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Riding the 'white train' in search of a miracle
The journey gives disabled pilgrims a rare opportunity to take a religious vacation.
August 14th, 2013
09:12 AM ET

Riding the 'white train' in search of a miracle

Photographers Jean-Marc Caimi and Valentina Piccinni rode with 600 pilgrims and volunteers as they took the “white train” from Reggio Calabria in southern Italy to the French town of Lourdes. Disabled believers make the journey annually in hopes of a miracle.

Read the story and see their images at CNN Photos

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Faith & Health • Health care • Italy

soundoff (944 Responses)
  1. EX catholic

    IDOLATRY is not religion, IDOLATRY is a Very serious SIN. Idols are blind, deaf, mute and cannot walk by themselves. That is why they have to be carry here and there by the Idolaters who BTW are themselves as blind as the Idols they worship.

    August 17, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • EX catholic

      Of course they have to go to the blind, deaf, mute and rigid idol. Because the Idol does not and cannot co.me to them. Because a piece of metal, stone or wood cannot walk.

      August 17, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • Salero21

      Idolaters and atheists are just about the same.

      August 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
      • Quest ion

        How are they the same?

        How can that be?

        How is it?

        August 17, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
  2. mzh

    I appreciate for your comments on my postings... I am not here to convince anyone and I know that people are having different understanding and opinions... and this is a blessings to the mankind... if God wanted to create one nation who would believe in one God, He could have... It is He who created different ethnic, language, cultures and so on so that one can interact with each other... and at the same time He sent guide with guidance time to time so that people will be guided in the right path... but also He lets us decide whether to accept or reject...

    When prophet Muhammad (pbuh) forced to leave his birth place by the idol worshippers in Mecca and he migrated to Medina where he found Jew and others lives there... he did not ask to divide the land rather he confirmed the social security for every single citizen and let them chose... which eventually all ended up by accepting it...

    He sent Muslim who were being tortured and killed by Meccans to the state Abyssinia (current Ethiopia) where there was a Christian King (Negus) who was the most just and he invited those Muslims to live with peace as long as they want... when he was being recited the chapter Marry (19) and Alee Imran (3) and he could not stop his tears and he says what Quran talks about my Jesus is the truth...

    Peace be upon all of you... 🙂

    August 17, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Steve

      " I am not here to convince anyone and I know that people are having different understanding and opinions."

      -judging from the sheer volume of your posts, you are a bald-faced liar.

      August 17, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
      • Sara

        lol...I was just about to point out the same thing.l

        August 17, 2013 at 10:09 pm |
  3. Tony

    mzh's claims re embryology in the Quran have actually been completely debunked. See here, for one of many resources debunking the stories that he is trying to foist on us about "science" in his religion of violence:

    http://skeptic-mind.blogspot.ca/2011/07/embryology-miracle-in-quran-destroyed.html

    August 17, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • mzh

      Dear Tony,

      When did we come to know the detail about the embryology to be able to see the human stages inside the womb of a mother? be honest please...

      August 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
      • Tony

        Fully answered in my link. Read it and learn.I won't respond to your copied and pasted spew in like manner.

        August 17, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
  4. Ed

    So you don't understand the language but you believe in the text hook line and sinker regardless. Wow.

    August 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • mzh

      Dear Ed,

      Less than 15 % of Muslim population are Arabs and among them most of them uses their own dialogue... it is not required to be expert in Arabic language to be a good Muslim... but to enjoy the sweetness of the Quran, there is no second language except the language it has been raveled...

      Peace...

      August 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
      • Ed

        Way to make my point, mzh. And how "sweet" do you find killing infidels to be?

        Don't you dare deny that instructions to do that, and other murderous acts, are in your violent mythbook, because they are there in many places that are well documented.

        August 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Ed,

          You need to know that the Quran was not written in one sitting and at a time… you need to understand that the entire quran was revealed in 23 years… and during these 23 years Muslims (whoever accepted by his choice) were tortured and tortured to death and forced to be engaged to battle with Meccans who eventually accepted by repenting their prior actions…

          Now, the verses that you are referring to were revealed to fight back… they did not want to fight until these verses revealed to them to fight back… and these verses were applied at that time… there are verses abrogated with new verses and they do not apply anymore but unfortunately some people by not knowing follow them…

          It is very unfortunate that these verses are being taught or showed or proved by some Muslims action INCORRECTLY...

          Let me ask you this… don’t you think if those verses will conflict with the verses below and there are many more?

          16:125 – Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.

          5:32 – “If anyone kills a soul, it would be as if he has killed all of mankind: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he has saved all of humanity.”

          Anyway, I am not here to convince you but just to share with you and that’s all… I am asking you to accept Islam as your religion… its all your choice that you make dear friends…

          So lets just live with peace by respecting each other… you do your religion and I do mine… you share yours and I share mine… isn’t it simple… why do we have to hate each other… aren’t we all human having same flesh and blood and limbs? The only thing is different between human is ‘the thinking’… I also believe that human change… may be not today but tomorrow who knows…

          If a father has 2 sons and 1 democrat and the other is republican… to father both are his child at the end of the day…

          So lets not be hateful dear friends or I like to say brothers and sisters in mankind… 

          Peace...

          August 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
        • mzh

          and the fight or killing people that you are referring to – I think it has nothing to do with Islam... since these folks are Muslim and got engaged with fight and now the blame goes to the entire community or the teaching of Islam... these fights are either to spread the corruptions or to self defense... please don't mix 2 things up....

          the guy George who killed the young man and he got not guilty by proving himself as self defense... so should we point to the entire Christianity that all Christians are killer as he is also a Christian background? NO...

          the Syrian president killing his own people – aren't they both Muslims? the Lebanese guy killed his own people and many more examples... they are not killing non muslims but they are killing themselves who are also muslims... isn't it?

          I hope people will stop blaming Islam as violence religion rather they will realize the truth... and I also believe if I am being responsible to spread any types of violence to the earth whether to muslim or non muslims, I will not be escaped on that day... every one of us will be held accountable on that day... and God never does injustice to any of His creation...

          I am so hurt... but I understand totally... so peace...

          August 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
        • Ed

          Since "doing your religion" demands that you murder, no, that is not acceptable. Better that you get past your pathetic bronze age mythbook altogether and learn some modern justice concepts. And some science too.

          August 17, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
      • Ed

        and "raveled" is rather a good term for your Quran yarn, whether you meant it to be or not.

        August 17, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
        • mzh

          Oops... typo 🙂

          August 17, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
      • Sara

        Well, it sucks in English. Is it maybe better in French?

        August 17, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
  5. Gary

    So, mzh, what does the Quran have to say about how to calculate the reliability of quantum entanglement, over say a distance of 3 light years?
    Thought so.

    Your claims about the Quran explaining quantum theory are utterly without merit. Not only that, many of the other common claims about the Quran and science are simply farcical.

    August 17, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • mzh

      Dear Gary:

      Quantum Theory has perhaps been discovered not too long ago... it this theory had been given to the people during the time of the Quran was being revealed, they would perhaps not know this details... the details that we have in our time... I can't imagine what would come after us... but the base is there in the quran as much as need to go forward and things will be given to mankind over the time as per needed by who created the universe... and so on...

      If you just think of the human being creation and the way it has been mentioned in it, is amazing... I do not think they knew the three layers of a mothers womb where a child is being grown...

      39:6 – He created you (all) from a single person (Adam); then made from him his wife [Hawwa' (Eve)]. And He has sent down for you of cattle eight pairs (of the sheep, two, male and female; of the goats, two, male and female; of the oxen, two, male and female; and of the camels, two, male and female). He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness, such is Allah your Lord. His is the kingdom, La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). How then are you turned away?

      In the above verse:

      "creation after creation" –
      means everyone of you is originally a Nutfah (a semen-drop 22:5), then he becomes an `Alaqah (clinging substance 96:2), then he becomes a Mudghah (the embryonic lump 23:14 – this verse actually giving all stages meaning mentioned Nutfah then 'Alaqah and then Madghah.... subhanallah glory be to Allah The Almighty), then he is created and becomes flesh and bones and nerves and veins, and the Ruh (soul) is breathed into him, and he becomes another type of creation.

      "three veils of darknesses" –
      means in the darkness of the womb, the darkness of the placenta which blankets and protects the child, and the darkness of the belly.

      You know... as much as I learn about Quran, it makes me more submissive to The Lord Almighty with pure monotheistic...

      I hope it will be helpful dear Gary...

      Peace be upon you....

