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Bishop: Pope was 'on a high' during gay remarks
Cardinal Timothy Dolan in Rome before the conclave in Rome that elected Pope Francis.
July 31st, 2013
05:53 PM ET

Bishop: Pope was 'on a high' during gay remarks

By Daniel Burke, CNN

(CNN) - The nation's leading Roman Catholic archbishop said Wednesday that Pope Francis was "on a high" from his first international trip as pontiff when he said "Who am I to judge?" gays and lesbians.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, who traveled last week to Brazil with the pope for World Youth Day, said the massive turnout - estimates ran as high as 3 million - and ecstatic crowds likely gave Francis hope that he would "revive the church on his home continent of Latin America."

Francis was the archbishop of Buenos Aires in Argentina from 1998 until his papal election in March.

"The pope was visibly `on a high' from his first international pastoral visit in Rio," Dolan said. "Understandably so. Because I was there with him, I can verify that the superlatives being used — `oceanic' crowds, `frenzied' welcomes, `inspirational, heartfelt' words — are not exaggerations at all."

On the plane from Brazil back to Rome on Monday, the pope gave an 80-minute press conference in which he addressed a number of controversial issues for the Catholic Church, including homosexuality, the ordination of women and scandals involving a so-called "gay lobby" at the Vatican.

Regarding gay priests, Francis said, “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

READ MORE: Pope Francis on gays: `Who am I to judge?'

The remarks were read by some as a rejection of previous church policy, including a 2005 directive that barred men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" from the priesthood.

Not so, Dolan said on Wednesday in a blog post.

"No change in church teaching here . . . or no intended `correction' to a more `dour' approach by his predecessors," said Dolan.

In fact, the archbishop continued, Francis does not have the power to change church doctrine.

"Catholics know that the pope, like all of us, is a servant of the truth of the Gospel, not a crafter. Doctrine is a given; it is settled, inherited, faithfully passed on. That’s his duty, and he’s sure doing it well."

As archbishop of New York and president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Dolan is widely considered the most powerful Catholic official in the country. He was also part of the conclave that elected Francis.

Since the pope's comments on Monday, conservatives have framed them as a change in tone, not substance, noting that Francis quoted from the Catholic Catechism and would hardly announced a change in doctrine during an impromptu press conference.

CNN Vatican analyst John Allen noted, however, that "at a certain point, tone becomes substance if it’s seen as revitalizing the prospects of the church."

READ MORE: How Pope Francis is revolutionizing the church

Rather than a change in doctrine, the pope's "brief remarks were about mercy," Dolan said.

"The church considers unjust discrimination against any homosexual a sin," the archbishop said, adding that "homosexual acts, which are contrary to Revelation...can always be healed by God's mercy."

"And when God’s mercy is sought, it is always given, the sin wiped away and forgotten; because of this, nobody — not the Pope, not a bishop, not a priest — can judge another!"

Other church-watchers noted, however, that Francis himself cited a previous pope while dismissing the possibility of women's ordination during the same airplane press conference.

"By saying that John Paul II had `definitively…closed the door to women priests,' Francis was himself pointing to the fact that popes determine church law," wrote blogger Mark Silk at Religion News Service. 

Dolan closed his blog post by lamenting that so much media coverage has concentrated on "these weary issues" rather than "the noble themes that ran through Copacabana Beach," where World Youth Day was held.

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Catholic Church • Gay rights • Homosexuality • Pope Francis

soundoff (930 Responses)
  1. Sunflower2

    "Catholics know that the pope, like all of us, is a servant of the truth of the Gospel, not a crafter. Doctrine is a given; it is settled, inherited, faithfully passed on. That’s his duty, and he’s sure doing it well." This is PRECISELY why the church is dying. It NEEDS new blood, new doctrines, and to come forth out of the dark ages....

