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July 18th, 2013
03:14 PM ET
`Six Types of Atheists' study wakes a sleeping giantBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - They were trying to prove a simple point: That nonbelievers are a bigger and more diverse group than previously imagined. "We sort of woke a sleeping giant," says Christopher F. Silver, a researcher at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga. "We're a bit overwhelmed actually." Silver and his project manager, Thomas Coleman, recently released a study proposing six different types of nonbelievers - from strident atheists to people who observe religious rituals while doubting the divine. The study clearly struck a chord, particularly among triumphal atheists and uneasy believers. Articles appeared in in Polish, German, Russian and Portuguese, Silver said. Here on CNN.com, our story "Behold, the Six Types of Atheists" garnered about 3.14 gazillion hits and thousands of comments. Half the fun seemed to lie in atheists applying the categories to themselves, kind of like a personality test. "I guess I'm a 1-2-4 atheist," ran a typical comment. Other commenters questioned the study's categories, methods, and even the religious beliefs of its authors. Silver and Coleman agreed to answer our readers' questions via email from Tennessee. Some of their answers have been edited for length and clarity. Q: Several readers asked how you came up with your six categories of atheists? A: In a sense we let the participants inform our theory. The categories were devised from a series of 59 interviews conducted with people nationwide who don’t believe in God. Participants were asked to define various terms of nonbelief as well as their own religious views. We also asked participants to tell us their stories and how their religious views have changed over time. We found the most commonly repeated stories and descriptions and formed them into types. We then used those types in the survey portion of the project. Each of the six categories proved to be statistically unique in a wide array of psychological measures. Q: @PaulTK asks: Are atheists limited to the six categories your study proposes? A: We suspect that further research exploring people who don't believe in God will certainly expand the number of categories and fill in more details about the six we've named. For example, we found that the Intellectual Academic Atheist type may produce a 7th type reflecting those who are more "philosophically orientated" versus those who are more "scientifically orientated." Our study also gives some evidence that individuals may not believe in God but still identify with religion or spirituality in some way. Q: @JessBertapelle asks: Can people fit into more than one category? A: The typology of nonbelief is fluid. Based on our interviews, we suspect people transverse the various types over the course of their lives. Since we did not conduct a longitudinal design (a study conducted over time tracking the same people) we are unable to validate this assumption. For those of you who found yourselves agreeing with multiple positions, you may find characteristics that you identify with in all types but there is likely one type which is your preference. Q: @Melissa asks: Why isn't there a category for "closet atheists"? A: This is an excellent question. Many of our interviews were done in strict confidence where the participant’s own parents, spouses, or children had no idea they were participating in the study. One participant hid in the back of her closet because she did not want her parents to discover she is an atheist. But while there were plenty of “closeted” participants, they didn't agree in how they describe their religious views. That is, they ranged across a variety of our six types. Q: stew4248 asks: How is this any different than religious divisiveness? A: There is vast diversity among religious believers, but it's unclear if such diversity exists within nonbelief. We do know that the Antitheist category has much in common with religious fundamentalism. Likewise the Intellectual atheism/Agnosticism type has a lot in common with intellectual theology, although they are clearly not the same. Q: How did you find the participants for the study? Participants were recruited through nonbelief communities across the country. They were recruited face-to-face, through snowball sampling (participants sharing the study with friends), and through the Internet. Project manager Thomas J. Coleman III is well known in the atheist community because he is suing the Hamilton County (Tennessee) Commission for their involvement in divisive sectarian prayer at meetings. His reputation helped locate “closeted” atheists to participate. The regional breakdown of participants is presented on the project website. Q: A number of readers have also asked about your own religious affiliations, if you don't mind. Christopher F. Silver answers: I was born and raised in the rural South to a deeply religious Methodist family. In my hometown everyone was Christian. As was the case for many in our study, during college I was introduced to people from different cultures and ideologies. I was interested in studying different faith traditions and why people believe. In many respects, research for this was a selfish enterprise for me. There is nothing more transformative than sitting with someone as they share their life story with you. Today I consider myself an agnostic in the real philosophical sense. The more I learn, the more I recognize the extensiveness of my ignorance. Thomas J Coleman III answers: My mother has been active in the Methodist church as a choir member and pianist for most of her life. My grandparents were very active in the church and went every Sunday. Growing up, I would often go as well. But for me, “religion” was always something that other people did. I prefer to identify as a secular humanist. Silver and Coleman would like to point out that their study was supported and conducted in collaboration with the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Department of Psychology and the Doctorate in Learning and Leadership. soundoff (4,594 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Seems like a good time for Roger Zelazny's Agnostic's Prayer:
The Agnostic's Prayer
"Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to ensure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen."
