July 29th, 2013
08:48 AM ET

Pope Francis on gays: 'Who am I to judge?'

By John L. Allen Jr. and Hada Messia, CNN

Aboard the Papal Airplane (CNN) - Pope Francis said Monday that he will not "judge" gays and lesbians, including gay priests, signaling a shift from his predecessor and offering another sign that the new pope is committed to changing the church's approach to historically marginalized groups.

“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis said in a wide-ranging news conference aboard the papal plane.

Though he was answering a question about the so-called "gay lobby" at the Vatican, the pope indicated a change in tone, if not in teaching, in the church's stance towards gays and lesbians more generally.

The pope was flying back to Rome from Brazil, where he spent the past week celebrating World Youth Day, an international Catholic event that drew millions.

Taking questions from reporters aboard the plane, the pope addressed nearly every hot-button issue facing the Roman Catholic Church: its alleged "gay lobby," Vatican bank corruption, the role of women, abortion, homosexuality and his own personal security.

But it was the pope's remarks on homosexuality - the fact that the head of a 1 billion-member church said that it's not his place to judge gays - that caused the widest stir.

"Pope Francis's brief comment on gays reveals great mercy," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and editor at America, a Catholic magazine based in New York.

"Today Pope Francis has, once again, lived out the Gospel message of compassion for everyone," Martin said.

The pontiff spoke  for an hour and a half in the back of the plane that was carrying him back to Italy after his first international trip as pope to Brazil, where he was greeted by massive, frenzied crowds at every turn.

"I'm happy. It has been a beautiful trip, spiritually speaking; it has been good to me. I'm tired enough but with a heart full of joy," he said.

Here are the highlights from his press conference.

On the 'gay lobby' and homosexuality

The pope addressed the issue of an alleged "gay lobby" within the church. Hints that the Holy See contained a network of gay clergy surfaced last year in reports about a series of embarrassing leaks to Italian journalists.

The "Vatileaks" scandal factored in Benedict's shocking decision to resign this year, according to some church experts, as it impressed upon the 86-year-old pontiff that the modern papacy requires a vigorous and watchful presence.

"There's a lot of talk about the gay lobby, but I've never seen it on the Vatican ID card!" Francis said.

"When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency (to homosexuality) is not the problem ... they're our brothers."

The problem, he said was, lobbies that work against the interest of the church.

In 2005, during the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI, the Vatican issued directives barring from the priesthood men "who are actively homosexual, have deep-seated homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called 'gay culture.'"

Francis' brief remarks seem to signal a sharp shift from that policy.

On women

The pope also spoke out about the role of women in the church, saying it needs to be deeper and not end. But he brushed aside the possibility of ordaining women as priests, saying the church had spoken on the matter: "The church says no. That door is closed." He did say that more work needed to be done theologically on the role of women in the church.

On abortion

Pope watchers have noted that Francis said little to nothing about abortion on his trip to Brazil. Abortion is illegal in Brazil, except for cases in which the health of the mother is at risk. Laws were recently changed to allow abortions in cases in which the child would be born with certain life-threatening birth defects.

The pope said he had nothing to say on the trip about abortion because the church teachings against it were clear and this trip was the time for "positive" news.

On divorce

"I believe this is a time of mercy, a change of epoch," the pope said when asked about divorce. He said the group of eight cardinals tasked with reform will explore the issue of whether divorcees can receive Communion, which they are currently barred from doing.

On the Vatican Bank

The pope conceded he was unsure what to do with the Vatican Bank, which is known by its acronym IOR.

"Some say that it would be better if it were a bank, others say that it should be a foundation. Other say to shut it down. These are the suggestions going around. I don't know. I trust the commission's members that are working on the IOR. But I wouldn't be able to tell you how this story is going to end."

And as for what was in the black leather bag he carried onto the plane? A razor, a prayer book, a diary and a book about St. Theresa, but, the pope joked, "Certainly not the keys to the atomic bomb!"

He said he carried his own bags because, "It's normal, we have to be normal. We have to be accustomed to being normal."