    August 1, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      I am not a "servant of the truth of the gospel" since I know the god spell to be false.
      They do need to get , not out of the dark ages, but out of the bronze age, and put the bible down. It is clearly not reality.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Jim Bob Jones

      The Church isn't dying.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
      • Colin

        It is in the USA and Western Europe. Only Hispanic immigration keeps its numbers here from looking a lot worse. It now depends on Africa and South America for growth, where education is weak.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
      • lamelionheart

        J. B. Jones...

        Man made cloisters of fabricated churches do all crumble to their ending ways... Some sooner than others... Still do many fade away into the dustiness trails ever to become a never more... As science dares to be and become the professor of profitable prophecies within the newness of many serviced issues; many backseat drivers become scientific wonders of allurements ever unquenchable seething arrhythmias around the many Pentecostal degrees of servitudes un-deniability's waywardness oozing towards wantonness plunders...

        August 1, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
  2. Overlord Number 310,789 and counting....

    2013 and it never ceases to amaze me when these self appointed holy men discuss what a super being overlord wants and or doesn't want, might as well ask what Santa Claus wants, after all he is just as powerful as a god , "he sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake". Sure sounds like a god to me. All Hail The Mighty Cringle!
    BOW!!!
    YIELD!!!!
    KNEEL!!!!
    AND GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, ERR UMM, I MEAN DONATIONS!!!!
    God wants a porsche and he wants me to drive it!!!!!!

    August 1, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
  3. Colin

    Science again challenging dogma. My favorite example of the Catholic Church ineptly trying to answer advances in science is the whole silly idea of the immaculate conception of Mary. In the early 1800s, it was becoming increasingly clear that females added genetic material to their children. This was before Gregor Mendel and his peas, so the mechanism was not understood, but the idea was. Women passed characteristics onto their offspring. Before this, they were considered mere pods for male sperm to grow.

    This put the Catholic Church in a bind because, they still held to the Adam and Eve theory of the origins of life. Under this primitive view, original sin was inherited by all humans. So, if Mary had original sin and passed it onto her offspring, Jesus would be infected, “virus like” with original sin. What to do?

    Pope Pius had the answer. Using his “magic powers” of Papal Infallibility, he declared that Mary was free from original sin when she was born. Thus, she could not pass it onto baby Jesus. Now, what evidence did he have? None. Zero. He made it up, based on earlier church writers who likewise based their writings on earlier writers etc. But, at some point, like virtually all Catholic dogma, it was made up. Manufactured, albeit with the best of intentions.

    Ironically, had he waited a few more years, Darwin would have written The Origin of Species” and the whole silly idea of Adam and Eve would have disappeared.

    Ya gotta love the Catholics. Their capacity for taking silly mythology seriously knows no bounds.

    August 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
  4. JR

    I'm afraid if you came here expecting to drink the kool-aide and have smoke blown up your ass then you're in the wrong place. Perhaps FAUX "news" will suite you better.

    August 1, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
  5. A New Mouthpiece

    So, the little archbishop is now the pope's personal mouthpiece, huh? We just have to wonder if the pope knows that and agrees with it. A pope can change things within the church once they come into power. It goes with the territory. It's just like any corporate head who is Elected into office as the pope is. So, this thing that the pope doesn't have the power, doesn't and shouldn't hold water. Of course he does. Otherwise, popes would be completely unable to issue church directives, change policies, etc. So, Dolan, sit down already, buddy. You're getting quite irritating to say the least!

    August 1, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Jim Bob Jones

      Dolan didn't speak for the Pope. In fact, neither man said anything that the Church hasn't taught for decades.

      Regarding the Pope changing things . . . you oversimplified the issue. The Pope can't contradict God.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
      • BooeyC

        Of course not, how can one contradict something that doesn't exist. And even if he did exist, how can one contradict a deity that he has no way of knowing what that deity believes or thinks. The bible and all church rules were written by men. If he's contradicting anyone, he's contradicting a few primitive people from ages ago who sat down to write some stories that reflected their times, but have none to little bearing on the modern world.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
      • A New Mouthpiece

        So, you think Dolan didn't speak for the pope? That's where we'll differ with you based upon those comments he made with regard to the pope's. Perhaps he was doing damage control. At any rate, I don't see how it could come any closer.