Kind of covers all bases.:)
The article is bullshift. An atheist doesn't really need to promote anything. It's like trying to explain to a person who believes that the Earth is flat that it's not. You either get the facts or you don't, but no one needs to prove the obvious.
What do you mean the earth is not flat? What kinda hippy talk is that? Anyone with a good eye can see it's flat.
I think the most pertinent question is, how does one actually shift a bull?
With the proper magnitude of force applied to the center of gravity, compensating for any rotational motion caused by forces in the opposite direction due to friction.
How does one accomplish this through non-mechsnical means?
Mechanical
Get the angular momentum out of your eye before casting the bull out of its current trajectory! – How To Play Pocket Pool, 3rd Ed., V=ma Oracular Epithets, Verse 10.22388007
Atheist...theist...so what? I'm still trying to figure out why it matter to anyone. Do what you want.
Because some would legislate based on them, curious since some scream quite loudly about sharia law.
It matters in most state-Islamic countries. It mattered in the Soviet Union when the League of Militant Atheists were persecuting Christians. It mattered during The Inquisition. It matters in families where being an atheist can mean one being castigated or expelled from the family (or the other way around in the case of that witch Madalyn Murray O'Hair and her son).
Just remember there are many better ways to solve the same problem, and compromise is a virtue. Have a big heart to accept others who are different is important too. Let others judge you, but don't judge others, spread the what is good what is right. Never hate for yourself and for humanity, or God or not. The thing is live happy, live righteously, live for yourself and for others. Let everyone take a small step toward peace then it would be a huge step for humanity in the right direction. God bless, live long and prosper 🙂
I'm not a hippy or religious, so I'll not do any of those things besides live for myself.
Thank you for your comment! I was starting to wonder if anyone read what I just wrote 🙂 Live for yourself is a great way! Kudo for you!
Thank you and thanks for remaining positive even though my comment was less than polite (even though the sentiment of my comment was correct).
Thank you for thanking me remaining positive even though your sentiment was not positive in your earlier post, but I am glad your current post is more positive so Kudo to you 🙂 Keep it up! I hope you are already happier! I hope you will soon see a brighter world with me, not that darkness doesn't exist. But keep believing brother or sister 🙂 And to humanity I will keep my prayer for you all even though I don't know if it works, but I don't think it would hurt anyone 🙂
Who can argue with so many smiley faces? Surely they are a most puissant magic, indeed! I can feel myself....*faints*
I hope you will have a good dream 🙂
And 🙂 is great power that everyone has but used enough. So be powerful and 🙂
Does anybody get the feeling Dr., Herewe Goagain, poseidon and Louis are the same person?
Only the low-information, conspiracy theorist atheists
Duly noted.
Atheists should jump off a bridge
...and crush you to death. Sounds good.
Trolls like you hiding under bridges would make good targets from above.
Don't bother wearing a hardhat. I'll be sending down large chunks of concrete first to soften your empty head.
Good call. And a good plan.
Bungee jumping? Looks fun but risky, you on the other hand should come out from under them.
Atheism is rapidly becoming the new gay. Atheists need a flag to wave.
If you had it your way, African Americans would still not be allowed to vote.
No we don't. We just need education for the masses (scientific illiteracy is rampant), better living conditions and religion stops having such a strong grip on society.
Atheism is a religion because one must believe there is no god completely by faith. All "faith positions" are religions.
Exactly, same as how not believing in Skeletor is a religion.
You've got that right. Agnostic is the only true path. No one can know one way or the other. Claiming otherwise if foolish.
Are you agnostic about Skeletor?
I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't see how skelator, who has never been claimed by anyone to be a creator of the universe (or a master of it for that matter) can be equated to the ancient notion of a creator. Your question is ridiculous.
I claim Skeletor is the creator of the universe. To say otherwise without proof is ridiculous as you can't know either way.
Skeletor farted the universe out of his ass while strolling through Castle Greyskull. It's a secret religion. Pass it on.
My stance on every religion is that they're wrong. Hows that. Every future religion is wrong, every past religion is wrong. All notions of what created the universe or how it was created are questions for science. If science finds something, which it can't, then let me know.
Skeletor is going to kick your ass.
Seriously though, who are you (or anybody, for that matter) to put limits on what science can achieve?
Forget skeleton then. Are you agnostic toward Vishnu and Krishna?
Or Zeus, Wotan, Odin, Mithras, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Apollo, Baal, Gaia... You can't believe in them all. Are you merely agnostic about the ones you don't believe in, or are you atheistic toward them.
I would say the only reasonable position is the be agnostic toward some creative force of nature, and atheistic toward every one of these man made gods.
Skeletor, not skeleton. Misspelling Skeletor, that's a paddlin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM
Sayin' "that's a paddlin'".......that's a paddlin'.
Agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. They answer different questions. Agnosticism is an answer to knowledge about god's existence. Atheism is an answer to belief in god. One can be both with perfectly logical consistency.
There is no such thing as an agnostic. The "we just don't have the understanding/knowledge to know" argument is a cop out. You can apply that line of thinking to unicorns, tooth faires etc. Besides, atheism already covers that. A true atheist would never state "there is no god" otherwise we would be no better than a believer who states "there definately is a god". Atheism is simply the position that there is no proof of any god. Whether is be because he just simply doesn't exist or that we "can't understand/have knowledge" of him is inconsequential. People who claim to be "agnostic" are just afraid of the word "atheist". “Agnostics are just atheists without balls.” Stephen Colbert.
@Logic led me to Atheism
No, you are describing agnostics, not atheists. Atheists DO NOT believe in god. Agnostics don't know. There is a difference, and it is not a cop out. Just like I don't speculate on what happened before the big bang. Is that a cop out too?? Your statement is ridiculous and insulting.
You either believe in god or your don't. How can you not know if you believe in god?
Troy
You can't just be agnostic forever, though. Some day, you have to choose either to live your life as though some god exists, or not. Otherwise, one assumes that whatever partial commitment towards worshipping a god wouldn't be satisfactory to it's demands, and you really can't be happy as a partial non-believer either, right?
You either need to choose to believe in a god and comfort yourself with the knowledge that you are doing your best to appease it, or you have to totally eject the idea that some god actually exists that you could be upsetting by not doing your best to appease it. I just can't see how sitting on the fence half-way earns you any peace of mind.
It can give them flexibility in reacting to other people who hold positions on any side, not having one of their own, you see...
False, just like i don't need to have a position on what happened before the big bang. I don't know, and can't know, so therefore I won't pretend to (like atheists and theists)
Herewe Goagain
Atheism isn't a religion, it's just the rejection of all claims to real gods. Believers propose that their god is real, even though they themselves usually assume that all other gods were man-made, and we atheists have judged personally that they simply did not make a good enough case to convince us. If it's that important for you that we believe in your god, then it's up to you to make a better case for their existence.
Nicely put. A toast to you! Cheers!
It's not based upon faith, it's based upon a lack of evidence otherwise.
Reasons why atheism is horrible and unhealthy for our children and living things:
– Atheists do not have any morality, are heartless, soulless and cold.
– Atheists grew up in a bad family, not being loved and abused.
– Atheism was brought upon during the French Revolution, one of the most evil time of history.
– Communism – evil system created by atheists!
– Atheists cannot prove God does not exist and how Earth was created.
– No atheists contribute to charitable causes, unlike Christians, due to atheism beliefs in Darwinism.
– Atheism making you agree with mass murder leaders like Stalin, Mao, Pot, Mussolini and even Hitler!
– Atheists are mentally ill, that's why they have no faith and belief.
– Countries with high rate of atheism = high suicide rate (Nordic nations).
– Atheists tries to convert (young) people into their evil belief over the internet.
– Atheists believe in evolutions, and want us to act like animals.
– Atheists bash Christianity based on Jewish scriptures (Old Testament/Torah) and organized religion, and tend to ignore or forget how amazing, loving, friendly, supportive, and excellent the most influential person who has even walked on Earth, Jesus Christ, was.
– Atheists do not believe in Jesus Christ; therefore they must hate their neighbor and enemy.
Atheists are minority in the U.S. and the world no matter what "secular" sources and polls voted by few thousands of people tells you that were made up by silly atheists dreaming about making America more atheist, unbiblical and unGodly than what it actually is. More than 90% of Americans believe in God. Period!.
More than 90% of American's believe in God's period? I thought god was a man?
I don't hate you, I pity you.
More strawmen here than in all the cornfields of Nebraska.
I hope you get to meet reality someday.
No "living thing" other than a human gives a rat's a%& about religion. So basically you fail in your ramblings before you even start. Fail miserably.
Dr,
This is some of the most brainless spam ever.
No wonder you are ASHAMED to stick around and answer questions.
I'll bet you never came remotely close to getting a doctorate degree.
Dr.
Here's what God did to children:
Ezekiel 9:3-6) “The Lord said to the man in the linen robe, "Walk through the city of Jerusalem and mark the forehead
of anyone who is truly upset and sad about the disgusting things that are being done here." He turned to the other
six men and said, "Follow him and put to death everyone who doesn't have a mark on their forehead. Show no mercy or
pity! Kill men and women, parents and CHILDREN."
You're wrong. More than 90% of people may believe in A god... not your god though. It's more like 60% in the US.
Me? I'm not teaching my son to believe in anything. It's up to him, but I certainly am not going to force (brainwash) him into having a guilt trip over not believing in a god.