      August 17, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
      • Reality

        To all Muslims especially mzh:

        From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi----–

        The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

        ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

        Are you ready?

        Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

        The First Five of the 77 Branches:

        "1. Belief in Allah"

        aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.

        "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

        Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

        "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

        A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

        "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

        Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

        Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

        Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

        "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
        be upon him) alone."

        Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

        Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

        Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

        Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

        August 17, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Gary

      That's utterly bogus, mzh. Save your salutations and learn some modern science already.You'll find none of that in your silly myths.

      August 17, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
      • mzh

        I agree with you on that all the modern science that have been discovered as of today are not there in the Quran and I have no doubt about it... and I appreciate for it to those who tries to achieve things to serve the mankind by discovering new things with the will of The Almighty... as Jesus healed people without any medicine but by the will of The Almighty...

        What I was saying is that the people during the time of the revelation of the Quran was literally illiterate... and this much information was given to them and for example the stages of embryo is discovered not too long ago whereas its there in the Quran since 14+ hundred years ago...

        Peace...

        August 17, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
        • Tony

          mzh's claims re embryology in the Quran have actually been completely debunked. See here, for one of many resources debunking the stories that he is trying to foist on us about "science" in his religion of violence:

          http://skeptic-mind.blogspot.ca/2011/07/embryology-miracle-in-quran-destroyed.html

          August 17, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Elaine

      Indeed, Gary. As usual, mzh's Quran mumbo jumbo is so vague and circular that you could read anything into it. It's mainly embellished babble ad nauseum from very ignorant folk. It's striking that Allah hasn't produced anything modern, especially since cameras were invented.

      The detail in any first year medical text simply blows away the absurd "science" in the Quran on any medical topic.

      August 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
  6. mzh

    I encourage you to watch this google video to know what science has discovered and how it is mentioned in the quran which was revealed 14+ hundreds years... you may learn something new...

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdd0TNMCuA&w=640&h=360]

    Peace!!!

    August 17, 2013 at 12:53 am |
    • scar

      "...will remain the sole guide for humanity. The matchless style of the Quran, and the superior wisdom in it are definite evidence that it IS the word of God....."

      Wow, haven't heard this anywhere before.... as for the Quran scientific 'truths' – with enough doubletalk and spin you can make Sally,Dick and Jane seem to be a cutting edge quantum physics journal.

      August 17, 2013 at 2:27 am |
      • Sara

        Maybe it's a translation issue, but the style of the Quran in English is "boring and repeti tive." I can't see learning a new language just to see if I get a style change on a book.

        August 17, 2013 at 9:45 am |
        • mzh

          You are correct... when you interpreted in different language, it loses the sweetness of the original language...

          August 17, 2013 at 10:08 am |
        • mzh

          Dear Sara:

          There is one more thing I like to say about the Quran... please know that this is not a noble that you would find the stories of previous generations in order... the verses are scattered all over the book... for example the story of Jesus is mentioned almost all over the Quran and so the story of children of Israel and Moses... the name of Moses mentioned more than hundred times and the name of Jesus mentioned almost hundred times but the name of Muhammad mentioned only once or twice by name but all the verses are revealed to him and he (pbuh) delivered to the people at that time and now it applies to whoever believes in it... and the only story is mentioned in one chapter is the story of Joseph (pbuh) and starts with his father Jacob and ends Joseph (pbuh) being the head of the state of Egypt with his 12 brothers and rest of the family and the interesting thing about Egypt or Children of Israel is they were Muslim and the entire country Egypt and it was there for few hundred years till the children of Israel started transgression with their Lord and then they become under the tyrant of pheroh until Moses took them out of the Egypt...

          There are some other stories of previous generation are mentioned different places of the Quran...

          So instead of reading it as you are reading a Noble, please think that these verses were revealed based on the need of the people at that time...

          here is beautiful series in youtube and it started from 6 years prior to the first revealation and it goes all the way till the second caliph Omar Ibn Abdel Khattaab... you will get a little idea about how the environment was at that time and what the reaction of the people of Mecca and around them and how did the message got accepted by the people and then later it spreaded till the Romans who were defeated at that time... and many more...

          [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMu_654ASDk&w=640&h=360]

          There are 30 episode... trust me you will like it if you are interested in history... most of this episodes are verified by different scholars and authentic...

          Peace...

          August 17, 2013 at 10:37 am |
        • Sara

          Thank you mzh, but I am. familiar enough with both the Quran and the history of the period to know that I am not interested in the religion personally and to feel it is not advantageous for society as a whole. I agree the style may be more pleasant in the original, but as noted I'm not learning Arabic just to appreciate style in one piece of literature which I have already found lacking in content.

          August 17, 2013 at 11:04 am |
        • mzh

          Good to know... I myself is not Arab as well... I struggle to learn Arabic so that I understand some of it... but will get there inshallah soon but it will take time...

          Thanks very much for being so nice Sara... 🙂

          August 17, 2013 at 11:27 am |
        • Ed

          So you don't understand the language but you believe in the text hook line and sinker regardless. Wow.

          August 17, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
      • mzh

        This is my intention to let the world know about the beauty of Quran...

        You know scar, sometimes I think American people are so nice in terms of anything... there are all the characteristics exists in Americans which should be in Muslim culture too but unfortunately there are muslim shows themselves in worse condition to the world...

        So I thought I would try my best to change as many people as possible that Islam is not the way they think or see in media... but it is The Truth... I would not say that this is better than other but I would say that it is THE TRUTH and it has no human intervention as quran itself tells Muhammad (pbuh) that not to worry about preserving it but it will be preserved by the one whose words are these...

        by the way, you sounds very intelligent... mashaallah (what a great wish of Allah that you have been blessed with this knowledge) and I thank Him (Alhamdoulillah)...

        Peace...

        August 17, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
        • Elaine

          mzh, please stop giving your vicious, murderous deity of your myths credit for merits of other people. It is dishonest and unfair to those people.

          August 17, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Buzz

      As others have noted, both the Quran and the standard Islamic prayers use a lot of repetition. The praying also requires homogeneous, repetitive actions by a group. This works to dull the senses even further of the people gullible enough to fall for the religion to begin with, and make them even more compliant and malleable to the leaders. Common technique with other religions, but in Islam with its other proclivities to violence and murder and its glorification of "martyrs" who do its horrific deeds to nonbelievers, it's particularly sinister, and we know how awful the results can be.

      Now here you can see that Islam has mzh totally sucked in, to the point of trying to pull others into the downward spiral of his cult. Brake and avoid.

      August 17, 2013 at 11:34 am |
  7. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things

    August 16, 2013 at 9:06 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      actions cause change; prayer wastes valuable time.

      August 16, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
      • Mark from Middle River

        Yeah, all of us spending our Friday nights blogging isn't a waste of time.

        August 16, 2013 at 10:16 pm |
    • tony

      Lying is violation of the 9th commandment.

      August 16, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
      • mzh

        Yes it does...

        2:186 – And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.

        Peace!!!

        August 17, 2013 at 12:57 am |
    • Observer

      Speaking of unhealthy for children, the Bible says you should beat your children with rods.

      August 16, 2013 at 10:16 pm |
      • Mark from Middle River

        ...as soon as ye are without sin. 🙂

        August 16, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
        • Observer

          Mark from Middle River,

          Like much of the violence commanded by the Bible, this is very barbaric.

          August 16, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
        • Mark from Middle River

          Those were violent times. This also brings into question of corporal punishment which today is still practiced by not only Christians but those outside of the faith as well.

          Still my comment stands for us who are Christians when it comes to application of the old laws. You might want to take up your issue with or brothers and sisters who are Jewish. We Christians, unless there is one of us with out sin.... we were told it was pretty much frowned upon.

          August 16, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
        • Observer

          Mark from Middle River,

          It does seem that Christians like to put out the impression that God saved his stupidest commands for his "chosen people" in the Old Testament Unfortunately, this line of reasoning also seems to indicate Christians should have understanding if any of God's chosen people go around killing any Christians who work on the sabbath, etc. 🙂

          August 16, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "You might want to take up your issue with or brothers and sisters who are Jewish."

          You do realize Jesus was a Jew. And that the violent god of the OT is the same god in the NT.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
        • Mark from Middle River

          You do realize Jesus was a Jew.

          Yep he was a Jew but can you understand that he instructed those who followed him, who can carry out Jewish law.