CNN's Eric Marrapodi and Daniel Burke contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Abortion • Brazil • Catholic Church • Pope Francis • Vatican

soundoff (3,302 Responses)
  1. Mark

    Once again demonstrates how far from the Bible the heretical catholic church is and has been for thousands of years.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • Carl

      Why is "the bible" the standard? The bible itself was a selective collection.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Truth Matters

      Can you please elaborate on how this is heresy?

      July 29, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
  2. Bails

    I'm so glad to hear these words from the Pope! He is expressing Gods' mercy on all of us, even gay people. the Bible says "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". But I wonder....had his words been followed by the statement (to which he has already spoken earlier...), "but the Church maintains its belief that marriage is between a man and a woman"....would he have then been accused of being judgemental?

    July 29, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
  3. Genésio Furtado

    This Argentine Pope may represent the Latin America (=Spanish America) but not Brazil (the Portuguese America). Brazilians are NOT Latins and Brazil was never "Latin America" indeed, only South America. Brazilians are just Brazilians and Lusophones, not Latins (or Hispanics). By the way, speaking in Spanish in a Portuguese-speaking country shows he is, firstly, an Hispanic pope, not a pope of everyone at once. It was disrespectful to address to Brazilians in Spanish and not Portuguese, snubbing the language of the hosts, who payed hundreds of millions to support the World Youth Day. In United States he will speak in English or in Spanish to Americans?! He is not that alleged humble, on the contrary, he seems rather ambitious, wants to be a 'superstar'.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Savvy

      Latinate refers to any of the countries with "romance" language, ie derived from Latin. Portuguese is a romance language just like Spanish, Italian, and I suppose French. Brazilians therefore speak a Latinate language and are on American continent; therefore, they are in Latin America.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
      • Genésio Furtado

        No. It's so simpleton and out of realityto think that Brazil would Latin only because Portuguese is a language derived from Latin, as a well a Brazilian would be an "American" only because Brazil is on the American continent. "Latin" and "Latin America" ​​are terms associated and inherent to the world in Spanish, the Hispanic culture,that has nothing to do with Brazilian culture or Portuguese. Rather, they are very different. If you ever visit Brazil will realize that our reality is not that fantasy that only agencies to disseminate in English.

        July 29, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          The cultures may be different but Savvy is correct about the naming.

          July 29, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
        • Reckless

          You're mistaken. Look up the origin of Latino... It was used as an excuse for the French to claim they had a right to South America "Latin America". Hispanic refers to Spanish. Latino Refers to Latin. But Latino is really a useless term because it's so broad.

          July 29, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
      • Reckless

        Napoleon actually coined the term latino to justify France's involvement in South America. He should have said "Hispanic" as that applies to Spanish and therefore excludes Portuguese speaking countries.

        July 29, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
  4. teedofftaxpayer

    This Pope tells the people of Brazil who are poor to have "hope". If this Pope means that, then he should empty the coffers of the Catholic Church and give those people "hope". What does this church need so much money for, let them be the disciples of Christ and take care of the poor. They say the Churches are separate from the Vatican so they don't have to pay out lawsuits then if that's the case they have no use for the money.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Angel Moronic

      church definitely need $$ to prop up the Vatican bank

      July 29, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Truth Matters

      Do you think that selling all church property and giving it to the poor will take care of poverty in the long term?

      July 29, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • woodie

      All you really have to say is "I don't want to give anything to the poor", then let others decide that question for themselves. In other words, shut up and let the church decide how they operate and you decide how you operate.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
  5. Genésio Furtado

    The city gov of Rio is exaggerating. Serious calculations show that there was a maximum of 1 million people in Copacabana, similar to what occurs in some rock concerts, as of the Rolling Stones. We Brazilians saw last week a promiscuity of lies and ultramarketing around that Hispanic Pope.Something that reminds communist or fascist propaganda. The most influential media group in Brazil, Globo (TV and internet), was almost hired by the Vatican, and spent all week seeking to generate hysteria surrounding this pope (which is not humble really, rather he is very calculative). This Pope Argentine is very ambitious and has a false humility. Actually he wants to be idolized as Jesus Christ.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Ed

      Genésio. You should go easy on the caipirinha.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Uncle Freddy

      Genesio, you're a nut job. Calm down and grow up, quit being so self centered. Brazilians are Spanish speaking people with a Portugese dialect. Relax, homey. The Pope is awesome! He's a true man of God and the Vicar of Christ on earth! Deal with it.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
  6. Complectus

    I'm a atheist. (well agnostic really, but why split hares except for food?)
    So to me it's actually really nice to hear a pope preach something other than the normal hatespeach. Though if you look closely, he's not invalidating the bible's texts, but he's emphasizing the understanding/acceptance portion of it. There's a thousand and one things wrong with the bible (that whole leviticus thing is a thing. Definately a THING.), but it's good to see a pope that isn't afraid to get off the "ivory tower" and walk amongst the masses.

