what you believe? Just two simple words to reply. Can't you handle it?
Tom Tom
Christ was beaten to a pulp, mocked and nailed to the cross. That is what sin looks like and does to a Holy God. Symbolic of the ugliness of sin Mel Gibson did a good job of portraying the abomination that comes out of a man in the Passion. I doubt we could pick the sin of homosexuality out of that abomination.
Saraswati
" let's skip some of the loaded terminology. Do you think it is wrong, according to the bible, for two people of the same se.x to live together in a loving and se.xual relationship?"
=>No, not according to the Bible as that situation was not addressed.
=> We need to add our own speculations into the words of the Bible and conclude that there is physical or spiritual harm to the individual, society or future generations as a result of such relationship. Given that heterosexual relationships have been proven an abomination in most cases orientation does not seem to be the problem.
Fred
I doubt we could pick the sin of ho.mose.xuality out of that abomination.
that was extremely well said. and i agree. I am with that analogy one hundred percent there is no way to argue the validity of perversion.
now then how is that there are strip bars and p.orn shops? why isn't this a huge public issue? How is a po.rn shop or strip club owner not a focus is trecherous gain, but a gay person trying to get a tax break is? none of the other perverts are bothered.
I think they should let them get married and with hold any tax breaks. see if they still want to get married.
Observer
There you go again you pick one verse (Leviticus 18:22 out of 23 specific verses 1-23 concerning sexual relationships) and by gosh it just happens to deal with gay sex. Are you getting the picture yet that you need help on bringing balance into your thought process?
Let us read the next verse 23:“‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
Tell me why did you leave out the 21 preceding verses and this one?.......the answer will set you free.
Now, even the verse you picked does not assume or anticipate the possibility of a loving relationship it assumes a wrongful lust filled practice of Baal Worshipers. Get your perspective straight and a proper orientation towards the Bible will follow.
I do believe you are one who is stumped because it is your orientation towards God not sex that is an abomination.
being in love and cohabiting isnt enough. it seems that marriage together with the tax break has caused the problem.
thats what you get for debasing what is a godly covenant with the government money insentive
should have seen it coming. God is not pleased with this whordome . is this God's blessing? this Gods tax break to the family? then if a non christian family can have the tax break, why not the gay tax break?
both situations come down to living in sin, outside God's will. there are many rich non believers.
if it is, then Christians have a monetary blessing from God through the American Gov.
Doesn't make sense. I cant see it.
fred,
lol. It would be interesting to count up how many hundreds of words you've used to try to change the subject and AVOID the answers. I asked about YOU but you are pathetically trying to change the subject to me, fooling no one but yourself, if even that.
Still looking for TWO words. Save yourself wasting hundreds of words.
Do you believe everything the Bible says about gays? Yes or no?
Do you believe everything the Bible says about Noah's ark? Yes or no?
Why are you so stumped about what you believe? Just two simple words to reply. Can't you handle it?
this tax break causes dishonor to marriage.
We have added an incentive to marriage , monetary, through the Gov, that causes everyone to compete for this cheeper form of living. of course Gay cohabiting people want to get married
Erase the God forsaken tax break.
do you have any balls? would you do it for the sake of the word? Get rid of the tax break before you complain about gay people.
Austin,
When we see the same large protests and see millions and millions of dollars spent by Christians to remove the marriage tax break like they protest gay marriage, then you will have far more credibility. Hypocrisy lives.
Observer
"Do you believe everything the Bible says about gays? Yes or no?"
=>You definitely do not know what it says and I do not know everything it says about "gays" so I cannot answer such a question. So let me forget about your stereotypical portrayal because I have not encountered the "gays" the Bible calls abominations with the exception of mention concerning effeminacy.
=>I believe everything the Bible says concerning sexual immorality that is offensive to a Holy God. The offense is the same regardless of orientation (gay or not). Being gay or married and straight does not change what is offensive. It is totally about the inclination of your soul and if you do not believe in soul it is about the true desire of your heart.
"Do you believe everything the Bible says about Noah's ark? Yes or no?"
=>I answered that with a long winded NO. I do not know everything the Bible says about Noah. I do not believe all the apologetics concerning various details. I believe the Word of God that was affirmed by Jesus, the Prophets and the Apostles concerning Moses account of Noah's Ark. I believe it is an accurate portrayal of past and pending judgment.
fred
"You definitely do not know what it says and I do not know everything it says about "gays" so I cannot answer such a question
"There are fewer that 11 verses concerning hom0s3xuality being sin."
- fred
Observer
Not all refer to sin or abominations while others go off into effeminate characteristic.. My problem is that of establishing what is the real issue of sexual immorality and which rules apply only to the population addressed and which apply in general to all populations.