        As for the pope contradicting God, one need go no further than to seriously then ask why the pope and his predecessors disrespectfully allow the use of the Holy Name "Father" in reference to himself and his priests? Don't they know that is against Biblical teachings? "And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, which is in Heaven." - MATTHEW 23:9 (KJV) Also, "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." - MATTHEW 23:12 (KJV)

        And the pope, a mere mortal man, also takes great pride in calling himself "His Holiness". That is another 'no-no' according to the Bible! "And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS, TO THE LORD." - EXODUS 28:36 (KJV) So, Holiness to WHOM? Notice that nowhere does it say HOLINESS to the pope! Further, "Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of His, and give thanks at the remembrance of His holiness." - PSALM 30:4 (KJV) Notice again that the term "His holiness" is making reference to the LORD, not to the pope. In sum, there are Plenty of contradictions here with what your pope allows versus what God says in Scripture. Case Closed.

        August 1, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
  6. lamelionheart

    Justice by the unjust reaping injustices are justly arranged in the wordage of youth's communalisms...

    August 1, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
  7. TONE

    @Dave
    I abhor violence done to anyone. Jesus does not sign on to violence, hypocrits would use God's name to commit atrocities.
    The devil do not respect religion he respect goodness of peoples heart. Religion are man made rules. you could be labeled a christian, and still be a child of satan.

    August 1, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Jesus used violence. Don't lie
      "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

      Matthew 10:34

      [Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

      John 2:15

      Part of the contradictions in the whole myth of Jesus

      August 1, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Colin

      Hmmm, let’s see, what did Jesus say about people who would not bow down to him? “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27).

      But, he was probably just finishing off a parable, right? Didn’t he come to spread peace? Let’s ask him.

      “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” (Matthew 10: 34-35).

      Probably just a bad day. I’m sure he wouldn’t want to hurt anybody who did nothing more than not want their children to subscribe to Jesus’ religious view."If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea” (Mark 9:42).

      Oh well, I guess he was violent after all.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Tone
      You do of course realize that the entire concept of non-violence came from the Buddha, right?
      The NT was written AFTER the influence of the Buddha's teachings made it way to the region the writers/re-writers/editors of the bible were.
      If you study the Buddha's teachings, you will find his words all over the Christ character. It's just that the Buddha didn't care if there was a god or not, so the writers of the bible had to acknowledge his influence but change his message to include a god, so they modelled much of Christ after the Buddha.

      It amazes me how many believers have not actually looked into the whole history of their book of magic.

      August 1, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
  8. huh

    So Dolan now speaks for the Pope?

    August 1, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • Jim Bob Jones

      He didn't.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
  9. Church Motto

    One step forward 10 steps back ... Looks like this guy is still bitter about losing our on being a Pope

    August 1, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
  10. Nnamdi

    Beelzebub
    Well your name says it all, need I say more ? You and your likes can Go ahead and have your fun and make jokes about the Almighty. You can choose your actions but not the consequences. It is okay for you to voice your idiotic opinions but when someone disagrees, it devolves to an insult on the church. Carry on, but know that the day of reckoning will come and then it will be between you and Your God ! I wonder how weak humans like you who dont have and control over something as little as your digestion can foist upon themselves, the audacity to insult God and His Church ? It is mind buggling to me.

    August 1, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • Doobs

      Well, here's something else to "buggle" your mind – proxy threats of eternal torture by your deity have as much value as telling me that I need to be in bed by 9 o'clock or Santa won't leave me any toys.

      That is to say, none at all. I am not frightened of nonexistent punishment.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • Which God?

      Nnamdi, empty threats from an invisible sky-fairy. The day of reckoning has beenpreached for a thousand years. Hasn't happened yet, and it is most doubtfull your tribal god is potent enough to get out of its own way.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Doobs

      I meant to ask, what does my digestion have to do with my "eternal salvation"? Is there a lack of porta-potties in heaven?