    I don't follow catholism based news that much, but I cannot remember the last time a pope walked amongs the people without being in the popemobile.

    At least maybe this pope will start to mend some of the wounds his church has caused.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • woodie

      If you are an atheist, why do you have any opinion about the church? Go back into the forest and wait till you are called.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
  7. Pete654

    Pope does not know what god thinks? I thought he was god's agent.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Angel Moronic

      Remember: God did not vote pope in. Pope was voted in by a group of old men.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • woodie

      God uses the Pope to talk to you.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
  8. lionlylamb


    July 29, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
  9. RobK

    Who is he to judge the clergy? He's the f'n POPE that's who.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Josh

      Judge not, sayeth the f'n Lord.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
  10. thetruthworks

    3M christian youths filled with the holy spirit converge on one location to share their faith and all the mainstream media cares about is the gay agenda.

    The mainstream media can't seem to understand the difference between, "being gay" and "doing gay". The Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years that no human has the ability to judge another human being, there is nothing new here. The catechism and natural law draws a clear distinction between instincts (which are neither moral nor immoral) and acting on those instincts in a manner that is intrinsically evil.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • QS

      Ah yes, one of my personal favorite religious conveniences – hate the sin, love the sinner.....if only "sin" weren't a manmade concept, maybe you'd have a point.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
      • Owl96

        Are you having trouble with the concept of a celebate gay?

        July 29, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
        • sam

          Are you having trouble with the concept of 'mind your own business and let people manage their own bodies'?

          July 29, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
        • cedar rapids

          why would a god be so cruel as to condemn someone born gay to a life alone and unloved?

          July 29, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • cedar rapids

      looks like you are being judgmental on the main stream media there thetruthworks

      July 29, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
  11. Ares


    July 29, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
  12. Tim

    Look, I'm an Athiest, but I'm pretty blown away by how rejecting everyone's comments are here. Let people believe what they want, or else you're just like psychotic religion fanatics that shove it in your face. The Pope just made a huge statement and shows that he's willing to adapt, be more open minded, and adapt to the new age. It's a step in the right direction, so what's wrong with that?

    July 29, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • HazyJoe

      nothing wrong with it, but the more religion adapts with the world, the more it becomes...agnostic.

      which i am

      July 29, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • Pedophile Hater

      I'm an Athiest too, but this Pope is making me want to give the church another try....said no one ever.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
    • QS

      When religion finally catches up to the rest of the modern world and realizes that, hey, ya know discriminating against people may not be the best way to go about things, it arrogantly refers to this belated move toward civility as "mercy" or "compassion"!

      When you're the last to arrive to the party, you don't get to take credit for being a good host.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
  13. weezer

    Just allow the priests to marry and you'll nearly eliminate the pedophile issue. This guy's alright.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
  14. lionlylamb


    Shakespeare is a friendly sort but alas many know him not... A penny will no longer leverage open the skirted valor's seminaries of sequenced womanhood any more than of manhood's lamenting wayward vices... Keeping everyone's chastity as being held sacred is an elusive affair ever stoically to be and become the ravenous wolf's gainfulness...

    Though there be critical ones thinking among the topmost branches of civilizations trees of disparagement offerings: the rooted labyrinths of reasoned deducing ways offers little minded goodness to be availed unto the soulless seekers whose only wisdom is found within travesty's demonic exuberances laying ever wastefully towards all graven worded reconciliations that the demonic do behest against many a Holy Believer in and of God's most unrighteous beneficiaries as being an unholy divider in search of disenfranchised souls to devour and chew upon...