The hero's of the Bible seem to get caught up in obvious immorality and even Noah who found favor in the eyes of the Lord got all caught up in it yet they made it to the promised land. It is confusing but, sexual immorality is not a death sentence.
Observer
When you then fast forward to Paul we see he claims homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Both cannot be right so we put it into context and see there exists a reconciliation process. In the old testament is was through ceremony and in the New it is through Christ. There is always reconciliation available which tells me it is about seeking truth and a presence of God that Jesus modeled for us.
Reblogged this on lionlylambblog.
Now here's group politicians really pander to.
We'd live in a far freer society if they did.
Yep Dave, sure. Free here for a few short years – then damnation and suffering for eternity!
Seriously, how could anyone with a minimum of intelligence choose Satan over God?
@ad: that's an easy one. i skipped to the end to see who is throwing the better party! XD
who wants to sit around all eternity telling god how fracking great his ass cheeks smell? XD
Well, if they chose Satan, after they died, wouldn't they be with Satan? And since Satan controls hell, couldn't he make it whatever he wants it to be? As in, no fire and eternal torture? And if Satan doesn't control hell, God does...that doesn't seem very loving to me...now, I just don't know what to believe, but I don't believe God is as vindictive as the Bible makes him out to be. And if Heaven is a construct of man, then Hell is, too...so what's the point?
Why would you worship satan? He and his followers lose. Read the book.
why would you worship god? that book is a fairy tale.
"Read the book"?
Wasn't "the book" supposedly written by the opposition? Who'd you expect it to say wins?
Yahweh's book is bound to say that. He's secretly crapping his pants.
The only thing Satan loses is His time spent in the lake of fire for a short while and then He is released when the God's sons allow Him to once again roam this world. Scripture bares this out as a truth.
And rational thinking proves it to be a big pile of bull-poop.
Depends on which book you read.
any Dr. Seuss book provides more knowledge than the bible in its entirety.
I'd rather watch the movie. Or read the novelization. Now there's fiction for ya!
Best statement that applies not only in this case, but many other instances. . . . . "If you chose to mock us, then you should have done so based on what our philosophy actually is, rather than on an assumed `horror film' stereotype," the magus said."
In other news, florida made cell phones illegal today because evidently they don't have anybody around who can write a law clearly.
But seriously, Jim, do you have some context for that remark, or should we go onto man-eating sharks, next?
I changed my name because this post was not done by me, the jim you spoke to earlier.
Bootyfunk, are you high or just trolling? Havent yet read the part with the Ten Commandments yet? Hmmmmm.You think God is all about the abortion? Sorry, not sure whether to laugh at you or weep for you. Do you have the Chapter and verse on that "recipie"? Got to be a troll or an eleven year old.
not trolling at all. just goes to show i know more about the bible than you do. have YOU read the 10 commandments? they don't mention the word "abortion", fyi. so if i prove there is an abortion recipe in the bible, i guess you'll step up and admit you don't know very much about the book you supposedly live your life by?
Are you stupid or just unable to find the "reply" button? Are you really disagreeing with what Booty wrote? How could you, logically?
Shakingmyhead,
The Bible not only never condemns abortion, it offers more to support it than to oppose it.
Read a Bible someday.
shakingmyhead has employed the classic " No it isn't" defense. Gotta love the classics.
btw, Numbers 5:12-28 is the abortion recipe in the bible, for any that want to look it up. only works on unfaithful women, fyi.
@shakingmyhead
what happened? you called me out and i proved you wrong. want to admit you don't know as much about the bible as you proclaim? does it make you "a troll or an eleven year old"?
@booty: yup sounds like a recipe for an "abortion" liquid to me. 🙂
thnx for the confirmation, WASP. sure can be hard teaching christians about the bible...
@snowboarder: "if there were a satan, he has obviously been the victim of a smear campaign. simple logic would dictate"
finally someone that has the same idea as me. i find it seriously odd that seeing "god inspired" the bible, why is it that lucifer never "inspired" his side of the story? you don't truly read about lucifer ever doing anything horrible............well compared to god's actions.
big deal he convinced a couple niave chidlren to get some brains about them, wooo fracking whooooo. XD
just count the people god and satan kill in the bible:
satan: 10 (with god's permission)
god: millions
if god was real, he'd be the biggest mass murderer in history. god is a thousand times the monster lucifer is.
Satan can make all the mute points he wants with all his volunteers doin' the spoutin' off.
At least a mute point isn't a moot point, though.
@lol: odd lucifer has always been so patient and quiet throughout human history; why is that?
could it be that he truly has no interest in human affairs?
or could it be that he is made "to look evil" by his truly needy,whinny, narissictic brother?
Jesus was called Lucifer... but I wouldn't want you to hurt yourselves...