          Give you a hint ... It ain't us Christians. Question though. We look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, any group that seemed to have an issue with the Jewish people.... I always wondered if it is the position of some Atheist that God should have let the Jews get wiped out. For example. the destruction of the Parroahs army as they went for a swim in the Red Sea.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
        • Observer

          Mark from Middle River

          "We look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah". Unlike many Christians who like to pretend this had to do with gays, Sodom was destroyed because the people were greedy and didn't share.

          Could the residents of Sodom have been the first Republicans?

          August 16, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
        • Colin

          Mark, you said, "II always wondered if it is the position of some Atheist that God should have let the Jews get wiped out."

          Do you not get it? We atheists don't believe in God. How could any atheist have a desire for action by something that does not exist? Do you also wonder whether some atheist doesn't think that Little Red Riding Hood was a slu.t?

          August 16, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
        • Mark from Middle River

          Unlike many Christians who like to pretend this had to do with gays, Sodom was destroyed because the people were greedy and didn't share.

          My thoughts on it was that Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed because they were Gay, but because of the desire to ra'pe the Angels which were in the city.

          Could the residents of Sodom have been the first Republicans?</em?

          If that is true, why are you, me and other Americans not allowed to be on the same health care plan as Obama and his family? Why can they not share the benefits of not having to be on Obama care?

          Also, a few weeks ago when Obama was in Africa....for a photo op in case Mandela died.... GW Bush was in Africa building hospitals and community centers.

          Do you not get it? We atheists don't believe in God.

          Colin, we have tangled before so we both know that I know that Atheist believe there is no God but the question always continues to come up. It is when Atheist give examples of the negative actions of God recorded in the OT and ask us Christians how we feel about it. My question stands to wonder if Atheist believed that it was right in the context of protecting the Jews of Israel?

          Sorta, should we, in current time, feel guilty of the destruction of Germany and Ja'pan at the end of WW2, when it preserved our way of life as part of the Allies?

          August 16, 2013 at 11:30 pm |
        • Observer

          Mark from Middle River,

          It's interesting that you praised Bush for one of his relatively rare appearances since retiring. Unlike Clinton, Gore, Jimmy Carter, etc. he hasn't strongly particpated in humanitarian efforts.

          We are all enjoying the huge improvement in the economy since Bush left. The stock market has almost doubled, saving the retirement benefits of millions of Americans who were watching their lifetime savings disappear under Bush. We are also adding tens of thousands of jobs each month after Bush left us losing well over a half million jobs each month. And we haven't started any $2,000,000,000,000 wars for false reasons like Bush and the Republicans did.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "I always wondered if it is the position of some Atheist that God should have let the Jews get wiped out. For example. the destruction of the Parroahs army as they went for a swim in the Red Sea."

          And your god had a lot to do with Pharaohs mindset and his actions.

          " But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

          So maybe if your god doesn't harden the hart of Pharaoh he makes a different decision and willing lets the Jews go. And the first born needent have been killed, by your god. More violence from your god of peace.

          Not that that story is in any way true... .

          August 16, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
        • Mark from Middle River

          It's interesting that you praised Bush for one of his relatively rare appearances since retiring.

          Well, like some on the Left have praised is how GW Bush is not like those other media hounds and continue to speak out against serving presidents. But, always remember that it was Obama who called GW Bush and his cousin Cheney concerning Afghanistan. It was also the GW Bush administration who Obama thanked in the first few minutes of his speech when Bin Laden was killed. Clinton can't even get himself out of Harlem NYC. Gore is still a "do as I say not as I do" person,.with his ranch having a larger carbon foot print as GW Bush's.

          Carter builds small houses in the safety of Georgia. GW Bush went to Africa.... a place that Africans and African Americans had to shame him to finally go to.

          We are all enjoying the huge improvement in the economy since Bush left. We are? gas is higher, the governments (local and federal) are finding new and more under handed ways to raise our taxes. NASA gone..... Detroit Gone.... Money we put into Green companies Gone..... But, Gitmo is still open and we still, after eight years, have troops in most of the places we did under GW Bush.

          Heck, if I am right, I think CNN reported that Obama just appointed another person who worked under GW Bush.

          We are also adding tens of thousands of jobs each month

          Yeah, part time and low pay jobs.

          Observer, we might disagree on Faith and Religion but please wake up if you think that there is a difference between the Democrats and Republicans.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:57 pm |
        • Observer

          Mark,

          "please wake up if you think that there is a difference between the Democrats and Republicans."

          You didn't really address or appreciate any of the major improvements in our ecomony. You did mention gas prices. The highest gas prices ever: under George W. Bush.

          Apparently you don't see any difference in losing well over a half million jobs each month and adding jobs even if low paying. Would you feel so indifferent if the stock market was still tanklng like under Bush?

          If your retirement saving were invested in stock-based funds, you'd see a huge difference. Same for other stock market investments.

          No difference in parties? NO $2,000,000,000,000 war with 4,000 dead and all for false reasons if it was left to Democrats. Both parties have big problems, but you need to start paying attention.

          August 17, 2013 at 12:11 am |
        • Mark from Middle River

          Exodus 9:12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

          Take what had happened to the Pharaoh before that passage. The testimony of the power of God over the Pharaoh's people sorta .... pis'sed him off. My view is that Pharaoh, who was viewed as a God, could not overcome the power of the God of Moses. The Lord (God) could not convince Pharaoh to bend and with each punishment to let the Jews go Pharaoh's heart had to become hardened to not hear the agony not only of the Jews but of his own people.

          And the first born needent have been killed, by your god. More violence from your god of peace.

          It comes down to again, the torment of the Jews under Pharaoh verses a act that finally convinced Pharaoh to let them go.

          Also, to draw you back to Sodom and Gomorrah, the first borne were taken... we see later text to show that God could have done much much worst. It always comes down to balance what was happening to the Jewish people at that time.

          Ok, guys. I gotta go for a bit. Will check back in later.

          Much respect. L'chaim.

          August 17, 2013 at 12:18 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          **It comes down to again, the torment of the Jews under Pharaoh verses a act that finally convinced Pharaoh to let them go.

          Also, to draw you back to Sodom and Gomorrah, the first borne were taken... we see later text to show that God could have done much much worst. It always comes down to balance what was happening to the Jewish people at that time.**

          But that is not what the Bible says is it? What it says is that god hardened his heart. In other words god helped convince him to keep the Jews. So much for free will. So god could have abused his free will to get him to release the Jews and avoid the following blood shed. Oh and since "god could have done much worse" that somehow excuses his actions?

          August 17, 2013 at 12:29 am |
      • mzh

        Quran teaches how to raise a children by giving an example of a wise man raised his son:

        31:12 – And We had certainly given Luqman wisdom [and said], "Be grateful to Allah ." And whoever is grateful is grateful for [the benefit of] himself. And whoever denies [His favor] – then indeed, Allah is Free of need and Praiseworthy.

        31:13 – And [mention, O Muhammad], when Luqman said to his son while he was instructing him, "O my son, do not associate [anything] with Allah . Indeed, association [with him] is great injustice."

        31:14 – And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

        31:15 – But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance]. Then to Me will be your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do.

        The teaching of Islam is even if the parents are not Muslim, obey them as long as they do ask you to associate a partner with The Almighty... but there is no violence or using rod to beat or so on...

        Peace!!!

        August 17, 2013 at 1:04 am |
        • mzh

          My apologies...

          Please read the last paragraph as below... I missed 'NO' and the meaning changes than what I meant...

          The teaching of Islam is even if the parents are not Muslim, obey them as long as they do NOT ask you to associate a partner with The Almighty... but there is no violence or using rod to beat or so on...

          August 17, 2013 at 1:15 am |
    • Colin

      Battyfink is always a waste of time.

      August 17, 2013 at 10:54 am |
  8. Extra Medium

    Why wasting money, fuel to Lourdes. If you really believe in God, he will heal you right in your home

    August 16, 2013 at 9:04 pm |
  9. scallywag

    Solomom had three hundred wives and seven hundred porcupines.

    August 16, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
    • Doug

      Sounds painful. And she was a busy "mom", that Solomom.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
      • scallywag

        The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the Bible, Guinessis, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their children, Cain, asked, "Am I my brother's son?"

        August 16, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
        • mzh

          Please read the quran for the creation of Adam and Eve and rest of the mankind...

          Here are the ways of the human creation as it is mentioned in the quran:
          1. The first human (Adam) created out of clay
          2. Eve created from him (Adam)
          3. From them (Adam and Eve) created the off spring of rest of the mankind except one (Jesus)
          4. Jesus son of Marry created only from a mother and no father and its a sign for mankind that Allah creates what He wishes...