Here are some horrid things about christianity:
1. The inquisition
2. Witch hunts
3. Judging spiteful people
4. Pedophiles
5. Cult leaders
6. Mormons
7. Believing in a god but not believing in santa claus... this should have been #1...
WOW ! A hateful believer spewing his/her lies and hate.
– Atheists do not have any morality, are heartless, soulless and cold.
Yes we do, and that's why we reject your slave morality
– Atheists grew up in a bad family, not being loved and abused.
So they should be abused?
– Atheism was brought upon during the French Revolution, one of the most evil time of history.
Umh no, everyone is born an atheist
– Communism – evil system created by atheists!
It hasn't really even existed. But even Stalin pales to the evils of God.
– Atheists cannot prove God does not exist and how Earth was created.
We can't disprove an infinite number of things. No good reason to believe in them without evidence
– No atheists contribute to charitable causes, unlike Christians, due to atheism beliefs in Darwinism.
Part of darwinism is altruism, with which we would not have gotten this far. You don't understand evolution.
– Atheism making you agree with mass murder leaders like Stalin, Mao, Pot, Mussolini and even Hitler!
All of which pale in the evils of hell, cancer, earthquakes and all other which your god is the source for, including all those "gentlemen" which god did nothing to stop.
– Atheists are mentally ill, that's why they have no faith and belief.
Actually mental problems are more common among religious people. Take the Jerusalem syndrome for instance
– Countries with high rate of atheism = high suicide rate (Nordic nations).
The living standards are usually much higher in countries in which religion is not common. So we need to look at other reasons. And it leads to another question, why are believers so afraid of death? Not so certain perhaps?
– Atheists tries to convert (young) people into their evil belief over the internet.
Education kills belief in magic man, no need to try to convert.
– Atheists believe in evolutions, and want us to act like animals.
We are animals, and we seldom act more immorally than when acting after religious beliefs.
– Atheists bash Christianity based on Jewish scriptures (Old Testament/Torah) and organized religion, and tend to ignore or forget how amazing, loving, friendly, supportive, and excellent the most influential person who has even walked on Earth, Jesus Christ, was.
Yes, Jesus said leave your families, even hate them, you will not go the heaven without belief in me. Actually this is extremely evil. As is curing some people (not to forget inventing them in the first place) and not all people. This is to ALLOW suffering.
– Atheists do not believe in Jesus Christ; therefore they must hate their neighbor and enemy.
No, we do not have beliefs which we must believe. You do. You completely failed to live up to two rules. Do not bear false witness and love thy neighbor. Fact: You ignore most of the babble.
"Intellectual theology". That has to be the epitome of oxymoron. Right up there with "religious scholar".
A religious scholar could be somebody who studies religion from a completely secular standpoint.
But it never is. It's a term the clergy refer to themselves as in an attempt to lend themselves respectability and authority.
There are numerous secular religious scholars. Look at CNN's own Stephen Prothero or the BBC's (very attractive) scholar Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou. Don't confuse theologian with religious scholar.
There are some that just study the writing basically like historians I guess, The Daily Show just interviewed Reza Aslan last night if you care to see what he's about.
Stephen Prothero's studies may be from a secuarl perspective, but he himself isn't secular. He is no atheist.
I know Reza Aslan personally. He's a fellow Iranian. He is not an atheist. Trust me.
One can be a devout believer and secular. Anyway, Prothero isn't exactly a Bible thumper. Does he even adhere to a particular belief system?
Prothero is a believer in vacations. I believe in them too, but I do not have cute undergrads working for me nor do I go to the beach like Prothero, so....oh, wait, you meant religious beliefs! *smacks head*
Believing in vacations isn't really a belief system though, is it?
It is a belief system. Why don't you think it is? Vacations exist. I believe they exist and I have proof they exist. It's a rational belief system, as opposed to a religion, which is an irrational belief system.
A belief is not a belief system.
Being a rational belief, there is a system of rationalization to support it. A system, I say! And it has other rational beliefs in support of it as well. A system of rational supporting mental constructs that are themselves beliefs of perception, where a religion has beliefs of delusional "perceptions" in a system with a system of 'rationalizing' their delusions to mesh with what they imagine.
Systems analysis complete. That will be $40k. Thank you for stopping by, please come again. 😀
But you are tripping on your English, I think, so I won't send you a bill. I may have to pay you for reading this.
Christ, you've become tedious.
Tea Dius, God of Proper Brewing Techniques, cast this profaner into the fires beneath thy Kettle of Doom! I say!
Riiight.
You only need a "belief system" when your belief is crazy to begin with – otherwise it would need no support.
I'd like to think that I'm a religious scholar (and an atheist). Religion is one of the most basic and influential systems in human society. It only makes sense (to me) that they should be studied so we have a better understanding of humanity in all it's various forms.