      August 1, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Beelzebub

      Garsh Nnamdi, I hate being mind buggled as well. Huh.

      So yeah, you sound schizophrenic. Obviously your turn to use the computer in the psych ward was up. Have a nice day and take an extra haldol like a good little child of god should.

      August 1, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
  11. Rob

    Thank goodness the Pope has Cardinal Dolan around to make excuses for him. Otherwise the Pope might look like a drugged up fool. Oh, wait ...

    August 1, 2013 at 11:58 am |
  12. boocat

    Dolan is a lying hypocrite. He was the one that hid millions from the Milwaukee diocese so that the RCC could not pay settlements to the victims of abuse.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:55 am |
  13. Nnamdi

    Jesus the Christ
    Just shut your idiotic mouth for God's sake. I am not Catholic but your lies are really anoying, I bet you have not travelled outside you state much less the U S A to know what goes on elswhere. The Catholic Church is one of the most if not the most Charitable organisation. Quit spreading your hateful lies. If you dont have any thing to say , just shut and no one will be mad at you but you ignorance is really annoying !

    August 1, 2013 at 11:52 am |
    • Beelzebub

      Geesh Nnamdi, you respond just like a frightened little christian would – showing love, tolerance and forgiveness. Good for you! LOL!

      August 1, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Real Satanist

      Uh yeah Nnamdi, you're acting a little more hateful than even I would. Your reaction indicates that you have some serious doubts toward your jesus. I suggest you come over to my side...you're a lot more like me than what a christian is supposed to be...

      August 1, 2013 at 11:55 am |
    • Jesus the Christ

      Oh my me! You just told your Christ to shut his idiotic mouth! Would I tell someone to do that? My oh my! Obviously you've been going to my churches more than you should. Perhaps, like the satanist suggested, you ought to worship satan. You're mean enough, it would suit you far better than my teaching of "turning the other cheek" or "love on another."

      August 1, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Observer

      Catholic charities have done a lot of good. They have also been subsidized in part by all of the atheists and agnostics who have had to pay more taxes to make up for what the churches don't pay.

      August 1, 2013 at 11:57 am |
      • Jim Bob Jones

        Would you rather have churches pay taxes and have a direct influence on public policy?

        August 1, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
      • mindless lackey # 473

        Jim,

        What are you talking about? they already do.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          No. They have indirect influence. There are laws that limit what churches can do in the political arena.

          If you tax churches, then those restrictions that protect the separation of church and state and lifted. Is that what you want?

          August 1, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
        • mindless lackey # 473

          When stem cell research can be hobble because of his beliefs, when the religious have many lobbies in Washington,
          when text books can be altered, that is as direct if not more direct influence than most tax payers have.

          they get the influence – they might as well pay like everyone else.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
        • Observer

          Jim Bob Jones

          "If you tax churches, then those restrictions that protect the separation of church and state and lifted. Is that what you want?"

          The separaton of church and state has NOTHING to do with whether churches pay taxes. Our nation was created that way.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
      • Observer

        Jim Bob Jones

        "Would you rather have churches pay taxes and have a direct influence on public policy?"

        They don't have a direct influence on public policy? Get serious. Sure they should pay taxes. Why should everyone else have to subsidize the millions and millions of dollars spent by them to fight against equal rights for gays, for instance?

        August 1, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          See above.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
        • mindless lackey # 473

          And don't forget the whole abortion issue.

          The supreme court had to rule on it in the 70s and STILL – today, that right comes under attack from religious lobbies in Washington.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
      • Saraswati

        The still would probably not pay taxes but would have to fill out a lot more paperwork as standard non-profits and political organizations. The real sticking point would be release of all donor names.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
      • Jim Bob Jones

        @ mindless lackey # 473

        Blame that on Catholics who vote.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
        • mindless lackey # 473

          http://firststreetresearch.cqpress.com/2012/03/22/the-catholic-lobby-that-isnt/

          Almost $11.5 million poured into Washington in 2011 ....why do their schools each need a lobby in Washington Jim?