          I would like you to research the rest...

          Peace!!!

          August 16, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          Scalliwag is just playing jokes with the language. There's a literary term for it, but I can't remember it at the moment.

          August 16, 2013 at 8:08 pm |
        • Kate

          While you are reading the Quran like mzh keeps telling us you should, don't forget to read the many sections in which "loving" Allah, mzh's mythical ass hole in the sky, threatens to burn you, and where you are instructed to kill "infidels" who aren't of your specific cult. And then you'll wonder even less why certain Middle East countries have so much internal strife.

          August 16, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Kate:

          To tell you and those who do not believe in Allah to believe in Him and do not associate any partner with Him… here are few of the verses:

          59:21 – If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought.

          59:22 – He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

          59:23 – He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

          59:24 – He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

          Peace be upon you...

          August 16, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
        • Kate

          Now lets look at some other violence demanded of mzh in his mythbook:

          It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67

          Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191

          Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39

          Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
          (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

          ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43

          But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89

          O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54

          Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme – 8:39

          O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65

          Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3

          When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

          Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

          mzh, you are a lying, deceptive con artist. Be gone!

          August 16, 2013 at 9:41 pm |
  10. mzh

    16:125 – Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.

    Invite people not with violance but with love and let them know about the beauty of being submitted to The Almighty...

    Peace!!!

    August 16, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • scallywag

      Solomom had three hundred wives and seven hundred porcupines.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:23 pm |
      • mzh

        I wouldn't worry about him...

        August 16, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
      • Athy

        That must have been a prickly situation, eh?

        August 16, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
    • scallywag

      'The Jews.' God's chosen people: Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:24 pm |
      • mzh

        'The Jews.' God's chosen people – Jews are still using this for the sake of getting some sympathy from others... they were chosen during the time Moses and they were chosen among the people of Egypt at that time and it does not apply after that...

        August 16, 2013 at 8:02 pm |
        • Kate

          And what does your mythbook the Quran say your Allah ass hole in the sky wants you to do to "infidels" again?

          August 16, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Kate:

          To tell you and those who do not believe in Allah to believe in Him and do not associate any partner with Him… here are few of the verses:

          59:21 – If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought.

          59:22 – He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

          59:23 – He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

          59:24 – He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

          Peace be upon you...

          August 16, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
        • Kate

          Some instructions from mzh's sky fairy in his mythbook:

          It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67

          Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191

          Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39

          Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
          (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

          ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43

          But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89

          O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54

          Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme – 8:39

          O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65

          Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3

          When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

          Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

          mzh, you are a lying, deceptive con artist. Be gone!

          August 16, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • Kate

      Because if you don't, Allah's gonna put you in his toaster and burn you eternally. Loving fellow that he is...

      Still trying to sell us on your god fraud mzh? You fail. We've seen through it and your religion is obviously a fairy tale.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
      • mzh

        Peace be upon you Kate... 🙂

        August 16, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
        • Kate

          Nice, try, mzh. You claim peace but we know better. You are a liar and a cheat, and you have already shown yourself to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. We know well what your mythbook says you should do to "infidels", as well as how it says your Allah jerk in the sky wants to burn us.

          August 16, 2013 at 8:31 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Kate:

          To tell you and those who do not believe in Allah to believe in Him and do not associate any partner with Him… here are few of the verses:

          59:21 – If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought.

          59:22 – He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

          59:23 – He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

          59:24 – He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

          Peace be upon you...

          August 16, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
        • Kate

          mzh, you are quite the con artist. Now let's look at what your guide to violence Quran really says you should do:

          It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67

          Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191

          Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39

          Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
          (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

          ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43

          But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89

          O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54

          Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme – 8:39

          O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65

          Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3

          When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

          Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

          mzh, you are a lying, deceptive con artist. Be gone!

          August 16, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • scallywag

      I'll take science over judeo-christo religion anyday.
      Science flies rockets to the moon.
      Religion flies airplanes into buildings.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
      • mzh

        Science did not come out of nowhere... science is one of the blessings to the mankind from The Creator...

        Let me ask you something if I may, do you think science care create a sperm or a ovum which are the substances of you, me and rest of the mankind?

        22:73 – O mankind, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued.

        22:74 – They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

        1:2 – All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
        1:3 – The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful
        30:20 – And of His signs is that He created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing [throughout the earth].
        30:21 – And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

        Can science separate the juice that a fly just sucked out of its body?

        Peace be upon all of you!!!

        August 16, 2013 at 7:55 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Science has proven your precious creation story to be cr@p. So apparently your god is messing with you with his gift of science.

          August 16, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
        • Kate

          mzh, how many infidels have you killed today, as your evil mythbook says you must? And how long will your Allah burn you if you disobey him?

          August 16, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Kate:

          “If anyone kills a soul, it would be as if he has killed all of mankind: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he has saved all of humanity.” – Quran 5:3

          August 16, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
        • Kate

          mzh, now let's look at just a few of the many sections of your mythbook, re what your religion of hatred and violence demands:

          It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67

          Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191

          Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39

          Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
          (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

          ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43

          But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89

          O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54

          Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme – 8:39

          O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65

          Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3

          When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

          Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

          mzh, you are a lying, deceptive con artist. Be gone!

          August 16, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Blessed are the Cheesemakers:

          How old the science is? how could we say that where the birth of science is not too long ago and these words have been revealed to mankind 14+ hundreds of years ago and also at that time there was no science or technology.. this is actually one of the proves that the quran is not word of any human but its entirely from The Almighty... but its up to us whether to accept it or to reject it... if we accept nothing will change and if we reject nothing will happen as all will be standing in front of The Almighty on that day and every one will be compensated as per their earning in this life...

          Peace!!!

          August 17, 2013 at 12:49 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          That is quite possibly the worst drivel I have read. Awful. Dishonest.

          August 17, 2013 at 1:09 am |
        • A Frayed Knot

          mzh,

          Did you ever hear about Pythagoras? Archimedes? Hippocrates?

          Here's just a sampling of ancient Greek scientists on the following lists - who lived and studied hundreds and hundreds of years before your "angel in a cave" stuff:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_scientists

          There were scientists in many early cultures long, long before your book was written:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_early_cultures

          That "science" in the Quran was generally old news, even at the time. Get over your false awe.

          (sorry to fall back on Wikipedia, but it's something even you can read and understand - and there are numerous links and references for further study)

          August 17, 2013 at 2:05 am |
  11. Bootyfunk

    too bad there's no 'Amputee Train'. god never heals amputees. strange... he supposedly heals the blind and lame, but those are ailments that can be faked... you can't fake missing an arm or not having eyes. so god only heals injuries that can be faked. do the math.

    August 16, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
    • scallywag

      'The Jews.' God's chosen people: Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
  12. Reverend Charlatan

    I have a miraculous lawn sprinkler here in my backyard in the Cayman Islands. The waters at Lourdes are nothing compared my magic water. For a limited time, you can get five minutes under the magic sprinkler for a mere $1000 (plus airfare and lodging). I can guarantee miraculous cures for whatever ails you. BUT, if you call within the next ten minutes, you get TEN whole minutes being sprayed with the amazing magic water. For reservations, call 1-900-555-CURE. Once your reservations are confirmed, send cash only, to
    Reverend Charlatan
    PO Box 69
    George Town, Cayman Islands

    August 16, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Miracle water

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znJh0FZ-gdo&w=640&h=360]

      August 16, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Peter Popoff is just providing 'hope' to those who are having a tough time. If any of you have a problem with what he is doing just keep silent because to disagree with his business is just spreading hate...and hate destroys perception.

        August 16, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
        • Miracle bread

          You need some miracle manna with your cheese.

          August 16, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
        • hharri

          Sam Stone likewise. She has what it takes. She's knock knock knocking on heaven's door. She has worked very hard to rid herself of her demons. Most likely she's closer to her Lord than all the others who claim to despise their savior. Sam, don't give up now. Hang in there. You are proof how far god can bring a person. You are a role model for your friends. Proud of you

          August 16, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
        • scallywag

          'The Jews.' God's chosen people: Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:26 pm |
        • Athy

          Can you also make beer without any ingredients?

          August 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
        • scallywag

          Cheesus Christ, our Grate Lord.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:33 pm |
        • scallywag

          The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the Bible, 'Guinessis,' Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their children, Cain, asked, "Am I my brother's son?"

          August 16, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
        • scallywag

          'Can you make beer without ingrediants?'
          Okay ' ...the first book of the Bible, 'Guinessis,' .. (heh heh, .. now, you gotta admit, that Was clever, eh')

          August 16, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
        • Athy

          I am your straight man, man.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:53 pm |
    • Miracle bread

      Let's eat...