And some of them are actually decent reads! But dang-it! I just wish I could keep all these greek philo names straight. I swear they just threw letters together and said, "yeah, that sounds good".
Atheist here but I'm very frustrated at the atheist movement. Most atheists simply say they reject the Bible, yet live by it's morality of self sacrifice and brother's keeper, etc. It's not high minded to simply replace "thou shall" with "You outta" and claim to be an intellectual. It's not that the morality is necessarily wrong, it's just not rational to accept a morality without justification. Causeless love is still irrational. If you are a borderline atheist, I suggest you find philosophy before you make yourself look like a tool.
I know almost no atheists who adhere to a Biblical moral code.
Example: How can any atheist be anything but an Individualist? I've argued this with MANY atheists that adopt social collectivism as a philosophy of life. Notice Socialistic States and Socialist organizations are generally atheistic. Far too many people are wise enough to reject religion, but don't delve deeper into morality to realize they have to arrive at a rational moral code that holds their individual self as the highest value.
Most socialist (I'm assuming you mean communist because every state on the planet is socialist to some extent) is state atheist to consolidate power, as there can't be an authority higher than the state. I couldn't tell you why atheists are socialists because I am an individualist, but I can assure you that atheist don't adhere to Biblical morality. Have you read Leviticus? Nobody adheres to a Biblical moral code.
"individual self as the highest value"??
Ah, you must be one of those who assume that not having a god to worship automatically means a person will then worship themselves.
Busted. You are no atheist. Only religitards come up with that insane assumption on a regular basis.
There isn't a consensus on anything for atheists as far as morality, some would perhaps argue justified killing, rather than simply, thou shalt not kill.
Pretty sure most aren't about to stone children for talking back to their parents, or gays for being gay, or adulterers.
If you want a reason why you shouldn't kill another human most of the time, how about: without each other, wild animals would have eaten us as individuals.
That's a problem. Rejecting religion because it's unreal is proper, but accepting a seemingly random morality based on "feelings" and "social norms" is the same error, only perhaps less severe.
Did I mention feelings or social norms?
Dan M
What makes you think that rational people couldn't come up with a morality that includes such basic stuff as not murdering, stealing, and sleeping around with other people's spouses? The only stuff unique to the Bible is the junk about worshipping God that we reject. Get a clue, man!
Religion does not form a basis for morality in humans. Common sense defines morals.
Ehm no. Most Christians do not even live after the bible. If they did then they would be behind bars. When was the last time they owned slaves and wanted to kill those who work on the sabbath? Fact: Most so called Christians ignore most of the bible, and that's why they know so little about it. Basically the bible is an EULA agreement.
Since when was being atheist synonymous with being a Christian persecutor.
Since extremist Christians started redefining words.
I must have Forgot we were living in the 19th century
If people follow the bible, they're trying for the first century, or earlier.
And thank you for proving a point. Most atheist in the west call themselves and adhere to atheism not because of their intellectual abilities but because they hate Christians and to believe in something because of the hate in your heart is probably the saddest way to pass your short time on this earth.
If you say so.
most athiests in the west are atheist because they hate christians?
thank you for your input
Bit,
"Most atheist in the west call themselves and adhere to atheism not because of their intellectual abilities but because they hate Christians "
Nope. Nonsense in the Bible is a better reason.
If hating Christianity is the mark of atheists, I should introduce you to some Muslims.
No Bit, I just realized one day that I really didn't have any good reason to believe that God actually exists. Call it an epiphany, of sorts. Before that point I just honestly never really taught about why I believed in God. I just took his existence as a given, as I was taught to do.
No one
And some Christians. There are plenty who can't stand Catholics, Mormons, mainline protestants, creationists, born-agains, Baptists, or what have you. I'm pretty sure that there aren't very many Christians who will say that they like all denominations and groups who call themselves Christian. If atheists and Muslims weren't around to hate they'd be at their own throats a whole lot more, just like in the good old days.
Wrong Bit. You are 100% wrong.
Interesting. I am an atheist and I do not now nor have I ever hated anyone. Or would you claim that I am not an atheist because I do not hate?
Bit
All you have to do is tell some Christians is that you disagree with them to be labeled a "persecutor", or even a "hater". Besides, all of that comes from their side anyway. They have those Bible passages where they say that people will hate them for what they believe, and they like to apply that to anyone who doesn't just accept everything they say at face value. It's part of their greater martyr complex.
Since they coagulated into socies. That's not surprising because the educratists through Bloom, bwainwashed em. Bloom learned from the Frankfurt School how to manipulate the populace. It's a simple tactic of destroyin' the fathers. Since they have been left out in the cold when it comes to conscience development, they are doomed to act like brute beasts.