    The gullibility's pragmatists are relationally transcribed be they overtly religious and even of the mundanely inverted against anything religious... The ever hardening of bitterness offerings runs ever continuously upon the mainstreamed religious waters unending motions... For without believer’s sanctifications who would be the beneficiaries witnesses..? Does not a cold-heart seek ever the warmth of another's heartfelt wondering ways..?

    Assuredly does not truth come from the readings of the word and knowing of each and all words understandable meanings..? Where then does truth remain standing if meanings cannot be as meaning felt devotional understandings..? Do not many people stop thinking becoming themselves as mindless beasts ever to be herded here to there and made to eat this thing and drink of the other thing..?

    Toward my belief system, religion is a personal belief and should not be a sociable consideration... Anyone's beliefs upon religious conjuring séances should be held personally and not be centered by any socialism of the religiously clairvoyant which tends to conjure their weekly seminary séances upon the weakly enamored folks ever forsaking the doctrines oaths… Emotionalisms are where religious circles are deemed rented and the renters pay steeply for a yarn’s worth... Therefore keep one's faith separated from religious teamsters who take and never give their folded flocks any causally rational explanations as to why there are reportedly many more of God's many sons then what Christendom so potentially claims there to be…

    I am affirmed full of faithfulness in there being a God who has born many godly sons even Satan himself who must have been so handsome, the rest of God's sons saw Satan's beauty and they all fell down at Satan's feet for he was so handsome... Nowadays we creatures of the mists do no more exemplify many of God's first born sons and have taken sides against God's many sons and we have named Jesus as God's first born which I no longer stand up to believe anymore. Jesus if anything was God's last son to be born and bore by a human woman which makes Jesus out to be a half-breed. C'mon God! Tell us all your truths in all of your first born sons being so born when Chaos once did rule supremely..!

    July 29, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Conner

      Ahem.... What?

      July 29, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
      • lionlylamb


        July 29, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
        • jumblebuck

          I hope for your sake you are tripping and will come down sometime in the upcoming hours and aren't plagued with PTSD so bad since Vietnam to make you spout such rubbish...please get help..

          July 29, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
        • lionlylamb

          Sired jumblebuck...

          I live on for my family's wants and ever onwards for my brother's forsaken Life as he endures his solitudes drunken ways for I too was once a drunkard... Death will prosper me soon enough and beforehand my all is in giving to the family of my soul's bereavements fidelities...


          July 29, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
  15. Filmmash

    So far, I like this Pope. Very humble.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Ted

      He is just trying to keep the Church from falling into abyss.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
      • Rubi

        the Church falling to an abyss? He just gather 3 million, new generation, youth. Can you tell me where is the Church falling into again?

        July 29, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
        • Pedophile Hater

          The US. Churches are closing fast and furiously here.

          July 29, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
        • QS

          Ya learn something new every day...."gathered" is apparently the new Catholic code word for "recruited".

          And I also apparently have 3 million more humans to feel sorry for.

          July 29, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
  16. coolusernametwo

    Is the Catholic church running out of priests? are they going to allow atheists in next?

    July 29, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Pedophile Hater

      Depends on how green your money is. Anything can be bought and has been in the Catholic Church.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:30 pm |

    Batman & Robin will love to hear Pope words.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
  18. ben_gahzi

    The real issue is what is he going to do to increase the supply of altar boys to his priests for their special services.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • God

      Are you looking for a job ben?

      July 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        And so God changed Ben's last name to "Dover"...

        July 29, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
  19. Johannesd

    God just changed his mind.

    July 29, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • God

      No...I told you "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

      July 29, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Stevie49

      He does that a lot (slavery, bratty kids, poly-cotton blends, shrimp scampi, etc.)

      July 29, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
  20. Colin

    Dear Catholics:

    God here.

    I don’t care what the Pope says about gays. In fact, I don’t care about anything, because, you see, I do not exist. The concept of a 13,700,00,000 year old being, capable of creating the entire Universe and its billions of galaxies, monitoring simultaneously the thoughts and actions of the 7 billion human beings on this planet is ludicrous.

    Second, if I did, I would have left you a book a little more consistent, timeless and independently verifiable than the collection of Iron Age Middle Eastern mythology you call the Bible. Hell, I bet you cannot tell me one thing about any of its authors or how and why it was edited over the Centuries, yet you cite them for the most extraordinary of claims.