          August 1, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
    • Which God?

      Nnamdi, if you want to swear, do sp "correctly:" It's "jesus h fukking christ!" There, fixed now.

      August 1, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • Doobs

      Nndami,

      How many state of the art hospitals did the RCC build in Kolkata with the millions that Mother Teresa raked in?

      August 1, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
      • JR

        As the sick bitch horded all the money and gold and re-used blunt needles and told those dying in the dirt that Jesus loves their suffering.

        August 1, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
        • Doobs

          The money that was designated for charitable purposes went into the RCC's general fund, to be spent on whatever purpose they wanted. There is no oversight or accountability. No one knows how much money she took in.

          Add taking stolen money from Charles Keating, Robert Maxwell and "Baby Doc" Duvalier and you have a nice picture of this so called "Saint of the Poor" and the RCC's money grubbing at the expense of the poorest of the poor, while convincing them that god made them poor because he loves them so very much.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • JR

      Sure, we protect thousands of child raping priests who have raped tens of thousands of children and slaughtered millions but golly, have you seen what we're doing down at the soup kitchen!

      August 1, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
  14. Doc Vestibule

    Let's all try to be adults and refrain from resorting to name calling, Mr. Poopy Pants.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:49 am |
  15. YeaOk

    Freak.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:47 am |
  16. Johnny Triumph

    Amusing to me that Man, not God, leads the Catholic church. They pledge that God is the only only one who can judge yet Man is the one making the policy decisions that guide the church. God is consistent, this paradox is inconsistent and would cause God to cease to exist; essentially forcing God to bow to the decisions of Man. None of this makes any sense at all and shows that the Catholic church is misguided.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Jim Bob Jones

      @Johnny Triumph

      You got it backwards. The leaders of the Church are entrusted to pass on the will of God.

      August 1, 2013 at 11:48 am |
      • Jesus the Christ

        Yo Jim, who "entrusted" the leaders of the Catholic church with gods word? I mean, wow, how pretentious can you sound? Why doesn't god entrust your leaders to stop world hunger? Why don't God entrust your leaders to mind their own business and let him come down and tell us everything he needs us to know ourselves?

        August 1, 2013 at 11:51 am |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          @ Jesus the Christ

          Matthew 16 15:19

          The Catholic Church DOES work to resolve issues of hunger and injustice.

          It also does not confuse permissiveness with love or compassion.

          August 1, 2013 at 11:56 am |
        • Jesus the Christ

          I'm sorry Jim, where did I, Jesus say "Do not confuse permissiveness with compassion?" You and your man-made religion...you can say anything you like and call it god made. LOL!

          August 1, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Primewonk

      "God is consistent"

      So can I sell my daughter as a sèx slave or not. Am I to murder gay folks or not? Are women still unclean twice as long after giving birth to girls than boys, or not?

      August 1, 2013 at 11:52 am |
  17. Jim Bob Jones

    The only reason Dolan said anything is that the uninformed media tried to pretend the Pope was changing some Church policy. The Pope said nothing that the Church hasn't taught for decades. If you think it is new, you didn't know what the Church teaches in the first place.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • Jesus the Christ

      it teaches hatred, intolerance and bigotry. It suppressed and continues to suppress people in poor countries while still taking their money, promising them salvation if they starve while huge cathedrals are built to an invisible god.

      August 1, 2013 at 11:47 am |
      • Jim Bob Jones

        @Jesus the Christ

        You are either intentionally provocative or woefully misinformed about what Catholics do on a daily basis, what the Church teaches and what its mission is.

        August 1, 2013 at 11:50 am |
        • Jesus the Christ

          What did I say above that is wrong? Your churches are huge, they are filled with gold and silver that should be melted down and used to feed and clothe the poor. You, my dear man, are the one that is WOEFULLY misled.