Odds are pretty good we are all just computer simulations, and god is a team of programmers studying evolution of cosmos and life. We are in a test tube, a quantum computer. Time is only an illusion, cycles of our cpu. The universe is digital and fractal, and only exists where we look.
Well, it's certainly true to the individual that nothing exists outside one's own mind. We're all solipsists in that sense.
I'd say the odds of that are close to zero.
Who knows? It's more rational than some narcissistic bearded dude who's all powerful (but isn't because of Satan) creating us to feed his narcissism.
Odds are the Universe is exactly what we have observed it to be. There is a chance we're in a simulation, but there is ZERO evidence to say it's "odds on." The Uncertainty Principle seems to indicate it's impossible to simulate our own Universe fully without building a "machine" larger than the Universe itself. The computer you are using contains far more matter & particles in a microscopic piece of it than the entire machine is capable of storing and processing.
A simulation would not need to process anything when a particular piece of space is not being observed. If there is any chance that a universe can be simulated in a computer, than it has likely already occurred, and the result would be more simulated universes than non-simulated.
Beer is the only drug I use, I got over the whole drugs thing in my late teens. I do enjoy looking at the stars though.
Wrong thread.
The uncertainty principle is due solely to our lack of proper equipment. There is no uncertainty in actual physics.
And the "observation" part of physics is misleading and implies that an "observer" must be present. Utter nonsense.
At the quantum level, anything done to measure (observe) is usually overwhelming at the quantum level and precludes getting a full reading, and the uncertainty is not uncertain, just too small to measure with our current technology.
As to this being a "matrix", there is zero indication of anything along those lines, just like zero indication of supernatural stuff.
Christ my brain begins to hurt once people get technical about physics. I find the whole thing fascinating but completely unapproachable technically. I have the utmost respect for all branches of science but specifically physics. Physicists truly are at the forefront of humanity's inquisitive nature.
Your poor brain!
I recommend a healthy dose of THC as you sit outside at night looking at the stars. That's all the physics most people ever need.
Beer is the only drug I use, I got over the whole drugs thing in my late teens. I do enjoy looking at the stars though.
Beer physics can be good. All that water helps against dehydration. Watery bitterstuff. That should be the name of a beer...since they all tend to taste that way to me.
THC is a vasco-dilator, which can cause different levels of brain activity not dependent or related to one's thoughts or emotional state. If you don't want to space out and think of different things, then THC is not for you. Beer is great for parties but no one can drive afterwards so that is always a pain in the patookus. Drinking alone just puts me to sleep. Zzz.
You shouldn't really drive after the ganja either.
Some people shouldn't drive totally wasted, you mean. You can drive after one beer, one hit, but beginners or those who just aren't good at that sort of thing certainly shouldn't, no. There is no test for THC that will pass legal muster, so until we have one of those, any DUI should be because of level of impairment, which is problematic with THC because it is not alcohol in any way other than being a party drug with medicinal uses. That's all they share. You just can't treat them the same at all.
Gospel of Neo? Church of the Matrix 🙂
I do find that the basics of, if you are among the Faithful, why God created us, the theory of a grand experiment can be possible.
If there was a Church of MiddleMuddle, you would be Da Poap, yo!
I always marvel at atheists. The receive the gift of life and have no idea who to thank. If you were to ask a team of a thousand scientists and engineers, "Does good design happen by accident?", what do you think they would say? And then you can take a look around you at the fabulous design of every living creature, every plant, every atom, and the perfect harmony in nature - and call every one of those things an accident? The only thing it takes to know God is to "tune in", like a radio that has to be on the right frequency to hear the message.
You should read "Why Evolution is True", by Jerry Coyne. It would help clear up this whole "design" thing that seems to confuse you. It's an easy read with a lot of real examples of evolution, and it helps to explain how over billions of years the Earth was able to achieve the diversity of life that we enjoy today.
Of course, it wasn't an easy journey. Over 99% of the species that ever lived are extinct. It this was the work of a "designer", it was a very poor designer indeed.
I'm a Christian who believes in evolution & as for the design of life being a poor one, because of the number of extinctions, that's not logical. You think it's a poor design because it doesn't conform to YOUR ideas of what it should be. Don't forget, the human race has entirely too much hubris; thinking they know everything & if something doesn't go their way it's wrong or defective!! Humans seem to think THEY are in charge of the way the universe runs.
If we were designed by an Intelligent Designer, he/she/it/whatever would have made our arms long enough that we could scratch between our shoulder blades where it itches.