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4_CYVGN15E&w=640&h=360]

      August 16, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
      • scallywag

        Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

        August 16, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
      • .

        too funny.

        August 17, 2013 at 4:57 am |
  13. mzh

    Which one of these laws mentioned in the Quran are not beneficial for the mankind:

    4:29 – O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful.

    4:30 – And whoever does that in aggression and injustice – then We will drive him into a Fire. And that, for Allah , is [always] easy.

    4:31 – If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].

    4:36 – Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful.

    The Quran also commands to be just when it comes to justice even if it is against yourself or your loved ones...

    Peace to all...

    August 16, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The 4th one is awful. No one should be required to worship anyone or anything. Any god that would want to be worshipped couldn't be considered a moral being.

      August 16, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
      • mzh

        You worship it is not because of He want you to worship but you worship it is because of HE is worthy of worship as His bounties are countless and none can deny the bounties or the favour that each and every one of us are having in every single breathe we take…

        But I do understand the point of view you are talking about from…

        And this is what makes Islam is different than any other religions the pure monotheistic… there are religions that they call monotheistic but actually they are not if one pay attention or know what they are saying…

        And in only this case, a Muslim is responsible to share the faith with others and let the person decide and not to force anyone…

        Peace!!!

        August 16, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          ****You worship it is not because of He want you to worship but you worship it is because of HE is worthy of worship as His bounties are countless and none can deny the bounties or the favour that each and every one of us are having in every single breathe we take…***

          But I don't have the opinion any god is worthy of worship....espescially any god of Abraham. Does that mean I deserve some eternal punishment?

          August 16, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Blessed are the Cheesemakers:

          I wouldn't comment on that... as I am not given the authority... it is between you and The One Who Created you...

          By the way, there is no different God or Gods... there is only ONE and we human makes it different... it also proves that HE is so mercyful and being so patient on us...

          Peace be upon you...

          August 16, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
        • Sara

          mzh, Do you think anyone deserves eternal punishment? Because as I remember it that was a pretty big and oftrepeated part of the Quran.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          mzh,

          WHat does the Quran have to say on the subject of eternal punishment?

          I realize you think there is one god, and it is Allah. But that is nothing more than the claim of Islam, and you cannot demonstrate that the god you believe in is any more real than the CHristian god or Zues or Odin.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • Kate

      The second one ain't too pretty either. Punishment by burning? Let's see, modern humans mostly got past that horror 200+ years ago.

      And we allow for rehab in modern justice. Hard to be rehabilitated when you're toast. Allah sounds like quite the jerk, so mzh, please stop your sales jobs on us here. We aren't buying the con job that you're selling.

      August 16, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
      • mzh

        Dear Kate,

        This punishment is not referring to this earthly life’s punishment but its in hereafter… if this punishment was meant to be in this life then no one can survive… which is why you see lets take the example of someone Muslim killing other human being where he is not allowed to take anyone’s life. Also I am not given authority to point finger and say this human or that person, NO, I should be worried about myself first in order to be good by following these laws that I have mentioned along with others… like Jesus (pbuh) said at the end of the following verses:

        5:116 – And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

        5:117 – I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

        5:118 – If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

        Peace!!!

        August 16, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
        • JimK57

          Mzh, I just want to say I enjoy reading your posts and I admire how no matter how many times you are insulted you always respond with kindness. I think alot of people here could learn from your example.

          August 16, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
        • mzh

          One more point:
          Also I would like to mention here that there were generations before us (meaning prior to Muhammad and Jesus) were punished in this earth due to their transgressions, for example the people of Lot – history says that the entire town was flipped up side down due to their transgressions. The people of Noah they were being warned for 950+ years but they did not listened to their prophet, the example of pherroh and many more examples… who can do it? Only the one who created… And also its not that HE loves to do that to human but its human makes the choices by disobeying the messengers were sent to them.

          He created human as very especial being, actually human are better than the angels because angels have no ability to disobey the order of their Creator but human being are given this ability to disobey the order of our Creator and despite of having this ability when someone submits himself to the Creator, this makes the human better than the angels… as it is mentioned in following verse:

          95:4 – We have certainly created man in the best of stature;

          Peace!!!

          August 16, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
        • mzh

          He created the human and commanded the entire creation to prostrate upon the human but very few of us do appreciate it.

          August 16, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear Jim,

          I appreciate your comments. All I would say as I learned from Quran when some praise you say “Praise to Allah, who has guided me to this; and I would never have been guided if Allah had not guided me”

          People do not know about the meaning or real Islam… all they know what they see in the media but the real stuff is not being shown to them… I feel so much responsible that I should as best as I can with the help of The Creator of the heavens and earth and anything between them…

          Again thanks a lot… God bless you and guide us all to be a good person to each other… I wish others see things the way I see it...

          Peace!!!

          August 16, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
        • mzh

          Dear JimK57:

          Just thought to mention the verses that I was referring to about appreciation:

          7:42 – And those who believed and did righteous deeds – We burden no soul except [within] its capacity. Those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.

          7:43 – And We will have removed whatever is within their breasts of resentment, [while] flowing beneath them are rivers. And they will say, "Praise to Allah, who has guided us to this; and we would never have been guided if Allah had not guided us. Certainly the messengers of our Lord had come with the truth. "And they will be called, "This is Paradise, which you have been made to inherit for what you used to do."

          Peace be upon you...

          August 16, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
        • Kate

          mzh, that's quite the slick con job you are trying to pull off, but we've caught you. We know what the Quran says, and it's not a bed of roses like you claim. By any reasonable standards, your god as presented in the Quran is a murderous abuser of humans. Nice words on top of that won't change that reality, so again, please stop coming here to push your evil religion at us.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Jim, mzh has not been insulted that I have seen. His religious opinions have been questioned and even attacked but that is not the same thing.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
        • Sara

          mzh,

          "He created human as very especial being, actually human are better than the angels because angels have no ability to disobey the order of their Creator but human being are given this ability to disobey the order of our Creator"

          I thought in Islam both humans and jinn have free will, so are they just as good as humans?

          August 16, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
        • JimK57

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers, Then you have not seen the comments I have. Calling someones beliefs "fairytales" is an insult and when said it is meant to degrade someone.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
        • JimK57

          You are going to tell me this is not an insult?!

          "mzh, please stop replying, and stop praying for me. Get off your fat backside, stop trying to sell your god fraud to the world, and get out and do some good instead, like speaking out against Islamic terrorism."

          August 16, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
        • Glow Perm

          JimK57, religion is all fairy tales, all the time. If you believe in fairy tales as an adult, you deserve the occasional tickle.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          @Jim said "Calling someones beliefs "fairytales" is an insult"

          No it is not. Not when someone is presenting "belief" as "fact". Religious belief is part of the marketplace of ideas and as such can be attacked like any other "idea" can. What you, and people like you, want to do is create as special niche for religious beliefs that are beyond reproach. I call BS on that type of faulty reasoning. Religious ideas (beliefs) have to stand or fall on their own merits. You have a problem with this because you know they are not logically able to do that. And therefore you claim "oppression" and "persecution" when one disagrees. Too bad.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
        • JimK57

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers, I must say I am stunned that you cannot see how a deeply religous person would be insulted by someone calling there belifs "fairytales'. I think this just speaks to the loss of empathy as a culture. So just to be clear I see this as a personality flaw and not a trait of all athiest.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Oh Poor Jim,

          Yes I know religious people CONSIDER opposition as insulting. That doesn't make it true. BTW no one has the right to NOT be offended. If you make you beliefs public they are open to criticism.... don't like it than keep them to yourself.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Oh and Jim....believing that snakes talk, virgins have babies, prophets ride flying horses, people walk on water and come back from being dead after 3 days ARE FAIRYTALES. Unless you can objectively demonstrate their truth....and you can't.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:45 pm |
        • mzh

          Sara:

          You are right... I did not want to confuse people with this nation... Bible has no clue what Jinn is... and Bible calls Satan who is from Jinn as fallen angel where angel has no ability to disobey the order of their Creator...

          Thanks very much...

          Salam

          August 17, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
      • Kate

        mzh, doesn't matter when the unfair punishment happens. You agreed that it happens.

        So, look, your god would have to be a total jerk to be threatening to burn anyone, and you've confirmed that's what your book says, so again, enough with your pushy sales jobs here already. Your Allah really seriously would be a total jerk. Get lost, please.