          August 1, 2013 at 11:52 am |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          @Jesus the Christ
          You said, "What did I say above that is wrong? Your churches are huge, they are filled with gold and silver that should be melted down and used to feed and clothe the poor. You, my dear man, are the one that is WOEFULLY misled."

          Everything you said was wrong. The Church does not teach hatred or intolerance or bigotry. It teaches to love all people and hate all sin.

          Regarding suppressing people in poor countries, that is quite possibly the most ridiculous statement you made. There are millions of Catholics who work to help the most needy in the world and to raise them out of poverty and suffering. The Catholic Social Justice model/teaching is compassionate, foreword thinking, comprehensive and effective. The problem is that suffering will always exist.

          True, many Catholic Churches are huge, but melting down all the gold and silver and statues in the Catholic Church will not solve world hunger.

          Maybe the world governments and every person on earth can melt down all of their belongings and that will help.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
  18. sly

    "Catholics dont hate".
    -–
    Hmmmm ... I thought there was a little something going on in Northern Ireland ... like the worlds most terrorist attacks in the past 200 years? (and people think the Muslims are violent ... they are rookies at the terrorist business).

    August 1, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • Jim Bob Jones

      Catholics are not TAUGHT to hate.

      People are sinful and don't always practice what they are taught.

      Catholicism isn't the problem. The failure to practice its tenets is the problem.

      August 1, 2013 at 11:46 am |
      • Observer

        Jim Bob Jones

        "Catholicism isn't the problem. The failure to practice its tenets is the problem."

        Not exactly. The failure to practice its tenets is often a good thing. That's why we don't have slavery anymore.That's why we have tried to eliminate discrimination against women, slaves, gays, and the handicapped.

        August 1, 2013 at 11:51 am |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          The Catholic Church is not anti-woman or anti-gay or anti-(insert group of people.)

          The Catholic Church is anti-sin.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
        • Observer

          Jim Bob Jones

          "The Catholic Church is anti-sin."

          Those "sins" include women teaching men and handicapped people appearing in God's churches.

          You need to read the Bible.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
      • philip

        "Catholics are not TAUGHT to hate."

        Are you sure???

        Is that why the pope shook hands with Hitler in WW2 and blessed (catholic) soldiers ON BOTH SIDES to go and kill their fellow man? Catholics killing Catholics!!! I sure don't think the pope read Matt 5:43-45 and John 13:35 because that sure isn't showing love!!!

        August 1, 2013 at 11:57 am |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          We are to pray for those who persecute us. Praying for our enemies and treating everyone with dignity, even if they are evil (Hitler), is required of all Christians.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:06 pm |
        • philip

          oh, so Jesus was saying that we should JOIN the enemy and SHARE in the sins of them? I don't think thats what is meant by "praying for those who persecute us." Stop twisting the scripture to defend the deeds of the catholic church.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          @philip
          You said, "oh, so Jesus was saying that we should JOIN the enemy and SHARE in the sins of them? I don't think thats what is meant by "praying for those who persecute us." Stop twisting the scripture to defend the deeds of the catholic church."

          I did not say anything about joining the enemy or sharing in their sins. We are to pray for everyone even if we don't like them. We are commanded by Christ to pray for our enemies. That does not imply that we pray they are successful at doing evil things, but instead of turning to HATE, we pray for those who wrong us. We are to be compassionate and let go of anger. Anger is not of God.

          The whole point of this thread was that Catholics are not TAUGHT to hate. You started heading off on a tangent.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
        • philip

          If the catholic church feels that your own spiritual brother is an enemy just because they are from a different country and that its ok to KILL them, then they DEFINITELY are not representing true Christianity!! You might want to read those scriptures I listed again and rethink the idea of Catholics killing Catholics. If Jesus was on earth back then, do you think he would approve?