“Your heart's desire is to be told some mystery. The mystery is that there is no mystery.” Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
One of the fundamentals of life is the element of mystery itself. Our quest for knowledge and advancement, to free ourselves from the limitations of the physical world are proof that we are not physical in essence. The question is, from where are we? Our eyes can't see a small fraction of what's actually right in front us - what makes you think our little minds can actually acquire a true understanding of a limitless universe, while we are nothing but insignificant specks of dust in comparison? Take a tissue and hang it in front of your eyes and tell me how much you see. You think our minds don't have a few wispy veils hanging around in there somewhere?
No, I'm not a hippy.
@Dave: lol!
We understand logic. Once you accept that 1 + 1 = 2, all other mathematical rules can be derived. The computer you are using is based on some of the most simplistic math you can imagine. The idea that logic and science have a limit to understand our Universe is absurd. We simply observe and catalog the behaviors we see. We understand the cause-effect relationships and begin to make theories that later are proven true by further observation. To say we don't have a mind capable of that is complete rejection of science. Theologians have been saying our mind is futile for centuries, yet our knowledge continues to grow and the same theologians are the first to use the comforts and products of rational people observing science.
The fabulous design of every virus, every parasite, every disease, every genetic deformity...
Evolution in action again. You gets the good with the bad. (bad grammar intentional) Seems to make more sense than the convoluted explanations of why a loving and all powerful God would create (or allow) such things as Ebola, smallpox, bubonic plague, AIDS (oh, right, I forgot, that's punishment for being gay), malaria, countless varieties of cancer, etc. etc. etc.
There is no design. That's why it's perfect!
i marvel at theists, who think that the possibility of a designer validates not only there being A god, but THEIR god
perfect harmony?
like vestige body parts that we do not need any more?
I know who to thank for my life. My parents, not some invisible thing that started out as a woman, and then became a bunch of people, and now is some guy. Or maybe not some guy since no one, but crazy people actually see it.
I always marvel at atheists.
– That's nice of you.
The receive the gift of life and have no idea who to thank.
– Why should I thank anyone? I'm a product of chemical reactions. THANK CHEMICALS!
If you were to ask a team of a thousand scientists and engineers, "Does good design happen by accident?", what do you think they would say?
– That is no argument against evolution. It is not intelligent design, it is survival of the fittest.
And then you can take a look around you at the fabulous design of every living creature, every plant, every atom, and the perfect harmony in nature – and call every one of those things an accident?
– No not an accident, a product of natural selection.
The only thing it takes to know God is to "tune in", like a radio that has to be on the right frequency to hear the message.
– ie Being brainwashed.
Tell me, what good design is it that some people die simply because they accidentally ate a nut? If you have all the power in the world then the designs are incredibly stupid.
The great falling away.
And everyone calls Christians prejudice... Look in the mirror people.
I don't call christians "prejudice." I call prejudice "prejudice". I call christians "christians". Or sometimes, believers.
I like to call christians brainwashed fools.
That's not prejudging, that's judging.
Ironic isn't it? Atheist "As I use to be one" always resort to moral relativism, meaning there isn't a universal right & wrong, or that one faith is the true way. But hey! the minute someone does a study & suggest that even atheism has many denominations & defintions also, making it very relative indeed, they get all defensive about it..lol Why? because they are just as much as fundamentalist extremist as some in ideologies can be, and this study breaks down there attempt to monopolize the conversation as a one true athesim above all else, there isn't, it's a taste of their own medicine, because atheism is just as relative as anything else in this world. In other words, they can finally lay down their self righteousness of knowing it all, because obviously they don't even agree on one true definition 😉
Most atheists don't try to paint a collective picture of all atheists and those who do are turd sandwiches.
GIANT D0UCHE!
"most atheists" – I guess you're a turd sandwich, then. Good call.
In what sense?
Actually, the word atheist simply means a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
The origin is Greek: áthe ( os ) godless + -ist .
It's a fairly simple concept, and a study that tries to artificially assign motives doesn't change that concept. I don't know why christians have such a difficult time understanding.
The monopolizing of the belief blog hasn't worked for the A&A's no matter how Sodomistic the tactic.
Are you saying your butt hurts?
Three types of Atheist: Haters, Religious Bigots, and People who don't believe in a God or Gods.
Are Christians not bigoted toward Muslims who are bigoted toward Buddhists who are bigoted toward the Norse mythology which is bigoted toward the Greek gods who are bigoted to Mormons who are bigoted to Egyptian gods who are bigoted toward Roman gods who are bigoted toward North Korea's glorious leader god?
Everyone knows what it is like not to believe in a religion, just not THEIR religion.
Is lying one of your christian values?
Of course it is, it's the fundamental belief of the christian religion. The leaders of the church lie to the followers and take 10% of their money so they can become rich and disguise it as giving money to god.
Shh! That's supposed to be a secret!
10% was used by the Jews to support their theocracy. You are confused.
Often in polls the most hated group is non-believers. So...where does this hatred come from? From God's lovely loving fan clubs!