How then did “Lucifer” get into the Bible? The word is actually Latin. It comes from the words lux (light/fire) and ferre (to bear/to bring) and when put together means bearer of light or bringer of fire. Lucifer is also one the Latin names for the morning star, Venus. As it turns out, so is the Greek word Eosphorus.
At length as the Morning Star (Eosphorus) was beginning to herald the light which saffron-mantled Dawn was soon to suffuse over the sea, the flames fell and the fire began to die. – Homer, The Iliad, Book 23
“And after these Erigenia bare the star Eosphorus, and the gleaming stars with which heaven is crowned.” – Hesiod, Theogony
When Jerome translated the biblical manuscripts in his Latin Vulgate, he believed the shining born of the dawn in Isaiah spoke of the morning star and so replaced the Hebrew and Greek meaning with the Latin name of the planet. If we were to do the same with our modern day translations, we would write “how you have fallen from heaven, O Venus, son of the morning.”
The cross, foolishness to the lost.
"Bootyfunk sayz
just count the people god and satan kill in the bible:.............."
That's only half the story and a half truth. Satan doesn't have the power to resurrect. God does. You'll get yours.
Notice that Lucifer is used in 2 Peter 1:19 in Jerome’s Vulgate just as it is used in Isaiah 14:12 to replace the Hebrew heilel. Here is the English: “Moreover, we possess the prophetic word as an altogether reliable thing. You do well if you pay attention to this as you would to a light shining in a murky place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.” – 2 Peter 1:19
The morning star rising in the hearts of Yahweh’s people is a direct reference to Numbers 24:172 and describes the coming of Christ. The Greek word for morning star in 2 Peter 1:19 is Eosphoros. This is the same word used by the writers of the Septuagint to translate Heilel in Isaiah 14:12 and is the name of the planet Venus in Greek. If “Lucifer” is a correct rendering in Isaiah 14:12, then it is correct in 2 Peter 1:19 also (just as Jerome translates it). And so we have the first place where scripture calls Yeshua Lucifer. But that is not the only place.
“And to the one who conquers and who continues in my deeds until the end…I will give him the morning star.” – Revelation 2:26a, 28b
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!” – Revelation 22:16
A word for the morning star in Latin, as we have seen, is Lucifer. So according to Yeshua’s own words, not only will those who follow him receive Lucifer, but Lucifer is a name for Yeshua himself. There is even more reason to believe that Lucifer is an appropriate translation in Revelation 22:16 because the Greek in that verse is “orthrinos aster,” which is a Greek epithet for Venus.
In conclusion, Lucifer is another name for Venus, Eosphorus, and Heilel. It describes the second planet, the morning star. While Yeshua is metaphorically likened to it in 2 Peter and Revelation, King Nebuchadnezzar receives this honor in Isaiah 14. Unfortunately, Satan is never given such distinction.
A goodness day to you WASP,
Why are you not capitalizing your first words in a sentence? Are you that lazy? Your name bares out your potential to capitalize,,,
"Satan doesn't have the power to resurrect. God does. You'll get yours."
no i won't. and neither will you. it's all a fairy tale. haha.
@loserlamb: why yes i am that lazy, and why not i'm american. we invented slang terms just so we didn't have to speak "proper english" LMFAO
my name is my own concern
Conversely, ll, why aren't you capitalizing your name?
'lol??
That's only half the story and a half truth. Satan doesn't have the power to resurrect. God does. You'll get yours.'
I am sure that was a great comfort to the tiny children, who were in abject terror as the flood water rose.
Satan may be anti-abortion, but God sure isn't. the bible never says anything against abortion - in fact, there's an abortion recipe in the bible, so if anything God seems to be pro-abortion.
Upside down is your comment.
upside down is your brain.
Satanists are staunch individualists. It will vary from person to person.
Yup!!
..would like it if religions paid their fair share of taxes.. Separation doesn't mean a free ride. Look at all the tax exempt catholic property in prime real estate locations..
We all pay for them, because they don't pay. That's not separation. Another is in gov grants to religious organizations,, that's OUR tax dollar, again that's not separation
The Masters have been separated from their freedom by the PUblic Servants. The pwogwessives HAD to FIX the const*itution.
^^ hilarious to hear a christian zombie talk about "Masters" hahaha
lol??
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lol??
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Now Reality is someone with issues. Or a gubmint employee from somewhere over the rainbow.
July 10, 2013 at 10:50 am | Report abuse |
lol??
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
CNN employees are just runnin' office pools about all the A&A nut jobs they troll..
Don't bother replying to @lol??. I wrote a fairly lengthy one yesterday and it was deleted. Pffft.
When lol??'s stuff goes into moderation, the answering posts disappear. You're right...pfft!
Is it just me or is it ironic that they are following 667 people and not 666?
Awesome attention to detail !
XD
Maybe 666 humans and one "other"?