          August 1, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
        • philip

          I am the one staying on topic. You failed to show how the churches actions in condoning Hitlers ideology and going to war and killing your own "brothers" is not TEACHING HATRED. Catholics today will still go to war even if it means killing another catholic from another country. THAT IS NOT LOVE, THAT IS HATRED!!

          August 1, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
        • Jim Bob Jones

          @philip

          Blessing Catholics on both sides of an army is not necessarily contradictory. The blessing could be for their safety or salvation, but not for victory. It could be to do their duty for their country, but not with the express intent of killing others. However, I'm just speculating. Do you know what the wording of the blessings?

          Don't confuse the objectives of a government with the spiritual objectives of the Church.

          August 1, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
        • philip

          Blessing Catholics on both sides of an army is not necessarily contradictory. The blessing could be for their safety or salvation, but not for victory. It could be to do their duty for their country, but not with the express intent of killing others. However, I'm just speculating. Do you know what the wording of the blessings?
          Don't confuse the objectives of a government with the spiritual objectives of the Church.

          Thats your answer? I honestly wish you used common sense in your argument. ANY blessing of a wrong/evil, no matter what the words are is still a blessing, directly or indirectly! Both sides of a war were told by their catholic priests that God was on "their side." The Germans had it on their belt buckle, the Americans on the side of their shoulder. AND THEN THEY SLAUGHTERED EACH OTHER! The catholic church (and other religions) is guilty of doing this for thousands of years. And this STILL HAPPENS TODAY. This is not what Jesus taught and did.

          The Bible teaches that if the government objectives conflict with God's commands then God's authority trumps man's and we obey God. If EVERYBODY claiming to be Christian refused to fight, there would have been no war. Imagine that!

          August 1, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Contrary to appearances, the Judas Cradle is actually a very comfortable chair.

      August 1, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • Reality

      Our War on Terror and Aggression:

      An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

      The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent and Not So Recent Body Count

      As the koranic/mosque driven acts of terror and horror continue:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. Iraqi civilians killed as of 05/10/2013/, 113,249-123,978 mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

      o 24) Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:18am EDT
      o
      BAGHDAD (Reuters) – A suicide bomber detonated an explosive-packed car outside a Shi'ite Muslim office in central Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 190 in an attack bearing the hallmarks of Iraq's al Qaeda affiliate.
      The bombing on a Shi'ite religious office comes at a sensitive time, with the country's fractious Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish blocs locked in a crisis that threatens to unravel their power-sharing deal and spill into sectarian tensions."

      25) BURGAS, Bulgaria | Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:27am EDT

      (Reuters) – A suicide bomber carried out an attack that killed seven people in a bus transporting Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, the interior minister said on Thursday, and Israel said Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants were to blame.

      26 ) September 12, 2012
      U.S. AMBASSADOR KILLED
      Envoy to Libya dies in rocket blast

      27) Boston Marathon horror – April 2013, four dead, hundreds injured and maimed for life. A
      Continued below:
      Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

      -Operation Iraqi Freedom- The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles as of 09/15/2011/, 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      – Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed mostly due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror,

      – Sa-dd-am, his sons and major he-nchmen have been deleted. Sa-dd-am's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait was saved.

      – Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

      – North Korea is still u-ncivil but is contained.

      – Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

      – The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. And unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “squ-are one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

      – – Fa-na–tical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

      – Timothy McVeigh was exe-cuted. Terry Nichols escaped the death penalty twice because of deadlocked juries. He was sentenced to 161 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole,[3][7] and is incarcerated in ADX Florence, a super maximum security prison near Florence, Colorado. He shares a cellblock that is commonly referred to as "Bombers Row" with Ramzi Yousef and Ted Kaczynski

      – Eric Ru-dolph is spending three life terms in pri-son with no par-ole.

      – Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

      – Islamic Sudan, Dar-fur and So-malia are still terror hot spots.
      – The terror and tor-ture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Ra-dovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war – charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

      The capture of Ratko Mladić: (Serbian Cyrillic: Ратко Младић, pronounced [râtkɔ mlǎːditɕ], born 12 March 1943[1][2]) is an accused war criminal and a former Bosnian Serb military leader. On May 31, 2011, Mladić was extradited to The Hague, where he was processed at the detention center that holds suspects for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).[3] His trial began on 3 June 2011.

      – the bloody terror brought about by the Ja-panese, Na-zis and Co-mmunists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

      – Bin Laden was executed for crimes against humanity on May 1, 2011

      – Ditto for Anwar al-Awlaki on September 30, 2011

      – Ditto for Abu Yahya al-Libi on June 5, 2012

      August 1, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Reality

      Our War on Terror and Aggression:

      An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

      The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent and Not So Recent Body Count

      As the koranic/mosque driven acts of terror and horror continue:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. Iraqi civilians killed as of 05/10/2013/, 113,249-123,978 mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.or-g/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

      o 24) Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:18am EDT
      o
      BAGHDAD (Reuters) – A suicide bomber detonated an explosive-packed car outside a Shi'ite Muslim office in central Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 190 in an attack bearing the hallmarks of Iraq's al Qaeda affiliate.
      The bombing on a Shi'ite religious office comes at a sensitive time, with the country's fractious Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish blocs locked in a crisis that threatens to unravel their power-sharing deal and spill into sectarian tensions."

      25) BURGAS, Bulgaria | Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:27am EDT

      (Reuters) – A suicide bomber carried out an attack that killed seven people in a bus transporting Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, the interior minister said on Thursday, and Israel said Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants were to blame.

      26 ) September 12, 2012
      U.S. AMBASSADOR KILLED
      Envoy to Libya dies in rocket blast

      27) Boston Marathon horror – April 2013, four dead, hundreds injured and maimed for life. A
      Continued below:
      Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

      -Operation Iraqi Freedom- The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles as of 09/15/2011/, 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      – Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed mostly due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror,

      – Sa-dd-am, his sons and major he-nchmen have been deleted. Sa-dd-am's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait was saved.

      – Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

      – North Korea is still u-ncivil but is contained.

      – Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

      – The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. And unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “squ-are one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

      – – Fa-na–tical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

      – Timothy McVeigh was exe-cuted. Terry Nichols escaped the death penalty twice because of deadlocked juries. He was sentenced to 161 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole,[3][7] and is incarcerated in ADX Florence, a super maximum security prison near Florence, Colorado. He shares a cellblock that is commonly referred to as "Bombers Row" with Ramzi Yousef and Ted Kaczynski

      – Eric Ru-dolph is spending three life terms in pri-son with no par-ole.

      – Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

      – Islamic Sudan, Dar-fur and So-malia are still terror hot spots.
      – The terror and tor-ture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Ra-dovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war – charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

      The capture of Ratko Mladić: (Serbian Cyrillic: Ратко Младић, pronounced [râtkɔ mlǎːditɕ], born 12 March 1943[1][2]) is an accused war criminal and a former Bosnian Serb military leader. On May 31, 2011, Mladić was extradited to The Hague, where he was processed at the detention center that holds suspects for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).[3] His trial began on 3 June 2011.

      – the bloody terror brought about by the Ja-panese, Na-zis and Co-mmunists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

      – Bin Laden was executed for crimes against humanity on May 1, 2011

      – Ditto for Anwar al-Awlaki on September 30, 2011

      – Ditto for Abu Yahya al-Libi on June 5, 2012

      August 1, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
  19. nullhogarth

    How dare a mere bishop second-guess the words of the Holy Father? What a heinous thing to have done.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:41 am |
  20. Johnny Triumph

    Amusing to me that Man, not God, leads the Catholic church. They pledge that God is the only only one who can judge yet Man is the one making the policy decisions that guide the church. God is consistent, this paradox is inconsistent and would cause God to cease to exist; essentially forcing God to bow to the decisions of Man. None of this makes any sense at all and shows that the Catholic church is misguided.

    August 1, 2013 at 11:40 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.