Please, please...this is such a waste of time....stop fighting...everyone knows that atheists do not exist.
You decided this was so pithy you trolled it onto another page?
Oh we do indeed exist, and we are multiplying!! These are exciting times, and I'm glad to be a witness to them. What the printing press did for Christianity, the Internet is doing for atheism. Again, marvelous times!!
This whole thread is a scream. As I've said before, I'm an open minded Christian & I think these arguments can get pretty crazy. Talked to an atheist last year that was trying to tear down my faith. Used to have these discussions in college days .Aggressive atheists who attack people's faith are just as rude,domineering, & obnoxious as those cretins who make up the Christian right..which is neither by the way. I just told him that he can't prove God doesn't exist & I can't prove that he does. We BOTH have to take those beliefs on FAITH because they can't be proven.He says religion ought to be destroyed because people fight over it too much. I agree,they do. But most religions say pretty much the same things about peace, golden rule behavior,caring for one's fellow man,etc. Doctrines are different. It's perfectly possible for people of different faiths to get along. Do it all the time & so do millions of others. It's the crazy fanatics that mess it up for everyone. OK, get rid of religion & what's left ? Peace & harmony ?? HELL NO !! Still got politics & the oh so horrible GOD OF MAN in which religion is outlawed & A HUMAN LEADER is worshipped. Hitler,Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Marx ! Anyone heard of them ?? Gas chambers,death camps ,genocide. OK get rid of that,too What you got now? POLITICS!! UH OH, that's too often in cahoots with the GOD OF MAN. Tell people what they want to hear,get them to follow you ,get elected then screw 'em all except for your cronies. Corruption everywhere! Back to square one : PEOPLE FIGHTING. Maybe that's the problem...PEOPLE!! And the 7 deadly sins that are part of human nature: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. You can trace every evil deed people do back to those 7 sins even if you never heard of religion. The human race has to CLEAN UP ITS ACT OR NOTHING WILL WORK
"Archaic human admixture with modern Ho.mo sapiens occurred at least twice in history: with Neanderthals, and with the population to which the Denisova ho.minin belonged. A minimum estimated 1% to 4% of the DNA in Eurasians, North Africans is non-modern, and shared with ancient Neanderthal DNA rather than with Sub-Saharan Africans (i.e. Yoruba and San probands). A minimum additional estimated 4–6% of Melanesian DNA is from the archaic Denisovan hominins from Asia. Recent DNA analysis also indicates African admixture with a now extinct archaic population." – A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal – Genetic evidence for archaic admixture in Africa – North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neanderthals
Any Christians care to explain how the Adam account and our actual DNA record compare? And if Adam did not exist, then how are we to accept the premise of inherited sin and the need for a savior?
There doesn't seem to be a flood of responses.
You blinded them with science, JTFM.
They would probably say it is Satan playing science games to fool the lost souls already doomed and that the "real" reality is actually the way they imagine it in their wobbly heads.
A couple of questions:
1)What kind of lunar reproductive cycles did Neann and Deni have?? Did they go into heat like modern women??
2)How's the peer review process goin' on?? You know how the Keynesian Economists never give up on wrong theories.
At nature.com, "..............The new research reveals that the Denisovans had low genetic diversity—just 26 to 33 percent of the genetic diversity of contemporary European or Asian populations................." Did they stupidly interbreed too much like European royalty and doom themselves??
More from Nature.com,
"...................The finger bone—just one distal phalanx—is so small that it does not contain enough usable carbon for dating, the researchers note. But by counting the number of genetic mutations in a genome and comparing them with other living relatives, such as modern humans and chimpanzees, given assumed rates of mutations since breaking with a last common ancestor.................." See that mighty big assumption?? Is it reasonable?? What exactly CAUSES mutations?? Radiation?? The radiation from the sun is not exactly a constant.
@lol?? – So what you are saying is that you can't. Since you refuse to answer my questions and instead attempt to confuse the factual data we have from our DNA, I can only assume that you have no answer to my question. It's simple, Neanderthal DNA in humans = no Adam = no sin = no need for Jesus.
C'mon dude, you didn't prove no Adam. This cutting edge science with all its assumptions is way to early in the game to be creating a myth. Why can't YOU answer a couple simple questions since you brought it up. It's all about breeding, so just tell us the birds and the bees about the ladies of the study.
So your answer to my question is now "this science isn't accurate" or rather "this science makes assumptions". The fact is that NO assumption is being made in regards to our Neanderthal DNA, it is peer reviewed with repeatable, reproducible tests. You premise that we need to understand how humans and neanderthals mated and in what season makes no difference to the evidence we have. We know they did interbreed and that is enough to make Adam vanish in a trillion imaginary Atoms.
yumadtho?