    Thirdly, when I sent my “son” (whatever that means, given that I am god and do not mate) to Earth, he would have visited the Chinese, Ja.panese, Europeans, Russians, sub-Saharan Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Mongolians, Polynesians, Micronesians, Indonesians and native Americans, not just a few Jews. He would also have exhibited a knowledge of something outside of the Iron Age Middle East.

    Fourthly, I would not spend my time hiding, refusing to give any tangible evidence of my existence, and then punish those who are smart enough to draw the natural conclusion that I do not exist by burning them forever. That would make no sense to me, given that I am the one who elected to withhold all evidence of my existence in the first place.

    Fifthly, in the same vein, I would not make about 5% of the human population gay, then punish them for being that way. In fact, I wouldn’t care about how humans have $ex at all, given that I created all of the millions of millions of species on the planet, all of whom are furiously reproducing all the time. Human $ex would be of no interest to me, given that I can create Universes. Has it ever occurred to you that your obsession with making rules around human $ex is an entirely human affair?

    Sixth, I would have smited all traditional Catholics, (and evangelicals and fundamentalists) long before this. You people drive me nuts. You are so small minded and yet you speak with such false authority. Many of you still believe in the talking snake nonsense from Genesis. I would kill all of you for that alone and burn you for an afternoon (burning forever is way too barbaric even for me to contemplate).

    Seventh, the whole idea of members of one species on one planet surviving their own physical deaths to “be with me” is utter, mind-numbing nonsense. Grow up. You will die. Get over it. I did. Hell, at least you had a life. I never even existed in the first place.

    Eighth, I do not read your minds, or “hear your prayers” as you euphemistically call it. There are 7 billion of you. Even if only 10% prayed once a day, that is 700,000,000 prayers. This works out at 8,000 prayers a second – every second of every day. Meanwhile I have to process the 100,000 of you who die every day between heaven and hell. Dwell on the sheer absurdity of that for a moment.

    Ninthly, had I existed, do you really think my representation on Earth would have such a history of corruption, retardation of science, financial misdeeds, political intrigue, outright criminal behavior and $exual misconduct, including pedophilia, as the Vatican does. I mean, come on! As a CEO, I would be fired for allowing my organization to run amok century after century.

    Finally, the only reason you even consider believing in me is because of where you were born. Had you been born in India, you would likely believe in the Hindu gods, if born in Tibet, you would be a Buddhist. Every culture that has ever existed has had its own god(s) and they always seem to favor that particular culture, its hopes, dreams and prejudices. What, do you think we all exist? If not, why only yours?

    Look, let’s be honest with ourselves. There is no god. Believing in me was fine when you thought the World was young, flat and simple. Now we know how enormous, old and complex the Universe is.

    Move on – get over me. I did.


    July 29, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • JoeyJoe

      The fact that you feel so strongly that god does not exist that you would type all of that out makes me believe you are more fanatical about being atheist than most religious people are about their belief in god.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
      • AE

        Very true.

        July 29, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
      • Pedophile Hater

        Hardly, if a silly old man in a dress can command so much unnecessary attention.

        July 29, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Alma

      Hey wait a second... his son did come to the natives of America and start a church...

      July 29, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Colin is a Troll

      This loser named Colin types this EVERY SINGLE TIME there is an article about God or the Catholic church. Dude is a troll and his material is stale... He's been doing this for at least a year now. Get a new schtick guy. I'm sure even atheists think you're lame.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
      • AE

        One time he accused me of belonging to a church that only offers pre-packaged answers...

        ...and he comes on here often posting pre-packaged answers.


        July 29, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        Colin (the original one who opposes religion and unfounded beliefs) is one of the best-informed and well-spoken contributors on here.

        July 29, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
        • Colin

          Tahnk you Tom Tom

          July 29, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
      • Pedophile Hater

        A "new schtick?" Like religion has? Different old man in dress? That's a new schtick?

        July 29, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
        • Colin is a Troll

          ^Good one

          July 29, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
      • Get Real

        " I'm sure even atheists think you're lame."

        Nope, you couldn't be further from fact. Colin does a great job at research and presentation.

        July 29, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
        • AE

          He copies and pastes his packaged answers over and over.