        August 16, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
        • mzh

          Peace be upon you Kate... you will always be in my prayers...

          August 16, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
        • Kate

          mzh, please stop replying, and stop praying for me. Get off your fat backside, stop trying to sell your god fraud to the world, and get out and do some good instead, like speaking out against Islamic terrorism.

          August 16, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
        • JimK57

          Athiests take notice to these comments. The "debate" between kate and mzh is an example of how these things go.
          Believer is being respectful and look what happens.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
        • Sara

          @JimK, I think it's fair to disagree on whether promoting a position that says your debatepartner will burn in eternal hell is "respectful". Remember that each side is not only responsible for the views explicitly stated, but for the views with which they have expressed agreement.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
        • JimK57

          If someone was stating it as fact as he believes it, it is not an insult. If he was not saying "I hope you burn in hell", that is an insult. Do you see the difference?

          August 16, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
        • Sara

          "I hope you burn in hell" is not an insult, but a childish evil wish. An insult is "You deserve to burn in hell." It is the same to say "you deserve to burn in hell" as "I agree with what Bob says on the subject" while handing over Bob's note that says "You deserve to burn in hell."

          August 16, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
        • Wellsprung

          I smell a red herring in JimK57's posts. Or maybe a musty strawman...

          In this marketplace of ideas, I'd be shorting religion right about now.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
        • Real Tom

          I smell something, but it isn't a red herring. Not nearly as fragrant.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
      • Kate

        mzh, doesn't matter when the unfair punishment happens. You agreed that it happens.

        So, look, your god would have to be a total jerk to be threatening to burn anyone, and you've confirmed that's what your book says, so again, enough with your pushy sales jobs here already. Your Allah really seriously would be a total jerk. Get lost, please.

        August 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
      • Tattoos

        Jim, you are dumb as a bag of hair.

        August 16, 2013 at 6:04 pm |
        • TTTPS

          Ignore autocorrect of my moniker. Real Tom here. Not "Tatoo."

          August 16, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
        • Athy

          Welcome back, TomTom. Wow, autocorrect actually did that to your moniker? There must be some way to shut that damn thing off.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
        • Real Tom

          Yes. I am typing on an iPad. I cannot post from home as the mods banned me. Thanks for the welcome.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
        • Real Tom

          Autocorrect is the devil, I tell you.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
        • Daniel Ellsberg

          Real Tom, just use a proxy server. Good list is here: http://hidemyass.com/proxy-list/. Settings are in your browser options. Pick an anonymous proxy close to home.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
        • Real Tom

          I am a bit paranoid of proxy servers. No good reason; just am. And this place is such a huge time-suck that I am better off without it. This is just a drive-by posting.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
        • Athy

          Yeah, good idea. You may want to change your email address as well. It doesn't have to be real, just look real. You know, have the right format.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
        • Real Tom

          Yeah Athy, I tried that. No dice. My ip was banned,apparently.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          @TTTPS,

          nice to see you around.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
    • scallywag

      'The Jews.' God's chosen people: Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:26 pm |
  14. bostontola

    Reading below, it seems that some think it's ok to sell false hope. It provides comfort for the hopeless. I disagree. I think it is morally wrong to sell false hope. I don't really like state lotteries where there is some (albeit minuscule) hope. There is absolutely no hope that a train ride to Lourdes will cure anything. The Church should denounce this and use some of their funds to provide real medical help to these people if they care.

    August 16, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • niknak

      The church will never denounce it because it is a huge revenue stream for them.

      When you boil it down, all religions are just that, false hope.

      August 16, 2013 at 11:41 am |
      • bostontola

        Imagine if someone offered to give people $1B in 20 years. All they had to do is give him 10% of their worth now. That person would be arrested and thrown in jail. Now raise the stakes, you get eternal love instead of $1B, and that is revered as the foundation of our society. Nuts.

        August 16, 2013 at 11:49 am |
        • Sara

          Except that they get more than that out of the deal. They get to be part of a community and to feel they have secret knowledge and experiences that others do not. Feeling lucky and priviledged is one of the keys to happiness. They get a break from loneliness when they think there is a being who is with them and listening to them all the time. They feel cared for as a child longs for its parent. Sure, depending on the version they get a bunch of ignorant ideas that hinder science and may make their own turn on them. But to claim it's just a game about hope for eternal life is to misunderstand the huge human significance of religion as it has been with humans for thousands of years.

          August 16, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
        • scallywag

          Ancient Egypt was inhabited by mummies and they all wrote in hydraulics. They lived in the Sarah Dessert and travelled by Camel. The climate of the Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
    • laststonecarver

      @bostontola,
      except that there was no post below that does condone it –
      David actually wrote:
      Whether folly, an act of faith or an act of desperation, those traveling to Lourdes are suffering human beings hoping to better their condition. Whatever any of us believes about Lourdes, healing, God and religion, to make fun of and to disrespect suffering people is disgraceful! –

      August 22, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
      • laststonecarver

        It would be equivalent to making fun of Aids/Hiv patients, or those with MS, MD, Downs Syndrome, etc., who may or may not be religiously affiliated –
        And you may be of the belief, that that is disgusting –

        August 22, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
  15. David Wallenstein

    How sad that so many posters on this site are mocking, criticizing and condemning those making a pilgrimage via a "white train" to Lourdes hoping for healing of an illness! Whether folly, an act of faith or an act of desperation, those traveling to Lourdes are suffering human beings hoping to better their condition. Whatever any of us believes about Lourdes, healing, God and religion, to make fun of and to disrespect suffering people is disgraceful!

    August 16, 2013 at 3:17 am |
    • laststonecarver

      @David,
      It is sad – and displays a lack of compa-ssion –
      Carrying hate is a worthless venture, and some are extremely hateful of the religious –
      Many of the hateful, didn't even read the story above, but are insensed at how they have been persecuted by some religious ent-ity at some point in their existence, and so their best plan is to retaliate, by anonymously demeaning those who in any way resemble those religious foibles –
      Although I am not religious, I perceive, as you have expressed, the dire situation of those who are making that pilgrimage –
      You have expressed yourself as a person of self integrity – I respect that –
      Atheism and Religion are both beliefs – one group believes in a god, and one group believes there are no gods –
      Some folks are of the mindset that their belief should dictate law – those who are persecuted by those laws are affronted –
      Their anger spills onto the pages of these belief blogs – Some have become so angered, that hate has began to grow in their hearts –
      Hate is a great load to carry – it is blinding, it destroys perception –

      August 16, 2013 at 7:23 am |
      • Rundvelt

        > It is sad – and displays a lack of compa-ssion

        I agree. However I'd say that many people represent comments critical of religion as "harming the people going there", which isn't valid either. Hope is a great thing to have, but in my perspective, having false hope is worse then having no hope.

        > Carrying hate is a worthless venture, and some are extremely hateful of the religious –

        I'm hateful towards certain religious people. The ones for example who feel their beliefs should affect others. Trying to ban the use of condoms, preventing gay people from being married, etc. I believe the real reason behind these objections by the religious is because when it happens and they see everything is fine, it'll be a blow to their faith and may get them to question what they believe in. And they can't have that.

        > Many of the hateful, didn't even read the story above, but are insensed at how they have been persecuted by some religious ent-ity at some point in their existence, and so their best plan is to retaliate, by anonymously demeaning those who in any way resemble those religious foibles –

        I think this isn't the case for most people on here actually. I think that they are resentful of the time they lost and how they were treated, but in general are looking to prevent the same harm to others. My religious upbringing was great and I really loved it (considered going to become a priest even), but then I thought about my faith and questioned why I believed what I did. It freed my mind. It allows me to think rationally about things and I'm better because of it. My goal here is to try and have other people wake up.

        > Although I am not religious, I perceive, as you have expressed, the dire situation of those who are making that pilgrimage –

        Dire situations can make people do crazy things. Grasp at straws. It's sad to see people flailing and it's even sadder to see them turn to things like miracles, homeopathy or natural remedies to try and assist them. But all in all, that's for the person to decide and hopefully they make the right choice.

        You have expressed yourself as a person of self integrity – I respect that –

        > Atheism and Religion are both beliefs – one group believes in a god, and one group believes there are no gods –

        Ok, there's a couple of things wrong here. Firstly, atheism itself isn't a belief structure. It's a lack of belief. Gnosticism, namely knowing properties about said God is where belief comes in, and of course theism.

        I'm an agnostic atheist, meaning that my position is that I don't know anything about any Gods, so I do not believe in any Gods. There's agnostic theists, those being people who believe in some sort of greater power. There's also gnostic theists which is a belief.

        This brings us to gnostic atheists. And while I wouldn't say it's a belief per se, it's awfully close. Or rather, closer then agnostic atheism is (as AA has no belief at all). I'd tend to say that gnostic atheism is a conclusion based on available evidence. That is to say, everything we've seen in the world points away from the claims made by holy books. For example, there's no observations of demons, theres no recorded miracles, prophecy hasn't ever really worked, etc.

        As such, I don't believe it's a belief in the same way a theist believes. And I don't think it's a fair comparison.

        > Some folks are of the mindset that their belief should dictate law – those who are persecuted by those laws are affronted –

        Like Christians and Muslims, etc.

        > Their anger spills onto the pages of these belief blogs – Some have become so angered, that hate has began to grow in their hearts –

        Yep.

        > Hate is a great load to carry – it is blinding, it destroys perception –

        Any emotion destroys perception. Love can destroy perception. A mothers love for her son can blind her to the crimes her son has comitted. Hate can cause someone to amplify their viewpoint of the wrong someone has comitted too.

        Just my thoughts.

        August 16, 2013 at 9:47 am |
      • tallulah13

        Atheism is not a belief. Indeed, it is a lack of belief: In all gods. Please try to understand that. When you post things so patently false as "atheism is a belief" it's very difficult to take your other statements seriously.

        August 16, 2013 at 9:54 am |
        • Camus's Sisyphus

          When people come on here and treat their non-belief in a manner that is like those of a faith, then there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.
          So when you have evangelical atheists coming on here and spouting off how they are correct and everyone else is wrong, sorry but they are acting like a fundie.
          If they don't want to be compared to those that are religious, then they shouldn't act like them.

          August 16, 2013 at 10:18 am |
        • laststonecarver

          @tallulah, Rundvelt, Camus
          belief has multiple connotations – here are a couple
          1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
          – so you are saying that you do not have an opinion or conviction, that there are no gods?
          2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
          – so you don;t even consider there are no gods –
          How is the statement that atheists don't believe in god blatantly false?

          @Camus,
          evangelical atheists coming on here and spouting off how they are correct and everyone else is wrong
          – really? as exempliflied by....

          @Rundvelt,
          my position is that I don't know anything about any Gods, so I do not believe in any Gods –
          – you don't believe in any Gods,

          Hate is baggage, regardlesss of reasoning –
          – like saying it is okay to be racist because....
          I understand that some religious folks are corrupt and/or misguided – but instead of hating those of religion, who abused me or others, I decided to learn from that experience, and not be contained by their mindset –

          How can any religious person understand what atheism is, if they have not been made aware, or they are not allowed to be made aware, as you and I have? –

          We are not so different, and I appreciate your candor –
          Whether atheist or religious, we are all looking at the same picture, and we have an opinion about what we see –
          That picture is of Life –
          Will anything hateful that you will ever say, effect the change you would want? –

          August 16, 2013 at 11:40 am |
        • Rundvelt

          > When people come on here and treat their non-belief in a manner that is like those of a faith, then there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.

          You're right. Where you'd be wrong is if you suggest that atheists being vocal is of the same vein as theists being vocal.

          > So when you have evangelical atheists coming on here and spouting off how they are correct and everyone else is wrong, sorry but they are acting like a fundie.

          I'd agree just so long as you're aware that just because two sides argue thier position strongly does not mean that the core of the arguments are the same.

          > If they don't want to be compared to those that are religious, then they shouldn't act like them.

          That's a bit silly. I mean, the KKK has rallies. Human rights organizations have rallies. Should human rights people avoid rallies if they don't want to be called KKK members?

          Your problem is that you're picking an arbitrary item, namely, the fact that two sides are vocal to draw similarites between them. That's not fair and it's not logical.

          August 16, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
        • hharri

          You are a devout believer, bird brain. Your religion is nasty. It abhors everything other than the gods you exalt. And you exalt your gods of hate and no gods, make no mistake. You worship them, bucko. They dominate your every thought. You and your congregation all sound exactly the same, all are bitter, emotionally damaged, immature, faux intellectual scholars rejected by true scholars of every kind. You have a voracious desire to barf your thoughts on anyone willing to listen. But, you haven't converted anyone. You are truly demented and everyone knows it but you!

          So, please respond with more brilliant proof that you have no gods! Let,s see how many of your ilk will say exactly the sane garbage you always say. GO!

          August 20, 2013 at 6:57 am |
    • tallulah13

      I would never make fun of desperate, ill people. If I have scorn, it's for those who profit from empty hope.

      August 16, 2013 at 9:38 am |
      • hharri

        You are my moral guide

        August 20, 2013 at 6:48 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Disagreeing with supersti.tious beliefs and being critical of those who use such thinking is not hate.

      August 16, 2013 at 10:37 am |
      • Bill Deacon

        You mean like when some people disagree with same seex marriage?

        August 16, 2013 at 10:51 am |
        • Ian

          You mean like you are trying to push an agenda?

          August 16, 2013 at 10:54 am |
        • ME II

          How exactly is same s.ex marriage as supersti.tion?

          August 16, 2013 at 11:11 am |
        • ME II

          as -> a

          August 16, 2013 at 11:11 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Yes Bill, exactly. I know you don't agree with same se.x marriage. I don't think you hate people who are gay and want to get married. I think it is good to discuss why people should have equal rights under the law. In doing so I have been able to understand that the opposition to gay marriage are not rational and/or based on religion. Either way you are wrong to think the gov't should give certian citizen's rights and deny those same rights to others. Discussion is good.

        August 16, 2013 at 10:59 am |
        • laststonecarver

          @Blessed,
          Discussion is Great –

          August 16, 2013 at 11:46 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          You didn't seem to think so yesterday.

          August 16, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
        • laststonecarver

          @Blessed,
          You did not respond from yesterday –
          But I bet you got all giddy, when you posted the pretentious dou-che canoe fluff –
          how about:
          What have you ever done to stop religious fraud and supersti-tion? –
          Or how have you begun to stop parents from not providing medical care, due to their religious belief? –

          August 16, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          You made a post equating cirtical oppostion of this shrine and the supersti.tious beliefs that go with it to "hate" and seemed to imply that nobody was getting hurt so just leave the discussion alone. I pointed out, bluntly, that our beliefs inform our actions and beliefs have real consequences and do not exist independent from our shared reality in doing so I used the term 'vacuum'. You then made a snarky comment about emptying your 'vacuum cleaner' and therefore had "no idea what I was talking about". My post directly addressed your point. Your response sidestepped my point and did nothing to further the discussion. Hence you are a pretentious dou.che canoe.

          -What have you ever done to stop religious fraud and supersti-tion? –

          My objective is not to stop religious fraud and supersti.tion. I don't think it will ever be stopped...unfortunately. I do attempt to get people to rationally justify their beliefs and call out faulty BS such as yours when I see it. If you don't agree with a point I make...fine....state you case. Making some etherial argument that we are all but actors on stage in a play and therefore we should all just 'agree to disagree', once again, does nothing to further the discussion.

          -Or how have you begun to stop parents from not providing medical care, due to their religious belief? –

          I support laws and lawmakers that do not let parents off the hook for negelcting the health of their dependents on religious grounds.

          August 16, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
        • laststonecarver

          @Blessed,
          Reading is fundamental –
          Please reread, and re-evaluate –
          Who mentioned critical oposition of the Lourdes site? –
          That would be you –

          August 16, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • laststonecarver

          @Blessed,
          next week –

          August 16, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Who mentioned critical oposition of the Lourdes site? That would be you"-

          Yes I mentioned it, as a matter of fact I bluntly attacked it as harmful. But you seem to be the one with reading issues. What I said was you are EQUATING oppostion of superst.tion TO hate. Yes I oppose it, it is my opinion it should be opposed. It is your opinion that 'opposing supersti.tion' somehow also means one lacks compassion, which for some reason you never address even though you have been called out on it multiple times.

          BTW...stating I have "opened up my mind for you to walk into" is yet another statment a dou.che canoe would make. And yes I either made that term up or I copied it...would there be another option?

          August 16, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
        • laststonecarver

          @Blessed,
          Your words describe your mind – Good luck, you'll need it –

          August 20, 2013 at 6:45 am |
      • hharri

        Cheeseie, you are god!

        August 20, 2013 at 6:59 am |
    • ME II

      @David Wallenstein,
      While I don't condone mocking, would there be any compassion in letting the sick drink snake oil or elixirs containing radium, that do little good and possibly great harm?