          He has been posting this little rant for quite awhile:


          July 29, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
        • Get Real


          He has taken a great deal of time putting together his essays. He posts them as appropriate to the topic at hand. You are free to ignore them if you have seen them before, or if have no particular issues that you want to address.

          * How many prepackaged Bible quotes appear each day? And how many times have we seen your prepackaged Martin Luther King, Jr. Kitchen Table spiel?

          July 29, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          The bible is a good source of prepackaged answers. People tend to wear that out, just as others have their own favorites. I've agreed to give that a good read, and have, and do. I recommend you read Colin's stuff, AE.

          July 29, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          And you still do not have any cogent explanations for god and your belief other than you do believe because you hear god's voice which is indistinguishable from your imagination.

          July 29, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
        • Colin

          Thank you "Get Real".

          July 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
        • AE

          * How many prepackaged Bible quotes appear each day? And how many times have we seen your prepackaged Martin Luther King, Jr. Kitchen Table spiel?–

          Eh, I'm just trying to get a comment from him.

          One of the last times commented on the subject he went into a personal attack and his comments were deleted by the moderator.

          It is funny to me when he criticizes me for using pre-packaged answers.... and then uses pre-packaged answers himself.

          July 29, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
    • Andrew

      First, let me say that each point you make is a series of conversations that would need to be had to vette your statements. Chaos Theory tells is that little things have big impacts, so the low-level elements for and against your statements make all the difference and cannot be discussed in this forum. You are saying nothing new, and there are plenty of valid arguments both for and against what you are stating. In the end, it is about faith. You have faith God does not exist, I have faith God does. And while intellect is an element of faith, so is emotion. So I ask you, do you not believe in God, or do you not want to believe in God? Those are vastly different statements with vastly different impacts. I leave it to you to do your due diligence and decide, or don't and keep making high level statements that don't get to the real heart ot the issue. Second, "Evidence that Demand a Verdict? by Josh McDowell. Give it a try, and make sure you read the part about the author. God be with you.

      July 29, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        "So I ask you, do you not believe in God, or do you not want to believe in God?"

        I very badly want to believe in God. However, I also want very much want to believe in leprechauns and their pots of gold. I would love to quit my job and go chasing some rainbows for a living, grabbing those green little fellows and ask for their pots of gold which they have to give you if you caught one. The problem is that no amount of my belief will change the fact that leprechauns don't exist, unless you think it works like pixie dust which run's solely on faith. If you don't believe hard enough then you'll never get off the ground, and make sure you don't have a crisis of faith high above the city...

        July 29, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • maggie

      You see the bible refers to the earth as a circle and says that the universe is expanding. Men only recently found out the earth was not flat and all along it was in the bible. All they had to do is to read it.

      July 29, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
      • Colin

        Maggie, as to the "Earth is round claim, I assume you are referring to the pulp fiction claim one often sees trotted out about the Book of Isaiah. The actual verse is:

        “ It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”

        It is from the second oldest part of the book of Isaiah. It was not written by the prophet Isaiah and is often called “Deutero-Isaiah” as a nod to its dubious authenticity. In fact, it was written during the 6th-century BCE, about 100-200 years after the original author of the Book of Isaiah died. As any fifth grade student knows, a circle is very different to a sphere. There is nothing in Deutero-Isaiah that suggests its author knew the Earth was a sphere. Further, the same author, a few verses later, refers to “the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth.” Neither circles nor spheres have “ends” such that it is ludicrous to think that the author was speaking geometrically or knew the Earth was a sphere.

        The "Universe is expanding is a new one. Please provide the reference.

        July 29, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
      • LeRoy_Was_Here

        Where does the Bible say that the Universe is expanding?

        The ancient Greek philosophers knew that the Earth was (approximately) round, and in fact were familiar with several proofs of that, centuries before Jesus of Nazareth came along. They were pagans. In contrast, the Bible refers to "the four corners of the Earth". [Does a circle have four corners?!?] Many maps produced during the devout Middle Ages showed the four corners of a presumably flat Earth. Daniel Boorstin, a former chief librarian of the Library of Congress, has written that medieval Christians had to overcome the ignorance of Christian geography before they could set out on the Age of Discovery.

        July 30, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
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