      August 16, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Athy

      David, when is telling the truth disgraceful?

      August 16, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • scallywag

      Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

      August 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
  16. mzh

    Dear Sue, Richard, ME II, Athy and Tarzan,

    I am glad that you asked me this question and I would be happy to answer with the will of Allah the Almighty and I thank HIM for this opportunity.

    I feel like I am being attacked by you guys… but its okay… I can be patient with the will of The Lord Almighty 

    Before I say anything about the verse you guys are having concern of, I would like share something about the revelation of the Quran. It was not written in one sitting with dreams and visions like NT was written and so the OT.

    August 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm |
    • mzh

      Prior to Islam which is 610, these people were doing all the dirty things that human could ever do, Muhammad (pbuh) was known to Meccans as the most trust worthy, they would trust him more then they trust themselves. when the first revelation came he was 40 years old, then he went to a Jews Rabbi who was his wife’s uncle. He the uncle (Jews Rabbi) said that I wish I will be alive to see when your people will drive you away from your own land as Children of Israel did to Moses. Anyways, from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3, people started accepting Islam as their religion. And this was not acceptable to the elite group of the Meccans and they have done all dirty things that they could do to stop this preaching, they even killed after tortured by being hunger and beaten in the desert heat. So prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not do anything from himself. He never wanted to engage in any battle unless it was from the Idolater’s side and then the verse came through angel Gabriel (pbuh) with the permission of being engaged in battle.
      So the verse you guys are concerning was revealed during one of the battles that Idol worshippers started and Muslim had to fight back.

      I will look for the detail how and when this verse was revealed. Also please know that there are verses abrogated with new verses. Like the law of the prohibition of alcohol first came as ‘do not approach prayer while you are drunk’ and then later it came as ‘alcohol is totally prohibited’, so the previous one got abrogated with the new one. And no one complained about it… its like you hear and you obey as it is a command in Quran for Muslim.

      For now I like to share this following verse for you guys:
      “If anyone kills a soul, it would be as if he has killed all of mankind: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he has saved all of humanity.”
      -Quran 5:32

      Again thanks a lot and I hope you guys feel batter…

      Peace be upon all of you…

      August 15, 2013 at 11:33 pm |
    • mzh

      Thanks God Almighty that finally I was able to post it... it was keep filtering... one paragraph that got filtered... and it was about:

      The entire Quran revealed in total of 23 years, sometimes few verses and something entire chapter like the chapter of prophet Joseph...

      August 15, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Sue

      I'm going to ignore your post until you put it in as a reply in the obvious correct place. No top posting, please.

      August 16, 2013 at 12:48 am |
      • mzh

        My apologies Sue... I thought put it on the current page so that you do not miss it... sure will do that going forward. Thank you...

        August 16, 2013 at 11:03 am |
    • Ed

      You tell 'em. Top posting is for wimps.

      August 16, 2013 at 12:49 am |
      • Dwayne

        Religion is for cowards.

        August 16, 2013 at 12:50 am |
        • mzh

          In my opinion – you also follow a religion

          One of the definition of religion is to follow a list of things that you do and you do not do... some they follow from their own faiths and for you, you make up your own rather following others... so in this case, you are also a religious person...

          August 16, 2013 at 11:35 am |
        • G to the T

          MZH – then your definition of "religion" is so broad as to be useless in any meaningful discussion.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:45 am |
        • Dwayne

          mzh, redefining a term such as you just did, to fit your opinion, is another sign of cowardice. It is plainly obvious that lack of an entity is not an instance ot that entity. Or would you like to redefine zero to be one while you are at it...

          Very sneaky of you. You are despicable.

          August 16, 2013 at 11:51 am |
        • mzh

          My apologies if my posting made you inconvenient in any ways. I thought to clear what I meant by the definition I posted and it is not the only definition but it is one of the definitions… as it could vary person to person based on the background of the person.

          Here is what I meant to say:
          For me – I follow the list from the book that I follow which is obvious The Quran
          For someone for example Jew – s/he follows whatever is their in OT
          For someone for example Christian – s/he follows whatever is their in OT/NT
          For someone for example Hindu – s/he follows whatever is their in the book of Hinduism
          For someone for example Buddhist – follows whatever is the teaching of their faith

          Now for you perhaps (I could be wrong) – you do not follow any of the books but you follow your own listings…

          Please correct me if I didn’t get it correct… I understand that we are different person and not everyone’s brain are connected or linked to each other and everyone has different way of thinking, understanding or interpretating…

          Peace!!!

          August 16, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
        • Rundvelt

          Religions have rules and things you need to believe. This is called dogma.
          Atheism has no dogma.
          Therefore atheism is not a religion.

          Thanks!

          August 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
        • scallywag

          Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

          August 16, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • ME II

      @msh,
      Sorry, but what is this in reply to?

      August 16, 2013 at 11:00 am |
      • mzh

        Please forgive me... I do not think I understood your question...

        August 16, 2013 at 11:04 am |
      • ME II

        @msh,
        You reference a question and possibly a verse from the Quran, but I don't know to what question or verse you are referring.

        August 16, 2013 at 11:13 am |
        • mzh

          You had a question on a verse 8:12...

          August 16, 2013 at 11:25 am |
  17. Arthur Bryant

    I'd been blinded in my third eye since Kenny Gillian poked a stick in it in 3rd grade. People mocked me for years. "Nyah nyah nya nyah nyah! Arthur's only got two eyes!" I was ashamed. Awash in guilt, as if it was somehow my fault. I was desperate; near suicide. But then......Father Flatulence at Our Lady of the Presumptuous Assumption said there was a school trip .... to Lourdes. So what if I had to ah....do him a favor and polish his Key to Heaven to get there.....I was desperate! So I went and.......I'm still blind in my third eye. What a rip off.

    August 15, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
  18. skytag

    I think it's just sad to think of people with disabilities spending their money and enduring a 35-hour train ride each way because of some old myths and legends. And what kind of God would only heal the disabled who could afford train tickets and were healthy enough to make this trip?

    How did the human race become so gullible?

    August 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • Sue

      Skytag, re "how did we become so gullible", that's an interesting question. I think some researchers have been looking at that recently, and concluded that from an evolutionary standpoint, jumping to conclusions has had its survival advantages.

      For example, jumping out of the way quickly at just the hint of a sound of a big predator rather than waiting whether correct that a predator is present or not, probably saved a lot of people overall, and going with correlations whether or not there is a causal connection established or time to confirm same, can be not a bad choice when it's all you have to go on.

      So, we've evolved to have or retain that "jumping to conclusions" characteristic, which has gullibility as one ramification. Unfortunately, it has also lead to religion, and other supersti.tions, and to the ease of success of televangelists and all manner of other con artists.

      August 15, 2013 at 8:54 pm |
      • skytag

        I've heard that theory and it makes sense in some cases, but I'm not sure I see how it applies to religion unless it's the "just in case" aspect of it.

        August 16, 2013 at 12:08 am |
    • Sara

      I imagine most people are making this trip with family members with whom they have a shared adventure and bonding experience, but I may be wrong about that since I don't have data. Even for those who travel alone it may be a way to meet people...an excuse to travel and have an adventure.

      August 16, 2013 at 12:22 am |
      • laststonecarver

        @Sara,
        There is a ritual in the Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, which describes the Carrying of the Eye –
        You carry that Eye – it is perception –
        your words describe your mind –

        August 16, 2013 at 9:09 am |
  19. Reality

    Dear Riders of the White Train,

    You have been conned. Demand your money back.

    Jesus is still a-mouldering in the ground as are his mother and father.

    August 15, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • Athy

      If he even existed.

      August 15, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
    • My Dog is a jealous Dog

      Shut up you stupid little troll.

      August 15, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
      • skytag

        Uh oh. Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

        August 15, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
      • scallywag

        Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.

        August 16, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • Reality

      Only for the new members of this blog:

      Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection Con/

      From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15: 14, Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

      Even now Catholic/Christian professors (e.g.Notre Dame, Catholic U, Georgetown) of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

      To wit;

      From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

      "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
      Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

      Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

      Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

      The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

      Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

      The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

      "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
      http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

      The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

      With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

      An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

      p.4

      "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

      p.168. by Ted Peters:

      Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

      So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

      August 16, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
  20. A Conversation

    The issue of sarcasm aside–have some credibility–just admit sue is a kiss as.s.

    August 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • Dwayne

      Take a time out and let your temper subside. Say some prayers, whatever works for you. Seriously.

      August 15, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.